Okay, here we are. This is our latest version of Radio Free Flint. I'm Arthur Bush. And today we have a really, really good show on hand. Better than most all the others. Not that they weren't that good, but I know this guy that we're going to interview, and he has he has it all in terms of performance ability. So no further ado, I'm going to introduce you to a guy that we affectionately call Harpo. His name is John Harpst. And he for many years lived in Flint and has uh been an advertising executive through our region for even longer. And uh I wanted him to come on and talk to us about the Bobby Krim Road race, uh his experiences uh in Flint and his career at uh he had a short diversion to politics for some reason, and uh talk a little bit about that sort of stuff. So, John, welcome to my show. Arthur, thank you kindly. It's good to speak to you again after so many years.
SPEAKER_01Uh well, I haven't needed an attorney, so why would you talk to me? Well, you've gotten smarter after all those lawsuits. Well, I quit working for people that were trying to steal from me, so I didn't need you to come in and save me and win both of my cases. Thank you very much.
State of MI ArchivistYou know, that was one thing people never figured out about my career. They always think of me as, you know, being a criminal lawyer, but I spent probably half of my career representing people in in the media market who were employees of all the broadcasting stations. And I can't even tell. I think I sued every broadcasting outlet in the in the Flint uh Bay City Saginaw Midland media market. Yeah, well, you did two for me, and we won both of them, so that's a good thing. I know, and I I love and I and some of the station owners I became extremely close with over the years, and then of course, uh your friend uh in mine, Mark and Dana Park, who were also kind of under the radar kind of people who own park.
SPEAKER_00Wait a minute, wait a minute. Mark and and Dana were under the radar?
State of MI ArchivistWell, that they weren't publicly known. I mean, they were known to the people in the industry, but they weren't public figures and they didn't seem to want to be on camera. They wanted their clients to be on camera.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
State of MI ArchivistBut I you know, thinking about those people right now, you know, the public has no idea how uh over decades how much they shape their impression of what we let let me tell you a quick side.
SPEAKER_01This is not where we were going. No, that's the situation happens. There's a guy downtown Flint, owns a Ford dealership, been there since like 1910. There's a corporate legal rule about franchise distances with Ford Motor Company. It says you can't put another dealer inside a five-mile radius. Well, they put Al Bennett, the dealing man, into that five-mile radius on Miller Road, and Hank Graff's dad and Hank were at the at the very least really upset because you know they had survived with Ford in a GM town, and they thought that they had really been betrayed, and and I think they were right. They went out and bought from Bob Up to Graaff, the store in Davison. And you know, Bob was more into shooting rifles and stuff, and he really didn't, I don't think, enjoyed being in the car business. And and the Graff franchise was one store at that time, and they were struggling because you know they had Summerfield, they had Applegate, they had McNally. Um, I don't know who had the store in uh Fenton before Vic, but uh, you know, so it was tough. And Mark went to them and said, I'll handle your advertising, but I have one rule that you must agree to, or we're not gonna do it. You can figure out to do this on your own. And he said, Well, what's the rule? He says, We take all of your budget, everything that you're spending in print, everything that's in outdoor, everything that's in radio, it all goes to television. Period. No exceptions. And you know, that's that was a big step. But they agreed to it. And of course, they put Hank on TV. You know, he's handsome as the devil, and you know, everybody that knows him likes him, and and they started doing these commercials, and it was you know, it was artsy, it was folksy, it was just great. And the dealership grew. And I went in there one day because I was calling on him, you know, selling them stuff. And Hank's dad, who, if you'll remember, had a real gruff voice. Hey Johnny, come out in here. I want to show you something.
SPEAKER_03Right. I remember him.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, he was a great guy. And he says, he says, look at this. These are the plans for the expansion of the location in Davison. He said to me, he says, We're going to spend more money on the expansion than we spent buying the dealership. That's how big they had gotten. So, you know, but Mark Parr made car dealers a lot of money because he he knew how to use television, right?
State of MI ArchivistAnd he had that voice. That if I played that voice right now, I bet you that half this audience would know know that voice. They just oh yeah, yeah, put a face to it. But you know, I just as an aside, my first baseball team at Freeman School was Otto P. Graf.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
State of MI ArchivistAnd uh and I always I always tease Hank whenever I see him about that, that he launched my my my baseball career that wasn't.
SPEAKER_01Um well, I didn't know him, but I I knew Max. I I know Hank. Uh yeah, I know Chris a little bit, but uh you know, really good family, good people. But that's a long way from what we started to talk about.
State of MI ArchivistWell, I want to talk about 1966 and uh the year that you got tossed out of Central Michigan University.
SPEAKER_01Well, I actually graduated. That's how they tossed me out. They said, if we give you a degree, will you promise not to come back? I said yes, and then I got my master's at Eastern.
State of MI ArchivistWell, before you left Central Michigan University, you set the world on fire on the football field, I'm told.
SPEAKER_01Well, it was a very small brush fire that was put out quickly.
State of MI ArchivistAnd what position did you play for the Chippewas? I was an end. Really? You were fast? Huh? You were fast? No, no, I was shifty. You were a tight end or you were a wide receiver.
SPEAKER_01You know, it's a it's a funny situation. Not a lot, I don't tell this story very often.
State of MI ArchivistThat's why I asked it.
