SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to Surviving the Black Church, a podcast that sheds light and brings awareness to religious trauma and dismantles oppressive systems within the black church. Welcome back, everybody. This is season two of the Surviving the Black Church podcast. We are back. My name is Jonathan. And I am here with Nikki G. Hello, everyone. We missed you all. We did. We missed all of you. And we are back. And we are so excited to be on this broadcast with you all and to continue the work that we've been doing that started last season. Whether you have been listening to us from the very beginning, or if this is your first time joining us, we welcome you to this conversation. So, yes, so last season, it was our opening season. So we opened up the door to a lot of just tough, hard conversations about the black church, surviving the black church, whether it be with history, the culture, and the experiences that many of us have had to navigate in the churches that we were involved with. And the goal of it really was to have a space where we could have language to describe what our experiences were and a safe space for people to process their own, you know, our thoughts in our own language, in our own voice, um, and helping people to describe their experiences the way that we understand it know from the from the church, from the black church.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:36

And so the response to that is just nothing worth, is nothing short of humbling for us to do that work.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we've heard from so many of you through different mediums, just reaching out and saying, You're telling my story, my journey with spiritual abuse and religious trauma sounds so similar to what you all have described. Many were saying it was tough to listen to, but at the end of the day, it was beneficial because many have gone on to get uh help from different resources, therapeutic resources, and that, you know, brings elation to our soul because the whole point of what we're doing is to bring awareness of our experiences in the black community. We're bringing awareness of what it is like to be a religious trauma survivor. And so we're just so happy that people are listening and people are are taking the information and really using it to their benefit. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:32

And people are just responding well to to the content from the audio podcast. And I just think that it's just it's just really powerful just to hear people kind of resonating with the material and taking the material and saying, oh my gosh, like I'm so glad that you're doing this work and so glad that you all are around. So it's great. So we want to kind of talk about 2025 because that's the year that we are launching this podcast. And, you know, before we dive into what we plan on offering you all this season, um, we just want to take a moment to share some updates, some news to kind of jump us off before we get into the meat of it. And so as we are growing and evolving, um, this is our first time on YouTube. This is our first time all of you are seeing our faces, matching the voice with the face and coming away from the audio environment into video. And so we are on YouTube. Welcome to the YouTube community, and we are here. So, so this transition that we are making is really about how do we evolve these conversations to the next level? How do we bring this just not in the ear gate, but like, how do you see us in real time? And we're bringing on guests. We're gonna have incredible guests coming on this season, and we're gonna go there. We're gonna engage in some real raw, unfiltered discussion and dialogue. And for those who've been listening to us on the Spotify and the Apple Podcast, don't worry, you're still gonna be able to catch us on those platform, you know, in audio format because um we did put season one on YouTube. So that's you know, you wanted to go back to those uh episodes, you can.

SPEAKER_00 4:21

Right.

SPEAKER_02 4:22

And so we're here on YouTube, and so join us for this immersive experience that we're gonna be bringing to you to you. So now we're gonna start saying make sure that you subscribe to our YouTube channel, turn on your notifications so that you can get the the videos that we update with you all, and that way that you're not missing any of our deep dives, the candid moments, dynamic interactions that we have, and where we're bringing on guests that we love and respect and really believe that will add more value to the work that we're already doing. So there's that. So I'm gonna pass it over to Nikki if you have any other things you wanted to share with these changes or updates.

SPEAKER_00 5:06

For for laying out the format and the groundwork of where we're heading to, um, you know, as a surviving a black podcast, we're always thinking how can we evolve? How can we get the message out? How can we connect with survivors and let them know that there are resources that are starting to uh uh emerge for the experiences that they've had um and solutions and what does that look like to heal and to move forward, right? And when we were talking, we said, you know what, let's start bringing on some guests. I think the first season, you heard our voices, we laid a lot of the foundation, but there's something about the power of guests uh being able to either have the expertise to talk about the subject, or we're gonna have some survivor stories, some actual black religious trauma survivors for those who are allies to us to see that, you know, you may not have experienced religious trauma, but to see someone else who has maybe that will cause you to either be an ally, to expand your allyship, you know. And this topic, it's really touching to me because I understand when we look at the statistics, Jonathan and I have been combing over resources, combing over statistics, and we realize for the most part, the black experience in the religious trauma space, we are not represented. We've talked about that before, but we want to do something about it, right? And so having guests, having survivors realize wait a minute, there are black therapists that talk about this. Okay, where are they located? There are some coaches out there that talk about this. How can I get their information? Wait, there's somebody actually talking about there's a pastor that's actually talking about what it's like for a survivor to experience uh a religious abuse and religious trauma. And so we wanted the listeners, wanted to survivors to know that we're thinking about you, right? That this work is about you. It's about us. It's by us for us, so we can come together as a collective and heal, right? So we are just so excited to broach this space. And we really think that, you know, it's been beneficial for us to say, okay, we're gonna set up camp here on YouTube, you know, we're gonna find our residence, our home here. And because we realize that a lot of social media apps in this season of time are fickle, they're ever changing. Sometimes they shut down, sometimes you can't trust them, and we'll still be on the social media platforms, but this YouTube space will be able to do more for survivors to tap in and to find resources. And so we're just excited and we hope you come along for the journey. We hope that these YouTube videos, the visual, will be more accessible for you, easy to share with one another, easy to comment in real time after you see it. And we will be looking at the comments, we will be connecting with many of you in those comments. So please share. Please feel free to express yourself, even if it's something contrary to what we've shared. We understand that it is a very delicate uh situation to be a religious trauma survivor. There's so many different nuances and intersectionality from our experiences. So some things may be more covered than than most, and vice versa. And maybe you can add something to the topic that's gonna be beneficial to others. And so, you know, all we do ask though is in the comments, and we'll probably put it somewhere in the description is that let's be kind to one another, let's try not to proselytize, which means you may hear someone's story or you may hear something that's being discussed, and now you feel like you have the answer to everybody's perspective because you have a certain belief system that is great, but understand your belief system may have is working for you, but it may not work for others. So be sensitive to others' experiences and the modalities that others may choose post religious trauma, post-religious abuse. And the other thing is we're not here to engage in apologetics, right? Our core audience is survivors of religious trauma. It is not to defend the institution of the black church, the institution of the church in and of itself. Our heart posture is to have a place and space for survivors to be welcome, validated, educated, resourced, empowered. And so if your comment is counterproductive to that, we want to ask that you really think through what you may share in those comments. Okay. So if you are looking for spaces that will hold the bylaws and the belief systems of the black church, we ask that you would look elsewhere. We're not here to shut down the institution and tear it down because we understand its relevance according to people in our community, but we're here for the survivors. Um, and so I just wanted to kind of share all of that um as we get into this particular episode.

