Two Chicks and a Hoe
We’re gonna dig deep into some really amazing people and topics — cultivating ideas about nature, the environment and conservation — in your backyard and globally. We want to share stories with you where the only intention may be for you to say,“Wow, I didn’t know that!”…and now that you do, maybe you might think about your relationship with it differently, share the information with a friend or get involved.
Two Chicks and a Hoe
Condor Air: Now Boarding for the Greatest Comeback Ever – The California Condor
What does it take to bring a species back from the brink of extinction? Join Vanessa from "Two Chicks and a Hoe" as she welcomes Monica Fox, a dedicated veterinary technician at the Oakland Zoo, to share the incredible comeback story of the California condor. Discover the awe-inspiring journey of North America's largest bird, whose wings span an impressive 9 to 10 feet, and learn about the unique features that help this majestic creature thrive.
From the desperate days of the 1980s, when the condor population plummeted to just 22 birds, to the groundbreaking conservation efforts that have helped their numbers rebound, Monica provides a riveting account of the challenges and triumphs in the battle against extinction. Hear about the pivotal role of captive breeding programs, the ongoing fight against lead poisoning, and the innovative solutions like copper bullets that are making a difference. It's a testament to what can be achieved through collaboration and dedication.
In this episode, we celebrate significant milestones, such as the first wild-hatched condor chick since the population crisis, and highlight the vital ongoing efforts that ensure the survival of this iconic species. Whether you're a wildlife enthusiast eager to spot these magnificent birds in their natural habitat or someone interested in the broader implications of conservation work, Monica's insights will inspire and inform. Tune in to understand the power of teamwork in conservation and how you can contribute to the noble cause of preserving the California condor.
California Condor Picture donated for use by: Tim Huntington
Check out his site: webnectar.com
US Fish and Wildlife Service
California Department of Fish & Wildlife
Los Angeles Zoo
San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance
Oakland Zoo
Ventana Wildlife Society
Peregrine Fund
Yurok Tribe
Things that make you say "Wow"!
For more episodes and additional information visit the Two Chicks and a Hoe website and our Facebook page.
Big thanks to our Producer, Casey Kennedy.
Imagine a bird with a wingspan of 9 to 10 feet. Think about that for a second. That's the height of a standard basketball hoop or a small sailboat. So a bird, a hardy species weighing up to 25 pounds, living up to 60 plus years, is a scavenger feeding primarily on carrion or dead animals, a bird species that survived mass extinctions of the last ice age, yet the entire population was reduced to 22 individuals by the 1980s. A cherished icon of the West, the prehistoric looking California condor remains one of the world's most endangered species. North America's largest bird narrowly escaped extinction in the mid-1980s when the last 22 wild California condors became star participants in a captive breeding program to keep them from disappearing from the face of the earth.
Speaker 1:I think the thing that has fascinated me the most about the California condor and its story has been the amazing collaboration amongst conservation organizations to save this bird from extinction Zoos such as the Los Angeles Zoo in San Diego, us Fish and Wildlife, california Department of Fish and Game and several longstanding nonprofit organizations. They have all worked together since the 1980s to save this animal from extinction. That's pretty amazing to me. Hi everyone, it's Vanessa from Two Chicks and a Hoe, the podcast that brings you amazing people doing great things in our world, and I'm so excited to share with you a conversation that I've been wanting to have for many years with yet another amazing person. I'm so excited.
Speaker 1:Today's guest is Monica Fox, who is a veterinary technician at the Oakland Zoo in Northern California, one of the zoos that is involved in the preservation of the California condor. Monica is also a team member of the California Condor Recovery Program, so we're going to chat today about this amazing bird. How did it almost disappear from existence? Who's involved in the efforts to help save it? And you know this great collaboration amongst all these organizations. Hi, monica, thank you so much for being here today.
Speaker 2:Hi Vanessa. Thank you for having me. I'm very excited to be here and to talk about one of my favorite animals.
Speaker 1:I love it, I love it. So I can't imagine you saying that, working at the Oakland Zoo, which is such an awesome place, an awesome zoo with so many species, and here you are saying it's one of your most favorite animals.
Speaker 2:Well, oakland Zoo is how I even got to become familiar with the condor. I'm not from California originally and I didn't know that much about him. Aren't you a cheesehead? Yes, in Wisconsin. Him. Aren't you a cheese head? Yes, in Wisconsin. So Oakland Zoo really opened my eyes to the condor and I just got hooked when I heard their story and I feel so privileged and honored to be part of the recovery program for them because they're just an amazing bird.
Speaker 1:So awesome. So let's talk about the bird, Okay. So in my introduction I mentioned that they have a nine to 10 foot wingspan. Is that the largest? Is that the largest?
