What happens when you're faced with the unexpected news of your daughter's pregnancy and your world turns upside down? Can you navigate the whirlwind of emotions, make challenging decisions, and rise above the situation? As your hosts, we invite you to explore this journey with Dave, a father who found himself in this exact predicament.
With raw honesty, Dave peels back the layers of his personal saga, revealing the heart-wrenching choices he had to make considering his daughter's health, her relationship, and the future of the unborn child. As the situation unfolds, we delve deep into the realms of autonomy, responsibility, and self-reliance, navigating the turbulent waters of the legal system to find the best solution for his daughter. We reflect on the emotional and psychological impact of his experience, scrutinizing the strategies he employed and the challenges he faced.
This episode concludes on a somber note, highlighting the importance of having a safe haven during tough times, and the transformative power of mindfulness and surrendering to the present. Through Dave's journey, we get a glimpse into the struggles and victories of parenting, reminding us that love and grace always prevail. This is not just about parenting; it's about life, resilience, and the power of choices. Join us on this emotional rollercoaster as we spotlight the true essence of being a parent.
At Canaan Valley Spa and Wellness Center, our mission is to provide our clients with a serene and rejuvenating experience that promotes wellness of the mind, body, and spirit. We strive to create a welcoming and peaceful environment where our guests can escape from the stresses of daily life and find relaxation and balance.
www.canaanvalleyspawv.com
https//www.livingmindfullyaware.com
Canaan Valley Spa is a true destination space in Davis, West Virginia.
www.canaanvalleyspawv.com
Angie Shockley mindfulangie@gmail.com
http://www.livingmindfullyaware.com
Dave Gold dave@davegold.com
Show Engineered and Produced by: Keith Bishop bishop.keith@gmail.com
What happens when you're faced with the unexpected news of your daughter's pregnancy and your world turns upside down? Can you navigate the whirlwind of emotions, make challenging decisions, and rise above the situation? As your hosts, we invite you to explore this journey with Dave, a father who found himself in this exact predicament.
With raw honesty, Dave peels back the layers of his personal saga, revealing the heart-wrenching choices he had to make considering his daughter's health, her relationship, and the future of the unborn child. As the situation unfolds, we delve deep into the realms of autonomy, responsibility, and self-reliance, navigating the turbulent waters of the legal system to find the best solution for his daughter. We reflect on the emotional and psychological impact of his experience, scrutinizing the strategies he employed and the challenges he faced.
This episode concludes on a somber note, highlighting the importance of having a safe haven during tough times, and the transformative power of mindfulness and surrendering to the present. Through Dave's journey, we get a glimpse into the struggles and victories of parenting, reminding us that love and grace always prevail. This is not just about parenting; it's about life, resilience, and the power of choices. Join us on this emotional rollercoaster as we spotlight the true essence of being a parent.
At Canaan Valley Spa and Wellness Center, our mission is to provide our clients with a serene and rejuvenating experience that promotes wellness of the mind, body, and spirit. We strive to create a welcoming and peaceful environment where our guests can escape from the stresses of daily life and find relaxation and balance.
www.canaanvalleyspawv.com
https//www.livingmindfullyaware.com
Canaan Valley Spa is a true destination space in Davis, West Virginia.
www.canaanvalleyspawv.com
Angie Shockley mindfulangie@gmail.com
http://www.livingmindfullyaware.com
Dave Gold dave@davegold.com
Show Engineered and Produced by: Keith Bishop bishop.keith@gmail.com
Hi everybody, welcome back to the exceptional parents extraordinary challenges podcast with Angie and Dave. I'm Angie, obviously.
Speaker 2:Dave, it must be day. We've taken a little break from recording our podcast.
Speaker 1:Dave and I both had some things we needed to take care of on some very full plates, and so we've moved through some of those things and we've come back together today and this will be our final recording of the podcast, as it has been described as exceptional parents, extraordinary challenges. We're not going away. We're actually expanding our podcast to go out into other areas, and I don't really know what we're going to call it at this point. We haven't really decided the Dave and Angie show or whatever it turns out to be, but we want to continue to visit with folks and share some wisdom and really help people as they're moving through their lives. That's what we find ourselves doing day to day is helping people transition to the next phase of their lives, and so we want to be focusing on some of that work.
Speaker 1:But today, our guest on the podcast is Dave, and we're going to be touching on a very personal and very heartfelt topic that I know. Dave, I'm very grateful that you're willing to have this conversation on a public platform, because it is a very personal thing and I think that there are a lot of parents and families out there who are going to be able to identify with this and be very grateful for the opportunity to hear you talk about your experience. So, with that being the tea up, I'm going to hand you the club and let you go into this the way that you would like to.
Speaker 2:Okay, thank you, angie. And just in terms of the transitioning, both Angie and I have felt that it's there's something more. It's like transcending and including, meaning that we'll still touch upon these topics, but there's something that this is part of that's been revealing to us. We both felt the calling and we are actually going to be face to face a couple of weeks for the first time and I don't know, I was still a young man when it was. So, whatever it is, it'll still carry the heartfelt nature and probably still touch on some of the parenting topics, but it will be in a larger context that is not just answering what's calling in our lives, but in all of your lives. Everybody's listening to. We're just respond. That's all I did. I do, we're just responding to what we're doing. All right, enough of that.
Speaker 2:So, before I get into this topic, I was reluctant to I guess I was reluctant to share this because it is so personal, not just to me but the other people who, whose privacy I have kept in mind, even as I've shared some very personal stories about my daughter, my ex-wife, my current wife, other characters and at first I said no, I can't do this.
Speaker 2:And then, once the I don't know, I'll get into more, but last Saturday, as I was processing or whatever was happening, I knew that I needed to share this, that it was too poignant and too instructive and too transformational to keep it to myself, and I will deal with whatever fallout might come from the fact that I'm sharing this afterwards.
