Couples Therapy, Communicating Your Needs, and Intimacy with Kali Shilvock

Kali is a Master’s Candidate at Antioch University Seattle pursuing her MA in Couples and Family Therapy. She currently works as a clinical intern at Modern Therapy Seattle. We talk about couples therapy, communicating your needs, intimacy, love languages, and EMDR therapy.

Book mentioned: Come as You Are: The Surprising New Science that Will Transform Your Sex Life Paperback – March 3, 2015 by Emily Nagoski Ph.D. 

https://www.amazon.com/Come-You-Are-Surprising-Transform/dp/1476762090


Kali's Psychology Today link
Kalis Instagram

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Transcript

Claire Calfo:
Hi Kelly, welcome to What Your Mom Forgot to Tell You.

kali:
Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Claire Calfo:
Of course, of course. So you're a master's candidate pursuing your degree in couples and family therapy. You're also specialized in sex therapy, which is so interesting. And I'm so excited to dive into all of that stuff. You also have like yoga, meditation, you kind of have this like whole holistic thing going on. But before we get into all that and my specific questions, I would love to hear how you got interested in this path and your journey so far.

kali:
Yeah, so I... Oh gosh, probably about 10 years ago, I got sort of more interested in yoga in depth and sort of some of the principles behind it and the Eastern philosophy and tradition that informed its development. And so I went and studied in Bali for my 200 hour first certification for yoga. And that kind of took me into a deep dive around meditation, around... mindfulness practices, sort of that was my gateway into the exploration of inner work. And

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
I had been in therapy off and on throughout childhood and adolescence, but it was kind of the first time I had really personally taken an interest in what it means to kind of sit with being a human and, you know, kind of the messy parts of being a human and psychology and... yeah, the inner workings of the mind. So I returned to Bali for some more studies and eventually got certified in my 500 hour for yoga instruction, took a year course in teaching meditation mindfulness practices, did some studies in Ayurveda, and through that I think coming back to the States and wanting to share a lot of what I learned. back home.

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
I think for me that required putting some of what I had learned into sort of like Western psychology speak.

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
And so that sort of took me into a pathway of a lot of self-study. And I just became, I've become fascinated with the mind and with, you know, the question of, the questions around the nature of being human. And so

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
since then I eventually, you know, made the leap into Finally, it had been on my mind for many years, but I finally, you know, got the courage to go back to grad school And I'm

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
now a pre-licensed therapist so I work under another therapist license, but I've completed my coursework and Yeah completed a certification in sex therapy And finishing out my training in basic EMDR. So

Claire Calfo:
Very cool.

kali:
It's a lot of a lot of learning has been

Claire Calfo:
Yeah, that's

kali:
has been

Claire Calfo:
awesome.

kali:
my last few years.

Claire Calfo:
I love to hear it. I'm actually on a similar path right now. I'm applying to Antioch actually. I saw you go there or went

kali:
Wow,

Claire Calfo:
there.

kali:
okay, nice.

Claire Calfo:
Yep, so it was really exciting to talk to you about that. They have a campus in Los Angeles. So looking

kali:
Yeah.

Claire Calfo:
into that right now, which is super exciting. So it sounds like it's been a good experience, which is great.

kali:
Yeah, it can do.

Claire Calfo:
Yeah, yeah. So very similar path on my end. I've always wanted to get more into the meditation side and do some sort of training there. Um, I'm not as much into yoga, but it's definitely something I'm interested in now, but it's cool to hear your path sort of started there and then came to more of this like holistic mind, Western medicine views. So, um, I, this isn't really on my questions, but just curious, like, what did that inner work look like for you in Bali? Was that a lot of. time alone and being silent and like how did that really become more of a routine for you I guess or more like front of mind.

kali:
Yeah, so I think the first thing that really I was kind of hit with was was just being with me. I went

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
into a space where I mean I eventually learned to ride a scooter but I had no transportation. I knew nobody. I was in a foreign country and I was jobless for a while until I started working at the yoga school that I studied at. So

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
I had really kind of hidden behind momentum for most of my life. and working a lot, studying. I'm very comfortable in motion. And so

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
having to kind of let go of a lot of the things that I attach to for kind of comfort and identity was a very uncomfortable place. And I had to kind of reckon with that.

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. And then how did the sort of interest in psychology start? Was that like, were you doing a lot of reading, journaling? Like what did that really look like?

kali:
I became very fascinated with meditation.

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
As we, you know, went through training, meditation became a part of my daily life. And

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
it was the first time that I had really found any sort of sense of stillness or any sort of, I wouldn't call it inner peace, but it was, it felt like the first time I really started to develop a relationship with any kind of happenings of my mind and

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
started to be able to notice patterns of thinking and ways that I kind of automatically interpreted information or ways that my... I've always struggled with anxiety, so ways that

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
anxiety manifested and how those thought spirals happened and understanding, you know, thought patterns and behavioral patterns and why those are there, how we develop them, that just fascinated me and then,

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
you know, you get into psychology and you inevitably start to look at, you know, attachment stuff and family,

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
you know, patterns and how those influence us and it just I just couldn't get enough. I just kept going.

