Mike Marcus (Manager, Producer, & Former Studio Head) on Building Hollywood Networks and Creating Hit Films

In this episode of Don't Kill the Messenger, host Kevin Goetz interviews Mike Marcus, whose impressive 57-year career spans from agency mailroom to MGM Pictures president to management company founder. In his early career as an agent, Marcus built an impressive client roster including Robin Williams, John Landis, and Sidney Pollack before transitioning into a top studio executive role and eventually launching the management division at Echo Lake Entertainment. Marcus was instrumental in bringing iconic films like The Fisher King, Trading Places, An American Werewolf in London, Get Shorty, and Stargate to the screen.

The Agency Mailroom: Hollywood's Ultimate Training Ground (01:37)
Marcus explains why starting in an agency mailroom provides unparalleled industry education through networking and on-the-job training.

Building a Client Roster and Packaging Films (07:07)
Marcus discusses how he excelled at assembling creative teams for projects like Fisher King with Robin Williams and Terry Gilliam.

The CAA Years and Client Relationships (10:48)
After launching Cunningham Levy Marcus, he moved to CAA where he represented major talents, building the relationships that defined his career.

Transition to Studio Executive at MGM (14:21)
Marcus details his surprising move from agent to MGM Pictures president in 1993, where his packaging skills lent themselves to studio leadership..

The Value of Research and Testing (22:50)
Looking back on projects like Stargate, Marcus reflects on his evolution from a "gut instinct" filmmaker to appreciating audience research.

The Streaming Revolution and Theater Experience (27:44)
Marcus shares his perspective on streaming's impact on theatrical moviegoing, believing theaters will always exist while acknowledging how streaming has changed the viewing landscape.

Building Echo Lake Entertainment (31:19)
Now approaching 20 years at Echo Lake, Marcus discusses what makes a great representative and reveals the fulfillment that came with building the company.

Industry Outlook and Future Projects (33:11)
Marcus shares his optimism about independent film's potential resurgence, concerns about decreasing compensation for talent, and shares his current projects.

Throughout the conversation, Marcus demonstrates how his skill for recognizing creative talent and building relationships helped create classic films through the years. His journey from agency mailroom to industry leader offers essential insights for anyone interested in the inner workings of Hollywood.

If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review or connect on social media. We look forward to bringing you more revelations from behind the scenes next time on Don't Kill the Messenger!

 Host: Kevin Goetz

Guest: Mike Marcus

Producer: Kari Campano

Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano

Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)

For more information about Mike Marcus:

IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0546152/

Echo Lake Entertainment: https://www.echolakeentertainment.com/

For more information about Kevin Goetz:

Website: www.KevinGoetz360.com

Audienceology Book: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Audience-ology/Kevin-Goetz/9781982186678

Facebook, Twitter, Instagram: @KevinGoetz360

Linked In @Kevin Goetz

Screen Engine/ASI Website: www.ScreenEngineASI.com

Transcript

Podcast: Don't Kill the Messenger with Movie Research Expert Kevin Goetz
Guest: Manager, Producer, and Former Studio Head, Mike Marcus

Interview Transcript:

Announcer (00:03):

From script to screen, every film is brought to life by visionary creatives and executives, all sharing one mission – to captivate the audience. Hosted by award-winning movie strategist, Kevin Goetz, our podcast, Don't Kill The Messenger, offers a filmmaking masterclass through intimate conversations with Hollywood's most influential voices. And now, your host, Kevin Goetz.

Kevin Goetz (00:30):

Time and time again, I have heard the following advice from my guests – for people who wanna work in the industry, no matter what you think you want to do, get a job at a big agency as an assistant. Listeners, I have no doubt that my guest today agrees. Mike Marcus started in an agency mail room in the late sixties and quickly rose to represent Hollywood's biggest names, including Robin Williams, Sidney Pollack, John Landis, and Mel Brooks. He helped bring films like The Fisher King, Trading Places, and American Werewolf in London to life before leading MGM pictures as president and COO where he oversaw films including Get Shorty, Stargate, and Species. Today, he continues to shape the industry as a manager and producer at Echo Lake Entertainment. Mike, thank you so much for joining me here today.

Mike Marcus (01:23):

My pleasure.

Kevin Goetz (01:24):

Man, we have been through it. I wanted to start with the mail room because you have been in your teaching and so forth, a proponent of that path, that career trajectory. Why is that so important?

*Mike Marcus (01:37):

Well, the mail room and the agency gives you a background in what the inner working of business is like 'cause all of the teaching, all of the classes that you take, nothing prepares you as much as on the job training. And you're sitting there at an agency and you're hearing things about you got this to do and this person's involved with this person working with them. Networking is the most important thing that comes out of working at a big agency, working in a mail room. And whether it's a big agency or a big management company or even a big production company.

Kevin Goetz (02:12):

It's kind of the epicenter, isn't it?

Mike Marcus (02:14):

Absolutely. And you build a network of people. I still deal with people. Mike Medavoy, a guy that we were just talking before we went on to the podcast. Medavoy was an agent, most people don't remember. And I was in the mail room and I was about to be promoted to be an agent and he's one of our associates. And he told me that he was representing this director. And I said, oh, I didn't know agents represented directors <laugh>. I mean, you know, well I was pretty dumb in those days, but that's beside the point.

Kevin Goetz (02:45):

Where'd you come from?

Mike Marcus (02:46):

Pittsburgh.