Speaker 2:bird. I believe it's the largest land bird in North America but I think in other continents there's bigger birds, but the Andean condor is not bigger, is it? I don't think so. I think so, I can't remember.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's fine, there's so many, so, but yes, so all right. So let's talk about the bird. It's huge, it is huge.
Speaker 2:Is it a vulture? It's a vulture meaning it scavenges for its food, meaning it eats dead things for all of its meals, dead things to for all of its meals.
Speaker 1:So everybody, when they think of vultures, they think oh gross, you know, because they stick their head inside and you know, and they get it all. They get nasty. But tell me that because they're not dirty birds.
Speaker 2:They're not. They're very fastidious about cleaning themselves, and one of their trademark features is their bald head, and that is on purpose, because when they do stick their head into carcasses to get the good stuff, then their head doesn't get covered with all of the intestines of whatever they're eating, and so it does help them stay clean.
Speaker 1:So we always say bald is beautiful. That is a great gross visual at the same time. But yes, I see that that makes sense and I heard too that them being bald, that after they do their business inside a carcass, that the sun kind of beats it off or burns it off, so to speak.
Speaker 2:Okay, I haven't heard that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's what I heard about turkey vultures, so I'm assuming that's across the board for vultures as well, since none of them really have any feathers on their head, right?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah they also will jump into a pool of water and just kind of clean themselves off too. So yeah, they like being clean, even though they get dirty nice, they get real dirty.
Speaker 1:So I heard too that, or I read. I should say that they are sexually monomorphic Meaning.
Speaker 2:Meaning you cannot tell the gender of the bird by just looking at them.
Speaker 1:Isn't that kind of, I guess, isn't that most for a lot of birds, isn't it? I was just thinking when I said that, think ostriches, you could see the differences but I think about eclectus parrots.
Speaker 2:They're sexually dimorphic, so I think it just varies among species okay.
Speaker 1:So, particularly though in the california condor, it's hard to tell the difference, yes, between the males and the females yes, got, got it. All right. So what is what their historical range? So now we're talking. You know we're very focused in here on California and their current range. But what was their historical range at one point?
Speaker 2:Their historical range was from California to Florida, western Canada and.
Speaker 1:Northern Mexico. Wow Okay, so we've lost everything, I guess, going towards the East Coast.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes Okay.
Speaker 1:Okay, all right. So the other great visual that you see on them now is this I think it's a red tag, isn't it? It's a wing tag, and it varies in color. Oh, okay. But yeah some of them are red. Okay, yeah, and that's the tag. That's their number, tag, right, it's their identifier.
Speaker 2:Identifier. Yeah, most condors also have microchips in them. So when they're in hand they can be scanned the microchips in them. So when they're in hand they can be scanned. The microchip can be scanned. But the wing tags are a visual easy to spot from the ground identifier and each flock throughout California they have different kind of ways of using the wing tag. So the central flock uses color coding of the wing tags that pairs also with the numbers on the wing tag. So one the central flock uses color coding of the wing tags that pairs also with the numbers on the wing tag. But up at the Yurok tribe flock in Northern California they have one color but different numbers on the wing tag. So they all have wing tags but they each site does it a little bit differently. Okay, how they distinguish what the tag actually means, Okay.
Speaker 1:But they all have tags.
Speaker 2:They all have tags and that equates to their stud book number.
Speaker 1:Okay, wait a minute, we'll back up here. Stud book number. Tell us what the stud book is.
Speaker 2:So the stud book is yes?
Speaker 2:we finally get to talk about the stud book, the species survival plan, and there's a lot of species involved in it and a lot of species that are at zoos involved in it, excuse me and they all get assigned a number and that's just a way to help us keep track. It also helps with us knowing, for breeding purposes, who should go with who, helps with us knowing for breeding purposes who should go with who. It's just an easy way to keep track of all of the individuals, but then also an easy way to identify them among the multiple organizations that work with condors. We just call them by their stud book numbers and some organizations will name the birds, some don't, so the stud book number is a consistent way to identify the birds.
Speaker 1:I always called it the like tinder of the animal world, the stud book, you know. So, yes, this is my number. So cool, Thank you, Awesome. So the numbers, let's talk about the. I mean I, you know, nowhere in my research for this conversation actually did I find that this was, you know, at one point, a bird that had millions, that kind of thing. I never actually saw any true numbers or figures associated with that. Of course, I saw a lot of numbers associated with what happened in the 80s, so let's talk about that. Monica, what did we get to here? You know?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, the numbers were hard to track. I think there was a lot of them, so it was hard to count them all. But also because they have such wide ranges where they fly it was hard to track them all down and really at that point there wasn't a need to count them and to see how many there were, point.