SPEAKER_01I had a I had a terrible high school career academically. Going into my senior year, I didn't have a two-point. You know, it was a different time. You know, people were either going to NAM when they graduated or they were going to the Ford plant to work. And I really wasn't sure what I was going to do, but I had terrible grades. And I played football for a guy named Roger Sciverini, who was a really, really good coach and a great human being. And he came to me one day and he says, hey, he says, the coach from central Michigan was here and looked at your films, and he'd really like to get you to come up there, but he's afraid looking at your grades that you couldn't memorize the playbook. So I went and I took the entrance exam. I did really well, and I got in. And back then they had freshman football. So I'm on the freshman team, and they moved up two guys in front of me that were ends. Then they moved up a third guy, and I went to him and I said, Hey coach, I says, you know, I dominate those three guys in practice, and you moved them up. I'm sitting down here carrying water still. He says, Well, he says, I still don't believe you're going to be here as a sophomore. And he said, I think they will be. He says, I just don't want to invest the time in you. You know, the uh year ends. I come back the next year, 1962, and you won't remember this, but they had the limited substitution rule. You could only substitute three people at a time. Well, you know, a great football player from the Flint area, Gary Finnan, he was still there. Al Bishop was still there. We had really super football players from the Flint area. And all those three guys that they moved up in front of me, they were toast, they were all gone. You know, they either dropped out or flunked out. So I find myself starting some of the games going both ways. And you know, I ended up, I survived four years, uh, you know, playing both ways at about 210 pounds. Then my junior year, I found pasta, pizza, and beer. I played my junior year at 255. Uh oh. And then I went to Fort Riley to officer school, you know, another dimension of me that most people don't know about. I go through officers training at Fort Riley. I come back at 192 pounds from 255 to 192. I walk down the field, and Kelly, the football coach, Bill Kelly, he said, Are you all right? What happened to you? Where's the rest of you? And I you know, I you know, you go to Fort Riley, it's you know, it doesn't go up below 100 for three weeks in a row. You run every place you go. I was in the best shape I'd ever been in my life my senior year. So that that's kind of the the football side of it. And there was an article ran in Monroe Paper, you know, a nice picture of me, made me look good, looked like it had been airbrushed, but I don't think they did that back then. But it says, you know, harps mixes football with acting, because I was a drama major. You know, Monroe, by the way, Monroe's your your hometown where you were where you were raised. Monroe is my hometown, the home of Lazy Boy Chair, Monroe Auto Equipment that you know as Monroe Shock Absorbers. I just put them on the uh General George, General George Armstrong Custer, who graduated last in his class. It must be the water, that's all I can think of. And of course, me. But uh fun town.
State of MI ArchivistSo anyway, you got lost on your story. I interrupt, I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_01Well, I that was the story how how football became kind of a of a mystery, it was a challenge. It was kind of just how I've done no.
State of MI ArchivistI want to know about your Academy Award-winning appearance. You know, you're talking to somebody that helped make the movie that won an Academy Award and I also appeared on the camera.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, no, I didn't win any awards, but uh yeah, I did Judd in Oklahoma, I did uh picnic, uh, you know, I did a number of school stuff. And then another interesting deal, a guy from Monroe named Vern Snyder, a Notre Dame grad. You know how you don't know the author's name, but you know the books. He wrote a thing called Tea House of the August Moon. You know, it was a best-selling book. They made it into a movie, they made it into a Broadway play, you know, all these things. And he had told me, he says, if you want, he says, I can guarantee you a job in Hollywood. Well, I was such a sissy, you know, picking up at 21 years old and going to Hollywood, you know, even if you had a job, was terrifying. So I, you know, I did what I was trained to do. I became a teacher.
State of MI ArchivistWow.
SPEAKER_01And then you ended up in Flint. I did end up at Flint. I went to work at WTRX with a guy named Bill Bowling and a friend of yours, Robert Eastman.
State of MI ArchivistOh yeah. And uh Eastman Enterprises.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, uh, interesting boss. Uh taught me things that I still use today, uh, about you know, just general lifestyles, uh, you know, liking good things. Uh Bob was very good to me. Uh Ann, his wife and I still talk periodically on the internet. Uh, she's from a little village outside of town here. But uh, so you know, I I worked there for two, three years, went to work for an ad agency. Bob sold the radio station, and the new owners hired me back as their general sales manager, and then the economy went south, you know, when Carter was president, and they combined jobs. Uh, I became unemployed. Uh, I was originally going to help Carl Bukowski run for mayor after the charter revision. Carl decided his time with Abby Hoffman might not look good, so he uh he backed away from that. And and Rutherford, you know, I had very little in common with Jim.
State of MI ArchivistBut I later became the mayor of Flint.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I I liked the way he talked. He was very blunt. I liked the things that he said, and I went down to volunteer. And and Nan Lunn, who was running this office at the time, calls him up and she says, Jim would like to see you at his house. Here's his address. So I go out to his house there on Chelsea Circle, and he said, I'd like you to run my campaign. He said, I know a little bit about your background. You know, in the ad agency business, we had we had handled Bob Leonard's stuff when he was having a problem. We had done John O'Brien's stuff when he beat Bell.