Speaker 2:So that's the first thing, that this was not something that I was casual about. Second is I want to begin with what might sound like patronizing or patronizing I don't know how to pronounce the word Comment that I adore my daughter, I love my daughter, I have such deep respect for my daughter, I have such deep appreciation for who she is and the difficult path she has chosen and that, as I talk about what the last month or so it's and may make some very harsh reflections on who she is and the choices she makes and why we've taken the course that we've taken, that I always want, I want all of you to hold what I hold, which is this deep appreciation of the perfection of who she is and of her life, and my deep love for her, and that any comments I might make, joe, might seem judgmental or harsh or negative, or they're diagnostic, that's all. They're just diagnostic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'll just cap that by saying I've been honored to be on the periphery of this last little journey that you've had, and I just want to I want people to really truly take that to heart, because none of this last little month, or whatever it's been, has been an easy process for Dave or for his daughter, or for her mother, or for Julie, dave's wife.
Speaker 1:It's been a pretty tough thing and I've watched you go through some some pretty big aha moments as a parent and as a human.
Speaker 1:You've shared a lot about your family on this podcast and I know that we have so many listeners who are grateful for that, because it's really helped them in so many ways, and you have this unique ability to be in it and to also be an observer of it, and I know that when you're, when you're speaking, what you're going to be talking about, you're going to be talking as that observer today and as somebody who not only is the father and very much in this experience but also a professional who's observing from the outside, and so that's a unique position to be in which. So I just I don't think that your comments are judgmental. I think they're observed, observant comments and I think they're expert comments, because you have helped other people through similar situations, and so now it was your turn to help yourself, and so now you have this unique perspective, and I think that unique perspective is what's going to help other families with this experience. So, anyway, again, thank you, thank you for doing this, you bet.
Speaker 2:I'd say if this was a traditional podcast, we said this was the teaser to get people to listen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, tell them why. Let's throw the pitch. And again, I don't know what's going to come out. Yeah, so I back towards my daughter's 22nd birthday. The 22nd birthday as I was visiting with my daughter. I have been. I live in Chapel Hill, north Carolina. My daughter lives in Raleigh it's about 20, 25 miles and I my office is in Raleigh. I go there about once a week and what I generally do is I'll go in there and I'll spend some time with her and pick her up, we'll go get lunch, we'll hang out, whatever. And it was a day where I just went and we were hanging out and, as she said, daddy, I got something to tell you, but I don't want to tell you now because I want to have a good morning with you. And I thought, oh sure, but it's not bad, it's not bad, it's okay.
Speaker 2:And I just this is capturing again. She's 22, but this is like a 14 year old, it's like a young, early teen. So I just want to set that context because and I'm thinking, yeah, just don't add up, she doesn't want to tell me, but it's not bad, and so it's I have to drop and I get a call. I was going to be a little late back. I had a meeting and I thought I'll be late. And because as I'm dropping her off, she's saying I got something. Okay, I want to tell you this now. And I'm thinking, all right, I need some time. And I call the office and they said, no, we need you in here right now.
Speaker 2:So it was like no time to process. She said I'm pregnant and that is a always a shock, but especially a shock because my daughter's boyfriend is transgender, so she's not getting pregnant from her boyfriend and, as far as I know, she's monogamous and she's. This has not been part of our journey that so often others who go through this have to deal with promiscuity. That has not been in one of the crosses that we've borne. And I forget how far along she was six weeks, eight weeks. So I think she was eight weeks along and and she said the only reason I'm telling you is my mom said that I had to tell you if she had, if I didn't tell you that she wasn't. I don't remember what the lever she was, and so it's a shock, but I said, abby, I don't have time to process this. I literally, you just dumped this on me and I was corn just for me. Like, do I stay and process this? Or the fact that once again, it's like she's calling the shots and my life is being. I don't want her to say, okay, yeah, I'm going to miss a really important business meeting because she's done this. So I just made the choices. Okay, we'll deal with this later. And I don't remember exactly what it is and part of it is all you know, all parents, but especially parents, are particularly challenging kids. Whatever that threshold is, you think you've seen it all and done it all on your immune or whatever. And God it's. There's one more there's. I remember one of my businesses. I said there's one more landmine out there. There's always, when you're in business, there's a hundred landmines out there. So, anyway, I'm going to speed this up.
Speaker 2:So I came back and a couple of days later whisper I talked to her mom and her mom had known and she was about, I think, eight weeks or so Pregnant. Mother didn't know much more than I did about this. And I talked to her mom like, what do you want? What do you see here? What are the options? And it was she doesn't want to have Abby keep the child and if she's not necessarily she's like neutral on termination. But if Abby decides to, if she said, if Abby keeps the kid, I'm not gonna support her, but she can come and move in with me while she's carrying the child if she agrees to give the child for adoption.
Speaker 2:Of course Abby was adopted. So we have familiarity with the process and that and I so. Then I got a process and I think I'll jump forward and give a little more background information and I'll go through my processing. So a couple of days later it is her birthday and I drive to Raleigh and she tells me Abby, how did you get pregnant? And she said we needed money and I put an ad on Craigslist and I had sex for $200. And that's how I got pregnant. And then you get the situation. Well, I don't know which is more depressing or debilitating, or I can go with a whole bunch of D with you, or something.
Speaker 2:That she's pregnant or that she's sold her body for money. And then the interesting thing is I don't even know if that's true, Because there's so much, there's just such a trail of untruths that we've become accustomed to, and it didn't really add up. And I think she was eight weeks or so, and what do you wanna do? And she says I won't kill a living thing inside of me. And at this point I had made up my mind, I was gonna listen and I was going to just take it in. And there were a couple of points that I did make to her. And let me just go forward. It doesn't matter. Let me just tell my processing because I'm sorry, I just ran right here.