Speaker 2:There wasn't a need to count them right and to see how many there were there were, they said. One thing that I read was that it wasn't possible to track their population until the 80s um, and that was done by a newly developed photographic method, um, which just essentially was a way that they photographed the area and then counted the birds and moved to another area, counted the birds, and so tracking wasn't done, and but it also wasn't necessary.
Speaker 2:So I agree, we don't have numbers to know how many there were, way back in the day not until the eighties and people started to notice that the population had diminished, that they started to track the population.
Speaker 1:So the California condor was the first species to be listed under the Endangered Species Act in 1967. The very first, so the iconic species for that, unfortunately. Yes, very first. So the iconic species for that, unfortunately, but we came down to, came down to 22 birds, didn't it?
Speaker 2:Yes, in 1982, there was only 22 remaining. So they knew at that point something had to be done, otherwise they would all disappear. So yeah, it was down to 22. What?
Speaker 1:happened. What did they do?
Speaker 2:So over the next five years from that point, they trapped them all to All of them.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all of them. To get them into captivity, to start a captive breeding program, because they knew if they didn't do that, the species would go extinct.
Speaker 1:So I get it. So the idea that to take all of them from the wild, yeah, and again, it's to protect them and to see if they could do some breeding in in, in captivity, to see if they could then build this population right. So what so? The more I read to the, it seems to me like the, the, the foundation for their demise, has been lead poisoning correct?
Speaker 2:yeah, and again, that wasn't scientific data at that point, and right there were. I think there were multiple reasons, but the assumption is that lead was the number one killer of the condors and, honestly, that's still the number one killer of condors, and I think, as they learned, that lead was the problem, that's what made them think in hindsight about that was the problem back then too.
Speaker 2:So they just noticed that it was a problem, so they presumed that that was the problem from back in the day, when they had no idea why they were dying off.
Speaker 1:So why lead? So what does lead do and where does it come from?
Speaker 2:Well, the primary reason that they get exposed to lead is because they're scavengers, as we discussed, meaning they eat dead things, and so it could be. They eat a squirrel that somebody shot with a lead bullet and left there, and then so they eat the squirrel which has the lead, and it takes a tiny, tiny fragment of lead to poison a bird, and so that could it could be as simple as somebody just shooting a dead squirrel and leaving it there, and then the bird comes and eats that there, and then the bird comes and eats that. It could be, uh, somebody shooting a deer and pulling, you know, gutting it in the field and leaving the guts and taking the deer, but then the condors will come eat the gut pile again getting exposed to lead, and it just takes a little bit is what you're saying I mean millimeters big really.
Speaker 2:I've seen that we've pulled them out of condors and I've measured them and sent them off to researchers and it's a shockingly small fragment that causes a big problem for them and then it gets in their bloodstream and then it gets into their organs and their bones and then we could get it we can with the treatment we do. We can get it out of their bloodstream but then re is still in their bones and their organs. So it's kind of a constant problem and the birds have somehow managed to live with a shockingly high level of lead in their blood stream. Cause what does it do to them? It causes a lot of different problems, but we often see neurologic problems where they just seem kind of loopy and unsteady. It causes anorexia, where they don't want to eat.
Speaker 2:It causes problems with their digestive tract and eventually it just will affect so many organs that it just kills them.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow.
Speaker 2:Okay, so clearly quite a problem, very big problem with condors.
Speaker 1:Yes, so clearly quite a problem, very big problem, with condors. Yes, so are they still using lead ammunition? And I ask that because in my reading I read that they had passed several bills in California, or were working on it at a certain point, to get rid of or to outlaw the use of lead ammunition in certain hunting areas, which I didn't think was broad enough, but okay. And then years later they added that to basically say no more lead ammunition. Is that correct?
Speaker 2:Yes, that's correct. I can't remember it was fairly recent that that happened. I can't remember it was fairly recent that that happened. I can't remember the exact year, but yeah, it started out with certain areas and then it became the whole state of California. And one message I do want to get across is that the Condor Recovery Program and all the members, we are not anti-hunting. We support hunters and ranchers.
Speaker 2:We want to find a way to work with them to save this species and that's why some of the institutions and organizations involved in the Condor Recovery Program they put a lot of time and effort and resources into non-led outreach for the public.
Speaker 2:And they provide copper bullets to ranchers and people that want them, just as a way to work together, because we don't want to take away the hunting for the people that love to do it right. Um, but it is a problem for all animals. It's not just condors. It just there are certain things about condors that they just it affects their population more significantly, but it, you know, affects bald eagles and golden eagles and turkey vultures. So it's just so. If we can help with that problem, it will help many species. But since the california condors are so affected by it and there's so few of them, right, their numbers are so low yeah, we really want to get the effort, put the effort in to try to save them.