State of MI ArchivistHe was the chair of he's the old chair.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. And he said, we'd had some successes. You know, I'd done Harley Caswell's, you know, he became a judge, and you know, some others. So, you know, pretty successful. Did Gary Corbyn's with John Cherry. You know, John ran the campaign. We did the media.
State of MI ArchivistThat senator, he's a state senator that just passed away here not long ago.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I know it. Terrible deal. You know, Gary's just a he got to be one of the nicest people I've ever met in my life.
State of MI ArchivistAmazing guy, yes. I agree.
SPEAKER_01Oh, tremendous.
State of MI ArchivistThen you worked with Cherry John Cherry, the former lieutenant governor. He's a former lieutenant governor and senator.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah. Yeah, in fact, John was kind enough. We have a little small democratic organization here, and John came down a couple years ago and spoke for us. Uh, you know, great presentation. He's he's just, you know, there's one thing for sure. If you don't lock yourself up and throw the key away, and you live in in Genesee County, particularly in Flint, you are gonna have friends for life that you meet there. Because that's just the nature of the people. It's just it's tremendous. I I've you know lived in North Carolina, I've lived in Memphis, I've lived in Saginaw and you know, Adrian and other places. I don't have that kind of list of people that I can contact. In Flint, I got a ton of people. That's just the nature of them. But uh anyhow, Rutherford says, I'd like you to run my campaign. I said, I don't think so. I said, you know, I'm not very good at being the front guy, the guy at the top. I'm better being down here at the bottom giving ideas and suggestions and making sure stuff gets done. He said, No. He said, I want you to run the campaign. He says, the guy I'm using is not getting it done. He doesn't have the the full scope, he doesn't understand everything. I said, Well, I'll tell you what, the answer is no. He said, Why is the answer no? I said, because you're a former chief of police, you're a former cop, you're a former assistant city manager, you don't know how to take orders. You've never had to really take orders, you're used to telling people what to do. That's for sure. He says, Look at he says, I want you to be my campaign manager, I will take your orders. I said, I'll tell you what, if you'll take my orders for two, maybe three weeks, no one knows it but you and me. I'll give you the instructions, you pretend like it's yours. I said, then we'll revisit this. So, Arthur, for three weeks, I ran his ass ragged, pardon the expression. Uh, we were up at six in the morning at plant gates, you know, so he had to get up at 4:30, five o'clock. We'd we'd go to meetings, we'd go door to door. You name it, we did it. I mean, he had to change he would change clothes literally two or three times a day because he'd be soaking wet. John, what year was this? Well, 74. Um, he was put in office in 75, so it was the summer of 74. Okay. The election was that fall, he was and then of course he was sworn in the first of the year.
State of MI ArchivistHe was the first uh what we call strong mayor. That is, he was on his own accord to run as the executive, whereas in the past the council just picked one of the things.
SPEAKER_01You know, depending on your yeah, but uh you don't start with me on the government of the city of Flint.
State of MI ArchivistNo, I just want to make sure people understand what the structure is for you know, so they can understand how you know it was there was a there was a rule of order, uh and they followed it, and it it worked pretty well.
SPEAKER_01Nothing in government is perfect, but it worked pretty well. But so, you know, he was running against Floyd McCree, who was extremely popular, and was it was a dear friend of mine. But I I really felt that the the problems that the city was facing at the time, the energy that it was going to take, that the Jim was best suited for. I think he won by 186 votes out of over I I don't remember the number, maybe 80,000 cast. Is that possible back then? Maybe 40,000, one of the two. But anyhow, he he was elected, and then the election was challenged. Uh, we had to go to court, uh, it was upheld, and uh, you know, he was elected one time for a second term, and a lot of things happened, most of them good. Uh, you know, they built the industrial air park, which was a nightmare to finish. They built uh River Village, which was even a bigger nightmare. Uh again, an aside, the the state of Michigan, you know, the Mott Foundation, and of course, Harding was still alive, and I think Bill White was already there, but uh, they had put all the money into the infrastructure. Urban renewal took the land, everything was utilities underground. Um, streets, I think, had been poured. It was an enormous project, 50 acres. Blended housing, you know, with a high rise for the seniors and apartments and you know, condo type facilities, and a blended structure where there were people in there that were full section eight, poor people, and then people that were paying all their own rent, people that were you know gainfully employed and doing well. And it I I hope it still exists successfully today. But uh it does actually, it still does. And one time a guy named David Froh, who was the he was with Mishta, he said, No, you guys are gonna have to take out that electric company that's there, you know, the one that sold lights and stuff, and there was a farmers market there, and a couple of other there were four businesses, and then we had to give up the the road that's there and take a green belt straight to the river. Well, there was no money for it. And Rutherford was not inclined to go back and knock on the door of the Mott Foundation again. He felt that you know they had done their share, plus some, and he says, tell them no, call their bluff. So we're in a meeting in Krim's office, because I know we'll get to Krim eventually. And Tom Husband is speaker of the house. And and Tom Husband's the executive secretary to the speaker, and he's hosting this meeting. And we're there two hours, and this David Fro is trying to explain why we have to do this. Finally, at the end of two hours, I've got my suit coat off, my vest is unbuttoned, my tie is open, I'm sweating like a stuck pig. And I look at him, I say, Look at David, here's the deal. We're not doing it. You go back and tell your governor we're not doing it, and then you have him call the Mott Foundation, his friends, and explain to them why the millions of dollars they've invested is just gonna go to bird seed and weeds. I walked out of the room. A day later, I get a call from Mr. They're gonna come in and reevaluate the site. You know, I knew I had them at that point. And uh, you know, they they reneged, they backed off and and we built it. And I mean, it's just you know, things like that. Rutherford had a great sense for what he could get accomplished. And he wasn't afraid to stand up for himself, you know.
