Believe it or not, addiction to certainty is real and affects people's thinking and beliefs. So for today's episode, we invited Jeremy Smith to discuss certainty addiction, how it influences decision-making and social interaction, and the right of people to judge accordingly. Don't miss all these and stay tuned!
Key takeaways to listen for
Resources Mentioned In This Episode
About Jeremy Smith
Jeremy’s life miraculously changed when Jesus rescued him in 1996. Since then, personally and professionally, he’s been passionate about helping Christians and non-Christians to think through and seriously consider what they believe, why they believe it, and why it matters. From 2000 – 2010, Jeremy’s professional history included consultative sales roles in the legal industry and educational publishing. From 2010 – 2020, Jeremy served as the Executive Director for Faith Ascent, a para-church organization training college-bound Christian teens in apologetics. In October 2020, with a team of like-minded friends, Jeremy founded ReThink315 and currently serves as the Executive Director. Jeremy also provides consulting services to faith-based non-profits (including churches) and chaplain services to C-Level corporate leaders.
From 2013 – 2020, Jeremy served as the Corporate Chaplain at Cordell & Cordell. He is affiliated with The Missouri Apologetics Network and St. Louis Reasonable Faith Chapter. Jeremy is happily married to Katie and is a grateful father to Elijah, Lucy, and Lorelei Rae.
Connect with Jeremy
Website: Rethink 315 Apologetics
Connect With Us
Master your context with real results leadership training!
To learn more, visit our website at www.greatsummit.com.
For tax, bookkeeping, or accounting help, contact Dr. Nate’s team at www.theincometaxcenter.com or send an email to info@theincometaxcenter.com.
Follow Dr. Nate on His Social Media
Believe it or not, addiction to certainty is real and affects people's thinking and beliefs. So for today's episode, we invited Jeremy Smith to discuss certainty addiction, how it influences decision-making and social interaction, and the right of people to judge accordingly. Don't miss all these and stay tuned!
Key takeaways to listen for
Resources Mentioned In This Episode
About Jeremy Smith
Jeremy’s life miraculously changed when Jesus rescued him in 1996. Since then, personally and professionally, he’s been passionate about helping Christians and non-Christians to think through and seriously consider what they believe, why they believe it, and why it matters. From 2000 – 2010, Jeremy’s professional history included consultative sales roles in the legal industry and educational publishing. From 2010 – 2020, Jeremy served as the Executive Director for Faith Ascent, a para-church organization training college-bound Christian teens in apologetics. In October 2020, with a team of like-minded friends, Jeremy founded ReThink315 and currently serves as the Executive Director. Jeremy also provides consulting services to faith-based non-profits (including churches) and chaplain services to C-Level corporate leaders.
From 2013 – 2020, Jeremy served as the Corporate Chaplain at Cordell & Cordell. He is affiliated with The Missouri Apologetics Network and St. Louis Reasonable Faith Chapter. Jeremy is happily married to Katie and is a grateful father to Elijah, Lucy, and Lorelei Rae.
Connect with Jeremy
Website: Rethink 315 Apologetics
Connect With Us
Master your context with real results leadership training!
To learn more, visit our website at www.greatsummit.com.
For tax, bookkeeping, or accounting help, contact Dr. Nate’s team at www.theincometaxcenter.com or send an email to info@theincometaxcenter.com.
Follow Dr. Nate on His Social Media
[00:00:00] Jeremy Smith
We all live in the same reality, and yet we perceive it maybe differently, and there's some subjectivity for sure. We can't deny it, but I love the idea of stripping away the biases as best we can. And just looking at, like, what is the objective reality here?
[00:00:20] Dr. Nate Salah
On this episode of a Call to Leadership, I asked the really important and, and maybe even difficult question, could we be too certain? Could we have a certainty addiction? And what that does is it creates another question is, are we holding on to too many things that perhaps we can loosen up a bit so that we can grow and learn from others? Well, I've invited someone who's got such a depth of thought leadership in this area. Jeremy Smith to join me in a conversation about this very important subject, certainty addiction.
[00:00:56]
Whoa, I can't wait for you to listen in. I'm Dr. Nate Salah, and this is A Call to Leadership. Jeremy, so good to have you on the show. It's good to be here, Nate. Yeah, man. You know, we have had, Years of conversations around very weighty matters about life, about family, about business, about the next generation, about faith, and these conversations.
