Two Chicks and a Hoe
We’re gonna dig deep into some really amazing people and topics — cultivating ideas about nature, the environment and conservation — in your backyard and globally. We want to share stories with you where the only intention may be for you to say,“Wow, I didn’t know that!”…and now that you do, maybe you might think about your relationship with it differently, share the information with a friend or get involved.
Two Chicks and a Hoe
Living Books: Breaking Stereotypes One Story at a Time
Have you ever judged someone before truly getting to know them? We sat down with Ronni Abergel, founder of the Copenhagen based The Human Library, to discover how the power of conversation can challenge stereotypes and prejudices. We delved into the importance of understanding diversity and fostering connection through open dialogue with people from diverse backgrounds and experiences.
Ronni shared his insights on navigating grief and the role The Human Library plays in helping those coping with loss. He opened up about his personal journey following the sudden loss of his wife and highlighted the significance of finding comfort from others who have experienced similar situations. We also explored the process of becoming a volunteer "human book" and the ways readers can access these unique stories from all over the world.
In our thought-provoking discussion, we emphasized the value of connecting with people who are different from us and the power of understanding diversity. By hearing and understanding each other's stories, we can foster connection and break down barriers. Don't miss this inspiring episode that will undoubtedly make you say, "Wow! I love this idea!"
The Human Library
Interview with: Ronni Abergel
Things that make you say "Wow"!
For more episodes and additional information visit the Two Chicks and a Hoe website and our Facebook page.
Big thanks to our Producer, Casey Kennedy.
Did you ever base the decision to read a book because you liked the way the cover looked, or the remarks from another reader sounded intriguing enough to potentially pick the book up? Or you may open a book with preconceived ideas of what you're going to read based upon the cover. A book's cover in this title can sway many people to pick it up or skip it entirely. But could the way a person looks You know their cover Turn you away from talking to them? Would you not talk to someone because of the way they looked? Or perhaps a disability? Or how about the way they dressed? Hi everybody, it's Vanessa from Two Chicks in a Hole, the podcast that digs deeper into some amazing topics, and today we have quite a fascinating topic. I'm very excited And we're going to be chatting with Ronnie Abergale, the founder of the Human Library, which is creating opportunities to challenge stereotypes and prejudices through dialogue A chance to unjudge someone. Welcome, ronnie. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 2:Well, great to be here, Vanessa. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, I told a lot of people about the Human Library and the concept of it And I got a lot of wows. I got a lot of wows and a lot of interest. They had never heard of such a project, Oh damn.
Speaker 2:I'm out of fire. My promoter right now.
Speaker 1:I almost didn't want to say that, but I just thought, you know, this is cool, this is a great reason.
Speaker 2:Let me tell you why we're such a great kept secret. But first remind me we got to need get your t-shirt size, because you're already promoting us. You need some visual help.
Speaker 1:I would love that. I would love that. I want to talk to you too, about you know, listeners, we're going to talk about the potential of bringing the Human Library. It's all over the world, but I'm getting ahead of myself. We'll talk more at the end about what I really would like to do with you.
Speaker 2:All right, well, okay, but nothing kinky though.
Speaker 1:No, you never know It is called two chicks in a hole. That's it.
Speaker 2:That's why when I told people about that they were like wow, what's going on there? That sounds a little. I said don't get, don't miss under. My girlfriend was like what are you doing the next hour? I said you don't want to know. She says I do want to know. I said I'm meeting with two chicks in a hole. She goes what? Tell me again, what are you doing? I said forget about it, you know. But hey, okay, i'll tell you why. We're kind of keeping. We're not keeping it secret.
Speaker 1:Okay, first of all. first of all, tell the listeners what is the Human?
Speaker 2:Library.
Speaker 1:You know, I've said it kind of a little bit, but what is it?
Speaker 2:It is a library similar to the one you know from your community. The biggest difference is we don't have any actual, real books. We have people that have volunteered to be an open book for you, their reader, about their life and lived experience. So we'll have authentic, the real deal on our bookshelf. We'll have a police officer, a sex worker, somebody who's unhoused, somebody who has HIV, somebody who's autistic, bipolar, schizophrenic, somebody who has OCD, somebody who's non-binary, somebody who's transgender, somebody who has a visible disability or an invisible disability, somebody who has a different orientation or a different religious belief than yours, somebody who doesn't believe at all, or somebody who claims to be a Trump supporter or a member of the National Rifle Association. So what we'll do is we'll give you access to a diversity of people that are willing to answer your questions. They're not going to give you a lecture, they're not going to campaign, they don't have a chip on their shoulder and I promise you they're not intolerant. So they're not going to be, you know, there to say, oh, I hate this or I just really don't like that group. They're there to help you better understand their group by being very honest and open and say, okay, ask me anything you want, about my challenge, about my mental health, about my ethnicity, about my religion, about my job, which can be very challenging. I'm a police officer in this community, or I'm a journalist, or I'm a politician. So we've built this concept with 15 pillars of prejudice and from each pillar we draw groups that are suffering or to some extent being not included because of our unconscious bias or our conscious bias, like because we're socially apprehensive, or because we're fearful, or simply because we're intolerant towards this group.