SPEAKER_02 10:18

Yeah, yeah. I I appreciate that. And, you know, like we did on the other podcast with that, is that this is in no way of shaming the black church. And I know that that's that was of a of a belief in season one, and we want to, you know, set the record straight that this is not about us like demonizing or coming after the church or anything of that nature. This is all this is all about creating spaces for survivors to share their voice and to be heard and to be seen. And as you, as you will hear on season two, there are survivors coming on to tell their stories and many people practitioners who work with survivors who help them with that storytelling. So then, you know, so that's so that's that thing. And so um, so we, you know, our efforts of now we have that kind of cleared out. We are expanding, we are evolving, and we are expanding our platform. So we do want to take a moment um to acknowledge another change um in our our our uh podcast. Um, so did you want to uh kind of talk about this or did you, you know, how do you want to approach this? Um, this next change. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:23

Sure. I uh um I don't mind sharing. We just want to let the listeners know season two will look a little different. Uh season one, we've had ourselves and Hugh Kelly, who was a tremendous force and an asset to the team for Surviving the Black Church podcast. We are uh moving to season two, and he will not be a part of season two. He is in his own journey doing things to support survivors, and we applaud him and we honor him, and we thank you for his contribution in season one. You know, we still sometimes get messages of how impactful some of his shares were and the different uh episodes we had in different spaces we've been on, collaborating with others. So we honor him. He'll still be part of our heart in this work to some degree, but myself and Jonathan will be moving forward in season two uh together as co-hosts. And we are just excited of what season two has to offer. So yeah, Jonathan, anything you wanted to share with that?

SPEAKER_02 12:26

Yeah, I appreciate I appreciate that sharing. Uh again, Hugh came in and offered a lot of um insights and contributions that really helped us to shape discussions around this topic. And we are just grateful um for what he brought to the table. I think that um as we move into this next chapter and carry this mission forward, um, it really is about how do we begin to evolve and change, where we can explore new ways to create spaces where, you know, there's so much complexity when it comes to our our experience as black people, especially spiritual black folks in the black church. And how can we continue to do this work of and carrying this mission forward of creating spaces where there's honesty, where there's compassion, where we can explore the nuances of this. And so, yes, Nikki and I are going to be moving forward as partners, as co-hosts of this of this platform. And so I am just so excited to collaborate with Nikki and work with her on bringing this work forward. So thank you, Nikki, for working with me on season two and looking forward to the listeners listening in on what we have for them, you know, in this season. And so yeah, so I can't wait to dive into all these important conversations together and navigate that.

SPEAKER_00 13:50

Yeah. Um, I think, you know, going forward with this particular episode, kind of a good spot for us to reintroduce ourselves. Yeah. We may have some new listeners that say, okay, I didn't even get to season one yet. I just see y'all faces, it popped up. Let me check y'all out. Are you all? You know, so I'll start off. I am a survivor of a narcissistic family uh system. I am also a five-time cult survivor, multiple cults, and different various relationships with narcissistic abuse as well. But presently, you know, as I was in my own journey of hearing and finding my path forward after all of that abuse and trauma, I eventually found my way to Clubhouse, which was an audio that emerged in the the height of the pandemic. And I went on there and I started to hear people talk about narcissistic abuse. I started to hear people talk about spiritual narcissists, and I started to share my story. I started to share some of the insight and the wisdom keys, if you will, that I had gleaned over my healing journey. Um, and then I realized wait a minute, I'm supposed to be doing this a little bit more. And so, you know, I started something called Spiritual Abuse and Cults on Clubhouse, and I ran that for about two and a half years. Um, started to get some training to get certified as a trauma recovery coach, a trauma recovery practitioner, and I do, you know, one-on-one coaching, group coaching, workshops, podcasts, and things of that nature. But when I was on social the social media app Clubhouse, I found myself connecting with a lot of black religious trauma survivors, some cult survivors, they're coming up and they're sharing their story. And this is where I met my colleague and friend Jonathan and Carrington. And I said, Hey, you know, what's more about your story? He shared his story with me and vice versa. And we realized we had the same heartbeat when it came to how come we're not represented as much? How come when we look through these resources that are available for spiritual abuse, religious trauma survivors, cult survivors, where our stories and our experiences being told? You know, in that process, that's also where we met Hugh Kelly. We started to talk, we started to convene, and we realized, you know what? Well, if there's no table built, maybe we should try to build the table ourselves. And this is how this is the origin story, if you will, of how Surviving the Black Church podcast came to be. And so, yes, so I am a coach, I'm a practitioner, I'm a survivor, and I'm a human being that does not like to see abuse and trauma happen at the hands of others. And what can we do on a uh a humanity level to try to bring resolution and recovery and healing for those who have found themselves um having these experiences? And so that's a little bit about me. I'm gonna pause so Jonathan can uh share more about himself.