Speaker 1:You're doing fine. You're doing fine and we know this is tough.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's tough and also I always say I don't wanna tell stories like my mother which you're not going anywhere, get a Snickers bar, pack a lunch, kind of thing. I don't want people to have to pack a lunch. But I, first of all, abby is not anorexic, but she's just very thin. She's very unhealthy out there. She has a number of health conditions, real or imagined. She doesn't eat. She's been in the hospital I think at one point it was like 14 times over a course of six months and I can never discern what's real and what's not real. But enough to say that she is a fragile child and I think I've talked before people like Angie, people who bridge dimensions and I don't know if Angie's uses it, but I think she's confirmed it but she's like a fairy. She just doesn't have the physical stamina, she's just not embodied enough to be able. And she's unhealthy. She doesn't eat.
Speaker 2:Well, it's been a fight, not a fight, it's been a struggle to keep her calories in her all since she was a kid and she was like the 98th percentile of in the wrong way and it was like constantly the doctors say if you don't get up to this weight, we're gonna have to do something else. So this has been a kind of a lifelong battle with her, and she doesn't take care of herself, and so there's just a question of her physical health. It's the fact that she had with her own. Whatever her neurological or biological background is, there's certain things that she's carrying from her own situation, from her own birth parents, which was a healthy environment that we, from the different things we've been involved with, think that have impacted her. And so you've got one.
Speaker 2:Whatever genetically she's carrying with her own health, that the idea of her being able to bring a healthy child to term is really challenging. It's not something you want to speculate on, but it's not something you could ignore, and then it's okay. So what's my position? And this is where I want. I know we've all faced similar parallel kind of processes or things like what do you do? What do you actually want for your child at this point?
Speaker 2:And I think that's the first question is getting clear on your own intention. If this is gonna be instructive, is you gotta be clear of your own intention before you really engage with the other, because otherwise you're gonna get just run all over the place and it's gonna be emotional. So clarity of intention was the first thing. And Julie, who some of you there's an episode back if you haven't heard before where Julie was on and you'll get an idea of both how Ange and I talk about her, but you can hear her directly is a tremendous partner and very I don't want to say direct, but certainly she can she gets to the point and she sees things clearly. I have Ange in one ear and Julie on the other and I walk between them and she's beyond a straight narrow At least keep me from veering too far to the left or the right and she was really concerned about the health risks to the ambient, to the child, really concerned about the health risks to the child. But the other thing that became clear because of the fact that for those I don't know again if you come in the middle of this movie, the beginning or the end of the movie in terms of the exceptional parent stuff is. We have a dynamic where her mother will always rescue her. You call it support, whatever you want, but it turns out to be a rescue and no matter what situation Abbey gets in or what boundary she sets, when it comes to Abbey really hitting rock bottom, it's not going to happen. We, I can't. There's not really a unified front, although we'll talk a little bit about how unified we're able to get in ways that are helpful.
Speaker 2:But what became really clear and this is interesting again, you can judge or you can discern, or you can editorialize or just apply it to your own life. It's like that if that child, whatever happens to that child, if she does keep, if she says, I'll give it up for adoption, you can't, there's no, it's not cliche, it's not worth the papers written on, for any reason. With any mother you never know. When we picked Abbey out of her mother's arms at birth, it was like it's that moment. But then you have someone who is just not trustworthy, has proven herself to be less than trustworthy. So there's no assurance that she would go through on that.
Speaker 2:But do I want to spend? I'm 71, do I want to spend a year? 70, through to as many years? I haven't just planned it, caring for that kid because I would and Julie would, and this would be our life, this would be a big part of our life, and I could. Of course, there's voices projecting on me saying oh you selfish son of a bitch, you want to terminate pregnancy, just so you're not inconvenienced. Yeah you know what.
Speaker 2:It's not inconvenience. It's a question of do I want my life to be so fundamentally altered, especially if it's a child that is born with some significant challenges? Is that fair to Julie? Is that fair to me? Is that fair to everybody? Is that fair to my life? Is that?
Speaker 1:what I want. Is it fair to the child? Is it fair to?
Speaker 2:the child.
Speaker 1:And that I want to ask just a couple of questions. Yeah, please, we had a conversation, dave and I and Julie was part of the conversation as well when Dave sent me an email and the email had one sentence in it Abby's pregnant. And I was. My first thought was okay, is this real Cause, the not trustworthy part and the manipulative part of her? So I wrote back and said are we sure? And I got an email back said yeah, we're sure. And so Dave and I got on a phone call not that I have any answers at all, but I knew that he and Julie were gonna need someone to bounce the thoughts off of as they come.
Speaker 1:And those were tough conversations between you guys and with me in it, and I remember saying to you there is no right answer to this. There's no right answer and I think that's a really important thing for parents who have found themselves in this same situation or maybe who are currently in this situation or who anticipate this situation, because I've worked with all three sets of parents there's not a right answer and there's gonna be judgment. No matter what you do, no matter what you say, no matter how you feel, you're gonna have judgment on yourself and there's gonna be judgment from outside on you. There's gonna be guilt and shame come up. Those things are real and I know that you, dave, went through those all of that. You went through all of that in a very short period of time, and I think it's really important for parents to understand that those emotions are real and they're okay. It is absolutely okay to not wanna spend the rest of your life caring for an infant who may or may not be born with challenges. That's a choice that you, as a human, get to and have to make in this kind of situation, and I think I know parents that are raising their grandchildren right now for this same reason, that they had a daughter or a son who brought a child into the world, or more than one, and we're not able to take care of those children in a healthy, safe way. And so you have people who were ready to retire, looking forward to retirement plans for retirement, and now their retirement is 100% focused on raising another generation of children.
