Two Chicks and a Hoe
We’re gonna dig deep into some really amazing people and topics — cultivating ideas about nature, the environment and conservation — in your backyard and globally. We want to share stories with you where the only intention may be for you to say,“Wow, I didn’t know that!”…and now that you do, maybe you might think about your relationship with it differently, share the information with a friend or get involved.
Two Chicks and a Hoe
Disconnect to Reconnect: The Art of Forest Bathing
What if spending time in nature could significantly improve your mental and physical well-being? In our latest episode, we explore the transformative practice of forest bathing with our esteemed guest, Kira White, a certified forest therapy guide. With her background in psychology and education, Kira will walk us through how immersing oneself in a forest environment can reduce stress, enhance mood, and promote overall health. Broadcasting from the serene East Foothills of San Jose, we discuss the origins of forest bathing in Japan and its scientifically-backed benefits, emphasizing the importance of reconnecting with nature in our increasingly urbanized lives.
Join us as we uncover the structured yet open-ended process of forest therapy. Guided by certified practitioners, participants embark on a journey that begins with a calming meditation to quiet the mind and awaken the senses. Through a series of gentle invitations, like observing what is in motion, individuals disconnect from daily distractions and connect deeply with the natural world. The experience culminates in a heartfelt council share, fostering vulnerability and community among participants. We also highlight the flexibility of forest therapy, adaptable for diverse group sizes and activities, from leisurely strolls to invigorating hikes.
We also delve into the nuances that set forest bathing apart from traditional hiking. This mindful practice emphasizes presence and connection with nature rather than reaching a destination. We share personal stories of connecting with trees and the therapeutic benefits of spending quiet, intentional time in nature. Discover how forest therapy has gained popularity worldwide, adaptable even in urban settings. Finally, we reflect on the profound personal significance of trees and conclude with a serene reading of Mary Oliver's poem "When I Am Among the Trees," reminding us to slow down and embrace the beauty of the natural world.
Forest photo courtesy of: InkWell_Literary
Kira White's website – Forest Bathing Collective
Forest Bathing in Japan
ForestBathingfinder.com
Association of Nature & Forest Therapy
Things that make you say "Wow"!
For more episodes and additional information visit the Two Chicks and a Hoe website and our Facebook page.
Big thanks to our Producer, Casey Kennedy.
Imagine starting your day, like many of us do, with the sound of your alarm clock. You pull yourself out of bed after a night that feels way too short. You quickly check your phone, already filled with emails and notifications, and you haven't even had your coffee yet. And the commute to work is stressful. Your day is stressful. By the time you get home, you're feeling worn out, but still buzzing with the day's demands. You try to relax, but your mind is filled with thoughts of unfinished tasks and the pressures of tomorrow. The evening news doesn't help, adding to your sense of anxiety. You find yourself scrolling through social media, feeling disconnected and overwhelmed. Now imagine a different way to end your day. Instead of being consumed by screens and stress, you take a walk in a nearby forest or park. The air is fresh, the sounds of nature are soothing and you begin to feel your worries melt away. This is the essence of forest bathing immersing yourself in nature to reconnect with the world around you and with yourself. It's a practice that helps reduce stress, boost your mood and provide a sense of calm and clarity. By spending time in nature, you can find a natural remedy to the hectic pace of modern life, helping you feel more balanced and at peace. Forest bathing, or shinrin yoku in Japanese, is a practice that involves immersing yourself in a forest environment to promote mental and physical health. It originated in Japan in the 1980s as a response to the increasing levels of stress and technology, and has become common in Japanese medicine for preventative health care and healing, and it does not require a bath or a rubber duck Force. Bathing is more than just a walk in the woods. It's an immersive experience that engages all your senses, helping you reconnect with nature and yourself. Studies have shown it can reduce stress, boost your mood and even improve your immune system.
Speaker 1:Thank you, hi everyone. Welcome to another episode of Two Chicks and a Hoe, the podcast that talks to amazing people doing great things in the world. I'm excited to introduce you all to Kira White, our guide today to the world of forest bathing. Kira is a trained and certified forest therapy guide with the Association of Nature and Forest Therapy. Kira brings a wealth of knowledge and experience to her practice. With a background in psychology and education, holding both a degree in psychology and a master's in education, Kira combines her academic expertise with her passion for nature. Kira has discovered that spending time in the forest brings a profound sense of healing and peace, and she's dedicated to sharing this experience with others, demonstrating how these walks can effectively manage stress and alleviate symptoms of depression and anxiety. Hello Kira, we need you. We need you. Thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your passion. I can't wait to hear about this practice.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Thank you, I'm happy. Thank you for asking me. I'm happy, awesome. Yeah, I'm happy to be here and talk about something I love. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Awesome, cool and we are in an amazing setting. You guys, we're up in gosh. I don't know what. For our mountain ranges is this this, this year as well.
