Devon MacDonald's Journey to $100K & Media Agency Leadership| 100 Ways to Make $100k

In this episode, we feature Devon MacDonald, CEO of Cairns Oneil, who shares his unique journey from computer programming at IBM to leading a thriving media agency. 

Discover the strategies, challenges, and pivotal moments that shaped Devin's career and propelled his company's growth from 30 to over 60 employees.

Transcript

00:00:00:01 - 00:00:18:20
Speaker 1
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of 100 Ways to Make 100 K the show where we're on the hunt to find 100 different ways to make 100 grand in a month. I can't wait to introduce you to a very special entrepreneur, the CEO, not founder of an advertising agency called Cairns O'Neil. Now, when he started as CEO, there were 30 employees.

00:00:19:02 - 00:00:35:13
Speaker 1
Now they're sitting a little bit above 60. Now we're going to dive into some of the things that he's implemented, some of the things that he's learned, and a few of the chapters along the journey that took him here and took the company to where it is today. So, ladies and gentlemen, I can't wait to introduce you to our very special guest, Devin McDonald.

00:00:35:23 - 00:00:37:12
Speaker 2
Hello. Thank you for having me.

00:00:37:13 - 00:00:50:19
Speaker 1
No, it's an honor. And thank you so much for taking the time. Maybe you could give us a little bit of an intro on who who is Devin McDonald and bump into you in an elevator? You know, maybe we're walking down St Lawrence Market, and I'm like, Hey, man, nice glasses. Like, what's your name? You know, tell us a little bit about you.

00:00:50:22 - 00:01:09:17
Speaker 2
Sure. Well, Torontonian husband, father working in advertising, but an innately curious person who loves to observe things, try things, do things. Also an avid cyclist and I enjoy exercising with.

00:01:09:22 - 00:01:12:01
Speaker 1
The farthest bike bike riding going on.

00:01:13:03 - 00:01:17:16
Speaker 2
In a single setting. Yeah. Oh, probably 200 kilometers. Wow.

00:01:17:17 - 00:01:35:23
Speaker 1
Okay, so Devin's ready to go the distance? Yeah. If. If we've learned one thing about him is that now, thank you for. For taking the time to be here. It's truly an honor. I'm excited to dive into some of the chapters and some of the things that have happened along Devin's journey that make the Devin that we see today.

00:01:36:14 - 00:01:44:07
Speaker 2
It's great. Well, I'm excited to share with yourself and the listeners and, you know, to teach people that there's many ways to to make money. Yeah.

00:01:44:16 - 00:01:46:18
Speaker 1
Do you remember the first time you made a hundred grand in a year?

00:01:48:03 - 00:02:15:21
Speaker 2
Well, as a person, I do. And so I started my career a while ago. And when I did that, I was a computer programmer and I did database design and other coding. And I started working for consulting firms. Mm hmm. And I moved to IBM. Um, near the end of my time in the technology world. Mm hmm. And, yeah, that was a big deal.

00:02:15:22 - 00:02:17:20
Speaker 1
What year was this at the time? Roughly?

00:02:17:20 - 00:02:23:06
Speaker 2
That would have been, uh, probably 2005. 2004. Okay. When I did that.

00:02:23:09 - 00:02:24:05
Speaker 1
All right, I was, like, nine.

00:02:24:15 - 00:02:25:12
Speaker 2
Yeah, you were nine.

00:02:25:12 - 00:02:26:03
Speaker 1
Maybe ten.

00:02:26:03 - 00:02:28:16
Speaker 2
And I was, you know, 19 years younger.

00:02:28:17 - 00:02:29:01
Speaker 1
Okay.

00:02:29:13 - 00:02:29:19
Speaker 2
Um.

00:02:30:03 - 00:02:31:17
Speaker 1
And so still a great, by the way.

00:02:31:20 - 00:02:32:16
Speaker 2
Yeah. Thank you.

00:02:32:17 - 00:02:39:09
Speaker 1
Yeah. Like I was saying earlier, if you are, you know, if you're ever considering some other opportunities, I got some some modeling that you might be able to do.

00:02:39:09 - 00:02:58:07
Speaker 2
Very, very generous of you. Yeah. But no, that was a it was a it was a big threshold, you know, in, in, in income. Mm. And helpful to young kids and or about to have a start a family and I knew I needed to make more money. Wow. So Yeah.

00:02:58:14 - 00:03:04:16
Speaker 1
And was that the first time that you felt like, okay, I have to do more? Or do you think that was something that was always in you?

00:03:05:13 - 00:03:29:15
Speaker 2
Uh, great question. I think it's something that's always been in me, But absolutely. As I got married as I was, we were planning to have children. Okay. Some things that are coming up are expensive, and I need to generate some money and earn more. But I've always been a pretty driven individual and pretty focused on developing myself and working hard.

00:03:29:21 - 00:03:41:23
Speaker 2
Mm hmm. That comes from a family. I come from a family with a solid work ethic and was was taught to work hard and to apply myself as often as I could to succeed.

00:03:42:06 - 00:03:54:20
Speaker 1
Now, before we dive too deep into Devin's story, maybe for some of the listeners, you could just give us kind of like an overview of what Karen's on your is what they do, and then we'll continue on the story because they're probably gonna be listening for like an hour. So yeah, want to give them a little bit of it?

00:03:55:04 - 00:04:25:14
Speaker 2
Sure thing. Yeah. So Cairns and Neil as an independently owned Toronto based media agency. Mm hmm. There's many different agencies and so a media agency focuses on the placement of advertising within media properties. Could be a television commercial, could be a tick tock, could be an ad, could be search. Okay. And so we partner with brands in Canada who want to get their message or their offer or their promotion out to different audiences across the country.

00:04:25:17 - 00:04:45:08
Speaker 2
Mm hmm. Being independent. We are independently owned and operated and founded by Cairns and O'Neill and myself as the leader of the company now and as a part owner of the company. We look to expand our services with clients as the needs of media change, which seems like every.

00:04:45:08 - 00:04:59:03
Speaker 1
Day, Every day. And it's crazy. So you didn't just go from IBM to IBM in a boat to have two kids to the CEO of a company with 60 people. So let's let's let's take a little bit of a backtrack and.

00:04:59:12 - 00:05:11:18
Speaker 2
Yeah, there was a few steps there. And so I loved my time at IBM. Mm hmm. And some of the biggest challenges and most complex problems I've ever faced in business were there.

00:05:11:18 - 00:05:21:06
Speaker 1
Yeah. Do you think some of those problems that you were solving back then are still like the solutions in the way that you went about finding the solutions are still, you know, critical to for you to this day.

00:05:21:18 - 00:05:43:03
Speaker 2
Yeah, the consultant problem solving mindset, there's a distinct method and formulas that you learn about how to approach problem solving, how to ask questions and how to support clients interests. And there are lessons that I can apply and to our business today and to our clients and to our teams. Yeah, and have really helped me a lot.

00:05:43:03 - 00:06:01:02
Speaker 1
Now, what would you say? Some of those are some my brother and he's just graduated high school. Yeah. And I, I don't know how valuable. The things that I learned in high school were, but I know there was a couple key takeaways. So, for example, like Y equals M X plus B, right? Like or FedEx. That formula alone has like powered my whole life.

00:06:01:10 - 00:06:19:02
Speaker 1
Right. It's like everything is a function. If you could understand the inputs, you could get the outputs right that you change X and you change your outcome. And like that was probably one of the most impactful things, I think, from high school that I learned. But I'm curious, there was tonnes in university tons in my first job, but what was were some of those key takeaways that you.

00:06:19:03 - 00:06:48:08
Speaker 2
IBM and being consultant strategy consultants, you learned frameworks. Okay. And there could be gap analysis as a framework, it could be change management and how to approach those pieces. It could be implementation of a complex problem or system. Mm hmm. And they're very transferable across solutions and across industries. But the most important thing I realized and learned is, frankly, with technology, anything is possible.

00:06:48:20 - 00:07:01:10
Speaker 2
You can connect any item with any other item through technology. And it it really resonated with me and it helped me understand that really anything is possible.

00:07:01:14 - 00:07:12:12
Speaker 1
Hmm. Interesting. And so I carried I know it's a little bit of a left turn, but like, how did having kids can change your motivation and change like your drive and your hunger and your ambition?

00:07:12:22 - 00:07:38:14
Speaker 2
I mean, as any parent will tell you, more than they had ever imagined, it changes your whole world and whole sense of purpose in becoming a parent. Yeah. And in making your own mistakes and successes and thinking, Oh, my goodness, how am I responsible for someone else? I'm barely responsible myself. This is crazy. Yeah, but it's one of the most rewarding things I've ever done in my.

00:07:38:18 - 00:07:51:14
Speaker 2
My kids are getting older now and into university and whatnot and making some of their own mistakes and learning their own lessons and also venturing out in the world on their own. So it's a very, very proud moment for sure.

00:07:51:18 - 00:07:53:22
Speaker 1
Congrats. It sounds like they're almost out of production line.

00:07:54:07 - 00:08:18:14
Speaker 2
Almost, almost. But it's funny because as they prepare for school or their careers, talking to them about my career or my wife's career or their mum's career. Mm hmm. You know, there's so many decisions and so many opportunities in front of people. And one mistake I think that happens in education is that people are forced into extreme early.

00:08:19:10 - 00:08:46:03
Speaker 2
Whereas I'm sure as you go through the podcast and talk to different people, many people don't have a solid long term plan about their career because there are so many opportunities that come your way. Mm. And I think that's the most important thing too. I mentioned earlier about being curious and about wanting to learn. Mm hmm. And if you keep your eyes open wide enough, you'll see opportunity all the time.