Claire Calfo:
Yeah, I love it. Yeah, it is really interesting. I'm really similar. I'm really always on the go and I've meditated this year more recently, more than ever. And it's just so interesting to have that time of reflection even if your mind wanders, but kind of having that stillness and it's so valuable. And it's such an underutilized skill, I think, that we can all really benefit from.

kali:
Yeah, I... For a while when I got back I was teaching corporate meditation classes and I would

Claire Calfo:
Oh nice.

kali:
kind of reiterate that we don't ever turn off the mind. Our goal

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
is to kind of be separate from it so that we don't necessarily need to invest in everything that it's doing and we can kind

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
of watch what it's doing. I would see people quite literally squirming and just

Claire Calfo:
Yeah.

kali:
getting very uncomfortable in that stillness and then just kind of... being in that space of not doing. And

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
I think that's part of meditation is just forcing yourself to sit still. Like

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
the world is so frankly overstimulating right

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
now that it's a hard thing to do.

Claire Calfo:
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, it's really difficult, especially, I think, right now for me, I know working a nine to five, I always wanna do it before work, so I go into the day with a sense of calmness, and then, of course, the slack noises start chirping, and

kali:
Yeah.

Claire Calfo:
I start

kali:
Right.

Claire Calfo:
like, oh, but it only takes five minutes, really, in my mind, I'm like, okay, I can sit down for five minutes. everything can wait five minutes and I can get back to whatever is happening. But some days I have a really hard time telling myself that and I kind of skip it, but it has to, it has to be consistent for my, for myself at least.

kali:
It requires discipline and we wear so many hats. You know, we are partners and friends

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
and, you know, like children and parents and, you know, co-workers and

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
there's so many different roles that we juggle at all given times that there's always somewhere we need to show up, you know?

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
And it's hard. I don't think

Claire Calfo:
Yeah.

kali:
I've ever, there's been very few times where I've sat down and been like. I can't wait to do this.

Claire Calfo:
Well, that's good to hear from someone who leads and still practices. So yeah, it's always after that you're like, okay, that really was the right thing to do.

kali:
100%

Claire Calfo:
It's like working out almost or getting outside or any of these basic things that really help our daily lives. So yeah, totally agree with that. And I guess with, um, like anyone who's maybe hasn't meditated or it wants to get into it. Do you have any like good sort of advice or practices that you use that you really advise people to start, um, doing, whether that's like tiny mindful moments or, um, any apps maybe that you really like that you want to share.

kali:
Yeah, um, Balance, I have found, is a nice app.

Claire Calfo:
Oh, I've never heard of that one.

kali:
Yeah, it's newer and

Claire Calfo:
OK, cool.

kali:
has a lot of options for kind of like length of time, whether you're beginner, intermediate, advanced,

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
what kind of things you want to work on. I've liked exploring that. I think the easiest way to begin meditating is to start to work with the breath. So like,

Claire Calfo:
Mm hmm.

kali:
our bodies have a physiological response to the way that we breathe. You know, if we focus on like inhalation and more kind of intake of air or air into the upper lungs, we kind of, that has a stimulating effect versus breathing out for longer than we breathe in. breathing into the lower lungs, that's more of like a grounding, calming breath. So there's impacts of just the action of breathing and the way that we breathe, but also the breath is kind of like the best way that we can watch and witness something repetitive and steady, that holds our attention. That's not mind stuff. So breathing counts is a great place that I like to have people start counting

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
to four as you breathe in. Six as you breathe out is one that I often go to with with people in corporate wellness and kind of just here's five minutes to Sort of stimulate parasympathetic nervous system activity or rest and digest and calm things down. I think that's a great place to start

Claire Calfo:
Yeah, balance. Okay, I'll have to put that in the show notes and

kali:
I

Claire Calfo:
add

kali:
like

Claire Calfo:
that in,

kali:
a

Claire Calfo:
but

kali:
lot

Claire Calfo:
yeah, I'm excited to check it out. I've been using Insight Timer a lot and Comm, but I kind of want to stop paying for Comm, so I'm looking

kali:
Right.

Claire Calfo:
to explore some other options. So that's good to know, that's awesome.

kali:
Yeah, common sense, but it is, it costs money. I know.

Claire Calfo:
It does, yeah, like a lot now too. It used to be way cheaper, so

kali:
I'm

Claire Calfo:
yeah.

kali:
glad it's not popular, but,

Claire Calfo:
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And they're getting like all the celebrities on it too. It's so funny to me. Yeah, like meditate with LeBron. You're like, okay, interesting,

kali:
you know.

Claire Calfo:
but

kali:
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Claire Calfo:
yeah, it's funny. So kind of shifting over to and to now your work with, do you do couples therapy as well or mostly individual? Okay, very cool.

kali:
Yeah,

Claire Calfo:
And I

kali:
there

Claire Calfo:
know,

kali:
were more couples than individuals.

Claire Calfo:
oh, nice,

kali:
Yeah,

Claire Calfo:
okay.

kali:
I really enjoy relationship therapy.

