Luminate: Building Communities with Vop Osili – From Architecture to Advocacy

In this inspiring episode of Luminate, Sarah Hempstead, CEO and Principal-in-Charge at Schmidt Associates, sits down with Vop Osili, President of the Indianapolis City-County Council. Vop shares his extraordinary journey from a childhood shaped by his Nigerian heritage and Indianapolis roots to his impactful career in architecture, urban design, and public service.

Discover how his parents’ legacy of resilience and service influenced his mission to champion inclusive urban development, equity in governance, and bipartisan collaboration. Learn about Vop’s unique nickname, "Voice of the People," his path through architecture, his experiences as a missionary, and his dedication to fostering community stability and growth.

Tune in for insights on navigating the intersection of design, sustainability, and policymaking—and how creative leadership can build stronger, more inclusive cities.

Transcript

Sarah: [00:00:00] Welcome to Luminate, navigating the unknown through creative leadership. I'm Sarah Hempstead, CEO and principal in charge at Schmidt Associates. And today we have my friend and an inspiring guest, Vop Ozole, the president of the Indianapolis City County Council. Vop's journey is remarkable, spanning from architecture and urban design to public service and community advocacy.

Sarah: He's here to share his experience on inclusive urban development, equity in city governance, and the importance of collaboration across diverse communities. Bob, thanks for taking the time. 

Vop: It is awesome to be here. 

Sarah: Thank you so much. It is awesome to have you. I want to start out with your background, if that's okay.

Sarah: Tell me a little bit about your family's experience. I know they, the Nigerian Civil War was part of your family's story, and then you're fifth generation Indianapolis native at the same time. Tell me about those experiences and how they've guided you to where you are now. 

Vop: Alright, so my father came from Nigeria.

Vop: My father came from Nigeria in the late 1940s with a determination that he was going to go to Purdue. He wanted to be a civil [00:01:00] engineer and wanted to be on the sort of forefront of those individuals who were learning about the interstate transit system, transportation system. Nigeria was a British colony.

Vop: There was not much happening in England at the time. And he's, he, when his, when his other friends went to, to the UK, he was determined to come to America. My mother was at Purdue at the time, and my mother's from Indianapolis, and they met, and fast forward, and there was me. 

Sarah: So how did he hear about Purdue in Nigeria?

Sarah: This is for the Purdue marketing team, I'm sure, yeah. 

Vop: There was a book by a fellow by the name of, I think it was Jack McLaughlin, I think he was a civil engineering professor. And I don't know how my father got his hands on it, and so this is in the 40s. And he'd always wanted to be a civil engineer, and just reading about this fellow just incredibly, just inspired him.

Vop: And so he found a way to, to get to America. He was determined, he was not only getting to America, he was not only going to be a civil engineer, he was going to be a civil engineer. trained at Purdue.

Sarah: That's fascinating. 

Sarah: So then did your parents move here to [00:02:00] Indianapolis after Purdue? 

Vop: For a brief time, so they married while they were at Purdue and, uh, my father, they moved to Indianapolis from West Lafayette in the mid fifties and my father was always determined he was going back to Nigeria.

Vop: And so that was something that my mother had to come to respect. That when he was done, he worked for the State Department for two years, that he would be moving back to Nigeria because he wanted to be on the forefront of Nigeria when it gained independence from the British, which happened in 1960. Mm 

Sarah: hmm.

Sarah: Yeah. So, you moved back? He moved back? 

Vop: Yes, my mother and he, and then my older sister was born here in the U. S. Mm hmm. And so they moved back in the, sometime in the late 50s before independence. Mm hmm. Yeah. 

Sarah: So, when did you come back to the States? 

Vop: So, I was born there. I was born there somewhere in the, you know, Sixties.

Vop: So that's fine. There we go. We came back, my mother brought the three, her three children back. Because Nigeria in the first seven years and what was most unfortunate was that the people who decided they were going to secede were the people of my father's [00:03:00] ethnicity. The Igbos primarily. And he was determined that he was going to stay and provide whatever services he could to the war effort.

Vop: And my mother was more concerned. She was incredibly concerned about the welfare of her children. Sure. And so they agreed, they agreed, I will take the kids back to my own home. And what happens? So we ended up coming here to Indianapolis, where my mother grew up. And lived with my grandparents. My mother was allowed out of the country with 700.