00:08:46:15 - 00:09:05:21
Speaker 1
Everywhere. Interesting. Well, we'll dive into some of the opportunities that you see in the marketplace, but we'll wait till we get closer to the current chapter. What were some of the opportunities that you were seeing back then? So and what did you think about the future for Devon? You know, maybe even before you graduated, I'm guessing you studied some form of business I.T..

00:09:06:09 - 00:09:12:20
Speaker 2
Some so. And in university, I took political science and then I took computer programing.

00:09:13:00 - 00:09:13:10
Speaker 1
Got it.

00:09:13:18 - 00:09:23:19
Speaker 2
And so political science is really the structure of how other political science is really understanding how different structures make decisions.

00:09:23:20 - 00:09:24:03
Speaker 1
Mm hmm.

00:09:24:15 - 00:09:43:23
Speaker 2
And it's very helpful for me in my work today when I'm evaluating a company and understanding how budgets are set or do they have a CMO, where is it reporting to their VP of Marketing? Reporting to the VP of Sales? Mm hmm. Those structural changes and startups tell us a lot about how a company is going to behave.

00:09:44:04 - 00:09:44:18
Speaker 1
Interesting.

00:09:44:18 - 00:10:13:09
Speaker 2
Now, computer programing and getting into that was a real hard skill. I realized I needed a hard skill when I graduated from school. Ontario was in a recession, Canada was in a recession. And so I took the time to go back to school again and to learn a hard skill, which was programing. And it was something that came pretty naturally to me, so much So when I graduated, it was from a college when I graduated that hired me to teach the course that I've just taken.

00:10:13:11 - 00:10:13:23
Speaker 2
Wow.

00:10:13:23 - 00:10:15:08
Speaker 1
Like, right away. Yeah.

00:10:15:14 - 00:10:25:02
Speaker 2
Okay. And that was I was pretty fortunate because I had another role with a consulting firm. So I was able to work during the day at the consulting firm and then teach at night on the weekends.

00:10:25:03 - 00:10:25:12
Speaker 1
Wow.

00:10:25:22 - 00:10:29:03
Speaker 2
And so that's about having opportunity and taking it.

00:10:29:05 - 00:10:42:14
Speaker 1
Why were you working so hard back then? Like we were talking about your ambition changing once, once kids, you know, started becoming a possibility and like a real consideration. But if I think I'm assuming at this point they weren't around.

00:10:42:14 - 00:11:11:21
Speaker 2
Goodness, no. I was single. I was living in the city. My wife and I were just starting to date them and I was playing golf and going out and cycling. I've always been cycling, but it's funny because I was thinking about this earlier today when when I was growing up, my parents were both professionals. But there was something that I would ask for, something and they would say, Well, Devin, when you're when you're 25, you have a place of your own.

00:11:12:16 - 00:11:35:15
Speaker 2
You can do whatever you want, but until then, you follow our rules. Wow. And so it was annoying at the time for sure. And I said that to my kids now and they're annoyed by it. Yeah, but it taught me and motivated me to own my own home. And so I did by the time I was 25. So that's why I was working as hard as I was.

00:11:35:15 - 00:11:40:12
Speaker 2
Got it. And doing what I could do to save money. It was cheaper to buy a property then.

00:11:40:14 - 00:11:41:07
Speaker 1
Still hard, though.

00:11:41:11 - 00:11:47:22
Speaker 2
Still hard. Yeah. You know, relatively. And, you know, it really motivated. Motivated me to do that.

00:11:48:02 - 00:11:54:16
Speaker 1
That's really cool. So now this what that happened, I'm guessing when you read the first hundred K in a year and in IBM, for example.

00:11:54:20 - 00:11:56:13
Speaker 2
No, that was before before IBM.

00:11:56:19 - 00:11:57:05
Speaker 1
Okay. Okay.

00:11:57:07 - 00:12:10:06
Speaker 2
Before. And, you know, I of course, I've had lots of help and people help me all along the way. But, you know, I. I wanted to make as much money as I possibly could and work as hard as I possibly could as well.

00:12:10:07 - 00:12:14:05
Speaker 1
So where did that where did that end up taking you? You know, so I put it in. I'm hoping next.

00:12:14:15 - 00:12:27:16
Speaker 2
Yeah. So I worked with that consulting firm first was called EADS, and then I. I ran another company that provided technology services to not for profits in Canada.

00:12:28:09 - 00:12:30:23
Speaker 1
Okay, so you were working and running another company at the same time.

00:12:31:14 - 00:12:32:12
Speaker 2
Different new job.

00:12:32:13 - 00:12:32:23
Speaker 1
New job.

00:12:32:23 - 00:12:55:22
Speaker 2
Okay. New job. Got it. And I got to meet and work with hundreds of organizations across the country in understanding what they were doing and help them with their technology needs, whether it's primarily hardware and software, but networking, some consulting and helping them helping them set up. Because I realized that access to technology is important for success. Mm hmm.

00:12:56:14 - 00:13:01:02
Speaker 1
Still a still a very prominent theme, you know, throughout life. Even more so.

00:13:01:07 - 00:13:25:07
Speaker 2
Even more so. The divide and access for people and and having the knowledge about how systems or machines work is critical to survive as a person in navigating, whether it's government systems or banking or whatnot. Yeah, but it was from that role that I moved into IBM and, you know, my my salary increased and it was a it was good timing.

00:13:25:22 - 00:13:44:15
Speaker 2
It was good timing. Like I said, the work I did at IBM was the most interesting stuff I did. And the people I got to work with were incredible practitioners and professionals, but it also required a lot of travel. And I need a little more consistency in my life and, you know, to stop flying as much as I could.

00:13:44:15 - 00:13:47:19
Speaker 2
Flying could be very glamorous for work. Yeah, but at first.

00:13:47:19 - 00:13:49:05
Speaker 1
The first three times, the.

00:13:49:05 - 00:14:07:08
Speaker 2
First three times after, you know, I don't know how many segments I would have had in a year, but a lot. Yeah, it gets tiring. And so I needed a regular job and I had lots of friends. I use air quotes, regular job. I have lots of friends in the marketing industry and I told them I was thinking about it.

00:14:07:08 - 00:14:19:12
Speaker 2
I said, Devin, you would love it. And I worked for a creative agency that was digitally focused. But projects producing content for digital and working on digital systems and data systems.

00:14:19:13 - 00:14:21:19
Speaker 1
So this is what, ten, 15 years ago?

00:14:22:15 - 00:14:26:04
Speaker 2
This is 15, 17 years ago. Okay, On.

00:14:26:04 - 00:14:36:10
Speaker 1
There Now, what is digital look like at that time? Because digital at this time looks like the phone screen or the computer screen that people are watching this on. Yeah, but at that time, what a digital.

00:14:36:19 - 00:14:58:10
Speaker 2
At that time, digital, what was really being talked about is how information is going to be consumed mostly through video. Okay. And that was the beginning of that. And it might seem strange to say that now, but we have 5G and 5G now we have five Internet or whatever not available. But before streaming video and video content was was difficult to access.

00:14:58:11 - 00:15:18:17
Speaker 2
Mm hmm. And so the idea that, oh, a real estate agent should put a YouTube video about their home that they're selling was new. It didn't exist. Mm hmm. YouTube was becoming a new platform, but vertical video or phone based video, I don't even think it existed.

00:15:18:23 - 00:15:19:20
Speaker 1
No, not at all.

00:15:20:02 - 00:15:44:08
Speaker 2
And then so that would have been new then. But and then also starting with lead gen online and getting people to go to websites, everyone built a website for everything. Yeah, it was a little clunky for sure, and the digital ecosystem that a brand would have was complex, messy and expensive to operate because it was so many disparate pieces.

00:15:44:09 - 00:16:07:12
Speaker 2
Mm hmm. But a fascinating group, because in my time at IBM, my clients became sales and marketing departments. Mm hmm. That's when I was first exposed to it. To sales and marketing. Mm hmm. And in going into a creative agency, working with marketing departments was a natural step for me. And getting to be closer to clients and closer to problem solving.

00:16:07:18 - 00:16:11:15
Speaker 1
Okay. Interesting. So what? How did you like that agency world?

00:16:12:15 - 00:16:22:20
Speaker 2
It's completely different. Yeah. I mean, I wore a black hair, blue suit every day and with a white shirt. I still have a lot of black and blue suits. Yeah, but just out of habit.

00:16:23:09 - 00:16:26:13
Speaker 1
And now you go. Coalitions cooler shirt.

00:16:26:13 - 00:16:39:13
Speaker 2
Cooler shirts, that's for sure. But I loved it because the energy and creativity around was so inspiring to see in a whole different realm of professional, in a whole different world that I hadn't really been exposed to.

00:16:39:14 - 00:16:39:23
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:16:40:11 - 00:17:07:13
Speaker 2
But it was there that I first got my taste of immediate agency because I was always hunting for data and always hunting for information in my time at IBM. But it was that my time at the creative agency where I first learned about media agencies because I was always hunting for information. Hunting for data. And the media agencies at the time would come out with Excel spreadsheets that were hundreds of lines long and were on version 71 of a blocking chart.

00:17:08:12 - 00:17:34:22
Speaker 2
And I looked at that and said, Oh, that's opportunity. And I just parked it in my head for for down the road. I did leave that firm and went to a different creative agency, which was fantastic and even more focused on creativity, less on the digital side of things. Again, worked with some amazing professionals. Yeah. So leading global organization.

00:17:34:22 - 00:17:50:14
Speaker 2
And so you get to work with leading global brands who are operating in Canada. Yeah. And from there I had an opportunity to go to a different agency, to be a part of the leadership of the strategy team and to create a new agency.

00:17:50:18 - 00:17:51:06
Speaker 1
Interesting.

