Jerry Bruckheimer (Producer) on Making Blockbusters, Audience Testing, and 50+ Years in Hollywood

In this episode of Don't Kill the Messenger, host Kevin Goetz sits down with legendary producer Jerry Bruckheimer, the mastermind behind billion-dollar blockbusters, including Top Gun, Pirates of the Caribbean, Bad Boys, Beverly Hills Cop, and the television shows CSI, The Amazing Race, and Fire Country. Bruckheimer shares insights into his detailed approach to filmmaking, the power of test screenings, and what it takes to consistently deliver crowd-pleasing entertainment.

The Power of Audience Testing (01:22)

Bruckheimer emphasizes the crucial role audience research has played in his success, citing examples like Armageddon and Bad Boys: Ride or Die, which both saw significant improvements in test screening scores.

The Origins of Top Gun and Casting Tom Cruise (08:49)

Bruckheimer reveals how Top Gun almost didn't get made due to studio concerns about airplane movies, and his brilliant strategy of arranging for Tom Cruise to fly with the Blue Angels, which sealed Cruise's commitment to the project.

Learning from The Lone Ranger (18:05)

Goetz and Bruckheimer analyze why The Lone Ranger didn't connect with audiences, emphasizing how budget discussions overshadowed the creative vision and the importance of early concept testing.

F1: The Upcoming Blockbuster (24:20)

Bruckheimer details the three-year process of making F1, from convincing Formula 1 teams to participate to achieving record-breaking test screening scores.

Working with Hollywood Legends (29:22)

Bruckheimer shares personal stories about collaborating with icons like Gene Hackman, Will Smith, Eddie Murphy, and Johnny Depp.

Television Empire and The Amazing Race (40:01)

With 10 Emmy wins for The Amazing Race and over 2000 episodes across franchises like CSI and Fire Country, Bruckheimer discusses his approach to television and how he maintains the quality across multiple projects.

Over the course of the interview, Bruckheimer shares how his pursuit of perfection, genuine respect for audiences, and ability to adapt while maintaining his core philosophy, "I don't make movies for anybody but the audience," contributed to his mega success. His insights reveal the strategic thinking and collaborative spirit behind some of Hollywood's biggest franchises.

Host: Kevin Goetz

Guest: Jerry Bruckheimer

Producer: Kari Campano

Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, Nick Nunez, and Kari Campano

Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)

For more information about Jerry Bruckheimer:

Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Bruckheimer

IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000988/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jerrybruckheimer/?hl=en

For more information about Kevin Goetz:

Website: www.KevinGoetz360.com

Audienceology Book: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Audience-ology/Kevin-Goetz/9781982186678

How to Score in Hollywood: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/How-to-Score-in-Hollywood/Kevin-Goetz/9781982189860

Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, Substack: @KevinGoetz360

Linked In @Kevin Goetz

Transcript

Podcast: Don't Kill the Messenger with Movie Research Expert Kevin Goetz
Guest: Producer Jerry Bruckheimer

Interview Transcript:

Announcer (00:03):

From script to screen, every film is brought to life by visionary creatives and executives, all sharing one mission – to captivate the audience. Hosted by award-winning movie strategist, Kevin Goetz, our podcast, Don't Kill The Messenger, offers a filmmaking masterclass through intimate conversations with Hollywood's most influential voices. And now, your host, Kevin Goetz.

Kevin Goetz (00:28):

You might expect someone behind billion-dollar blockbusters to be a larger-than-life personality, but my guest today defies expectations despite producing some of Hollywood's biggest action spectacles. Jerry Bruckheimer operates with quiet intensity, letting his work speak for itself. A meticulous strategist rather than a showman. He's known for his razor-sharp instincts, obsessive attention to detail, and an almost uncanny ability to pick winners. The calm at the center of the storm, he brings precision and vision to every production. I am personally just crazy about this man. And Jerry, I cannot thank you enough for joining me here today.

*Jerry Bruckheimer (01:16):

Well, thank you Kevin. I've had quite a few successes and you're a big part of 'em, so thank you. Thank you. When you look at my career and you look at the movies that have worked going through the process with you and your intelligence and the people that write up these reports and the precision of them makes our movie so much better, you have no idea how much it helps us because sometimes what happens is you'll get a director or a studio who's entrenched on a certain idea for your movie and then the results come in and it's opposite of what they think it is. So it helps us to craft the best kind of film that we can. And also with actors too, when they see that it doesn't have to be everything they want it to be. The audience loves what they've done and you prove it.

(02:11):

And then when you do the focus groups and you start asking these questions and we kind of help craft the questions with you 'cause we wanna find out how do we get in the weeds and what did we miss? I just remember one instance where we had a preview with you of Armageddon and the audience said to us he never gave her an engagement ring. Now these dummy men that made the movie had no idea that you have to give him an engagement ring. So we had to go out and shoot another scene where, where Ben gives her an engagement ring and asks her to marry him. Of course. So I mean it's so helpful.

Kevin Goetz (02:48):

There's a particular recent example. And by the way, thank you so much for the acknowledgements for me and my team. I wanna ask you, Bad Boys was such a great example of audience testing. Can you talk about it? Because you can talk about it rather than I about how strongly they moved from that first screening until, I wanna say one month later.

Jerry Bruckheimer (03:15):

You know, the editing process is a fascinating thing because if you have a good director and a good screenplay, you'll shoot as much as you possibly can. So you have a lot of footage and a lot of options. And sometimes we make the wrong choices with that footage, at least for the audience. I mean, we make the right choices for us, but the audience doesn't sometimes agree with us and Bad Boys is a great example of how that happened. I think the first test we did with you, I think it was in the seventies.