Claire Calfo:
Okay, cool, cool. Yeah, I would love to just talk about like relationship therapy, sex therapy, kind of get into that. I know, one thing that you I saw that you do is Gottman couples therapy. So like using that methodology. I guess, one question I had maybe that's not as related since you do do a lot of couples, but I know a lot of people go into relationships and then sort of start doing this work. while in the relationship. I'm curious, like for anyone who's maybe doesn't have a partner currently or looking to find a partner, what kind of work would you work with someone on to go into a relationship really strong or really open? Is there anything that you, based on your practices or based on your work that you would recommend to people?

kali:
Oh man, I think so much

Claire Calfo:
Yeah.

kali:
of the work that we can do for our kind of health in a relationship is individual. So

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
I think like the most important things to me are work around owning and being able to accept our needs and boundaries.

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
People run into a lot of challenges with not knowing. you know, that they're hitting a boundary or crossing a boundary in a relationship or not being able to identify and communicate their needs

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
and ownership of those needs. So being getting comfortable with, you know, what do I expect from other people? What do I need for my sense of emotional safety? What do I need for, you know, separateness versus togetherness?

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
What do I need in terms of communication and you know, support around this, that, or the other. Those kinds of things I think are really nice to think through. The other big one is communication. Communication is so, so key to

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
any relationship, not just romantic, but

Claire Calfo:
Yeah.

kali:
learning how to actively listen, learning how to reflect back what somebody's telling you,

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
learning how to kind of have a conversational dynamic where each person has space to speak. that can be practiced with or without a partner in

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
any relationship. It's super important.

Claire Calfo:
Yeah, absolutely. There's two things I want to touch on, first being, so you mentioned needs. And I know I looked at one of your old posts about surface versus core needs, which I thought was really essential and so interesting. So could you explain a little bit about what you meant by that?

kali:
Yeah, so, you know a lot of the time people get caught up on Things like well, you know, I needed you to be home on time or you weren't You know, you didn't take out the garbage or these things that feel like they have a big emotional response, but maybe aren't necessarily you know kind of meaty or juicy issues

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
Almost always underneath those is is what that action represents to you So a core need is like I need to feel like I'm a priority for you. I need to

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
feel like I'm safe I need to feel like you respect and you know your commitments that I can trust you that I can rely on you so surface level needs are those kinds of kind of in the moment manifestations of bigger emotional and attachment needs that we have as you know people who trust and rely on another person.

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. And how do you typically recommend your clients expressing those? Do you say the first service need and then the core need, or can you kind of jump right to the core need? Like what, what is the typical process that is the best way to communicate those?

kali:
First, I think it's very hard in the moment to notice them. So,

Claire Calfo:
Right, yeah.

kali:
you know, a lot of the time with couples I notice, the focus is on kind of exactly what happened

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
and arguing about the details of what happened. And so I think the most important thing to start with is to notice when you're feeling very intensely about something.

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
that is kind of one of those, well, why am I so upset that the chores didn't get done? Like, what does this mean for me? What does this represent for me? Being able

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
to create those moments where you're checking in. And then when you are aware of what's being kind of touched in on, sharing with somebody in the moment, like, hey, it's really important to me that you're home on time because it makes me feel like I can trust and rely on you. And

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
that's something that I need to feel. Safe in a relationship or I need to feel respected

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
Being able to communicate what bothered you and then why it bothered you what it represents for you and why it's meaningful

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think that has just such a better impact, um, on the communication itself, because it's like, if you, which, you know, we all do this, like have that reactionary moment or we, um, do things and then once we're stepping away from a situation, then we get into that, oh, why did I get so mad about this? Or why was I so upset? And so it's so hard because obviously we're imperfect and. We want to be able to express that right away. But I think after reflection is really when you realize, oh, I was actually just feeling disconnected or I was feeling like I wasn't a priority like you said. So it's funny because I think we get into those conversations or we don't say anything. And then, it just, everyone works differently, but it is pretty interesting.

kali:
And it takes practice. I mean,

Claire Calfo:
Yeah.

kali:
a lot of it is slowing down and

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
having the kind of self-discipline to take a moment to really think through what is happening for me here.

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
and it's not something that instinctually most people do. So it's very much a skill that you kind of need to self-train in.

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely.

kali:
Be

Claire Calfo:
And

kali:
very

Claire Calfo:
it,

kali:
helpful.

Claire Calfo:
like you said too, it can be used with really anyone like a sibling or a roommate too. It's, you know, we get irritated by these little things too, that people do. So making sure to communicate those, I think long-term probably reduces stress and all of that.

kali:
Yeah, yeah, because if your partner, or not, we all have important

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
relationships in our lives. We

Claire Calfo:
Yeah.

kali:
all have people that we care about and rely on and who are important pieces of our lives. And so I think this is stuff that matters for all of our relationships. It's just in partnerships, it just comes up a lot more often because you tend to spend a lot more time together and have a sort of attachment that is a little bit more significant than with some of the other relationships we have.