State of MI ArchivistNo, he he was uh very uh uh assertive leader, and uh I happened to grow up, you know, with his kids and went to school with his children and and known him, you know, since I was a young boy, and my parents uh knew Jim and his family. Um but actually, John, you and I, I said I was gonna do this, you and I actually first met in the state capitol building when uh I was working as a legislative assistant to uh then state representative Mark Cloudfelter, who was from Flint. And uh I remember the first time I met you, but I was just curious what what your impression was at that time.
SPEAKER_01Well, you you you already know I didn't remember that because I am 76 and I've got a little bit of halfheimers, but I will tell you this: you worked for the smartest member of the legislature I've ever met. He happened to be my state rep, and he was just absolutely brilliant. Uh, he taught me a lesson that I still use today. We had a piece of legislation that was designed and written for the city of Flint only. I know most of the people listening to this will never believe that happened because it was all Coleman Young or Grand Rapids or Traverse City, you know, or the UP, but there was a piece of legislation and it dealt with uh some kind of a tech capture deal, a TIFFA type deal for rehabbing or restoring buildings in the downtown. And it was it was written in such a way that it allowed others in, but it was written for us. And the bill had passed both chambers and went to the floor. No, no, the the bill had passed one chamber and was in another one, and it got revised, it got amended, and it it didn't hurt the bill, but it just it set it back a little bit. And I was so irritated by it when I went into Mark's office, I kicked a wastebasket.
State of MI ArchivistUh oh.
SPEAKER_01You know, the old ways. You know, I was just so irritated that they would just social tinker with this thing for no benefit, just to prove that they were doing something. And Mark said, What in the world is the problem? And I told him what had happened. He says, John, he says, You've been here long enough to know most people don't even get a bill to committee. Even members. You got a bill in committee. Most people don't get it passed. You got it passed. Yeah, you didn't get everything, but you got a big piece of the pie. Come back next year and get the last piece. Relax. And and I I I've never forgotten it. I still use that today in anything that I'm doing, uh, which I am involved with a uh a nonprofit raising money for scholarships with the rotary club that I belong to. And and that's the approach that we take to it. We've been very successful.
State of MI ArchivistWe uh now you were uh you were the legislative director for the city of Flint, better known as a lobbyist.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, my mother asked me one time, Arthur, what do you do for a living? I said, I'm a lobbyist for the city of Flint. Oh, she says, Don't tell me that. She says, I can't tell our friends that. I said, Okay, tell them I'm the director of governmental relations. She says, That I can do. And you were. That was true.
State of MI ArchivistThat was actually your title. And and what people don't understand about that is that that position has changed like dramatically as well over the years. Uh you know, the the lobbyist got to know almost everybody, and that's how you got to know me because I had the desk right off the floor of the house with a telephone. And uh and Mark Cloudfelter was ring center of a whole lot of stuff in those days.
SPEAKER_01Uh well, y'all, I don't know if I'd have known what to do uh but for the help of Ted Mansur and particularly Augie Brandt. Oh, great job. Yeah, Augie Brandt was the uh you you talk, he was like a dad. He was a mentor. He just he said, no, no, no, no, don't go that way, go this way. And what the other thing that was interesting for me is you know, I knew the Wellborn brothers because I had owned a part of a shoe store in Kalamazoo, so I knew them. I got to know Harry Damaso really well, and other those guys were Republicans. Harry was a Republican. I had done work for Sandy Brotherton after he left Chrysler as an exec. So I had this package of not only the guys you know from Flint, and there we had no female representation at the time, uh, but I had all this packet of Republicans that I knew that I don't know if they liked me, but they trusted me. They knew that if I told them something, that's what it was gonna be. You know, and that was the rule working for Rutherford, you know, just tell the truth if they don't like it, you know, too bad. But don't lie to them.
State of MI ArchivistSo you know, John, before I took that job I had with Mark uh Claudfelter, I worked for the UAW lobbyist, which was um a hell of a place to start out in politics at age 19. Uh so going to Mark Claudfelter, I felt for a second there was a demotion until I got to know Mark Claudfelter, and then I realized that I just went from you know to the locker room to where the professor's office was because yeah, you were in the executive offices mentally with him.
SPEAKER_01I mean, he was you know just genius.
State of MI ArchivistUnbelievable. But uh uh one of the things I always got a kick out of uh your self-descript your your description of some of the characters that were out of our own caucus, which is a Democratic caucus from Genesee County, and we had one of the wackiest guys that uh was in the legislature at the time. Uh and I'll let you guess which name that was.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna mention it. You know, you'd you talk about it.
State of MI ArchivistWell, I ended up prosecuting him of all things many years later, unfortunately, as state senator, and uh his reputation was something else.
