Foundations + Futures: 1980s with Wes Harrison

In this second chapter of Foundations + Futures: By the Decade, we step into the 1980s—cassette tapes, big hair, and a decade that wasn't afraid to reinvent itself. For Schmidt Associates, it was the era of finding direction.

Wes Harrison, structural engineer and longtime collaborator, joins host Sarah Hempstead to bring the decade to life. From hand-drafted drawings and eraser crumbs to a bold bet on a dilapidated building on Massachusetts Avenue, Wes shares the stories behind the firm's early momentum and the leader who made it possible.

Listeners will hear about:

• The IPS school projects that launched Schmidt Claffey's first big break and a K–12 legacy
• Wayne Schmidt's vision for an old building on Mass Ave that helped spark a neighborhood's transformation
• The Soldiers and Sailors Monument restoration and the controversy over tilted glass that ultimately became beloved
• The Tippecanoe County Courthouse renovation and the hidden floor discovered inside the walls
• The Indiana University Auditorium project and the bouncing balcony that became an engineering challenge worth solving
• Wayne's servant leadership quietly shaped a generation of young professionals

This decade was about direction, discovering what the firm was built for and building the trust to prove it. The 1980s gave Schmidt Associates its pattern, and you can still see it in every studio today.

🔗 Subscribe and follow us at @SchmidtAssociates on LinkedIn, Instagram, and Facebook. #WeAreSchmidt

Transcript

Sarah Hempstead: [00:00:00] Every organization has a moment when it stops asking, can we do this? And starts asking, where are we headed? Welcome to Foundations and Futures by the decade. I'm Sarah Hempstead, CEO, and principal in charge at Schmidt Association. In this series, we're exploring the story of Schmidt Associates one decade at a time through the people, projects and values that shape the firm as we celebrate 50 years of Schmidt Associates and Honor 100 years of Aerosmith's history.

In our last episode, we talked about how Schmid Associates got its start in 1976 with one chair and two employees. If you've not listened to that yet, I encourage you to start there. It sets the stage for the next chapter. So today we're stepping into the eighties cassette tapes, big hair and a decade that was not afraid to reinvent itself for Schmidt Associates.

The 1980s were when the firm really began to find its direction. Today we're gonna look back on some of the highlights from that decade from Mass Ave to Indiana University, and a few [00:01:00] important preservation projects along the way. And joining me today is my friend Wes Harrison. Wes worked alongside Schmidt Associates on many of the firm's projects during those years as the structural engineer.

While he was never formally part of the staff, he may as well have had a desk in the office. He played a role in many, if not most, of the projects the firm worked on at the time and mentored countless architects along the way. Wes, thanks for joining me, and let's start by telling us a little bit about your work and how you first got connected to Schitz.

Wes Harrison: Okay. Thank you Sarah, and the opportunity to join you today with this podcast. I started my senior year of college with the structural engineering firm. It was called Lynch and Campbell at the time, and they were just looking for a part-time draftsman. That was long before computers took over, and so I thought, well, I can draw.

I know a little bit about engineering, so that's what my major was in. So it ended up going from a part-time job to a [00:02:00] full-time job. 1980 when I graduated from college, was not the best in the economy. Any job was a good job at the time. Graduated in May, got married in June of 1980. And my full-time work began right at that time.

And the clients that our firm, Lynch and Campbell had at the time were relatively limited. We had maybe two or three regular clients and the rest were house contractors or smaller type projects. And de firm Schmidt Claffey at the time before Schmidt Associates was one of our clients. Wayne Schmidt and Don Claffey were both friends with John Campbell, who was one of the partners in our firm, and they had a relationship.

So that's how I began to get involved in Schmidt Claffey work. And the first projects that I worked on were with Ron Fisher. He was a year ahead of me in school and had [00:03:00] worked at Schmidt for about a year before I, I started. Wayne and Don got a contract with Indianapolis Public Schools. To renovate and add to IPS 94 and IPS 1 0 8.

And at the time, those were huge projects for us and huge for Schmidt Claffey too, because it began to build that resume that Schmidt Claffey certainly didn't have. I didn't have personally. So it was a great opportunity for myself and Ron to get to know each other and work with each other, and then just to be able to develop.