Claire Calfo:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, yeah, so important. And then also just kind of staying on this topic really quick around like, um, relationship to self and working on yourself before entering a partnership. Um, what do you have any, I don't know if you've done any workshops or if you've done any courses around like dating and, um, like healthy dating, like, do you have any good advice for anyone right now who's dating and wants to make sure you know, their partner. is the right person for them or any good signs, I guess, in those initial dates that you tend to look out for.

kali:
I think that one, you know, and just communication is so so important to

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
a relationship. Without good communication, there's very little, that's how you create a dynamic, right? So

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
I think dating is a great way to feel out somebody's ability to engage in a conversation. And

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
a lot of the time, I hear of my single client sitting and getting. hearing, having a monologue delivered at them, you know, getting asked no questions.

Claire Calfo:
Right, yeah,

kali:
Or,

Claire Calfo:
the worst.

kali:
you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, right.

Claire Calfo:
Yeah.

kali:
Or just not answering any questions in depth, you know, getting,

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
you know, having very kind of short surface answers. And so I think openness to sharing about oneself and curiosity about you as a person is probably the best, you know, green flag that you can look for.

Claire Calfo:
Totally. Yeah. And then I asked this to another attachment theory specialist, but I'm curious, do you have a typical first date that you recommend someone goes on or something that you were like, this is a great way to kind of tell that you can have those conversations. I'm just curious if that's something that, if anything comes to mind for that question.

kali:
I think that's an interesting question. I think engaging in an activity when

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
possible is nice. You know, you can learn. something about the way that people negotiate space with public places

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
and balance your interests with theirs and check in about whether something feels good for you. I think walks in parks or

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
going out to a concert, I don't know if that's necessarily first date kind of material, but

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
going

Claire Calfo:
I

kali:
out

Claire Calfo:
unfortunately

kali:
and dealing

Claire Calfo:
did that for my first date, which I was

kali:
with

Claire Calfo:
told

kali:
the issue.

Claire Calfo:
that's not the best, but it's OK.

kali:
It's a bit commitment,

Claire Calfo:
It's worked

kali:
so

Claire Calfo:
out

kali:
Oh good!

Claire Calfo:
so

kali:
Okay.

Claire Calfo:
far, so yeah.

kali:
Yes,

Claire Calfo:
But yeah.

kali:
it's, there's a little risk there in that if it's

Claire Calfo:
Right.

kali:
not a good dynamic, you're kind of stuck, but

Claire Calfo:
So true.

kali:
yeah, I think trying out activities that where you can learn a little bit about what interests somebody or where,

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
you know, how they engage with with hobbies and you know outdoors or what have you is a nice way to kind of meet somebody but also see a part of their life.

Claire Calfo:
Definitely. Yeah. And maybe an activity that you both love or that you kind of like can find that you share. Whether

kali:
Yeah.

Claire Calfo:
that's like walking, like you said, or going to the beach or something. I like that. I think it's nice to like be outside too, like you said, or something like that.

kali:
And even just, I think, you know, the practice of having to kind of go back and forth and decide what feels like a good activity, like that is a good I get to know you activity,

Claire Calfo:
True.

kali:
you know?

Claire Calfo:
Yeah.

kali:
How do I? kind of put something on the table and then, you know, take something back and, you know, how do we find a compromise if needed? Or

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
am I telling you exactly what we're gonna do? Am I checking in and asking if that's gonna feel good? All

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
of those little things, they matter.

Claire Calfo:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I love that. And then just going kind of over more towards the relationship side, and we mentioned intimacy earlier and being vulnerable and open. How do you often recommend to your clients to improve intimacy in a relationship and vulnerability? And how can you do that maybe on a daily basis and more long term as well?

kali:
Quality time is really important.

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
I think something that a lot of people, especially people who cohabitate, get stuck in is that, yes, you spend a lot of time in the same space.

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
But really giving each other presence is very important. And it's different than just, you know, eating dinner together passively, or, you know, watching a show but not engaging. Having time where you are showing with your energy and with your verbal or nonverbal communication that like you are my priority right now is really important.

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
that signals to our emotional systems, our attachment systems that we matter to this person. And so I think that's very important. I think really taking an active approach in shaping intimate lives, including sex is really important. You

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
know, like, when are we gonna have sex? When are we gonna go on dates? When are we gonna connect this week?

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
Even the act of like sitting down and kind of collaboratively naming it as a priority and making it happen, that

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
builds trust and closeness.

Claire Calfo:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And that's, again, going back to asking for what you need and carving out that time, too. So I really love that. Since you mentioned quality time, I'm going to go off track here for a second and just ask, what are your thoughts on love languages? And is that something that is used a lot in couples therapy? Or is that? I know there was a big hype around it for a while, and I think I kind of joke, like, I'm actually all of them, but I would love to hear your thoughts about that.

kali:
I think, you know, I see that being a thing, for lack of better words.