Kevin Goetz (03:44):

Yes. Top two boxes. Yeah. Excellent and very good combined were probably in the seventies and maybe even lower.

Jerry Bruckheimer (03:49):

Seventies. Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (03:50):

And it's not like they didn't like the movie, it's just that you hadn't found your rhythm of it and they didn't really have permission if I recall, to laugh as much as they wanted to from the get go.

*Jerry Bruckheimer (04:01):

Yeah, I think that what happened there is that the movie we made had too much angst for Will's character and the audience doesn't want to know that. They want to see Will as Will Smith, a guy who takes over and a strong heroic character at the center of the movie. And he wasn't that in the film. So fortunately for us, that test told Will and our directors and ourselves that that's not the path for this movie. And so over a month.

Kevin Goetz (04:28):

One month, I just wanna tell our listeners is like nothing. And yet we did probably one a week and you kept evolving. What did you do?

Jerry Bruckheimer (04:38):

We just kept shortening and changing, taking things out that the audience didn't like.

Kevin Goetz (04:43):

And creating a different order so that it created a different cadence. But long story short version is it went up to the nineties.

Jerry Bruckheimer (04:51):

That's exactly right.

Kevin Goetz (04:52):

And I've never done this before, but I framed the top line sheet that I hand out at the end of screenings and I sent it over to you and to Will and I think to Chad and your directors.

Jerry Bruckheimer (05:05):

Yeah, I thank you for that.

Kevin Goetz (05:07):

I don't do that. But that was such a great experience, I must say. And Sony was a great partner on it.

Jerry Bruckheimer (05:12):

Yeah, I think that again, that's comes down to Tom Rothman,

Kevin Goetz (05:16):

Isn't he the greatest?

Jerry Bruckheimer (05:17):

He loves movies.

Kevin Goetz (05:19):

He loves movies

Jerry Bruckheimer (05:19):

And he's a great storyteller and his help on the movie jumped those numbers.

*Kevin Goetz (05:25):

Well, you love movies. I wanna acknowledge your respect for the audience. So you said all those really nice things about me. I wanna say that it doesn't work only one sided. You have to have filmmakers and people who are receptive and truly understand who you're making these movies for. And you do. And I see you every screening sitting in the second row of the focus group on the end, on the edge of your seat immersed listening. And then when we do the post meetings, you are so engaged and wanna know more and more about what did the audience say there? How did the audience react there? And that is, I'm going to just go on a limb and say one of your superpowers.

*Jerry Bruckheimer (06:15):

Again, I don't make these movies for anybody but the audience and as long as my taste is in concert with their taste, I'll still be talking to you in more podcasts. But if that changes, I won't be here.

Kevin Goetz (06:30):

Don't think it can change going back to Flash Dance and American Gigolo and some of those earlier movies. But I'd wanna start with the young Jerry, film in your DNA or not? I would say it probably wasn't what you dreamt of doing as a kid based on what I know. I bet being a hockey star was more in line with.

Jerry Bruckheimer (06:50):

Yeah, I don't think I was ever dreaming about being a hockey star. I wasn't that good an athlete, but I loved hockey and played it when I was young. You know, I always loved movies and I just remember from the time I was six, seven years old, my mom and my cousins taking me to movies and I just loved the experience. What was your first movie you saw? I'm sure it was a Disney movie, but I can't remember.

Kevin Goetz (07:14):

That first movie that made an Impression on you?

Jerry Bruckheimer (07:15):

Well I think the films by David Lean really as a kid, captured me The Great Escape, Steve McQueen. Some of those big adventure films I, I really loved.

Kevin Goetz (07:26):

Did you set out to wanna be Mr. Blockbuster? And I mean that in all seriousness. In other words, did you wanna make movies that were more personal to you and you stumbled into just understanding what the commercial arts meant?

*Jerry Bruckheimer (07:45):

No, I just make movies I wanna see. I don't make movies for an audience 'cause I don't know what they want to see. I just know what I like and if I like something I'll try to get it made. It's about big ideas, great characters, great themes, and really good storytelling. And we're really fortunate. We live in a town where there's so much talent with our writers and our directors and our actors and you just have to put the work in to find the best ones for what you wanna do.

Kevin Goetz (08:17):

What was one of the hardest ones to get made and became one of your most successful?

Jerry Bruckheimer (08:22):

They're all hard. There's never an easy one. They're just all really difficult. You can go back to Top Gun. When we first turned the script inro the management at Paramount said there was a TV series about the Air Force and it failed. So they decided an audience has no interest in airplanes.

Kevin Goetz (08:42):

Isn't that the worst?

Jerry Bruckheimer (08:44):

So we were very fortunate because that management left and a new management came in, which regime, yes it was Ned Tanen. Ah, he called us up to his house in Santa Monica Canyon. I was with Tony Scott and Don Simpson, who was my partner. Great showman himself.

Kevin Goetz (09:02):

Call out to Tony.

Jerry Bruckheimer (09:03):

Yeah boy, I miss him. One of the greatest. And Ned said the cupboards are bare here but I don't have anything to make. I know you have this script Top Gun. And he said to me, just tell me the story. What is it? And so Don, he just told him this tale about Top Gun. I'm not sure it really was the movie we were gonna make, but Ned said, what do you think it's gonna cost? And I gave him a number and he said go make it now.

Kevin Goetz (09:28):

How'd you get Tom? Because Tom wasn't Tom yet. Tom had done risky business.

Jerry Bruckheimer (09:34):

Correct.

Kevin Goetz (09:34):

But he hadn't.

Jerry Bruckheimer (09:35):

Yeah,

Kevin Goetz (09:36):

Top Gun was his real breakout movie.