00:17:51:06 - 00:18:23:09
Speaker 2
And that was a real opportunity and again, you know, I've I've jumped through my career a couple of times, but my first wave was in technology. My second wave was in creative. And my third wave is now in media creative technology. Yes. And so I was able to be in a great position where a storied network agency was looking to innovate and was looking to add services into their into their offering.

00:18:23:11 - 00:18:23:22
Speaker 1
Interesting.

00:18:24:03 - 00:18:44:23
Speaker 2
And I had the opportunity to work with a brand that was being a work with an agency brand that was very successful in the United States. Mm hmm. Work with them for a few months in their office. Mm hmm. And build their same model here in Canada. Interesting. So I got to be a bit of an entrepreneur within an ecosystem and entrepreneurialism or an incubated offering.

00:18:45:01 - 00:19:07:23
Speaker 2
Yeah, we had access to this network's clients and talent and people and resources and accounting and whatnot. But I could just start. Mm hmm. And you start by selling one project at a time, one client at a time. And I was very proud of the work that we did. And, you know, we started as one, and then we hired one other person.

00:19:07:23 - 00:19:16:23
Speaker 2
And by the time I left, which was a short 18 months later, unfortunately, but we had grown to 18 people. Wow. And we were generating 100 a month.

00:19:17:02 - 00:19:18:09
Speaker 1
Nice revenue. Nice.

00:19:19:05 - 00:19:29:05
Speaker 2
But it was a great opportunity to learn how to run a company within an operating company, which is a different within a holding company.

00:19:29:06 - 00:19:29:20
Speaker 1
Interesting.

00:19:29:21 - 00:19:55:21
Speaker 2
Which is a different structure in advertising. Yeah. Um, but I really enjoyed it. I worked for some great entrepreneurs there and learned so much from them. The people who founded the US company? Yeah, the people who founded it and sold our company within Canada. I got to work with these entrepreneurs and really learn some great business sense and skills from them about how to set up a company and how to run a company.

00:19:55:22 - 00:19:57:02
Speaker 2
It was tremendously helpful.

00:19:57:03 - 00:20:14:21
Speaker 1
How did that shift like your perspective at the time? Because you're you're in IBM, you're in these other agencies working. And I remember one when I was working, right, Like I had this perspective on work and what it should be and what it was. And like, I knew everything, right? Cause I'm like 18, right? You know, everything on a team.

00:20:14:21 - 00:20:26:21
Speaker 1
You know, everything. I'm sure your kids know everything right there on that. We're probably geniuses. Not to downplay anything, but, like, seriously, they're probably as smart as just, like, my brother. And it's like you're 18, you know, everything.

00:20:27:00 - 00:20:29:03
Speaker 2
They're very smart. It's just how they apply themselves.

00:20:29:04 - 00:20:51:02
Speaker 1
Exactly. Yeah. So I had this perspective, and then when I got into the world, you know, I kept seeing this, seeing things as one way. And then all of a sudden I'm like, Oh, man, I'm. I'm doing my own thing, right? Yeah. And then my perspective changes. And then. And then now I start thinking back to all these other experiences, and I'm like, I could have approached them differently.

00:20:51:03 - 00:20:51:23
Speaker 2
Mm hmm.

00:20:51:23 - 00:21:02:21
Speaker 1
I learned some cool lessons here that now I'm applying to what it is that I'm doing. Hmm. Let's see how I take these going forward. You know, how did your perspective kind of shift as you went through some of these roles? What were some of those things that you learned?

00:21:03:14 - 00:21:27:18
Speaker 2
Um, I've always been a leader, and whether it's in sports or organizing trips for friends or work in leading teams or groups, and I had run a company earlier, as I mentioned, but running this agency really helped me grow and see the potential of, of, of how to build something yourself.

00:21:28:06 - 00:21:28:21
Speaker 1
Interesting.

00:21:28:22 - 00:21:36:17
Speaker 2
Which really appealed to me. And I had learned from these other entrepreneurs who built their own agencies into these huge organizations.

00:21:36:17 - 00:21:38:00
Speaker 1
Yeah. And they're just regular people, right?

00:21:38:05 - 00:21:59:02
Speaker 2
Regular people who are trying hard and applying themselves. Hmm. And I recognized in myself that, Oh, yeah, I want to run my own place, but I have more to learn. Okay? And the reason I left, even though we were successful, is I had an opportunity to join a different media agency. Okay. A large.

00:21:59:02 - 00:22:03:09
Speaker 1
So you're just, like, getting poached by a media agency from media. Media placed in media place.

00:22:03:22 - 00:22:29:18
Speaker 2
I was getting poached a lot. Yeah. And it's difficult to leave. But I saw opportunity and I always thought about what could I learn? Mm hmm. And I recognized early in my self and my career that I really loved two things. And that's leading and learning. Mm hmm. And I realized I was able to reflect, to say, Well, if I was frustrated at work, I would ask myself a question.

00:22:30:10 - 00:22:48:19
Speaker 2
Are you leading or learning? Hmm. And if I wasn't, I knew it was time to take the phone call from the recruiter or whatnot, or try something else. And so while I was running this agency and back to my aha moment, looking at those spreadsheets with version 71.

00:22:48:21 - 00:22:50:12
Speaker 1
Still looking at spreadsheets to day.

00:22:51:08 - 00:22:54:18
Speaker 2
I realized that all the data was with the media agencies.

00:22:54:19 - 00:22:55:07
Speaker 1
Okay.

00:22:55:13 - 00:23:06:23
Speaker 2
And so I had a chance to join one of the world's leading media agencies to be the number two in the company and to take over that company in Canada. Eventually, I made a succession plan.

00:23:07:00 - 00:23:07:20
Speaker 1
This is Mindshare.

00:23:07:23 - 00:23:29:00
Speaker 2
Mindshare. Okay. Great organization. Yeah. And my wife at the time said, Wait, you run a company? You like that? Mm hmm. You're going to quit. You're going to do go to industry you don't really know about. Mm hmm. And you're not going to run the company. I'm like, Yeah, that is the plan. Because I want to learn more.

00:23:29:01 - 00:23:43:05
Speaker 1
Yeah, but when you when you look on paper, like, that's a step backwards. So step backwards, you know, how, how did you process that and what framework did you use? Well, I guess it was the AM I learning or am I leading framework? Yeah. You know, that really was the basis of that decision, right?

00:23:43:08 - 00:24:08:00
Speaker 2
It absolutely was. And so I have I still have lots to learn and I had lots to learn in that role, but I knew I could learn even more. Okay. Moving to the media side and I saw in media again so much opportunity with technology and in data to work with a firm like Mindshare that has incredible global credentials and clients and incredible clients in Canada and teams.

00:24:08:00 - 00:24:11:09
Speaker 2
Mm hmm. Was an opportunity I couldn't pass up.

00:24:11:10 - 00:24:21:11
Speaker 1
So there's a role cut, right? Like, there you go. From leading to now, you know, being number two. Number two, right? Sure. Was there a pay cut at the time?

00:24:22:06 - 00:24:27:10
Speaker 2
No. Okay. Increase. Okay. Okay. Different size organization.

00:24:27:13 - 00:24:27:22
Speaker 1
Okay.

00:24:27:23 - 00:24:32:16
Speaker 2
So a pay increase and again, being able to learn.

00:24:32:18 - 00:24:34:23
Speaker 1
Would you have taken it if it wasn't a pay increase?

00:24:35:22 - 00:24:36:20
Speaker 2
Yes.

00:24:36:21 - 00:24:37:06
Speaker 1
Okay.

00:24:37:16 - 00:24:38:07
Speaker 2
I would have.

00:24:38:07 - 00:25:04:15
Speaker 1
Interesting, because I'm almost curious around that thought of like. Okay. Like, even right now, for example, like, I'm not qualified to make it like in a job sense to make the money that I'm making now. Yeah. Like, there's no job that I would apply for that's going to pay me as much as whatever. Right. And but now I'm like, Oh, there's so many things that I want to learn, but and I won't have access to that information unless I do.

00:25:04:22 - 00:25:14:19
Speaker 1
Unless I take a pause. Unless I you know, there's there's sacrifices, right? Like it's like, what are you willing to give up? And I'm just kind of curious about, like, that stage of life in.

00:25:15:01 - 00:25:24:21
Speaker 2
Well, it's difficult. Yeah. Everyone needs more money. Yeah, everyone wants more money. I certainly had employees, past employees who are watching this and say, Yeah, I quit for more money.

00:25:24:21 - 00:25:27:10
Speaker 1
I quit cause I got to pay someone offering me more. Right.

00:25:27:10 - 00:26:00:22
Speaker 2
But I think the the way I looked at it was total opportunity. Okay. I really mean that. Okay. Money is important. Yeah, I needed money. I have kids and mortgage and all that stuff. Yeah. Still do. Um, and, um. But I could learn more. I could grow my career more. And I knew if I, you know, with the understanding technology, understanding the creative world, and if I could learn in the media world, I would really understand so much more about marketing, so much more about business.

00:26:00:22 - 00:26:02:04
Speaker 2
And it would really help me.

00:26:02:08 - 00:26:10:12
Speaker 1
Okay. And when you say help you in the long run, did you have kind of like an objective that you were going after? Was there a like a North Star for you want.

00:26:10:18 - 00:26:11:17
Speaker 2
To run my own company.

00:26:11:17 - 00:26:13:00
Speaker 1
During. Okay. Okay.

00:26:13:02 - 00:26:35:14
Speaker 2
Got it. Yeah. And to yeah, that would be that would have been it. But I wouldn't I didn't know what field that would be in. I didn't know what type of company. But I knew that by learning more with such a large scale organization and in a high profile position and then moving into that CEO role, yeah, I knew I could learn a ton.