SPEAKER_02 16:53

Yes. Thank you, Nikki, for for for that share. Hi, you two. My name is Jonathan. I am a licensed therapist. I'm also a survivor. Um, I'm a survivor of narcissistic abuse, but I'm also a survivor of spiritual abuse. And uh my journey started in uh 2015 when I was involved in the Pentecostal apostolic faith uh traditions, as many of you know, cogic, holiness is right, laying of hands and all that. So I was I was in the ministry, I was in a small ministry at that time, and uh I was going through a lot um during that time with family issues and all the things. So at the same time, I was also going back to school to get my master's degree in counseling, professional counseling, and I went to Liberty University, and for many of you know, that's a Christian university, and it was there when I began to really do research on the topic of trauma and abuse, and particularly with um trauma in religion and how spirituality abuses and hurts folks. And I was I was really deep in the research. And as I began to learn about religious trauma and spiritual abuse, that's what led me to reflect on my own experiences in the church. And I was like, wait a minute, something is not right because you know, I normalized a lot of what I was doing. And I was also a leader in the ministry as well. And so without going too deep into that, I left the church. I just said I'm out. I didn't tell anybody that I left, and I pursued my education in grad school and studied counseling, got the degree in 2019. So this was before um the pandemic. And that's in that next year, everything shut down. I started um working as a therapist. I was in the field. So I was doing my thing as a therapist, trying to get my hours and everything. And it wasn't until I think it was around like 2021, 2022, that's when I began to really go back to some of my origins in terms of the research that I was doing, religious trauma. And I had left it alone because I was so focused on the becoming a therapist and mental mental health practitioner and getting hours. And around that time, I was on Clubhouse and I met Nikki G. And um I at that time I was I left all that stuff behind. And then I heard her talking and I was like, oh my God, there's there's black people talking about religious trauma, spiritual abuse. Because most of the work that I was doing in grad school, it was mostly white people. So I just didn't make that connection. I never heard any black voices around this topic. And so that's what led me to be curious and reach out to Nikki. And, you know, one thing led to another. We would have phone conversations, and then we just decided hey, let's create a platform, let's create an opportunity so that we can start talking about our experiences, our stories, our our journeys. And that's what led to Surviving the Black Church podcast. And here we are with this podcast in season two. So the rest is history, and we're we're we're just building from there. And yeah, so that's just a little bit about me, and you know, and so that's where we are. And so in moving forward, now that you kind of know who we are, you two, we're we're we're engaging each other, and you know, uh this seat now we're gonna talk about this season. So let's talk about it. Um, we brought on an a group of guests, and we're gonna dig deep this time around. There are some problems in our community, black community, just with any community. I won't just say black community. There's some critical issues that we need to address, particularly with the black church. And we're gonna kind of go through a preview, and then I'll, you know, pause and then we'll can reflect. But I'll give you a preview of what we're gonna be exploring this season. So we're gonna talk about Christian nationalism. Yeah. We're gonna talk about it. We're gonna talk about Christian nationalism, and we're gonna talk about how Christian elastic, we're gonna explain what it is first, and then we're gonna talk about the impact that it's had on the black church. We're gonna address how, you know, and right now with this new administration, 2025 and beyond, for the next four years, um, we have this energy and this ideology that shapes the way that we interpret reality, the way that we see reality. It's pretty particularly how the church has been shaped by this ideology and how policies have been shaped by it, how practices have been shaped by it. So we're gonna talk about that, and we're gonna talk about bring on a pastor who's gonna come on and talk about their perspectives on how not just Christian nationalism, but how even white supremacy and racism and all the things have influenced the church historically and then kind of where the the present, current day of the church and where it's headed in the future. Yeah. So that's what we're going to talk about this season. We're also going to talk about um African spirituality. Yes, we're going to go there. African spirituality, African traditional religions. We're going to discuss the intersections of spirituality in the Black church in terms of how some of those spiritual practices that have been considered an abomination or considered to be immoral, sinful, are now being reclaimed by individuals in the Black community. We're also going to talk about the intersection of faith and trauma in the Black community, where, you know, many of us, whether it be historical trauma or intergenerational trauma or racial trauma, how does that impact our spiritual journey? And how does that impact how we navigate faith spaces that can heal us but also harm us? So we're going to talk about that. We're also going to talk about a very often untold experience that often is overlooked or minimized with the QT BIPOC experiences. And when I say QT BIPOC, I mean queer, trans, black, indigenous people of color and their experiences in the black church. Because we need to talk about that because these are the experiences that are often untold and the difficulty of having to navigate the complexities of you know being queer, but also being Christian. And what does that even look like in the complexities of your faith, your your identity, and your feeling of connection and belonging within community?