Kevin Goetz (02:47):

Oh, that explains it. <laugh>. Well, exactly.

Mike Marcus (02:50):

<laugh>. But also I had no interest or no knowledge of getting into the business. A buddy of mine convinced me to move to California with him.

Kevin Goetz (02:58):

Who was it?

Mike Marcus (02:59):

A guy named Jack Oringer who died unfortunately during Covid. Oh. But he was my best friend.

Kevin Goetz (03:04):

What did he know about the business to suggest that you would be good at it?

Mike Marcus (03:08):

Kevin, he convinced me to move to California with him because I wanted him to move to Denver with because I had been in the service in Denver and I was getting out of the service and I said, I wanna move to Denver. And I said, move with me. And he said he can't. He just took a job in his uncle's insurance agency.

Kevin Goetz (03:23):

So it had nothing to do with our business at all.

Mike Marcus (03:25):

Nothing to do with the business. And I had offers from Northwest Mutual, another insurance company to be an adjuster. And I bumped into a guy who was an agent and he told me what he did. And I said, that sounds interesting. How do you do that? And he says, well, you can start in the mail room and you work your way up. And I said, well, okay, what do they pay? And it was $80 a week. And I said, I don't know if I could afford that. But then I thought about it and I thought, that sounds interesting. And I started interviewing at agencies.

Kevin Goetz (03:55):

Isn't it amazing how, and Oprah says this a lot about how moments can inform your entire life. Had that conversation never happened, I'm gonna believe that you would've found your way because you're so good at what you do. But isn't it crazy that that kind of alchemy exists?

Mike Marcus (04:16):

No question about it. I had no idea about it. One thing did color the decision because my last term in school, I graduated from Penn State and I'm still very involved. I'm on two boards at Penn State. But my last term, I took a course called The History and the Appreciation of the Motion Picture. Who knew that that would be prescient? Who knew that that would be something that I would look back on and say, oh, you know, film. That's kind of interesting.

Kevin Goetz (04:44):

Did you love it then when you were in that course?

Mike Marcus (04:46):

In the class I live, I thought it was really interesting 'cause I was not a movie guy. And then I came out of that class being a movie guy.

Kevin Goetz (04:52):

Do you remember a movie that had particular relevance for you early on?

Mike Marcus (04:56):

Yeah, during that class and my paper in that class was done on The Third Man.

Kevin Goetz (05:01):

Wow. Good choice.

Mike Marcus (05:03):

Still one of my favorite movies.

Kevin Goetz (05:04):

How about as a boy?

Mike Marcus (05:06):

There were a few. I got to see Ben Hur, The 10 Commandments, Artie Murphy. There was a couple of movies that he did.

Kevin Goetz (05:14):

So, but bigger epic movies seemed to leave an impression on you.

Mike Marcus (05:17):

Yeah, I don't know that I was that conscious of it.

Kevin Goetz (05:20):

What did you like as a kid? What formed the man that you are today?

Mike Marcus (05:24):

It's good question. I don't think anybody has ever asked me that. I like sports. I'm a big Pittsburgh Steeler fan and I was a fan of the Pittsburgh Hornets, the hockey team.

Kevin Goetz (05:36):

Going back to your agency days, who were your early mentors who really had an influence on again, who you became?

Mike Marcus (05:46):

Medavoy and a literary agent by the name of Mike Wise, they taught me that writers and directors were represented by agents and that was an eyeopener to me. And I just gravitated towards much more than actors, which is where I started. And the other one was a guy by the name of Mickey Freiberg, who was a young agent who when I was promoted to agent after being an assistant for about four months. And this is way faster than I should have been promoted. And I didn't really know what I was doing and he kind of took me under his wing and I was really lucky. About five years later, six years later, I was able to hire him at Kohner Levy Marcuss.

Kevin Goetz (06:30):

That's when you became a partner. So you moved from which agency initially?

Mike Marcus (06:35):

Initially it was a place called General Artist Corporation, GAC, which merged with CMA and took the name CMA Creative Management. And after I left, it became ICM. CMA was started by two ex-MCA agents, David Begelman and Freddie Fields.

Kevin Goetz (06:54):

Well that's a whole nother topic, <laugh> 'cause there's a lot, lot of Hollywood lore surrounding the two of those guys.

Mike Marcus (07:00):

Mr. Begelman, especially.

Kevin Goetz (07:02):

Especially. I wanna ask you, who was your first significant signing?

Mike Marcus (07:07):

My first significant sign that stayed with me in help make my career was Landis.

Kevin Goetz (07:13):

Wow.

Mike Marcus (07:13):

Because it was about 1973, but those days it was called Bart Leevy and Associates. And I was able to sign John. All he had done was a little movie called Schlock, and he actually played the Schlock Monster in it. <laugh>. He made it for $60,000. And I thought he was really talented, but more than being talented, I thought his energy was great and I thought he was really special. And then we put him into Kentucky Fried Movie and the rest was history.

Kevin Goetz (07:41):

George Folsey is a mutual friend of ours who just passed away. And in fact, you called me to tell me the news. I'm so blessed and honored that I got to interview George on this program before he died. And it was, I think, cathartic in a way for him because he told me so. But it was great to memorialize some of those stories that really cemented his relationship with John Landis, you know?

Mike Marcus (08:07):

Oh yeah. They went on to be partners as an editor and a producer for many, many movies.