Speaker 1:I love it. I love it again. That's a different type of collaboration amongst you know, not outside, outside of the california kind of program and all these wonderful organizations which we'll talk about in a sec, but, um, I love the idea of working with hunters you know, it's that is true conservation in my book.
Speaker 1:the idea of everybody is a player in it. It's that is true conservation in my book the idea of everybody is a player in it. Let's work all together, because conservation is not just about the bird. It's about the bird and the environment and the people and everybody that's affected by it has to make the pie complete. So, yes, great, awesome.
Speaker 2:As of 2022, we have 561 total condors 347 are in the wild and 214 are in captivity. So that's it's, overall, still a shockingly low number if you think about it. If there was only 561 people left on the planet, yes, but considering where it started, it's significant and it's going in the right direction for sure.
Speaker 1:Okay, so that's, that is, from 22 birds right In the 80s, correct? Yes, all the way up to 561. Wow, wow, that is, that's an amazing, that's amazing success. I know that they're not out of the woods, so to speak, and I'm sure they're still listed as an endangered species as well, but that is big success. So tell me then, how did so? They brought all these birds in, think Los Angeles Zoo, san Diego Zoo, were big players in the process, two of the first zoos right in Southern California to be involved and they took eggs. Did they take eggs from the wild or at that point, where the birds already the birds were already in.
Speaker 2:The birds were in captivity, and so any eggs at that point were laid in captivity. Got it, got it.
Speaker 1:So then, all those animals stayed in captivity and tried to build up this population again.
Speaker 2:Got it? Yes, yes, it wasn't. Until what year was it? In 1992, they reintroduced captive, bred condors into the wild.
Speaker 1:All right, so go back a few years, so in 82. They took the last 22 in. So I'm trying to get the. I want the listeners to understand this timeline Right, because this isn't. I mean, it sounds like a long time ago but it's not. It's not like high school years, but in 82, the last 22 animals came in from the wild. They were captured and brought in and that was to save them from extinction. Five years later all the remaining wild condors were in captivity. That was in April of 1987. The last wild condor was captured and brought in. So then nobody was out in the wild anymore. They were at these two facilities in Southern California Los Angeles Zoo and San Diego Zoo and it started from there. And I know you and I had mentioned the California Condor Program, recovery program, which started in the late 70s and I know that you are a member, a team member of it, as well as the Oakland Zoo, and this program is put together, isn't it just? It's an international multi effort to save this bird from total extinction.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's pretty amazing to see all of the organizations and institutions work together for this. I remember every year there's a condor field meeting, which is a meeting where all the field biologists and researchers and everybody involved comes together and talks about latest research and populations and goals and all of that. And I went to my first one in 2014 at the Santa Barbara Zoo and I just remember being shocked at the amount of people just in one room together all with the same goal, and it was so inspiring to me and it just blew my mind and it really gave me a really good impact about how much people care about this species.
Speaker 1:That's, I think, monica, we go back to. One of my original statements was the idea that all these organizations have come together to save this bird, and it's just kind of mind-blowing to me, even back whenever, the 70s, the 80s, to today, that this is still happening, that it just gives me such hope, such hope not just for this particular species, but for lots of stuff. I want to. I think it's important. I want to say the names of the organizations because I want our listeners to understand the depth of who's involved here. So we have the Peregrine Fund, the Ventana Wildlife Society, the National Park Service, the San Diego Zoo, the Los Angeles Zoo, oregon Zoo, santa Barbara Zoo, oakland Zoo, chapultepec Zoo in Mexico, arizona Game and Fish Department, the California Department of Fish and Wildlife, the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources, the Bureau of Land Management, us Forest Service, the Federal Government of Mexico, the Yurok Tribe and many other NGOs that we could just keep talking, which is a really good sign that look, all these wonderful organizations and all the passion behind this to save this bird. That's really fantastic.
Speaker 1:And and as Monica and I were talking as well, you know, about stud books and stuff like that, I, I, I want listeners to understand. I know, Monica and I feel very passionate about this that you can see here how many zoos did I list off? Zoos sometimes get really get a bad rap. But I think what people don't understand and what they're not seeing when they walk through the gates is the tremendous amount of conservation work that's being done behind the scenes. And that's why I feel it's so important to get this message out, because if it wasn't for the zoos, this bird wouldn't be around anymore. And maybe that's a very broad statement on my part, because I know there's all these other great organizations, but it really was those two zoos that started that, you know, getting them in and taking care of them. So, yeah, my hat's off.