Speaker 2:We think we know everything we need to know about them, but did we ever meet somebody? Did we ever talk to somebody? Did we ever, you know, engage and find out what they're all about? I realized years ago that it's difficult to hate someone once you know them. You may disagree with them, You may even dislike their point of view or the lifestyle they have, or you may, you know, it may really not sit well with you the way they approach certain things in life, but when you get to know them and you understand why, it's just much easier to sort of accept. So sometimes maybe all we need is to overcome that hurdle of accessibility and get to know somebody who is a refugee or who's an illegal immigrant or who is, you know, a supporter of Joseph Biden or of Obama or of Trump? and sit down and understand. Well, dude, you voted twice for that guy, why, tell me? Help me understand.
Speaker 2:So, rather than stigmatizing people and excluding them because they're obese or because they have a certain job we don't like or they represent a religious group that we're afraid of or we disagree with, let's meet them first. Let's meet them before we make up our mind. That's. All we offer is a safe space for you to meet some of the most stigmatized people in our community.
Speaker 2:Victims are bullying, survivors of domestic abuse, survivors of suicide, people who have been left behind, because you know, people who live with bereavement, with grief, and who have faced, you know, losing somebody very dear to them, and it's something we will all encounter at some point in our life, but that we really don't like to talk about. So it's, you know. In a way, we call them courageous conversations, because it takes a little bit of courage to actually have a conversation about somebody's mental health or about the journey that their life has been on, or, you know, or losing somebody dear to you. So really it's. In my opinion, the human library is a safe place where we could potentially undjudge someone. Because in our library we make the assumption and I think it's fair that we all judge, we all make these calculations all the time. It's unavoidable And so we know the saying Vanessa, don't judge a book by its cover, but that's ridiculous. To say that is kind of ridiculous, because we cannot stop that. That's unavoidable.
Speaker 1:That's our human nature, isn't it? That's in our nature.
Speaker 2:It's in our coding. Imagine a human being as a piece of software. This is the way our software operates. This is our algorithm. We see something, we try to decode it. We hear something, we try to decode it And we have references. We heard about this before. Maybe we never encountered somebody with tattoos all over their face, but we saw it on a TV show when they were criminals and they were bikers and they were. And then that's our reference, and then we'll put people in little boxes And in a way, i sometimes like to explain that we all have a little built-in label printer and we print little labels really fast.
Speaker 2:We print them so fast we can barely you know, we barely reflect. It's just it's printed. Oh, i don't like, oh I like. So sometimes it's very healthy to revisit these judgments, and that is what we offer. We offer a safe framing where you can walk up to our librarian in your public library setting, you know, explore the list of literature that we have available, which will be very short form bipolar autism, adhd, homeless, unhoused, hiv, victim of bullying, victim of incest one of the greatest tapos that we carry. Like that's a conversation nobody wants to have, and so you can sort of be like, wow, this triggers me. Male chauvinist, oh my goodness, do they really exist? Let me get that. Or member of the NRA or something, so something where we can help qualify your judgment. Okay, i gotta say it.
Speaker 1:I gotta say it, say it, wow, you got me in the first sentence. Wow, that is amazing, amazing Yeah.
Speaker 2:In the time that we live in that is so polarized. Yes, i think it's even more needed now because you know what, vanessa? we've been doing this for 23 years.
Speaker 1:Tell me how did this start? What is your inspiration for the beginning of this? I mean, this is, this is something, like you just said, this takes For a person like myself to check out a book. That takes courage, you know, whether, whatever, that is something that you know, i've been fearful of those types of things, but what kind of inspiration did you have to create something like this? That's the ultimate.
Speaker 2:Well, i'm a little bit of an outsider myself, and so in my community I'm sort of mixed background. My father was born in Africa, my mother is Danish, so they can tell I'm not really. Well, i don't have much hair left, but you can tell from my eyebrows and my beard that I'm not a blonde person. And if you get really close here you can see that I have brown eyes. I don't have blue eyes, so I'm not very Scandinavian. I mean, as to where I grew up in Denmark and Copenhagen, and I often would get the question where are you from? And I'm like, dude, i'm born here. So I would, instead of give them my sort of country of origin, i would give them my borough, my neighborhood. I'd say I'm from the North Bridge area. Where are you from? I love it. Oh, they'd be like oh, i'm from the south side of the city, or I'm from outside of the city, i'm from the suburbs. I said I thought I could tell you had this accent.
Speaker 2:No, and so as a child I was also very curious about people. So I'm the type who would point fingers and pull my mom on her sleeve and say what's this guy And what's this person And why is this like that, and she would always be like you can't say that, you can't say that. She would hush me and she would stop me from asking openly, embarrassed in questions. But they were all curiosity based. Nothing evil there, just curious about people who are different. And in my early youth I sort of shied away from this because I made quick judgments myself And I cut myself off from a lot of opportunity by not having the chance to let these people into my life, simply by putting them in the wrong boxes.