Kevin Goetz (08:12):

What was packaging movies like in those days? That was an early practice, wasn't it?

*Mike Marcus (08:18):

Yeah. One of the things that interested me the most about writers and directors was that you start films with writers and directors. For the most part, actors come in later and I like the idea of putting things together. So I started very early on introducing my writers to my directors and directors to actors. And I packaged a lot of movies over the years.

Kevin Goetz (08:40):

So you would actually come in to Paramount with the writer, the director, probably not the star at that point. And the producer.

Mike Marcus (08:48):

It depended. Bill Forsyth was a client of mine who directed Local Hero, wrote Local Hero, and a number of other movies.

Kevin Goetz (08:54):

I that movie so much.

Mike Marcus (08:57):

A lot of people do. Bill wrote a script and I read it and I thought Robin Williams would be great in it. I called Robin after I talked to Bill, I said,

Kevin Goetz (09:09):

You represented Robin?

Mike Marcus (09:11):

I represented Robin for six years before I left to go to MGM. I was representing his managers, Morra, Brezner, Steinberg and Tenenbaum. Sure. And the guys were representing Robin as managers and they put him into Good Morning Vietnam.  I signed him off of Good Morning Vietnam.

Kevin Goetz (09:32):

I'm sure everyone wanted him.

Mike Marcus (09:34):

We were lucky. Ovitz helped me and another one of my associates, Mike Menchel. So the three of us were his team.

Kevin Goetz (09:40):

He's a terrific guy. Mike Menchel.

Mike Marcus (09:42):

Yeah. Robin called us the Dolby Mikes <laugh>. So I gave the script to Forsyth, he loved the idea of Robin. I gave it to Robin. Robin said, Mike, I'll do it. I said, well, you haven't written Being Human script yet. He said, I was offered Local Hero and I didn't do it, so I will definitely do this. I then set about trying to put it together. I brought in David Putnam to produce it, who had produced a lot of Forsyth movies.

Kevin Goetz (10:11):

Oh, didn't he ultimately go to Columbia and do Chariots of Fire?

Mike Marcus (10:16):

Yeah, I think actually Putnam had already gone to Columbia and I was back as a producer, if I remember correctly. So I gave it to Putnam and then he took it to Warner Brothers as a fully packaged movie ready to go. And I got Bill more money for his writing and directing on that than the budgets of some of his early films. Unfortunately, it didn't turn out very well. Warners didn't do anything with it.

Kevin Goetz (10:40):

Very interesting. Let me ask you about the transition from your name on the door to going to CAA.

Mike Marcus (10:48):

Mike Levy was my partner at Kohner Levy Marcuss.

Kevin Goetz (10:51):

Right.

Mike Marcus (10:52):

We decided because this company, CAA was beating us all the time and signing new clients that we had to get into the 21st century. So we went to Paul Kohner, who was our partner, and we said, look, we've gotta hire business affairs people. We've gotta get into new offices 'cause we had a little shop on Main Street and he said, we gotta build. And he said, what build? I'm 85 years old.

Kevin Goetz (11:15):

<laugh> A legend. Paul Kohner.

Mike Marcus (11:17):

Yeah.

Mike Marcus (11:18):

And it was wonderful. But Mike Levy and I started putting together, Levy Marcus, and Levy was hired by CBS to be the chairman of the CBS Theatrical Films group in early 1981. And all of a sudden I was a free ball and every agency was coming after me and I ended up at CAA from 81 to 93.

Kevin Goetz (11:39):

So CAA was really where you really spread your wings.

Mike Marcus (11:43):

Exactly. Although I did come to CAA with John Landis, David Cronenberg, a number of very important clients,

Kevin Goetz (11:52):

Not too shabby.

Mike Marcus (11:53):

Yeah. Richard Marquand, who did the third of the original Star Wars movies, Return of the Jedi. Irv Kershner, who directed the second one.

Kevin Goetz (12:01):

Empire Strikes Back. Yeah.

Mike Marcus (12:03):

And Eric Bercovici, who wrote the original Shogun. So I came in with a decent client list, but I built it from there. Obviously.

Kevin Goetz (12:12):

You preferred to represent directors and writers from that point as well. 

Mike Marcus (12:18):

Oh yeah, absolutely. 

Kevin Goetz (12:19):

You were always more literary.

Mike Marcus (12:20):

It really was. And at that point, six years into my term at CAA, because of my representing the producers of Good Morning Vietnam, I was introduced to their client, Robin and I was able to bring him into the company.

Kevin Goetz (12:34):

Wow.

Mike Marcus (12:34):

And eventually I ended up, for the last two years of my term, at CAA, I was involved with Tom Cruise.

Kevin Goetz (12:40):

With Paula, who was a guest on this program.

Mike Marcus (12:43):

Paula left to join him in the business that they put together. There was a guy that was given the opportunity to represent Tom, and he didn't work out. So I took over for the last two years.

Kevin Goetz (12:57):

And Rick was there too. But Rick never handled Tom right?

Mike Marcus (13:01):

Not that I'm aware of.

Kevin Goetz (13:02):

By the way, Paul Kohner, what's his daughter? Susan Kohner from Imitation of Life.

Mike Marcus (13:07):

Not only that, but his grandchildren were Paul and Chris Weitz. The Weitz brothers. No way. Yeah. So I've known the Weitz brothers since they were little kids running around the office.

Kevin Goetz (13:19):

Oh my God. I love the connective tissue here.