SPEAKER_00 23:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:39

Dickie, you have something you want to say or no, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

This is keep keep going. This is good.

SPEAKER_02 23:43

Yeah. So so I know I I presented a bulk to you. So now we're gonna, you know, we're also gonna be talking about mental health and the complicated relationship with the church culture. And, you know, I know mental health is, you know, is a highly contentious topic when it comes to the black church because of the whole, you know, stigma attached to mental health in in spiritual spaces. And we're gonna talk about how the black church has both supported but also hindered mental health awareness and healing.

SPEAKER_00 24:14

And and that particular episode is is so poignant for season two. I know we talked about it a little bit. We broached the topic in season one about the stigma uh, you know, in the black church, even the black community when it comes to mental health, but we actually have, you know, a mental health professional who will be joining us for that episode and really unpacking a lot of the stigma and talking about like, hey, how can we meet in the middle? What can we do? How can we educate ourselves as a people? How can we hold if we decide? How can we hold faith and mental health together? Can they be synonymous? Do they have to be separate? Is it one or the other? And oftentimes that's how it's been presented in the black church. If you're gonna have a relationship with God, if you're going to obey him and be connected to him and be one of his people, then you do not need anything outside of the four walls of the church. You know, going to a therapist is not necessary. Going to seek professional, even psych uh psychiatric uh care is not necessary. Everything is found in the church. We have the oil, we have the church mother, we have the altar, and we have deliverance ministry. Therefore, you don't need anything outside of that. And many, many, many of our people, including the leaders of the church, have been suffering in silence. Even the young adults and the young people have been suffering tremendously because we have compartmentalized mental health resources and our relationship and our faith. And so we're gonna get into the heavy conversation on that episode. That's one of my favorites of season two. So, yeah, we talked about it in season one, but we needed to come back around and continue the topic. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 26:07

Yes, yes, it's it's always good to have, you know, I'm a I'm a licensed professional, but it's good to have, you know, licensed professionals to speak to this topic because and it's also speak about it from a culturally competent perspective, because you know, what oftentimes in the conversations around mental health and the black church, it's it's the nuance of it is missing. And that's why we also, you know, just to go back to the Christian nationalism piece, you can't ignore that piece because it's all interconnected, right? Like it's all all of these episodes are connected to each other and gives us understanding and insight as to why we don't talk about mental health. It's like, okay, why don't we talk about mental health? Well, because you know, Christian nationalism or just racism in general teaches us to be separate and divided and not even really inclusive of our own health and well-being, you know? So we don't we don't have space to talk about that. And so how do we disrupt some of that that stuff? Yes, right?

SPEAKER_00 27:07

I love that word. Disruption. I think that it is an apropos word for where we are in this climate as a people, where we are in 2025. How do we disrupt the norms? And the norms are, you just said it. We don't talk about mental health issues, we don't talk about religion, we don't talk about politics. We will talk about race as a people because we can't get away from it, right? It affects us in every facet of society, whether people that are not black care to agree with that or not. We understand, you know, something happens, and the first question we ask, were they black? You know, so we can't get away from that. But there's those taboo topics, particularly religion and politics, that people say, Oh no, baby, we don't want to go there. You don't want to ruffle feathers. Guess what, y'all? We're not gonna have a choice in 2025 uh to not have these conversations. We have to have them. There are strategies that are necessary to pull together. There are resources that we need. We need healing as a people, and not just on the religious trauma perspective, but just in general. And so we're gonna do the heavy lifting, and we hope many will come alongside and also continue the conversation. If we want to look for liberation and healing, even within our own community, before we even look out in society within our own as a people, what does that look like? You can't heal what you don't acknowledge, and you can't acknowledge what you don't talk about. So that is what this podcast really is all about. Having the tough conversations, pulling back the layers, turning on the light, right? And again, we don't uh ascribe to be the know-it-alls of this topic because we are still learning, we are still healing, but we are hoping that people will hear these episodes, they will watch these episodes, and they would have conversations amongst themselves. They will have conversations within their family, they will look at they do faith, they do life, they they connect on the political front. And what does that look like for us as a people to move forward and liberation and healing? So yeah, I'm I'm excited.