Speaker 2:So navigating diversity is not always easy, especially if you don't have a lot of confidence or a reference. If you live in a sort of community where everybody is the same, when you come out of that community you're going to see a big diversity and you'll be a little bit anxious to start. Yes, i'm great, i'm like, oh, whoa, these people are from all over the world And it's like imagine living in upstate New York somewhere and then coming down to New York City or living in Arkansas and coming to Los Angeles And you'd be like, whoa, this is different And so adapting and relaxing, letting your shoulders get down, trusting in your fellow man is not always easy, and especially if you don't have a reference if all you heard was potentially even politicians talking bad about somebody. So I thought, hey, what would happen if we gave all the people that we judged a platform and opportunity to explain who they were, so that we may, we may, judge them again, but now on a more qualified basis, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Because of information.
Speaker 2:Exactly. Now. I have the information from you, i know why you're doing what you're doing And I completely disagree, but I understand, right. So bringing that back to the table and it's sort of a. It's a cornerstone of democracy, respecting our right to disagree with each other and be different. We don't all have to be the same. If we were all the same, it would be so incredibly dull and boring And we all be standing in line at Chick-fil-A, wouldn't we? And the line would be miles long because we're all the same. We're all looking for chicken on a Tuesday.
Speaker 1:True, so true, yep.
Speaker 2:So I thought, hey, let's try this. And then my friends at the organization where it works said, okay, that sounds like a really strange but a crazy idea. Wow, let's do it. And we did, and it turned out that it really you know it works.
Speaker 1:Well, this doesn't sound like the kind of library where they used to go. Shh be quiet. This sounds like my kind of library, where you talk a lot and ask a lot of questions. Who was your?
Speaker 2:first book Well, my first book, in the sense, the first book that I recruited for the human library. That was a boy I saw at a bus stop with his girlfriend. So the boy had a mohawk, he had piercings all over his face, He had tattoos And he was what I would call either a member of the punk community like sex pistols you know people who listen to punk music or he was body modified Today we'd call him body modified Right And the kid was about 16 years old, and so this was like the same day as I had the idea of walking down the street in Copenhagen And I see this kid across the street at the bus stop and I just crossed the street and I walked over to him and I said look, you don't know me. My name's Ronnie. I want to publish you as an open book. We're going to this festival this summer. Would you want to be an open book? And the guy said can you ask my mom? And I said sure, i'll call your mom. I love it. This is great. I called his mom and she said this sounds really cool. Does he want to go? I said yeah, david wants to go.
Speaker 2:David was my first book, but then I really started reaching out to people I knew, you know, like built a list of everybody. I knew who could be. You know, i knew somebody who had Muslim background. I knew somebody with Jewish background. I knew somebody who came from Kurdistan as a refugee. I knew somebody who ran away from war in Bosnia and in the former Republic of Yugoslavia So they were like refugees, internally displaced. And so I just made a list, and so did all my team members, and all of a sudden we had more than 75 different topics on our bookshelf, wow, wow. And even the Copenhagen police gave us four police officers said we'll give you one cop each day. So Thursday a policeman Friday. Another man came Saturday and Sunday. So for each day. We were open at the original event back then, which was a four day event at a festival right And this is a face to face event.
Speaker 1:This is face to face down, face to face with your book.
Speaker 2:That's what you do. I mean now you can also do it digitally, you can also available online, but until pre COVID we're mostly available in person, as we call it, which is face to face, and you could do one on one or you could share with your wife, with your partner, with your friend, with your children, and go sit somewhere and sort of meet somebody with an eating disorder and ask their advice. Meet somebody who overcame, you know, tremendous adversity And maybe you could be inspired from that. Or meet somebody where you thought that, hey, you thought you knew everything about Muslim people, but when you meet this Muslim you're going to learn something new, right and help qualify your opinion, maybe, maybe dismantle some of our fear or apprehension about somebody. I mean, imagine a community where everybody knew each other better And, even though we were not all the same, we respected each other's rights to be different. Would you feel safer in the community like that? Absolutely, yeah, absolutely So.
Speaker 2:It's quality of life and that's it. This is about quality of life. And for the people who are being understood, i mean, imagine your whole life being misunderstood because of that thing on your face or because of your hair color or your ethnic group or your religion. And here's the chance to explain what it means to you And for somebody to understand. It's so basic humanity here. It's like humanity 101. We all need to be understood.
Speaker 2:So when one of my colleagues said but Ronnie, why would somebody who had, you know, a disability and had a difficult time in their life because of that, why would they volunteer to come and talk about something so difficult, or about a mental health situation which is kind of taboo, or about their orientation They might be non binary or bisexual or gay or whatever I said. Look, imagine being the victim of hate crimes, people hating on you, you being afraid of other people's reactions when they find out who you are, or you've had to run away from situations. Imagine a chance of redemption to stand up and say this is who I am. Ask me anything, because we'll create a protected space. So it's been an incredible journey. We're more than 80 countries.
Speaker 1:I was so. 80 countries And what is the most frequently asked for a book.
Speaker 2:I think there is a large. There's a large ask worldwide for topics that help us better understand our mental health. Yeah, so if I was to identify something that the commonality amongst us. That's it. But so if you were in India, you might have other issues, secondary or third degree topics that are relevant for the community in India. Of course, when you're in Los Angeles it's a completely different conversation, But everywhere we go, mental health is a big ass, big ass.