00:26:35:18 - 00:26:39:05
Speaker 2
Okay. And my opportunities would be even wider.

00:26:39:06 - 00:26:46:23
Speaker 1
Yeah. So talk to me about that. And now you're you're you're a guy who's been elected CEO not once, but whatnot. Twice.

00:26:46:23 - 00:26:47:08
Speaker 2
Twice.

00:26:47:14 - 00:27:06:00
Speaker 1
So, like, number one, it doesn't really happen by accident. But what what was that kind of like a lot of the your I think you're the second guest on the show so far that's been elected CEO. Mm hmm. There's Lori Nicole from Second Harvest. Shut out. Lori, if you're watching, she's awesome.

00:27:06:00 - 00:27:06:22
Speaker 2
Great organization.

00:27:06:22 - 00:27:24:04
Speaker 1
Great organization. And she took it from low multi-millions of pounds of food. And the most recent year they did £75 million of food donated in one year, which is like more than 100,000 tons of food in a day. When you think about it, it's wild, right?

00:27:24:08 - 00:27:29:23
Speaker 2
Well, while they can accomplish so much and wild that there's so much need. Mm hmm.

00:27:30:15 - 00:27:41:13
Speaker 1
And I think they're doing great work, but. So what was it at Mindshare when you started in that role? And like, I think you mentioned that that organization was massive, right? And multinational. Yeah.

00:27:42:01 - 00:27:44:18
Speaker 2
And so I ran the Canadian Division of Mindshare.

00:27:44:19 - 00:27:46:13
Speaker 1
You started the Canadian Division? No, no, no, no.

00:27:46:17 - 00:28:09:04
Speaker 2
I ran. I mean, it's a a very storied company. Okay. It would have been about 20 years old. Oh, when I. When I joined. Mm hmm. And both Mindshare and it. Cairns. O'Neill. Mm hmm. What I really benefit was from was generous leaders with their time who wanted me to succeed and move into the leadership roles. Okay. And so I had that at Mindshare first.

00:28:10:03 - 00:28:24:12
Speaker 2
And leaders within the the global organization and my boss in Canada who wanted me to succeed. So they gave me time. I took extra time to teach me. And I was about different processes and components of the business.

00:28:24:12 - 00:28:49:01
Speaker 1
And is that is that the only thing that I needed to like? How did they express that? You know, like so Austin especially now, I just hired my first manager, right? And it's very easy to point out things that go wrong, but it's not necessarily easy unless you're cognizant of it to compliment people on the things that they do well, especially like, let's say they do 100 things and like 95 of them are right and there's five that are wrong.

00:28:49:01 - 00:29:05:14
Speaker 1
It's very easy to say like, hey, these five things need to be adjusted, but there's still so many things that they did well. But if if they don't hear it, you know, they might not necessarily know the good job that they're doing, for example. Now, you just mentioned that you had some leaders that, you know, kind of believes in you.

00:29:05:14 - 00:29:20:01
Speaker 1
They they they let you know some of the things that, you know, they want. They they're grooming you, you know, to turn and have like some form of transition or path for sure. You know, how did they express that and how do you express that and others?

00:29:20:17 - 00:29:38:09
Speaker 2
Well, you said a word compliment, and I'm going to use the word compliment in a different way. Okay. Tell me, because in interviewing for the the mind chair role, yeah, I actually stopped during the interview process to say, wait a second, I don't know anything about what you do or your world. Why do you want to hire me?

00:29:38:10 - 00:29:41:11
Speaker 2
Yeah, there's so many fantastic people in this industry.

00:29:41:13 - 00:29:43:06
Speaker 1
I mean, you do have good glasses, though, right?

00:29:43:06 - 00:30:02:10
Speaker 2
So glasses. That helped. Yeah, but they said. Well, Devon. Yes, we have lots of people who know a lot about media, but we don't have anyone who knows what you know. Okay? And you can complement our team and help our team grow. Mm hmm. And that to me, was an invitation for me to learn from them and from them to learn from me.

00:30:02:10 - 00:30:06:00
Speaker 1
And what did you know at the time? Who was it to Technology.

00:30:06:00 - 00:30:23:11
Speaker 2
So back in the technology side and the data side of things and how to connect people together. And that consultant mindset of problem solving. Okay. And so as a manager, what that taught me and what my advice to you, too, is to recognize that everyone has different skills. You have to appreciate them.

00:30:23:12 - 00:30:23:21
Speaker 1
Mm hmm.

00:30:24:03 - 00:30:44:09
Speaker 2
And make the most out of them. Mm hmm. No, two people are the same. Yeah. Skills, mindset, personality or anything. Mm hmm. And so when you recognize people's strengths and find them and utilize them, you'll be way better off as a as a person, boss, employee, company, everything.

00:30:44:16 - 00:30:50:20
Speaker 1
Hmm. And I that's that's. That's really cool. So thank you for sharing. Sit around my chair.

00:30:51:01 - 00:31:01:13
Speaker 2
And that mind share. And I knew for my my plan to really succeed as I became CEO, I really needed to learn the financial side of the business.

00:31:01:13 - 00:31:04:16
Speaker 1
And how did you know that wasn't just a good gut feeling?

00:31:05:00 - 00:31:25:14
Speaker 2
My gut feeling, you know, was a bit of a blind spot for me. Okay. I'm good with math and good with data, but finance is a whole other world and a whole other career. Yeah. It was a large organization. And, you know, in terms of total sales that would move through that company in a year, all media and whatnot would be about $500 million.

00:31:25:15 - 00:31:34:11
Speaker 2
Okay. Now, a lot of that is from media purchases and our revenue from that would be in, you know, the mid double digit R mid eight figure million.

00:31:34:11 - 00:31:37:17
Speaker 1
So what does this mean to media purchases?

00:31:38:01 - 00:31:52:16
Speaker 2
So we're buying media mindshare is buying media on behalf of clients. Okay. So we have media budgets. Some clients, it could be 100 million. Some clients it could be only 1 million. It's weird in media when you say only 1 million. Right. Okay. Um.

00:31:53:01 - 00:31:53:16
Speaker 1
Small for us.

00:31:53:23 - 00:32:16:05
Speaker 2
Yes. We had great financial systems and great financial operators, and I was fortunate to have as a business partner, a great CFO, a chief financial officer, who we both recognize. We could learn a lot from each other. Mm hmm. I from him. And learning about financial world. And he for me and learning about the technology and product development world.

00:32:17:05 - 00:32:26:13
Speaker 2
And we became great partners and in building services and adding clients at Mindshare. Mm hmm. And had I had a lot of fun and a lot of success.

00:32:26:14 - 00:32:28:11
Speaker 1
There you go. Back with implementation again.

00:32:29:03 - 00:32:47:14
Speaker 2
Yeah, well, um, as a as a leader on, you can't do it alone. Mm hmm. You need to have vision. You need to have purpose. Mm hmm. And you need to operate by a set of values. But you cannot do it alone. You need the whole team to be.

00:32:47:14 - 00:32:48:17
Speaker 1
With you 100%.

00:32:49:13 - 00:33:13:20
Speaker 2
And so I really. I really learned a ton there. And also, while I was there, I had the time. I had the chance to work with an executive coach and leadership coach who helped me tremendously with my mindset, learning, learning more empathy and learning how to be a better leader, really. So it was a it was a great unlock for me.

00:33:13:21 - 00:33:34:08
Speaker 1
So how do you be a better leader? You know, and I know it's a very vague question without context. Mm hmm. Right. But let's say, for instance, your kid was running. You know, they just got hired as a manager for the first time, fresh out of school. I know that's not very likely. Usually start in some form of technical role, but let's say they were to work in some form of management type of role right in there.

00:33:34:08 - 00:33:46:14
Speaker 1
Like I was just a star on my team. How, you know, I was once a great individual contributor and I'm transitioning into a leader. What types of things would you suggest there?

00:33:47:05 - 00:33:52:16
Speaker 2
Well, one, it's very important to recognize just because you're a great practitioner doesn't mean you're going to be a.

00:33:52:22 - 00:33:54:11
Speaker 1
Two completely different skills.

00:33:54:12 - 00:34:13:00
Speaker 2
And unfortunately, what happens in advertising way too often is great practitioners are promoted to be leaders and they're terrible leaders. It happens all the time. Okay. And so there are distinct skills that you have to develop over time. I still have a lot to learn. A leader. Okay. And I have a lot of growth to accomplish still. Mm hmm.

00:34:13:21 - 00:34:33:15
Speaker 2
And I want to get better. So if you're becoming a manager for a first time. Mm hmm. Don't be a jerk. You know, you might want to be hard on people. You might want to show them who's boss. Yeah, It's not going to work. Yeah, they still have their own problems. They still have their own opportunities to still their own skills.

00:34:33:23 - 00:34:49:14
Speaker 2
And you were just in their shoes a couple of weeks ago. Yeah. Take it easy. Okay. Yeah. Yes. You have to bring people. You have to bring people along. Mm hmm. And no matter where you are in an organization as a leader, whether you're running it or a first time manager. Yeah.

00:34:51:17 - 00:35:04:21
Speaker 2
You have to. Yeah, You have to guide people. Mm hmm. There are lanes or guidelines for any role. Yeah. But you also have to give people opportunity and hope to do more.

00:35:05:05 - 00:35:16:10
Speaker 1
Now, you mentioned this. This executive coach ties some crucial things, right? They were very instrumental in your career at that time. What what do you think you were before that executive coach and what do you think you've turned into after? I'm like, Why?

00:35:17:03 - 00:35:44:15
Speaker 2
At times I shudder to think about what kind of leader I was before. Okay, I do that. Yeah, I'm very driven. And I was I would be a driver type leader before. You're kind get things done no matter what. I might still be that now. I'm not sure. But it really helped me working with the coach. Really helped me see other people's perspectives and how they might approach things and to think about that first.