Speaker 1:I have a tremendous amount of respect for those people. I also have a tremendous amount of respect for you, dave, for making the choice that you made. I think it's important to understand that both of those choices are right and both of those choices are wrong, depending on your perspective. And one of the things that I said to Dave and I think this is really important I cannot ever say this is what you should do, because I'm not in those shoes, I haven't been in that space. And one of the things I said to you, dave, because you said this is gonna be my grandchild and I said, yeah, this is gonna be your grandchild, and so you're facing a very hard decision Is this something you want to be a part of or you do not want to be a part of?
Speaker 1:Based on all the facts that you know about the situation as it stands and at the end of that conversation you hadn't really made up your mind yet, but you were in that space of really being tortured. You were really a tortured soul for a while there. This is my grandchild. Do I just abandon this child? Do I abandon my daughter? Do I? Is it not abandonment? And am I making a choice here that's best for everybody in the situation? And it was another one of those times that we talked about. What happens right now affects the world for the next 20 years. It affects everybody for the next 20 years, and so how do you make the decision that's best for you to try to make a decision that's best for your daughter, because she's an adult and can do whatever she wants to do. That was about a 48 hour period for you. That was pretty tortured, I think. Is that a fair description?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's good because you've helped me contextualize what it. First of all, I have no desire to tell this story. I've just told my, I've told some people what's going on because they need to. I'd get on a call with someone. I'd be and I'd say, look, I just gotta tell you something's going on, so it's not. Oh, I can't wait to tell this story over and over. This is really one of the few times that I could.
Speaker 2:Even I don't remember thinking I've told anyone this story, my family or anyone else, the completeness, and I don't want to just be able to let you, let's say, the stage of our lives instead of watching it so far.
Speaker 2:But let's just Dave talk about his torment. But what I want to do is I want to make points along the way that I think are what led me to conclude, or whatever, that I needed to share this, because I think there's some really critical points that apply to this situation, every situation period, and it's so perfect how you contextualize this is, if this is the swan song of exceptional and it's extraordinary challenges, and then let's put a ribbon on it. The first thing is this is your decision and we don't want that. We want everybody's ideas, we want to put it, we want to even. We think it's our decision. But we're looking at my decision through the eyes of how are my neighbors gonna think, how's my ex-wife gonna, how's my ex-wife's family, who are evangelical Christians, gonna feel, and everybody I tell this to, where they're gonna look like. And this requires a level of autonomy or I don't know there's another word for it but just of self-reliance and authority and responsibility.
Speaker 1:Self-referencing yes, self-referencing.
Speaker 2:Whatever that is, one is, just realize this is mine. There's nothing selfish about that. This is actually rising to the full height of you as a human being. And then there's and I probably mentioned this, I thought it was my father talk. There's three things I took away from my father, among others about I call it enlightened decision-making, and one of them was is this mine to do? And that's the big question of is this mine, was, is this? So? The question is okay, it's me, I'm making the decision, of course, with impact. I'm Julie.
Speaker 2:I had a great deal of influence and consideration, and others, like New Ange, especially in terms of advice. I don't think I'm able to advise anyone besides you and Julie, but anyway. So one you said this you're not in a vacuum or in a silo. It's yours, it's gotta be yours, has to be yours. Other way you're gonna have doubts, conflicts, whatever gratuitous. You might have second thoughts, which is interesting. I'll get to the end of the movie, as I don't is. But okay, it's yours. And then the question is is this yours to do? And then and that's had a couple of implications here and one, is it mine to raise a child, to spend the rest of my life, raising this child, and asking my wife to do that and asking her to make that sacrifice of, and the accommodations in terms of those, and then it's okay and then it's what's mine to do.
Speaker 2:And this was really interesting again, why is all Perry? Stuff is okay. How much impact do I have here? What's my leverage? What's my leverage? How far am I willing to go? And, angie, you were the once again, you're just an angel here. Because what so?
Speaker 2:Just going back, my daughter said I don't wanna, I don't. She wanted to keep the bitch she wanted, she did not want to terminate the and unfortunately you can't really just take her reasons at face value, because she'll hear something, she'll repeat it and it's just who she is that you know. She said I won't kill a living thing. That sounds good and I appreciate that and I love life. I love life in all forms.
Speaker 2:But what really was is she has a cousin who she's close to, who had a baby, a similar situation, and the whole family's banded around and it's one big, happy family the grandparents, their siblings, extended family, and that's the family Abby's never really had. And now this is her chance to have this family and that's. I know that's driving her I know that's what it really is driving her. And later on I remember when I was pushing, when it became clear what direction I was taking, she said I think this is discrimination, because my cousin's allowed to have a baby and I'm not. And that was like, oh okay, good, my bullshit meter was too Spot on yeah it was spot on.
Speaker 2:So then, what's mine to do? Because I, the next month of the conversation, I said Abby, here's my concerns. It's your health, it's the baby, it's meat raising this kid, it's all the different things that you don't have, and God bless her. Her cousin said Abby, you're nuts, I've got parents, I got a family. It's together. My parents are together. I've got a brother, I've got a job. I don't have all the challenges. You're never gonna. Even the person whose dream she was appropriating is telling her you can't have it it ain't gonna work.
Speaker 1:It won't work. You're not set up for success in this situation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and she. So basically, she at first she was no, I don't. I will go with you to explore options to you, but this is not what I wanted to do. So then, without getting into more, I'm in North Carolina. North Carolina's law was changing July, july 1st, where, in terms of when you could terminate, how you could terminate Besides, just, it's not like I got a whole bunch of time to luxuriate and honor this thing I gots to move and I get on the phone and I made a point with Planned Parenthood and we went Planned Parenthood and she came out and they said we won't, we can't do the pill, which is what we wanna do, because she, at this point she was more than 10 weeks out and they beat they just too many health risks, they wouldn't do it.