The comradery and the relationships between the two firms and be able to prove ourselves to not only our bosses, but contractors and other clients as well. So those projects continued through design through 1980, and I think they started construction in 1981. And Wayne was a great salesperson. He could sell an ice cube to [00:04:00] an Eskimo, and he.

Did a great job of promoting the firm and all he needed was that first break. And really, I look back and I think the IPS schools were obviously the. First big break as far as K 12 work goes, because if you had a good endorsement from Indianapolis Public Schools, that went a long way in other school districts too.

He did a good job with that. We finished those projects successfully along the way. There were other smaller projects that we did at the time. Schmidt Claffey was located at the, I guess I'd call it the south end of Mass Avenue at. Pen or what is that? Delaware and New York and Massachusetts Avenue. Kind of a triangle intersection in the Bud Neck building.

He and they had the top floor, as I recall, and there was maybe 10 or 12 employees, 8, 10, 12 employees at the time. Wayne's wife worked there. It was really a family affair and it was just a fun, [00:05:00] active place to be. Everybody worked on drafting boards. No computers paper everywhere. People still smoked in offices, which seemed nuts at the time with all that paper, but it worked out.

We didn't set ourselves on fire, but that was my first beginning with Schmidt Claffey at the time, as early in the 1980s, I think maybe 19 82, 83, as happens with a lot of partnerships, Don and Wayne. Decided to go in different directions. They had different visions for the firm, and Wayne wanted to take Schmidt Claffey in a direction that Don wasn't comfortable with.

So they ended up going in different directions, and at the time it became Schmidt Associates Architects, and that continued on until engineering was added in the 1990s. And. The term architects was dropped in. It's just known as Schmidt Associates Incorporated. 

Sarah Hempstead: So tell me, in the early days, like young firms have a [00:06:00] hustle and a vibe to them.

What, what was that like As Schmidt? 

Wes Harrison: They do it young firms and Schmid in particular. I don't know that there was anybody other than Wayne and Dean that was over 30 years old. So it 

Sarah Hempstead: a lot of experience, 

Wes Harrison: very little experience, but so much enthusiasm and energy to come in every day and invent or reinvent something.

And now we have the computers and you hit the erase button and the line goes away. When we would do that, back in the day, we had pencils and erasers and if we wanted to change something, which architecturals are known for, the eraser crumbs were up to your knees sometimes it seemed like. But that was great because it allowed everybody to have an opinion.

Wayne was great at engaging everybody's opinion. Uh, he might not like it, but yet he would allow you to express that opinion and that, I [00:07:00] think, gave. Everybody that worked there, the confidence that they were a part of the process. They weren't just working on one particular thing and just an assembly line thing.

Everybody had a purpose and a role and really felt like they were part of making a small firm. A great firm. So they all came into the office every day. Looking forward to that. 

Sarah Hempstead: So architects are known for changing things still? Yes. And they're still working with them on a hand-drawn project. A structural engineer who needs to respond to this change.

Like how did that collaboration work then? How does it work now where they're better, worse parts in both? 

Wes Harrison: It was interesting because when we would have meetings. You didn't have teams or zoom or anything. So you would gather around a table, roll out the big set of drawings and talk about where you were at in the process and what worked, what didn't work.

So you would make the marks right on the drawings and you better take good notes too. [00:08:00] 'cause what the notes you took was what you had to go back to the office with and make your changes with. If the architect had eraser crimes up their knees, the engineers usually had 'em up to their waist because we were erasing a lot.

But again, that was just the way we did it. We didn't know any different. Sure. And I'd say the process was much more methodical. The pace was much slower. I think he cultivated a culture where young architects could. Absorb not only architecture, but the engineering and the constructability of a project because of the pace was much slower.

And we would go out to the job sites together and look at what works and what doesn't work and learn that way. Now the process is much easier because we can communicate a lot better and a lot quicker, but that has also increased the pace there quicker too. Which that's just part of, now the people that have grown [00:09:00] up with that pace don't know any different, so it, it's fine for them.