SPEAKER_01Um very unfortunate. Uh oh he was he was sick. Um, and and we would probably have detected it and treated it better and differently today. Um I think so. So you know, you talk about characters, though. I don't know if you know this, but the first tax increment financing package in the state of Michigan was done by the city of Flint. When that bill was passed, there were two states, California and bewildering to me, Minnesota, who had tax increment financing. Now a standard tool for economic development in in the state of Michigan and around the country. But we had worked, we Rutherford had worked a deal with Mr. Pritzker, who then was the head of the Hyatt chain. And they had agreed to build this hotel. There was a you know, that was before the tax code change in 86, so they were able to raise money, and I think the depreciation schedule is either three years or five years for the total investment. It was mind-boggling. And the agreement was the city would build a parking deck. Well, we weren't as computerized back then. Of course, we're an income tax city and the economy was going in the toilet. And about halfway through the fiscal year, Rutherford calls me up and he says, Are you familiar with tax increment financing? Yeah, he said, Well, we need it passed. John Kelly had it tied up from the Detroit area, Senator Friday. Ex-military guy, good guy, but he and he and Corbyn were fighting. Corbin had a bill of his, and he was able to tie down the tax increment financing deal. So we were able to you know convince everybody finally that yes, everybody's bill is going to move on the same day. Krim had taken care of it in the House. Uh the Senate was covered with with Corbyn. So Kelly's bill and the tax increment financing bill both passed the same day. Both went to the governor for immediate signature. And of course, Milliken was a great leader, understood the problems of cities, and he signed it instantly. But uh the city of Flint was the first one to use tax increment financing in the state of Michigan, which I've always been pretty proud of.
State of MI ArchivistWhich is a great economic development tool. Well, let's uh switch switch gears here for a little bit because one of my best friends in those years was a lady named Lois. Craig. Lois Craig. Never heard of her. Who who some call the mother of the of the crime road race, of course. I'm good, I'm good with that. I'm good with that.
SPEAKER_01He gets let me let me tell you, let me tell you an interesting story about the crime road race. I'm gonna tell you something that there aren't five people in the world that know the answer to this. One is Krim, one is Lois Craig, and one is a guy named Les Left who now lives in Hermitage, Tennessee. And beyond that, there may not be a living soul that knows this story. And I'll go back a step beyond this. Krim was invited by Don Brown and Roger Griffin to come to Area 13 Summer Games for Special Olympics in Davison. He was asked to be a hugger. Probably changed Bobby's life as much as anything he's ever done. So he's out there hugging these kids as they finish the finish line. You know, some of them first, some of them last. It makes no difference. They're so happy to compete. And they convince him to become the state fundraiser for Michigan Special Olympics next year. So, you know, there's things that he can do, but he loves to run, and Les Left is his running buddy. Oh, Walt Sorg would know the answer to this, too. But that's it. Four guys, four people, three guys and a gal, Lois. And the uh decision is they're gonna have a 10-mile road race, and it's gonna be held at Huckleberry Junction. Did you hear that? Huckleberry Junction, out in the middle of nowhere with tumbleweed, for God's sakes. And then the second year, because marathons were the big deal, it's gonna be a marathon. Well, I happen to be sitting in Tom Husband's office. I'd mentioned his name earlier, he's the executive secretary, and we're talking about a piece of legislation, and in comes less left. Less is like a fireball. You know, the dust flies every place less goes back then. And he says, Hey Tom, I just wanted you to know we've got it worked out. It's gonna be at Huckleberry Railroad out of the county parks, gonna be a 10-mile the first year, gonna be a marathon the second. And you can see Tom shrinking into his seat. He knows that there's a problem coming. I says, Hey guys, what are we talking about? Oh, he says, you know, Krim's, you know, gonna be the fundraiser and they're gonna do this road race to raise money for Special Olympics. I said, Well, Tom, you want me to tell Rutherford that that race is gonna start in Flint or end in Flint? And there's dead silence. I says, I got a better idea. What about we'll hold the whole thing in Flint? He said, Oh no, you can't possibly do it. We it takes weeks to get a course certified. I says, Let me ask you a question. This is like on a Tuesday or Wednesday. I says, if I can have it certified and agreed to by Monday, will you hold it in Flint? And he thought, yo, shit, there's no chance this is gonna happen. He says, Yeah. I said, Great. I get in the car and I drive back at a rate of speed higher than the limit, straight to Rutherford's office, tell him the deal. He says, get it done, make it happen. Those were his instructions, man. I mean, that's about it. That's how he worked. I had known Mark Bauman. I did not know John Galt, two guys from the Riverbend Striders.
State of MI ArchivistMark Galt. Great guys.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and a super guy. I went out and saw Mark, told him what the deal was, asked him if that could be done. Could they certify a course? He looked at me like I'd lost my mind. He says, Let me call John, we'll see. The next morning he calls me and he says, We'll get it done. He says, We will have this course measured and certifiable, and we will put it in the mail on Monday. He says, We can get instant certification. So the River Bend Striders, to their credit, and to Mark and John, because they're the guys that did it, they went out and they measured that course with all the different options. You know, you got to measure it a certain way or it's it's not accurate. And they had that thing ready and done. Went over to Bill Beamer at Mott Community College and said, Bill, we're going to do this road race. We really need to use the college. Of course, it's in August. They're not busy, but we need a building for registration. We need parking lots. You know, we might need showers. You know, can can Mott sign up and join us? You know, he he didn't even call Papas. He said, Yeah, I'll tell Charlie what we're doing.