Speaker 2:I believe. So we call it the East Foothills of San Jose.
Speaker 1:Excellent, so we are in Northern California, in the Bay Area, guys, and we are in a beautiful setting, in the foothills, it's summertime, it's very dry, but it sure is pretty still. It really is. So I wanted to share a statistic with you before we get started, because I think you guys have already figured out. I really love the statistics associated with all this information. So, by 2050, and really that's not really far away now, is it? It's only like 25 years away here 66% of the world's population is projected to live in cities and, according to a study sponsored by the Environmental Protection Agency you're going to this blows me away the average American spends 93% of their time indoors. So we're going to talk a little differently about that today. So we're going to talk a little differently about that today. Tell us, kira, tell us about forest bathing what it is and, I guess, a little bit of its history on it.
Speaker 2:Sure, sure. Well, forest bathing is a chance to get quiet in the forest. It's a chance to meet up with. A lot of times people do get training in the actual practice of forest bathing. I'm certified with the Association of Nature and Forest Therapy, as you said, so it's going out into the forest and with a guide and doing invitations.
Speaker 2:So there's some standard sequence of invitations that are being done. Oh, what does that mean? So basically, you can do forest therapy with a group or you can do forest therapy one-on-one. I particularly like to do it with more than one other person and myself. Just the group dynamics is kind of nice to be able to share. So the invitations are open-ended and we start with a meditation, some kind of it, well, an introduction first, and then we do a meditation of sorts and get quiet. So it's not a hike, it's not a jog, it's not a workout, but there are forest therapy guides that do this in conjunction to an active practice, like they'll go. There's one forest or there's not one. There's many forest therapy guides that will maybe do a hike and incorporate the invitations. So the invitation start with the meditation introduction, the group getting quiet, starting to awaken your senses to the forest, okay, and then after that there's a series of invitations that the forest dictates.
Speaker 2:So, I'm not. Yeah, I'm not. I'm, I'm not a forest therapist, the forest is the guide. Oh, okay, got it. And I am also a guide. So I'm a guide there. So I'm not, I'm the forest, the forest is actually. I'm so sorry, the forest is is your is the therapist and I am the guide. Got it? I think I said that differently.
Speaker 1:That's okay. So you're basically saying you're the one that gets the people there, but it's the forest that does the work.
Speaker 2:So to speak. Yeah, yeah, got it.
Speaker 1:So there's, you set up the direction.
Speaker 2:so to speak Right, so the invitations are very open-ended.
Speaker 1:I'm not quite clear what an invitation is, because it sounds like you. Are you inviting me to go with you? That's not what you're saying, is it?
Speaker 2:I am saying that in some ways grounded in um, in nature, and slow down with the meditation, being able to awaken, like the sense of uh see, you know all the senses, looking at, at, getting quiet, um, connecting and grounding to the earth. And then after that I'll give a suggested invitation for the group. Maybe the first one is, in the standard sequence, is what's in motion. So what I would do is offer the invitation to the group what's in motion and then give you some sort of timeframe depending on how long the walk is that day. Typically, a walk is two and a half to three hours, but they can be shorter and they can be longer. It just depends on the timeframe that people have in the world or you have in your schedule. And so, with the invitation what's in motion, maybe it's 15 minutes and it's a chance to, I'll kind of give a boundary and then the participant will walk around and just that's. The only thing that I suggest of them is to be looking at what's in motion, to let go of what's happened before they got to the space, what's happened at it was going to happen. To let go of the laundry, the grocery list, the phone calls that need to be made, maybe turn off the phone in the pocket. We don't usually get very many people on the phone out in nature, thank goodness. And then what I'll do is I'll sometimes use a shaker as a reminder, so, as people are in this space and kind of just wandering it can be on a trail or it can be in an open area and slowing their steps down and getting more grounded and so I'll use a shaker to remind people, because of course, our minds are going to travel, right. So I'll do a shaker just to remind people like, oh, maybe your mind has traveled to whatever it's going to travel to and try to bring it back to the invitation. What's in motion. And so I'll use a shaker like this. And so I'll use a shaker like this. And then it's just a suggestion, very open-ended.
