76. Navigating Birth with Diana, Host of the Healing Birth Podcast

When Diana's own birthing experience left her grappling with the unexpected, her quest for healing turned her into a guiding light for countless women. Join me as I sit down with this extraordinary birth expert and host of the Healing Birth podcast, to traverse the intimate terrain of birth, trauma, and the subsequent journey toward recovery. Our heartfelt conversation will reveal the transformative power of birth stories, empathy, and the solidarity found within a community that honors every woman's unique passage into motherhood.

This episode goes beyond the birth room to confront the societal pressures on postpartum body image and the radical acceptance that can bloom from a free birth. We share the narrative of a courageous young woman whose choice to embrace childbirth on her terms led to a profound celebration of her body, challenging the pervasive 'snap-back' culture. And as this shift toward body autonomy and respect for the birthing process grows, we invite you to join us in recognizing the incredible strength and adaptability of the postpartum body.

Lastly, we delve into the broader implications of maternity care and the over-medicalization of childbirth. Expect a critical analysis of the practices that shape the maternal and infant experience, and the profound need for a paradigm shift that views birth not as a medical emergency but as an innately powerful event. Our discussion includes personal reflections on the importance of informed choice, self-advocacy during childbirth, and the spiritual dimensions of prayer and forgiveness within the birth journey. Tune in to an episode that doesn't just share insights but strives to redefine the very essence of how we perceive and experience birth.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:33

Hello and welcome to the Radiant Mission podcast. My name is Rebecca Toomey and we are on a mission to encourage and inspire you as you're navigating through your life and with your relationship with Christ. We are currently in a series called God's Design for Birth, and today we have a very, very, very, very special guest. She is an expert on birth. Her name is Diana, a four-cell tie-in, and she is a writer, speaker and she is the host of the Healing Birth podcast, which is now in its fifth season. So amazing.

Speaker 1: 1:06

Her podcast is popular in 36 countries, which is amazing, including the US, canada, australia, the UK. She's the co-founder of Healing Birth, which is a perinatal support organization that's dedicated to supporting women in various ways who've experienced birth trauma. Diana is trained with birthing from within as a birth story listener and offers one-on-one non-clinical support to mothers who seek her help in processing their birth experiences. Diana's passion and commitment for this work comes from her own personal experience with the traumatic birth, its aftermath and, ultimately, her healing. She's a mother of two sons and lives with her family on. I'm going to let you say where you live, so I don't mispronounce it Kauai, hawaii.

Speaker 2: 2:01

we're the northernmost island in the Hawaiian chains.

Speaker 1: 2:04

Beautiful, and you can find more of Diana's work at healingbirthnet. You can listen to her podcast Healing Birth on all streaming platforms. Diana, thank you so much for being here today.

Speaker 2: 2:19

Thank you so much for having me. I mean, you were a guest on my podcast and that was one of my actually most favorite episodes, so it's really fun to see your face and get to talk again.

Speaker 1: 2:29

This is awesome, yeah. Something that I really want to share with listeners is the amazing impact that you've made on my life, and I don't even know if you realize it. I tell you, but I don't know if you really understand it. Without you, this podcast wouldn't even exist. It was in July of 2022, after I'd had my own traumatic birth, that I shared the story of Ben's birth with you on your show and after we stopped recording, you were just so encouraging to me and you just said something about you enjoyed my storytelling. I should do something with that, and I just couldn't stop thinking about it. After that, I went to bed. I was thinking about what you said and I really started praying for some guidance about sharing that story. Was there more to share? And from that came this podcast. The rest is history, but it all started with you and your words of encouragement, so thank you for encouraging me.

Speaker 2: 3:24

I'm so proud of you. I'm so glad you're doing this.

Speaker 1: 3:28

It's amazing, it's seriously. It was like we had such a great conversation and it's been cool to see it spawn into more things. So you're changing women's lives literally with your podcast when it comes to birth and healing from birth trauma, but then you also changed mine.

Speaker 2: 3:46

Thank you, rebecca. That's so kind, but I mean you did it and you listened to the call, so you know yeah, you're a.

Speaker 1: 3:53

Yeah, I guess there's a little part there. I'm just so excited and honored really to have you here. After knowing the history and how important it's been for me, it's just such an honor and a pleasure to have you and to learn from you, because that's really what this is all about. We love to share learning moments here on the show and takeaways and we want to just help women to get to the answers faster. I think you could probably agree with a lot of that.

Speaker 1: 4:24

We a lot of times go into birth without knowing mantra, even going into the next birth continuous birth and maybe we haven't learned in between. Whatever it might be, it's such an amazing thing to get to learn from women who've walked through fire and not only have you walked through fire, but you have listened to the fires of many other women and that's what I want us to learn from you today is all of the stuff that you have heard over all of these years five seasons of listening to birth stories, traumatic birth stories and stories of healing. So we're going to be peeling that onion back today to learn from you and then next week we'll focus on the birth trauma side. So if you are listening in and you have experienced birth trauma of your own. Be sure to stay tuned for next week, because we're going to really dive into that specifically. But today we want to talk about learning moments and I just want to hear from you first. How did it all start? How did it all progress? Tell us more about the Healing Birth podcast.