Speaker 2:That's great, and I think zoos nowadays we don't just have animals for people to come look at.
Speaker 2:We have that because that's what inspires future animal lovers and the people that will take care of the species.
Speaker 2:But zoos do conservation work and we at Oakland zoo do a lot of it, and that's one thing that I love about Oakland Zoo. It makes me so proud to work there, and the California condors are not the only local species that we work to save, so it's a big part of what we do, but it's not the only one. So I'm thankful to work at a place like that and it makes me proud and it is. I mean, I think that the effort that I see with this particular species is it gives me chills every time I think about it, because I just love it and I just love the species and I think all of these people working together is amazing. And you know, back when they had to pull the last 22 birds and that wasn't an easy decision and some people were against it back then and I can't help but understand why. There's two sides to every story and taking an animal out of its wild habitat to start do captive breeding Some people thought, well, maybe it's just time for them to go.
Speaker 1:And you know, I was going to ask you about that too, the whole idea of, of this tremendous effort, and I can't imagine the funds that have gone towards this. And you're right, I'm sure some people would say, well, why not? You know, put it towards. You know a species that has more population, you know that kind of thing. It's equally not equally, but endangered, but has more for genetic purposes. You know, I think about that, but then I think how can we let this animal disappear as well?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a beautiful bird and it's it's so hard because, as animal lovers, every animal is important it doesn't matter if it's a little centipede or it's a big elephant, we they're all important.
Speaker 2:So it is hard to kind of say, okay, this one gets this many resources right doesn't, and some people don't see the beauty of condors, and that's okay, they don't have to. But there is a very large group of people and a large group of organizations and institutions that do see the condors are worth fighting for and bringing them back to have stable populations.
Speaker 1:Serves really as a true iconic species of conservation, kind of like what the bald eagle was, and look where that came, look where that went, how awesome. That's such an awesome success story. Yes, definitely, bald is beautiful Bald is beautiful. Woo-hoo, Okay, so you mentioned that reintroduction of the species started in 1992. Yes, Okay. So now are they still hatching eggs in captivity and then releasing these I guess juveniles or adult birds into the?
Speaker 2:wild? Yes, they are, and with all the population studies that go on with condors, it's known that if we were to stop the captive breeding, the population would just decline again. So there, although a lot of birds are being the eggs are being laid and birds are being hatched in the wild, which is exactly what we want because of the threats to the birds in the wild. If the constant influx that is being done with the captive bred birds going into the wild is what is sustaining the population, so if we stopped the captive breeding and stopped releasing captive bred birds into the wild, the population would just go back down.
Speaker 1:And and that's because of the the threats that brought them to that point are still there. But then actually there's more now isn't there.
Speaker 2:There's always been several, and I know we talked about lead, which is the biggest, so wait a minute though Lead ammunition has now been outlawed Right, but people still have. You know, down in the garage they have ammo from 10 years ago and, to be honest, the copper ammunition that is what is hoped to be the alternative is expensive and it's harder to get and then, when COVID hit, it was even harder to get.
Speaker 2:So there's a lot of obstacles for people to buy the copper or to get the copper bullets that's out of their control.
Speaker 1:So I'm assuming too that you can order lead ammunition from another state.
Speaker 2:I don't remember that.
Speaker 1:I feel like there's some rules about it, but I don't know I'm not into that either, but I understand that lead is still an issue then, oh, it's the biggest issue, but there's other issues.
Speaker 2:I mean they we have people accidentally shoot them or they get electrocuted from power lines.
Speaker 1:They drown, they so there's micro trash is the new one, I guess.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's not too new, but it's definitely a problem. Um, condors are relentlessly curious and they um like to pick at everything with their beaks and they also um will ingest it and then they feed it to their chicks and then it causes, you know, intestinal blockages and causes them to get sick. So micro trash is definitely a problem, especially for birds that live in areas that people are around, because people throw their trash and then they take it up to their nest and then it feeds they feed it to their chicks well, we're expanding out too, aren't we?
Speaker 1:into the areas where these birds live now, I mean hiking and recreational activities. Right got it. And with the population of humans, we're spreading further and further yes, got it got it all right. So there is. There is animals out in the wild and animals in captivity. I got it, so this is a combination of success, so to speak. Yes, you have to have both in order for success. But you mentioned too that babies, hatchlings chicks, are being born in the wild. Yes, that's awesome. It's so exciting.
Speaker 2:The first one was in 2004. It was a big milestone the first successful chick hatched in the wild, which was in 2004. It was a big milestone, the first successful chick hatched in the wild, which was just incredible.
Speaker 1:That's awesome.