Speaker 2:And then when we come back from the invitations, we do a council share. So we'll sit in a circle or stand in a circle and share our experience, and my question for everyone is what are you noticing? So that's the open-ended question and the counsel share is a sharing where no one is responding to you. Sometimes we'll use a talking piece, a rock, or stick in the circle. Sometimes we'll use a talking piece, a rock or stick in the circle and that person has the ground. They get to talk about what they're noticing. But, honestly, silence is very powerful and this is also kind of a playful practice. So we also encourage, if you'd like to, if you want to sing or dance when it's. I've taken people out when it's been 32 degrees and I've had some people moving their body and dancing around.
Speaker 1:To stay warm.
Speaker 1:To stay warm. Yeah, wow, okay. So I get that, and I like the idea too of coming back and sharing, if you want, but the idea that no one else needs to speak of to that, because I think we I think my experience too is that we live in a culture that somebody says something and somebody has to comment on it or put their you know, their their two cents in kind of a thing which I think can be restrictive to people sometimes, then, because they're always feel like they're being judged. So, yeah, I like that. That's a great idea, you bring up a good point, that's a really good point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I guess that's what came up for me.
Speaker 2:Yes, that you it came up for me.
Speaker 1:Yes, you know, speaking of your experience can make you very vulnerable as well. Yeah, I think that's part of the process, isn't it? Yes, definitely.
Speaker 2:Definitely part of the process and I think also, yeah, being able to listen. You know, like I've heard recently to be. You know, to have successful relationships is trying to do 80% listening and 20% talking.
Speaker 1:I love that. I do too. I think that stands very true. Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 2:Wow. So it's very non, like I said, prescriptive and also non-outcome based, so I'm not going out on a walk and looking for a certain outcome from a person. Everyone's personal experiences are different. Some people are very verbal on their sharing, some people have really profound experiences, some people are very quiet, some people. It can bring up all kinds of different feelings involved. So it changes and, of course, depending on where you do forest therapy, the environment changes, how you're feeling and what you're going to be noticing. If it's a very windy day, the what's in motion invitation is going to change from a very still day or if you're by a water source.
Speaker 2:Let's say which we encourage people to always put their feet or hands in in a, you know, a creek or the side of a lake or something like that okay, I okay, I get it.
Speaker 1:So it's. Is it meditation? It sounds different than meditation. It is different than meditation. Okay, yes, tell me that, then it's an experience.
Speaker 2:There we go. It's an experience. I think it's a. It's a. Is it a walking meditation, so to speak? It can be, it can be, yes so you start with a suggested meditation and then, after I give that invitation invitation, then I'll give another invitation and it. So it changes, and there's thousands of invitations that have been created by forest therapy guides, but there's probably hundreds of thousands that could be given, so maybe the next invitation could be would you like to, or just go out and look at textures?
Speaker 2:And so the next invitation would be, maybe that you would go and look at textures and, if you'd like to, maybe perhaps bring something back to share. Try not to pick anything off of trees or plants.
Speaker 1:Right, right right.
Speaker 2:And of course we give safety precautions wherever we are. In California you know we have poison oak and snakes and most of the guides are wilderness first aid trained. That's a good thing. Yeah, so we're out there. I mean, there is wildlife. We haven't seen anything really big and scary, but we've seen all kinds of other deer and wild turkeys and, of course, a myriad of birds and squirrels and things.
Speaker 1:You know, I just had a thought, because I spend a lot of time in the forest and in, I guess, the drier lands, what have you? I spent a lot of time hiking and I kept thinking well, this is like hiking, this is, you know, it's got to be. You go into the forest and you get quiet. But I'm seeing, at least for me, this it's not like hiking, like you said, but even more so because when I go hiking, I have a destination in mind and I'm really focused in on getting there and you know, and getting back, whatever that is. You know, I got my five miles in. I you know I did whatever that was. But I do notice, when I'm hiking and I stop, and when I actually become very present and tune into a tree or a grove of trees or some flowers, that kind of thing, my experience changes. That's what you're talking about, isn't it?
Speaker 2:I think so. I think it's different for everyone and yeah, it is not a height A.
Speaker 1:J a blue J just landed. Oh, you came to say hi.
Speaker 2:I know, and I just saw a thrasher behind us too. So we're surrounded by birds here, everyone. They decided we're safe enough enough and they've come to visit, and that's one is actually a very good point in forest therapy or forest bathing. Is that one suggestion by the guides. Every day, somewhere near your home, or, if you don't have that kind of setting, if you can possibly just even outside your front door, because you'll be surprised if you sit with nature for 20 minutes every day, and sometimes in the same spot, that nature decides you're safe and all of a sudden, all the birds that have flown away, or different creatures that have left because you walked out the front door, return after they realize that you're safe and sound, and so safe and sound. And so that is one of the suggestions of the actual training, and so the Association of Nature and Forest Therapy has been training guides all around the world Costa Rica, australia, europe.