00:35:45:21 - 00:36:11:06
Speaker 2
And it's funny, in consulting or in advertising and working with clients, I do that all the time and thinking about a client's problem from their perspective and what they're facing. Mm hmm. But I hadn't really done it much as a manager, and it really helped me build better relationships with my teams and people. Yeah. And really taught me to think about, well, how can I help them achieve their dreams and goals?

00:36:11:08 - 00:36:16:16
Speaker 2
Mm hmm. And when I know what they are and they achieve them, things are going to work out a lot better.

00:36:16:19 - 00:36:17:04
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:36:17:16 - 00:36:31:11
Speaker 2
And so as I lead now, I view my role. And what I do is to help people achieve their ambition and to help them accomplish whatever they want to accomplish.

00:36:31:12 - 00:36:46:23
Speaker 1
What about from the CFO? What type of lessons did you walk away with from there? Cause I know you mentioned you guys were complementing each other really well. You taught him a lot about the product and like, from, like, a product mind and a product lens. And he taught you a lot from, like, a finance lens and the CFO hat, Right?

00:36:47:01 - 00:36:55:09
Speaker 1
Like what were some of the things that you still remember to this day? You were just printing out spreadsheets. I'm sure there's something on that spreadsheet that you're like, Man, I remember Mark from like, from accounting time.

00:36:55:09 - 00:37:01:14
Speaker 2
Yeah, Yeah, for sure. So, yeah, I like to like to work with paper to really absorbs him.

00:37:01:14 - 00:37:05:13
Speaker 1
And I'm not judging you run a digital agency or paper. That's okay. Yeah, that's fine.

00:37:05:17 - 00:37:23:15
Speaker 2
Fine. But what? Well, I was able to learn from the CFO with I would say, well, I want to here's what I want to build or heros want him to make. Okay, how do we do that within our financial. How do we do that within our budget and how do we manage the resources we have to accomplish this?

00:37:23:16 - 00:37:32:10
Speaker 2
Mm hmm. Oh, here's how you do that. He had the answer every time. Really? Or had the problem solving mindset to work things through.

00:37:32:10 - 00:37:32:19
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:37:33:06 - 00:38:00:15
Speaker 2
And to in managing a budget within a large multinational organization, there's a lot of expectations to manage. Yeah, there's a lot of signals you can send inadvertently or deliberately in budget management that are you have to be very careful with. Okay. And he was able to help me learn those pieces and navigate them and be really generous with his time.

00:38:00:15 - 00:38:02:23
Speaker 2
And we just really enjoyed working with each other.

00:38:02:23 - 00:38:22:12
Speaker 1
Yeah, I think I think that's been a theme so far from what you've kind of shared is the generosity one with people that are, you know, at different stages of their journey and being willing to share. So again, I appreciate you taking the time and being so generous to share with us the future generation, LinkedIn, Instagram, all the platforms.

00:38:22:14 - 00:38:28:05
Speaker 1
Yeah, right. So this is going to be really course we're putting this conversation in a bottle and saving it for the future. You know, it's fun.

00:38:28:08 - 00:38:35:04
Speaker 2
Yeah. And so my my time at Mindshare came to an end and I had a new opportunity to join Cairns.

00:38:35:11 - 00:38:45:01
Speaker 1
Well, that must have been wild. Running like a multi. A figure like operation. Right. And. And at the time when you joined Cairns on your.

00:38:45:10 - 00:38:45:16
Speaker 2
What.

00:38:45:17 - 00:38:48:11
Speaker 1
Was kind of like the size and comparison.

00:38:49:12 - 00:39:10:02
Speaker 2
It'd be a decimal different. Okay. And more or less. Yeah. And even the the type of money at mindshare that would be flowing through it's hard to have context as an individual person when you think about managing your bank account. Yeah. So the type of money that flows. Mm hmm. You lose perspective on what the money really means.

00:39:10:03 - 00:39:15:18
Speaker 2
Mm hmm. The money is very important, but it's. It's hard to understand it.

00:39:15:19 - 00:39:16:05
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:39:17:01 - 00:39:44:17
Speaker 2
And so, yeah, Cairns and Neil's a smaller organization, but I saw here for me an opportunity to build. Okay. And when I joined Cairns, O'Neill was moving into its 11th year. Great reputation, great staff, clients. And I signed that a foundation to to add to. Okay. But the scale difference was different. Yeah, it was, you know, much smaller.

00:39:44:20 - 00:40:21:22
Speaker 2
Mm hmm. Um, I and I enjoy that. And I realized for myself as an individual, I'd worked at huge places like Mindshare, like BBDO. Mm hmm. Like IBM, large international companies. That helped me a lot. And I learned a lot. Mm hmm. But I realized I didn't need that in my career to be successful. Mm hmm. And going to an independent, I would much rather work at a place where I could create and implement my own vision with my team and with my clients.

00:40:22:17 - 00:40:30:20
Speaker 2
It's very fulfilling to me. And, yes, it's risky. Um, it's very fulfilling. And but to me, I find it very rewarding.

00:40:31:00 - 00:40:40:09
Speaker 1
How did you. This place. They found me. Okay. Yeah. So what is this? People just line in your length. Indians all day, basically. Yeah. Okay. And.

00:40:40:11 - 00:40:46:13
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. And I knew of them by reputation, but not as individuals.

00:40:46:13 - 00:40:46:22
Speaker 1
Okay.

00:40:47:11 - 00:40:55:02
Speaker 2
And it was during COVID. So weird time. Yeah, we had meetings in parks on foldout chair nights, and those are.

00:40:55:02 - 00:40:55:20
Speaker 1
The best meetings now.

00:40:55:23 - 00:41:18:03
Speaker 2
They were great. Bring a coffee and just talk. Mm hmm. Um, but they wanted to hear from me. They were looking for new leadership in their company. Mm hmm. As they moved on to new phases of their career, which is retirement. Mm hmm. And they were looking for someone who could create and manage a vision to, uh, continue the legacy of the agency.

00:41:18:05 - 00:41:40:06
Speaker 1
So when you. When someone brings you in, or let's say you bring someone in to be a leader. Mm hmm. Had the existing leader has a vision, you as a new leader, have a vision? Mm hmm. How do you start the discussion to merge and compromise? Mm hmm. Uh, you know, because I'm sure you had a place where you wanted to take it, and, like, you're in the driver's seat now, so you're driving.

00:41:40:06 - 00:41:49:16
Speaker 1
Mm hmm. They still had a vision. They still had a destination that they wanted to go. And together it might be worse together. It might be better, you know, hopefully better. Like, we better cross.

00:41:50:03 - 00:42:13:13
Speaker 2
That much better. But so the most important thing is that you're right. Those things do not always line up. Yeah. But you really have to uncover what people really want. Okay. And what do they really want to accomplish or really want to do? Mm hmm. And what is their vision? Mm hmm. The mistake a lot of leaders make coming into a company and thinking they need to blow it up.

00:42:13:18 - 00:42:37:08
Speaker 2
Yeah. Turn it around. Fire, everybody. Yeah. Change everything. Mm hmm. It's a critical mistake that so many people make in that there are great people in those organizations or in this organization or anyone going into a company or team. Mm hmm. Who built it to what it is? Mm hmm. So you need to respect it and understand it first before you change anything.

00:42:38:04 - 00:43:00:23
Speaker 2
And even just explaining myself, explaining that to the the founders, Karan's and O'Neill. Mm hmm. Um, you know, I think went a long way. But I also explained to them I had to produce a plan for them about what I would do. Wow. And that led into a lot of discovery for me to understand. What do they have in place?

00:43:01:14 - 00:43:18:01
Speaker 2
What systems do they have? What does reporting look like? What is a strategic plan look like? And understanding. Okay, where are they? And what do I think I could do with it? And then articulating it back to the founders to say, well, here's what I would do. Well, here's the timeframe. I would.

00:43:18:01 - 00:43:22:12
Speaker 1
Do it. How long was this process like? Because this is part of an interview, right? So but it's not like.

00:43:22:12 - 00:43:25:09
Speaker 2
It's checks in the park. Yeah. Took a took a few months.

00:43:25:10 - 00:43:26:10
Speaker 1
Months is like.

00:43:26:10 - 00:43:26:19
Speaker 2
Months.

00:43:26:20 - 00:43:31:10
Speaker 1
Okay. So this was not like a quick thing and it's like, okay, this guy's guy.

00:43:31:10 - 00:43:54:12
Speaker 2
No, it's a it should take. You should never rush into things like that. Yeah. And it should take time and neither of us were in a rush so that it really helped. Yeah. And there are critical decisions that are to make, so you need to get it right. Mm hmm. You'll as you go through your podcast and talk to other leaders, you'll talk to people.

00:43:54:21 - 00:44:19:12
Speaker 2
I'm sure you'll come across stories of people who hired presidents, who made someone a CEO or brought in a leader, and it was a disaster. Hmm. That's most often the case. Most really it is because people aren't aligned on values or vision. Mm hmm. And it's tough. The other thing for me, which I was upfront about, is why if I have a vision and if I have a plan, I want to run it.

00:44:19:19 - 00:44:48:18
Speaker 2
Mm hmm. And I was clear with them, and they were, again, great partners in succeeding control of their company to me. New guy. Yeah. Which is massive, huge amount of courage on their part. Yeah. To do so. But it's been a big part. Our success. Mm hmm. And, you know, to build on what they had and to to take it in a new direction, you do need you know, you do need.

00:44:48:18 - 00:44:50:09
Speaker 2
I was a new leader to do that.