Speaker 2:Just incredible. So, and it's great, we were talking about the wing tags earlier and you're right that all condors have wing tags, but when they're hatched in the wild. They obviously aren't born with the wing tags, so they don't get a tag until they are able to be trapped and checked by the biologists. So when you get to see a condor out in the wild without a wing tag, it's just amazing. It's my screen, my phone screen picture is an untagged juvenile wing condor.
Speaker 1:Have you seen them, Monica?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've seen them, yeah so this particular one I saw was at Pinnacles. This was several years ago, but yeah, I was at Pinnacles National Park and I got to see one. And you know, the juveniles look different than adults, so they're easy to tell the difference physically. But then also the lack of a wing tag that means they haven't been touched by humans yet.
Speaker 2:And that's what we want. Haven't been touched by humans yet. And that's what we want, and I guess at some point we will stop tracking individuals, but it's we're not there yet.
Speaker 1:Got it. I too have seen them, so I I saw them at Big Sur, which is part of the Pinnacles, I think right.
Speaker 2:It's part of Ventana, so Pinnacles and Ventana work very close together because geographically they're pretty close together.
Speaker 1:So in fact I wanted to tell the listeners if you want to see condors flying in the wild, there's actually, if you're in the California area, you can see them, you can. There's the Ventana Wilderness and Big Sur of course, part of that, the Pinnacles National Monument Park, where Monica just mentioned. There's and I'm not sure if I'm saying this correctly Cespe Condor Sanctuary in the Los Padres National Forest, the Sierra San Pedro Martir Mountains of Northern Baja California, mexico. So they're also now I know they're doing reintroduction back into the Mexico area and then the Vermilion Cliffs National Monument in Arizona. So that's amazing, yeah, so I mean. So there's lots of opportunities there to see like I have seen them in Big Sur. I actually didn't see them flying. They were at the area, the visitor center, sitting on poles and you know, as you can imagine, the jaw dropping. It stopped, everybody stopped. Car stopped, everybody stopped, which was great because it was quite a sight to see, but, yes, pretty amazing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've gotten pretty lucky. I do see them often when I go. I go to Big Sur a lot and I do get to see them often.
Speaker 1:And they're just amazing to watch.
Speaker 2:Their wingspan is huge and they just soar and you know, like I said before, they're really curious and so they'll come down to where cars are and they'll just be there, even though we want them away from people. Yes, yes, um, it does give you a chance to see them up close and it's just beautiful and they're a sight to be seen and, yeah, they're really. It's really special when you get to see them in the wild, just because there's not that many of them.
Speaker 1:So it's, it's a treat for sure, I think you just said it that opportunity to see them in the wild it was for me and really, you know, just stopped you in your tracks. This is, this is such a big bird. Your tracks this is this is such a big bird and it's such an amazing animal that I, I, I hope people want to see them, because it inspires that, that let's make sure we save them, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that their whole story is inspiring and they're very resilient birds and they just have hung on and we're helping them as much as we can and I think that they'll pull through, I think, with all the efforts that are happening, if those continue. And yeah, but they're majestic and they're beautiful and I have a big soft spot for them, that's for sure.
Speaker 1:And it sounds to me like you have hope as well. I do.
Speaker 2:I have hope because I see all the people working so hard for them. That's for sure, and it sounds to me like you have hope as well. I do. I have hope because I see all the people working so hard for this. It's inspiring to me. Every year I go to the field meeting and I get to see all these people and I'm a tiny, tiny, tiny part of it. But it makes me so proud to be a part of it because the people the other rest of the people are just incredible and we, in a way, I feel we're kind of one big family fighting the good fight and, yeah, and we're doing it for this bird that we all love.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Yeah, thank you, you're welcome. Thank you so much, hey. So, listeners, as usual, I'm going to have on our website some links for you to go to if you're interested in finding out more information. You know, I think US Fish and Wildlife, california Department of Fish and Wildlife, has some great information up there. I'm going to list, of course, our zoos, the ones that are near and dear to our hearts, because it's great. The collaboration is great, they're doing amazing things together and I think this serves as a great model for so many things that we could all do together. So check out the website. Anything to add, monica, about this incredible bird and the program.
Speaker 2:Just go out and try to find them. If you can go to Pinnacles or go to Grand Canyon or go.
Speaker 1:Oh, the Grand Canyon. Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then there's a new flock up in Northern California north of Eureka.
Speaker 1:There's definitely a smaller one Is that with the Yurok tribe.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's with the Yurok tribe, yep. So it's a smaller population but is growing. So hopefully those will be visible to people up there and that was an important one because of the historical connection with the Native Americans. So that was really moving for us to get birds back up in that area too.