Speaker 2:Tons of trainings are being done in all over Japan, all across the United States. So we are thousands strong now. So there's many people out there doing this in all kinds of cities. Okay, is there a high demand for this? It depends on the group. Certain places, yes, yeah.
Speaker 1:And so I'm thinking from what I read the history of this and like I think we kind of mentioned too that this happens everywhere, I mean across the globe, in the forest people, the things that you're talking about, maybe not necessarily guided, so to speak, but people have been doing this, going to the forest for their therapy for years or for millennia across cultures, their therapy for years or for millennia through across cultures. But in Japan, the they call it the practice of Shinrin-yoku.
Speaker 2:Am I saying that correctly. Yes, perfect.
Speaker 1:Shinrin-yoku. Shinrin-yoku, which is the practice of forest bathing, kind of like, in 1982, it became more of a I don't know an accepted thing, a thing, a guided, a real thing, so to speak, and they use that now as a form of therapy, right, kind of as a form of healing medicine. So what I'm reading too is that, like you said, there's guides in Costa Rica and Australia. They're kind of are there particular gosh for lack of a better word are there particular hot spots across the globe that call more to this?
Speaker 2:Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah, I hear what you're saying. I do hear what you're saying. I just think it's growing. I think California definitely has a lot of guides. There are other organizations that also train guides. It's not just one, this just happens to be the most well, I don't know, I don't want to say comprehensive or maybe well-known group, but there are other organizations that are training guides. I know I've heard Asheville, north Carolina, that it's such a popular practice that some of my guiding companions have.
Speaker 2:It's competitive there to actually to be able to get people out, because there's so many forest therapy guides in that particular area. I would say wherever nature is, where it's everywhere, because you can do forest therapy really anywhere. You could do it in a city park, you could do it with a plant.
Speaker 2:One of my mentors and I think I have two for a presentation We've done some indoor forest therapy where we just bring some plants and collected things from outdoors and one of my mentors has been doing it in nursing homes and it's really brought about a lot of amazing healing and just connection, a lot of memories. They'll put out a table of natural items and then they'll get to come and choose something and certain trees and plants or a rock will bring back a memory for them that they would love to share. For example, as we're walking to the place, usually with forest therapy, we meet in a parking lot area near a trail or a natural setting it could be a park and as we're walking to the location where I'd like to start the walk, I always ask everyone this question is there a tree in your life?
Speaker 1:Oh, I like that. I like that because I love trees. I have trees in my life and I talk to them. Oh my gosh, I'm telling everybody all my secrets here. I talk to them and I give them. There is an exchange of energy on a regular basis, you know, with the birds, with the birds and but the trees in particular I have. I'm seeing three trees in my own yard that I have a lot of connection with. That provide me an incredible amount of energy and shade and all of those things. But there is I love that. I never thought of that before and I actually never thought of my own connection like that before too. Great, yeah, very interesting. So, and that I was going to ask you that as well, but I think you've already answered it. I was going to ask can you do this type of forest bathing, or what else is it? Nature therapy, how do you get? What else was the word Forest therapy? Forest therapy?
Speaker 1:Forest therapy Forest therapy, or forest bathing, okay, yes, but the word forest itself is very specific and I'm wondering can you do this at the ocean? Can you do this? You know, in the desert Can you do this type of therapy and not in a forest situation, but it sounds like you can, because you did it at a nursing home.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 1:You can do it anywhere, yeah.
Speaker 2:So really I'm a certified nature and forest therapy guide. Got it, so any nature Got it. The beach is a beautiful place to do this practice. The desert has so many things to offer.
Speaker 1:Right, right, just types, different types of experience.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's so many different types. Yes, yeah, there's so many different places. You know, living in California, I'm very lucky right now I get to't be forest bathing or forest therapy without hugging a tree, and so I've suggested I just suggested you do not have to come out and hug a tree, you don't have to be a tree hugger, but I've had some people share profound feelings about that, about how they felt hugging a particular tree.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've had some really profound, you know, thoughts, even though it could be a joke. But we do one of the invitations and the suggestion everything's suggestion, everything's, perhaps, everything's open-ended, nothing's prescriptive. So one of the suggestions that we have is to go sit with a being. So when I'm talking about a being in forest bathing, we believe that we are all nature and so we are human beings, and then everything else out there is a being. And so there is an invitation that we invite you to do a sit spot with a being, any being. It can be a rock, a tree, a little bush, you know, whatever you feel like to go sit with a being, whatever you feel like to go sit with a being.
Speaker 2:And so when we as humans possibly maybe you're standing on the edge of something like the Grand Canyon, looking over and thinking, oh, look at how beautiful that is way out there. Well, you are that, we are that. You are nature. You are part of it, we are part of it.