Vop: And so she came to America with three children and 700. And it was, I can't even imagine the challenges that she faced, the uncertainties that she faced. And then when the war was over, my parents got back together and I and then my next older sister moved back to Nigeria. 

Sarah: They sound like really remarkable people.

Vop: They really were. I'm trying not to be biased, but I really think they were pretty amazing guys. 

Sarah: So in that birth order of three, where are you? 

Vop: I'm the last. You're the last. 

Sarah: And tell me about, tell me about VOP. Tell me about your name, because it's actually a nickname, right? 

Vop: It is a nickname. It's a nickname I've had since [00:04:00] I was about 18 months old, maybe less than two years old.

Vop: And my father just said, I just talk so much. And so the nickname was Voice of the People. And so I've been Voice of the People since I was like two years old. 

Sarah: So you were the favorite as the youngest child. I, my, 

Vop: no, I wasn't. No, I wasn't. One of my two sisters was, and I'm just, I'm just not sure which one, but I knew it wasn't me.

Vop: Because my parents were incredibly strict, you know. Fair 

Sarah: enough. Voice of the People, that's an amazing name. Do you think, I think about this a lot, do you think that that nickname influenced your 

Vop: I wonder sometimes, as I am where I am right now, in terms of just the politics, I do wonder if somewhere in there, there was this thing of, Be a voice for others.

Sarah: It's possible. Maybe that's, maybe that's part of it, and part of it is your parents sounded like they were pretty committed to making a difference in their communities too. Without 

Vop: question. And I think that those two married together. And there was something latent in maybe the name, the nickname, and they just came together sometime in the [00:05:00] early 2000s.

Sarah: So that drive to make a difference at one point in your life manifests itself in becoming a missionary Which I did not know that about you until I started doing a little bit of research for this conversation Tell me about that period in your life. What was your inspiration? What did you do? 

Vop: So it was during the time I was in college and when I was in college I joined a an evangelical Church lived with four of the brothers on In a duplex on top of the house where, the unit where our pastor and his wife and kids were.

Vop: And so it placed in all of us this desire to make a difference. And make a difference in places that were the, some of the most challenged on the planet. Now, when I told my father that I was going to Haiti, He said, have you forgotten Nigeria? We've got plenty of places that would welcome you. But it worked because my uncle did the very same thing.

Vop: My uncle every summer went to a place called Jacmel and taught [00:06:00] music in the same sort of way. And my, my journey was working at a place called the École Saint Trinité, which unfortunately I think it was destroyed in, in, in one of the natural disasters just a few years ago. But it was the renovation of that and the church that gave me a chance to use my, my hands, my heart on behalf of something bigger than me in a place where there were a lot of challenges.

Sarah: So how long were you there? 

Vop: I was there, I don't know, 3 4 months. 3 4 

Sarah: months? Yeah. Um, and, at some point, you pivoted from that international involvement to moving back stateside. What did you learn when you were traveling around the world doing work like that, that you can apply here? 

Vop: I was also doing that same sort of work in Pittsburgh, where I went to college.

Vop: Okay. At Carnegie Mellon. What I learned was using the skills and talents that you have. Alongside of your heart and working to [00:07:00] make a difference in places where people either did not have the means or the ability or the spirit or the belief in themselves to do that work and to show that it could be done.

Vop: And that is I think one of the, one of the things that I'm, that sort of underlies a lot of the work that, I think that is the work of a public servant. It is. to find out where the challenges are and to lend the hand that you can with what talents and the gifts and skills that you have to do the things for those individuals that have proven to be challenging for their qualities of life.

Sarah: The finding the need and doing what you can, that's, I love that. Because it's probably not everything, but incremental change. 

Vop: Yes. 

Sarah: So was it at Carnegie that you studied architecture? Yes. That's a wonderful program. Um, so you got, um, uh, undergraduate and undergraduate and a graduate [00:08:00] at Carnegie. 

Vop: So I got my undergraduate, um, a BR at Carnegie Mellon, and I got an MS at Columbia in urban design.

Sarah: In urban design. And then for a long time, you ran a firm doing, doing that kind of design. And I know one of the things that, uh, you all focused on was sustainability. So can you talk about how that's linked to, uh, Um, really doing the work of helping people because I think there's a through line there.

Vop: Yeah. Um, What was even more of a through line was having the opportunity to work, again, back overseas. So working in Nigeria, working in the UAE, working in Morocco. Now, you don't really need to help people so much in the UAE. Maybe 

Sarah: just help them with different things. Yeah, 

Vop: they're pretty good at like, got that part covered.