Speaker 2:So now I'm scrambling one, I'm in my own process, I'm also working with Abby and now I'm working against the clock. And this is interesting because I lost my equanimity at this point. I lost kind of the trust of, just okay, I'm on the train, let's see where the train goes. I gotta tell you I just went to fight or flight, I went to panic. I'm like I was a trial lawyer. I'm like the trial lawyer whose case is falling apart in court and it's freaking out and I really, yeah, okay. So meanwhile and this is where Grace came in, and it's so interesting because there's just been so much Grace as something that Angie and I talked about in different terms, and we live our lives that way, we transmit that way, and I watch Angie's and I watch myself, but it's so much easier to sometimes see others is Angie just radiates the trust that her own life has proven in the amount that, yes, it's going to be hard and yes, there's going to be help.
Speaker 2:And I got on the phone and started calling to see what the options were. And then I'm talking to a doctor, picked up the phone in one of the places and he said, oh, you have to go to Duke or UNC because of her condition. And at that point I was able to get into the hand rather than being just in a clinic or one of these. They're all doing great work and I'm going to diminish them. But suddenly, as much as you hate the corporate nature of healthcare when you're in this situation, it just be able to get on the train, and we got on the train and so it was now a pathway where we can make this work.
Speaker 2:But at this point then and this is where it comes back to one of the other lessons about whatever we call it lessons but one of the takeaways is what, how, what do I believe I came to the conclusion that the best determination was the best and the only option would really work, and I won't get it. All the reasons We've covered enough to say that's where I landed. And then Angie was. I don't know if this is another conversation with you or what it was, but Angie said you, basically, you wanted to tell them the choices that you told me that I had, or do you remember them? Because you gave me three? You'd tell you I had three choices.
Speaker 1:You wanted to do it. Let's see if I can remember, you had the choice to cut your daughter off, not be a part of anything. You had the choice to take this child and raise it. And I forget the third choice. What was the third choice? The?
Speaker 2:third choice was you just. It was basically you just kind of ride with it and see where it goes.
Speaker 1:See where it goes.
Speaker 2:You make your point, you make your point made, but you'll say you'll do this and I didn't have a lot of time and the question that I was facing and the choice that I was making. Would I be willing to tell my daughter that if you have this child, I am not going to be a part of it, of her life? Is it her life or your life?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I want to just point something out while you're talking about that. So how we got to, how Dave got to this, we yes, we had the conversation with the three choices and all of that, and again me telling him there's not a right or wrong, these are just. This is the reality of where you are and you have to make this choice, as hard as it is. But the saying he was in a situation where we knew, because of some previous medical appointments, that his daughter was not going to make the choice to terminate this pregnancy and if she was left to her own devices, she was going to come up with a million reasons that were not real of why she couldn't medical reasons. The doctor said blah, blah, blah. So those kinds of things were happening and because she is an adult, there wasn't anything that Dave or anybody else could do in her life. These were her choices and she was going to get herself to the point where termination was no longer a medical option. And so when we were having this conversation with the three choices and that was the toughest moment I think one of there's another moment, I think that's really tough and we'll talk about that in a minute, but it was the toughest thing, I think, for you, dave, to be in that space of.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know that for me my own sanity, for my family, for my wife, for my future I can't take this on and I can't ride the wave and see where it goes. And the only leverage that I have as a parent here is to say, if you make the choice to have this child, I will no longer be a part of your life, nor a part of this child's life. And you're making the choice I just want to say this so that people really understand the depth of the emotion that went with this. You're making the choice to not be a part of your grandchild's life Because of all the reasons you've talked about. We don't need to repeat them. There were very good reasons for you to make that choice, but still, that is a gut-wrenching, heart-wrenching decision to have to make and statement, to have to say to your daughter and to yourself, to say it out loud, to know that it's real in that moment. So go ahead.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and this is one of the takeaways again is we just keep talking about it's a surrender, you surrender the path that you let go, and yeah, and you keep, and there's always one more. And this was like holy cow, this is really letting go. And it's not like this is some spiritual crisis where God's testing you to see life's testing you to see if you really eat your own cooking. No, that's all bullshit, it's just wow. Am I really willing to step out of my child's life and really do it? I knew, I know what it means to make commitments. I know what it is to really step into the implications of those commitments.
Speaker 2:Of course, I'll never know how I would have, how it could have played out, but I had 24 hours to make that decision because, for whatever reason, just so just guys working out and I came to the decision that it was a very well obviously wrenching decision to come to and to really back it up and to just go through the scenarios and to mourn and grieve we thought about all that stuff but to really pre-grieve that, okay, this could be, this really could be a hiatus, and then so you make that, you deal with all the what people are gonna say or think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, not a big deal, but you can't go through it, it's real, then you gotta convey it. And this is this little girl who I held in my arms and this is telling her hey, this is it. And I met with her and I don't remember exactly how I told her, but I told her that if she made the decision to move on with the pregnancy, she would not hear from me. I was out. And if she did have to go through it and had a baby and gave the baby, gave the child her for adoption, we'll revisit where we are then. And if you keep the child, I'm out. And yes, I don't need to. I think it speaks for itself in terms of the challenge that goes with that. All the emotion goes with that.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:Angie said, this is so important and this really was the tipping point for me. Sharing this. You have to. It behooves you in every situation to just feel everything there is, to feel and that is just so critically important through this, to just feel. I just feel it. And again, we talked about the between feeling and indulging and going into some dark hole because you love the suffering and the drama and all that stuff. No, you just feel. You just really feel and you know, look, life has prepared. Life prepared me for this as much as it can. You prepared me for this.
