Discover the four traits that drive a person into leadership in this episode with Michael McCloskey. We'll be sharing tools to assess your leadership style, your effectiveness as a leader, and a job model that boosts the people side of a business. So, tune in to help your team grow in their genius zone!
Key takeaways to listen for
About Michael McCloskey
Mike McCloskey Founder and CEO of HumanLytics Team. As the former VP of operations and Director of Learning for globally recognized companies, he’s been fortunate enough to be a part of amazing teams over the years.
Trust, collaboration, and that unstoppable feeling - it’s magic. So, how do you design a winning team to drive results? Is it more about raw talent or chemistry? How do you scale that design across the organization so productivity soars and your culture thrives? He loves teaching and sharing the talent optimizing skills and assessments that helps his clients achieve their strategic plans.
Connect with Michael
Connect With Us
Master your context with real results leadership training!
To learn more, visit our website at www.greatsummit.com.
For tax, bookkeeping, or accounting help, contact Dr. Nate’s team at www.theincometaxcenter.com or send an email to info@theincometaxcenter.com.
Follow Dr. Nate on His Social Media
Discover the four traits that drive a person into leadership in this episode with Michael McCloskey. We'll be sharing tools to assess your leadership style, your effectiveness as a leader, and a job model that boosts the people side of a business. So, tune in to help your team grow in their genius zone!
Key takeaways to listen for
About Michael McCloskey
Mike McCloskey Founder and CEO of HumanLytics Team. As the former VP of operations and Director of Learning for globally recognized companies, he’s been fortunate enough to be a part of amazing teams over the years.
Trust, collaboration, and that unstoppable feeling - it’s magic. So, how do you design a winning team to drive results? Is it more about raw talent or chemistry? How do you scale that design across the organization so productivity soars and your culture thrives? He loves teaching and sharing the talent optimizing skills and assessments that helps his clients achieve their strategic plans.
Connect with Michael
Connect With Us
Master your context with real results leadership training!
To learn more, visit our website at www.greatsummit.com.
For tax, bookkeeping, or accounting help, contact Dr. Nate’s team at www.theincometaxcenter.com or send an email to info@theincometaxcenter.com.
Follow Dr. Nate on His Social Media
[00:00:00] Michael McCloskey
A lot of times, people go into a career at 19, 20, 21, 22, and they think that's where they're gonna be for the rest of their life. So they go from one company to the next company, to the next company doing the exact same job, and they realize later on, Well, it just doesn't fit in my drives. It's not the culture, it's not the company necessarily. It's just what am I doing here?
[00:00:22] Dr. Nate Salah
On this episode of A Call to Leadership, we wonder sometimes, do we know ourselves. Do we know our drives? Do we know what motivates us and how to succeed? It's a huge question because unless we truly unlock our own understanding of ourselves, sometimes we will just drift through life. We won't be able to identify how we can thrive.
[00:00:45]
So I've invited an expert in this area, Mike McCloskey, who understands the human persona and the drive so well that he leads a team to help people uncover their motives, their drives, and help them to release their greatest potential possible. I can't wait for you to listen in my friend. I'm Dr. Nate Salah, and this is A Call to Leadership.
[00:01:19]
Mike McCloskey. So good to have you. Thank you very much. The program today, Appreciate it for flying in just for me.
[00:01:16] Michael McCloskey
I did, absolutely. Yeah. I would do it again too. Just call me whenever you want. Just, call you, When you gonna hang out? I'm here for you.
[00:01:22] Dr. Nate Salah
3:30 AM Just get up. That's right. Out on an airplane for me.
[00:01:25]
Exactly. No, man. I'm thrilled to have you on the show today and we've had lots of great conversations around leadership, around different aspects of how we can be effective leaders. Right. And you are, I believe, on the front line of that mission and especially what you've done for my team, my leadership development group, of course, you know, been in my mastermind events and help my team right to do some amazing things and really unpack some essentials on effective leadership.
[00:02:03]
And today I wanna spend time talking about one of the most critical areas of leadership. Communication. Yes. And funny story, as we're getting ready to prepare for this episode, seems like my devices aren't communicating, my camera and my audio. We've probably spent, what, about 15, 20 minutes in here?
[00:02:08]
It's all good. Yeah, it's all good. I think what it illustrates is when there is a lack of communication, you have a lack of progress. Right. And I wanna read a couple of statistics to you. Sure. So this is a workplace communication statistics. This is 2022. This is very recent. All right. Workplace communication statistics show that 86% of employees and executives cite the lack of effective collaboration and communication as the main causes for workplace failures.
[00:02:56]
I mean, it's a huge number. Teams, on the other hand, teams who effectively communicate may increase their productivity by as much as 25%. I mean, it's huge. So productivity increases, engagement increases, retention increases, trust facilitation. At the same time. The flip side of that is devastating.
[00:03:20]
And so that really like brings it home. It's like, how well are we communicating? And the short answer is, if we examine our own environments, and not just business, right? In our families, in our communities, in our own lives, we know that there's opportunities that we're not reaching our full potential in this area.
[00:03:41]
You've discovered some really critical aspects of how we do this, and I think as our audience begins to listen, they're gonna be like, Oh yeah, totally me. And not only that, but these are what I would consider, and I use this term very with trepidation, timeless because, right? You think that word is 0ften misused. That's right. But it is in fact timeless.
[00:04:06] Michael McCloskey
You know, it's interesting. First of all, those statistics are very shocking, right? I mean, it's, they're devastating numbers to business and it's just such an easy fix. You know, just having communication. You know, the funny thing is, my wife and I have been married for 32 years coming up this fall.
[00:04:21]
And you know, when we speak to couples that have been married 50, 60 years, you know, they're all kind of the same thing. You know, they say the same thing. Communication is the key. I think the surveys have been out for a long time, and they always say things like, Well, the, you know, number one and number two reasons for most financial, or for most,you know, marital stress is financial and lack of communication.
[00:04:41]
And when you see what it does, you know, a marriage or a relationship with only two people. Imagine if you've got a company with 50, 60, or 60,000 people. It almost never gets filtered down to the right levels of, you know, in the industry where in the business you're in. If it doesn't start well at the top, that's for sure.Right. Every time. Yeah. Yeah. Speaking of leadership.
[00:05:01] Dr. Nate Salah
No. I mean, yeah, it's, and I think, we'll, once we get to the family side of the conversation, I'm sure we have both have stories to tell for sure. So in an organization when we start a business or when we're a part of an organization, you know, one of the first things that we want to communicate is our goals, right?
[00:05:22]
Our mission, obviously what we're hoping to accomplish, our vision long range, and of course, our values, right? What's important, and that is often a first starting place that organizations don't get right and they don't get right. And if they do, they almost seem, platonic, disingenuine, and maybe even sort of just SOP, right?
[00:05:50] Michael McCloskey
That's exactly right.
[00:05:52] Dr. Nate Salah
Yeah. Do you see that when you're looking at, you know, helping companies because, you work with a lot of different organizations?
[00:05:59] Michael McCloskey
We do, we do. Well, it's interesting because most of the time when we work with organizations, one of the things that we, we help them with is understanding themselves and the people they work with and who they're attracting towards their company.
[00:06:12]
And it's funny because one of the things we talk about is core values, mission, you know, statements, things like that. And oftentimes, you know, one of my questions is, you know, how long did it take you to put the core values together? And most companies say, Oh, I don't know, you know, 30 minutes or so. We kind of threw a bunch of things together to kinda have a list.
[00:06:33]
It's a checklist, more so than it really is, you know, a core values model that you want to follow. And so people get really confused when they, you know, go to work with a company or hear about a company, cuz we know what they say and what they do are completely different things, so it's very confusing.
[00:06:49] Dr. Nate Salah
It is, it is confusing. And that starts from the top down, right? So if you're listening and you are in a position of leadership, or you desire to be in a position of leadership, right? Your purpose is, it can't be understated, right? How you first articulate that in your mind and then you get it out of your head, you put it on paper.
[00:07:12]
But not only the what, but, even more importantly, the why, right? And then, of course, the how, right? And the Y has been around for many, many, many years, of course, popularized in probably the last 10 or 15 years by a number of authors and speakers for sure. And. . This is our justification for existence now.
[00:07:32]
That's how important the aspect of our mission and our purpose is in an organization. And we're not just talking about business organizations. Again, a family organization, a community organization. This is what connects us to others as we begin to go down this journey. And if we can't articulate that in a way that's compelling, not only to them but especially to us.