But those of us who grew up, what I'll call the good old days, it's, it's a little tougher. But the process was, you would meet, you'd have big table, you'd roll out drawings and just go over a page by page, like page for page. But it was fun and they would make it fun. 

Sarah Hempstead: Seems like time to think is maybe, 

Wes Harrison: yeah, that's a good way to put it, because you had time to think and react and come the best solution, not just a solution.

And sometimes the best solution was three changes later, but as well as we got to the best solution, it was worth it. It was worth the process. 

Sarah Hempstead: Excellent. Well, let's talk about the city in the eighties. Mm-hmm. Because it was a very different place than it is now, and I think whenever we hire somebody new.

They moved to Indianapolis. I think it just always was exactly like it is right now. Today, Indianapolis was a really different place. Mass Ave was a different place. How did you see the design community pulling into Indianapolis and making it into what it's [00:10:00] today? 

Wes Harrison: Well, it was an incredible opportunity for the design community, architects, engineers, contractors, and we're all, I kinda lump all of us into the design community because Indianapolis was a.

Crossroads. They could have been the sleepy Midwest town forever or develop, and really sports promoted a lot of that. And when the Colts came to town, we all of a sudden became a big time city. So it gave us the opportunity to have a diverse level of clients. Now we're building apartment buildings, office space.

A lot of renovation back in the early eighties. Like I said before, the economy was not doing well. The Reagan administration had a lot of incentives for rehabilitation of old buildings, a lot of tax incentives. So I cut my teeth on renovating old dilapidated buildings. Wayne loved old [00:11:00] dilapidated buildings, so we think we did.

We more than looked at a bunch of those and about that time sch Fit Associates architects was outgrowing the Bud Neck space. Wayne. Loved this area of town. So he found what's called the will from MAR Building. As the story goes. It was the Issa owner had three kids, William Frank and Mary. So he called it the will for MAR building and, but it was before O'Malleys at the time was to the south and Mass Avenue was a wreck at the time.

But he had the vision to say. I think this area is gonna develop and I wanna be a part of it. And he did. He put substantial investment into a really rotten building and made it the home of Schmidt Associates. So over that time, Schmid began, get continued to grow, and he would buy the building next door or the building above.

And so eventually it's. [00:12:00] Pretty good size complex of buildings and even added to the north on Mass Avenue. It was just a vacant lot, world tires and people dump trash, and it was a mess. There was a nice window out looking out on that. But anyway, that got infilled with new office space for Schmidt, so he had a vision.

The office now opens up on Vermont Street, which used to be the main entrance, and now also goes to Mass Avenue, which is now the main. But in that time, I'd like to think that this little building was one of the starters of Mass Avenue renovation. And then before you know it, some of the buildings across the street begin to develop.

People would see that, Hey, I think there's an opportunity here and. Boy, once Starbucks hit town, that's all they needed. So that was the anchor from then on. 

Sarah Hempstead: Did people think it was crazy at the time when he bought this building? 

Wes Harrison: Absolutely. For two reasons. One, the neighborhood wasn't the best because it used to [00:13:00] be O'Malley's.

It's now Needler was at old Sears robot that was closed up. So it was just a vacant building, a huge building, and it's like, why in the world would you want to invest so much money? Anchor to that spot and call that home when it looks awful. But again, his vision, he could project into the future and see what it was gonna be or what it could be.

It turned out to be that way, and he was a big reason as to why Mass Avenue is what it is today. So without him and a few other people, it would've never turned out to be what it is today.

Sarah Hempstead: One of the stories that I have heard during that period was that he bought the lot where the 3 33 building is now, and that tried to get developed multiple times in the eighties. Is that right? 

Wes Harrison: Yeah. He and a, I believe a couple partners owned that piece of property and we developed [00:14:00] kind of the start of a project, some drawings for that.

Site. It's a crazy site because it's surrounded by odd shaped buildings on the west and on the east, and then Mass Avenue on the north, which is diagonal, and then New York Street on the South, but utilities running everywhere, and it was a difficult site to develop. I believe he was gonna do condominium similar to what it ended up being.