Speaker 1:Wow, okay, all right, so you said it already. You've said the word taboo a couple of times and I have that written down. What's that taboo subject that I?
Speaker 2:think there are many, and I think from society, from community, community, they vary, but to give you some obesity.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:That's quite a taboo, and it's some of the books that we really lack. We have a lot of people representing Jews, muslims, trans, non binary mental health, obesity. They're not as common on our bookshelf because we shame them. Wow, they're sort of put to shame.
Speaker 1:So that's a different let me understand this, Ronnie. So that's a different kind of shame than I have body modifications, or I Well, that's more intolerance.
Speaker 2:That's more intolerance. Maybe you're disgusted by what the person did to themselves. Maybe you're intolerant. You're like I would never hire you because you've got all these piercing and tattoos on your face. So that's intolerance. Where obesity is people. I think some people are ashamed that they became that big, but I also think that they feel that other people are shaming them And so. but there are other taboos victims of bullying, victims of sexual assaults, victims of domestic violence and especially victims of incest. This is a topic very, very few people are comfortable talking about, but you do have books that are willing?
Speaker 1:Yes, we have books that are willing, and those books are checked out.
Speaker 2:They're in high demand. I bet okay.
Speaker 2:They're in high demand. We just don't have a tremendous amount of them to meet the demand, because once they're there, people really they're like wow, they don't have an opportunity to talk to somebody about this. And there's a lot more of it than we think. There's a lot more people that have been abused in their childhood than we would think of. So we're surprised that the we're surprised at how much draw or pull this thing has. So these are much needed conversation and they even have a cathartic effect for some.
Speaker 2:You know I'll tell you an anecdote that one married couple in their late 40s came to us and they'd driven like 35 miles Cause they heard on the radio we're hosting an event on the island where they lived, and so they drove to the session, which was bar, from where they lived, and said we really want to borrow this victim of incest. And when they borrowed her, they started the conversation by saying look, there's a very specific reason why we asked for you. And so they, and so our book said okay, what's that reason? Well, we recently found out that our daughter, who is now 27, was abused by the wife's little brother When she was only 13. So she had developed an eating disorder. She had attempted suicide, a lot of bad things that happened to her. From that moment on, she had deteriorated on the personal level and they didn't understand what happened. Only 14 years later that they understand what had happened to their child, and so the brother had admitted, the wife's little brother had admitted to what he'd done, and they came to ask our books advice.
Speaker 2:What can we do? We live in a small community. If this comes out, the stigma will be unbearable. Everybody will talk about it And our family will be forever stigmatized by this. And secondarily well, probably more important how do we handle this that we call the cops? And more important for them? they said we really need your advice. What can we do to support our child now? What can we do now? So who are we to judge what people wanna use the space for? I hope they use it to learn. I hope they use it to explore humanity and find answers to questions that aren't easily found or things we can't ask about at home.
Speaker 1:You know, I was gonna ask you what the goal is of the human library and you have just said it.
Speaker 2:But is ideally, it's creating understanding between fellow, our fellow human beings. The moment we identify with each other, the moment we understand each other and begin to accept each other, that is when all wars end. That's beautiful. That is when you're not gonna fight somebody that you know. in that way, you might get into a fight with somebody, but it's very difficult to hate on somebody that you have an understanding for. So, in a way, i like to look at it as if we're gluing people together. People that are disconnected from each other are being re-glued, reconnected in a framing that's really safe and they can walk out of there and they will not be canceled for not using the right language. They don't have to be afraid that they're not woke or this or that. At this place, all you have to be is courageous enough to follow your curiosity and ask the questions that are on your mind. Wow.
Speaker 1:I was wowed and moved And I wanna repeat the idea that Ronnie mentioned The moment we understand each other and begin to accept each other is the moment when all wars end. Wow, wow And amazingly it works for both the book and the reader, doesn't it? And I had read somewhere on your website as well that one of the requirements was is that both parties come back untathered, and I love that. That whole idea of don't bend the pages, don't rip the pages, don't mess up the cover, take care of the book.
Speaker 2:That's very true, vanessa. We ask very simple ground rules of engagement here. Bring the book back on time, just like at your regular library. Don't be late. Somebody else could be waiting for it. Librarians will help you. Treat the book with the same respect you wanna be treated. Don't take it home. Don't tear out pages, right, so literally caretaker for this person as you would wanna be caretaken for yourself, and then everything's gonna be fine.
Speaker 2:But be bold, go deep, ask very personal questions And if you ask something that's very much off topic, let's say you're volunteering to talk about personal grief, that happened and the loss you had. Maybe your dog got hit by a car God forbid. But let's say that happened And you're struck and you're hurt by this. You're in grief. Nobody understands. people are telling you Vanessa, get out of here, get out of here. What's wrong with you, right, right, but nobody can understand how much you love that dog.