[00:07:55]
Because people are, they see through inauthenticity, right? They see through, Oh yeah. It's just part of, you know, what you're supposed to do, right? Because it's just part of what you say this business is about, but it's not necessarily who you are, what you want to accomplish.
[00:08:15] Michael McCloskey
The funny thing about that is, You know, every company that we work with has some set of core values, but the people that have the highest turnover are always the ones that don't follow them.
[00:08:26]
They have no purpose, really. They're just, you know, kind of just driven to just be busy. And we find that when people have kind of, they feel this higher calling to be a part of something that's bigger than themselves, you know, bigger than maybe a division or a department, something where they really feel like they're making an impact in the world, regardless of what that looks like to you.
[00:08:48]
Do, you know, an impact can be very different for different people. They stay longer, they work harder, they work smarter, uh, in order to make things happen. And, uh, you're right, without those where they're, you're really living them out, people don't really know what they're working for or who they're working with, and it makes it just, you know, extremely difficult to, you know, kinda get people to be bought into your vision. If those aren't clear, nothing's really clear, unfortunately. Yeah.
[00:09:11] Dr. Nate Salah
Yeah. And that's it. That's it. Clarity. Cause clarity's power. Right? And so if we can communicate with clarity, what we believe, right? And why we do what we do. And then those who share in that vision in reaching that vision will desire to be a part of what I would consider a movement.
[00:09:33]
And people would, somebody listening may say, You know, it seems a little too flowery. It seems like, okay, if I work at McDonald's, is it really a bigger mission of movement? And there's a compelling argument for that unless the McDonald's corporation instills some core values that resonate with the human condition.
[00:10:00]
Right. And I think that's where the, I think that's where when we begin to communicate in a way that affects the human condition in a way that compels it to progress. That's where that bond really begins to solidify. Now you say, Well, what if people don't care about the human condition? Right? I mean, this is, this is a reality.
[00:10:20]
Sure. Question is, what kind of people do you want on your team? And I think that comes back to you, right, to knowing who you are before you even begin to make this communication. That's right. Decisions. That's right. You spent a lot of time in this space, a lot of time in this space because you work with an assessment tool, right?
[00:10:44]
The survey, the predictive index. Right. And I was newly introduced to it when you and I started working together because there's all
[00:10:51] Michael McCloskey
I'll never forget that day. You were like, Oh my gosh, this is crazy.
[00:10:54] Dr. Nate Salah
Indeed. Yeah. Because working in my research, especially the leader space and a number of different, I mean, many, many different, I mean, there's so many instruments, right, as you know, and becoming introduced to this instrument and the ease of the instrument, yet the depth of data that you garner through the instrument, and then being able to take a look and see, wow, you know, so these are some of my behavior patterns. These are some of my blind spots. And then not only me but then having the predictive index in a relationship guide with those who I work with. It's very telling,
[00:11:35] Michael McCloskey
Extremely telling, for sure. You know, the funny thing is, you know, we kinda started off this conversation with some core values and mission statements and things like that, but you know, to your point about clear, concise communication, if you don't understand yourself, you don't understand how to communicate to others. I mean, that's just what it comes down to.
[00:11:51]
I know some incredibly brilliant, borderline genius, you know, business owners that have an incredible vision in their mind and they cannot share it to save their life. Right? And so the interesting thing is, you know, how do you understand yourself so well and how you are not only perceived by others, but you know how well you communicate with others and what styles you like to use.
[00:12:12]
And you know, when you understand those same styles of people around you and how they like to receive communication, it makes a huge, huge difference. You know, under. What's effective and what's not effective in communication is just as important as just communicating. So, for example, I know people that you know, have a lot of formality, for example, as one of the pieces on the predictive index.
[00:12:36]
They have a very strong need for rules and structure and understanding how things came to be and why we're changing things and so on. And so I'm a much more lower scaled, you know, detailed person. And so I can share kind of big picture, big vision type things, but not always all the details. And if I wanna persuade a couple of people on my team, you know, that have a higher formality than me, I've got to slow my pace down enough to ensure that they are bought into the bigger picture and the why behind what we're doing, where we were, where we're going, what we'd like to be, and uh, Those are the things that are extremely important to them.
[00:13:12]
Other people, they're just like, Hey, send me some bullet points. I don't really care. I'm all in any way. You know? And uh, so understanding the different dynamics of the people on your team makes a huge difference. We look at it that like a ripple effect. You know, we can be that pebble in that pond where we kind of make a little splash, but what we don't understand is how that continuously ripples on long after that initial conversation is done.
[00:13:35]
Like skipping a stone, so to speak. Right. And, when you start to understand that, then you are much more cautious about what you say and how you say it to different people.
[00:13:43] Dr. Nate Salah
Indeed. It's almost like, where have you been all my life? That's right. Right. And in some ways we're talking about self-awareness, right?
[00:13:49]
Which is another, is another mechanism of clarity, right? It reminds me of a story, and some of our listeners may have heard the story In a previous episode when I was just getting started in business, I was 21 years old, I had my little check cashing booth in. North City, St. Louis. I have my two-inch bulletproof glass. I had my best friends with me, Mr. Smith and Mr. Wesson at all times. It was a rough area, right.
[00:14:12] Michael McCloskey
Good friends to have in an area like that. Yeah.
[00:14:13] Dr. Nate Salah
Good friends to have. Yeah, Correct. I hired my, one of my best buddies to work with me as my first employee. And you know, we did like the lotto and the money orders and of course the cash checks and this is where I learned the tax trade and things like that.
[00:14:27]
But anyhow, so we did all that and I remember that, he had some ideas about how to make the business, what he thought was better, and I thought I was being hot stuff. And so I said something to him that I thought was cool and funny. It was this. I don't pay you to think. I pay you to work. Oh,
[00:14:48] Michael McCloskey
That went over, well
[00:14:49] Dr. Nate Salah
That was, it was, it was probably my finest, I'm sure. My finest hour in my
[00:14:56] Michael McCloskey
Early 21-year-old leadership skills.
[00:14:58] Dr. Nate Salah
Yeah. Yeah. That's one of my coming, coming soon. Right. To a Barnes and Noble near you. And he just had to look on his face like, Okay. And that was like, and I was like, What did I just do? Went over like a lead balloon. Yeah. Yeah. And because he wanted, he desired to contribute.
[00:15:18]
Sure. And I desired power and control. And of course I was such a neophyte. I mean, I was, And if you're listening and you're 21 and or if you're a young entrepreneur or a new entrepreneur and you're like, Oh, I've, I've made those kind of blunders. You're not alone.
[00:15:36] Michael McCloskey
Or if you're listening in your 85 and you're still making those wonders, that's a You're still not, that's a possibility as well.
[00:15:43] Dr. Nate Salah
Or anywhere in between. Right, Right. And looking back on that, it reminds me of the possibilities when I can have a greater level of self-awareness through understanding where I had my, again, my blinders on when I was in that stage, and even today, right.
[00:16:04]
I mean, it continues to flow forward, but when I began to explore these instruments and assessments and beginning to, you know, examine myself, and of course the old Latin phrase, no, JT Ipso, know thy self. It helped me to better communicate with those in my arena. So then I could say, you know, now of course that's changed a lot.
[00:16:26]
Now I've got, you know, centralized command. Centralized control. Of course, we're talking 27 years later. A lot can happen almost a decades. Right. But to your point, is the ability to have such an acuity of effectiveness when we can simply begin to explore and discover. Where we stand in different areas of our own behavior patterns.
[00:16:53]
So formality is one of them. I like that you brought that up because some people are really formal, right? Some people are super informal and some people are anywhere in between. That's exactly right. Does that change over time?
[00:17:04] Michael McCloskey
It can, generally speaking, something pretty massive has to happen in your life.
[00:17:09]
Some big life-changing experience, sometimes even a traumatic, you know, not so positive experience. But all the research we've done, really on this since 1955, even prior to me even, you know, participating in this shows that it's, if it does change, if these drives change in you, it's about to every 12 to 15 years at the most.
[00:17:31]
So overall they don't change through time, but if something like that happens pretty, you know, hectic in your life, something pretty massive changes in your life. So for example, I used to have. So I've got a very high extroversion. That's one of the other pieces that we look at quite a bit. Pretty high extroversion.
[00:17:47]
No strangers for me at all. I can talk to anybody. And one of the things is I also believe at one point I had a much higher dominance. And in business that's a drive to solve problems and to kind of just be in control of people, projects, things like that. And my dad passed away quite a long time ago and he was kind of a workaholic.
[00:18:05]
And that's kind of how I felt like I was kind of going down that same path and you know, drive, drive, drive, drive, drive, you know, wanted to be in charge of everything. Go out and conquer the world, you know how that goes. Right? Yeah. And when he passed away, the company that he worked for replaced him in about a second.