Speaker 2: 5:28

Yeah, I love to tell how this started, because it's so magical. So I, when I was pregnant with my first baby, like a lot of people do, I think that it was around 10 years ago, and I think around 10 years ago is when podcasts kind of were becoming a thing like right around then, like a lot of moms, I was listening to birth podcasts and I was listening to birth stories and I was constantly filling my head with stories of home birth and happy birth stories, because that's the kind of birth that I was planning for. And so when that birth did not go that way and I ended up having a very traumatic experience at the hospital, I had this podcast feed that was full of like home birth and positive birth stories, and I wanted to find stories like my own, not only to try and make sense of the experience that I had just had, because I was kind of really like how did this happen to me? But also I wanted some hope. I wanted to hear people that had had a birth like I had just had and then found healing or found some sort of redemption or even went on to have a positive birth. And I also found that in those early days postpartum, I was very I felt a lot of guilt and I didn't have really a lot of empathy for myself.

Speaker 2: 6:45

But when I heard other women's stories of having a home birth transfer and a cesarean, anything that was kind of similar to mine I could find empathy for them. I wasn't judging them, I wasn't thinking, oh, you were so stupid, how did this happen to you? In the same way I was saying to myself, and so, in a way, hearing other women's stories really helped me find compassion and empathy for myself, and so it was a really important part of my healing from that experience was just other women's stories. But it was hard to find a collection of stories like that.

Speaker 2: 7:17

Most birth podcasts, probably by design, have a whole range of different types of stories that they share, and so I remember thinking in those early days wow, I wish that there was just one podcast that was just about healing birth trauma or healing from a bad birth experience, and that kind of just stuck in my head and I thought about it for a while. And I had a new baby and I had a new baby, so I wasn't really in a place to start a podcast. But a few years later, after the birth of my second child, which was a life changing, oh, just a healing, incredible birth experience. I know that you know what that's like I was invited to share.

Speaker 1: 7:56

It lights you on fire. It lights you on fire.

Speaker 2: 8:00

It lights you on fire and it will change your whole entire life and you'll quit your corporate job and you'll become a podcast, which is what I did. But yeah, I was invited to share my story on a pretty popular birth podcast and I just discovered that I loved it, I loved the recording, I loved speaking about birth. Like something about it lit me up and I just felt like I've got to do this, I've got to start, I've got to start a podcast and talk about the niche like the specific niche in the birth world that I'm really interested in and that I know a lot about because I went through it, and so that was five years ago and I can't believe it's been five years. It's been such an amazing blessing in my life and I've met and talked to women all over the world and you know, like you said, I've just learned so much and I'm really proud of it and thank you for the opportunity to talk about it.

Speaker 1: 8:53

Oh, it's amazing. I really, I'm really just so impressed by everything that you've done and how to watch it unfold over the years, too, is just so beautiful. That's amazing. What's that? Thank you for being part of it too. Of course, of course, and I'm so glad that you have that space for women because, like you said, there are all kinds of different spaces, but what you're focusing on is actually the healing from the trauma, versus focusing on just the trauma piece. Right, like it's not a place to just go and like tell your deepest, darkest, worst moments and be like bye, I'm in a horrible place now. You know, I love that there is a very fun.

Speaker 2: 9:41

That would be very fun to listen to. No, it would.

Speaker 1: 9:44

It would be pretty depressing for sure. So I think that that's a fantastic thing that you have that for women that are working on their own healing, because there are women that aren't there yet and these are the stories that they need in that time. I'll never forget when I had my C-section with my daughter and my sister said something later on like her heart broke for what she knew I was about to go through and because she'd had two C-sections. It was like actually makes me emotional thinking about this, because of how far we've come, both of us myself and her, who I've had now two V-backs and she just successfully had a V-back after two C-sections and no doctor's believing in her. So, anyway, I remember her saying that to me and just thinking like gosh.

Speaker 1: 10:39

Now I know what it's like right when I hear a mom who has had to transfer or whatever their story might be, that things just did not progress. They're the way that they had in their mind and how you know the next thing that they're gonna go through after birth is that trauma and it's heartbreaking and I don't want anybody to go through it, which is why we want to be as educational as we can be to other women around us, to other moms that are about to walk through this path. So, with that said, I have a billion questions I wanna ask you because I can honestly only just even imagine what you must have learned over all of these years, and I wanna soak up that knowledge as much as I can. I know our guests you too. So, our series being called entitled God's Design for Birth, I would love to start there and learn more about what you have seen about God and the stories that you've heard from other women.

Speaker 2: 11:39

I love this question. This is such a beautiful question that I almost need to stop and think about a little bit. I'll say that I see God in every single story that I share on the podcast, even the stories where the birth is a challenging one. I don't know about you, but every single birth video I've ever seen, even if it's a challenging birth, like I said, the moment that there is a baby born it just feels holy, like it's almost like I can just feel God's presence when a baby is born. And so generally, I mean I just I always see God reflected in the birth stories that I share.