Mike Marcus (13:23):

But what I said at the beginning, networking. Networking. I can still pick up the phone and call Chris and Paul and they always pick up the phone for me.

Kevin Goetz (13:31):

Of course.

Mike Marcus (13:31):

It's building relationships. It's a people business.

Kevin Goetz (13:34):

100%. Did you know that from the start? Were you that way growing up as a young guy? Were you always like a charmer? Were you a schmoozer? Were you a bullshitter? What?

Mike Marcus (13:45):

I was probably a schmoozer.

Kevin Goetz (13:46):

Yeah. I was gonna ask you what your superpower is.

Mike Marcus (13:49):

Talking.

Kevin Goetz (13:50):

Talking <laugh>, talking about smart things.

Mike Marcus (13:56):

Hopefully, although I can tell a good joke too.

Kevin Goetz (14:00):

But you were able to seduce people to have them trust you to manage their careers. That's a tall order, especially with so much competition around. So moving on to the story about the transition from agenting to getting that call to run MGM. How did that come about?

*Mike Marcus (14:21):

I got a call from Ovitz's office to coming come in and see him. I walk in and Mike gives me a hand signal to wait. And I'm standing there in front of his desk 'cause he's on a call. He hangs up the phone and I go to pull the chair out. And he said, no, no. Walk over with me to the seating area. Well, it was a long thin office. And as I'm walking over to the seating area, I'm going through every client in the back of my mind to make sure there's something that I'm not missing. Why would Mike wanna talk to me sitting down in his seating area and not just have a quick verbal conversation? But we sit down and he said, okay, listen, I've been talking to Frank Mancuso and Frank wants to talk to you about being the head of MGM. And I said, yeah, Mike, sure. What do you wanna talk to me about? And he said, no, I'm serious. And I said, come on Mike. And eventually he convinced me that Frank wanted to talk to me about it.

Kevin Goetz (15:16):

Why would Frank wanna talk to you about that as an agent? What was it about either you or Mike's recommending you for that job?

*Mike Marcus (15:26):

Two things. Number one, I was very good at building relationships with heads of studios, whether they were head of distribution, head of production, chairman. And I had courted Mancuso and I had gotten to know him and he had told me in one of my meetings, he says, you know, I don't like agents much, but you're okay. So number two, I was a packager. I put together a lot of movies over the years and you know, a lot of them are on the screen behind you, whether it's Dead Ringers or American Werewolf or Being Human, which we just talked about. And Fisher King, there were a lot of movies that I put together and it was known that I was a packager.

Kevin Goetz (16:08):

Ah, you knew how to put movies together and you knew how to galvanize people.

Mike Marcus (16:14):

Correct.

Kevin Goetz (16:15):

I'm trying to get into the superpower and crystallize it. By the end of this, this will be like a therapy session. You'll say, oh, I guess that's what I'm really great at <laugh>.

*Mike Marcus (16:25):

I'm good at schmoozing and putting people together.

Kevin Goetz (16:29):

Yeah. But you see the strength of the parts and bringing those parts together to create something. And that is a huge skill that not a lot of people possess. And you possess it.

*Mike Marcus (16:42):

It's remembering relationships. It's like when I put together Fisher King. Medavoy was doing Fisher King, and I read the script and I loved it. And I thought it would be great for Robin. And I gave it to him and I got him to read. And I said, did did you read it? He said, yeah, I read it. Well, what do you wanna do? He says, well, I'm, I'm not gonna commit to it. I said, well, why not? He said, well, there's no director. So Lynda Obst and Debra Hill and Menschel and I had a meeting about finding a director and the thought popped into my mind, okay, he just did a film with Terry Gilliam. Why not see if Terry would do it with him? So we went to Terry Gilliam, he read it, he loved it. I called Robin and I said, Robin, Terry Gilliam wants to do Fisher King. Robin said, okay, I'll do it. Simple as that.

Kevin Goetz (17:31):

Wow.

Mike Marcus (17:32):

Remembering that Robin loved working with Terry was the key. This is all documented in Lynda's book, Hello, I Lied.

Kevin Goetz (17:40):

Yeah. Lynda just passed away who we both had a very, very strong and close relationship with.

Mike Marcus (17:47):

Very sad.

Kevin Goetz (17:47):

And I miss her very much.

Mike Marcus (17:49):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (17:49):

I loved her.

Mike Marcus (17:50):

Her and Paula Weinstein. Big losses.

Kevin Goetz (17:52):

I know. I'm in her second book. I think I have like a half a chapter or something that she wrote. She revered research and what I did, and we really became quite close. So a call out to Lynda, if you were alive, my God, you'd be my guest in the middle of the night if you wanted to be <laugh>.

(18:10):

Mike, if you don't mind, we are gonna take a break, but when we come back, I really want to hear about the transition that you made from agenting to becoming an executive and how it changed putting projects together, if at all. We'll be back in a moment. Listeners, The Motion Picture Television Fund is a nonprofit charitable organization that supports working and retired members of the entertainment community. This wonderfully run organization offers assistance for living and aging with dignity and purpose in the areas of health and social services, including temporary financial assistance, case management, and residential living. And it has been a crucial lifeline to thousands during and beyond critical times that our industry continues to experience. To learn more, visit mptf.com. Please join me in helping others in our industry during times of need. There are so many ways to offer support and get involved. Thank you. We're back with Mike Marcus. Mike, going back to your start at MGM, were you nervous taking that job? Louis B. Mayer, man.