Vop: But, The work in Nigeria, it did take me back to those roots. And continue to give a global vision, a global kind of perspective on things. That people all over the world, regardless of their backgrounds, regardless of faith, [00:09:00] ethnicity, any of those things. That we're all, that we all have challenges. And that we've got to respect those individuals.

Vop: Regardless. They are deserving of respect. 

Sarah: When you think about places like the UAE, a through line there could be maybe equity in opportunities and equity in quality of design? Is that? 

Vop: It's an unusual place. And I'm not sure that they necessarily are fully engulfed in embracing in the whole equity part of things.

Vop: There's a great disparity in income and wealth. But in, in places, in, in places like Nigeria, one can definitely make a significant difference. 

Sarah: In places like 

Vop: Indianapolis. Some of the area of my own district right now, after decades of disinvestment and displacement, we have an opportunity, and hopefully we'll be able to get to this, we have an opportunity to provide a level of security that they may not have had before in terms of keeping their homes, in terms of keeping their [00:10:00] homes in the midst of.

Vop: New investment coming in and transforming and impacting the value of their homes, which in many ways should be a great thing. But also comes with a challenge of a higher assessment, which means then a higher property taxes. And how do we work through that? And we were able to work through that, actually.

Vop: I'm so very excited about that. 

Sarah: I do want to get into this a little bit more, because it is not that many designers who go into politics, frankly. You're a little bit of a unicorn that way. Things like zoning codes are are incredibly boring and incredibly important when you talk about the foundational work that builds better communities.

Sarah: So how, how do you see your role as a public official being able to help specifically from a design lens, which just not everybody has? 

Vop: The best way I think that I can answer that is recognizing a through line that we have in design. And that has to do [00:11:00] with sustainability, durability, endurance of a structure, endurance of a place, and the endurance of one's legacy, one's family legacy.

Vop: Having The stability in a community. So whatever we're going to allow to have happen, more and more we've got to ensure that whatever gets built is built with the idea of, let's not just make something potentially affordable, but let's make it durable and endurable. And how do we do that? Because that is a way of also showing respect to those individuals who may occupy those spaces.

Vop: A sense of permanence, that if this is where I've called home, that I can continue to call it home, and I can do it with a level of dignity. And the work, my first opportunity to get involved in politics was actually on the Board of Zoning Appeals. And understanding that some of the laws that we have in place right now, are fine laws, [00:12:00] but they're oftentimes the nuances and the granular, something doesn't quite fit into a certain kind of box.

Vop: And how do we, with compassion and an understanding, respect the laws that we have in place, because they were obviously put in place, I would imagine, with a great deal of thought. But how do we also provide some level of relief that we can accomplish, mutually accomplish some goals. All those have played a role together.

Sarah: So when you think about inclusive economic development and some of the kind of big picture projects that are happening in the city now. What are the few that get you most excited because they have potential, they have real potential to move the city forward? 

Vop: Oh boy. So it, it's a, I love that question.

Vop: It's a huge range. It goes from what does our skyline look like to the rest of the world. Um, as you're driving, you know, through or to Indianapolis to what does our community look like. Our communities look like, especially some of our older communities. Are we [00:13:00] investing in them? Are we doing the work that we can with infrastructure and roads and sidewalks?

Vop: Are we linking them with opportunities if there are challenges with the structure of a home? The condition of a home? Are we able to marry those so that it helps those units, those homes, what have you, to have an endurance, to endure for another 60 or 70 or 80 years. I think about the new hotel that's going here, the Convention Center Hotel.

Vop: It'll be beautiful on the skyline, and I'm, of course, incredibly excited about it. But I'm also, maybe even more excited, about a bill that got passed last year, Senate Bill 46, that allows local governments, for the first time ever, to mitigate property taxes in areas that are undergoing rapid reinvestment, 

Sarah: which 

Vop: means that long term homeowners have an ability to to have a slower rate of assessment growth than they otherwise would.

Vop: And I can go down really deep on this one because it is incredibly exciting. [00:14:00] And hopefully we'll get a chance to come back to it. But it's just that range. That gets me excited. The vertical structures get me excited. Because this is really exciting. An incredible city that we live in, with incredible people.

Sarah: I'm 

Vop: being fifth generation by the way, through my mother. An amazing love of the city that I have, and a knowledge of the city. And an understanding of its history, especially growing up in a household, or spending those formative years in a household with grandparents. It's just something else. 