Speaker 2: 12:18

But I've come to primarily now think of birth, or think of pregnancy and birth, as a spiritual journey for us, for the women that are bringing the babies onto the planet. And in that I think that there are a few themes that God really invites us to explore during this time, and it comes up a lot. Especially, women of faith will often say this to me that they're connecting this to their relationship with God, and that's themes of surrender, themes of trust, themes of trusting in their own body and trusting in God's design of their body, which is actually kind of a radical thing to do nowadays Like. I know it sounds simple, but it's like we live in a world where we like immediately inject something into a baby because, like you know, that baby wasn't born. What's that?

Speaker 1: 13:07

Cause someone told her.

Speaker 2: 13:08

Yeah, exactly, but I mean really fundamentally what's behind that is we're not trusting God's design, and so it's radical to do that, and I think that that's something that we're often invited to explore during our pregnancies. Healing is also something that I hear a lot, not just in the sense of healing from a difficult birth story, but there can be radical healing that happens in a woman's life, that happens through the unfolding of a physiological birth. One woman just the other day told me that her birth experience healed a lifetime of body image issues for her, which I thought was so beautiful, and I just feel like any time that radical healing like that happens, god is always involved.

Speaker 1: 13:54

That's beautiful, yeah yeah, I would love to dig in to that side of it a little bit more, and you know that story that you just mentioned of her saying that her body image issues were healed. Could you share a little bit more about that story? Yeah, and come to the context to it.

Speaker 2: 14:11

Yes, I can. I think that the context is relevant. So she was a very interesting person. She's very young, she was 21. And she had always, you know, like so many of us, maybe all of us dealt with, like you know, wanting to be thinner, being on sort of the diet cycle, not really nourishing herself properly, and she seemed to be someone way ahead of her time, way ahead of her years. She decided that with her first pregnant she, she was going to free birth that baby and in making that decision she decided to take radical self-responsibility for her health and the health of her baby, but really like for all aspects of her life. And she didn't like talk about God very much, but she had like a big poster of like I forget what it was, but it was like trust God, like a poster behind her head as we were recording. So I'm extrapolating that this was part of a spiritual journey for her. But it just really struck me that someone that young could take that much responsibility and make that decision.

Speaker 2: 15:15

And the birth was just a really you know it was birth. It was everything that birth was. It was challenging, it was powerful, it was beautiful. She did it and she emerged from that experience feeling like, oh my gosh, there's absolutely nothing wrong with my body the way it is now, even if I'm slightly heavier than before. I just did this. I mean, this was a miracle. She emerged feeling so strong. She had no medical authority there managing the process, it was just her and her partner and, I think, her in her mother. Yeah, her mother-in-law was there too, which I thought that's an interesting dynamic, but it was healing for everyone. I guess, like the mother-in-law also had had a really strong medical background. She was a nurse and had a lot of fear and a lot of just like issues a lot of fear around birth, like most people in the medical field too and witnessing her daughter-in-law free birth her baby healed a lot of that within her as well, and so, yeah, that was the major points of that story.

Speaker 2: 16:15

I haven't really seen that it's gonna be in this next new season. Oh, good, good exciting.

Speaker 1: 16:19

We'll have a nice fresh episode to listen to. I love it, looking forward to it. Well, there is a couple of things that I wanna pull out from that. First is the body side of things. That is a great conversation to have.

Speaker 1: 16:31

I know that so many women, once they are in that fourth trimester, are then pressured by especially. We have social media, which drives me crazy with this whole bounce back culture and, oh, I gotta get my old body back, and I'm sure that this is a theme and something that you've seen over the years. Do you find that the tides might be shifting at all with when it comes to that? Because I kind of starting to see it with some women who are like, no, I'm not playing this game of trying to get my body back. I, this is my body, and my body did an amazing thing and I'm gonna soak up the skin-to-skin and I don't care about any of the rest of that stuff. I kind of see there's a community of those women that seem to be getting larger, but I can't tell if it's just the communities that I'm in or if it's, if it's actually happening. Any thoughts on that?

Speaker 2: 17:24

Oh, I definitely think it's actually happening. I think it's part of a larger movement of women are starting to how do I want to say this? Take more agency in the realm of birth. I think that we've. I mean, I'm gonna. By the way, I'm sorry I should have prefaced this by saying I have some really radical things to say or opinions about birth, like, I don't know how radical you want me to be, I'll be as radical as you want to be.

Speaker 1: 17:52

Okay, cool, as radical as you want. This is a radical show.

Speaker 2: 17:56

I'm gonna say some stuff that might sound kind of out there, but I, getting back to your question, I I think that we've actually been in a massive dark age as it relates to how birth is done, and I'm not even talking about just in the United States, I mean everywhere, as far as I can tell, across the globe.