Mike Marcus (19:36):

Well, absolutely. Okay. So I finally was convinced by Ovitz that I should meet with Frank. I call my wife and she picks up the phone, where are you? I'm over at my friend's. Why? I said, well go home. Well, why should I go home? Because I need to talk to you. And she says about what? I said, don't, just go home.

Kevin Goetz (19:57):

I hope you said this is not bad <laugh>.

Mike Marcus (19:59):

I, I did. I said it was not bad.

Kevin Goetz (20:01):

Okay.

*Mike Marcus (20:02):

So, but by the time I drove home, I had convinced myself I wanted the job. I had never thought about being the head of a studio, but I had convinced myself, let's take a shot. And the thought process was a bit like, alright, how many people on the face of the Earth have ever run a movie studio? So I thought, okay, I've got a great career, but I've done everything I can do as an agent. There wasn't much left for me to do as an agent, so why not do that? And I was thrilled to do it. And I had a great meeting with Mancuso. We made the deal. I started in September of 93. And frankly,the thought that kept going through my mind was that what I did as an agent was what I would be doing as the head of a studio, putting movies together. So I really wasn't nervous. I didn't think about, oh my God, this is such pressure. I thought I gotta make some movies.

Kevin Goetz (21:03):

Who'd you hire right away?

Mike Marcus (21:04):

Greg Foster and David Ladd were there and I kept them. I ended up hiring Elizabeth Seldes, who coincidentally, and Mark Protosevich, and Mark wasn't a writer yet. So I hired Elizabeth and Mark and I saw them both at the Writer's Guild Awards the Saturday before this past Saturday where Elizabeth was nominated and, and Mark was nominated incredible and a great, great picture of the three of us together. And Elizabeth won a Writer’s Guild Award. So that was my team. And while I was there at MGM, Mark handed me a script called The Sell, and I bought it. I wasn't able to make it before I left. And they put it in turnaround and they got made by New Line.

Kevin Goetz (21:48):

What other movies did you do at MGM? You picked up Stargate, which was a big hit, wasn't it?

Mike Marcus (21:53):

Stargate was very successful. We had a lot of fights with the director about the edit.

Kevin Goetz (21:57):

That was Roland Emmerich and Dean Devlin. But they really saved that movie, didn't they?

Mike Marcus (22:02):

Absolutely. Because what happened was Joe Nimziki was one of our marketing guys who you must know very well. Of course. Roland was so pissed off at Joe, he named one of the bad guys in one of his movies.

Kevin Goetz (22:14):

Nimziki.

Mike Marcus (22:16):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (22:16):

I remember that. I cannot believe that I <laugh>. Oh God. But Joe was so right about it. Listen, leave it to the pros, man. You know, Tony Sella was just a guest on the show. And to let great creatives do what they do, we just lost another great call out to Chris Pula. These are amazing giants who really understood how to market.

Mike Marcus (22:39):

Yeah. And Jerry Rich worked with us. And Joe Nimziki. Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (22:42):

Fantastic. Let me ask you about the difficulties on Stargate, because we tested that movie.

Mike Marcus (22:50):

<laugh>. So was the next thing I was gonna say. Tell me. Initially the numbers were terrible.

Kevin Goetz (22:54):

Terrible.

Mike Marcus (22:55):

What came back was, none of this makes any sense.

Kevin Goetz (22:59):

Correct.

Mike Marcus (23:00):

And what they had done was Roland had the characters speaking Aramaic, I think it was, and it was all accurate. And we said, okay, we don't need subtitles that are accurate. We need subtitles that help get the story. So we rewrote, had them rewrite the subtitles, and then the next time it was tested, you did it. And it was perfect. It was great.

Kevin Goetz (23:21):

Well, also, if I recall, the other big change was this portal. They didn't know like where they were coming from or they created much clearer movie rules about the transport. 

Mike Marcus (23:32):

Right, right.

Kevin Goetz (23:33):

Through this portal. And anyway, it was a great story of listening to the audience and making changes based on that. What's your relationship to research, Mike? I've seen you at hundreds, low hundreds of screenings throughout your career. Tell me what you think about the audience, how you embrace research. To what degree?

Mike Marcus (23:54):

Well, it's been a learning process for me because back in the day when I first was putting together movies, I was a guy who was a fly-by-night guy. I would do everything by my stomach. I have learned that research helps.

Kevin Goetz (24:05):

How so?

*Mike Marcus (24:06):

Well, okay, so let's say you wanna buy a script. To get the script concept judged by research isn't a bad way to go. There's a lot of reasons why research is helpful in making a movie and in distributing movie and getting the focus groups that you lead or have led over the years have been, I think, instrumental in helping the filmmakers understand things. Now, the guy who directed The Brutalist would probably argue with me because he expects to get final cut of everything he does. But I still think it's a collaborative business and there's a lot of input.

Kevin Goetz (24:43):

Absolutely. As Tom Rothman likes to say, even if a filmmaker has final cut, final cut really belongs with the audience.

Mike Marcus (24:51):

Absolutely right. Absolutely right. So I'm very curious to see what the next film that this guy who did The Brutalist turns out to be.

Kevin Goetz (24:59):

Right? Yeah. He kind of got up in front of everyone at the, I think it was The Globes.

Mike Marcus (25:02):

Globes.