Claire Calfo:
Ria.

kali:
It, you know, pretty significantly for some folks in the sense

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
that, you know, I have had couples come in and say, you know, he never does anything for me, where, you know, while that person, their way of communicating love and affection is a lot of physical touch and,

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
you know, a lot of kind of cuddles and warmth and, you know, the flip side of that is he's not getting... the physical affection that he wants and

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
her love language is acts of service and doing and making gestures. And

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
so I think, I do like to think of them as languages,

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
knowing what types of care, what types of behaviors and words make you feel loved.

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
And being comfortable with letting your partner know. Because I think... there can be this idea where they should just know,

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
or they should just, you know, of course, that's what they should do. They should intuit that this is my need, but I think it's really important to understand that people's instincts for expressing love and affection show up in different ways, and I think that's what love languages speak to, and I'm not sure, you know, so much about the rigid categories of each, but

Claire Calfo:
Yeah.

kali:
I do think that there are ways that we each gravitate towards certain expressions of love and

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
some people have an easier time with gestures rather than words or vice versa.

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
And so recognizing both your needs but also your partners and being able to kind of be fluent in both languages, I think is a good skill to explore.

Claire Calfo:
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Even if it's like you were saying earlier too, maybe she wants him to do more acts of service, for example, and then it's like, okay, I'm gonna take that extra thought and think about her needs or love language and do that for her, for example, or something. And taking that extra step of adding the thought to the action or something like that is

kali:
Yeah,

Claire Calfo:
kind of an interesting

kali:
I think

Claire Calfo:
way to think about it.

kali:
something that people get stumped on a lot too is this idea that it's not meaningful if you have to ask for it. And I think that that's

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
very problematic because

Claire Calfo:
Yeah.

kali:
We cannot know everything about another person. We cannot, no matter how well we know them, the idea that they should just know

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
rarely

Claire Calfo:
Yeah.

kali:
works out. And so

Claire Calfo:
So, I'm going to go ahead and say that I'm going to go ahead and say that I'm going

kali:
I think

Claire Calfo:
to go ahead and say that I'm going to go ahead and say that I'm going to go ahead and say that I'm going to go ahead and say that I'm going to go ahead and say that I'm going to go ahead and say that I'm going to go ahead and say that I'm going to go ahead and say that I'm going to go ahead and say that I'm going to go ahead and say that I'm going to go ahead and say that I'm going to go ahead and say that I'm going to go ahead and say that I'm going to go ahead and say that I'm going to go ahead and say that I'm going to go ahead and say that I'm going to go ahead and say that I'm going to go ahead and say that I'm going to go ahead and say that I'm going to go ahead

kali:
knowing that you can ask for something and the act of care is, oh, this is important to my person, so I'm going to do it.

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
Even if it was asked for, that's love. That's

Claire Calfo:
Yeah,

kali:
showing you care.

Claire Calfo:
totally. And oh my gosh, do we ever hear that phrase so much that they should know it's such a thing. So I'm really glad you said that. I think especially in long term relationships, you I feel like as time goes on, it's typically you probably life gets crazy and people get busy and you're not like in that honeymoon stage. So you kind of have to bring

kali:
Yes.

Claire Calfo:
things back

kali:
Yes.

Claire Calfo:
to

kali:
Yes.

Claire Calfo:
that and ask

kali:
Yes.

Claire Calfo:
for

kali:
Yes.

Claire Calfo:
things a bit more

kali:
Yes.

Claire Calfo:
often.

kali:
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Claire Calfo:
So

kali:
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Claire Calfo:
Yeah,

kali:
Yes.

Claire Calfo:
I think

kali:
Yes. Yes.

Claire Calfo:
that's,

kali:
Yes. Yes.

Claire Calfo:
I'm really glad you said that.

kali:
Yeah,

Claire Calfo:
Yeah.

kali:
it's just the way we need to do it.

Claire Calfo:
Yeah,

kali:
And it's okay. It's okay to ask for things.

Claire Calfo:
and it's

kali:
And

Claire Calfo:
okay.

kali:
on the flip side, it's okay, you know, the answer can be yes or no. And

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
that's okay, too. You don't always have to have the capacity to meet another person's need. Or you know, you don't... Not every moment is the right moment to do something for somebody. So being able to negotiate, to ask for what you need, and

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
to be comfortable with being honest when it's not something that you can do or can do right now, I

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
think is a tough thing for people and can

Claire Calfo:
Yeah.

kali:
be uncomfortable, but it's a really important negotiation that comes up

Claire Calfo:
Definitely.

kali:
often.

Claire Calfo:
Yeah, absolutely. I do wanna shift a little before we get into sex therapy, you did mention EMDR therapy, and I'm so interested in this form of therapy right now. So could you explain just what it is and, kind of a little quick intro on what that type of therapy is and what it really does and what types of people it serves?

kali:
Yeah, so EMDR is a technique often used around trauma.

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
But it is essentially it utilizes what you call bilateral stimulation. So it's often Often it's eye movement that you're using so kind of drawing your eyes back and forth in a repetitive pattern But what that stimulation does and it can be most researched visually, but there's also ways that it can be modified to you know, be a touch-oriented thing, you can have buzzers of hands or auditory if visual isn't an option.