Jerry Bruckheimer (09:38):

He just finished a movie with Ridley Scott. It was a fantasy.

Kevin Goetz (09:44):

But not like a blockbuster.

Jerry Bruckheimer (09:45):

No, but it was a good movie.

Kevin Goetz (09:46):

Did you want Tom from the get go?

Jerry Bruckheimer (09:48):

From the get go. He was the number one. We didn't go out to anybody else and he was playing very coy with us. So I set up for him to fly with the Blue Angels in El Centro.

Kevin Goetz (09:59):

Oh boy, you are so smart. You knew exactly that that would get him.

*Jerry Bruckheimer (10:03):

Yeah, he drives down there. He just finished his movie where he got shoulder length hair. So he drives down there in his motorcycle and he's got this long hair and you see these navy pilots and they take a look at and they say this, we're gonna give this hippie the ride of his life, <laugh>.

Kevin Goetz (10:18):

Oh great.

*Jerry Bruckheimer (10:19):

And so they twisted him, turned him and he threw up and he just, and he got out of the plane and he went to a payphone because there were no cell phones in those days. And he called me up, he said, I'm in, I'm in the movie.

Kevin Goetz (10:30):

Oh, isn't that great? Yeah. Tell me about going from Detroit to, I guess Arizona is where you went to school, right?

Jerry Bruckheimer (10:38):

Yes. No, the only place would take me. My grades were so good that couldn't get in anywhere else.

Kevin Goetz (10:43):

Oh we we, we share something else. I didn't realize that now my grades weren't bad. My SATs sucked.

Jerry Bruckheimer (10:48):

I had both bad grades and bad SATs so.

Kevin Goetz (10:51):

So you were a psychology major and a minor in algebra?

Jerry Bruckheimer (10:56):

Yes. How? How do you figure that one out?

Kevin Goetz (10:59):

I can't.

Jerry Bruckheimer (11:00):

I guess I have a very logical mind. I have a good emotional intelligence and somehow putting algebra is, there's a definitive answer and I always wanted a definitive answer. So I really enjoyed algebra.

Kevin Goetz (11:15):

That's so interesting because that was the only math that I could sort of do. Geometry, I was a disaster in, you know, that abstract thinking and all that and then forget it. I never made it to trigonometry or calculus. But I was in the arts, I was a child actor and I started working professionally when I was young. So that was my saving grace and also had that business sense. So I started a business when I was 17 so I had that left and right brain thing. It's kind of like, I think when kids are now often judged on their intelligence, I often question what are we really looking at here? You know, I mean it measures STEM a lot. Mm-hmm <affirmative> but not the emotional intelligence, the musical intelligence, the artistic intelligence and so forth. Aren't you also into photography?

Jerry Bruckheimer (12:02):

Yeah, I did a lot of photography when I was young, but when I was growing up and I was in like grade school, I'm dyslexic and I, you didn't know what dyslexia was when I was growing up.

Kevin Goetz (12:14):

There's no diagnosis for it. 

Jerry Bruckheimer (12:14):

No, you're just dumb 'cause you could, you are always in the last reading group and what my brain does, it inverts words or inverts things. So things are kind of backwards still. Still. So it's hard for you to read a script? Yeah, it's hard. It's hard because, and giving speeches, it's hard for me to read a prompter 'cause the words kind of, they change in their order. It's really a weird thing.

Kevin Goetz (12:40):

I would imagine that you've probably overcompensated in some way in your life and have probably found a way around it.

Jerry Bruckheimer (12:47):

Well my visual sense and taste is what changed it for me. And that's why photography was so great. I didn't have to perform. I could just take pictures of people performing. You got a job in a mailroom in Detroit, a mail room in Detroit for a company called McManus, John, and Adams, which had General Motors, Pontiac and Cadillac. And so I started in the mail room, worked myself up into the television department as an assistant and then became an assistant producer and then a producer.

Kevin Goetz (13:17):

So that taught you the nuts and bolts early on of film.

Jerry Bruckheimer (13:19):

I knew film. I didn't know motion pictures.

Kevin Goetz (13:22):

Yeah. My husband's the same way. He was in advertising in Chicago, Campbell Mithun. And he learned how to produce, he was a writer but he learned how to produce, I mean hundreds of commercials.

Jerry Bruckheimer (13:32):

That's what we did.

Kevin Goetz (13:33):

That's incredible. You also have worked with a lot of directors that you've plucked out of music videos and you've seen the essence of what they can do.

Jerry Bruckheimer (13:42):

Well I believe that it's not radio. So the visual is really important and the way you stand out is by having something unique and special on what you're something different than what's on television and what's in tv.

Kevin Goetz (13:56):

Did you see that with Michael Bay for example?

Jerry Bruckheimer (13:57):

Absolutely. I mean his work is spectacular. I mean Spielberg jumped on him right away after we worked with him.

Kevin Goetz (14:06):

I think he's so gifted. I wanna talk about Don, you and Don were so formidable. I remember as a young pitcher working at NRG, seeing you guys on those early movies. He was all about Don. He was the guy and you were sort of in the background and you gave him that. And the rumors were that you kind of did all the work and you were the stake and he was the sizzle and it worked beautifully. You just told us that story about how he went to Ned Tanen's house.

Jerry Bruckheimer (14:37):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (14:39):

When he passed away. We were all devastated for so many reasons. I can only imagine what went through your head when you got that call.

Jerry Bruckheimer (14:48):

We expected it for a long time.

Kevin Goetz (14:50):

That's fair and very honest for you to say about.