Kevin Goetz (25:03):

And said, listen, no one thought a three-hour and 40-minute movie could ever be seen. I actually thought the movie moved rather well. So I don't think he would've gotten that much crap for having a long movie. If the movie deserves to be long and epic, so be it.

Mike Marcus (25:19):

Sure.

*Kevin Goetz (25:19):

But the problem is, is some movies are way too indulgent. And also, that movie still has to make a lot of money to even make its small budget back. So it's challenging, you know, it's not an easy answer. You've seen the evolution of changes. I like to talk about television before your time. You know, we moved to television from radio, and then we moved from black and white to color, and then we've had several evolutions or revolutions. One of the biggest, of course, was the home entertainment movement where people thought it was the end of the movie business. But of course, more movies begot more movies, and yet the studios still controlled the messaging, always meaning you've got these three choices coming out, take it or leave it. The street date for this video is coming out here. Take it or leave it. You know, there were a lot of choices you could make if you went to a blockbuster, but it really fed the whole ecosystem.

(26:19):

Then we got into sort of smart TVs and the advent of cable proliferation. And again, lots and lots of choice available. And yet movies thrived because it was a very special experience then television and cable. But then the streaming disruption happened, and I contend that's when three things converged, cost, convenience, and choice, three Cs. And that is almost a disruptor that is irreparable. And I don't mean to say that movies are dead and streaming is the only thing that's going to exist, but clearly consumers in their lives had three elements to consider that had never been together at that level. The idea that you could spend $65 for four tickets to a movie for a family of four versus seven subscription services, cost convenience. You don't have to leave your home. Babysitter lines, people, disgusting floors and theaters and choice because of the amount of choices is unbelievable with the streamers. Where do you stand with this whole transition and how have you found your place in this new world order?

*Mike Marcus (27:44):

I've always felt that movies will always exist in theaters because at some point, mothers and fathers will wanna get outta the house away from the kids. At some point, the kids are gonna wanna get outta the house away from the parents. And movies are a logical place for them to go. So I think they're always gonna be, now admittedly, COVID kind of put a problem into the life of the theater. No question about it. But I think people are starting to go back to the theater. They're getting back into the routine of going back to a theater. And I think it's working quite well. Slowly but surely. Will it ever be to the height of what it used to be? I don't know. I don't think so.

Kevin Goetz (28:23):

Why do you not think so?

Mike Marcus (28:24):

Because I think streaming does make a difference. I mean, for my wife and I, you know, I'm gonna be 80 this year. My wife's going be 77. We pick and choose the movies we go to in the theater because it's just a drag for us to drive from where we live to the theater. So a lot of times we just as soon watch a movie at home, but we do still get to the theater. But nonetheless, it has just made life a little simpler to be able to watch some of these films on television.

*Kevin Goetz (28:54):

Yeah, I absolutely agree with you. One has to embrace the fact that it's not so much the business that has changed. In other words, the business is still really good at making content, marketing it, and distributing it. It's the consumer has changed, the customer has changed.

Mike Marcus (29:12):

Oh, sure.

Kevin Goetz (29:12):

And unless you react and realize that I like to look as opposed to women and men over a certain age, I like to look generationally, you know, from Alpha to Gen Z, to millennial, to Gen X, to Baby Boomer, that has more of a relevance in terms of being a digital native or a digital adopter. And also somebody who has a nostalgic relationship with the movie theater, like you and I, say do, because it had a different feeling and we have great memories. And much of our life was informed where we were watching those movies. Like music in many ways, isn't it?

Mike Marcus (29:58):

And I mean, going to the theaters, an experience my wife and I went to see Get Out in the theater years ago, there's a scene in the movie that is really scary, and my wife, out loud, says uh oh and the whole audience cracked up. I mean, that's movie going.

Kevin Goetz (30:16):

Yeah. You know, <laugh>, I remember seeing Bridges of Madison County and some woman in the audience said, open it, the car door. Yeah. Or she might have said, don't open it. Don't open it. I forget. But everyone lost their shit because it was so funny.

Mike Marcus (30:37):

And, and that's the beauty of going to the movie theater.

Kevin Goetz (30:39):

How do you still say relevant, Mike? In this day and age, you're 80 years old, you've managed to have a 55-yearcareer in this business.

Mike Marcus (30:49):

On March 1st, it will be 57 years since I started in the mail room.

Kevin Goetz (30:53):

My God. Okay. 57-year career. And yet you seem as relevant now as you were. How? <laugh>

Mike Marcus (31:02):

Because I'm too dumb to retire.

Kevin Goetz (31:04):

No, there's something else. <laugh>, you must be evolving with the times. First of all, you still must love it.

Mike Marcus (31:11):

Oh yeah, of course.

Kevin Goetz (31:12):

Exactly. But let's say that to folks. I mean, if you don't love something, you're not gonna be very good at it or relevant.

*Mike Marcus (31:19):

Listen, I've never once doubted the choice to get into the business. I've had a blast. I've had success. I can't complain. It is a lot of fun. And I've had fun building companies. On December 1st, it'll be 20 years since I started Echo Lake Management, the management division of Echo Lake Entertainment. I was consulting for them. And my partner said, look, if I put up the money, would you start a management company and run it with me? And that was almost 20 years.

Kevin Goetz (31:51):

Is that Doug Mankoff?