Speaker 1:I'm listening. I love it. I'm listening. Tell me more about that. Tell our listeners more about that, please, so we are nature.
Speaker 2:it's not that we are separate. We are connected. Nature is us. You are nature.
Speaker 1:There's no separation.
Speaker 2:We're a mammal, we are nature out there beyond us is? I mean, it can be the way that you're thinking, but can we switch the dialogue and for you to realize the question what are you noticing? And that maybe not considered really the answer, but that you're part of this, that you are nature, you're not separate.
Speaker 1:So, kira, I want to talk about I guess I want to back up a sec, yeah, because I'm quite fascinated actually that the idea that I think people are realizing more and more that being so connected to the tech, technology world, whether it's our phone or computers or whatever that is, um is um, sucks the life out of you. That's, that's my wording, my interpretation of it. Sure, but um, and and the idea that the whole, the, the Japanese government, witnessed this and saw what was happening and created kind of a more of a formal title for the force bathing, but the whole idea that I mean, as I mentioned, listeners, you know we're in the Bay Area, the tech capital of the world. You know where it all kind of started, but I can imagine that the demand, or maybe even the demand for it, is high here. But I think there has to be some kind of realization first before they recognize that the need for this. Am I correct? Sure, tell me more about you know how are people.
Speaker 1:How are people getting this? How are they finally going? The light bulbs come on. Oh my god, I, I need this. I'm I'm not okay. I need this and tell me about some of the the benefits as well and people can be okay and not okay.
Speaker 2:Yes, because people can be highly functional. It's not it's not a practice that a promise to solve anything. So you can be completely okay and come out and do forest therapy and just, you know, would like to spend a few hours having an experience in nature. Yes, in nature. I agree with you about technology, that putting our phones away is a great idea and that that was one of the reasons that the Japanese government does mandate a lot of this for their workers. They take busloads of people to actually forest bathing.
Speaker 2:They're designating different forests outside of Tokyo as forest bathing centers and you will show up and they take your vital signs and then you do the walk, including a tea. We have a tea. We do a forest tea when we go out and they do the walk and then they do the vital signs after to show how much heart rate has come down and different things have come down from doing this practice as a stress relief. Wow, yes, so I've had a partnership with a wellness coach that brings some of her clients out and then to get the word out is, you know, it's just word of mouth.
Speaker 2:You know something like this is great Right right right and then I also work with in here in California there's a farm it's called Hidden Villa and it's a farm and wilderness area and a trust. It has a lot of educational things, so I work with them. Nice and a nonprofit I know that we were talking about that. This is not just California based, but I work with an environmental nonprofit.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I'm their he one of their healing and nature guides, nice, and then I were in the nonprofit is green foothillsorg and then I just recently got into Stanford and took out their wellness team. So my goal, what I would love to do with my own practice, my own goal is I would like to get this into the college setting and because most college campuses have some sort of park-like, forest-like settings, and so I would love for it to be mainstream and to get taught in the psychology programs and it is being offered in some campuses now that forest therapy is actually on the campus and that students can just sign up for it and do some forest therapy on.
Speaker 2:You know, let's say maybe I have no idea their timeframe, but maybe Tuesdays, every Tuesday at 11am, there's forest therapy on. You know, let's say maybe I have no idea their timeframe, but maybe Tuesdays, every Tuesday at 11am, there's forest therapy and it's connected to the wellness center. Most campuses, almost all campuses, now have wellness type centers and that students can go there and know that they could be involved in a forest therapy walk. So that's a big goal of mine right now is to get it there. So the actual APA we had a huge win this year. The APA what's an APA? The APA the American Psychiatric Association who puts out the DSM. I think we're on five now. What's a DSM?
Speaker 2:So that is that's like all the diagnosis for the psych, for psych in psychology. So that's like their booklet like like their huge not booklet, huge book that has all the different diagnosis and approved things. Okay so, and don't quote me on all of that, if you're a psychology person I may be saying this wrong, but anyway, so I, but I do know that this is just great information.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I do know this, that we have been spores. Therapy has been approved as a modality for healing.
Speaker 1:Really I love that.
Speaker 2:Really so we have. I've had amazing functional medicine. Doctors prescribe this and people call me and say, my doctor, functional medicine, a walk with you and be part of this program. So it is going to be I think I'm hoping it's going to be more and more, more mainstream. I love it and a useful thing for everybody. I love it. It's for everyone, for for everybody. I love it, it's for everyone, it's for everyone. And the thing about that, the fact is, is that I've had children come out and I've had all the way up into people into their nineties. So it's not age, it's not like pigeonholed by age, right right, and even saying that, too, it's not super strenuous.