Sarah: And that, that goes back to what you said in the beginning, your mom came with 700 and three kids, to an infrastructure, that existed that could help and support and I think the physical infrastructure goes directly to supporting the family infrastructures.

Sarah: Absolutely. Which is, that's pretty neat. They would be, I'm sure your grandparents would be very proud of you to do the work of continuing to invest in that. 

Vop: That's very kind. I appreciate 

Sarah: that. So let's talk about collaboration because one of the things that's neat about Indianapolis is, from my perspective, our, our city legislature It works pretty well across the aisle.

Sarah: And I [00:15:00] know that's important to you. And not always easy. That's exactly right. So tell me a story where you think we either did a really good job or you could just tell me a story where we didn't do so well. 

Vop: We'll go with the forward. All right. Positive. We'll leave the latter alone. Um, let's start with reentry.

Vop: It was a huge deal for me when I first got on the council. Sure. It was an enormous deal for me because I realized it's a lot of the people, there were so many individuals within a portion of my district, that had criminal records. And I didn't know it at the time, I'll admit my lack of awareness of it, that having a criminal record can really prohibit you from getting employment.

Vop: And it wasn't until I started door knocking and meeting people and hearing their stories And why they were at home on a front porch at 2 o'clock in the afternoon. I remember once asking a guy, hey, do you work the second shift? Totally without knowledge. And they broke it down for me. No, it's really hard to get a job because we have criminal records.

Vop: And then, [00:16:00] kudos to Mayor Ballard at the time. Because he was a huge advocate of let's change the system that we have. So, it was my first act, my first major act, and that was the creation of what's called Ban the Box. It was the taking off of, on application forms, that box that asks about criminal history.

Vop: And then going to various companies to ask if they'd be willing to do it. Citizens Energy, Carrie Likens was the president at the time. Going to the Pacers and talking with Jim Morris and both of them. Probably within five minutes saying, we gotta get rid of this box, this is terrible. But working with folks on the other side of the aisle, and it did help that Ballard was Greatly in support of this.

Vop: He was a Republican. I'm a Democrat. It was a great bipartisan effort, and that was very successful, and that's still in place today. I think about what I was mentioning about property tax relief, property tax, um, yeah, property tax relief, and knowing that friends who were on the council at the time when I first got on, and establishing those relationships, they were on the other side of the [00:17:00] aisle.

Sarah: Mm hmm. 

Vop: Went on to the state house and state senators and working with them, not just in my own chamber and our own council, but going to the state and saying, we need some assistance on this. It's a big issue, and it's not just a Marion County issue. It's a statewide issue. And them getting on board, Representative Cherish Pryor, worked incredibly hard to get it moving.

Vop: And then we realized that there's politics involved, right? There's politics sometimes. Politics and politics, sure, yes. You have to have sort of a bipartisan effort on that side over there too. And some, a couple of the older colleagues who had been Republicans, who were Republicans, helped us to carry it across and get it passed, as I said, last year.

Vop: And so when I think about the bipartisan thing and the importance of it, it, it does play a role here in Marion County 

Sarah: that we 

Vop: have to work on both sides to be successful. 

Sarah: So what do you think, what's the crucial factor? What's the critical? Secret ingredient that makes bipartisan initiatives 

Vop: work.

Vop: Communication, [00:18:00] remembering that on election day, we can be political, we can be partisan, but the day after, our job is to govern. And let's take politics out. Someone said something to me, and I'm sure you've probably heard the very same thing. Potholes in either Republican or Democrat. And so we have some basic things that we've got to address together.

Vop: And if we can look at the commonalities that we've got, the common challenges, it makes it a whole lot easier to put aside that this is a Republican or a Democratic initiative. It's a Marion County initiative. Let's do, let's work on it. Because whatever is affecting my district certainly has an impact in other districts around the county.

Sarah: You know that attitude of service back from missionary days, right, figure out what the need is. Yeah. 

Vop: And try and meet it. And try and be, try and let others probably see it from the same perspective. This is a need. And it is not a Republican need or a Democratic need, it's a resident need. [00:19:00] 

Sarah: So you've had a, an interesting career path.

Sarah: It's not one that you probably laid out as a seven year old kid. When I grow up, I want a first owner. So tell me about who are some of the, who are some of the mentors along the way that, that helped you discern? 

Vop: Out of complete respect, I'm going to say my father for one. Just an incredibly disciplined man.