Mike Marcus (31:52):

Doug Mankoff. Right. And we've had a great partnership. We've had a lot of success. I've got 18 managers working for me. Wow. I've had more fun building the company than in some cases dealing with some of the clients.

Kevin Goetz (32:05):

What makes a great rep? Why is someone a really good representative for a director, a writer, or an actor?

*Mike Marcus (32:13):

I think a part of it is empathy. I think that you have to listen to them and understand where they're coming from and what's going on in their lives, and think about what would satisfy them. I've given scripts to clients that they passed on, and I kind of understood going in that they probably would. And I've given scripts to clients that I was fairly certain that they would like it and they did.

Kevin Goetz (32:36):

What keeps you up at night? Anything?

Mike Marcus (32:38):

Not really. I'm not a pressure guy. I am not a guy who sits and goes over and over and over things.

Kevin Goetz (32:46):

Is the business headed in a good direction?

Mike Marcus (32:51):

That is a very, very good question, Kevin. And I don't know the answer to that. I think there's aspects of it that aren't good. I think there's aspects of it that are good.

Kevin Goetz (33:02):

Let's unpack that for a second. Where in the business is there opportunity and where is it positive? Where are things going that you're excited about?

*Mike Marcus (33:11):

There seems to be the potential based on some feedback I've gotten from some of my folks that went to the Berlin Film Festival, that television is not as interesting as features are. So I believe there's gonna be a resurgence in the independent film business. So that's exciting. I like the idea that film can get energized again. And with films likeEmelia Perez, and Nora, and Brutalist and some of the other academy-nominated movies that are very inexpensive movies. I think that's an indication that independent films have not died out. So I think that's exciting. I think that there's still some figuring out that the streamers have to do as to how and when to stream television series and movies and what deserves to be in the theater and what doesn't. And I think that's all gonna shake out soon as people understand what it means.

(34:07):

I mean, this whole thing with the James Bond situation is fascinating, given the fact that the Bond franchise could be a whole other thing for Amazon, MGM. Whole universe. Whole universe. Whereas with the Broccolis, it was going to be a movie every so often because that's the way they wanted to do it. And I think they just convinced Barbara enough craziness and I think enough pressure on her to make a movie. And I think also her relationship with Michael Wilson, her stepbrother was very symbiotic. They were very close. And I think the fact that he's 83, he was ready to give it all up.

Kevin Goetz (34:49):

Absolutely.

Mike Marcus (34:50):

I have no knowledge as to whether this is correct or not. Yeah. I’m speculating. 

Kevin Goetz (34:54):

Where do you think the business is most vulnerable, and what do we need to be worried about?

*Mike Marcus (35:01):

I hate what the contracting of the industry has done to writers and directors and actors', salaries. So these people, for the most part, are not making the kind of money they used to make. And I think therefore, it is tougher on writers. It's tougher on the representatives. So the guys who work for me are great and they're doing a great job. They're not gonna make the kind of money I've made over the years. And why is that? Because the clients aren't making the kind of money that they used to make.

Kevin Goetz (35:30):

Any kind of worry about AI?

*Mike Marcus (35:32):

Yeah, to a degree. But people are so cognizant of it. I think there's gonna be a lot of people studying it. And as it starts to take people's jobs away, I mean, the truth is you could make a movie without an actor, without a writer, and without a director. Somebody could just come in and set it up with AI. But would people like it? I don't know. I've read some AI scripts and AI coverage, and there's no heart, there's no soul to these things.

Kevin Goetz (36:02):

Can you tell me, Mike, 'cause I always like to get sort of underneath the surface in these episodes, what was a mistake you've made in your career that you maybe regret but learned from? It could be personal, it could be in the business, but it's something that I kind of wanted that first gut reaction to.

Mike Marcus (36:26):

I've been asked it before. I think at the time when I was at MGM, I got into a fight with Mancuso. That was stupid of me, which I think led to my not having my option picked up for a second four years. And I think I regret that, although as it turns out, maybe being the guy that made big superhero movies wouldn't have been what I did anyhow. I wasn't gonna be that guy.

Kevin Goetz (36:50):

Hmm.

Mike Marcus (36:50):

I didn't think that was for me. But nonetheless, I regret having that fight with Frank, although we have certainly reconciled a lot.

Kevin Goetz (36:57):

Oh, I'm so glad to hear that, 'cause I'm really crazy about Frank and both.

Mike Marcus (37:01):

Frank's great, and it was stupid of me to have gotten into the fight I got into with him. Second of all, I was offered by Sherry Lansing an overall deal when I left MGM, and I didn't take it. And I went in business instead with MBST, the Morra, Brezner, Steinberg and Tenenbaum, joined their management company. And that was not a smart move on my part. I like the guys, terrific guys, but they didn't want to grow and build anything. They were pretty set in their ways. So that was probably a mistake. But as it turned out, had I taken the overall deal with Sherry, eventually, I wouldn't have met Doug and I wouldn't have been able to build Echo Lake. So I can't really call that a major mistake. In retrospect, going with MBST probably wasn't the smartest thing in the world for me.

Kevin Goetz (37:50):

Wow. How long has it been? 18 years at Echo Lake?

Mike Marcus (37:53):

It'll be 20 on the 1st of December.

Kevin Goetz (37:55):

Wow. I mean, <laugh>, yeah. That's a successful relationship.

Mike Marcus (38:00):

And in the 57 years I've been doing this, that is my longest place anywhere. And the CAA was the second longest.