Speaker 1:No, again, we're not taking a hike up the mountain, exactly. Got it Okay, I love it.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. I'm so glad it's getting that type of recognition, then, as being a type of therapy. Me too, Wow, Good. So how often I mean? You already mentioned so one of my questions was how much time to bathe. How much time do you bathe? But you kind of said that two hours I mean. So what is the standard time and how often should one do this? I guess it depends on what you're looking to get out of it. Help me out with that, Kira.
Speaker 2:Did you want to know the standard time of a walk, or the standard time of how many times, or both, both, both, okay, yeah, both. I want to know everything Before I answer your question. What I forgot to do is that at the beginning is that we always do a land acknowledgement with our walks, and so I would like to acknowledge the land around us, the tribal land of our ancestors, the Miwok and the Ohlone tribes that we're sitting on right now. So we will always do an acknowledgement and we also are very caring to the land that we walk on Nice and make sure that we leave no trace. Of course, nice right, and as far as how long? I mean, I feel I might be biased here, but I feel like everyone needs forest therapy and I've had people come out multiples, and I've had people come out multiples. I've had people come out weekly. In our training that we do with Association of Nature and Forest Therapy, we go and do an immersion, and so we did four days in a row of forest therapy.
Speaker 2:You can choose your area of the world you want to do your training in and we do four days of force therapy and I thought that before I went like that's going to be a lot, and when I left it wasn't enough. So I think it's kind of up to you.
Speaker 1:There's not a really prescription Okay. Yeah. So a lot of the people that come to you, or let me ask this so the people that come to you prescribed, so to speak, okay from you, called it a specific type of doctor Functional medicine, functional medicine, okay, I've never heard of that Functional medicine More holistic approach to medicine.
Speaker 2:They still use many of the same things, but it's a more holistic approach. A combination of all different types of practices and they still will do blood work and different things, but it's much more holistic. I like it.
Speaker 1:Okay, so a lot of the people that come to you via the functional medicine route. Is there a pattern that you're seeing? Is it anxiety? What is it? I mean, if you can share that with us.
Speaker 2:I think it might be stress and anxiety and some depression sometimes. I mean, I've had people come out. I had one participant that came out and realized that she hadn't been in nature in months because she lived in a home I think a townhome that has a garage and she would open her garage door, put her car in the garage and go into the house and she never was in any kind of nature for months and months, and months. Yeah, so there are people that do you know that that that will do that Right? So, um well, according to that statistic.
Speaker 2:yeah, and I can't say that's going to cause a person stress.
Speaker 1:Right, right Because.
Speaker 2:I'm not, you know, I'm not a doctor Right, and everyone's different.
Speaker 1:Right right.
Speaker 2:But I love the fact that it is being prescribed and I love that the wellness centers around the United States, yes, and I'm not sure about the world I hope the world, but the United States are suggesting it as a modality for students and people to feel better. I mean, for example, Harvard has I think they still have a thing called Walk with Trees and I think it's professor based campus that is doing something like that, that you can meet at a certain time and you walk with walk around the campus in the trees.
Speaker 1:I'm not I'm not sure who it's for this is sort of just something I heard.
Speaker 2:If somebody has more information, maybe we can get that from them, but I love the idea, the idea of something like that Keep, keep it going. And if they're going to offer you know, if they're going to say that forest therapy is a healing modality, then I really feel, like in the colleges, like we need to get some coursework for these students that are taking psychology Like an elective needs to be forest therapy.
Speaker 2:So when they go into practice they'll know what it is. And I've also seen some, or heard about some, psychologists that are taking out, or therapists are taking out their patients and doing their therapy outdoors now so still doing the talk. They're right in their talk, therapy right, but doing it outside so getting that added benefit?
Speaker 1:Yeah, wow, wow. I want to share an experience that I had that I don't think it's. I'll just tell you, because I'm trying to categorize stuff and I'm recognizing that's not how this really works, because, you know, is it the forest, the ocean, the desert? This it's nature, it's nature, it's nature, it's nature. So a couple of years ago I was up in Washington state and I went with some friends to the Olympia forest and we went in specifically looking for they call it the telephone in the wind. I'm not sure if you've ever heard of that, but I was like sure I'm game, they'd heard about it. So you have to.