Again, he had the foresight to say, Hey, I think people, this is before people wanted to live downtown, but he said 

Sarah Hempstead: to say at the time, didn't. No one. 

Wes Harrison: Yeah, 

Sarah Hempstead: no one lived 

Wes Harrison: downtown. Yeah. Nobody was gonna live downtown either. But there were people like him who eventually thought, this is a pretty cool place.

Let's promote this. And Wayne was busy on other stuff and he eventually sold the property to another developer who then developed. Think it's called 3 33 Mass Avenue now. And it's a fantastic site that Schmidt Associates developed. I don't know [00:15:00] exactly what his vision, but the concept is exactly what he wanted it to be.

And then a few years later, the old fire station that was on Mass Avenue developed, and again, that was a associates project that worked with a developer that took over the whole block and turned it into housing. Once that housing bug hit downtown, it really took off so 

Sarah Hempstead: well and the firefighters Memorial Real, and that redevelopment takes us to the next big thing that changed in the eighties, which is we started doing more civic work and one of the most visible, certainly was the Soldiers and Sailors project.

Yeah, I know people remember that when fondly tell me a start at Soldiers and Sailors Project. 

Wes Harrison: It was a huge feather in Wayne's Cap, and again, he was awarded that project when the firm was maybe 10 years old, and to get. Pretty much the gem of the city awarded to you to a young firm, and I don't think Wayne was 40 years old yet.

I'm sure people thought who in the world thought that was a good [00:16:00] idea, but it, it worked out in the fact that he had such a passion for renovation. He understood the significance of that memorial piece and how it needed to sustain the test of time. And he took meticulous care of that. The drawings are extremely detailed and documented as far as what the existing conditions were and then what it was supposed to be when it was done, and a huge success at the end.

I know there was the observation deck, which I. If nobody's been up, if you all haven't been up there, you need to go up there. 'cause it's a fantastic view of, especially the circle, but the city in itself. But there was some controversy right when it first opened about some tilted glass that tilted out and some people, and, and it looks fantastic, but it was different and people thought, 

Sarah Hempstead: eh, 

Wes Harrison: I can't live with 

Sarah Hempstead: different, 

Wes Harrison: so they, there was some [00:17:00] criticism over that.

He weathered it, explained it, and everybody loves it now, and then several years later, then Lady Liberty, which I think is what the statue is on top is called, was deteriorating and needed to be repaired. Schmidt Associates, again led that process of lifting her up. Setting her down on the ground, getting her renovated, and then placing her back up on her perch up on top of the monument.

So 

Sarah Hempstead: that's very cool. 

Wes Harrison: Yeah. Yeah. So it was a neat opportunity for a young firm and again, went to full advantage of that and it's, it goes to show because he then received several state contracts after that. 

Sarah Hempstead: How did you get that project Wess? 

Wes Harrison: I went on a few interviews with Wayne and it was always interesting.

He would just take over a room and I'll give you a couple of examples, but it, one was, he had a kaleidoscope thing. He would turn that and [00:18:00] his, he would hand them out. This was school board interviews. He would hand 'em out to everybody on the school board and he'd ask them to turn it and he'd say, every time you turn that you see something different.

And he would say, this is what we see too. We see opportunities and we see something different. And, and with that crowded. Struck that they hired him for the project. We went to another interview, and again, Wayne just takes over a room and he's shaking hands and slapping people on the back. And one of the boardmen board members' name was Denver, but throughout the interview, Wayne called him Dallas and it was Luc.

We all knew it. And it was like it's the other city and. At the end of the interview, the guy finally said, you realize that's not my name? It's, yeah. And we said, ah, yeah, Denver, Dallas, whatever. He just, he just blew past, 

Sarah Hempstead: didn't get that job. 

Wes Harrison: But we didn't get that one. Somebody else got that one, but I don't think it was [00:19:00] because of that.

So it just wasn't gonna be the right fit. But it just showed how water would roll off his back if he didn't get this job. It didn't matter. 'cause there was another one waiting for him and he would go after it. So 

Sarah Hempstead: yeah. Eternal optimist. 

Wes Harrison: Yes. He was 

Sarah Hempstead: eternal optimist. 