State of MI ArchivistThat's the president of the college.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, the president of the college. And but that was the that was the community commitment and how it worked.
State of MI ArchivistStarted with Bohemian. Started with Yeah, what a great name in Flint history. Bill Bill Blamer was just a great guy. Oh, absolutely. Tremendous. He was the president of the college and a mentor to me as well.
SPEAKER_01And people all over the state knew him. I mean, he was a legend. But anyhow, so we get the course certified and everything's going. And Les Left had been kind of the front guy in the office when it was going out to the county parts. But Lois was involved with that. The minute it was going to be in Flint, Lois and I became attached at the hip. For 10 years, Lois and I ran the Krim Road race out of a duffel bag. We had no board of directors. We had nobody to answer to but each other and our respective bosses, Jim Rutherford and Bobby Krim. The nine years it was like that. The tenth year they established the board of directors, and it was a you know not a good environment for me. And I left and I had sour grapes, and I still have sour grapes. But along the way, Krim calls one day and he says, I've appointed you to be on the board of directors of Michigan Special Olympics. I says, Okay, why am I doing that? He says, There's something going on that's not good. He said, I don't know what it is. And he says, I need you on the board to find out. Well, they blackballed me. They voted me down. And and you know how Krim can be when he loses his temper? Yeah. He didn't need a phone to call Special Olympics and tell them to vote again. I mean, he was furious. Well, he was the ringmaster, he was the ringmaster of the largest circus in Michigan for a long time. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. But so I get on the board. The day I'm elected to the board and being, you know, put on, the guy that's the executive director, a fellow I've known for years, resigns. Well, what had happened was, and Krim had gotten adrift of it, but wasn't sure of the detail. Turns out that this guy had created something called central funding. They were going to raise all the money so the area directors didn't have to do that anymore. All the area directors were volunteers back then, and they had to raise their own money to send their athletes to winter games, to the bowling tournament, to summer games, to all the different Special Olympic events that took place. Well, when I got on the board, they had borrowed and had no means to pay back a half a million dollars from Central Michigan, who of course has hosted Michigan Special Olympics forever. Uh, so there was a scandal brewing. And I get a call and he says, We're gonna pick you up on such and such a day at the airport. Walth flew, so we were able to fly to Walloon Lake, I think up in the by you know, up in the finger of the mitten, to a meeting, and devised a method for repayment, a lot of pressure on the area directors, and then a commitment that we would raise money through the Krim Road race to help pay this money back. So the first year we did the road race, our I think we sent Special Olympics, and it was proportional because we were raising so much of the money in Genesee County, a certain amount stayed there with Don Brown and Roger Griffin to run their program, and the rest went to the state. Second year, I think we raised$65,000, maybe. The third year we raised like$70,000,$75,000, and we were always looking for ways to raise money. Lois, you know, her relationship with that running community was unbelievable. We raised so much money with runner pledges, and she handled all kinds of stuff, and it was a great relationship. Lois says, I'm gonna do this. I never asked her how it was going. I told Lois, I'll take care of this. She never asked me how it was going. We just knew we'd get it done. You know, that Flint mentality again. So we go to a guy named Bob Prees. Bob was the head of a company called Cyber at the time. Cyber means nothing to you until you spell it backwards. It's Arby's. Arby's has been sold to a company, Steve Smith owned it, who still runs the crimp. He ran it last year. I get a note from him all the time when he runs it. So we came up with a fundraiser scheme where we would uh no cost to Arby's. We we print a coupon book. The first coupon in it is for a free soft drink. You have to buy the book for a dollar. The free soft drink is worth a dollar, so the patron has no expense, and then there's all these coupons for different sandwich deals. So again, it was one of those deals that started out slow, but I think the third year that we did it, we raised net over$100,000. So through that fundraiser with Arby's, first it was just the cyber stores, then the uh the um Ganakases over in Lansing, you know, the boys over there who's Gus's kids, they came on board, they're Sparties, you ought to be pleased with that. Then Grand Rapids came on board, and finally Detroit came on board. So we had every Arby's in the state of Michigan selling these coupons. And we raised a ton of money for Special Olympics. We got them out of debt, we added two more statewide games. Almost every district in the state added athletes because there was you know help out there. Um that's what the Krim Road race was designed to do. And like I said, I've always said sour grapes. It's a it's a shame that they other than what Lois did, you know, Lois continued to raise money from the runners forever. You'd get a letter in the mail, you knew the crim was coming. She says, Yo, I need a check for$13. Or you can read between the lines, or$130, or or whatever. So she raised money for Area 13. And if she's the mother of the Krim Road race, which which again I'll buy into, she's also the mother of helping fund Area 13.
State of MI ArchivistLois Craig, just so our listeners have a little more of a backstory on Lois Craig. Lois Craig worked for Bobby Krim and was was uh, you know, she had a straight line to Bobby Crimm, that was for sure when he was the speaker of the Michigan House of Representatives in the day when they actually were run correctly. And she could organize just about anything I've ever seen. And and over the years, uh whatever I learned about politics and being nice to people, that's where I learned it from.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
State of MI ArchivistEverybody and everybody had respect for her. And she was married for a long time to Bob Craig, who was uh a Democratic fundraiser and stockbroker in the Flint area.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah.