Speaker 1:I wouldn't say it was a hike, but we walked in and it was a beautiful forest, you know, like a fern forest. It was darker and it was, you know, much more shady and it had a coolness to it. So it was different than many of the California forests that I've been in and it was very humid and moist. So it was a great walk-in and there was three of us and all of a sudden, in the opening there was a phone there, an old rotary phone, and the idea is to and it was so natural, kira, the three of us long-time friends. One walked towards the phone and the other two disappeared into the forest and gave that person that time, and the idea is to have those conversations that you can no longer have. And the idea is to have those conversations that you can no longer have, whether it's oh, it was a very profound experience for me Whether it's somebody that you've lost or an unfinished conversation.
Speaker 1:It was a great experience to be able to pick up the phone. I even knew the phone number. I dialed and I had that conversation. I hung up, I disappeared into the forest and my friend you know, my next friend got on the phone. It was a, like I said, very profound, a great experience. And then we walked out of the forest. It was put there. A gentleman put that there so that he could talk to his daughter that had passed, a very young girl, and I found that to be amazing therapy. And it wasn't just the idea of the telephone, it was the idea of it being out in a very remote place and in the forest, amongst the trees, in that energy and all of the greenness that was there. It was so, you know, the air. Everything about it was different, so different than if I had tried something like that, you know, in the neighborhood or whatever. To me that was my type of nature therapy.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, beautiful. Yes, I love that. Yeah, I love that and I mean, and I think that's amazing and I could see how that would just be a wonderful experience or just like even just a profound experience.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes.
Speaker 2:But the difference with forest therapy is there's no prescription. So if we did come upon a phone, somebody could use it, however, they wanted to, and that was the same.
Speaker 1:That was that concept. Yeah, because afterwards it was one of those things as such close friends, it's like, okay, who'd you call you know? Yeah, it was that concept. Yeah, because afterwards it was one of those things as such close friends, it's like, ok, who'd you call you know? It was like, who'd you call? Yeah, you know, and it was so different for us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, and it was so cool.
Speaker 2:I love that. It was so cool. Those unfinished conversations.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or I gotta say one more thing to you. You know that kind of a thing. It was good, yeah, it was good, sure, so, yeah, so I understand I, the power of, of nature and the power of being in the, in the forest, yeah, very powerful, very powerful.
Speaker 2:Yes, it is. Yeah, it can bring up a lot of things. Some people it can bring up just a sense of sometimes heart opening or grief. Sometimes for people yes, absolutely Feeling grief will kind of notice the existence of decay that is happening around them, because when you're in the forest there'll be like a fallen down tree that's decomposing, but then there'll be like a beautiful fern or a beautiful tree right next to it or a beautiful moss laden rock, and they all coexist together and that's sometimes a big realization for a lot of people.
Speaker 2:I mean, honestly, when I started my practice, I was finding nature to be really healing and I was living in Southern California and I was spending a lot of time in traffic and a lot of cement and it was the location I was living in was very difficult to get to nature easily. I got bits and pieces here and there, but not like real, like trail, forest type things. It was a challenge and I was coming up here to visit and going on a lot of trails up here and honestly, um, I kept kind of hearing the words. I knew there was a japanese practice and I was like what, like you? Like you were asking me what is the name of the practice, um, I kind of kept hearing it when I would go on these hikes and I started to go on solo hikes and I started just to feel this large amount of healing.
Speaker 2:So then I went home and did a lot of research and found out there is this practice called it Is Real, because I wasn't sure is this real, am I really feeling this? And then I found out there is such real like am I really feeling this? And then I found out there is such a thing called shinrin yoku. And then I had my mom, who passed away, and, um, I started going into the forest, um, and hiking to get through that grief and I, I, for some reason, when I was getting through the grief, I noticed the decay in the forest, a lot Like, oh, there's this old stump there, you know, there's this old tree, there's this old thing. And then I went and got my certification and as I was doing forest therapy with other people and taking people out, I realized I had stopped seeing the decay as much.
Speaker 2:It was just during that kind of during that grief period, even though I know grief is like a wave and comes and goes During that time, but then so that's how what got me into forest therapy was after researching Shinrin-yoku, and after experiencing the healing that I was experiencing after I was in nature, I decided I'd like to give it to others if I could. So, I did my training and have been doing it ever since. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So it was very like evolutionary for me.
Speaker 2:you know it was, and this is years. This is in a span of, you know, three, four years that all of this occurred. But and then you know, like I said, everyone could use it. We have one of our mentors. One of the mentors, big mentor and it's ANFT is the acronym is Ben Page, who did a lot of writing for the program, and then the founder is Amos Clifford, who founded the program in Santa Rosa, california. Okay, but Ben lives in Los Angeles and we were asking him well, why are you living?
Speaker 2:in LA if you're a forest therapy guy. Like why wouldn't you be, you know, in I don't know, you know in the forest somewhere? You know, living in Yosemite or living in, you know, Wyoming or something, and he said there are millions of people in Los Angeles and they all need forest therapy. Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh, he goes to where it was called.