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
But it's essentially, because we have this sort of stimulation going, that taps into a part of the brain that kind of helps us access safely material that is highly sensitive or even repressed.

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
So... It is a technique often used around intense trauma or, you know, areas of kind of really painful childhood memories, ways that we can tap into kind of a behavior that we've just never been able to shift and, you know, get at the roots of where that comes from. So it's essentially a technique for looking at... sort of maladaptive ways of thinking that have surfaced as a result of adverse experiences or trauma,

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
reprocessing what we've kind of internalized about those situations and integrating more adaptive responses or ways to think about them and you know reducing our brains kind of sensitivity or threat response by doing this stimulation at the same time.

Claire Calfo:
Mm hmm. It feels almost, I don't know, I could be totally wrong on this, but does it feel like there is kind of that meditative state attached to, um, doing those eye movements and that like sort of technique?

kali:
A little, yeah, yeah.

Claire Calfo:
Yeah.

kali:
There's definitely a little bit of the repetitive sort of soothing quality of the eye movements. It does

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
kind of make me think about the repetition and the steadiness of the breath and the calming

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
effect that has.

Claire Calfo:
Very cool.

kali:
Yeah, there's like the physiological kind of activity around it is really fascinating and

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
something that I kind of, it was a training offered at one of the group practices I work for and

Claire Calfo:
Very cool.

kali:
wasn't something I expected to get into but I have seen it be incredibly effective for people and I've really enjoyed working with folks especially around sexual trauma.

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
which can be a very, very sensitive and painful subject to explore. And it's been very helpful for some of my clients in just being able to access some really, really hard painful memories.

Claire Calfo:
Yeah, I'm kind of loving this new wave of methods being brought into therapy. So another example too is like the ketamine therapy wave that's happening too and having people access memories in that form versus just talk therapy. Like I think it's really cool how it is being more incorporated and there are other opportunities for people to face trauma and then, you know, work with the therapist on that afterwards.

kali:
Yeah, yeah, I think we're definitely expanding in how we approach healing. I think another important facet of that is the somatic aspect of being and like learning that so much of our emotional. reality lives, it lives in our bodies

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
and also a lot of our healing needs to happen through kind of physical cues of safety. So

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
I've loved seeing more somatic work incorporated in that field as well.

Claire Calfo:
Yeah, yeah, it's very cool. And would you say there are a lot of therapists now who are getting that, adding that to their practice, or would you say it's maybe more unique and harder to find?

kali:
I do think that currently in the realm of continuing education and in

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
therapy programs, there's a lot of opportunity to learn

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
somatic techniques. I think that the ketamine therapy is definitely a growing and developing

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
area. I do think there's more and more trainings around it, but that's emerging and still, I think there's... some questions around how it's regulated and how

Claire Calfo:
Right.

kali:
we make sure we practice safely. So, but in terms of just kind of alternative ways of healing, I've seen a major emergence of art therapy and play

Claire Calfo:
Yeah.

kali:
therapy, drama therapy, which is also very cool.

Claire Calfo:
Yes, so cool. Yeah, because I think what intimidates people to sometimes about going to therapy is like talking for 45 to an hour in a room. And it's like, I think, incorporating those other practices and probably helps a lot of maybe those people who are more hesitant to initially enter. So I think I think it's cool the way it is evolving and making it work for a lot of different types of traumas and, you know, people's hesitations perhaps, so I'm going in initially.

kali:
Yeah. And you know, based on our experiences, based on our personalities, based on, you know, the way that we operate neurologically. I mean, I think in terms of like from a neurodiversity spectra or

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
perspective, I think that having more ways to heal than just using language is really important because not everybody processes

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
or expresses themselves best through words. And so I think that those modalities have also given people more options for for getting the healing that best suits their needs and the

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
ways that their mind works and their bodies work.

Claire Calfo:
Yeah, definitely. It's an exciting time. I love it.

kali:
Yeah,

Claire Calfo:
Super

kali:
it

Claire Calfo:
cool.

kali:
is, it is. It's a really cool time to be kind of entering and emerging into the field.

Claire Calfo:
Definitely. So shifting over now into sex therapy, sexuality, education, how did you start getting involved in this and what sort of, I know you, I saw on your website you do some like courses and workshops and discussions. What kind of topics are you talking about and what do those really look like?

kali:
So I have, I kind of just stumbled into my interest in sexuality. I took a human sexuality course and started, you know, I've always been a reader and a studier and

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
it just became the most fascinating topic for me to study and that kind of was happening in tandem with a lot of my personal growth journey.

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
And you know, what I've found through study and through self-experience is just the realm of sexuality is... is so much a part of how we experience ourselves, how we express ourselves, how we connect with other people.

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
And it's a realm that, you know, in this country, certainly, we just really do people a disservice by neglecting. You know, we don't do, there's no requirement for any school-based sex education programs to be factual.