Speaker 1:So yeah, this is a very symbolic bird for many Native folks, isn't it? Yes?
Speaker 2:it is Very much so Thunderbird?
Speaker 1:Did I hear Thunderbird or Powerbird is the name that they've given the bird? I haven't heard that. Yeah, because of their connection to it.
Speaker 2:It doesn't surprise me. Yeah, go out and find some condors and I hope you get inspired by their story, like I was.
Speaker 1:Like I am, yeah, like I am very much. So. Thank you so much, monica, for your time, your passion and everything that you give to our world. Thank, you.
Speaker 2:Thank you, Vanessa Thanks.
Speaker 1:All right, all right, listeners, take care of each other. We'll talk to you soon. Monica and I continued our conversation and she explained a little bit more detail about the lead poisoning, and I wanted you guys to hear this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was more so about the lead treatment that happens with a bird when they have lead poisoning. So a fact that I found was from 1992 to 2023, there have been 126 documented deaths from lead poisoning in the free-flying population. So, as we've said, it's the number one threat to condors. That's over 20% of the population.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a big deal. So how the birds are actually treated is? It all starts in the field with the biologist at the different flock sites, and the biologist will handle and trap their birds on a regular basis to replace wing tags or different monitors, and they'll often take blood and for different research studies, but then also to just check the lead levels of the bird because we know it's such a known problem. It's a routine part of when a bird gets handled. They get their blood tested, excuse me. So also if birds are showing what we call clinical signs of lead toxicity, like I said, kind of acting off or not eating or just down in the dumps, they'll also check the lead levels from the blood at that time.
Speaker 1:So biologists see that in the wild and they recognize that something might be wrong. Right.
Speaker 2:The bird is then captured, yes, and then brought in and sometimes the birds are captured and they look normal, but then on the blood results we find out that they do have high lead.
Speaker 2:So, condors have this shocking ability to live normally with a very high blood lead level, which is unheard of, and we don't know why condors can do that, but they can, and so oftentimes we don't see them acting sick in the wild, but when they do, that's a definite thing that the biologists notice.
Speaker 2:But, like I said, the biologists will also handle normal looking birds but check their blood as well. So at this point they're out in the wild still, but in one of their catch pens being handled by biologists. So then if they determine that that condor has high lead levels, they'll crate the bird and take it to a couple different options. But Oakland Zoo is one of the options. So we primarily get birds from the Central California flock, which is Pinnacles and Ventana, and with the addition of the Yurok site in Northern California we've also helped with the medical care of the birds from that flock. So for lead treatment the birds will come to Oakland Zoo. We have a pen just for them and that's on zoo grounds but not by the public area, and a little bit in a quieter area for them. And we do additional exams that consist of checking for lead fragments with x-rays, because it's metal.
Speaker 2:So we'll see it on x-ray and that's how we know if a bird has a lead fragment in it. Well, of course, we don't know that it's lead, but we presume that it's lead.
Speaker 1:Lead fragment from ingestion.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Okay, not from like bullet scatter or whatever. Correct, I'm not saying the right terminology.
Speaker 2:It's usually ingestion.
Speaker 1:It's usually in their GI tract, so yeah, from eating something that had lead bullets.
Speaker 2:So the if the hope is that there's no fragment, of course, because if there is a fragment, then we have kind of we modify, well, we add on a part of a treatment to try to get them to regurgitate or defecate out that lead fragment.
Speaker 2:But if they don't have a lead fragment then we don't have to add that part on. But regardless of a fragment or no fragment in the bird we do chelation treatment, and chelation means it's a drug that draws a substance out from the blood and then they excrete it in their urine. Got it. So the chelation agent that we use is calcium EDTA, and it's an injection that they get once a day for five days and then along with that we give them sub-Q fluids to help just support their body during this treatment. So we do that once a day for five days. On day five we take blood again to check their levels. We usually have to wait a couple days for those results to come in and then if the lead level is not down to an acceptable level, then we restart treatment after two days of rest.
Speaker 1:And the bird. It doesn't hurt the bird or no, it's not something, okay, yeah. There's no long-term effects for this.
Speaker 2:We don't know Besides getting obviously rid of the bird.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, we don't know because we don't have studies and data to show of a 60-year-old bird that has gotten calcium EDTA. But that's the best treatment we have right now with the knowledge that we have. So we don't. The drug itself can sometimes be damaging to the kidneys, so that's why we offer the, give the fluids at the same time, but we focus kind of on the short term and, like I said, we just don't have the data and the studies done to know long-term how that affects the bird. But we it's it's it's the right choice for us to do it does make sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a good thing to do so. Yeah, so it's a five day treatment, two days of rest and then potential multiple rounds of that. It depends on the lead level, Of course. In humans, the acceptable lead level in the blood is zero micrograms per deciliter. In condors as a whole, the group has decided that 35 micrograms per deciliter or less is acceptable to re-release them in the wild. So we wait until we get down to that number. I've seen birds come in with 500 micrograms per deciliter.