Speaker 2: 18:15

We have been damaging women and damaging their babies during, during the management of their birth process, and it happened to our mother, our grandmothers, our great grandmothers and then beyond there I can't really say.

Speaker 2: 18:30

But it's been a real dark age and I think that we have been emerging from our birth experiences, many of us, perhaps most of us, damaged by it and hurt by it, and there's something that we there is a prize that we get when we have a normal physiological birth. There is a price that we get and that is the knowledge that we can do it. There's there's like a somatically felt knowing of how strong and powerful you are when you, when you go through that process and you're on the other side of it, and so, while this my answer might not seem like it's directed to body image, I think it is, because I think I am seeing more and more women, saying no to abusive systems that harm them during the birth process and birthing more at home, taking more agency for their own births, and when we do that, we always emerge on the other side stronger and with, you know, intact self-esteem, and I think that that has a direct impact on our body image.

Speaker 1: 19:34

I totally agree with you.

Speaker 1: 19:35

You know, I think I've seen something to.

Speaker 1: 19:38

I don't know if this is true, maybe you can tell me, or if you've seen this something about every hundred years.

Speaker 1: 19:44

It's like there's a cycle, and maybe it's more than a hundred years, but it's something to the effect of women become unhappy with how they are being cared for during the birth experience, and so there are women that will then kind of go outside the system midwives, as we want to call them, or what we would know as maybe more of a birthkeeper type of person, you know, because they're not certified or anything like that. But then what ends up happening is people need some sort of credentials and they go through this process of okay, now they are tied to a system, that they're getting checked, and then now midwives are medicalized and are part of the system. They're just an extension of the system and really you're being managed the same way at home as you would be in the hospital and that. I don't know whoever wrote this, I forget, I forget where it came from, but it basically talks about how then it becomes super medicalized and then the system breaks again and the whole routine starts over.

Speaker 2: 20:45

Do you know what I'm talking about at all? I do know what you're talking about, and I think that I can't remember who wrote it either. But yeah, I think the concept is solid and I think that we're at that point now again and maybe we have been at this point, you know, at other times in history but I do feel like we are at that point where we're going wait a minute, this is not working. We got to find a different solution.

Speaker 1: 21:07

We aren't, because, you're right, our grandmother, my grandmother, her had her children by Twilight sleep Mine too. So they don't even know. And and we're not even getting into necessarily the impact of this on babies, which is something that a lot of mothers may not think about, but you'll think about it maybe years from now. That's kind of what happened to me. Right is like you get this idea planted and then over time, you start to think about it more. But what does the baby experience and go through during birth? Because the baby is in the birth too. They're being born.

Speaker 1: 21:44

We actually just talked about this with my sister's birth, where she thought about when he came out and he had a lot of bruising because his head was asynclinic, so it took him a bit to come, you know, to come down, and she just had that thought like man, what has this baby gone through in birth? And now we factor in all these other stories of moms who have been coerced into C-sections or, you know, had other experiences that didn't go right. If baby's feeling what, mom is feeling what, what are these babies experiencing through the way that we give birth? And I think that that's not something that we often think of. I don't know your thoughts on that.

Speaker 2: 22:24

Yeah, well, the babies are experiencing the trauma that the moms are experiencing and I think that you know moms, I think, have an intuitive sense about this, but in the general culture I don't think there's any awareness around what babies go through. I mean, it wasn't even that long ago. That what is it, people? It was accepted medical knowledge that babies didn't feel pain. How long ago?

Speaker 1: 22:47

was that like 50 years ago and people will still try to argue that one. They'll say oh, babies, don't feel pain in the womb. And you know people will still try to argue against us like are you kidding me?

Speaker 2: 22:59

I know it's so crazy. So, yeah, I mean that I think that that needs to be part of the conversation too. You know, I also feel like there's this women are not selfish for not wanting to have an intervened with traumatic birth, like we don't want to have that happen yes, for us, but also because the baby is part of it too, and the baby does get left out of the conversation sometimes. But you know, when we're arguing and fighting for a natural birth, we're not just doing it for us, we're doing it for our babies as well.

Speaker 1: 23:34

Alright, let me go back to the all of the mommas, okay, because you have heard from moms all across the world. What are some of the most common themes that you've heard across these stories and what can we really learn from these moments, especially the moms that are entering into their birthing time? What advice might you give?

Speaker 2: 23:59

them. Okay, this is where I get radical again to sew it, and I don't mean to be negative, but if I'm being honest, if I'm answering your question honestly, what I see across the globe everywhere is that we have a very broken maternity care system. It's just broken. It's not working well, it's not serving families, it's not serving mothers and babies, and mothers often have to fight very, very hard just to have a natural birth, and in some places it doesn't happen at all and so that's a bummer. But I think anyone going into motherhood needs to know that. It's just you have to know it, because if you don't know it, it's quite likely that you will learn the hard way.