SPEAKER_02 29:22

Yeah, me too. I'm so excited. And disruption is the operative word. Yeah, that's really what this is. How do we challenge the status quo? How do we disrupt, disrupt, disrupt? Uh-huh. That is that is so key for this year. And speaking of disruption, you know, I think that there is a lot of uh chatter around, you know, well, not even chatter, but just the conversation about, especially for men coming from the per perspectives of the ways in which we control our bodies and what we do with our bodies, and how we, you know, in terms of bodily autonomy and reproductive freedoms. And um, we have a guest coming on to talk about that, yeah, you know, in terms of that and purity culture and purity culture, you know, how it's being formed by you know Christian nationalism, what we are describing for the black church as holiness and sanctification culture, yeah, because there is a there is a cultural reference to it, and how does that politically, socially, psychologically impact women? How does it impact the QT BIPOC community, uh, individuals within that community? How does it impact men? How does it impact sexuality? How does it impact the way in which we express ourselves? And this is a topic that is very layered, as often because purity culture is often used as a tool for control, control and domination, particularly women. I mean, I know that there has been some recent news this year about just the ways that women deal with their reproductive capacities and in terms of what they do with their bodies, whether it be, you know, being shamed by men in the church for reproductive freedoms. If a woman is wants to give birth, she should be able to. But this kind of you know, doubling down on like you have to follow this religion in order to do this, this burden of maintaining the church's moral standard while being shamed for their bodies, being shamed for babies that are not even here yet, and they're in their sexual desires, QT BIPOC, LGBTQIA individuals facing greater challenges with the way that they express themselves as purity culture excludes their identity entirely, framing their very existence as sinful, as an abomination, as a natural, as um an entity that's going to hell and will be damned there for eternity. And so we're gonna be packing that and and how the culture has shaped one's belief systems, one's relationships with humans, and one's sense of self-worth.

SPEAKER_00 32:09

Yeah, yeah. And it's and it's a very necessary conversation. I think there has been an onslaught of vitriol towards women when it comes from a lot of religious culture, political culture, we're seeing what's happening even with our country. Um, and you know, we need to talk about this and what that looks like in the black culture. I mean, you hear if you are in any type of space where there's spiritual abuse, religious abuse, you know, religious trauma, or even cult recovery, you will hear the language of purity culture, patriarchy, things of that nature. But when we are inside of our own churches, that's not the terminology we often use. What we often hear is holiness is right. You know, sanctification before the Lord is right. We've heard the see for the purity culture in the non-black spaces, they've heard of people like Joshua Harris, who wrote the book I kissed dating goodbye. You know, we heard of the Duggar family, you know, they were used as an example of what that looked like. We've heard of the trad why. So that is real and it's true, but that often does not reflect our experiences. But within our culture, we've heard the Juanita binums and no more sheets. We've heard the TD Jakes talks about holiness and sanctification. We've heard that term use and abuse us individually and collectively, where people were ashamed to even feel like they had a connection with their creator if they weren't holy enough, if they weren't sanctified enough, if they didn't follow all the rules and regulations that a lot of leaders had set forth in the black church. To this day, there are many who are adults who have issues connecting sexually with their partner, or there's a lot of sexual trauma, or they're dealing with physical disorders in their body because of the religious trauma they experienced under the holiness and sanctification culture. And you know, the people and leaders who promoted a lot of this, they might have thought, well, this is what I learned, and so I'm just passing it off to the next generation. And many of them was right. But now we're looking at the statistics. There are people who are uh sexual uh sexuality uh in the area of sexuality and sexual uh therapists that actually work with survivors, and those who have been violated physically, sexually sometimes have the same symptoms as those who have been exposed to the purity culture or the holiness and sanctification culture. There was not physical sexual trauma, but there was still spiritual trauma centered around all of this. And so this is a topic that needs uh is totally underrated and it's not talked about enough in our spaces. And so we have a couple of um guests that will talk about this. And I hope this helps support many who have been who feel like they've been religiously abused in some of the black churches, especially the storefront churches, that use holiness and sanctification as a weapon, as a way to control behavior, as a way to control emotions, as a way to control what people think about themselves and what they think about their creators. And so I hope you stay tuned for these episodes, particularly this one. If you are a black woman, if you are a black man that says, Hey, I saw my sister go through a lot of this, I saw my mother have to undergo some of this. I myself was impacted with this culture that has been prominent in our spaces in the black church. So I'm definitely looking forward to that topic unveiling on YouTube and on our platforms as well.

SPEAKER_02 36:06

Yes, yes. And as you're listening to these, to these episodes, please be kind to yourself, be gentle with yourself. I know this is some heavy topics, and um it's a lot of things that we are bringing forward. And this is this is like decades, generations of trauma, of unpacking material. And uh it's important, you know, as you're listening to this episode, like if you feel like it's triggering, do what you need to do to walk away and come back to it, but don't, you know, don't give up on the content because this is this is here not to trigger you or activate you, but it's here to really help you to understand what this is and what we need to really be talking about.

SPEAKER_00 36:46

Can I can I speak to something about that? I'm glad you mentioned that, Jonathan. Um, we don't have an exclusive episode highlighting what you just shared, but we definitely want to give a disclaimer in this first episode, as I think we did in season one. Yeah, these topics are heavy, y'all. There's no way to get around it. There's so many complexities to our experience as black people and religious trauma. And so if we want to pull the curtain all the way back, there's not an opportunity all the time to make sure the furniture is all in place so it looks good when we pull the curtain back. There will be times that you may feel triggered. To be honest and vulnerable, there were times when Jonathan and myself were triggered in some of these recordings. Because there were times where we had to sit back and we ended an episode and we sat in silence because it was so profound. Or hit an area in us that we didn't realize was still there, right? But don't give up. We encourage you, don't give up because it may feel that way. We want to encourage you to avail yourself of grounding techniques when this does happen.

SPEAKER_01 38:00

Right?