State of MI ArchivistShe was well liked and and uh uh and spent many basically her whole adult life just about working on the Bobby Krim. Well, John, we're running out of Time here. Some of the characters you met in politics over the years were pretty interesting fellas. So we got to keep it short because we got about three minutes left. One of them I wanted to ask you about was Joel Ferguson, the uh member of the Michigan, longtime member of the Michigan State Board of Trustees. I think he's the senior member of that board. Uh a tremendous character in Michigan. He's a builder, owner of media properties uh in the Lansing area.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I worked for him.
State of MI ArchivistTell us a little bit about Joel. He's uh he's a good thing.
SPEAKER_01Joel Ferguson was on the was on the DNC.
State of MI ArchivistHe was on the um board Democratic National Committee.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, he he literally coordinates the election process or at the time, I don't know if he still does, of the African American community here in the state. Um, I would just tell you, and I hope he hears this, he's as good a boss as I've ever worked for. I worked for him for almost seven years. We had one argument. One, and that's not easy with me, because I'm a pain and I know it, but uh a guy that loves Michigan, he loves the democratic process, he is a Democrat, but he on the board worked better with Republicans than anybody that's ever been on that board that was a Democrat. He was as good as there was. He told me one day, I said, Joel, I says, Who's the best member of the Board of Trustees you ever worked with? And he said it was Dean Pridgin, who's a Republican from over in Hillsdale County. I said, Well, why is that? He says, Dean Pridgin, when it came to the university, had only one goal make it better for the university. He didn't care if he worked with me or whatever. And I found that an interesting deal with Joel that and and generous to a fault. He would pay people's rent, he would buy their food, he'd fix their cars, and nobody ever knew it. And I said to him, Joel, I says, I'm saving you a fortune, I'm making you all this money. I said, Why don't you help me a little bit? I said, You're always helping these people that call you. He says, John, he says, You can take care of yourself. These people need my help.
State of MI ArchivistHe's a character and a deal maker, I must say.
SPEAKER_01Oh, absolutely. He's tremendous. I like him, and I I saw him negotiate a deal between Sister Sojourn and Bill Clinton when he was running. Remember, they had the deal about the lyrics and the song about killing cops? Oh, yeah. He maneuvered that. I saw him quietly negotiate Nick Saban's first contract with the university. And the athletic director and the president didn't know it, but he was talking to Nick and Nick's agent, Jimmy, down in Memphis, and going back and forth and in the middle saying, No, you can do this, but you can't do this to Saban, and saying, Yeah, you can do this, but you can't do that to the university, because he knew the importance of getting them.
State of MI ArchivistYeah, there's a guy that you know is an unsung hero in many respects that people in Michigan, I mean, he's a businessman and has done a lot for Lansing of his development projects, but just a tremendous, uh, a tremendous figure in Michigan history. Uh, John, one other person I want to close out with is uh Governor Milliken. You worked during your years in uh in politics, I guess. You worked at the election with the staff.
SPEAKER_01Bill Milliken probably had as good an understanding of the needs of the urban community as anybody that that's ever been governor in this state for sure. Uh he had a guy named Doug Ross, who was chief of staff. Um Doug was Doug was my direction. I had tried to get into the funny story for me. I had tried to get in to see him and couldn't and couldn't and couldn't. You know, sometimes the gatekeeper's tough to beat. I'm on Mackinac Island, Ruby and I are in a carriage ride, and a guy in shorts comes jogging past us, and it's Millican. I've got street clothes on and regular shoes. I jump out of the carriage, I run up beside him, he says, Can I hide? Can I get away from you? Why do you want to see me? And I told him, he said, I can support that. I said, Okay, I'll get back in the cart. He's oh god, thank you. But you know, just uh a good guy, a good working partner for Krim, they they would sit down and you know, they would compromise, you know, a word you never hear anymore. They would work stuff out, they would find a way, and there was never a loss of memory. If one of them helped the other, they remembered it because they had one coming back. You know, there was a lot of you know that type of deal that that went on, but that's how you got things done.
State of MI ArchivistYou know, you you compromised, you talked exactly and and more importantly, and I you know, Bobby Krim was really my first boss in uh politics. He gave me my chance.
SPEAKER_01Uh well Bobby Krim, you know, one more side to Bobby Krim, and it goes back to Augie Bram. There were three people in the state of Michigan that really understood the school aid formula and all that went into it. You know, it's a document that's probably seven, eight inches tall when you lay it on the table. Gene Caesar, who ran the staff, Bobby Krim and Augie Brain. Those three people knew more about how our public schools should run. You know, Bobby Krim at his advanced years knows more about public education than Mrs. DeVos will know in her lifetime. And he's forgotten more than she knows now. And he just he understood it. It was it was it was important to him because he knew it was important to the residents of the state of Michigan, no matter what party they belonged to, no matter where they lived. And it's why our public education from K through higher ed grew as it did. You know, Grand Valley probably doesn't even hardly exist today if it wasn't for Bobby Krim.
State of MI ArchivistFor sure. Well, you know, the thing I was gonna say as a young man, uh, have watched both of those uh people uh maneuver in Lansing for the years that I worked in the house, and also for the UAW lobbyists. Uh the word that comes to mind with both of them is civility. You could disagree with them, and they were the most polite, kind, nice. They knew that every day was a new battle. And uh what a great, what a great uh where in the hell did all that go?