Speaker 2: 24:46

And I do include midwives in this. Like you said, midwives that are licensed, they often can, can bring the hospital to your home. They have many of the same restrictions, like not going past 42 weeks, stuff like that that a doctor would impose upon you. They also have their own fears and biases too. You know, some midwives have seen things that scared them and they can bring that into the birth space. And so the whole, the whole point that I'm trying to I'm not trying to make anyone scared or scary any new pregnant mamas. I just wish that everyone knew that you have to be very, very careful about who you invite into your birth space, whether that be a doctor, a birthkeeper, a midwife, a sister, a friend, even your partner in some cases. You have to really, really know you have well, actually, you have to do this. You have to learn about what birth actually is, because the mamas don't really know much about birth. Yep, and you have to. You have to decide what do you want like, what makes you happy, what gives you peace, what kind of a birth would make you happy? For some people it's not what I would choose, and that's totally fine and then get very, very, very clear with whoever it is that you're inviting into your birth space, exactly what you want and what you need to feel safe. And I think that if every new mom did that, I think that that would prevent tons of trauma.

Speaker 2: 26:07

And I do have a podcast episode called 10 questions. You must ask your midwife I think it was the first or second season and I think that that would that podcast episode would be a great place to start, because there are deep questions. How do you feel about death? How do you feel about free birth? You know what's your? I think it was actually what's your relationship to death? I don't know. It's a. It's a great starting point, I think, for everyone, anyone who doesn't really know where to begin with finding the right practitioner for them. Yeah, that's, I think that's. I think that's it.

Speaker 2: 26:42

That's what I would want people to know that's, that's the biggest thing that I just hear everywhere like I just hear it everywhere that it's crazy that we have to fight so hard to have our babies come out of our bodies and not have someone do something to us like it's. It's everywhere.

Speaker 1: 26:59

Yeah, that's great advice and I'm glad that you're pointing that out because I think that that's part of our stories too. Right, like we went to the hospital for our first birth, people were touching us. We didn't want to be touched. You know, my doctor kept sticking her hand in there and I'm just like get out of here with this. Yeah, and you don't realize how traumatic it is in the moment, because you're in the moment and you're trying to just have a baby and all these things are happening to you. It's not until later. After that you're like man, that made me feel horrible, that that person kept sticking their hands inside of my body and those little things they blow up into big things when you're postpartum.

Speaker 1: 27:42

And that is why we want to talk about this, so that women can be aware of what they're getting themselves into when they go into the quote system, meaning go to a hospital to have a baby. And I always want to be clear. I'm not trying to push my own personal biases. Obviously, the listeners of this show know that I'm up here having my babies in the bathroom. So, no, it's not. It's not like people don't know that, but a lot of folks are growing the chews to still continue to go to a hospital and that's their choice. That's totally fine. But just be aware of what you're up against when you go into that setting, because you can tell them things all you want and they will still do things, even if you've said not to. That's what you're getting yourself into, and so having a doula might be a good idea if you're in that situation, someone that you're going to tell don't allow them to do any of these things. That can kind of be your defense person. I hate to say this, but it's like you have to have someone there to fight for you so you can focus and just do what you need to do. And that's why I'm a fan of home birth, because I don't want to fight with people during birth. I don't want to be stressed, I don't want to deal with anybody, I just want to be left alone and go up there to my closet and just do my thing. Don't bother me, and I think that that's another thing that a lot of first time moms maybe don't realize is that the more people you have around you, the harder it is for your body to do what it needs to do, because it's distracted. Your body's trying to squeeze that uterus, squeeze, squeeze, squeeze that baby down and you're over here dealing with all this other stuff that doesn't allow you to stay in the moment and stay focused. I think that can be another problem that women run into when they're in that type of setting.

Speaker 1: 29:34

I have said this before on the show and I'll say it again you also don't need to agree to things in the hospital and it's not necessarily my place to tell anybody what to do when it comes to that point. But you can decline things. You can say no. You can ask to sign forms saying that I'm going to sign against medical advice called an AMA and I'll sign a form for you. You need me to sign something for you. I will sign it, but again, this is what you're up against in that setting.

Speaker 1: 30:08

So the other alternative is to just not be a part of that. But it's going to take radical trust in the Lord to walk the home birth path. But then, once you do it, then you realize wait a second, god created my body perfectly to do this, without any intervention at all. I didn't need a doctor that's down over there to run over here, to quote, deliver my baby, which I'm sure it drives you. I don't know if it drives you as crazy as it drives me.

Speaker 1: 30:43

It's like I get people ask that oh, who delivered your baby? I'm like me I did, yeah, you did, and the baby wasn't delivered, they were born, he was born and she was born. It's like so crazy this world that we live in. But I think that that's good advice to give these moms is learn about birth, learn about the physiological side of it. Do you have any good resources for first time moms? Because that's the other part of it is. A lot of times we'll go to YouTube and we might learn a little bit, but maybe we don't learn fully about the physiological side of birth.