Speaker 2:Everything in my life prepared me, without getting overly dramatic, but just looking at that through that particular lens of that moment, prepared me with all the pre-greeding, all the good and go, all of the decisions. All the time I had look like a son of a bitch and stand up and make that and pulled to that. And meanwhile she at this point I said I'm not giving, I'm not she had made the decision. She wasn't, she was no longer just playing games, she was not going to terminate the pregnancy and I left it at that. And her mother was. Her mother said that if she had she kept the baby, she would not support the baby. She said she still was not going to cut her off if she went ahead with the pregnancy, but for whatever it was worth, we were in solidarity, that we both believed that and the way her mother was praying for was a miscarriage, and I would have been.
Speaker 2:I hate to say that'd be nice, of course.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it takes a decision out of your hand. And, yeah, it's the. In some ways, if we put it in the triangle, it becomes a rescue of sorts, exactly, and nobody has to make a decision there and nobody, nobody has to use leverage, and you're the one who stepped up and used leverage. And I just want to point out the grief part of all of this. We've talked a lot about going through the process of having a challenging child. At some point actually at multiple points throughout that child's life, you have to grieve the loss of the child you thought you had so that you can really sink into the child that you do have. And at the beginning of this podcast, dave talked about the perfection of his daughter and that her she's choosing a hard journey, but it's her perfect journey and the love and respect that he has for her and the way that he can give her space and it is a beautiful thing in a very difficult situation. And so there's grief prior to a situation like this, and Dave has done that. I've watched him go through that grieving process of I thought these things for my child. I thought my child was going to go to college. I thought my child was going to do these things. I thought my child was going to have a more neurotypical experience in life and she's not, and so there's been that grieving.
Speaker 1:And then now you're at this grieving where there was grieving for your daughter and then grieving for this child that's your grandchild and what that? You're grieving the future. You're grieving the pain of the moment, and so it is very important for anyone out there listening when you're in this situation, you do have to sink into the feelings of it, all of the feelings of it, and just be present with it. It doesn't have to be with judgments, it doesn't. You don't have to judge the situation, just accepting the situation for what it is, a great place to start, because if you get caught in the judging of the situation as a parent, then you're going to be paralyzed and not be able to make decisions and not be able to get to the place that Dave got to. So that sinking into the emotions is really an important point.
Speaker 1:And, yeah, you had really 24, 48 hours of okay. We have to. This has to. We have to make this shift. We have to make this decision. You, as a parent, have to make the decision. You have to make the recommendation that was in the best interest of every soul involved, including that unborn child, and it was. There was no right or wrong. There was no right or wrong, there was no good, there was only hard in this situation. So you made that decision, you shared that with your daughter, and what happened after that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm going to fast forward a bit. I'm looking at the time here, but I had made up my mind that I was going to see, I was going to be there for her or for the process, but for her to, without all the steps needed to happen to move this towards, because it was still to me, it was still unclear, unsure whether or not she would actually still do it. She said you know I'm doing it because you said you disowned me If I did. That's harsh, you just hear it. That's no different than someone calling your name. And so I continued to keep her on course. And also, what happens in this situation is I, it's her decision. So in a way, you're marginalized and I've been taking her appointments and stuff and basically I'm still. Now I'm being painted as I don't want to do this. My dad says he'll disown me if I don't and you got to swallow that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they can think I'm the meanest son of a bitch in the world. I don't care. Yeah, Again, this is just some liberating in a way, and also challenging. I'm a what I don't. They're not raising that kid for 20 years I am.
Speaker 1:I'm not in there, it's not. It's nobody's life, but yours. You're the only one, you're like, the only thing you can control. All the times we've talked about controls and illusion, but the only thing you have control over is your own decision. In this situation, in any situation, but especially in this situation, you have control over your decision and that's it.
Speaker 2:And a couple of things that came to also lessons learned or whatever takeaways is that I I had to. I've been, I've set boundaries of Abby. I'm not going to let you use your trauma and your drama as hooks to get me in. I've killed that. Now I had to let go of that because this was all her trauma and all her drama and I was answering her calls and I was answering her tech. I was keeping a certain thing, but I was going to be there for her. And it's because you set these rules and you got to constantly, you got to hold to them until it's not time to hold to them anymore. And at this point, all this stuff, that the groundwork, which you're always still there, because she's still like my, she's still the voice in my ear saying, hey, watch what you're doing. And I said, hey, it's too late, it don't matter, all that matters is we got a goal, we have process and we'll deal with it's not, it's no longer important. So that was.
Speaker 2:And then I also found, when I was with her, I have this precious time where they're in the car going to and from and being with her appointments, and you want to do something, you want to somehow have them. The best thing I could do is literally listen to music and hold her hand. That was it. I did get to give up the idea of having any control over anything. I just could be there. I wasn't doing it, so she knew I loved her. I was there because I loved her and that was the most supportive, loving thing I could do while she's still. Whatever she's feeling, whatever she's doing just hold her hand and literally listen to the music she wants to listen to or talk about whatever the hell she wants to talk about or that. And it went through. And then it finally came time for the. This was just last Friday. This is a week ago.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's wrong.
Speaker 2:This time ago. Yeah, I was in the New Cosmical with her mom and in a way it got it just got. They say they call you the night before and let you know when it's going to be. And I it's.