SPEAKER_00 38:01

Learn to ground, learn to, as Jonathan says, when this happens and you feel like, oh, I feel something coming up, or I want to cry, cry, right? Or if you feel like, you know what, Jonathan, Nikki, oh, y'all hitting something, I gotta pause this and I just gotta go, you know, go to the gym and work this one out. You go to the gym and you work it out. Then you ponder on the last thing you heard and allow yourself and your body to tell you when it's ready to go further. This yeah, again, this isn't about us getting likes and hits and subscribers, although that's that's wonderful. I mean, but we want to educate, validate, and and empower, but we want you to have resources within yourself to know how to handle these conversations. I believe as a people, especially, we have been more prone to hush and keep it within our bodies and just keep going. And this is not just with religious trauma, y'all. We have been prone to allow our body to do what it does is to protect us when we start feeling uncomfortable, when we start feeling sometimes triggered, right? But sometimes that is the catalyst to get to the healing. Yeah, so great grounding techniques are going and taking a walk, getting out in nature, you know, and connecting with your breath and learning how to slow down and inhale, right? And then exhale until your body starts to feel more regulated. Sometimes getting a fidget spinner or something that you can hold. I have one myself, it's not a fidget spinner, but I love this. And I play with this a little bit. It helps me to stay in my body and regulate it when the conversation might be heavy. And some of this may be, you know, one-on-one ground techniques. We want to put this in the content because we do realize a lot of this is heavy material. But if we don't have these conversations, I feel like it is going to be hard for us to achieve the healing that we may not even realize we need. Yeah. If we want it, if we really want it individually and then collectively, if we want that ancient pride that was in our ancestors for freedom and liberation, we gotta talk, y'all. And as we talk, we regulate. And as we regulate, we learn. And as we learn, we come together. This is part of the secret sauce of what it looks like for us as a people to pull on our resources of old and present so we can move forward.

SPEAKER_01 40:45

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 40:45

So we just wanted to pause and really highlight the need of grounding as you engage with this content. So yeah, Jonathan, you wanna you wanna expound on that? No, I I love that.

SPEAKER_02 40:57

I love that you came from that from that resource space because I think sometimes when you know people can feel a bit apprehensive about what to do with the content, and I think you've given some resources and tools to level set and to help people to regulate and to bring them back to like a homeostasis of to back to the ground because you know it's it's so much information. And I know I know that people have reached out to us and and have said, Oh my goodness, like it's a lot, it's a lot, but it's it's okay. It's gonna be okay, you know, and you're going to be okay. And so I I appreciate you giving listeners that are listening to the content a way to operate with this material and not feel helpless or not feel like they haven't, there's nothing they can do, or powerless. That's what I was trying to say, in terms with the information that they're receiving. Hopefully that that helps someone to listen and offering you a proactive strategy to to navigate this material in a way that can help you to digest it more easily. So yeah. And with that, you know, um, I think we've kind of talked a lot about some of the professionals and the practitioners that we're bringing on. And what's most important and what we love about this season is that we're bringing on survivors, just like you, you know, people who lived it and endured it and overcame it. And, you know, we have, you know, from a black man's perspective, we have it from a black woman's perspective. And as they share their their their lived experiences being in the church or navigating the church and navigating their faith and their own belief system and the harm that they were experiencing in that in that environment and kind of how they navigated that, and you know, offering their their perspectives on on their healing and how how did they overcome? How did they survive and endure that environment? I think that's important for you all to listen to, just not just the professionals that are speaking from it's like people that can meet you where you are and that get it and that are in our community and are coming forward with their stories with so much courage. And so, um, and and helping people to find new paths of moving forward in that. So, yeah, so we have survivors coming on to our show as well.

SPEAKER_00 43:16

So yeah, yeah, I think I think that's a a great addition from season one as well to hear, you know, especially for those where they're just you know catching wind of this topic called religious trauma or spiritual abuse, and they're like, I I want to know more about it, you know, and we're so used to, you know, non-black survivors or non black experiences being centered, and now we have an opportunity where our experiences can can be shared. And there are differences, you know. We can't get away from that. You know, our culture is our culture, we love our culture, and so sometimes hearing it in the terminology that we are used to just Really, it's different than when we hear it in in other uh non-black spaces, you know, we're able to understand, but being able to relate are two different things. And so to hear from black survivors, I think is a great addition for season two. And I hope you you feel the same way when you hear their stories.