Jerry Bruckheimer (14:52):

Yeah because the, his lifestyle was unfortunately at times outta control. And when he was really down and we took him to a rehab center and when he got out, the doctor said, unless you stop this, you're not gonna live much longer. Your heart can't handle it. And he said, oh these doctors don't know what they're talking about. Oh. And 96 is when he died. But I think it was like 52 or something like that. Like I was shocked even when it happens. You're shocked. Were you guys like brothers? Yeah, I mean we were really close. It was a right brain, left brain kind of.

Kevin Goetz (15:28):

I was gonna ask you if you were angry with him.

Jerry Bruckheimer (15:30):

I was angry at some of the later years that he couldn't get control of his life 'cause he was the greatest, funniest, most brilliant guy. But he had these demons and the only way to deal with those demons is to anesthetize himself. Wow. And that's kind of terrible. He grew up in a very religious household and I think that it made him feel guilty for doing the things he liked doing.

Kevin Goetz (15:58):

When that happened, I remembered thinking what's Jerry gonna do? And what Jerry did, quite frankly was become the greatest solo producer I think our business has ever seen. Were you scared?

*Jerry Bruckheimer (16:14):

Yeah, I was scared always <laugh>. I live scared. I'm still scared. I always worry about what's coming up. In other words, what am I missing? What is, we got this movie coming out, how can we promote it better?

Kevin Goetz (16:27):

It is spectacular. We'll talk about that a little bit later in the program. But I wanna, I wanna just stay on your beginning as a solo act. When did you sort of realize, wow, I'm gonna be okay? Was that sort of Pirates of the Caribbean?

*Jerry Bruckheimer (16:43):

I always bet on myself.

Kevin Goetz (16:44):

I love that.

*Jerry Bruckheimer (16:46):

Because when I left advertising in New York, I was making a really good salary. And I came to California to work on a picture what's called the Culpepper Cattle Company. And it was a small little western, I never even heard of it to be honest. Billy Greenbush was a star and nobody's ever heard of him either. So that was a big step for me to come to California for basically no money. I was making $200 a week as an associate producer on the movie. But I bet on myself, I really bet that I figured I could carve a career for myself because I work really hard. I really love what I do and I work hard at it. And I think the harder you work, the luckier you get.

Kevin Goetz (17:29):

You don't phone it in. I see it with my own eyes. Listeners, let me tell you. He is completely engaged and actively participating in the success of every movie. You are not gonna give up your competitive edge.

Jerry Bruckheimer (17:42):

Or failure. There's some failures in there, but I'm participating those too.

Kevin Goetz (17:46):

You don't make a movie alone. You make it in tandem with a lot of folks. Before I say my theory, let's talk about one of your failures 'cause I actually have a little knowledge that's Lone Ranger.

*Jerry Bruckheimer (17:56):

Yes. The discussion when we started making the movie was about the budget and not about the movie, it was about the budget, what the movie was gonna cost. And that became the discussion all the way through the making of it, the releasing of it rather than this was a really bold choice. The kind of movie that Gore made. And he's a brilliant filmmaker.

Kevin Goetz (18:15):

Wonderful filmmaker.

Jerry Bruckheimer (18:16):

Yeah. Amazing, amazing talent. And that kind of sunk the movie. It really did. It's really unfortunate.

Kevin Goetz (18:22):

I remember coming to you now and saying, there's a product that I have called Capability Testing, which is early greenlight testing. And you said, oh tell me more. And I said, well funnily, we used a bunch of movies. Lone Range was one of them. And we were able to show the intensity of the interest early on and it just wasn't there. Not because it wasn't a terrific movie. I thought it was very well done. But it was being comped as a superhero movie when in fact it wasn't. It was a guy with a mask and it was of course Johnny Depp who was a very big movie star, but in capability we don't even put the movie stars names in yet. We're just talking about purely the concept. And I remember, I don't know if you remember this, but I remember the results coming back and saying that this is gonna do somewhere domestically between 80 and 120.

(19:13):

And you said something to the effect of, well if it does that we're fucked. And in fact it did do in that range. I wasn't gonna give an actual number, but I knew that the interest just wasn't there in enough of the different, I call them octents, not even quadrants, boys, girls, moms, dad, teen boys, teen girls, general audience, men general, and females. It just wasn't clicking enough boxes. And I said, so it's all about the budget, just what you're saying now. And I remember asking you, I said, Jerry, why didn't you just make it for less? And you're like, we couldn't. And I thought that was a really interesting answer 'cause the only other answer is don't make it. Am I right?

Jerry Bruckheimer (19:57):

Yeah. But the budget that was released was highly inflated. But you have to live with it. Unfortunately in Hollywood there are people that give out information that's inaccurate and the media believes it, rather than checking with the studio.

Kevin Goetz (20:14):

Now on the other side, you've had probably more single successes or franchises than any other producer. What's the pressure like when you're getting someone else's money, paying $200 million, whatever it is on a picture? F1's purported to be way more than that. Is there an enormous onus that you feel?

*Jerry Bruckheimer (20:37):

Yeah, I feel I wanna return whatever we spent to whoever gave us the money, the studios or whoever financed it. That's my job to make sure that A, we make a good movie, B, we bring it in on budget and C, that we get a return on their investment. That's what a producer's supposed to do. And so we try to put things together that kind of make it to a place where they feel comfortable and spending that money by a great writer, a great director of movie stars or whatever it is. Or if you can't get movie stars, you make it for such small amount of money that their exposure is not as much.

Kevin Goetz (21:16):

Well what is your feeling about hedging your bets? Where do you do that? Is it in the initial concept? Is it in the stars that you're bringing on? Is it your director's vision or are you gonna say D, all of the above.

*Jerry Bruckheimer (21:34):

It is all of the above. And you have to, when you interview a director who wants to do the piece of material you gave them, you gotta listen to what they say the first time, not what you want them to say.