Wes Harrison: Yeah. 

Sarah Hempstead: During the preservation led to a whole round of courthouse preservation and typic.

Kinu County is in notable when it was a hundred years old when we touched it. What do you think about when you think about the challenges of renovating a building like that? 

Wes Harrison: Yeah, it was a, a unique opportunity again for an, by this time, the firm was in its teens, but not very old to be taking on a historic structure like that.

And so. They, the commissioners hired Schmidt Associates to do a Reno, a complete renovation of the entire building, and it included, there were several historic paintings on the wall, on the plaster. That you just couldn't unhook 'em 'cause they were actually [00:20:00] painted on the plaster. So all those had to be protected.

Much of the woodwork was historic and all that had to be protected. But there were, I don't believe the entire building was air conditioning. There was just air conditioning units. The entire mechanical system needed to be replaced. It was very old. The infrastructure, as far as the electrical goes, all had to be redone.

We were coming into the computer age. So you needed a. Bajillion more outlets and data outlets and everything to be able to accommodate that. And so there was an inventory taken of the building and Dean led that process. And it was interesting because building itself had great bones, but when you would start to peel back, for example, they would start to peel back some wallpaper and you would find the original.

Or what you assumed was original wallpaper that they would, they, once they got to that layer, they were able to restore a lot of that in a lot of places. And then [00:21:00] one of the levels had a lower ceiling. And once we popped the ceiling in there, we found out that there was an additional floor that had been put in.

I'm not sure what year it had been put in. The more, more we talked, we thought we can. Add more square footage to this building within the building. So we added additional floor level in some of the spaces and gave them a lot more floor space, which county government always needs. So it was interesting to be able to do that without adding to the footprint of the building.

But it, it was a difficult project just in the fact that you wanted to protect her as much as you could, and Dean was always interesting person to help you. Appreciate what you were working on. So he knew I didn't like heights very much, so he said, Hey, follow me one day. And we went up to the tower, and I don't know if you've ever seen Tippy County Courthouse.

It's very tall. 

Sarah Hempstead: Very 

Wes Harrison: tall, and it can [00:22:00] see over the Purdue campus, basically. So if you go all the way up the tower, there's a little spiral stair that takes you up and then a couple vertical stairs that take you up even higher. And then you open a hatch and then there's that little catwalk. Up outside that, and I thought I was shaking like a leaf, but after you get up there, it was, oh my gosh, I can't believe you allowed me to do or forced me to do it.

I'm glad you did. But it, it, it was really cool. And Dean was fantastic at, at kind of promoting the building itself, helping you love the building with him. That's right. 

Sarah Hempstead: That's pretty cool. 

Wes Harrison: Yeah, it's pretty cool. 

Sarah Hempstead: Let's pivot from talking about Purdue to talking about Indiana University Auditorium Project.

Yeah. And that preservation project was there, which. The story that I've heard is one of the big problems that kinda required that preservation was that when people would dance on the balcony would bounce. Is that true? 

Wes Harrison: It is true, yeah. And part of that restoration was the owners in Indiana [00:23:00] University wanted to.

Minimize that with a cantilever balcony like that, you can't really get rid of it completely. But they wanted to dampen it as much as they could. So in order to dampen that, you actually are adding weight to that, or ballast to um, hold, hold, make it more difficult for it to flutter. Basically. There was an engineering firm that specializes in that and decided where these added weights were to be located throughout.

The balcony and our process was to make sure that it could actually support the load, and it helped. And I looked for fluttering floors so I could still feel a little bit of it, but it was much, much better what it was. And I, I think it was to a point where it was scaring people that it moved so much.

But that project in itself, again, was an upgrade of all the MEP disciplines. And I remember in order to get proper ventilation, airflow through there, all of the diffusers for airflow are under the seats. So if you look under your seat there, there's [00:24:00] probably a diffuser that's blowing fresh air on everybody.

But it, that was fun because you could stand on the stage and just think of how many. Performers have been on that stage and that that was a pretty cool opportunity 

Sarah Hempstead: and it's still a stunning, stunning place of watch 

Wes Harrison: to go f Fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. He, this original designers a plus on that one. They did a great job.