00:44:50:11 - 00:44:56:23
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah. Now, is this. Is this something. I don't mean to get like this personal. Did you do you buy this, like.

00:44:57:11 - 00:45:07:14
Speaker 2
Cool. No, it's fine. So am I. As I am. I'm a part owner of the company. And a shareholder in the company. Yeah. I do not own the whole thing.

00:45:07:15 - 00:45:08:02
Speaker 1
Understood.

00:45:08:02 - 00:45:11:01
Speaker 2
And. And, you know, I'm a part owner of the company.

00:45:11:02 - 00:45:19:08
Speaker 1
That's cool. I never. It never crossed my mind till now. I'm like, Oh, wait. But you got hired, you got headhunted. But right now it's like invitation to partner. Correct. That's. That's cool.

00:45:19:13 - 00:45:34:19
Speaker 2
That's also part of the way it takes months. Yeah. It's one thing to interview for a job. Mm hmm. And it's another thing to interview for a business partner. Okay. And financial partner. Yeah. And there's a lot of different components. Components and contracts and moving parts go through a lot of moving parts.

00:45:34:19 - 00:45:43:00
Speaker 1
Yeah, And it's. It's obviously not a very quick process, like you mentioned, so. No, that's, that's cool thing And every company probably different slightly in some way for sure.

00:45:43:06 - 00:46:02:13
Speaker 2
And but then again that's understanding in what I said before but really being clear for the founders or my partners what do you really want. Yeah. What is it and can you articulate it? And they were able to articulate what they wanted. Well, and you know, there's lots of companies out there who the owners don't want to sell.

00:46:02:17 - 00:46:05:11
Speaker 2
Yeah. So they want a president. Yeah. Like two different sets.

00:46:05:12 - 00:46:21:18
Speaker 1
Different set up. Yeah. So when you when you mentioned that you had a vision they shared with them, you're like kind of like in this dating phase and you guys were like, Whom do we like each other? Had that vision. Did you. Did you then carry it and share it with the team or actually, before we even get to that?

00:46:22:10 - 00:46:44:13
Speaker 1
What types of things were included in the vision? So let's say it was like an essay format. Mm hmm. What would the kind of like, sections be like? Was it like, okay, here's the vision for the staff. Here's the vision for the processes or the vision for the ad. Like when you say vision. Yeah, right. Like, what are the different components that would be in a vision, not.

00:46:44:13 - 00:46:46:23
Speaker 2
An essay guy Okay, Shapes and pictures.

00:46:46:23 - 00:46:47:19
Speaker 1
Person Okay.

00:46:48:02 - 00:46:59:14
Speaker 2
All right. But going back to a consulting times and some of those frameworks. So gap analysis changed management, strategic framework and strategic plan. Our pieces.

00:46:59:14 - 00:47:00:02
Speaker 1
These are your.

00:47:00:02 - 00:47:18:07
Speaker 2
Tools. These are my tools. Okay. And so a gap analysis was the first thing I had to do to understand what capabilities we have, what needed improvement on, and then having a plan about how to improve it. And that in presenting to them is a, you know, 90 day to one year thing and then how to prioritize pieces to.

00:47:18:07 - 00:47:29:07
Speaker 1
Change a 90 day to one year thing you said. So if you were to say, John, you've got to do a gap analysis, what questions would you encourage me to ask myself when preparing?

00:47:29:19 - 00:47:53:18
Speaker 2
Mm hmm. So it's first baseline and capability cost and what you what you can currently do. Okay. And then to be able to establish what best in classes around those capabilities are skills. Okay. And then what are the steps we need to get to best in class or investments you need to make to get there? Because all those pieces take time and take money, of course.

00:47:54:03 - 00:47:55:18
Speaker 2
And you can't do everything.

00:47:55:18 - 00:47:56:11
Speaker 1
At the same time.

00:47:56:23 - 00:48:19:12
Speaker 2
At the same time, you won't have it. No one has enough resources to do everything they want to do for time and money. Mm hmm. And so taking that work and understanding the benefit in the company that existed in being able to say, Well, here's how I think we can improve the offering and add to the offering was a big part of that plan.

00:48:19:12 - 00:48:23:19
Speaker 2
And my plan to them in my, my, my work, for them to say what I wanted to do.

00:48:24:08 - 00:48:30:16
Speaker 1
Hmm. Then that was okay. So Gap analysis, Change management. Mm hmm. What was the last one?

00:48:30:20 - 00:48:40:03
Speaker 2
Strategic Framework. Strategic framework. And to have to have a strategic business plan, there is you can Google it and look, and there's there's some templates, templates and building blocks.

00:48:40:03 - 00:48:45:22
Speaker 1
Are there templates good, though, like from somebody who's done it at like a very high level are the templates target, what do you think.

00:48:46:19 - 00:48:47:10
Speaker 2
They're good enough.

00:48:47:14 - 00:48:48:07
Speaker 1
Good enough.

00:48:48:07 - 00:49:07:06
Speaker 2
Or good enough? Yeah. And I laugh because people often say, well, it's a template and often, yeah, I use paper, I use sticky notes and I use blank sheets of paper. I had a meeting just today where I have to write something incredibly complex. I think I just write notes on a blank sheet of paper from the printer.

00:49:07:12 - 00:49:34:09
Speaker 2
Okay. And that's how I get things out of my head. That's the process. It is a process, but yeah, there's some great tools up there. They're free. Yeah. Take them and use them. Yeah. And those tutorials on YouTube if people want it. Mm hmm. But having done this work before with. With different organizations and developed other things, you plans for businesses, it was it was a good starting point.

00:49:34:18 - 00:49:40:20
Speaker 1
Yeah. So now you get into the company, there's 30 people here. And how many years it's been since you've been running the show?

00:49:40:22 - 00:49:41:12
Speaker 2
Two and a half.

00:49:41:13 - 00:49:54:13
Speaker 1
It's been two and a half years. And you pretty much doubled. Mm hmm. Right Did by accident. Is it because of your glasses? Is it is because you're just a cool guy? Explain.

00:49:54:21 - 00:50:09:14
Speaker 2
Well, there's a number of factors. First and foremost, it's having people on the team and the company believe in what we're doing. Which is incredibly difficult.

00:50:10:01 - 00:50:13:11
Speaker 1
Especially after the vision document comes in. Like you're changing things.

00:50:13:13 - 00:50:19:00
Speaker 2
For an organization that has had success. Why do we need a new person? Yeah. What's going on? What's this?

00:50:19:01 - 00:50:19:23
Speaker 1
The glasses can be that.

00:50:20:04 - 00:50:39:02
Speaker 2
What's the glasses? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so explaining the vision to them and explaining what the process is going to be, explaining is how it's going to help them and benefit them in their careers is very important for them to be buying and be a part of it. Mm. And so that's step one in that step continues. Yeah.

00:50:39:02 - 00:50:51:01
Speaker 2
Ever. Um, then it's also, um, recognizing opportunity within the marketplace and within clients to add in services.

00:50:51:08 - 00:50:51:16
Speaker 1
Okay.

00:50:52:01 - 00:51:25:12
Speaker 2
And so we've developed a number of data products or technology products along the way. One, using artificial intelligence. One using cloud software. Well, that offer our clients real value and, um, are very desirable tools for brands. And as they try to contemporary marketing or improve their offering and how they show up to consumers. Mm hmm. Or improve the value of media to their board of directors or to their executives.

00:51:26:04 - 00:51:35:01
Speaker 2
That's what these tools do. Mm hmm. And so developing these tools was important for us to move forward into improve our proposition.

00:51:35:02 - 00:51:43:03
Speaker 1
Now, are these tools available for consumption for regular agencies, or are they proprietary or they're only things that you can keep your proprietary?

00:51:43:03 - 00:52:04:23
Speaker 2
Okay. And we we sell them to our clients for them to you got it. And and sometimes at a loss because they're just good strategic components for us to have in our in our skillset. Interesting. And so broadening the skillset from media buying to media planning and strategy and data and analytics. So it started just.

00:52:05:00 - 00:52:06:13
Speaker 1
It started just as media buying.

00:52:06:17 - 00:52:11:22
Speaker 2
Yeah. When the company originated 13 years ago, yeah, it would have been that. But you add pieces as you go.

00:52:11:23 - 00:52:12:19
Speaker 1
Okay.

00:52:13:01 - 00:52:38:06
Speaker 2
And it's it's literally one step at a time. Yeah. One hire at a time. One new client at a time. Mm hmm. And so with support of the existing team and by adding in new skills that complement what we have available. Yeah. We've been fortunate to win new businesses and to expand remix with existing clients. Yeah. Um, which are the key to any growth plan?

00:52:38:07 - 00:52:41:09
Speaker 2
The existing clients? You have to, you have to take care of them.

00:52:41:12 - 00:52:49:07
Speaker 1
Wow. Good to know this is this is so critical and I know you're just like, yeah, this is a how we learned and like, I'm on my phone.

00:52:49:10 - 00:52:58:18
Speaker 2
This is this is what the team does every day. Yeah. And, you know, they are tenacious professionals who want to learn and want to grow, believe in media.

00:52:58:23 - 00:52:59:07
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:52:59:14 - 00:53:05:15
Speaker 2
And also want to be part of a company like this. Yeah. So it's a it's a unique position for us.

00:53:05:15 - 00:53:16:08
Speaker 1
What do you what do you think made Devin the guy for Kierans and O'Neill? You know, what do you think it was that made them say, you know, this is he he's got, he's got the sauce.

00:53:17:02 - 00:53:23:05
Speaker 2
I, um. I don't know. Well, um. Hmm.

00:53:24:21 - 00:53:28:17
Speaker 1
I know I didn't prepare you for this question. I mean, I'm just freestyled.