Speaker 2:Even people that got a dog are on their second or third dog. This is your first dog. You just really you miss this dog and you're being sort of pushed to move on. Maybe it would be great for you to have a conversation with somebody who's also handled grief and figure out how do I handle this? How do I learn to live with what's happened to me And how do I get over it? in the sense that you're not gonna get over it, but you're gonna learn to live with it, you gotta live your life still And maybe in the future one day have another dog. So I think what's important here is that we allow ourselves to be human and to feel the things that we need to feel and talk to people about it, and that has a really cathartic effect and it's helpful, i have to tell you.
Speaker 1:I never thought of. so I understand all the other books that you've kind of described earlier, but the idea of grief they're actually talking to somebody about grief, oh yeah, and potentially helping them through that process. I lost my husband a few years ago and it has taken me many, many years Still. do you ever get over it? I don't know, but those types of things. I didn't realize that I could potentially be of help to someone else to get through something like that. You can.
Speaker 2:You can look next month, next month, in about a little bit less than a month.
Speaker 2:Yeah it'll be 10 years since my wife died in my arms. Okay, yeah, okay. She passed away suddenly in a balcony in Spain from a heart valve collapsed while we're on holiday. She was 37 years old. The children were sleeping. They didn't see them on time, okay, and people were like they don't know what to say Exactly. So they don't say anything, so it's like it didn't happen, which it didn't exist. It makes it a lot more painful.
Speaker 2:And at my workplace they said take all the time you need. Back then I wasn't working full-time for the human library, i was doing my job as a journalist, working creating documentary films, and actually I was working on a very big climate film about global heating and how we could save the climate. It's a movie called Carbon Crooks. It came out 10 years ago. It came out. It's a very nice film. But they said take as much time as you want. And after three weeks they started calling me, asking me when I was coming back.
Speaker 2:At that time we had not yet gotten the body back from Spain because of some legal measures. So they had not. We'd not received her. She was not. She had not been buried yet. And I said you know what? I want you to give my position to somebody else, because I cannot tell you when I'm coming back. I can't. Right now I'm not eating.
Speaker 2:I lost two pounds a week, 17 weeks straight. I came all the way down to 68 kilos, which is 140 pounds or less, and I was a pretty heavy-set guy at the time And it was terrible. I couldn't sleep, i couldn't eat. It was the most horrible time of my life. And nobody were able not very, very few. Nobody is a tough word. I don't want to judge everybody, but very, very few was able to relate and understand And you know who understood other people that had lost. That's where I found comfort. That's where I found consolation and understanding, and it's such a personal and I don't know You. Just, we must find a way forward. We must find a way to live with the person we lost and the love we had And find a way to comfort ourselves and enjoy life again and start eating again and be somebody in life. But you know what? The other people around us must be better at understanding how challenging and difficult this is, because they made it worse. So I ended up not going out for two years Because I didn't know.
Speaker 2:People didn't know what to say. They were like I have no words. I said what do you think I am? If you have no words, then how the hell do you think I feel? And then other people were like tell me if there's anything I can do to help. I said you know what, if I call you for help, you're just going to be uncomfortable. So you know, don't offer what you can't really give me. Because when I called they were like I'm sorry, i'm busy, i can't help right now, but it's right now I need to help. So it's like people are, they don't know at work, they don't know in your friend circles. They want to, they want to try, but they're just it's difficult for them to talk about also, So they say nothing. And it made it worse.
Speaker 2:And so we put I put grief on the bookshelf after my loss. I said I can't believe the stigma I faced. First of all, i lost number two. The whole social burden is now on me. I have to make people that I meet that know I lost. I have to make them feel comfortable. Yes, this is what I call on that And I say it's not my social obligation to make you feel comfortable with what happened to me. It cannot be. There's something really wrong with that. That's like I have to bring cake to the office when it's my birthday. It's my birthday, you should get me a cake. What the hell is wrong with you? I mean, this is the reverse way of being human beings. We forgot something very important there And that's hurtful to those of us who lost. So I put bereavement on the bookshelf, hoping to help educate. I have been published as an open book on bereavement.
Speaker 1:And it's checked out.
Speaker 2:Yes, oh, are you kidding? Indeed, it's checked out every time And it's very much appreciated. And this guy we've got a wonderful book in the UK who's helping us do this. James, we change a lot, but I found a couple of grief sisters that helped me on my road, and they were years ahead, vanessa. One had lost seven years before me, one had lost, sorry, four years before me, and so whenever I would encounter something, i could call them and say, hey, do you guys recognize this? And they were like, yeah, yeah, sure, relax, here's what you got to, here's what you can do, or this is natural, what you're feeling, this is what the process is. Yes, it's like they've watched the first four seasons of this. I didn't. I'm still on episode two, right One. So really helpful And we can help each other. But for people who never lost, it's very difficult to fathom, and so I wanted them to have access.
Speaker 2:And one of my readers, dan, in Washington DC. He will live with me forever, so he borrowed me at the international monetary fund, which is an incredible place in the heart of Washington. We're publishing our books there as part of a corporate event. We also do corporate events, and so one of our great books there had to step out because of a meeting. She got called to a meeting, a work meeting at the fund. It was one of the books that we had recruited at the fund And so she stayed only for the first two readings and for the.