Kevin Goetz (21:47):

Oh that's smart.

Jerry Bruckheimer (21:49):

And I've had it happen where it turns they're still making the movie they pitched to you early, not the the movie that they're supposed to be making. 

Kevin Goetz (21:57):

Can you, I'm trying to understand like who someone came in and just said, oh my god, that's our director. They nailed this concept so beautifully.

Jerry Bruckheimer (22:06):

Well, you know, I think Joe Kosinski does it.

Kevin Goetz (22:09):

Joe Kosinski is a great example. Top Gun Maverick and F1 director. Let's actually take a break here because when we come back I'd like to talk all about F1 and that whole process. We'll be back in a moment. If you are curious about how movies actually turn a profit, I've got something for you. My upcoming book, How to Score in Hollywood, dives into the intersection of creative instinct and audience insight and where the business of film meets the art of storytelling. The book is available for pre-order now on your favorite bookseller platform. I'm also putting together a book launch team and I'd love for you to be a part of it. We're looking for people to help spread the word ahead of our November release and also to leave a short book review after its release. In exchange you'll get early access to the book, exclusive behind the scenes content and more. Sign up to join my launch team or for book updates at KevinGoetz360.com. And as always, thank you for your support. We are back with the GOAT, the greatest of all time, producer Jerry Bruckheimer. Jerry F1. What can I say? I saw the film months ago and it was an experience. It was a ride. Did you know that you were gonna come out of the gate as hot? Have you seen a screening by the way, score as high as that one did right out of the gate?

*Jerry Bruckheimer (23:37):

I don't think that's ever happened. I think that was one of the first times that we've ever had a screening that was that exciting for an audience and yet we even made it better after that screening.

Kevin Goetz (23:48):

Well we're gonna unpack that. Yeah. Because that's you and the two of us have insatiable desires to ring out every ounce of potential. And you're relentless. You're a researcher's dream. Tell me about the conversation you have with your director, for example, when you get extremely high scores and everyone else's inclination might be lock it. Where's your head go?

*Jerry Bruckheimer (24:15):

Well, we go through the picture together. We'll sit down and, and I don't give notes. I don't write out notes. I've never written out notes for a movie. I will sit with the director and the editor and we'll go through every scene and we'll say, what can we change? Is this working? Is this economical? Is there anything we can lose? Here is something that is not part of developing the character or moving the plot forward. And we'll just go through it and we will go through it. A number of times a after each preview, Joe is very receptive to what the audience tells him. So what your focus group and what your notes said, Joe followed him to a tee. He's like a producer's dream.

Kevin Goetz (24:59):

By the way, let's say he did it on Top Gun Maverick as well. Yes. What a gifted director too, just and aside from being a nice effing guy. Yeah, he's just a really quality filmmaker.

Jerry Bruckheimer (25:11):

Yeah, yeah. He really is. He's a trained engineer and architect. So everything is very precise.

Kevin Goetz (25:16):

Is that true?

Jerry Bruckheimer (25:17):

Oh yeah.

Kevin Goetz (25:18):

Oh I didn't know that.

Jerry Bruckheimer (25:19):

Yeah, he went to engineering school.

Kevin Goetz (25:21):

That does not surprise me. Now that you're saying that

Jerry Bruckheimer (25:23):

His technical expertise is unbelievable what he goes through. Like the screening we had, he goes in there and it's listed as an Atmos theater. Sure. He goes in there, they never turn the Atmos on.

Kevin Goetz (25:35):

Oh Christ. So didn't we move screens or something?

Jerry Bruckheimer (25:39):

Yeah, but he fixed it. He got a whole tech team in and they fixed it.

Kevin Goetz (25:43):

You know who else is like that by the way, is Jim Cameron.

Jerry Bruckheimer (25:45):

I'm sure.

Kevin Goetz (25:46):

Jim is dogged that way. I remember testing Titanic back in the day and I arrived at the theater and Jim is literally lugging a pole for lights 'cause he's gonna place the lights in the right place so people could fill out their questionnaires. I was like, this dude's the real deal man. He is. This is something else.

Jerry Bruckheimer (26:08):

How did that test?

Kevin Goetz (26:10):

Unbelievably. Well now that was akin to Gone With the Wind, right? If you remember the story, the legend, and I heard this from Sam Goldwyn Jr. Told me this because David O. Selznick told him that when they tested Gone With the Wind, they went down, I think it was either Riverside or Pomona. They had two caravans leaving the studio 'cause it was so highly anticipated and everyone wanted a peak. And so they had a fake group that went to one and the real one went to the other. And legend was they locked the doors during the screening so no one could leave. That was not true. There was barely any traffic because people were so riveted. Titanic was also so highly anticipated. The budget overruns and people, it was Schadenfreude of people I think wanted to not see it succeed. We recruited it as a fake movie. So the audience was there ready to see, I think it was Great Expectations and they're in the seats and I had to get up in front of the audience and announce, you are not here to see Great Expectations. You're one of the first audiences to see Titanic. And it was a wind. Yeah, we can imagine. That came at me. Yeah. And literally threw me against the screen. I had it recently with Tom again on Mission Impossible.

Jerry Bruckheimer (27:27):

I’m sure.

Kevin Goetz (27:28):

When I mentioned Mission Impossible, they went nuts. And it's such a great moment. It is to me, and you'll appreciate this, it's almost like that perfect moment between audience and studios and filmmakers where you're gonna learn that people give a shit and to what extent. And it's the rawest read. So when that movie opened, Titanic started and you saw the water, literally the waves of folks were just apoplectic. It scored through the roof. There were some changes done for pace, some tightening, but by and large it was a perfect picture.