[00:18:21]
And then they were actually a moving company when he was in the Army. He was in charge of all transportation for the military. And then so he went to retire and worked for a big van lines that's very well known nationally, internationally, and was in charge of all their fleet. And they replaced him in about a day.
[00:18:39]
And then also, you know, didn't help my mom with her move when she was downsizing. And that just, you know, aggravated the mess outta me. And so ever since then, I've moved my extroversion up even higher. And I believe that was a big change for me to where I connected with people a lot more and spent a little bit less time focusing on the business side of business and spend a lot more time on the people side of the business.
[00:19:00]
So between that and several other things, you know, that have just naturally come through, you know, life experiences, I think that made a big, big shift in the way I thought, you know, at the time, you know, through my mid twenties, you know, early thirties to now at 52, you know, those kind of experiences are the things that could really change your whole perspective on life that make a big difference. They can change those things, so,
[00:19:23] Dr. Nate Salah
Understood. Yeah, I agree. And it's interesting that you bring that up because when you're talking about extroversion versus I suppose introversion, right? And along that spectrum,
[00:19:36] Michael McCloskey
Everybody's extroverted. It just depends on who your audience is. That's all .
[00:19:39] Dr. Nate Salah
Agreed. Yeah. I tend to look at it as extroversion introverts have a very similar pattern in different context.
[00:19:48]
Right. And so an extrovert will see a room full of people and in order to feel comfort in that arena, will begin to work the room. That's right, right.
[00:19:58] Michael McCloskey
And work the room with such a good phrase for an extrovert, right?
[00:20:01] Dr. Nate Salah
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. An introvert. Cuz my wife's an introvert and I'm, I have a high extrover, as sure as you do.
[00:20:08]
And where an introvert will see a room and will wait to secure a perimeter before they feel safe enough. So true work, whatever aspect of the room they desire, right? Both the introvert and the extrovert have the same goal to secure this perimeter. They simply just do it in a different way. Right. And which brings me to my next question, because someone listening might be saying, Okay, well maybe I think that I'm an ineffective communicator because I'm not nearly as, quote, I'm air quoting outgoing as someone else, and I think I know where you're gonna go with this.
[00:20:45]
Because someone might say, Well, is it good or bad? Is it effective or ineffective to be anywhere on the spectrum where your response might be ? Depends, Right? Correct. On the context, possibly in a situation and the individuals
[00:21:00] Michael McCloskey
That's right, a hundred percent their, their knowledge of the, whatever there is they want to talk about, you know, their comfort level with, you know, are they known a little bit?
[00:21:08]
Are they coworkers or are they complete strangers? You know, a lot of that has to do with it. You know, it's funny, my wife is also much more reserved and, so we go, my wife is a physician, and we go to different functions throughout the year where there are a lot of physicians around and they're standing around in circles talking every once in a while and she'll look at me and she'll go, Okay, go do your thing.
[00:21:26]
Get the conversation started, you know, kinda get me involved in a circle. That's right. Kinda set it up on a tee for me. And then, once I kind of get everybody, you know, talking and interactive, then she chimes in with the one or two people. She'd like to have that conversation with. She's most effective, to your point, You know, with smaller groups, she feels like, you know, she feels less flustered.
[00:21:45]
She feels like she can concentrate and she's just not there to kind of generically, you know, carry a conversation about nothing specific, you know, where I'm much more comfortable, you know, just kinda shooting the breeze, if you will. And she's not like that. If there's not a certain topic, then it's not worth her time. You know.
[00:22:03] Dr. Nate Salah
Our spouse would probably get along than,
[00:22:05] Michael McCloskey
Oh, they'd love each other a lot, I'm sure. It sounds like, for sure. Yeah. But you're right, it's a, when you are, there is no right or wrong when it comes to these different drives that we're, we're gonna talk to today. There's no right or wrong, it's just how you maximize your own natural strengths and understand your audience to get them to see the picture you're trying to paint for them.
[00:22:23]
That's really all it is. So you can bring a lot of energy, you can bring a lot of hype, you can do all that kind of stuff, or you can be very reserved. You know, it's all about content and understanding that it's resonating with the person you're delivering to. That's more important than anything.
[00:22:37] Dr. Nate Salah
Yeah. And you brought up something I think that is critical that it's important to do a little bit of strategic planning on how you desire to impact through communication. Right. And then bring in the necessary resources, i.e. if it's human capital people. to support you in areas that you know will be necessary to reach that certain outcome.
[00:23:01]
i.e. That's right. You and your spouse work great. Kinda way. Same exact phenomenon with me and my spouse. Yeah. Almost identical. Nate, you go out, you do what you do. I'll come in, and I'll do what I do. Right. But it makes for a great team. That's right. And I think this is a great segue to really talk about then how could I ever possibly hope to accomplish anything in communicating effectively unless I understood where each member of my team had their greatest drives. Right. And I want to, I wanna be really careful not to use those terms, strengths or weaknesses. Sure. They're simply just drives.
[00:23:37] Michael McCloskey
That's exactly right. Right. You know, it's funny because we work with so many different companies. I mean, from call centers to hospitals, to, I mean, every, everywhere, everywhere in between, right?
[00:23:48]
And almost a hundred percent of the time, we find leaders, coach, train, and develop a certain group of people, let's say salespeople, for example, all the same way. All the conversations are based on their title, not based on the individual. And so, salespeople can be different, you know, physicians can be different.
[00:24:07]
You know, frontline, call center people can be very, very different. They all have common traits, you know, to a certain extent. There are some things that drive, you know, them more towards different, you know, areas of, you know, work or, you know, positions sometimes. You know, you can't do that.
[00:24:22]
Everybody has to be, you know, spoken to as an individual and that's very difficult for a lot of leaders to do. And take just a moment to understand how that person is driven and what drives them. And when we say drives, we don't mean, you know, fortune and fame and you know, that kind of drives, but it's really about, you know, how you like to do your work.
[00:24:41]
That's kinda what we look at it as. And so there are four things we've kind of touched on formality a little bit and on extroversion a little bit. And dominance is the third. And that is really how much control you like to have over solving problems, making sure that you're part of the solution.
[00:24:58]
Some people are a little bit more agreeable, right? And some people are a little bit more collaborative. They like to work together as a team to come up with ideas. And tho those are all great things as well. There's no right or wrong, it just tells me your leadership style. And then the, the last one is patience, which we'll talk about in a little bit as well.
[00:25:15] Dr. Nate Salah
Yeah, and here's the other factor is that as we even unpack some of these drives and how they help us to understand how to better communicate, right, you've got different titles, if you will, or labels for each set of drives that fit into a certain classification, right? Right. And they're interesting names, right?
[00:25:36]
You've got Mavericks, right? Captains, right? Ventures, that's right.
[00:25:41] Michael McCloskey
Artisan persuaders. All kinds. What? What's yours? Persuader.
[00:25:44] Dr. Nate Salah
You're a persuader. I am. No surprise. Right. So tell me some of the factors of the behavior, patterns, the drives, if you will. Sure. Of persuader.
[00:25:54] Michael McCloskey
So, one is a little bit higher dominance than the average person on the planet.
[00:25:59]
And so we can tell that from this, very quick assessment that we do. The irony of this assessment is there's no questions at all. It's like six minutes long. It's incredibly easy. Always a persuader's got a much higher extroversion than the average, and that's normally the strongest most. You know, the drive used most often and sticks out a lot more because it's much higher than the average person, right?
[00:26:21]
And so, generally speaking, what that means is we like to collaborate on different projects. I still like to have a final say in some of the things that we're gonna be doing, but collaborating for me is extremely important. You know, I wanna, you know, put a bunch of brains in a room and come up with the best idea from everybody and kind of cross that finish line, arm in arm, you know, together versus me saying, Hey, this is what I've come up with.
[00:26:43]
This is what we're gonna do and thanks for implementing it. You know, that kind of thing. The other drive for persuader is generally a low patience level in patience is described a little bit different in this terminology. So, low patience is not quite, you know, as we normally think of it, but that is, you know, the drive for change, looking to do things different, faster, better, where high patience is, you know, I like to do things a bit more steady, routine work, you know, some things that I, with my profile might seem a little monotonous.
[00:27:11]
But some people love coming in, doing the kinda the same thing, routine. Every day we work with a major auto company and you know, they like their sales people to have very low patience levels, quick to change and adapt to all the people coming in, but on the assembly line, extremely high patience levels, routine work, same bolt in the same hole every single day and love doing it.