Speaker 2:they say you got to be there 5.30 in the morning and I her mother just had knee surgery and really shouldn't be driving, can't be driving very much, and we agreed that I would come and pick them up. She drove away, picked them up and I drive them up there. But again, that's just another thing. We generally the three of us in a car is not a good idea. It hasn't happened, but all bets are off.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And the rules go out the window.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then this is where Dave Gold is, the drum king, who set this all up, decided to really script this out perfectly before I was born. So I am my. My vision is not what it was years ago. And I try not to drive at night and I try not to drive in the rain and I never drive at night in a rain. And I'm going to, I'm supposed to pick them up and look at the weather and it's, oh, it's supposed to be raining. And I get up at 4th, whatever, 4 o'clock and I'm looking and it's pouring out. There's no way. And I'm looking at the weather and it says it's going to stop, like exactly at the right moment, and I'm thinking, oh, the gods are smiling upon me and oh, yeah, it stops. I get in the car, I start driving, I'm 10 minutes out, boom, down comes the rain and it's pouring and I'm just doing what I got to do and we meet and I picked them up and I put them in the car and we start driving up, put them in the car. I get, when they get in the car at the meeting point, I start driving and all of us have driven three times where the only smart thing to do is pull off the road. It was one of these.
Speaker 2:When I got to the hospital, I talked about oh, the weather, how'd you get it? And it's just coming down and I've got my daughter next to me who has got her head in her hands, and I've got her mother in the back just shrieking at me, literally shrieking, screaming at me, and I'm thinking, oh my God, this is this would be hilarious. I was watching it in a movie, except I'm in the damn movie and I just thought she's saying pull off the road. I don't know how long it's going to, and I just think, no. First of all, this again where you have to trust. I went inside myself and I said am I going to be okay? And I got the voice that said yeah, you're going to be fine, you're going to freak out. Whatever you're going to feel, don't worry about it, you're going to be okay. And then I also just thought I can't take one more minute. We don't in this car. We just got to go and we got there and, of course, the rain stopped as soon as we got there, and then we just have this. We had two, two hours and 15 minutes of just sitting in that, you know, sitting in the pre-op and I won't go through all that was there. But yeah, there's a lot here.
Speaker 2:But one is to just have my daughter's medical history, real and imagined, laid out in front of me again, in front of all of us again.
Speaker 2:And then she had the procedure and I know it's antiseptic to call it that, but I don't know what else to call it and she, we had the termination and I was with her mom and it was, we were together, we were together and I still I know the boundaries still hold my boundaries there's a certain intimacy, there's a certain shared experience, there's a recognition. This is we've, we've, we've, we've, we've brought this child into the world, we brought this child into our lives and better parents and have done all this and we shared that while maintaining the boundaries. And I did my hardest breaks for her, my hardest breaks for her mom, yeah, cause, for I don't think I've got all the reasons it's harder than any mom, but I just know that it's easy. It's probably maybe a little bit easier for me to make the decisions I make, knowing that I got the rescuer there who's going to pick up the slide for better or for worse.
Speaker 1:And yeah.
Speaker 2:And then but here's a couple of things that these were two reasons, the two things that happened I want to end with that that were just show me that. Just show me how I don't want to say the work's never done, but just how there's an infinite capacity for love. I remember one of the monks down at McAnabee said only God is inexhaustible, and I just think only love is inexhaustible, but also the depth to which we can surrender and continue to just. I don't know, but we get to the. So it's done, she's out and she says and the doctor says she's got to go home with her mom. I got to watch her. I don't know if I told you this story or not.
Speaker 1:No, this is the first time I'm hearing this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and she's laughing at me because this is just so funny. Dave, here we go again. You slap yourself up the side of the head, Holy cow. And Abby says I'm, I won't go, I'm not going to go home with my mom. I got to go to my apartment, I won't go to my apartment. And the doctor's saying it's a bad idea. We know it's a bad idea. She's having a.
Speaker 2:She had a rough go of it because of all the things we talked about that made her pregnancy rich. She's also complicates this situation. And she said I'm not leaving until I'm not leaving unless I go home. And the doctor goes in. And a doctor comes out and said we need, she can't stay. She got to go. I've told her everything I can do and I'm in there. I'm in there trying to talk to her and explain to her and she's just adamant.
Speaker 2:And I went over into one of the little cubicles. It was empty cubicles and I just sat and I just had enough sense to say just let's just let go of this. But and eventually one of the nurses went in and they were able to talk to her, at least coming when you want, and I realized I was manipulated again. She manipulated it up to the very end. What is the one thing she has to do? I ain't leaving. And I reacted, just like I've been reacting for 22 years. So what do I do? Oh, my God, I gotta pull this string or that string. Do I bully or do I control or do I ignore? And I just laughed when I realized that it was. It's the same stuff still going on and I'm still hooked. I was still hooked. Unfortunately, there was a point where I did let go of it and then I thought about it like, hey, this is what you and I have talked about in this podcast and our lives and every other damn thing, Is if she's gonna go home and she's gonna bleed out.
Speaker 2:God, I hate that, but that's what can I do. I can't save her from herself. And so it was one last hurrah of thinking oh, you think you're cured.
Speaker 1:Yes, again, buddy, here it comes, here it comes from the side.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then if I can, and I just wanna just the one, I wanna make sure I get this one lasting and whatever. So the whole, we were there for seven hours the whole day, starting with the cloud burst and the shrieking and all the tension and sitting, just sitting and sitting and all, and then the end was just like we were all done and it was like, oh my God, there's one more if we're not leaving, and all that stuff. And I did what I always do I go to the gym, I come home, I walk the dogs, I just sit with it. And I was so raw, I was just totally raw, I was and I couldn't. It's almost I don't know what it's like, but it's like I couldn't take anything. I couldn't take any stimulation, I couldn't take any and I just went through the night and the next morning.
Speaker 2:Julie and I are weekends, we just languish and we just catch up. On the week, we lay in bed and we laugh and we joke and talk about things. And it was Saturday and I couldn't. I was so distraught and so overwrought is the? I was just overwrought, and then I just couldn't even sit in bed with my wife. Just any human being. There was just too much for me and I thought this is what I feel, and this is what I feel, just go with it, there's nothing wrong with it. And Julie, god bless that saint. I got two saints in my life and it's just. I'm gonna get you both beatified and in case there really is a Catholic God, then you'll both do it. But we'll cover that base just for Yox. But anyway, and no offense to the Catholics out there, hopefully, but anyway.