Jerry Bruckheimer (28:04):

That's great. I loved it.

Kevin Goetz (28:06):

It's a great story though, isn't it?

Jerry Bruckheimer (28:07):

Yeah. Great story.

Kevin Goetz (28:09):

So this was not that far off is what I'm saying. Your experience. And yet you said you found ways to bring up. I mean, how much more could we have raised the scores? And yet you did. Jerry, I wanna talk about some people you've worked with in your past who have great meaning to you. I'm sure one of them is someone we lost recently, Gene Hackman.

Jerry Bruckheimer (28:35):

Yeah. I made three movies with him.

Kevin Goetz (28:36):

Exactly. Tell me about him and how intimidating he was for the other <laugh> folks on the pictures.

*Jerry Bruckheimer (28:42):

Consummate professional. You're not gonna find an actor that is on time, knows his lines, ready to go to work, willing to collaborate with other actors and the director and works very hard. He was just a joy to work with. He was tough. I just watched how he worked with a young actor Will Smith when we did Enemy of the State and how patient he was with Will. Because Will took like three takes or four takes to get up in a rhythm and Gene would hold back as soon as he knew Will was in rhythm. He just let it go.

Kevin Goetz (29:17):

That's self-preservation. Yeah. But also very respectful of him.

Jerry Bruckheimer (29:21):

Absolutely.

Kevin Goetz (29:21):

Or his fellow actor Eddie Murphy.

Jerry Bruckheimer (29:24):

Oh boy. You know, you see him light up on the screen and in person. He's really shy. He's a sweetheart.

Kevin Goetz (29:32):

He's so sweet, isn't he?

Jerry Bruckheimer (29:33):

He, he's a sweetheart and he's such a great observer of society in the world. And that's where his humor comes from.

Kevin Goetz (29:39):

Another one that you and I worked very closely was the reboot about a year ago.

Jerry Bruckheimer (29:45):

Beverly Hill’s Cop..

Kevin Goetz (29:46):

And another success story. It did very well on the service, didn't it?

Jerry Bruckheimer (29:50):

It sure did.

Kevin Goetz (29:51):

But you were relentless on that. You tested it over and over because you wanted to get it right. It was a legacy piece for you and for Eddie and you wanted to make it as perfect as you could.

Jerry Bruckheimer (30:03):

And we went out and picked up some scenes to make it even better. We do that a lot.

Kevin Goetz (30:08):

I love that. Do you actually hold money back?

Jerry Bruckheimer (30:11):

We do.

Kevin Goetz (30:12):

We do. Is that almost always on that level movie? Pretty much on that level budget.

Jerry Bruckheimer (30:16):

We did it on just about every movie, including F1. We never had to go back and shoot anything. So we got it right the first time.

Kevin Goetz (30:24):

And just asking. But does the money go back to the studio?

Jerry Bruckheimer (30:28):

Of course. Damn <laugh>. We wanted to put it in the advertising. That's all.

Kevin Goetz (30:33):

Now that's smart. Tell me about Johnny Depp.

Jerry Bruckheimer (30:37):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (30:38):

How was that working with Johnny?

Jerry Bruckheimer (30:40):

He's the sweetest guy. He's just

Kevin Goetz (30:41):

Brilliant though.

Jerry Bruckheimer (30:42):

He's really an artist. He's a painter and poet and a writer. Oh yeah.

Kevin Goetz (30:45):

Literally an artist.

Jerry Bruckheimer (30:46):

Yeah. Yeah. He's really an artist. And he lives an artist lifestyle. That's when he lives. And he came to Hollywood when he was very young. First went to Florida, left school 'cause he had a tough home life. Not terrible, but just wanted to get out of there and moved to Florida. He wanted to be a rock and roll star. Never got any traction. Moved out here and didn't get any traction. And he was living at Nick Cage's house. He met Nick and he was sleeping on Nick's couch.

Kevin Goetz (31:17):

That sounds like Hackman and Dustin Hoffman.

Jerry Bruckheimer (31:20):

Yeah. They worked for a moving company. They did. Yeah. They were lugging furniture, the two of 'em.

Kevin Goetz (31:24):

Mike Medavoy mentioned to me that Walter Hill was in the mail room with him and John Badham. I was like, you're kidding. Like everyone did something.

Jerry Bruckheimer (31:33):

That’s right.

Kevin Goetz (31:34):

Is there a director that you haven't worked with that you'd really love to?

Jerry Bruckheimer (31:37):

Oh, there's so many great directors. There really are. And you know there's, they're always booked. I'm impatient.

Kevin Goetz (31:43):

I mean it's such a big commitment.

Jerry Bruckheimer (31:45):

Yeah, well we get a script, right? When studio wants to make it, we gotta find the best who's available 'cause I can't sit there and wait 'cause what happens is you wait, the director becomes available, then decides, wait, I have this passion project, let me try to fit that in. And then you're pushed out another year. So I really believe you gotta find a director when the studio wants to make it.

Kevin Goetz (32:05):

Do you ever lose your temper?

Jerry Bruckheimer (32:07):

There are times when you find people who are dishonest with you. Sure.

Kevin Goetz (32:11):

You fire someone almost always at a beginning of a movie? It's a very common trait to

Jerry Bruckheimer (32:15):

No.

Kevin Goetz (32:16):

To set the stage of…

Jerry Bruckheimer (32:17):

No. If they deserve it, sure.

Kevin Goetz (32:19):

But you don't do it as a, as a normal course of action.

Jerry Bruckheimer (32:22):

No, never.

Kevin Goetz (32:23):

Tony Scott, we brought up, he had a great meaning for you. And I just revered the man. I thought he was incredible. Such a tragic end to his life. They don't make him like that a lot anymore.