SPEAKER_02 44:19

Yeah, yes. And offering a roadmap, and and I think even just because we've pretty much kind of outlined to you what the season might look like. I think we've covered all the episodes, and you know, and and and even in some of the content exists out there right now on black people to the church and you know, the messaging around church, we've talked about that church hurt versus religious trauma in previous seasons, but just, you know, I think there's a lot of people out there, and I'm pretty sure that you all are listening and included in that number of just like, where do you go? Where do you go for help on this particular topic? Do you go seek a therapist? Do you see a coach? Do you go see your pastor? I mean, where do you go to heal this church hurt or this religious trauma in ways that the church has inflicted? I mean, we talk a lot about the topic, a lot about the problem, but what are the solutions? What are the strategies? What are the ways in which we can address some of these pain points that that we experience every day and we walk around and we're just like, I don't know where to go. There's a lot of people that are kind of lost or trying to figure out what to do. And some of us are in this place where we're trying to figure out, well, how do I honor the church and the culture and the significance of the church and the history of the church? But at the same time, I'm holding on to this pain and this wounding and trying to figure out how to hold members of the church accountable for the harms that they inflicted on me. Like, how do I, how can I hope hold both perspectives at the same time? And I think there's a lot of people who are experiencing that. And so maybe there's some insights that can be gained from these episodes and from these practitioners and survivors that can offer you that some answers or some clues to some of the questions that you might be asking. Or just even how do I create a space for myself, for everyone, to be seen, to be heard, to be understood, not to be invalidated, not to be dismissed, not to be, you know, shamed for talking about your your story and your experience and what you've been through and being told to pray about it and being told to, oh, that's just, you know, that's what just what they do, and that's just how it is, that's just how it is. And you know, and it's just that the sense of invalidation of the the marginalized and the pressed or those who've been silenced every time, and then you go back into your shell and you're holding on to this weight, and you don't know what to do with this weight and this feeling that that you feel burdened with. So you know, what spaces that can you go into where you can where you can receive that that healing that you need? That's that's where we are at. That's where we're at with this episode and you know, um, centering voices, centering lived experiences, centering our our culture and uh in the way in which we understand it, not in the way that they understand it, because that's just how they understand it, but how do we understand it in the way that we see it? So um, so yeah, so we have guests coming from all backgrounds, pastors, cultural practitioners, spiritualists, mental health professionals, survivors, activists, and many more people. And everybody is bringing a unique perspective to add to the table and you know, causing us to, you know, really critique and challenge and examine, but also really reflect on what it is that has happened to us and where do we go and how do we expand our understanding of things that that have occurred in our own life? Did you have anything that you wanted to add to that?

SPEAKER_00 47:54

Or no, I mean, like I I agree, you know, I hope that this season, just like the first season, really, you know, challenges people to to really look at how our belief systems has how we got them from? Are they actually ours? Did we get it from mama and grandma? Was it passed down? Nothing wrong with that, but is it yours? And how do I express my belief system, not just within, but also externally? How do I express that belief system when I'm with friends and family and co-workers and the greater society? You know, do I look to have a belief system that I feel I have to impose on everybody around me? And if they do not come up under the same belief system, then I scoff at them, then I judge them, then I, you know, proselytize, or can I have my own belief system and coexist with others that may not share the same perspective and belief system that I have? And I I say that from a place of that is what I used to do, y'all. So I will speak from a personal place first. I was not aware that I was even doing that when I was deep in the five cults, and all of the cults that I was a part of were steeped in majority of them, were steeped in Christian nationalism, Christian nationalism. Majority of them were steeped in uh a very uh uh authoritarian type of perspective and a belief system that was very dark-mooted. It was black or white, there was no gray. Oh, and so what I believed, I felt everybody in the planet should believe. Now, I can feel that way, I can think that way, but how was I conducting myself around others? So I judged, I looked at this person, I proselytized. And so a lot of what we talked about season one, and if you haven't heard it yet, is right there on YouTube. You can go back and listen and listen. But on season two, we will also be challenging. How do I hold a belief if this is my belief and I still resonate with it? How do I hold it if my colleague doesn't hold it, if my friends don't hold it, if my family doesn't hold it? How do I challenge others, you know, to love more and to look towards healing? How do I inspire? Even if that's my belief system, how do I do it where I honor the other person? Right. And I can't speak for every black uh religious space, but oftentimes that's not taught. It's our belief, and that's it. And everybody else has to come up under that. And so these episodes will challenge us to look at how we believe, what we believe, how we conduct ourselves, but it also will challenge us on things we might not have never uh thought about. You may say, well, I'm not connected to, you know, the the BIPOC community. I'm not connected with to the LGBTQ community, so why should I care about their experience? I encourage you to listen to the episodes. You may not orient that way, but that doesn't mean that you can't be humane and hear some of the trauma that that community is experiencing. You know, this is an opportunity for us to learn to grow and how to become more humane. And if you feel like you want to continue to hold your faith and your humanity at the same time, what does that look like? You know, this is also a time to actually see the different ways that people orient themselves post-religious trauma, post-religious abuse. You know, as we shared in season one, and we feel the same way in season two, there is no particular prescription or a template for people to uh follow and connect with post-religious trauma. Everybody may have their own perspective and their own prerogative to connect with what feels safe for them. So there may be some that come out of that and say, you know what? I don't know if I can connect with Christianity anymore. I'm in a place of the proverbial spiritual hallway where I don't know what I want to believe anymore. You are welcome to to connect with us if that's where you are. There may be some that say, you know what, Nikki and Jonathan, after what I've experienced and after some research, I have chosen to not affiliate with Christianity anymore. I've become an unbeliever, I have become an atheist. We welcome you into this space and we honor you right where you are. There are some that say, you know what, Nikki, organized religion is not for me anymore. However, I am curious about different forms of spirituality, particularly coming back to my roots and African spirituality. We welcome you to this space and we honor you for that particular lane you're in. So, again, like we said in the comments, this isn't a time to start to judge people because they may orient different than you. When a person has experienced religious abuse, spiritual abuse, religious trauma, safety is paramount. And some people may not find safety in the black church anymore, or the non-black church anymore, or in Christianity anymore, or in spirituality anymore, or in atheism, atheism anymore. Safety becomes paramount in order to move forward and recover, and it is not our place. Personally, it's not our place, as podcasters, it's not our place, as practitioners, it is our place to tell someone what lane they should be in. So we want to let you know we will have people on this uh season too that consider themselves a non-believer. And we want to hear curious, we want to hear how how they orient and how they got to that place. We're gonna have people, like Jonathan said, that are more in the African spirituality uh uh uh lane. We want to hear from them too. We have some that says, I've been through religious trauma, but I'm holding on to my faith and I am learning to deconstruct and reconstruct. We want to hear from you too. We want to create an atmosphere where atheists, prophet, apostle, lay member, deacon, African spiritualist, practitioner can all come and learn and coexist and honor each other, even if we totally don't believe what they believe. That's something I think we need to learn to practice as a people on a humanity standpoint, because we are not a monolith, and we need to really understand that. However, we understand that the statistics, and eight out of ten black Americans in this country identify as Christians. So we know the majority of our people affiliate with Christianity. We also realize there is a population that is growing and they're considered the nuns. N-O-N-E. And they consider that they do not affiliate with anything right now. They may be in a healing season of their life, there may be in a curios curiosity season in their life, there may be in an exploration season, and they prefer to not have labels. We honor you two, and you are welcome here. Yeah. Um, it's not about choosing to not affiliate with a label. This is not about choosing to not take a stand. This is about honoring that we are not a monolith and honoring that people can have different perspectives and different uh religious and spiritual affiliations that do not look like what we do and what we think and what we believe. Because I feel like there's been a lot of elitism, y'all, that has hit many of us in the church space, where if you don't believe what I believe, then I can't even talk to you. Hope we're the words you used earlier, Jonathan. Hope we disrupt disrupt that that has not been loving, that has not been beneficial to us as a people on a collective front. But if we're talking about us coexisting as a people, healing as a people, recovering as a people, we have to begin to understand that we all don't think and believe the same, but it's okay. Are you loving? Are you have a collective mindset to see our people advance? Are you humane? Can you see the plight of one of our people, even if it's not something that you affiliate with and honor them? This is something I had to learn to do on my recovery journey because I was so judgmental. I was so prideful and so elitist because I felt what I believed was the belief in the globe. And obviously, I I was further from the truth, coming to understanding now. But on the other side of recovery, I enjoy the fact that I love connecting with other people that may not think, believe, or behave the same way I do. And that's okay. I can see beauty in you. I can see your humanity first. Not your sin, not your label, not you know, your belief system. Can we see each other's humanity first? And I think that culminates a lot of what we are trying to do here with this podcast. Let us learn to be more humane and more loving because we are entering a time period right now and a season where we're gonna really need each other. Yo, we're gonna really need each other more than ever before, my in my personal opinion. So, you know, I just encourage you to avail yourself of these episodes. Run them if you need to share them. Um, you know, reach out to us, put a comment in the comment section. But yeah, we're just we're just glad to be here. We're glad to offer this resource. I don't know if this is the appropriate place to share this, but um for those that start listening to these episodes and say, wait a minute, wait a minute, y'all. Y'all are hitting us. We need to talk about this. Do y'all have any place where we can come together and talk about this? Well, after season one, that's what we heard from a lot of listeners. And we created a platform um where uh every second and fourth Thursday of the month, we meet on Meetup, and it is called uh Black Religious Trauma Recovery Support Group. And we get together at 7 p.m. Eastern Standard Time every second and fourth Thursday, and we talk about these topics. We have conversations, we make a space available for us to share and to know what it feels like to be around other survivors, not just through YouTube, not just through the DSPs, but actually, you know, online so we know that we're not alone in this recovery journey. So I say that to say, you know, welcome aboard, newcomers, new listeners, you know, those that have been with us since season one. We are so grateful for your support. And we're excited to see what this season unlocks for you. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 59:02