[00:27:33]
Neither one of those roles would like to switch with each other, but they're all perfect for the roles they're hired for and that's what we try to aim for.
[00:27:39] Dr. Nate Salah
Interesting, interesting. So it gets a little eerie, I think on the receiving end of that. Sometimes my cousin's wife is a psychologist and I would always joke with her and say, Does everyone get nervous when you're around them?
[00:27:52]
Because they think you're getting into their head and figuring out, Right. I suspect at this stage, because you've been so long in the trenches that you can, even without the assessment, there's probably visual and audio, auditory and kinesthetic cues that you can see in individuals and say, Hmm, I would probably, based on some of the conversations I'm having with you, put you in this classification. Right?
[00:28:16] Michael McCloskey
Well, sometimes, yes. You know, people can fake it really, really well sometimes too. But, you know, it's fascinating to see people adapt based on the needs of the business. And adaptability is huge because sometimes they're working on a project that's very short. You know, maybe there's a 30 day window on that project where people have to adapt and almost have different drives than what they have naturally.
[00:28:38]
And then other times when they're in their natural state, if you will, that's the time they use less energy and they last a lot longer during the day. So the more people adapt during the day, which happens a lot more than you think, the more energy they use.
[00:28:51] Dr. Nate Salah
I'm glad you brought that up because in the assessment there is a section that that assesses or identified that. How far you are off in that moment or in that
[00:29:02] Michael McCloskey
Like a 30 or 60-day timeframe. Right.
[00:29:05] Dr. Nate Salah
From your natural state. That's right. Which again, yes, does require more effort and energy. Right. Cuz it's not your natural or flow state, I guess you'd call it. That's right. Yeah. Which is fascinating to me. And I think that's important too, to identify in how we communicate.
[00:29:21]
Because if for example, I, my classification is altruists, right? Right. So some of the classes tell, Tell me a little bit bit about
[00:29:30] Michael McCloskey
Altruists. Sure. So you're all about how can I help you, you know, step, you, like putting yourself out of the way to ensure that others are helped a lot, which is what makes you such a great coach with a lot of your coaching programs and, you know, helping your clients here.
[00:29:44]
Just saying, Hey, you know what, I'm putting my ego aside, you know, what can I do to ensure you're getting the best possible outcome, which is a really great drives to have in the, in the world you're in.
[00:29:53] Dr. Nate Salah
Well, and that to me is, once I understood that better, it made more senseof what I don't consider work.
[00:30:01]
Right, Right. That's exactly right. Yeah. Because for example, when I was preparing to start the podcast and I was working with one of my coaches who just so happens to be your brother. Right. And he said, Nate, you know, based on your PI, based on what you love to do and just to help and the conversations, of course I'm also higher on the collaboration side.
[00:30:25]
Just have fun. That's right. My only coaching for you on this pod, you're gonna do great. You're gonna have great conversations. Just have fun. And what I found is this is not, this is, to me, this is my total like love language release. I get to even today. Right. Just meeting with you today. Right. I mean, I had an unfortunate, tragic loss of the family earlier this week, and it's been just so hectic.
[00:30:53]
And you know, just all the preparations. We talked about this off-fair. And just to spend a few moments. Just releasing in my flow state. Right. Because that, to me, the other state of all of those heavy-duty preparations, it's been out of my normal sort of area of my drive. And so this is where I find ah, yes.
[00:31:18]
Right. And so I think that's important for a listener to understand because if you don't know yourself well enough, you may be spending so inordinate amount of time in an area outside of your natural drive state that are expending so much energy, and it's okay for a season, but it's unsustainable.
[00:31:36]
Right. That you need to know where you are best serving others so that you can stay in that state and, and have others join you in other states that you may be struggling or you may be working very hard in, that is not where you're supposed to be.
[00:31:54] Michael McCloskey
Correct. Well, you know, you think back to our great great grandparents, right? They would be in a position or some kind of a job at a place for 40, 50 years before they retire and retirement day would come and they'd say, Oh my gosh, I can't wait to get the outta here. And you're like, What? You've been here 40 years, you know, What do you mean you can't wait to get outta here? Are you just kind of done working here?
[00:32:13]
And he goes, No, I've, you know, my grandfather would say, Oh no, I hated this job for, you know, forever. So, well, what are you doing? Well it was, you know, a good pension, a good union, you know, whatever it happened to be that that kept them there. You'll find that today, you know, today people say, I just feel like it's not a good fit.
[00:32:29]
And they leave sometimes with no notice. And so that's why you're seeing such turnover in a lot of companies besides the culture pieces and everything else. You know, a lot of times people go into a career like you kind of mentioned at, at 21. 19, 20, 21, 22, and they think that's where they're gonna be for the rest of their life.
[00:32:46]
So they go from one company to the next company, to the next company doing the exact same job. And they realize later on, well, it just doesn't fit my drives. Right. It's not the culture, it's not the company necessarily. It's just, what am I doing here? I kind of fell into this, you know, at a certain time in my life, and now I'm thinking, What am I doing?
[00:33:04]
Cuz it's not really fun for me. I, you know, you see all these people that say, I feel like it's not even work. Right? Yeah. And then you're thinking, Okay, what, what I, what do I need to do to get that? I had a position at a company when I was employed where that I really, really liked a lot. I enjoyed what I did.
[00:33:19]
I was a director of learning. I covered half the country for some leadership competencies. It was all scripted for me. It was more of a deliverable of training a, you know, a deliverer of training. And you know, I liked it a lot, but I didn't love. And when I started working with this, you know, with a predictive index and a few other assessments that we do for leadership training and working one on one with people and with companies and executive, you know, leaders around kind of the boardroom table if you will.
[00:33:49]
I mean, that to me was much more in depth. That was the kind of leadership training that I was looking for to deliver. And so when I went from kind of an overly structured company to where I didn't have a lot of leeway to kind of mold and kind of flow with the audience a little bit, I kind of felt like it just wasn't right.
[00:34:08]
It wasn't a good fit for me, and I'm much more free flowing with that high extroversion, as you would guess. And so by putting me into a role and creating this company, where I could just be myself all the time. It was never work from day one. And you know, we've got a lot of clients under contract now. We work with a lot of different, you know, companies.
[00:34:27]
And I just could literally go for 8, 9, 10, 12 hours a day and then be ready to go out and have a good time. I mean, I, nothing, it just doesn't exhaust me at all. Right.
[00:34:37] Dr. Nate Salah
And that's, and I think, I'm glad you brought that up because when we're talking about work, some people are saying, Well, it's all work.
[00:34:41]
Well, it's really the laboriousness of it. Right. I mean, I think that's a proper terminology because some work is, like you said, it's an effort of love. It's all effort. But the effort of love is where you're in your natural state. Right. And you're utilizing, I mean, you really, it's, you know, some people use the terminology, your genius zone, whatever the terminology you want to use, and it's truly a joy for you.
[00:35:06]
I mean, it's fulfilling. It is. It's life giving, right? It's energizing rather than energy constraining or depleting. Right. And what a beautiful place to be. Then the beauty of it is we have choices. We can choose. Now you say, Oh Nate, you don't know my life, Mike. You don't know my life. It's true, Right?
[00:35:27]
But the question is, am I desiring to make and create an irresistible offer for my life? And that's really the first step is do I want that? Because if I want that enough, I'll start to take steps forward to move that forward. And through this, I mean, I love how this conversation is going because all of this ties right back into communication.
[00:35:53]
First, we have to be able to communicate with ourselves, right. And hear where we are best fulfilling our lives. And if we don't know ourselves or know where these areas of our best possible selves live, we can spend an entire lifetime. And we've seen people, It's been an entire life. Yes, we have.
[00:36:15]
Still see people. Still see people. Right. And so it's really, it's so, I really believe that the enslaved mind has been said. I'm sorry, the educated mind cannot be enslaved. And not my quote, but that's the thing. It's freedom, It's liberation, right? And so by it, through educating ourselves and learning, and this is just one essential tool.
[00:34:43]
And here's another thing. What's really interesting, even if you fall into a classification like a persuader or an altruist, one of my co-hosts on our Monday episodes, Travis Revelle, is also an altruist. And though Travis and I, I always thought we were so different, but we had similarities. You know, there were some things were like, Wow, we're so, But then we're, I felt like we were so different.
[00:36:57]
And it's interesting when I look at his predictive index score and my predictive index, I shouldn't say score, but the results. And there are similarities, but there's differences. That's right. And, and that's okay too.
[00:37:10] Michael McCloskey
A hundred percent. When you think of, like altruists for example, it just kinda gives me an idea, it's like a zip code, right?