00:53:28:17 - 00:53:29:12
Speaker 2
Yeah, This is.

00:53:29:12 - 00:53:35:15
Speaker 1
You're inspiring me with new ideas and their thoughts, so I figured I'd ask.

00:53:35:18 - 00:54:09:03
Speaker 2
I think they saw in me someone who had the passion for the business and the drive for the business to take their business to a different level and to continue their legacy. And I think they saw that in me. And we built trust with each other early, that through the meetings in the park and through going stuff together in the office, that they they saw that I could build on their legacy ultimately.

00:54:09:20 - 00:54:18:18
Speaker 2
And I was a competitive process for the role. Yeah, and I don't know. I'm going to have to ask them, though, to find out. Yeah, that'd be cool that we should have asked before.

00:54:18:18 - 00:54:41:09
Speaker 1
I think that's okay. You know, sometimes it takes a random guy from LinkedIn to, uh, to give you an idea to make you do something. So I'm happy I could inspire some action. No problem. So if you were. If you were a given, this is a there's something cool that I just thought of as you're here. Especially because you're like, so far you haven't necessarily been like the 0 to 1 guy where you're just starting something out of nothing and then building it.

00:54:41:15 - 00:54:58:01
Speaker 1
You've taken things that are existing and taking it to the next level for sure. It's like more of like a 1 to 10 than a 0 to 1, right? And if you were to take, let's say, a window cleaning company, I'm going to ask I think I'm going to ask all the guests this going forward, especially as my little brothers in window cleaning.

00:54:58:02 - 00:55:13:20
Speaker 1
Okay. So if you were a child, you just got given you just got elected the CEO of a brand new window cleaning company. Mm hmm. How did you grow it to multi-millions. And this is going to be cool because I'm going to ask every guest and all mashed up together will be your kind of first stabs, first couple of moves.

00:55:13:20 - 00:55:14:12
Speaker 1
How would you take it?

00:55:15:05 - 00:55:40:18
Speaker 2
The most important part to any business is to have recurring revenue. Mm hmm. And whether it's in the media business or the window cleaning business. Mm hmm. And I think the mistake that a lot of companies make is they do one off projects, like go knock on the door. Can I clean your windows for you today? Hassle on price or get the door slammed on you move to the next instead.

00:55:41:16 - 00:56:00:15
Speaker 2
If I was running a window cleaning business, I would knock on some doors. I would pound the pavement for sure all day. I would offer a service that I will come every spring and every fall and say, if I was going to be charging 50 bucks, I would charge 40 bucks a time. And I haven't signed on as a long term client.

00:56:00:18 - 00:56:25:12
Speaker 2
Okay. So you build up a steady flow of income to build your business from. Mm hmm. So you spend less time pounding the pavement and more time generating revenue by servicing your clients. Mm hmm. It's not dissimilar from what we do in that we want long term contracts with clients that have a variety of revenue sources to allow for the ebbs and flows, a.

00:56:25:12 - 00:56:31:22
Speaker 1
Variety of revenue sources for CEO, for a variety of revenue sources for the client.

00:56:31:22 - 00:56:33:17
Speaker 2
A variety of revenue sources for the company.

00:56:33:17 - 00:56:34:01
Speaker 1
Okay.

00:56:34:09 - 00:56:44:10
Speaker 2
So, you know, if you're in the window washing business for residential. Yeah. Okay, great. Well, in the fall, we also have an East cleaning program. Okay. Got a ladder? You're cleaning windows.

00:56:44:20 - 00:56:46:06
Speaker 1
I got a relationship with the client.

00:56:46:13 - 00:56:55:00
Speaker 2
There you go. Okay, great. Well, you don't need that in the winter. Oh, great. We have a snow shoveling service, too, and then you become a whole millions company. I know.

00:56:57:02 - 00:56:57:20
Speaker 2
That's what I would do.

00:56:57:22 - 00:56:59:14
Speaker 1
Yeah, I tell you, our project is.

00:56:59:16 - 00:57:19:18
Speaker 2
And, you know what we're doing here and adding in new technology and adding in cloud partners and air partners into our portfolio for clients. Yeah. And they start small, but they're adding on to an existing client service, a client base, instead of services that allows us to grow. Yeah. Incrementally.

00:57:19:18 - 00:57:25:12
Speaker 1
And that's a playbook they implemented here, which is cool because you like looked at the products and is that where you started? You started out product.

00:57:25:12 - 00:57:26:00
Speaker 2
And started at.

00:57:26:00 - 00:57:31:02
Speaker 1
Product and do you think you've got like a unique product kind of lends any product out on?

00:57:31:19 - 00:57:53:04
Speaker 2
I think we have a unique offering in the Kenyan marketplace. Okay. Agency Yeah. And I've been able to look at products and clients. It's back to service, not for profits or my time at IBM or my time at Mindshare to see hundreds of organizations and how they're structured and how they build things and how they sell things. Mm hmm.

00:57:54:10 - 00:58:10:03
Speaker 2
And we we carve our products out to develop them. They have to be sellable. And they have to. Which means they have to have need to a client. And we have to go generate some revenue from them to cover our costs or improve margin.

00:58:10:07 - 00:58:10:16
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:58:11:11 - 00:58:37:16
Speaker 2
Um, but it's, it's I'll go back to what I said about the technology world is like, well, you know, you can build anything and you can connect any two things together and daring to dream about it or having the opportunity and having the teams and the clients resource to do it. It's fun. Yeah. Our our clients love it and hopefully our team, our teams do like it.

00:58:37:16 - 00:58:46:09
Speaker 2
Yeah. And that's the beauty about being an entrepreneur. Running a company is being able to create things like that. To me, it's, it's, it's the most fun.

00:58:46:13 - 00:58:50:03
Speaker 1
Yeah. And being able to imagine something and say, you know what? Let's implement this.

00:58:50:09 - 00:58:51:09
Speaker 2
Yeah, exactly.

00:58:51:10 - 00:59:00:10
Speaker 1
How do you how are you going about listening? So let's say, for instance, you've got an array of clients. I'm not sure how many you guys got. Probably in the hundreds of thousands or so.

00:59:00:12 - 00:59:01:23
Speaker 2
Oh, no, we have 25 points.

00:59:02:03 - 00:59:04:03
Speaker 1
You have 25 clients.

00:59:04:10 - 00:59:10:07
Speaker 2
25 brands to work. Okay. And within their organizations, there could be between one and 50 people.

00:59:10:18 - 00:59:28:01
Speaker 1
Okay. Yeah. All right. And. And these. Huh? So how do you go about. Wow. 25 clients. And you guys are. I'm not going to say that. Like, we're not talking about the revenue number, but I think I was talking to Robin earlier and she's like, we're the leader in the space or at least one of.

00:59:28:13 - 00:59:37:21
Speaker 2
We're the leading independent agency in this space. And the thing is, as I said about the base of any growth plan is existing clients.

00:59:37:22 - 00:59:38:07
Speaker 1
Okay.

00:59:39:06 - 00:59:43:08
Speaker 2
Um, there's a capacity within people to do the work.

00:59:43:11 - 00:59:43:21
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:59:44:03 - 00:59:57:13
Speaker 2
And so we want to work with larger clients who have ambition. Mm hmm. And while they have to have ambition, and then as we progress as a company, the size of our clients are getting bigger.

00:59:57:17 - 00:59:58:01
Speaker 1
Wow.

00:59:59:04 - 00:59:59:15
Speaker 2
For sure.

01:00:00:02 - 01:00:12:09
Speaker 1
Interesting. So just 25 of them and dozens of millions of revenue, which I think is so cool. Mm hmm. And so, like, how many different? I guess there's five different products or planning, placement.

01:00:12:17 - 01:00:21:18
Speaker 2
Execution and. Yeah, how many different products that we have? Well, it's revenue streams is how we look about it.

01:00:21:22 - 01:00:22:09
Speaker 1
Okay.

01:00:22:17 - 01:00:37:19
Speaker 2
And so I can't give away all the secret sauce. That's okay. But having different revenue streams in different skills and different services important to the is trough windows and. Okay. The same client.

01:00:37:19 - 01:00:38:07
Speaker 1
Same client.

01:00:38:17 - 01:00:42:07
Speaker 2
But they have all those needs. Okay. And you're adding in those services as you go.

01:00:42:08 - 01:00:47:21
Speaker 1
So let's say you're starting. So 0 to 1, right? I know you're 1 to 10 guy and you use.

01:00:47:22 - 01:00:48:23
Speaker 2
5 to 10, five.

01:00:48:23 - 01:01:07:03
Speaker 1
Percent. Ten or 5 to 10 guy. Now, let's say if you just passed the 0 to 1 and you're trying to go from 1 to 5. Mm hmm. So you're at this point where you specialize in a couple handful of things, maybe one or two. Mm hmm. And now the way to you could either go get more clients for the same one or two things, right?

01:01:07:03 - 01:01:22:07
Speaker 1
And just. Just practice the one punch. Mm hmm. Right. Thousand times. Or you could learn a couple of different punches. Like, what do you think should be a priority? How would you More so? Because it's going to be different for everybody, right? But how would you go about identifying what your priority should be?

01:01:23:12 - 01:01:30:14
Speaker 2
I would much rather develop services to provide more to existing 25.

01:01:30:15 - 01:01:31:03
Speaker 1
Okay.

01:01:31:11 - 01:01:32:15
Speaker 2
I would much rather do that.

01:01:32:15 - 01:01:38:00
Speaker 1
Wiser because you're an advocate advertising guy. The businesses get more customers.

01:01:38:18 - 01:01:48:00
Speaker 2
Yeah, it seems counterintuitive. Yeah. But the most important part you, you know, providing good service leads to a good reputation.