Vop: And so full of integrity. I could tell you stories of things that he didn't do that a number of other individuals in his own position. He was Director General of Nigeria's Federal Ministry of Works, which handled all roads and infrastructure for the country. And how he just, I don't know, he just, a man so full of integrity.

Vop: The other, I've got to name my mom because, just solid. She was a bit older when she had me. And when I was a kid, I used to think, God, all my friends had moms in their 20s, right? My mother was in her 40s. And I just think, Oh, man, I could not have asked for a better mother. And as I grew [00:20:00] older, just realizing how grateful I am to have had someone who had maturity and who approached life.

Vop: with just this level of maturity. The other would be Julia Carson. A lady who had a heart of gold and a will of steel. But she was committed to her constituents. Unbelievably committed to her constituents. And loved them. But, and fought for them. And would do anything for the people that she represented.

Vop: And she had a level of integrity as well. It was just a, an unbending ness about her that was incredible. And, but the passion, I think it was the passion for her constituents that was just contagious. Absolutely. And she's the one, by the way, who encouraged me to get into politics. 

Sarah: Oh, that was going to be my next question.

Sarah: She said, this is, this maybe sounds like a, [00:21:00] you ought to use that voice of the people nickname and do it. 

Vop: Yeah, and she's the one who told me what office to run for. It was just amazing. She had plans. She said, I got plans for you. 

Sarah: And, and for those who, who don't know, we lost Julia. 

Vop: In December of two, 2007.

Sarah: And she had served in Congress for. 

Vop: Uh, she had served in Congress for 11 years, I believe. Yeah. 

Sarah: I was fortunate enough to have one lunch with her one time. Just a remarkable woman. 

Vop: She was honestly like a grandmother. The kindest, most loving person you can imagine. Loved her. 

Sarah: So if you were a young person listening to this, and they don't know what they want to do either, what advice would you give somebody?

Vop: If they had an inkling, what Towards one way, I mean, just towards something or, or, or another. I, I think the first thing would be, obviously, be true to yourself. I think it's a key for so much, that if there is something inside of you that says, this gives me joy, or this, I have a passion for this. I would encourage [00:22:00] them to pursue it, to hone their skills, whatever it might take, and not allow oneself to be discouraged by naysayers.

Vop: My father would not have made it to America if he had listened to a number of people. Who told him it was impossible that he could get to America. And, I never forgot that. Because he came on a cargo boat. He was determined. I'm coming to America. And got passage on a cargo boat. And so, I would tell those young folks, Believe in what you've got and make it better.

Vop: And then see what you can do for the people around you. Learn whatever lessons that you've got. But don't forget, it's not just about you. There are other people that you can also bring up behind you. 

Sarah: Absolutely. So when you think about those young people, they're going to be the next generation [00:23:00] of Indianapolis leaders.

Sarah: Where should they start to plug in? Where can they plug in? 

Vop: Uh, in those places where they have their passion. There's something so beautiful about Indianapolis. And I can say that having seen so many other places on the globe. There's a flatness to our, sort of our social structure. Which is so beneficial to getting engaged and getting involved.

Vop: I would say show up. Wherever it is, show up. Be, you will be embraced nine times out of ten. I can't say that about all places. But I can say it about Indianapolis. That you can, you know that whole thing about six degrees of separation? I would say at most we've got three degrees of separation, for real. I volunteer over here at Lighthouse Mission with my church, and I remember I was given a message at Lighthouse one afternoon, and I knew that I had to leave by a certain time because I was giving a speech with the governor.

Vop: And zipping [00:24:00] across from East Street, and All the way over to Capitol Avenue. It did occur to me that this is what Indianapolis is like. That you can have contact. with whomever you want. But the main thing is get involved. Don't wait. Get involved. I remember the reason I actually got to know Mrs. Carson is because I actually called her.

Vop: And I don't know if it was an election season or something. Just saying, how can I get involved? And she got right on it. I called, this is what I'm talking about. Nobody knew who I was. I was surprised. Nobody knew who I was. And she got this name, this VOP name, like who and what? And she called me. Either called me back or got on the phone and said this is what I need you to do.

Vop: I need you to show up at so and so's place at so and so time. If you want to get involved, that's how you do it. Are we good? Yep. Yes ma'am. 

Sarah: I would say I've also found that to be true. In any place where I showed up, people were glad to have you and put you to work. And then within a couple years, you're president of the Riley Area [00:25:00] Corporation, right?