[00:37:15]
It just kind of lets me know where you live for what your drives are. But there are millions of people within that zip code that are all very different, but we can't, you know, have a name for all millions and millions of people out there. So it just kinda gives us an idea of where you like to, how you like to do your business, how you like to do business.
[00:37:33]
And, but again, everyone can be different. Not every persuader is the same as other persuaders. Not every maverick is the same as, and that's for sure. But there are little nuances that make a difference even, you know, how you process things, whether that is, you know, through intuition or through, you know, other, you know, types of you know, ways that you can kind of process things.It makes a big difference in how each person mixes with all the other drives, right.
[00:37:57] Dr. Nate Salah
Life circumstances, all of that. Right. Right. Have different pieces to it. So we've got formality, we've got extroversion, right? Dominance. Right. And the last one,
[00:38:06] Michael McCloskey
Patience. Patience. You know, one of the things too, I'll point out like dominance.
[00:38:11]
I see this a lot in CEOs, a lot of entrepreneurs, they have a very high dominance. And so they like to make the decisions. They like to be the ones that solve every problem on the planet. And that might be great when you're starting off as a, you know, a solopreneur and you're all by yourself, you get one other person on the team, maybe two other people on the team, and that works for a little while.
[00:38:33]
The thing that I see most entrepreneurs struggle with today in leadership is they don't know how to delegate that out. Cause they're so used to making those decisions. So, and that, that dominance is so important to them because they say, Well, well it got me here, it got me started in the company. It got me, you know, I started the company that way.
[00:38:49]
I don't take no for an answer. I've got a big drive. You know, that kind of thing. But without having that delegation ability and skill set to have your team actually do some things on their own, they don't grow. People just don't grow from that. I think it's the number one struggle for a lot of smaller companies
[00:39:04] Dr. Nate Salah
Man, a hundred percent. And this is really important cuz I wanted to talk through some blind spots. Even with, within all of these, like, for example, as an altruist, I mean, the desire to help you can help people till you're, you're just done. Right, Right. Cooked. I've always had a high agreeableness in different assessments. And that's not good either because I used to say yes. All the time. Right. Especially as, and you know, you know who you are, especially as your value proposition increases, right? Right. And, and what that means is your value proposition increases as you have more usefulness to others.
[00:39:48]
So this is utility or usefulness. Basically it's neoclassical economics is built on this premise of usefulness. Right? And so the higher level of usefulness you have in society or in organizations or in community, the greater demand you have and that greater demand then creates a new problem is too much on your plate.
[00:40:10]
Right? So for somebody like me, or somebody even, I mean, Maverick, right? Or I mean, you can go down a list, right? Any one of us in that can overcommit.
[00:40:24] Michael McCloskey
It's a little easier for an altruists to persuade or somebody with a higher extroversion to overcommit because we have a hard time disappointing people. And so if you've got a dominance that's your highest drive, you have no problem in most cases saying no to someone.
[00:40:39]
And without an explanation. You say, Oh no, I'm not gonna do that. I don't have time for that today. And so those are the people that we generally think of as, you know, very direct, very, you know, you know, kind of in your face. They're not really but on people with a high extroversion perspective.
[00:40:54]
They do because somebody with a high extroversion would make that a much softer approach. I'm so sorry, I can't do that right now. I wish I could, you know, that kind of thing. But we don't wanna disappoint. And so that's an issue to a certain extent. It's loved by a lot of people, but it also means overcommitting, which means that sometimes we don't get everything done that we've committed to. Which again, disappoints people and that's not a good thing for us either.
[00:41:16] Dr. Nate Salah
Which makes us ineffective communicator. That's exactly right. As well. And I even, I'm glad you brought that up. Cause I tend to even cringe when someone is so direct. Right. I'm like, Oh man, it's so direct. But then on the other side I'm like, Wow, it's so refreshing. That's right. Cause I wish I could be that. Right.
[00:41:30] Michael McCloskey
You didn't never have to worry about what they were thinking or, Right.
[00:41:32] Dr. Nate Salah
Yeah. And when I say I wish I could be, I want to ask you the question, how can we learn through this process, of these blind spots and how to be more effective communicators and have more effective goals and results in leadership?
[00:41:50] Michael McCloskey
Well, it's a great question and all of those different leadership skills are literally skills that you can learn. So it's not, you know, as if people are, you know, innately amazing at, you know, leadership itself, they have some drives that might be a little bit easier. You know, obviously depending on the role you're in, in leadership, more closely associated, right?
[00:42:11]
That's right. With your role. And so that's always a possibility, but everyone can learn to adapt. I think one of the biggest things I see is, let's take an altruists, or a persuader, for example, again, since that's you and I. Because the dominance is a little bit lower than the extroversion. Sometimes we coach, train and develop per somebody for way, way longer than we really should spend time on, right?
[00:42:32]
Because we've got more hopes, goals, dreams, and aspirations for them than they do for themselves sometimes, right? And so if somebody's willing to kind of put in the work and want to be coached and, and wants to do some of the action items that, you know, we kind of put together as leaders for them to get better.
[00:42:46]
If they're asking us for that, that help, then we'll work with them forever, right? If they choose not to do that, we still tend to pour into them in the hopes that one day they'll kind of see what we see and the opportunity they've got. And so on the flip side of that too, if they are an employee of ours, you know, we hold onto people sometimes, you know, too long because we want the best for every person.
[00:43:09]
Where somebody with a higher dominance might say, Oh, this person's you know, clearly not doing their job. We need to get rid of them right away. And you know, so that's where the dynamics of leadership are very, very different. You know, some people could come up to you a week later and say, Hey, thanks for giving me that second shot ou of my life.
[00:43:23]
You know, you changed my life. I'm here forever. And somebody else could say, You know, that the other high dominance person fired me right away and that changed my life. You never know what's gonna make the biggest difference in that person. But there has to be a way that you've got that self-awareness of, Hey, I've got a tendency to be a little bit more lenient, and in this particular case, maybe I shouldn't be. And to be able to discern when you should and shouldn't be able to use those superpowers, if you will.
[00:43:46] Dr. Nate Salah
Agreed. So that is the blueprint, right? So the step by step one knows myself. If you're listening, likely you've had some level of interaction with some kind of an assessment. I mean, are you familiar with a number of like DISC, Myers-Briggs?
[00:44:02]
Sure. Others very popular. and we did the, my wife and I did a marriage seminar years and years ago, and it was, we were newlyweds and we wanted to have a strong foundation. Of course we did the disc assessment. Right. And I was a high I then a D, no surprise. Right, right, right. So interestingly, the marriage seminar split us up into breakouts with our own tribe, if you will.
[00:44:28]
Sure. Right. And I was like, Oh my goodness, all these people are so outgoing. I was like, I don't wanna bring around all these high. That's right. That's right. And so she was more of an S and what it did was it helped us to better understand where we fit in our relationship. And we've also done this with the predictive index, with the relationship guides.
[00:44:48]
Because we have some of our students who are spouses who work together as well, but I would argue, and I wanna hear what you have to say about this, it's not just in an organizational context, in a business context. Correct. And this stuff, it can actually work in other areas.
[00:45:02] Michael McCloskey
That's right. We work with, couples all the time. Probably if two to three couples a week, actually, it's very fascinating. The funny thing is that most people understand, you know, the person they're in a relationship with, they say, Okay, this person is this or this person is that. They just don't know how to make that a benefit.
[00:45:19]
Sometimes they look at it as detrimental to their relationship. Instead of saying, Okay, how can I use this, this skill that this person has, this drive, this person has to maximize, you know, our conversations and problem solving within our own marriage or you know, whatever it is we're doing. Right. And, and I think once people understand that it's a strength, cuz all of our drives are strengths, It's just how they're being used or viewed by others.
[00:45:43]
And when they start to say, Okay, this is a real strength. How do I maximize this in our relationship? That's when the life changes for people. So for a good example of that would be you've got a very high dominant CEO, for example, and you know, they go out and they try to deliver that message as we opened with, you know, what's my clear message to the team?
[00:46:02]
What am I trying to impact the most with the company? They generally can't do it. You know, they've do it well. They've had this vision in their mind is visionary mindset of where they wanted the company to be for the last five years. And they just think everybody's already there with them. Right? And so sometimes their message can be a little bit direct, a little bit tough.
[00:46:19]
And so you need that COO potentially in between you and the team. It's got that little bit softer approach. They take all of the hard messages from the CEO. They don't change the message, but they deliver it way differently than the COO would receive it. You know, kind of just as an example. And so it kind of gives that buffer between the driver of the business and the people implementing the things in the business that the visionary has and sometimes those communication styles are completely opposite.