Speaker 2: 31:22

I'm not just saying this because I'm a podcaster, but I truly believe you will learn so much. I think the most important information about birth you will learn from listening to women tell their birth stories. You don't need to know all of the details about the hormonal cocktail or all of the detailed physiology of the uterus. I mean, all that stuff is really interesting and cool and maybe we should all know that. But I'm telling you, if you listen to women's birth stories, you will notice themes. Something will happen that in your labor you'll remember. Oh, a woman said this about that and that happened. It is such an invaluable resource that there are birth podcasts out there and you don't have to listen to mine. Just listen to birth story podcasts and you will learn more than any book that I could recommend honestly.

Speaker 1: 32:11

That's a great point. I think you're right. It is in learning. That's how I learned from other women.

Speaker 1: 32:16

Now I did read a couple of books, like Home Birth on your Own Terms, which you know it's like a big one in our home birth world, but I really for that book specifically. I was interested in learning from her about herbs and just some kind of other little things. Not necessarily all of it right, not necessarily I didn't need to know everything about home birth, but there was a couple of things that I wanted to just read about and learn about. So that was helpful. But you're right, like Ina May, gaskin's Guide to Childbirth starts with birth stories.

Speaker 1: 32:49

And she starts with birth stories for a reason Because the stories of these women are what are going to help champion us forward. It's learning about birth from other moms who've done it. I mean, I hate to be mean, but if we think about a lot of these OBs out there that are quote delivering babies.

Speaker 2: 33:11

Where's their knowledge? From A book? They know nothing. Many of them have never seen a physiological birth, never seen it, never seen it in their training, don't see it in their practice. Don't allow it to happen. Sorry, I'm being mean now.

Speaker 1: 33:28

But yeah.

Speaker 2: 33:29

I don't think that they actually know it. I mean I also don't really think that doctors know as much in generally about the human body as they think they know. So I mean that's also my bias showing.

Speaker 1: 33:38

But yeah, yeah Well, we know that it's true because there's so much fear. If they truly understood how birth works, they wouldn't be so afraid, they wouldn't feel that they needed to manage it. But birth in the industrialized medical complex it's a financial system, it's goods and services that it's crazy to think about it like that, but it is. We are just a product that's coming in. They have certain protocols to getting out the product that they need to get out and then move on. You're just another bucket, another number in the queue, and I don't know about you. I don't like to be numbers in a queue Doesn't make me feel good, and even if you think about the model and how broken it is.

Speaker 1: 34:30

You go for appointments, but the people that are going to be there on the day that you give birth are going to be all different people. You're birthing with strangers and one of the things that you noted earlier was people being present in your birth and being cautious or thinking through who's going to be in your birth space, because that really is a sacred place and there's a lot of talk in our world. Birth worlds is what I mean about the intimacy in making a baby is the same intimacy that the baby comes into the world under and we're going to have that intimate moment under fluorescent lights and strangers and beeping around us. And that's one of the beauties of embracing the physiological part of this is you're able to really unlock the true way of birth. I don't even know what I'm talking about, just that.

Speaker 1: 35:35

I don't even know how to describe it. It's so primal and so normal and so natural and it doesn't have to be this big show, this big spectacle that it is. I guess that's what I'm trying to say that you leave your house, you get in the car and you go do things at the hospital. It's simpler than that. It doesn't have to be that complicated. Our body, I mean, think about it. There are women that have been in a coma and their babies are born. Why is that? Because the body knows what to do.

Speaker 2: 36:07

Yeah, and also I totally agree with everything you said. But just to add on to a lot of the things that are pathologized as wrong or a problem or bad within the medical system, there actually is an intelligence behind some of the things that we've just decided are incorrect or wrong, like breach babies, you know.

Speaker 1: 36:30

Yeah, totally. You know one of those I heard recently from someone who just had her baby and was in the traditional system and just was sharing how things went and said, yeah, it was almost an emergency, the cord was wrapped around the baby's neck and so they almost did a C-section, but then the baby came out. It's so hard for me to keep my mouth shut at this point in my life with all of the stuff that I've heard.

Speaker 2: 37:02

Yeah, me too.

Speaker 1: 37:03

Especially because I don't want her to sit and ruminate over my baby almost died. That is horrible, right? I'm like hey, um, I just want to share with you that the doctors you know were. They don't understand that completely and I kind of like went into this little tangent and then afterwards I was like why did I say anything? I should have just get my mouth shut, because it's hard to tell people that are not yet awake necessarily to what's going on in the system. It's hard to tell them something that's going against what a doctor told them, because they have credentials in there a doctor and they said that it was almost an emergency.

Speaker 1: 37:49

So that's sometimes what I feel like we're combating, which can be challenging, but at the same time, it's not also not my job to convince someone of anything Like. That's the Lord's work and he will help guide other women and families to the right answers. That's his job. And I guess I feel you know what we can do is we can share in the right context. And that context I kind of regretted sharing, just because I felt like her response made it, made me feel like she wasn't prepared to peer something like that. Now that must. You're such a great listener. I mean, you're trained and you're so good at listening, so it must be challenging sometimes. I don't know, is it hard sometimes to hear things? And then you know like you probably have feedback too that you want to be like actually let me help you with this, and you know you give your answers. How do you manage that when you run into it?