Speaker 2:And then she just said if that's how you feel, that's how you, that's I understand, that's fine. And if you gotta get up and run, cause I just had to run, I just like I just need to run out of my own skin. She said but I just want you to know that I'm here to give you a soft place to land. If you and it's your choice Do you want to soft place the land, I'm here. And it was like I literally was sitting on a. I could tip either way, I could move to the. If I move to the right, I'm going outside, I'm gonna walk the dog, I go to the left, I'm gonna go back into her arms. And I went back to that soft place to land and within five minutes I had, I just everything changed and what had happened was I no longer, I just. It was like this tremendous peace and the perfection. It was like it was over, it was done, and I felt ease and I felt peace, and not because I wanted to, just because I did.
Speaker 2:And in that moment, that's when I talked to Julie about this and we decided that we would, that I would do this because it was just such a transformative experience and bring it out. But I don't know what the point or takeaway is from the last thing is but that life will give us a soft place to land, we don't know where. For me, it was very. It's a human form. It's the creature I love more than anything on this planet. I like to get Abby 1A and 1B I love dearly and that was my soft place to land.
Speaker 2:But life, whatever it is, that's going on, there is a soft place to land, and so the hold, both to be able to hold what you feel. If I had been denying my feelings, this wouldn't have happened, if I hadn't literally just been so deeply entrenched with the fact that I was overwrought, I was done and I was willing to face into the fact that there was grace, there was beauty, there was perfection, all the things we talk about were here. I could hold that space, and when the space was offered I could lean into it and yeah, so I think that's pretty much as my story and I'm sticking to it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it just started to rain here. That's interesting. There were so many moments throughout this whole process that were just really important. But I think that the way that you've put the story out there is perfect and I think it's a good place to just let it be. And I agree with you I do think that there's always going to be a soft place to land, and I think that the only way we can find that soft place to land is to go in and really honor and respect where we are just being our bodies, being our experience, being our emotions, whatever they are.
Speaker 1:And I was talking to a dear friend of mine who's in California last night and we were talking about some young adults and how their struggles they just are what they are and she used the metaphor of waves that the waves come in, you ride the wave and then the sand settles before there's another wave. And that really hit me and I thought a lot about it. I thought about it last night, I thought about it again this morning. We were going to have this conversation. It's true, there's always a wave. There's not a time that there's not another wave coming in the ocean. There's always a wave, and sometimes they're really big waves. Sometimes they're tsunami waves and you just rode a tsunami, but at some point the sand settles and there's that soft place, there's that peace before the next wave comes in. And the next wave may be just a little guy, but there's still going to be churning of the sand and then the sand will settle again. And I think that is so appropriate for the parents who have extraordinary challenges in their lives. And I really honor you, dave, for riding the wave and for sinking into the soft place and allowing the sand to settle, sand settling right now, and the next wave will come.
Speaker 1:And the last point that I want to bring out is there was a moment you and I were talking on the phone and you said I thought I had released all the hopes, the dreams. I thought I'd let go of it, all that grieving process. I thought I'd let go of it all. But there was another layer and this was the event.
Speaker 1:This was the wave that gave you the opportunity to truly let go of your own expectations and hopes and dreams so that you can go back into that place of respecting your daughter, loving her and accepting that her journey is perfect and that she is going to make choices and we don't know what that's going to be. We don't know what it's going to look like and there's no way for you to know or predict that. And you've said that to me 100 times. I know that I can't predict. I know it's her choice, I know it's perfect. But here was that one last piece for you to let go of, and that was part of this wave too. It was a tsunami for sure for you over the last three weeks.
Speaker 2:And I want to make one. I'm so glad you brought that up because this was actually the tipping point that I wanted to share. It made me want to share this, and that is. It was about the dreams and we keep talking about. You can't ask your kid to do something. You can't authentically really ask your child to do anything or do yourself. That's why we're always talking about going in. Whatever it is you're holding on to, they're going to hold on to it.
Speaker 2:Try to fix them instead of going deeply in yourself and feeling this there and I might have I think I did mention this to you and it was a epiphany for me which is that Abby was holding on to a dream of she was going to have the family.
Speaker 2:We talked about detachment issues, her being there and having this big, and that's what she was, that's what she wanted, that's what she had in her head. And I was asking her, I wanted to let go of that dream and I said, wait a minute, I'm still holding on to my dream for her and can I ask her to let go of her dream about this perfect Walton family? She's a family mom, she's going to have Brady Bunch moment she's going to have, if I'm not willing to let go of my dream for her? And it was kept back to the self, this is again where it's back to the responsibility that you would ever and it really, yeah, explore that, but thank you for that too of just each your own cooking, and then you're setting the energetic place where they can let go of their own. Angie, thank you for all this. I just am filled with grateful for life, special grateful for you and for everyone, just here in it.
Speaker 2:Yes, all I can say.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you. Thank you for the raw, very vulnerable sharing for this episode of our podcast and I hope I know that this is going to touch people. I'm not even going to say I hope. I know this is going to touch people and we're both available. As we always say, we're both available to talk with you about your own individual situation. If you want to reach out to us, you can. All the information will be in the show notes and our next podcast is going to give a little insight into how we're going to expand and what that's going to look like. Look for the next episode coming out and we'll see where this takes us.
Speaker 2:We might even do it side by side while we're up there.
Speaker 1:We might. That's very possible. Yeah, actually in person.
Speaker 2:Thank you everyone for all your support, to everyone who's listening, and for your heart and for your love, and hold my daughter deeply in your prayers and in your heart as well.