Speaker 2:Other biologists have seen them in the 700s. The one that we most recently had had a starting level of only 76, which is quote unquote good. So we only had to do one round of treatment for him and then he got to go back to pinnacles. So but we also know from the all the research and studies that have been done that we get them down and then we put them in the wild and then they just are re-exposed to it or leeches out from their liver or their bones right back into their bloodstream. So, like I said, condors have this crazy ability to live with this lead level in their system that none of us would be able to survive, and we don't know why.
Speaker 2:we're thankful because that's their biggest problem. So we do help them, but it doesn't fix the problem because the lead is still in their system or it's still in their environment so they're it's just kind of this constant re-exposure for them wow, you know I have to say what I'm thinking about.
Speaker 1:Two things, two things, okay. One what I'm thinking about when you're saying this is that you guys are constantly you guys, as the whole group of the collaboration, are constantly monitoring these birds. You know where they are, 24-7.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we hope to. Sometimes they all have trackers on them, wow.
Speaker 1:But yeah, and we kind of have to because there's so few of them that they're all valuable. Well, it kind of reminds me of my collaboration with Virunga National Park and the gorillas, the mountain gorillas. The rangers know where they are, 24, seven, all the mountain gorillas, you know, and that kind of blows me away. But it's kind of the same thing. It's all about making sure they're healthy, they're safe, and and you have to do that with such low numbers. Yeah, that's just amazing to me. Okay, and the other question, not the other thing that came up for me, this is a bad, but I want to know. So, when they're in captivity and they're carrion eaters, do you give them fresh meat or do you let it sit out for a while?
Speaker 1:and then give it to them?
Speaker 2:That's a great question. We do give them fresh I mean it's frozen rabbits or rats but then they, if they don't eat it, it just sits there and gets gross and then maybe they decide to eat it.
Speaker 2:So you don't let it get gross and then give it to them we give it to them when it's fresh ish, and then um, and then they sometimes choose to not eat it and then it gets gross. But it just depends on the bird. Some birds will fit down immediately. Some birds don't want to eat. The good thing with condors is that they can go for like three weeks without eating and be okay. I mean, they need water, of course. So if they just don't want to eat while they're being treated, that's, we don't worry too much.
Speaker 2:We keep an eye on their weights and how they're doing, but it's not terrible if they choose not to eat while they're with us.
Speaker 1:So this is Oakland Zoo's way of being involved right, because you guys have this amazing vet and tech team, or the veterinary technician team and the vets and everything. So I get it Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's how we are involved with the Condor Recovery Program. It started about 10 years ago that we were able to be involved, and that is how we are involved primarily is just by treating wild birds that have lead toxicity or just that have any medical needs for places that don't have their own hospital right there and you don't have california condors in the zoo.
Speaker 2:We do, actually, yeah when we expanded the zoo to include californ, we got to exhibit condors. Okay, got it, so they, we do have them on in our zoo. But yeah, then we just treat the ones that we get from the wild. So we don't have a captive breeding program Like that's what Oregon zoo does and peregrine fund. But so our contribution is to help with the treatment of the birds and it's a nice, it's beautiful, yeah, yeah, it's great. And it gave the biologists in central california a great option, because prior to us being involved, they'd have to drive all the way down to la zoo, which was quite a trek, as you can imagine. So it was just a closer option for them. So it's been great.
Speaker 1:It's also the program's expanding yes, that's awesome. Yes, yes, northern California yes, that's great.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's really great because we need more birds out there. Yes, thank you for that continued insight. Sure, I wanted you guys to hear that part of the conversation so you can hear to what extent the recovery program goes to to help save these birds. I thought it was quite fascinating. I saw a picture recently of a ranger kneeling next to Sudan the last male northern white rhino, the last male of this species. The image struck me deeply as it symbolizes the end of an iconic species.
Speaker 1:I can't imagine us losing another such species, even though scientists warn us that the possibility is very high, one that we might face very soon. The story of the California condor's recovery is a testament to what we can achieve when we work together. It is through this collaborative effort that we have seen the California Condors populations increase from the incredible low number of 27 individuals in the 1980s to 561 today. If you feel moved to please support the efforts of these organizations, let's continue to support and champion these collaborative conservation efforts to ensure that we do not witness the loss of another irreplaceable species. Visit the Two Chicks and a Hoe website for more information with links to the organizations we talked about today. No-transcript.