Jerry Bruckheimer (32:37):

No. He was the hardest working director ever. I mean they all work hard.

Kevin Goetz (32:41):

Sensitive though. There's a leitmotif to your movies, Jerry. They're muscular, male driven, primarily. Not all. You've got Flashdance and others like that. That's not an accident. It must be what you really respond to.

*Jerry Bruckheimer (32:57):

That's what I like. Look at the movies I liked when I grew up. It's the same kind of movies. I try to entertain myself and entertain audiences with that. But we do other types. You know, we did Veronica Guerin, we do movies that are about individuals or groups that will be forgotten in time, that should be remembered. Black Hawk Down. Those 18 men that died, their families thanked me.

Kevin Goetz (33:21):

That was Ridley.

Jerry Bruckheimer (33:22):

Yeah, it was Ridley.

Kevin Goetz (33:23):

And that was so powerful.

Jerry Bruckheimer (33:25):

And they'll never be forgotten now.

Kevin Goetz (33:27):

I was just gonna say, as you get older, do you find yourself being more mindful of the theme or what the movie is about as opposed to the commerciality of it?

Jerry Bruckheimer (33:39):

I don't think about commerciality. I just think about, I truly don't.

Kevin Goetz (33:43):

Never have?

Jerry Bruckheimer (33:43):

Never have. I just try to make movies that I love that I think other people will like, but I don't know what they'll like. We made movies that like Young Woman in the Sea, which is a small little tiny movie.

Kevin Goetz (33:57):

That was a very small movie, but a very good one.

Jerry Bruckheimer (33:59):

Very good movie. And I never thought it was gonna be this huge big success. I thought it was just a really wonderfully told story. So we made that. We made Veronica Guerin and Remember The Titans. And again about people that shouldn't be forgotten.

Kevin Goetz (34:17):

I love that. Well that's a great theme. Has there ever been a movie that got away from you that you were like, oh damn, I wish I made that.

Jerry Bruckheimer (34:25):

A lot of movies I wish I made, but I never had the opportunity. There was so many great movies out there. You said you can,

Kevin Goetz (34:30):

Was there one that you said either like, I don't know, let them do it or it just gnawed at you?

Jerry Bruckheimer (34:36):

Silence of the Lambs. Oh good. We had an opportunity to get involved and I didn't wanna live in that world. Ooh, because you live in that world. I love the movie. Very macabre. Yeah, but I just didn't wanna be there.

Kevin Goetz (34:48):

That's a great example. It's funny, I asked Medavoy the same question and his was Pulp Fiction. He had said he had just come back from Washington and they were giving him shit about making too many violent movies. Not him but Hollywood.

Jerry Bruckheimer (35:02):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (35:02):

And so he's like, well how can I make this? And he felt like that would've been one that got away. I wanted to segue to again, one of your passions and you made a joke of it that you're not very good, but hockey, you own a hockey team, right?

Jerry Bruckheimer (35:17):

I'm one of the investors of the Seattle Kraken.

Kevin Goetz (35:18):

Seattle.

Jerry Bruckheimer (35:19):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (35:20):

How did that name Kraken? Is it a Viking name or something?

Jerry Bruckheimer (35:23):

No, it's a sea monster is what it is. And it's kind of a fable in Seattle, in the Pacific Northwest about the Krakens and the Sea. So that was a fan favorite and that's how the name came about.

Kevin Goetz (35:35):

Did you play as a kid though?

Jerry Bruckheimer (35:36):

Yeah, I did. In Detroit, poorly.

Kevin Goetz (35:37):

You know, I'm from Jersey and hockey was not a great, but listen, we have friends like Brian Turner and Matt Ratt who you play with. Yes. Who've said you're pretty good, man.

Jerry Bruckheimer (35:48):

I'm not really. They're pretty good. I'm not.

Kevin Goetz (35:51):

Well anyway, I just wanted to say that clearly it's a love of yours and the fact that you, are you still playing?

*Jerry Bruckheimer (35:57):

I haven't played much since COVID. I haven't been here. We made four movies last year and they were all over four movies last year all over the place. And you show up, I'm there. Can't be there every day obviously, but I'm there. And then we made F1. It was a three year process. That's a three year process. F1. Yeah. Three year process. It took a year between writing the screenplay and getting F1 to believe we're gonna make a movie that's gonna make 'em look good. And then we had to convince all the teams. There are 10 teams, each team has two drivers. And every team thought they were gonna be the villain. And we had to convince him that it's not about that. It's about the competition between these two drivers, which is commonplace in F1.

Kevin Goetz (36:41):

And by the way, no spoiler alert, but I am gonna say that there is some nefarious potential action that's happening there so I can understand why they're cynical. It's a cutthroat and it's so expensive, the sport just to compete.

Jerry Bruckheimer (36:56):

400 million. Yes. You have no idea. When you watch an F1 race and you see the teams, yeah, you see the guys who changed the tires and the pit stops and you see the garage. But there are a thousand people back in either England or somewhere else who's monitoring everybody. It's unbelievable. And when you see the movie, we show you a scene where he goes to the factory where the car is made and you see all the people there. You can't believe it.

Kevin Goetz (37:22):

You know what excites me also, when I asked a question, the focus group, I remember this again a few months ago when we talked about it at the screenings. How many of you now wanna see an F1 event or do something with F1? And like the hands kept going up. Like this movie is gonna open up a whole new, I think subculture.

Jerry Bruckheimer (37:42):

Absolutely. I mean it's a very exciting sport. Very competitive.

Kevin Goetz (37:47):

And have you always been involved in racing? Like since Days of Thunder?