Kevin Goetz (38:07):

Do you think we have an obligation to give back when we reach a certain level of success?

Mike Marcus (38:12):

Oh, I don't think there's any question.

Kevin Goetz (38:14):

It was a leading question because I knew that you did, and I know that you do, and I know <laugh>. But tell me about what you're involved with now.

Mike Marcus (38:22):

Well, I’m an Academy member, so I mentor people through Academy Gold, which is their mentorship program.

Kevin Goetz (38:29):

I've done that. It's so fulfilling.

Mike Marcus (38:31):

It is very fulfilling. Uh, I am also on two boards at Penn State, both the Dean's Advisory Council for the overall College of Communications, as well as I'm the chair of the Hollywood campus for Penn State. And I've thought they've been great and, and I've brought in a number of interns from Penn State. I have right now, I have two that are interns for us right now. And so I've worked with the interns, I speak to the interns, and I even did a commencement address with Penn State one year.

Kevin Goetz (39:01):

Oh, marvelous. What are you most excited coming up on your either clients of yours or personally that you're producing? Anything you can speak about?

Mike Marcus (39:09):

I've been working on something with the client of mine, Howie Deutch, for a number of years.

Kevin Goetz (39:13):

Oh man. Howie Deutch.

Mike Marcus (39:15):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (39:15):

Great. And Leah.

Mike Marcus (39:16):

We've come close three or four times. We got the financing put together to develop the script further, and that worked out. And then the company that did it went bankrupt, so we had to get the script back. Then I had another company that was interested in it and that didn't work. And then another company was interested in it and that didn't work. So now we have another situation where we can potentially get it made. We've got Shirley McLean starring in it, and we just wanna get it done before too late.

Kevin Goetz (39:43):

Brad Furman was just a guest, and he just did a picture with Shirley and said that it was one of the best experiences he's ever had in his life.

Mike Marcus (39:51):

The few conversations I've had with her about this film, she's a firecracker. She's amazing.

Kevin Goetz (39:55):

Oh man. I love the fact that you are working with a Howie Deutch or any of these filmmakers who've had wonderful success and haven't been able to get a movie made, and that you're still keeping that fight going. You have to because there's such talent out there. There's such great talent. I revere age and experience. I have to tell you, I go out of my way to hire for it, to learn from it, because it only benefits me. You know what I mean? Because there's so much I can gain from people that have paid their dues, if you will.

*Mike Marcus (40:35):

Experience is everything. I rarely run into a problem that I haven't seen before.

Kevin Goetz (40:41):

Isn't that great?

Mike Marcus (40:42):

Yeah. Very rarely

Kevin Goetz (40:44):

Problems that you maybe learned from the mail room <laugh> Exactly. That looked or seemed insurmountable, probably back then, probably now feel like, ugh, easy peasy.

*Mike Marcus (40:56):

It takes a good 10 years to really know what you're doing, in my opinion.

Kevin Goetz (41:00):

Oh.

Mike Marcus (41:01):

And then once you do, you just incrementally build from there. And again, like I said, nothing surprises me anymore.

Kevin Goetz (41:08):

You know, it's so funny you said that because when I talk to a lot of my friends who have kids in their twenties, which is a very challenging time right now to have kids in your twenties, because the attitudinal changes are so large and so vast, we had to lay a stake pretty quickly out of college. And I tell them folks, there are no mistakes that kids can make in their twenties. In other words, they're all opportunities for growth and learning and living to get you to a place in your, say, early thirties where you do lay that stake and people are living longer now, et cetera, et cetera.

Mike Marcus (41:49):

That's the key. Living longer is the answer. Because when I was a kid, people were retiring at 65, you almost had to retire. The reason they put 65 as the retirement age for Medicare was because people didn't live much longer than that. Now I, I mean, I'm gonna be 80 and I'm healthy, and you know there's a good chance I might make it to 90. My friend Fred Specktor is 91. He'll be 92 in April.

Kevin Goetz (42:15):

He hasn't lost anything, Fred.

Mike Marcus (42:17):

He's still an agent. He’s still going in every day. He's the best man. Richard. Richard Lovett had to tell him, if I see you in the office on a Friday, you're fired <laugh> just to get him pulled back a little bit.

Kevin Goetz (42:28):

He's the greatest.

Mike Marcus (42:28):

And that's a true story. You can check with Fred. So you cannot make a mistake. Go for it. Give it a shot, try it, it doesn't work. Start all over again.

Kevin Goetz (42:37):

I say it's not a jail sentence, <laugh>. Exactly. Mike Marcus, you're such an important part of our business, the fabric of it. Thank you. What you've accomplished, it's so extraordinary, and you've affected so many lives in our town, and I thank you for joining me today. It's been an honor.

Mike Marcus (42:55):

Oh, thank you, Kevin. I had a lot of fun. I appreciate you and appreciate our relationship over the years.

Kevin Goetz (43:02):

To our listeners, I hope you enjoyed our interview today. I encourage you to watch many of the films discussed in today’s interview. For more filmmaking and audience testing stories, I invite you to check out my book, Audienceology, at Amazon or through my website at KevinGoetz360.com. You can also follow me on my social media. Next time on Don't Kill the Messenger, I'll welcome a legend in the world of visual effects, Scott Ross. Until then, I'm Kevin Goetz, and to you, our listeners, I appreciate you being part of the movie-making process. Your opinions matter.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: Mike Marcus
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)