[00:01:25]
We can go from one to many when we talk about some major issues that are so relevant today. And ironically, this isn't something I even plan on us talking about, but before we got in the air, we started talking about what does humility look like when you're living in the possibility for uncertainty? And, uh, I made the comment that I could be wrong about how I understand these weighty matters, right?
[00:01:51]
My own interpretation of even my own faith walk, right? Life in general. And the way I describe that is, well, it gives me opportunity then to learn from others. . Yeah. Yeah. So you made the statement of certainty addiction. Is that what you called it? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And unpack it.
[00:02:14] Jeremy Smith
It's a borrowed phrase, so I hope I do justice to, um, the person that I heard it from. So there's a context, and, uh, there's a gentleman who's not with us anymore. He went on to be with the Lord. His name's Francis Schaeffer. Have you ever heard the name? Very familiar. Cool. Yeah. So, you know, Francis and his wife Edith, essentially launched a Christian hippie commune in Switzerland, and that ministry is running, and I say that, uh, with love, right?
[00:02:42]
It's a, it's not a hippie commune, but it was, um, a very, uh, grassroots effort to invite non-Christians hurting, hurting Christians, skeptics to just really live with a Christian family in a Christian. And to, um, have all their questions answered well, so sometimes people would live with the Schaeffers for not just months, but years, and they'd become basically parts of the family anyway.
[00:03:09]
So the Schaeffers, um, they had more than one kid, but Franky Schaeffer was pretty popular. Do you know much about Franky's story? I'm not an expert, but I was listening to, uh, some of his podcasts and some interviews that he's done with people. So here's a guy who grew up with arguably one of the most influential Christian thinkers of a particular generation.
[00:03:34]
Right? So that's his dad, Francis Schaeffer, and he grew up in the ministry, watching, listening, learning was a part of the ministry, and then later became, I think, Agnostic at best, Maybe atheist. Okay. And there's a long story behind all of that. But, um, he sort of switched gears, and as he got older and had kids and then grandkids, he started wondering, am I right about my, my agnosticism or my atheism?
[00:04:10]
And again, this is what I gathered from the podcast. I hope I have all the facts straight, but he was talking about a book that he wrote. And I don't even remember the title, but it was essentially a book about the possibility that some of this Christian stuff might be true, contrary to what he's been saying for the last, I don't know, couple of decades, right?
[00:04:34]
For the better part of his adult life, and yet he's not sure. Right? So he's not a card-carrying, you know, Bible-believing evangelical Christian. And yet he's not a card-carrying anti-Christian atheist either. He actually attends church, and he wants his grandkids to go to church with him. And he practices like different disciplines and liturgies, and I think, even prayer.
[00:05:03]
And yet he says, I'm not sure if all this is true. , but I suspect some of it is. And so anyway, he wrote this really cool book. I never got around to reading it, but I, I went on a deep dive with a lot of his interviews about the book, so I feel like I've read it. But here's the weird thing, Nate. He said that the hate mail that he got from, on the one hand of fundamentalist Christians and, on the other hand, fundamentalist atheists, Was basically identical.
[00:05:38]
He said that, give or take a couple of keywords. He said that the objections were identical on the Christian side and on the atheist side. He said that everybody was essentially telling him we were with you up until you said, fill in the blank, and now you're out. You're out of the tribe. You're out of the club.
[00:06:04]
You're one of those other people, right? And yet it was coming from both sides. So the Christians were saying, You're not Christian enough. The Athe atheists and some agnostics were saying you're not agnostic enough. And so he, he was talking about, like, he said, I just didn't get it. Like how could these people from such different worlds and perspectives be essentially telling me that I'm out for the same reasons?
[00:06:29]
And he said I think it comes down to certainty addiction. He said, I'm, I'm okay with where I'm at. I could be wrong, but I'm exploring possibilities, right? And I'm even living as if some of these possibilities may be true. and he would never say there's no such thing as objective truth, right? He's just talking about his own experiences and his interpretation, like you were saying, of the facts and the evidence.
[00:07:02]
And he's made room for the fact that Christianity may be true, but it also may not be true. And he's just trying to be intellectually honest. In his book, and again, he said that the atheists were addicted to certainty. and the Christians were addicted to certainty, and neither one of them were comfortable at all. Yeah, isn't that fascinating?