Speaker 2:For the third reading I had to step in, and so I sat at this table and one of my readers, Dan. He said a lot of smart things at that time, but he asked me a question that I'll never forget. He said, ronnie, when you knew your wife had a bad heart, why did you go on vacation in Spain? Hmm, and I'm like, when he asked it, it hit me like a fist in the stomach And he told me maybe I'm not really ready to talk about this the way I felt I was ready. I thought I was ready. This was four years in, but but it hit me because, yeah, why the hell did we go to Spain when we knew she had a bad heart?
Speaker 1:But that was, that was part of that conversation then, wasn't it?
Speaker 2:It was, and so I did. I tried to answer the considerations and it was my 40th birthday and we got the gift. We had the trip as a gift for my parents And you know she'd had a heart condition since she was nine, so we were not expecting her to drop dead like that. Doctors underestimated the seriousness of her condition, which is just really a tragedy for me, for my kids, for her, for all of us, for the whole family. But it was it was. It stayed with me. And after that I got a letter from Dan said Ronnie, i've met a lot of people in my life, but you probably are one of the richest people I've ever met. And I looked at myself and I know my bank account is not full. So I understood that there's different riches out there. And it's understanding your fellow man Yeah, being able to understand or be understood. What is more rewarding than being understood?
Speaker 1:Very little. It's like it's heard, isn't it? It's like being heard, yes, and seen for who you are.
Speaker 2:Exactly, very Okay. So we got to bring the mood up.
Speaker 1:And we got to bring the balance Right on the edge here. This is good, So okay. So this is to my next question then How do you become a book? Maybe I want to.
Speaker 2:You could volunteer through our website. You could fill in an application, a motivated application that says you know what's your experience, what kind of issues or lived experiences do you think could be a value to your readers, what kind of biases or stigma prejudice have you faced that you can help us understand? And so, in this sense, you volunteer through the website. We then screen your application, invite you to an orientation. If you're still motivated, you get onto this let's call it a book portal, where you train to be a book. You're going to watch some tutorials. That explains the methodology.
Speaker 2:There are some exercises you're going to do to identify your content And then you're going to come to a reading exam, just like high school. You come to the exam And then we're going to publish you. After that, we'll take you onto our bookshelf and we'll invite you to come out to events at public libraries and high schools and colleges and campus and universities and workplaces, even festivals. And you know, some of our books get to go great places because they're near something that's wonderful, what's happening, and others are publishing more virtually because they're at a distance.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i was going to ask you So. so here I live in the Northern California, the Bay Area. We've got a book depot in the Bay Area. I was going to ask because I can't find it, but I didn't look well enough. So you mean a book depot where you can physically go as a book or virtually?
Speaker 2:Both. We have a book depot which is a book collection for the Bay Area. Okay, they were at eBay just this earlier this week. Oh, okay, Yeah, okay, some of the books went to eBay to publish for a small group of readers at eBay in San Jose this week A private event And soon, yeah, soon there's an event soon.
Speaker 2:There's an event coming up in the public space, but there are also events coming up with a. Is it Kimpton hotels? So Kimpton hotel has their headquarters in San Francisco? Okay, and so we're going to go and do something for the leadership of Kimpton hotel. I don't have the date right now. I think it got pushed back, but it was supposed to be May, so now it might be June or July, but I know we're going to the headquarters of Kimpton. But basically you're part of a community group there.
Speaker 2:It starts with getting you added into the book depot Once you're trained as a book and you're vetted and you've signed your volunteering agreement and your promise not to disclose different stuff mostly what you learn from readers, which is right. Right, it's a confidential conversation, right, we don't want you outing readers or trying to get somebody canceled, and we don't want them outing you either. We want you to be able to have a confidential conversation about important issues, right? So look at the paperwork out of the way. We add you to the book depot And once you're in there, you're going to get different invitations. You're going to get invitations to join us online, to be published on zoom. You will going to get an invitation to join our software where you can publish on demand, which means let's say that you have Let's, let's just I know you're not anymore, but let's say that you were a soccer mom And so you had soccer and stuff.
Speaker 2:You need to go to all week with your kids, which are now probably quite big kids. They go on their own, but if you were still having small kids, then you have to take these. Oh, you got that Starbucks bin there, cup.
Speaker 1:I do, and it's a California one.
Speaker 2:I got a New York and Columbia and Nashville I collect those, i do too, but okay, i love them. Okay, we'll Starbucks aside, but okay. So what you would get is you would get different publishing opportunities offered to you and then you can sort of choose what's with your calendar. When could you be available? There's, you know, mountain View Public Library. There's what's it called Foothill College.
Speaker 1:Hi for your area.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's it. So there are different partners that we work with that invite us to come out and publish, and so we'll post those in the book depot and say, hey, who could be available to come with us to Foothill College on this? This is the date, got it, and then, if it suits you, you join. If it doesn't suit you, you can join. And then on the software which is the greatest thing that we've done recently is you could actually log on and say, hey, i got soccer Tuesday, thursday, i'm not doing anything Wednesday, i'm going to be available Wednesday, and so Wednesday you put yourself on the software and you say, wednesday, at 4pm East Pacific time, i could be published and my topic will be breamant. And so anybody who wants to talk about this can book me or join my session, and if at least two readers joined the session, it's on one on one.