01:01:48:01 - 01:01:48:09
Speaker 1
Okay.

01:01:48:13 - 01:01:59:05
Speaker 2
And having a long term relationship with the client is critical to our success. Okay. For sure. I would prioritize that over a new client any day. Wow.

01:01:59:11 - 01:02:20:04
Speaker 1
So you introduced a new service now, right? So we have our ten our 25 existing clients, and we're like, you know, we're going to introduce a new service that is now all of a sudden your change management framework come into play. Like, how do we implement like so? Because like, let's say, for instance, you're like, Hey, we do media buying, All of a sudden we want to offer videos, for example, and you're like, But we suck at videos.

01:02:20:11 - 01:02:26:19
Speaker 1
So like, but by our videos so that we could get better as we service you. Right. Yeah. So we buy that balance for sure.

01:02:26:21 - 01:02:28:17
Speaker 2
And so we've done this a couple of times. Okay.

01:02:29:03 - 01:02:29:12
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01:02:29:16 - 01:02:35:23
Speaker 2
And it's going to a client to say, okay, we're we're going to enter. We're going to develop a product that's into this thing. Mm hmm.

01:02:38:00 - 01:02:44:13
Speaker 2
We need a beta partner. Okay. Will you help us build this product? Wow. We will charge you nothing or very little to do it.

01:02:44:14 - 01:02:45:01
Speaker 1
Okay.

01:02:45:06 - 01:02:56:15
Speaker 2
And we're gonna develop some capabilities. Wow. And then you develop capabilities. Okay. Then maybe you charge a bit more the next time or that time. But you have to have proficiency in order to sell a service.

01:02:56:16 - 01:02:57:05
Speaker 1
Understood.

01:02:57:17 - 01:03:16:10
Speaker 2
And having good relationships with clients who trust you and be able to go to them to have an honest discussion. The mistake would be to say I had this amazing thing. It's going to crush charge you. It's so expensive. Yeah. And then you fail. Okay. I would be disaster.

01:03:16:10 - 01:03:17:04
Speaker 1
Reputation that the.

01:03:17:12 - 01:03:20:03
Speaker 2
Reputation of the window, all the other revenue of the window.

01:03:20:04 - 01:03:27:01
Speaker 1
I don't know. They don't even want to be. They don't even know why as a client anymore. Because, like, you try to do this cherry on top thing, your cherry screwed up the cake you need.

01:03:27:06 - 01:03:41:23
Speaker 2
You need the cake first. Yeah. And. And so then when you go, don't talk someone's you don't develop the skill or proficiency or product. Okay? When we talk to new clients and that does happen, we've we've added a number of new clients since I've been here. Yeah.

01:03:44:05 - 01:03:45:16
Speaker 2
We have these services available.

01:03:45:17 - 01:03:46:03
Speaker 1
Okay.

01:03:46:16 - 01:04:08:00
Speaker 2
But being honest to say, okay, we're developing this or this is new is is important. Mm hmm. Um, you know, in the advertising industry, reputation and relationships are everything. Everything doesn't have for every business. Yeah. And so we want to make sure that the work that we put out in the market. Mm hmm. Meets our standard. Yeah. Which is?

01:04:08:00 - 01:04:11:06
Speaker 2
It delivers results for clients and is of good value to them.

01:04:11:08 - 01:04:23:23
Speaker 1
Mm hmm. What are you most proud of? Of, like, so far that you've built here? You've inspired some cool questions today, man. Thank you.

01:04:24:18 - 01:04:35:14
Speaker 2
Um, what am I most proud of? I'm incredibly proud of the team for them, really. You know, trusting me and agreeing to work with me.

01:04:35:17 - 01:04:36:03
Speaker 1
Mm hmm.

01:04:36:20 - 01:04:45:19
Speaker 2
It's. I'm. I'm. I'm grateful for that. And, um, I think I'm on the quantitative side of things. We have a very low turnover rate.

01:04:46:13 - 01:04:47:09
Speaker 1
Clients are employees.

01:04:47:12 - 01:05:04:02
Speaker 2
Employing, both probably, and clients to. A very low turnover rate compared to what would happen as a norm in the industry. Yeah. You know, a norm in our industry would be, say, a 25 or 30% turnover within a year is difficult.

01:05:04:04 - 01:05:05:17
Speaker 1
Yeah. Expensive.

01:05:05:17 - 01:05:09:20
Speaker 2
Our turnover is, you know, one or two people leave a year.

01:05:09:22 - 01:05:11:23
Speaker 1
Wow. Uncertainty. That's not bad.

01:05:12:01 - 01:05:23:06
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's good. And so I'm proud of that. That means that we're giving them an opportunity to grow their careers. We're compensating them for their work, and we're letting them fulfill their ambition, I hope.

01:05:23:12 - 01:05:23:19
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01:05:24:13 - 01:05:31:16
Speaker 2
That's. That's what I want. And that's. That's. I think. Yeah, that's probably the thing I'm most proud of is helping people with that.

01:05:31:18 - 01:05:39:06
Speaker 1
Yeah. What do you think it added? You've been to like four or five different ad agencies, you know, before running this one ran one. Worked out three, I think. Is that.

01:05:39:13 - 01:05:39:18
Speaker 2
More or.

01:05:39:18 - 01:05:55:14
Speaker 1
Less. More or less. Yeah. What do you think is the favorite element from each that you learned that you carried into the culture, the team product, etc.? More, less product, more culture and team, you know, team ops, etc..

01:05:56:08 - 01:06:13:08
Speaker 2
It's a different world now because of COVID in a lot of remote. Working in all those other agency environments would have been in office Monday to Friday. You know, from whenever to whenever. Mm hmm. My previous job in Mindshare, I would easily be in the office ten, 12 hours a day.

01:06:13:14 - 01:06:14:13
Speaker 1
Oh, wow. Yeah.

01:06:15:09 - 01:06:42:02
Speaker 2
That was part of the job. Mm. It's a different world now. A different culture that exists in advertising. Yeah. And in our office as well. Okay. Um, but, um, I. I don't know if I could pick out one from each of them individually in my mind. Yeah, but I learned that in. In advertising, there is a lot of amazingly talented and fascinating people from all different walks of life.

01:06:42:05 - 01:06:59:18
Speaker 2
And we may not all be into cycling. Yeah, they might be into something else, but they're all really curious. People who have skill and talent and you can, you can make lifelong friends with people. Mm hmm. I do have one or two friends from every place that I've worked with in my career that I'm still friends with to this day.

01:06:59:18 - 01:07:06:01
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. Do I count as key confidantes and. And friends?

01:07:06:04 - 01:07:22:05
Speaker 1
Mm hmm. What are you most curious about? You mentioned time and time again throughout this interview and discussion that, you know, takes curiosity about what types things are or what types of scratches or what types of itches are scratching right now in terms of curiosity and learning.

01:07:24:01 - 01:07:56:08
Speaker 2
Um, I've been spending a time, a lot of time learning about different artists positions and how they do these things. Oh, goodness, no. Oh, okay. I have a few talents, but musically I very few. But I really admire the creative process they go through. Okay. And so whether a musician or filmmakers and so I've been reading a couple of books by movie producers or movie directors or books by artists, and how they go through the creative process and how they think.

01:07:57:00 - 01:08:02:11
Speaker 2
The Rick Rubin crude on the wall loading the wall. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. A great music producer.

01:08:02:13 - 01:08:02:23
Speaker 1
Mm hmm.

01:08:03:04 - 01:08:27:05
Speaker 2
Who views? His job as to unlock creativity from artists. Mm hmm. And, um, I. I just really admire their. Their thought process and. And how they go about things with such an open mind. Mm hmm. Yet with a specific creative vision about what they want to have accomplished. Okay. It's a tremendous balance to me. And I think a movie director is the same.

01:08:27:18 - 01:08:44:06
Speaker 1
Wow. Well, I think the person who runs a company is an artist as well. And I think what you've built is art. And, you know, I appreciate you being so open to sharing your art with the world and sharing a little bit of your perspective, a little bit of your journey, etc., etc.. So, yeah, go ahead.

01:08:44:17 - 01:08:47:08
Speaker 2
Well, I, I really enjoyed the discussion. So. So thank.

01:08:47:08 - 01:09:02:21
Speaker 1
You. Well, I'm honored and I'd yeah, that's another episode of 100 ways to make 100 K but before we go, where can we find you where we learn a little bit more about your job, your LinkedIn? I mean, we'll put it in the show notes, but maybe you could just tell them a little bit about where they can find you and dive into the ecosystem a little.

01:09:03:02 - 01:09:27:02
Speaker 2
Yeah, so I do a lot of I do share a lot of articles on LinkedIn. It's just McDonald. It's pretty straightforward. And I I'm on Instagram, but I just take photographs. There's nothing dramatic there. But, you know, LinkedIn is a place where I share content or items and I'm accessible there.

01:09:27:10 - 01:09:27:19
Speaker 1
Awesome.

01:09:27:19 - 01:09:29:04
Speaker 2
It's the best way to contact.

01:09:29:04 - 01:09:52:18
Speaker 1
What would be. I would be happy to put the links, the show notes on YouTube, Spotify, Apple, all the things. That's great. Thank you so much. And just like that, that's another episode of 100 Ways to Make 100 K the show where we're on the hunt to find 100 different ways to make 100 grand in a month. I'm your host of Arnott's here, and we were lucky enough to feature none other than the legendary Devon McDonald.

01:09:52:19 - 01:09:53:16
Speaker 1
Devon, thanks so much.

01:09:53:21 - 01:10:13:15
Speaker 2
Thank you. I'm Devon MacDonald, the president of Cairns. O'Neill Thank you so much for taking the time to watch my episode of 100 Ways to Make 100 K.