Speaker 2:So a lot of forest therapy guides will have partnerships with arboretums and nature areas, especially in the big cities, right? So if you go to like a website, like in Santa Barbara or even in Chicago, the different arboretums, botanical centers, you can go to their website and you'll probably find something about healing in nature or forest therapy. Maybe not, but there's a lot of guides that work out of that all the way into, I know, like the Boston One of my trainers is from like the Boston area, massachusetts area, and so a lot of people are working with different universities. I know Yale has a big program, a lot of my guides. There's a guide there that works with them. So if you are looking for guides, of course you can go on a website and or Google it, but you may want to try a nature type botanical center and you might find a program there Excellent, yeah.
Speaker 1:So I wanted to ask you that too, so our listeners can. If you're interested in participating in forest therapy, we'll have a couple of websites on the Two Chicks and a Hoe website that you can check out, the two chicks in a hoe website that you can check out. But I like that, that idea that going through botanical centers, botanical gardens, even some universities, to find those people, to find that type of forest therapy.
Speaker 2:Well, if you're, living in a big city, it doesn't matter Exactly.
Speaker 1:Exactly Okay, because usually right, you don't have to live, it doesn't matter. Exactly. Exactly Okay, because usually Right, you don't have to live in the deep forest somewhere. Exactly, I know we'd like to, but yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, Because most cities have. You know, New York City has Central Park. I'm not sure if there's something going on at Central.
Speaker 1:Park Right right.
Speaker 2:But you know, every city has some sort of green space and Some sort of green space. And usually the green space maybe has a nature center connected to it.
Speaker 1:And you're saying that's enough. That's all I mean. Again, it doesn't have to be the big, grandiose forest you know, with nobody in sight. It can be a little patch of land.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Typically a forest bathing walk is not more than a couple miles total. Okay, Maybe you know, and that could even be far, and you know that could even be a long distance. It depends on how much walking the participant wants to do and what kind of terrain you're on. You know, because some forest bathing walks can be all trail-led. Forest bathing walks can be all trail led and some of them can be kind of an open or more open space where people can wander from one point, Got it. But there's also Forest Bathing Finder dot com or dot org. It would be another place. And then the Association of Nature and Forest Therapy has guides listed on their website.
Speaker 1:Okay, alright, you guys, I'll put those up. I'm writing them down before I forget, so I'll put those up on the website. So if you're interested in finding somebody to help you or find the right place, this will help. Awesome, yes, thank you, you're very welcome.
Speaker 2:Anything else you'd like?
Speaker 1:to add for the listeners.
Speaker 2:We're waiting for something. Let's see what would I like to add. Well, I just appreciate you having me and I hope that whoever's listening can get out there with someone. And it is different going with a guide. Everyone has told me that, because a lot of people say, oh, I go in nature.
Speaker 1:Well, that's what I was going to say too. I hike all the time, but I'm thinking the guide thing might be something different. I need to try this.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, it's because it's, you know, a lot of slowing down. You know a lot of slowing down.
Speaker 2:We wrap things up with what we call forest tea or a tea at the end where we provide some sort of forage, either forage, plant tea or, if we're not, 110% sure about the plants available some people will just bring garden things or something from a grocery store, and sometimes there's snacks involved and there's a camaraderie there, there's a chance at the end to just be able to chat and, like I said, it doesn't have to be a very serious practice. You know, it's what the individual makes of it, right? You know, that is the main thing and what I like to close with at my tea. And I don't know if it's okay with you, but I was thinking I could read a Mary Oliver poem, please. Is that poem, please? Is that okay, please? So for those of you that know or don't know Mary Oliver, she writes a lot of poems about nature, so I highly recommend her.
Speaker 2:And this poem is when I Am Among the Trees, by Mary Oliver. And this poem is when I Am Among the Trees, by Mary Oliver. When I am among the trees, especially the willows and the honey locusts, equally the beech, the oaks and the pines, they give off such hints of gladness, I would almost say that they save me. And daily I am so distant from the hope of myself in which I have goodness and discernment and never hurry through the world, but walk slowly and bow often. Walk slowly and bow often Around me, the trees stir in their leaves and call out stay a while. The light flows through their branches and they call again. It's simple, they say, and you too have come into the world to do this, to go easy, to be filled with light and to shine the end, thank you.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me the end, thank you thank you for having me now go out in nature. Thank you, go hug a tree you guys.
Speaker 1:I think Kira's reading of the Mary Oliver poem when I Am Among the Trees is a great way to finish this episode. Thanks for being with us. You guys Take care of each other.