Yeah, and we we can we're gonna drop uh that's the thing. If you need to know where these resources are, we're gonna drop it in the description of the YouTube episode so that you all can access it so it it can be easy for you to do that. So we'll do that for you all. But yeah, I mean we're like Nikki said, it's it's it's about creating a space where we can liberate ourselves. We can we can be liberated, we can express ourselves freely without shame or judgment and heal. You know, Nikki is very passionate. She has passionate energy, and all of us, we got we got that passion. We we got that inside of us, and it needs to be revealed. It's not about it's not about looking to this person and that person and tearing each other down. It's about what is what's already living inside of us on the inside? What are we uncovering? What is our own individual truths within ourselves? And are we acknowledging that? Are we doing the work to find clarity and understanding within that? What is our inner voice? What is what is it that is aligning us to the God of our understanding? And for us to be in spaces within ourselves, but with each other where we can thrive beyond the walls of this church, the walls of the proverbial church, the walls of the physical church, and that we can continue to express ourselves in this way. So, believers, non-believers, whoever, black people on the planet, how do we express? How do we express ourselves that that are independent of the oppressor, the the white supremacist, the forces coming against us that teaches us that we shouldn't express ourselves, that teaches us that we shouldn't be who we are, and that we shouldn't be in connection to that ancestral power that lives inside of all of us, that has always been there, you know, since the very beginning. So it's it's a space for us, by us, for us. And so if you're deconstructing, if you're questioning, if you're healing, even if you're just curious about it, this is a space for you. And so as we come to the conclusion of this episode, we're gonna wrap up here. And thank you so much for listening. Make sure you hit that subscribe button, turn on your notifications, join us, be part of this community of transformation and healing. You know, so like I said, this is an honest space, and we can uncover all these things. And again, this is surviving the black church season two. Let's get into it. Let's go, let's go, let's go. So, yes, we appreciate you all, and thank you so much for listening.