Sarah: Because you showed up. You just kept showing up and helping. And it's a beautiful thing. That makes Indianapolis a really beautiful place. It's 

Vop: one of the reasons I love this place. 

Sarah: So I have to ask you an architecture question about why you love the place. We love the place because of the people. We love the people because of the collaboration.

Sarah: Um, but is there one space or place in Indianapolis that you just love because of this space? Oh gosh, 

Vop: yes. And I'm just hoping I don't offend other people who live in other districts. 

Sarah: Everything's my, everything's your favorite. I understand. But I'm making you pick one. Okay, yes. 

Vop: Everything is my favorite.

Vop: Riverside Park. I don't know. I can't get around it. I love it. When I was a kid, my mom would take me to Riverside Park. And maybe that was where the love started. We lived in Hallville, on Pershing, 10th and Pershing. But it was to Riverside Park that was just memories of it. The beauty of it. The size. The green.

Sarah: I actually still don't think many people in Indianapolis even know. How great Riverside Park 

Vop: is. Oh my goodness. Absolutely. I know. I know. 

Sarah: It's amazing. 

Vop: [00:26:00] Everyone listening, 

Sarah: go to Riverside 

Vop: Park. It is. It has so many new amenities. We've got the promenade. We've got the Tiger Memorial where the concerts, outdoor concerts are held.

Vop: And thank God for the endowment, Lilly Endowment, for helping to bring that back to life and make it usable and accessible. 

Sarah: That's remarkable. Yes. Absolutely. Excellent. So you've had so many hats. Architect, community advocate, council leader, missionary. As you think about what you do now, is it a Balance of all of these rules.

Vop: It is, it's a really tough balance because I still love architecture , and, you know, I work for a firm called, you know, Wilpert and 

Sarah: I've got some projects I could put you on this afternoon if you Oh, 

Vop: okay. Get me a laptop. , that comes with obviously the challenges of getting a project done, but there are a lot of initiatives, uh, that need, I won't say handholding.

Vop: But we've got to get them across the line. Affordable housing is one of those. Sustainable. A sustainable stream of, of, of funding. [00:27:00] To really attack where we are right now. Right. Where we have such a great deficit in accessible, available, affordable housing. And that's not something that one just wishes away or whatever it is.

Vop: You've got, you have to get involved. And that's, so it, it is, I'll be honest, it, it, sometimes it's, it's incredibly tough. 

Sarah: So what do you do to rejuvenate? What do you do to stay energized? 

Vop: I used to exercise, but that got to be boring. Yeah, I mean, why bother, right? It's probably actually reading. I finished a couple of books, um, just, um, I had to go overseas for, you know, for something, um, a couple of weeks ago.

Vop: And just being able to Just have some quiet and allow my imagination to be taken by the authors. I think that is, that's a really great time to recharge, a great way to recharge for me. It's actually to read. 

Sarah: So that's the perfect set up for my last question that I ask everybody, which is, Either, what are you reading right now, or what have you read that you would recommend everybody should read?[00:28:00] 

Vop: I just finished Behind the Beautiful Forevers about Mumba slum. 

Sarah: Hm. 

Vop: A fascinating book. Now, the next one you might think, those don't really work well together. The other, a book that I started as a kid, but never finished. It was The Godfather. And so I finished both of 

Sarah: those. You can learn about leadership in there too.

Vop: Ah, most definitely. And a sort of compassionate kind of leadership, depending on what side of But a book that I would recommend, I think, to anyone is probably my favorite book in the world. My favorite novel in the world. And that is The God of Small Things by Arundhati Roy. And the beauty of the writing, the sort of poignancy of the story.

Vop: It deals with everyday issues, but the setup is amazing. I just can't, I can't describe enough the beauty of the writing. Absolutely. And she's an architect, by the way. Great [00:29:00] recommendations. 

Sarah: Great book. Vop, thank you so much for joining us today. We could go on forever about policy. We'll have to bring you back, talk more about policy and zoning and all sorts of community building things.

Vop: I would love it. Thank you for the opportunity to be here with you. It's been awesome. 

Sarah: This has been Luminate, navigating the unknown through creative leadership. Thank you for listening, and if you haven't already, please subscribe to our podcast so you never miss an episode. And we'd love to hear your thoughts and feedback, so reach out on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn at Schmitt Associates.

Sarah: And until next time, keep navigating the unknown with creativity and confidence.