SPEAKER_01Well, there was there's one time I gotta take exception, on the house floor, speaker was at the podium, he had the gavel in his hand, and it was uh early afternoon, you know, mean what two o'clock when they start, and in walked Dominic Jacobetti. Oh my god, he was hammered, he was so drunk, he was hammered, and they tried to do something, and Jake voted no.
State of MI ArchivistUh-oh.
SPEAKER_01And you could see Krim start to boil, and he looked at him, and Jake gave him the one-finger salute.
State of MI ArchivistUh-oh.
SPEAKER_01You never saw the gavel pass to the next person so fast. He called Frank Falarin and told Frank to jack his butt off the floor. He wanted him in the press room behind the speakers podium, and and he wanted to talk to him now. There was and and and and I I've, you know, I've never seen Krim so mad in my life. And of course, he loved Jacobetti, they were buddies.
State of MI ArchivistWell, but just for some background, we called Jacobetti in the in the State House the Godfather. Oh, absolutely. And then it's been there a million years. He got smaller though, because then they started calling the godfather of the you fee. But he he really was the godfather of the appropriations process in Lansing.
SPEAKER_01One quick one. Let me interrupt you. One time Jacob Betty got mad about something on the on the floor, and he stood up and he said, Yo, he says, if we're gonna do this, he says, I'm just gonna proceed. I'm gonna suggest that the state separate, that the UP secede from the union, become the next state. And one of the Republicans said, I'll tell you what, Jake, I'll vote for it if you'll take Detroit with you.
State of MI ArchivistYeah, you know, some funny stories. But you know, Jacobetti had trained so many speakers of the House to follow Bobby. And and when you look at Gary Owens and Morris Hood and a whole stream of people that followed, they were all under the tutelage of Jacobetti. And they were subcommittee chairman of the appropriations process. And Jake, uh Jacobetti, in my opinion, was uh not just a character and uh a legend, but he also knew how to get stuff done.
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah, and then the other person that was the quiet man was Bill Ryan, who was a tremendous aide to Bobby.
State of MI ArchivistExactly. And I knew Bill and I worked with him uh on legislation, and uh he was the quiet speaker as far as I was concerned. Oh boy, absolutely. He was a quiet man, and but when he spoke, uh you kind of got the gist because he didn't speak very much. But Jacobetti, uh, one day maybe we can get a crew of us that have worked around him because I used to spend just about every night with that guy for a long time. I was in his shoes for the UAW, and uh I could tell you some stories that'll make you laugh. Anyway, John Harps, it's a joy to talk to you again and relive some of those uh great moments in Michigan history. Uh, a lot of people see politics in a different way today, but they didn't understand. I think you know, we we could have another hour discussion about this, but you know, we we served in in Michigan government and in local government during times when we dealt with people that actually knew what the hell was going on. Yeah, and today with term limits, they've just about ruined that.
SPEAKER_01And term limits of term limits I tell people every day are the worst thing that the state of Michigan has ever passed. The people not involved with politics don't understand it. You know, those are the idiots that are trying to put term limits on Congress and every place else. I still think that the term limits on the president are a bad move, but what do I know?
State of MI ArchivistYeah, well, I don't know about that idea right now. But I I can say this about term limits is that it took the people like Bob Emerson and others who, you know, and Joe, even Joe Conroy uh uh away from the state house who actually had many years of experience in this very complicated process that involves, you know, literally millions and even billions of dollars. So, you know, just to put some guy that run a shoe store from you know Nagani in charge of this kind of money, they have no clue what the hell they're talking about.
SPEAKER_01Well, there's an example down here. We had a guy that was a state rep, a Republican, pro-term limits when he got elected. He has a special needs child. Again, my connection with you know Special Olympics, and he served on the community mental health committee. And he tells this story. He said, I studied everything I could find. He said, I read everything. He says, I got to a point where I knew about 70% of what I needed to know. The next year, new stuff would come in from the feds, old stuff would go out, and I'd start the learning process all over again. He says, after six years, I'm termed out. The guy that replaced me was a phys ed teacher, had no knowledge of the mental health needs of the communities, and didn't care. He was just put on the committee. So consequently, staff and lobbyists are wrecking, you know, the people directing his vote, and he's doing it with no knowledge. He's just trusting them to give him the right direction. It's a terrible situation.
State of MI ArchivistYeah, I agree with you there. Well, John, is there one last word you got for the people of Flint? Shalom. Well, peace, peace to you as well. And uh, I wish you the best, you and Ruby out there in uh in the land of uh Trump.
SPEAKER_01Well, I'm in it.
State of MI ArchivistNot that not that I'm not here in uh yeah.
SPEAKER_01The last of the last Democrat elected to a state office here was Paul Porter back in the 70s.
State of MI ArchivistOh my goodness. Anyway, uh I wish you and your uh wife and your children the the best, and it's nice to catch up with you.
SPEAKER_01Uh thanks, Arthur. Peace and love, my friend.
State of MI ArchivistAll right, keep in touch with me. This is Arthur Bush uh with uh John, better known as Harpo. We never even got to the Harpo pizza business. But uh, this this is the two of us, and we're riding out of here. We're taking, as our old friend Dave Barber would say, our tips, and we're gonna ride on home. Goodbye.