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
You know, people at, best often get an unabstinent or a sort of preventative, you

Claire Calfo:
Yes.

kali:
know, kind of like safety-focused sex education, but nobody learned anything about pleasure or consent

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
or, you know, ways that sex and sexuality can look and manifest and evolve. And, you know, as I kind of dove into... studies, I started to read and access these materials that I felt sad. It made me very sad that it took me until this point in my life to kind of learn, get a proper sex education,

Claire Calfo:
Yeah.

kali:
and then that I'm very privileged to have access to these materials. And it just started to make me think, where do people go? And in so many realms and kind of interpersonal kind of situations, there's nowhere to safely talk about it. There's

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
nowhere to safely ask questions. For some, I mean for many, many cultural reasons that we have this kind of stigma around conversations about sex. And so a lot of, you know, my workshops or talks have been, have been really focused on answering questions.

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
having open spaces for people to ask questions, to be curious, to learn about different ways that they can experience pleasure or that they can help their partner achieve

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
more pleasure.

Claire Calfo:
Yeah.

kali:
I think that in and of itself is so important because those spaces are few and far between.

Claire Calfo:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's so interesting, like all of what you just said too, because I think that education part especially is really lacking still. And even the forms of content that we have right now block a lot of that. I interviewed a sex therapist in season one and she gets her content all blocked on TikTok and she can't, even

kali:
Yep.

Claire Calfo:
though it's very light too. It's not even like. Um, you know, like she's not going into any like crazy details or anything, and it's super light, but she still gets blocked. And it's just, like you said, really sad that it takes us, we're, we're delayed in our learning. And, um, then it sort of trickles down to, you know, the younger generations and, and there isn't really a change happening with that education system. And I also went to Catholic school. So I got the preventative talk that was 20 minutes, maybe. Um, there wasn't really much to it. So it, and I think at that point it was too late cause we were all like seniors in high school for most people. And so it was just kind of funny to, to now look back and see how that. Impacted me growing up. And then also my view obviously has changed a lot more now because I'm, you know, I've done my learnings like similar probably to you or you. I'm kind of curious about this stuff as well. And so I've been able to learn and had a little sister that I needed to talk. you know, about certain things with, but it's just so interesting too, to see how it's, it's not really evolving as much too, just because of again, the content and the way you can put out information.

kali:
Right, big time.

Claire Calfo:
Yeah.

kali:
I mean, you know, as content creators, you

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
can't spell the word sex without,

Claire Calfo:
Yeah.

kali:
like, properly without getting your content removed, right?

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
And meanwhile, sex is something that almost everybody has some sort of relationship with in varying

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
degrees, right? So as you're growing up and as you're entering into... the world as a sexual being and exploring your own sexuality, like, how do you not learn that it's a shameful thing to think about or to

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
want to learn about or to be curious about?

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
And the sort of cognitive dissonance that that creates of like, this is something that I have a drive and a desire to do and something that I can't talk about or that's wrong or that's shamed or that's closed off in this little box. I mean, that's

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
That doesn't have a good effect for anybody.

Claire Calfo:
Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, again, it's, it is that level of like shame and not being able to talk about it, like you mentioned, that is so harmful because, you know, people don't are afraid to ask questions or they feel like something maybe that's completely normal is not normal. So, um, I think creating those spaces are so important.

kali:
Yeah,

Claire Calfo:
Yeah.

kali:
yeah. being able to talk about it and being able to think about it and not

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
feel like there's something wrong with you if there's a certain sort of fantasy or

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
fetish that you're curious about or you know there's this different type of stimulation that you want to explore or

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
there's a new toy you want

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
and not feel that like that makes you anything other than a sexual

Claire Calfo:
Normal.

kali:
being which we all are. Yeah,

Claire Calfo:
Yeah,

kali:
totally!

Claire Calfo:
yeah, yeah, absolutely. How do you recommend that people go about facing this if they are feeling that layer of shame or discomfort maybe just based on the preventative education they received or the society we're in? Is that with a partner and without a partner, is that going to an event like yours, are there spaces that you recommend people check out where they can ask questions or? What is, what are those things that we can start doing even to make other people feel more comfortable in bringing up these topics?

kali:
I think... The best way to kind of open the door is to dip your toes into sort of self-study. So

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
it isn't always necessarily at first easy to go into a space and ask questions. But there are a lot of awesome sex-positive books out, and I think that's one wonderful thing that has happened culturally, is that

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
a lot more... kind of mainstream podcasts and books authors have put out some great kind of sexual materials. So

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
reading books that appeal to you, listening to podcasts,

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
and going into a toy store and your body and

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
just taking a personal, taking personal initiative to kind of expose yourself to sexual content and just be in that discomfort. It's going to be there

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
and the more you do it, the easier it does get. And I think after you've kind of dipped your toes into a little bit of self-exploration,

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
there's a lot of wonderful spaces, especially around, you know, kink, especially in kind of urban areas, you know, meetups are great,

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
sex positive events in spaces, films, you know,

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
that there can be really wonderful communities to explore and check out that I think is a really affirming experience for people and can be really exciting. Like, oh, there's

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
all these people talking about sex.