[00:46:49]
So you need that translator in the middle. And so having those skill sets and different people on the team mean a lot. Give you an example. I've got a low formality and that's that drive to conform to rules and structure. When I started this company, it was me, the one man show, right? We've got about 13 people on the team now, and one of the first people I brought on board was somebody that to do all of, you know, my accounting before I knew you more, my finance ends and my taxes and things like.
[00:47:14]
And so that was several years ago. That was the stuff I hated doing with a passion. That was the, I hated every minute of it. You know, this guy then, you know, was perfect for it. He had a much higher formality. He made sure every I was dotted and every T was crossed. And, you know, he loved it, you know, if he found something that I was missing, he loved it.
[00:47:33]
And, you know, it's about being in the right role for you based on your drives instead of conforming all the time. You know, I think, you know, to our point earlier, every single person has to conform a little bit with leadership. But when you have to conform for 40 hours a week just to fit into your role, that's where the stress comes into play. And that's where you see very, very high turnover in companies.
[00:47:54] Dr. Nate Salah
Yeah. Yeah. But that's huge. So a lot of my research around highly effective leaders and visionary leaders is as soon as what's humanly possible and someone listening will remember me saying this possibly. They fired themselves from the work that was not in their flow state or you know, space that was in their genius zone, however you wanna describe it. Right. As soon as humanly possible. That's right. As soon as and sometimes there wasn't even enough money to do it. Right. But they knew. They just knew what they hated. They knew what they hated and what impeded them.
[00:48:31]
Right. And here's the thing about, here's the thing about what we're talking about. We all need to figure out what that desired outcome is. Right? Right. That's part of the big vision, the mission and the values that border and boundary are who can participate and who is not a part of this team. Right.
[00:48:50]
Really those beliefs. And then, we implement all of the different pieces that need to be in place to make that vision real. And if I'm in the way of that, because if I'm doing something that either I hate. Or I'm not good at or both. Right. And what I'm doing is I'm doing a disservice, right, to the organization, to my own leadership, to my own team. So I need to fire myself, right, to get outta the way.
[00:49:19] Michael McCloskey
But it's, many don't. Many don't. They don't. Cuz they want that, you know, full control over everything cuz that's the way it's always been. You know, one of the downsides is of hiring someone to do all the stuff that you don't want to do is a lot of times a new business owner doesn't interview or doesn't, you know, do an interview very well.
[00:49:35]
They don't know their questions to ask. So all they do is look for somebody that they match with personality-wise, which is exactly the person they're firing. Right. Which is the irony of the whole thing. Yeah. So, for example, a high dominance person wants somebody that's kind of a go-getter, go out there and take charge, solve problems, all those kind of things when what they really need potentially is someone just do the tasks they don't wanna do like an almost like an admin role or to do something totally different, but they generally interview someone they connect with really, really well and they go, You're my person. It's the exact same person that doesn't wanna do the job.
[00:50:06] Dr. Nate Salah
And so what you've done, and I love that you've done this because it's hit me so hard, is in terms of like recognizing I should have been doing this for the last 27 years, right? Is you will identify the drives necessary for that position. That's right. Doesn't have anything to do with whether their hair was fixed, whether they had, you know, time in the military, you know, whatever. None of that matters. But what matters is identifying the perfect fit that position based on the drives.
[00:50:44] Michael McCloskey
That's right. It's huge.
[00:50:45] Dr. Nate Salah
It is. It makes the difference. It's huge. And I've seen it, I've seen the results of it, some of my own students who have done that. And also what it does is it keeps you from compromising, right? Because we'll compromise when we feel like we're under the ground. Of course we will like, oh well, you know, they're good enough.
[00:51:01]
Outta 10 isn't bad. Right. But it is when you're trying to create an environment that leads to some kind of experience that maximizes the possibility to reach that mission, vision and max. Use those value, utilize those values. So talk a little bit about that.
[00:51:22] Michael McCloskey
Sure. The piece you're talking about is the job model.
[00:51:24]
And so what that allows us to do is we have three people, we can be more, but three is a kind of a perfect number. Take a survey. It's about 17 minutes long, 20 minutes long, and then it allows you, we give you all of the answers. It'll say things like, you know, must be able to present in front of large groups of people, or look at spreadsheets for long periods of time.
[00:51:43]
And so all you have to do is put a check mark by all of the things that are the demands of the job. Once that's done, that kinda gives us a graph. And for those of you that have seen predictive index, you know, there's some graphs involved and that gives us a graph to kinda look at. And all three people do this very independently.
[00:51:59]
They do not, you know, overlap, you know, answers. And then we make sure everybody's aligned first in the company. Most of the time they're not. And that's a bigger problem than you know anything, because, you know, if I hire somebody and I think they're the perfect person on the planet, and then you come back behind me and go, that's not what I was thinking.
[00:52:16]
It eliminates all of that confusion. Now, this poor applicant or this new employee is stuck in the middle of you and I arguing over who's the perfect, you know, employee for this role. We all verify and confirm that we are all in agreement of who we're looking for, right? And what the, what the job entails. Then as people take the survey, then we actually give them a score.
[00:52:35]
We overlap their graph with the graph that we created, and we give them a score on a scale of one to 10, 10 being the best. And we look at three things overall when people apply. One is the behaviors, which is what that will, you know, assess for us. Second thing is the heart, which is the mission statement, the core values, how well do they line up with those things.
[00:52:56]
And the third is what we call the briefcase, which is the you know, the resume, the, you know, certificates, things that you might need for the actual role. And the cool thing about the heart piece or the core values piece and the briefcase is those are very, very important. But I can change some of those things along the way.
[00:53:13]
I can change the briefcase literally today. I can get a certificate of completion for something online and add that to my resume. I can change it every. You know, 30 minutes if I wanted to, or every four years if I wanted to go to, you know, school for different things. But one thing that's the most stable over time is the behavioral piece, because that changes only about every 12 to 15 years.
[00:53:34]
We know exactly who we're hiring, you know, for the role. So we look at all three of those things. But the behavioral is the most stable over time. Yeah, by far.
[00:53:43] Dr. Nate Salah
And the results, I mean, when you're talking about. It just reminds, Okay, so lemme ask you this before I share this. At what point during the interview process does that come into play?
[00:53:55] Michael McCloskey
Everybody takes it from the very beginning. In my opinion, there's no better way to find out who you've got in the candidate pool, right? Because I know some people that have what we call a skinny resume and so they've got a very light resume, and it's, it could be for a position where, you know, resume is not as important.
[00:54:10]
Obviously, if you're applying for physician's role, resume is important. You have to go to med school, right? You can't just say, Hey, I'd like to apply. I watched a video on YouTube. But in a lot of positions, you know, resume is not as important to some people, to some businesses. They're looking for natural fit more than anything.
[00:54:27]
And so when we can prove there's a natural fit from the very beginning, then maybe resume takes the second place to those three things. It could remain in first, depending on criteria we work with. Like I said, we work with a lot of hospitals, so that's why that came to mind.
[00:54:39] Dr. Nate Salah
So there's so many benefits to this, and you're listening, you're like, Yeah, that would've came, Come in handy so many different occasions. Right, Right. I was, even this last year, we were under the gun and I hired someone who I knew I didn't even have to take the have take. I knew this, it was a long shot. Sure. But I needed someone and it didn't work out. Right. And the effort involved in transitioning someone out is so arduous.
[00:55:12]
It's so difficult. It's stressful. Right. For all parties. And it's so much more effective to start with that clear foundation for what it is that the role requires. Right. To be able to communicate that effectively to the team who's creating the different aspects of the assessment. And then to communicate that effectively to your applicants.
[00:55:37]
Right. Because I suspect that even as applicants are completing this, they're recognizing whether or not they may even be a fit,
[00:55:46] Michael McCloskey
Potentially, the way this assessment is designed it, there's no trick questions. It doesn't say like, on a scale of one to 10, you know, would you do this? So there are no trick kind of questions.
[00:55:57]
There are no questions at all. There's just two sets of instructions and I won't get into in depth in case somebody, you know, has never taken it before. I don't want to kind of give away some of the insider trade secrets, but it almost puts your mind at such a relaxed state that you don't really know the data we're getting until we're done.
[00:56:13]
And it's the simplest assessment on the planet. But because there's no forced choice, like, you know, you have to pick on a scale of one to 10, there's no forced choice for anything because again, there's no questions. It actually is EEOC compliant. So you can use it for hiring, which 99% of the assessments out there you cannot use because they're biased or, you know, they have some kind of, you know, issue against, you know, race, sex, religion, things like that In some of the questioning.