Speaker 2:We don't do in the virtual space, because if somebody is not polite, we don't have a witness there. Yeah, okay, we don't want to leave you for psychological safety, and it's not that it happens, right? Maybe that's why it doesn't happen for psychological safety, as there are no librarians in the room, we want you to have at least two readers with you Maximum five, right Got it And so our readers in the community will sign up to learn about this and they'll join Wednesday at 4pm And so that will be a 30 minute session where they get to ask you a bunch of questions and learn from you and better understand people with your story and background and experience And so and then you can come back next Wednesday and do it all over again, or do it every other Wednesday, or do it one Wednesday a month, depending on how much time you have.
Speaker 1:So on the website you're in over 80 countries. But on the website can I go in and say I want to check out a book from Singapore. You know it's available.
Speaker 2:No, no, that's not possible. I'm sorry You can't do that. Is that for?
Speaker 1:real.
Speaker 2:What you can do is you can't do that, but if you follow us, if you follow us on social media, for example on Facebook, we will post public online events that are hosted every other Sunday. Oh, okay, so every other Sunday there is a big, open Zoom session where people from 20 countries will join and books from many different countries will be on low. There are also separate Spanish events going on where the working language is Spanish, right, so you can join them on Zoom if you're a Spanish speaker, and then you'd get books from Peru, from Spain, from Colombia, from you know you'd get. From Mexico, you get different books. In fact, this week we have an event in Mexico in person. So, but but you can't log on. You can't go on the website and say I want somebody from Bangladesh and then we'll get you somebody from Bangladesh.
Speaker 1:On it.
Speaker 2:And it's not an option yet. Maybe in the future Okay, maybe in the future the software will support this that you could log on and you could say Bangladesh, and then books that are from Bangladesh will be listed. But we're not really. I mean, unless it's part of the topic, right, we're not letting you sort of zoom in. You could get a transgender from the United Kingdom, canada, right, you know, as long as they're English speaking, from anywhere and you won't know until they come into the room and they tell you where they're from, where they're actually from.
Speaker 1:Got it. Okay, got it. So I understand how the system works. And well, i want all the reader or listeners to understand and the readers to understand how the works.
Speaker 2:Yes, and it's a project that's constantly evolving where, as we get more and more funds, we continue to develop and we improve and we make you know. Even in the software, since we launched in August, we've made a lot of improvements to the software. It turns out software is never really finished. I didn't understand that until we started building some and looking at the cost, but but it's fun, it's fun, it's great fun.
Speaker 1:Is the human library a big organization.
Speaker 2:I wouldn't call it. I mean big and rich, tremendous in impact. Yes, we're only around 30 people on staff, okay, okay, but then we're thousands of volunteers around the world, right, so we're big. How? how big in our bank account? No, we're not big, because you remember something, vanessa? What is a library? It's free.
Speaker 1:Yes, Yes, yeah, i love that Yes.
Speaker 2:Most people will not come in expecting to pay to be there. We love if they can support us, that's fine. Buy a t-shirt or make a donation, but there is no ask, there's no pay wall here. So we don't have a lot of money. That's the God. Honest truth is we have very little money. But whatever money we have we use to further develop And I think 30 people on staff for an organization that doesn't charge is pretty, damn good Pretty tremendous.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's pretty tremendous because we do charge some. We don't charge the public readers, we don't charge our students that come in from colleges or high schools, but we charge companies, corporate, yes. So when corporate America reaches out, like Pfizer or Harley Davidson or UGI Corporation or Moscow or recently eBay, then of course we charge them sort of a corporate rate. They have a budget for it. They can afford it Right. This is very impactful training for them.
Speaker 2:And it's impactful What they give impacts the rest of the world Exactly, and so we're sort of a hey that's why they call me Ronnie from the hood, cause I'm like a Robin Hood I'll take from the rich and I'll put it back into the community. And you know, and I still live in the most diverse and I wouldn't say impoverished neighborhood of my country, but it is a, it is a very diverse neighborhood here. So I didn't move up to the, to the hills or anything. I stayed where I was from and I'm staying here. It's who I am. I'm not moving around and I don't have a big salary. Instead, i rather employ more people to make us stronger. So, basically, i drive a I don't want to say it's a piece of old car, but it is an old car and I live in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a neighborhood where it's not expensive, to where the rent isn't high and stuff. So, yeah, that's awesome, give me opportunity. Yeah, yes.
Speaker 2:So I I'd say we are a big organization, looking at impact, looking at global reach and looking at working with a hundred plus of the biggest companies in the world. We're impacting the leadership of Intel, verizon, pfizer We worked recently with. We are in partnership with Toronto Dominion Bank. Soon we'll be training the leadership of Kimpton hotels. Behind Kimpton hotels, which is 86 hotels around the world, is the international hotel group, which is thousands of hotels around the world, which is Holiday Inn and all these you know hotel chains. So we are definitely out of. Compared to size, we're very significant in impact. Wow, and we're right now negotiating with partners in Los Angeles TV production company about a development deal to put a TV show on to become you know you mentioned early on in the podcast I don't know if that's going to be early on you mentioned in the that we're not.