Sarah Hempstead: Absolutely. So through that decade, you were growing up as a young structural engineer starting to run your own firm too. What did you learn from working with Wayne or from him working with you? What did be. 

Wes Harrison: It was interesting because my business partner, Paul Brum Levy, and I took. Ownership in 1987, January of 1987, and I was in my late twenties at the time and really had no business experience, had no idea what I was doing business wise, but engineering wise, we had built a little bit of a clientele.

The person that we [00:25:00] bought the firm from took Ill and passed away shortly after that. So I always tell people, excuse me, that Paul and I were almost like business orphans in a way. And, but I admired what Wayne was doing. His personality and mine were completely different, but I thought, yeah, the guy seems like he knows what he's doing, so if I do what he does, only in our firm is much, much smaller.

Seems like it's gonna be successful. So we. Moved our firm downtown, but it was more centrally located for our employees at the time, and that that was a good move. But the types of projects that he would go after were also the types of clients that we wanted to have, and he was a great mentor to me, and I was able to tell him that later in, in our careers because I wanted him to understand how much he meant to our firm because he didn't.

Tell me what to do just by [00:26:00] observation and him doing the right thing. It was very helpful to us and it helped us to be successful too. Yeah, 

Sarah Hempstead: and the, I think the foundational values between the firms are very much in alignment, have always been and very, I haven't been here for, I wasn't here, I missed the eighties.

Well, 

Wes Harrison: and the culture starting, 

Sarah Hempstead: but that culture of servant leadership that one cherish and brought all these. Maybe unspoken, but definitely felt 

Wes Harrison: well. We learned that from him and it's, it's easy to do. It's just a focused, purposeful thing that you have to do and it not only helps your firm, helps your employees, helps your clients, I think it helps your family too.

So it's all plays a part in making you a better person. And he played a big part in that. 

Sarah Hempstead: Yeah, absolutely. When we really look at the eighties and changing who we were, discovering direction, working with universities, working on preservation, working with communities, you see the DNA, the pattern of what Schmidt is today.[00:27:00] 

Building trust, functioning outta servant leadership. I think that's stayed. So when you think back on that time, what, what stands out to you most? 

Wes Harrison: The culture that was built in. Schmidt Associates firm. And what we tried to mimic in our firm too, I think, is that you, your client, is extremely important to you.

And you gotta let them understand that they're extremely important, treat them that way from start to finish. And what Wayne always tried to do, and it's especially important in our business, is have repeat customers. If you have. Repeat customers. It makes your promotional bill much less expensive.

They're great promoters for your firm. They appreciate everything you do. And then, and your clients will have change in leadership too, but excuse me, if you're able to mentor [00:28:00] them and help them understand your culture, then you have a continuing clientele. And I used to know what the percentage of repeat clients that you had, and I'm sure it's still very high.

Sarah Hempstead: 85%. 

Wes Harrison: Yeah. Yeah. Which is fantastic. And that's rare in our business, but it, it also played a part in our little business too. 'cause we can't, as a structural engineer, you're not going door to door selling steel beams. You gotta. A limited amount of clients. So it was important for me to understand that you take care of the people that you have, and he was a really good example of doing that and went out of his way, did things that were unnecessary, but he saw the big picture.

If I do this, they'll appreciate it and it'd be a good thing. So yeah. 

Sarah Hempstead: I think with, that's gonna be a wrap on the eighties. Although I really should have had us dress in the eighties. That would've been a lot of fun. That's 

Wes Harrison: right. 

Sarah Hempstead: Next time. Next time. And this has been awesome. Thank you for the time. I appreciate it.

Oh, absolutely. I, I should have asked you about mentorship too, of all the stuff that might be a separate podcast. Okay. [00:29:00] Thank you for taking the time to look back on, on the eighties with us, and next time we're gonna step into the nineties, a decade built on momentum and relationship. Carrying the firm to the next chapter.

Thanks everybody for listening, and if you're enjoying series follow foundations and futures by the decade on your favorite podcast platform, and connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn at Schmidt Associates. Thanks for listening.