[00:56:42]
And so when there's no questions asked at all, it just allows the person to really open up and share more about themselves. And then, when they get the data, they're like, Oh my gosh, I can't believe that shared so much about me.
[00:56:52] Dr. Nate Salah
So I go home and I tell my wife, I need you to take this survey so that you can, this is gonna be good. You can communicate better with me.
[00:57:01] Michael McCloskey
Oh, sure. Yeah. That's what it's. Yeah. You know, it is funny you said that because so many leaders have said, I would like, when we first start having these conversations with, different leadership teams, they say, I need my team to understand me more. And I say, I'm not gonna, this is not, you're not the right client for me.
[00:57:20]
You know, because it's up to us to remove obstacles from our team so that they can go out there and run the business. And the more they can understand how to get those obstacles out of the way and motivate and influence the team, the better leader they become in the staff size. Yeah. And so, so many leaders have it wrong.
[00:57:39]
It's how can you adapt to me? And I know you just joked about that, you know, but I'm glad you kind of triggered that because that's said a lot. Yeah. A lot.
[00:57:46] Dr. Nate Salah
Yeah. And in the servant leadership realm, which I talk a lot about, one of the primary objectives for a servant leader is to create an environment that sets each one of their people up to be freer, wiser, healthier, or autonomous, more likely themselves to develop into servants and leaders themselves.
[00:58:10]
And that's right out of Robert Greenlees playbook, who was a pioneer in this area of, of servant leadership. And so if that's the goal, part of the goal process, because what that does is it puts the right people in the right seats, it fosters their ability to grow, it nourishes them, it creates a healthy, safe environment.
[00:58:31]
Where they can do their best possible work that they love, right? Because they're working in their genius zone and their space where they're not expending in amounts of effort, as we stated earlier, in areas that are outside of their normal drives. Right? Then you're gonna get great results if all those other pieces, you know, all things being equal. That's right. Why not start with that.
[00:58:58] Michael McCloskey
Well, the interesting thing is, you know, a lot of these assessments don't work very well, so a lot of people have tried them and they don't like 'em, and so, you know, Harvard did a lot of research on this and said it's got about a 98.6% accuracy rate, so that's a big plus.
[00:59:14]
The issue with most assessments out there today, which is why I don't use other assessments, is because they tell you where you are right now, where what you're going through right now as far as your drives go. The problem with that is if I try to coach to that and you're out of your comfort zone or out of your genius zone, I'm coaching you the wrong way and I don't know it.
[00:59:34]
And so with predictive index, I know what your natural drives are, how you are currently adapting, you know, for your current role and what people are actually seeing. And if I know where you currently are, but I don't know what your natural self is, it's all kind of irrelevant. Cause I don't know how to coach you back or get you into a role that is more natural for you.
[00:59:57]
And so I'm coaching the wrong way, using the wrong styles, using the wrong potentially aggressiveness or lackadaisical, you know, views. You know, in my approach to you, there could be a lot of things I'm doing wrong if I don't know really what your natural drives are.
[01:00:10] Dr. Nate Salah
Yeah. And it's been a game changer for me just knowing how to speak with each member of my team, especially in my businesses and in my mastermind.
[01:00:23]
Having that acuity of knowing those drives and being able to speak to people right where they are and help them overcome their obstacles is a game changer. Right.
[01:00:38] Michael McCloskey
Right. It's a game changer. You know, we work with so many people, but there's one particular person that stands out all the time to me. She was a bookkeeper for a very, very long time, and currently a CFO of a company.
[01:00:50]
And I looked at her drives and I said, What in the world are you doing, you know, as a bookkeeper for 20 some years? I said, They don't match your drives at all. And I've been doing this long enough, like 15 years. I'm very, very confident in the results. So I could be pretty blunt, you know? And she says, What are you talking about?
[01:01:11]
And I said, Your drives don't fit that role at all. I'm not saying people can't adapt, but you're completely opposite of what a bookkeeper usually is. And she looked around and she said, No one knows that but you. And she, it kind of hit home. And I said, So what's going on? And she said, My dad, when I was growing up, my dad was, you know, a bookkeeper.
[01:01:32]
And he said, If you want a job, no matter what happens with the economy, whether it's super strong or weak, you know there's always gonna be a role for you. So learn finance. And I said, How did you even get through school? And she says, Barely. She goes, I barely squeak by. I hated every minute of it.
[01:01:49]
And I said, So you're still kind, you know, you're still doing that in a CFO role. And she says, Yes, but now I've got a team of people to do the other. She said, When I was a bookkeeper for 20 years, I hated life. And she says, Now, as a CFO, I can use part of it that I like the strategic aspect part of my drives, or I can use the strategic, So now I love my job 20 hours a week and I hate my job 20 hours a week.
[01:02:13]
And I thought, How interesting is that? Yeah. You know, because I haven't really heard that in a long time because so many people. Churn and burn, you know, with companies looking for that right fit for them. And it was a very interesting conversation. And so that's when you, I started to realize, okay, we can go through life stuck in the rut.
[01:02:15]
You know, kind of doing what we, you know, feel like we should be doing based on what our, you know, parents did or grandparents told us to do or whatever. Or just cuz hey, we're good at it. Like, I was good at my own bookkeeping, I just hated it. . Right, right. Yeah. And so when it comes to something like that, you know, she learned a lot, you know, from that.
[01:02:48]
And so she started filling out different roles in the company. She was that in order to stay more on that 20 hours a week that she was most passionate about the strategic piece.
[01:02:57] Dr. Nate Salah
Yes, Yes. I love that story. And that translates to other areas of life, right? So if you have children, my son who he said, Dad, I wanna, you know, I wanna fall on your footsteps.
[01:03:10]
I'm like, No, you don't. It's like, well, I'll have security. Because you know, you've always said if you, if you can count something right? If you can count, well, you probably won't go hungry. Right. And I said, But that's not necessarily where you're going to be most satisfied. That's right. And let's find that, Let's develop that.
[01:03:29]
I mean, we have to find that through the kind of tools that we'll identify where you're strong. That's right. And where you will be fulfilled. Don't worry about that. And so I know that some, a parent listening needed to hear that. Yes. Because our kids and our grandkids, or even, you know, for a guardian or a caretaker or a big brother or big sister, you need to hear that they have a unique genius zone.
[01:03:55]
Right. And it's okay that it's not like yours. Right. In fact, it's even better. Right. You know, let's, let's break the mold. and be different.
[01:04:06] Michael McCloskey
Now, to your point, her dad was right. I mean, you know, there are, there's some great stability in that role. Hundred percent. So what he was saying wasn't misleading, but it wasn't allowing her to go after the things that really drive her. And that's a huge, huge difference.
[01:04:21] Dr. Nate Salah
It's big. So then the retool on that is let's assess where your best possible state is in terms of your drive and within this context of this industry. Right. Let's find the best possible role for you. That's right.
[01:04:38] Michael McCloskey
That's right. And in some cases it's not, you know, business ownership or it's not, you know, whatever it, you, you look at the guy who started Under Armour, right.
[01:04:46]
You know, he was, he started off in his basement, you know, putting a few garments together and you know, making shirts and things like that. And he went on to be the CEO of one of the you know, the biggest companies on the planet. And he recently stepped down from a CEO position because he says, I'm just not a good CEO.
[01:05:04]
Right. I mean, he would love to say, Hey, I'm the CEO of Under Armour, because there's a lot of prestige there. But you know, at the end of the day, he liked the sales part better. Right. And so, to your point, you know, finding what you're best at and maximizing that is gives you much more energy than faking it in a role just for status or whatever else you perceive you're getting from it. You're just gonna die young from that. That's not good.
[01:05:26] Dr. Nate Salah
No, I mean, just like a Michael Dell, even, Mark Zuckerberg, right? These are individuals who were on the side of the innovative side. Creative side, Yeah. And the connection side. Even some of the, obviously clearly a lot of the logistical side of building a business. But then they realized that there's other others who can perform the CEO role far better than me. Keep our mission moving forward.
[01:05:52] Michael McCloskey
Right? That's right. And if you don't recognize that in yourself, again, that goes back to the self-awareness. You're in big trouble. You know, I could have been my own bookkeeper for a long time and that I would've just hated. That took me hours and hours and hours to take somebody else, 10 minutes to do. Cuz they love it. .
[01:06:06] Dr. Nate Salah
I always tell people, do what you do best. Outsource the rest. Right. That's right. And best doesn't mean necessarily that what you are proficient in. Right. But what the best possible use of your strengths.