Speaker 2: 38:50

It's super challenging for me. Every time and almost every single birth story I hear there's something where I can pick up like a mistruth that this person believed about her experience or a place where a provider intervened and caused the very problem that caused the problem. And I never offer my opinion. I never insert myself into any story that a woman is sharing with me because I have learned the hard way that it's just entirely not my place. And these, when you ask people to like think critically about the interventions that happen around birth and our medical system, the way it's set up, you're actually what you're really inviting them into is something so much bigger and deeper You're inviting them into kind of shattering the worldview that we all live in. You know it's a real head-exploder if you had to like accept that, like maybe your doctor didn't do the right thing or doesn't know everything and so like realizing that, like people are, not everyone is ready for that. I just don't ever. I don't ever offer my opinions about anything. I always offer empathy and understanding and gratitude that a woman is sharing her birth story with me, because it is also just a sacred thing to be brought into and I often feel like the most disrespectful thing that I could do would be to say, oh well, that isn't what actually happened. That happened, you know. But I mean just today I interviewed someone and she had to transfer out of her home birth because of something the midwives picked up on in their listening to the heartbeat and telling her story and I knew exactly what had caused the complication that caused her to transfer. In her story I heard it immediately, I could tell exactly what it was. The details don't really matter and she ended up having this extremely traumatic experience that she has been in therapy for for two years and it was just one thing I heard in her story and I was like that is what caused this to happen. But I'm never gonna say that to her because, also, her story is so much more than that.

Speaker 2: 41:04

So it's challenging though. I mean I feel for you and I completely understand your struggle. It's really hard not to tell people especially something about the narrative of the cord around the neck. It's like really triggering for people because it sounds scary, but when you don't understand the actual physiology of the cord and the wortensia that's on the cord and how protective it actually is to be wrapped around the baby's body, because then that prevents a prolapse from happening, like it just sounds triggering. But it seems to be one of those common maybe it's a common reason that doctors say you needed a C-section and we just accept it because it sounds scary. But it's a complete falsehood, like completely yeah.

Speaker 1: 41:45

I'm so glad that you addressed that there at the end, because it is part of God's design for babies and for birth. Is that that cord is nice and long and baby can wrap around in it. They roll around in there. It's only natural. If God, he is the designer of this, right, I don't think that he would design something so poorly that one third of these babies oh, those third are at a risk for death because of this. I don't think so. I don't think so. It's by design, like you said. And do you wanna tell us a little bit, because it sounds like you have a really good? You shared a little piece of it, so tell us more about the cord and it's design. What have you?

Speaker 2: 42:34

learned. Sure. Well, I should have maybe said like 40 minutes ago that I'm not a medical professional and I have no medical training at all. Anyone listening, this is just stuff that I've picked up, so okay. So there's a coding. There's a coding on the cord called Wharton's Jelly. It makes it really slippery, really slimy and sticky and really elastic, and so what I was referring to was when the baby has the cord wrapped around their neck or just around their body like a seatbelt.

Speaker 2: 43:02

You'll sometimes hear about that. That is actually very useful, because when the baby is coming out of your body, it prevents the cord from going first, which actually would be a true emergency if the cord was prolapsed and was coming out before the baby. And I again coming back to this common theme that we've touched on so many times. I mean often the prolapse can be caused by interventions of other people. I don't know that I've ever heard of one happening in a undisturbed birth, but that's an aside. So the way that it's designed is designed to be tightly with your baby as your baby comes out, because it prevents what could actually be a true emergency.

Speaker 1: 43:40

Perfect, beautiful. That was a great explanation, thank you All right. So we have talked a little bit about some of these common themes, and this is kind of on that same note, but a slightly different question Is there or are there any perceptions that you've noticed that women have about either birth itself or an aspect of birth? That is just blatantly wrong, all of it.

Speaker 2: 44:12

No well, I was gonna say that it's so the misperceptions around birth that I've encountered or that I wanna dispel, that it's dangerous that you can't do it, that there's something uniquely broken about your body because your OB told you something 10 years ago about your pelvis even that it's a medical event I don't even see birth as a medical event anymore with the knowledge that I have. I see it as a physiological event that will unfold most likely, ideally, without any interruptions or strangers being there. And so, yeah, all of it, like all of it, is a huge misconception and we have to unlearn it. And also, birth is not it's not the way that it's depicted in television and movies on your back, screaming Like. That's not.

Speaker 2: 45:01

I get that's how it unfolds sometimes in the modern world, but that's not what it actually is. It's a physiological process. It's the culmination of a spiritual journey. It's an initiation into a new version of yourself. Even if you've had five babies, every single time you do it you're gonna be changed, and that's what I think birth actually is. And all of that other stuff is just like capitalism and noise and like the pharmaceutical industry.