Jerry Bruckheimer (37:50):

I follow it. I wasn't a huge F1 fan until I got into this movie 'cause it was kind of distant for me. I gotta confess, neither was I, but now I am.

Kevin Goetz (37:59):

I followed every week and since you exposed me to it, I've been much more conscious of it. This is a very important sport.

*Jerry Bruckheimer (38:06):

Well these guys are going 220 miles an hour and then they have to hit a corner and break down to 50. And the ones who break at the last second are the ones who are the best drivers. So I guess the craftsmanship, I dunno what you call it, but the athleticism of these drivers is unbelievable.

Kevin Goetz (38:23):

I would say it's both craft and skill.

Jerry Bruckheimer (38:25):

And if you see them, they start when they're five, six years old in these little go-karts, and then they go to Open Wheel and then when they're 12 or 13, they go to Italy or some of where, where the big circuits are.

Kevin Goetz (38:36):

Well, Brad Pitt's character Sonny, it's in his blood. You get that?

Jerry Bruckheimer (38:40):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (38:41):

This is a man who does nothing else, wants to do nothing else. And I have to say, I relate to that in what I do. I've never wanted to do anything other than be in the movie business since I came out of the womb. Or maybe you could say I wanna be a performer more than I wanted to.

Jerry Bruckheimer (38:57):

Well, you are.

Kevin Goetz (38:58):

I am. You are a performer. An excellent one. <laugh>. So let's talk about TV before we break. Sure. You've had a little success in television. I'm being funny listeners, something called The Amazing Race. How many Emmys have you won?

Jerry Bruckheimer (39:14):

I think 10.

Kevin Goetz (39:16):

10 Emmys. Oh yeah, that's, that's nothing <laugh>. How about CSI?

Jerry Bruckheimer (39:21):

That was on for 16 years. And it's still playing. I mean it's still on, I don't know, Netflix or Amazon or wherever. It's still.

Kevin Goetz (39:28):

And your big one right now, Fire Country.

Jerry Bruckheimer (39:30):

It's a big success. It's so popular.

Kevin Goetz (39:32):

Yeah, it's unbelievable.

Jerry Bruckheimer (39:33):

It's process. I love process.

Kevin Goetz (39:35):

Do you love television as much as you love movies?

Jerry Bruckheimer (39:37):

Oh yeah. I love it. I'm not in on the day to day Sure. Of television.

Kevin Goetz (39:40):

 Well, you can't be.

*Jerry Bruckheimer (39:41):

Come on. I have a great team that does it. But I read every script, I watch every episode and we've done well over 2000 episodes.

Kevin Goetz (39:48):

That's astounding. So is Linda your wife, like, oh no, not again Jerry. No. Can't watch another one.

Jerry Bruckheimer (39:53):

No. I do it when I'm on the treadmill so she doesn't have to get involved. So I'm on the treadmill on the weekends and read scripts and watch episodes.

Kevin Goetz (40:02):

And I can tell by the way in which you said that the love that you still have. My final sort of probing here is about where we're going. My book is coming out in November called How to Score in Hollywood. My second book, my first being Audienceology. And it really talks about getting to the green light. It talks about using audience research or not and getting to those big decisions. Is the blockbuster alive and well?

Jerry Bruckheimer (40:34):

We'll find out.

Kevin Goetz (40:35):

Are movies, theatrical movies alive and well?

Jerry Bruckheimer (40:38):

I think so. I wouldn't be doing it if I didn't think so.

Kevin Goetz (40:41):

How have you embraced or come to terms with the streamers as such a presence today? In other words, how have you shifted or pivoted?

*Jerry Bruckheimer (40:51):

When you have an idea or a screenplay or something that you're passionate about and you want to get made. We have so many more outlets now than we had when I first started in the business. Good point. And so as a producer or as an actor or as a writer, you have opportunities that you've never had before. So if we get turned down by let's say all the major studios, we can go to Amazon, we can go to Netflix, we can go to all the different streamers and get something that we're passionate about, that they become passionate about.

Kevin Goetz (41:22):

Hmm. Beautiful. What are you most proud of?

*Jerry Bruckheimer (41:26):

That I'm still here. I'm still doing it and I love doing it.

Kevin Goetz (41:29):

It was a very fast answer and a very accurate one I imagined.

*Jerry Bruckheimer (41:33):

I think that I'm just proud of all the audiences over the years that got entertained by the movies that I've made. But I didn't really make 'em. I put the pieces together that got 'em made and the great actors, the great directors, the great writers that were fortunate enough to come together and make a movie that audiences embraced. And that's what I'm really proud of.

Kevin Goetz (41:58):

Well, all I can say is on behalf of the listeners of this show and audience members around the world, we thank you for entertaining us, for enlightening us, educating us, and for just being on a personal level, just a good friend and always up for whatever I ask you doing. And I'm a little verklempt when I say it because as I also get older, I start appreciating relationships and the depth and the authenticity of those relationships. And you're the real deal, man. Thanks so much again, Jerry.

Jerry Bruckheimer (42:31):

Thank you for having me. It's an honor.

Kevin Goetz (42:35):

To our listeners, I hope you enjoyed our interview today. I encourage you to watch many of the films discussed. For more filmmaking and audience testing stories, I invite you to check out my book Audienceology at Amazon or through my website at kevingoetz360.com. You can also follow me on my social media. Next time on Don't Kill the Messenger, I'll welcome originator and executive producer of the Batman and Batman-related movie franchise, Michael Uslan. Until then, I'm Kevin Goetz. And to you, our listeners, I appreciate you being part of the movie making process. Your opinions matter.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: Jerry Bruckheimer
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, Nick Nunez, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)