Claire Calfo:
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Do you have a book that you recommend? Or anything, yeah. Uh-huh.

kali:
I think one of the most wonderful books that was important for my personal journey was Come As You Are. I really love the Nagoski sisters, but

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
Emily Nagoski is a great sexual educator. And so that book is wonderful. That one comes to mind. And also some of, you know, if you YouTube her lectures, Emily Nagoski, there are some helpful ones.

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
that are kind of short and sweet that are great entrance points. Gosh, what else do I have on the shelf?

Claire Calfo:
I actually just, it's so funny, I went, there's a romance bookstore in Los Angeles and it only has romance books, but they also have a section for like sex education. So that book I just bought actually, it's on there. So it's on my bookshelf,

kali:
Nice,

Claire Calfo:
but I haven't

kali:
yes,

Claire Calfo:
read it yet.

kali:
that's such a good read.

Claire Calfo:
Yeah.

kali:
I definitely think that's a wonderful one. Esther Perel is another one who does

Claire Calfo:
is great.

kali:
some great talks about relationships, but also touches on sexuality and

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
on keeping sexuality exciting in relationships. Um, yeah, I can put together a reading list if that would be helpful too.

Claire Calfo:
Yeah,

kali:
I'd have

Claire Calfo:
that

kali:
to connect.

Claire Calfo:
would be

kali:
Okay,

Claire Calfo:
great.

kali:
cool.

Claire Calfo:
I'll link it in the show notes too. And then yeah, just last question too around that sexuality, I know self-exploration is something we mentioned, but how do you think that links then with like the vulnerability, like whether that's talking with your friends or family or a partner and how do you kind of bring that conversation again to the surface and disarming any of those uncomfortable hesitations or. shame like we were talking about earlier. Is that necessary you think or is that something that can be possible where you can create this space that's really safe?

kali:
around sex?

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
I think it's tough because everybody's got different comfort levels

Claire Calfo:
True.

kali:
and

Claire Calfo:
Yeah.

kali:
you know I think that consent matters especially around sex and

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
whether it is because somebody you know hasn't gotten the right information or not the reality is some people are not going to be okay with having those discussions. And so I think, you know, putting it on the table like, hey I learned something really interesting about, or I read this really interesting book about sex, like would you be willing, can I share it with you?

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
Or, you know, feeling it out by, like, well I've been thinking a little bit more about, you know, my sexual journey and it's been, it's been really exciting.

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
Can we talk about it a little bit? Offerings like that where

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
communicating, it's important to me and this is something that I'm enjoying and I'm experiencing, but also knowing that it's not gonna be comfortable for some people and that doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with it.

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
I think just also being cognizant of the fact that the reality is that Culturally it is taboo and especially for earlier generations that signals like Danger zone no-go zone. We don't talk about that. And

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
so Being aware that if you experience resistance to talking about sex and talking about your sexuality It is not anything wrong with sex or sexuality or yours

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
it is really challenging cultural messaging that

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm.

kali:
we have all internalized to some degree and everybody is on a different journey in kind of overcoming the way that we internalize those things

Claire Calfo:
Yeah.

kali:
and I think what's really important is finding sex positive and affirming people and spaces to have those conversations So that you know you do have a place to feel community around that Because you will always have people in your life where that's just not somewhere they want to go

Claire Calfo:
Mm-hmm. Absolutely. I love that. And I thought, I think that's a great note to end on as well. Um, finding those communities. And then I love just the phrases you used as well. Like, Hey, I've been reading about this. Are you open to talking about it? I think that's like a very perfect, just like small phrase to use in the toolbox. So I absolutely love it. Um, Callie, thank you so much for coming on. I absolutely love chatting with you and, um, I will add your book list to the show notes so people can check any of your recommendations out and Yeah, where can people find you? Maybe attend a workshop if you have those open to the public. Would love to hear all of that information.

kali:
Yeah, I have my therapy Instagram is at Kali Shilvok just no symbols or anything and I have website Kali Shilvok com where I post Events coming up. So those

Claire Calfo:
Great.

kali:
are kind of the best pieces but Instagram I always have you know, whatever is coming up on there So that's kind of an easy quick resource to find

Claire Calfo:
Wonderful. And are you currently currently accepting new clients or booked up?

kali:
At the moment, I have a small wait list, but it

Claire Calfo:
Okay.

kali:
doesn't last long, usually

Claire Calfo:
Perfect.

kali:
a month, two months.

Claire Calfo:
Awesome. Good to know. Thanks

kali:
Yeah,

Claire Calfo:
for watching.

kali:
also an Instagram is a link to therapy profile. So that's a great place to message if you are looking for therapy or recommendations for therapy. I also have a lot of great referrals and colleagues that I'm always happy to pass

Claire Calfo:
Perfect.

kali:
recommendations.

Claire Calfo:
Awesome. Well, again, thank you so much. So appreciate you coming on and thanks for sharing the space with us and giving some great just thoughts and advice and being so open.

kali:
My pleasure. Thanks so much for having me, Claire. It was great

Claire Calfo:
Yeah,

kali:
to talk to you.

Claire Calfo:
anytime.