[01:06:17]
That's right. And your genius zone, your drives, however we describe it today. And then full circle back. Then we will most effectively communicate to ourselves, right? And then we can most effectively communicate to others.
[01:06:33] Michael McCloskey
You know, I realize this, I mean, I teach people that all the time. The funny thing is though, when you're your own business owner, you know, you sometimes have to have somebody else tell you and kick you in the butt a little bit too, which is exactly why people hire coaches, right?
[01:06:45]
I've got a coach and you know, you're a coach and you've got, you've got a few coaches as well, like I do. And you know, one of the things that I learned, I hired you know, several admins over the years and I just hired a COO for the first time in June. And they run the entire operation. Like I just go out and promote the company and do, you know, presentations from stage, work with some of the larger clients that we've got.
[01:07:10]
It's made a huge difference for me. You know, the, the new COO, she's also got an industrial organizational, psychology degree. And so instead of putting a person on the couch, she puts companies on the couch. So she's very familiar with this. She did her master's program with predictive index as well.
[01:07:26]
And so it's very, you know, interesting dynamic to kind of have someone like that on the team because I'm loving, you know, doing what I do and, you know, traveling and being kind of the face of the company and she's loving what she does and it just makes life so much easier. Again, it kinda goes back to the, I don't really feel like I'm working right.
[01:07:45]
When you're kind of in that comfort zone and you just really love what you do. Unfortunately, there's a million people in every town that just hate what they do. Yeah. It's such a struggle to watch that and because they just don't know what else is out there or really why they hate it. That's the part that's most sad to see and frustrating for me as a person, and that works with us all the time, is they, they don't.
[01:08:09]
They don't really realize they're not in the right role. Again, going back to the lady that I spoke to earlier, you know, she didn't know she wasn't in the right role. She just knew she wasn't happy. She didn't know why. And it wasn't until she became the CFO and started seeing the strategic side where she felt like, Oh my gosh, that now I'm like, I'm tingling with excitement almost, you know? And that's when it hit her. But it, it accidentally hit her.
[01:08:31] Dr. Nate Salah
It accidentally how many people, It wasn't intentional there or don't. That's right. Yeah. And they live in bondage. They live in this prison, if you will. And back to that original statement that the educated mind cannot be enslaved because it's liberation. That's right. It's just this education in knowing myself and then knowing how I can best serve. And grow.
[01:08:51] Michael McCloskey
Right. That's right. It's very interesting because we have, when we read some of their results and we take a look at what they do for a living, a lot of times it's not that they have to change careers, they might just have to change roles.
[01:09:03]
Right, Right. In some cases, they entirely change careers and they think, Okay, well I've always kind of wanted to do this, and you know, we just like, Well, why haven't you? I mean, if that's been your passion for 20 years, well it doesn't pay as well. Well, you think that, Well, let's find a way to monetize that scale.
[01:09:21]
Bring it. When it's that easy for you and it's not work, you know in your mind and it's beneficial to others on top of it, you can monetize that. You'll, you'll have food on the table. Don't worry about that. Yeah. How do we get you to transition into the something you're passionate about?
[01:09:35] Dr. Nate Salah
Well, and that's the how, right? The how, the pattern. The process. That's right. The method of the system. Right. Because then it creates, a very clear steps, order and progress. Sure. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. But you can't get there unless you know what you're working with.
[01:09:49] Michael McCloskey
That's right. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. There's a couple that I'm working with up in Minnesota and the guy is incredibly talented when it comes to woodworking and things like that.
[01:10:00]
And he's got, he's been working for somebody else for a very, very long time and kind of wanted to be his own boss and go out and start his own company. Some of the most intricate designs you've ever seen in a house come from him. I mean, stuff that just blows my mind. It's. You know, some of your basic, you know, trim work and things like that.
[01:10:16]
I mean, multimillion-dollar designs and things that I've, I'm just in awe of looking at a brochure. And so we're working on his transition, you know, getting out into starting his own business. And there's lots of things, It's a process, right? It's not, you can't just quit one day and go, you know, after your passion of, of things.
[01:10:31]
And I don't want him to just quit. Neither does he, just to go work for somebody else, you know, as a contractor either. And then they say, Oh, I own my own business. Cause that's not that either. But you know, he wants to create an entire educational system around, you know, this lost art that he really has.
[01:10:46]
And, you know, he wants to pass on some of these skill sets to other people and what does that look like? And so it's, it's very interesting to see him going from, you know, he loves what he does, hates the company he was working with right. To, you know, to build these custom places. But the more he starts talking about the school and this woodworking master classes that he is gonna put together, you can just see it changes this entire demeanor from the beginning of the conversation to the end, he goes from somebody that looks half dead to somebody that is rejuvenated and excited and energy levels high and he is got a smile on his face and you never knew he had any life him at all until he started thinking about these things that really kind of get him, you know, deuced and going and so it is fascinating to see, and he's such a teacher at heart where he's just kind of doing these master trade. But with very little heart, cuz he is not transferring that skill to anybody else. Yeah. That's really what he's passionate about. Right.
[01:11:44] Dr. Nate Salah
And finding that is, it's essential. It is, it is. You know, Mike, I'm just so thankful for you. I'm thankful for your contribution, what you're doing to help people we share in that mission and that plight and a worthy cause.
[01:11:59]
And as we close, I'd like to pose a question to you that I pose to some of my guests one day. You mentioned life, right? And life going through your entire life. I think that we ask the questions and this is a valid question, I think that we should all ask ourselves. You know, one day you'll be at that great summit, the very end of the journey, and you'll be looking back on all you'd accomplish and all the people you touched if you were to communicate one statement that would bless you to hear from those who you've walked with along this journey. What would it be?
[01:12:33] Michael McCloskey
One statement that I would be blessed to hear to hear
[01:12:36] Dr. Nate Salah
About you.
[01:12:38] Michael McCloskey
Wow. That's a tough question. It is a tough question. It is. Thanks for, uh,
[01:12:41] Dr. Nate Salah
Finishing it back and, you know, there's no rehearsal, listener. There's, this is always, this is always a left field. There's no prep. So this is a right, this is a question that's answered, you know, from the heart.
[01:12:54] Michael McCloskey
Well, I think for me, I think I would love to hear, I don't know, not really a thank you or things like that. I would, it's more something I'd like to see quite honestly, and that is, with a little bit of self-awareness, maybe coaching or guidance, that someone was able to do the things that they always wanted to do.
[01:13:20]
And it's not necessarily about getting credit, so I don't need to hear anything. I'd rather see them go from being stuck in a rut to feeling like they were on top of that mountain, looking back going, Wow, look how far I've come because I've made the right decisions to, with a little bit of guidance to kind of help me see where my genius zone is or where I can best go out and make my own mark.
[01:13:43]
You know, I think, you know, there's a phrase, I mean, people have talked about it before where, you know, you stand in front of God one day and you say, Oh, you know, the certain guy says, look at all these things I've accomplished. And you know, God says, Well, you know, if you just focused a little bit differently and focused on me, this is what you would have accomplished if you did these.
[01:14:00]
And so I think these are, We call them drives here. I personally, you know, call them God-given talents. And I think when you are maximizing those, it doesn't, again, doesn't feel like work. And I think that's when you're making the most impact with less effort. It's minimal effort to make more impact on the world when you're in that zone and using those natural gifts.
[01:14:22]
And so I think it's something I would almost rather see than here. And I didn't really technically answer your question, but I think that's what I would like to see
[01:14:30] Dr. Nate Salah
Every time anyone's ever answered that question's always been different. And I would say from my vantage point, you're on your way.
[01:14:36] Michael McCloskey
Well, thank you very much. Well, it's been great. I can't thank you enough for inviting me. It's great to see you as always. You know, I know we don't hang out much with me living down in Florida, but I guess I'm just gonna have to come to Florida about that. That's it. Well, come on down anytime. We'll take you to the beach and go hang out, whatever.
[01:14:51] Dr. Nate Salah
That's awesome. Thanks for being here, brother.
[01:14:53] Michael McCloskey
Absolutely. Thank you. All right.
[01:14:55] Dr. Nate Salah
Well, my friend, I am so thrilled that you joined me on this episode of A Call to Leadership. And before you go to the next episode, especially if you're binge-listening, take a moment. I would love to get your honest review right here on your screen.
[01:15:12]
Your feedback is so important. It helps the podcast, it encourages me and it helps me. It helps me to give you more and more and more value. So I can't wait to read your review. I can't wait to be with you on the next episode. I'm Dr. Nate Sola. This is a call to leadership.