Speaker 1: 45:29

Yeah, absolutely, it absolutely is. It's so funny. Something that you just mentioned so just sparked a thought for me on the side of the physiological, you might remember from my story that I used hypnobabies to retrain and reframe my thoughts because of how our culture shows us birth, or how birth shows up for us in our lives on TV and movies. Like you said, that we are taught and we're trained, it's this emergency, you know how does in the movies, like all my water broke and now I go to the hospital and then I'm screaming and people are holding the legs back and all the babies like this big, huge drama. And one of the things that I loved about that have no babies program was that it trained me to reframe my own thoughts on how I thought about birth, and that's something that I think that we go into birth not doing enough of is saying what are my perceptions?

Speaker 1: 46:28

what do I actually think that birth is? Because I thought I thought I thought I thought I knew what birth was before I went into it. Then I went into my first experience and as soon as I was experiencing Contractions, that's when it all went south for me, because I hadn't I hadn't learned yet that contractions are unnecessary, needed and beautiful part of a baby being born. And once I understood that, it was normal and natural to feel that in that, if I just honed in on that instead of trying to fight it, you use the word surrender earlier. Once we surrender to that, that fear of pain, I think that that's where the beauty really can unfold for us and where things can shift and where we can experience a change and not have that hospital, drama, tv birth that they depict for us.

Speaker 2: 47:28

Yeah, I'm so glad that you mentioned a mindset shift because, you know, television really is programming and all of us, whether we're aware of it or not, we've been put, we have, we've been programmed by someone else's ideas of the world, and you're you're so spot on. I mean, going into my first birth, I did not do enough to do programming at all, even though I thought of myself as someone who trusted the process and, you know, wanted to birth at home. I didn't do the really deep inner work of Of really examining my beliefs about birth and reprogramming them. I love that you, the tool that you use. I mean, I think there's so many different ways to do it, but absolutely lots of ways.

Speaker 2: 48:10

Yeah, absolutely key.

Speaker 1: 48:12

Yeah, yeah and I'm definitely not necessarily promoting one over another just was what helps me at that time. You know it was what kind of came up, and I think that you're right. Though, and as a woman gets closer to her birth, I think that's when it gets even more important to Just really focus on positive birth stories and, you know, positive situations and not get sucked into all that stuff. I remember I think it was my sister, when I was getting close with Ben, saying, oh, you gotta watch this show, the one with the midwives, call the midwives. And I was like I am not watching a show about childbirth right now. You're crazy. And it was funny because I started watching it after. I was like, okay, let me see what this is about. It was so traumatic. I was like why did you tell me to watch this, you know? And it was funny because she was still in the hospital birth mindset, she hadn't yet gone through her own experience, and now she gets it.

Speaker 1: 49:09

And I think that sometimes we have to just experience things to understand them, and I know that we want to save all these moms from all the pain that we went through. But there are going to be some that here and you know, it takes kind of going through it on their own to really set them on fire for birth too, and I think that's the beautiful thing about this community that we're in is it's a bunch of women who are really on fire for birth because we know how awesome it can be.

Speaker 1: 49:37

Yes, absolutely Well good well, anything else you want to leave us with on this episode about learning moments?

Speaker 2: 49:47

I want to say to any pregnant mom out there that's listening to this I hope I didn't freak you out Listen to birth podcast. Listen to people's stories. You'll learn so much. You're capable of so much more than you realize. Don't let anyone's fear get into your sphere. Just have strong boundaries and be very, very, very decisive about who you invite into your birth and always listen to your intuition sometimes our intuition is way more spot on than our brain and use your intuition when you're making any choice around your care provider and you've 100% got this.

Speaker 1: 50:26

Awesome. That's great advice, and God gave us our intuition, so definitely tune into that, because he gave it to us for a reason, and thank you so much, diana, for being here today. This has been fantastic. I'm looking forward to talking with you more as well, and I know everyone is in for a treat next week as well, so thank you for being here today.

Speaker 2: 50:46

Thank you, rebecca.

Speaker 1: 50:48

Awesome and thank you for tuning in and for being on this journey with us. If you would like to follow Diana, you can follow her on Instagram at healingbirth. You can also find her on her website, healingbirthnet, and, of course, you can find her podcast Streamin Everywhere it's called Healing Birth. Definitely check her out, listen to those birth stories and let us know what you think. I love, love, love the stories that you share and I'm so excited for this audience to hear more from you there too. If you would like to follow along outside the podcast, you can join the mission on Instagram at the Radiant Mission on Instagram or on Facebook at the Radiant Mission podcast. And, of course, you can always watch this podcast in video format if you're not doing it right now on YouTube at the Radiant Mission, or just look for Rebecca Tumi. Today we are going to close with a Bible verse that Diana actually really loves and finds her center in when it comes to birth. So I'm going to read from Matthew 6, verses 5 through 14.

Speaker 1: 52:01

And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray, standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly, I tell you, they have received their reward in full, but when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your father, who is unseen. Then your father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like the pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your father knows what you need before you even ask him.

Speaker 1: 52:34

This, then, is how you should pray Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors, and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one, for if you forgive other people when they sit against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive you. And we are wishing you a radiant week and we'll see you next time. Bye, everybody.