Speaker 2:You didn't know about us, or a lot of people that you spoke to didn't know about us, and I got to tell you two things about that. That's important. Why are we a secret organization? Well, one, if everybody knew about us at the same time, we would suffocate. Good point We do not have enough books to accommodate a global, wide interest at the same time. We don't. We're not ready for it yet. We will be ready one day, but until that day, keep it quiet.
Speaker 2:No, I'm not going to No, but seriously, we got to keep it a little bit under wraps because if everybody was coming at the same time we couldn't manage it. A lot of people will be disappointed. You don't want to disappoint people. They come in and there's nothing. There's no product on the shelf because it's all ripped away by somebody else who was there before you. So we can't do that.
Speaker 2:The second part is we obviously don't have money for marketing, so we rely entirely on word of mouth. But our word of mouth is incredible. We have over 50,000 followers on Instagram. We have over 50,000 followers on Facebook. We've got even on LinkedIn almost 6,000 people following us. So there's a great interest for what we're doing. But it's growing organic, not because we put marketing in there And stuff goes viral all the time. Last week we had something go viral and when that happens, we get 200 emails in two days. Now how many people does it take to answer 200 emails? It takes people. Yeah, okay, yeah. So we got to be careful. That's why we took your podcast and not the one with 500,000 listeners. Thank you, we can have almost. It's not a private conversation, but it's a good conversation that reaches a target group which we can handle If there's interest there, we can handle it, and that's important for us.
Speaker 1:I like it. I like it, thank you. Thank you, this has been emotional, fascinating. I'm very touched. I'm very moved by this whole idea of it. I like the idea because I think it's going to bring the world together For the people who hate Vanessa And we certainly need this, though, don't we? For the people who hate.
Speaker 2:We probably can't change their minds But for all the people in between, their hearts are not full of hate, but they're concerned, they're nervous, they're afraid. There was a shooter in somewhere who was trans. We have to be afraid of people who are trans. There was somebody with Muslim background who was part of 9-11 and who did something crazy. Who have to be afraid of Muslim people. It's for all those people who are concerned. They can come down and they can get another perspective And I'm hoping for more quality of life for all of us, more security, more safety, more feeling connected to our community. What would be greater than walking out of your house or your apartment building or something, and knowing people and people knowing you and knowing there's nothing to be afraid of? So that is high quality of life that cannot be bought for money, because money will get you into a gated community, it'll get you a tall wall, it'll get you security or whatever, and you know if the worry about your kids getting kidnapped or something.
Speaker 1:It'll feed your fear.
Speaker 2:That's it. Yeah, you're still living in fear. Yeah, so what you're really living, truly living, is living with the people, even the ones who are different from you, but learning to accept their right to be different and teaching them to accept your right to be different from them. That is when we live in peace. So I'm not religious in that sense. I'm not lobbying a certain political. I don't support anybody. I support mankind. I support everybody except the haters. So people who are hating I can't support that.
Speaker 2:Intolerance is something there is my limitation, and so that is where we're limited at the library. So if somebody wants to use us as a platform to spew, you know, vile stuff about others, then you're not going to be a book. That's why we train and vet. We try to make sure you don't have a big chip on your shoulder. You're not coming in for revenge or to to to gush out your intolerance. But within each and every one of us, even our books, we have lessons to learn about our unconscious bias, because we all judge, you and me also. Yes, humanity isn't it? Yes, so this is just. This is an opportunity, and it's free. All it takes from you is a little bit of courage, and I want you to. I want to thank you for inviting me to be part of this and reaching your audience, and maybe some of them will come and be brave and unjust someone with us, either online or in person.
Speaker 2:Follow our social media to to stay updated on on events. We keep posting where the events are taking place and we're spreading. It takes time because we're doing quality work, but we're spreading. We're already in Chicago, we're in Indiana, we're in New York, we're in California, we're in Los Angeles, we're in the Bay Area, but we're spreading more and more to more and more places. Next stop, we're going to build in Boston And today I had a big call with somebody who wants to help us build in Florida, in West Palm Beach.
Speaker 2:So before you know it, we'll be in a neighborhood near you and you'll have a learning opportunity. And if you can't wait, join us online. It's free.
Speaker 1:Thank you, ronnie. Hey, everybody, go to the website, check it out humanlaboratoryorg. I'll have all the connections on our website and go check out the books, see how you can unjudge someone. Yeah, thank you, vanessa. Come be a book. I think this might be. I think I might just do that, but I'm definitely going to go check out some books, thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you, wow, that was a great conversation. I love this idea And I found the human library in my search for my own lost story, a story about my father who was in a concentration camp in the Netherlands during World War II.
Speaker 1:He would never speak of his experience and his story went with him when he passed. I recognize that the human library is not a traditional library where I perhaps could have found information on my father's journey, but I wish I'd heard his story so I could better understand him, and I think this is the key understanding one another, not judging a book by its cover, but actually looking inside into our humanity. As Ronnie said, it's difficult to hate someone once you know them. Thanks again for listening. You guys, take care.