[00:07:27] Dr. Nate Salah
It is on so many levels because I think about one, I can respect someone who's on a journey, who has a real desire to seek truth, A real desire, no matter where it leads them. By the way, that says a lot, right? Because it could lead me to a place that's un. Can lead me to a place that's uncomfortable.
[00:07:48]
It lead me to a place that leaves, as you stated, my tribe, I think it was the scholar and, uh, Pulitzer Prize-winning author James MacGregor Burns way back in the seventies. He, he talked a lot about transforming leadership and transformative leadership, and he really brought this topic and philosophy of leadership into mainstream academia.
[00:08:08]
And he said in his book on leadership, and I'm paraphrasing, that the price we pay for inclusion is conformity. And so the question is, what's most important? Inclusion by conformity or truth. I mean, it's really the question when you boil it all down, it's a hard question to answer because we, we live in a communal society.
[00:08:34] Jeremy Smith
A pluralistic society.
[00:08:35] Dr. Nate Salah
That, too, yes. We’re creatures that desire social interaction. I mean, just look what happened during the pandemic. When we were isolated from one another when you couldn't, you know, grandparents couldn't go see their kids when you couldn't, if someone was dying, oh my goodness. And you couldn't visit them. And, of course, all the depression and other challenges that come across now in living in this isolation.
[00:09:02]
So, you know, how do we navigate? These are difficult questions, but they're real questions, and they're, I mean, someone listening right now is like, Yeah, please help, Right? Answer that question. , but before we even begin to answer that question, we really have to understand, I think, in some ways, this applies to leadership.
[00:09:19]
You know, who and what are we following? Is that leading us to a place that is better than the future in the current context? Right? I mean, that's ultimately one aspect of leadership, and I, I tend to ask this question when I'm considering following someone or a group of people, is one, do they know where they're going? And two, do they know how to get there? Oh, of course. Then there's three. Do I want to go right?
[00:09:48] Jeremy Smith
Do I wanna follow?
[00:09:50] Dr. Nate Salah
That's right. Yeah. . Yeah. And it's interesting Schaeffer's journey as he's exploring these paths, and I think it also speaks to.
[00:09:59] Jeremy Smith
Schaeffer Jr. Like Franky Shaeffer. Yeah, yeah.
[00:10:01] Dr. Nate Salah
Yeah, yeah. Schaeffer Jr., I think it also speaks to, there's a plight as an individual that we each have, in other words. Your parents had their plight, their parents had, and each generation has their own individual plight, and you have to set out on a journey. And I've had the same conversation with many people in my own family about simply accepting what someone else that is true for you. However, many generations ago were actually testing it empirically.
[00:10:32]
I mean, I think that's one of your passions. So someone on a journey, especially, you know, and you work with a lot of young people. Mm-hmm. , right? So that's true. 14, 15 to college.
[00:10:48] Jeremy Smith
High school age, like later, high school age, some early college. And then of course, I work closely with the people that care about them too.
[00:10:55]
So a lot of parents and grandparents and youth pastors. Yeah. But yeah, my, uh, uh, just vocationally with the ministry, the organization, it's uh, it's mostly high school, early college.
[00:11:08] Dr. Nate Salah
In this age. You know, let's unpack this age. You know what's happening here during this time? We're between a child and an adult adolescence, as we call it today.
[00:11:16]
Of course, that terminology has changed much over the years, but this is a confusing time. You're between two people because sometimes you wanna be a kid, but sometimes you feel like, Well, I need to be mature. I need to be responsible as an adult, and you're being changed and molded and pulled in all these different directions.
[00:11:37] Jeremy Smith
On the one hand, um, I look at it differently now as a 43-year-old man who works with young people, but I'm really thankful that I still have this, I guess, memory or this ability to put myself back in the shoes that I used to wear right at that age. And so speaking from a person who works with young people, but also speaking from the perspective of somebody who was young once, Yeah.
[00:12:06] Dr. Nate Salah
You were an eighties kid; let's just throw it out. Right.
[00:12:08] Jeremy Smith
That's true, man. Yeah. Yeah. 1978 was the year I was born. Right. And uh, it really came of age right through the eighties, early nineties. And I just remember, you know, at that. Point in your journey, and it's a little bit different age-wise for everybody, but there's a point in, I think, in everybody's journey where you're developing your core identity, your core beliefs, your worldview as some people might call it.
[00:12:32]
And that's shaped by so many things, right? Like we would like to think that, Well, I've just looked at the facts, and I've weighed the evidence, and this is what I believe, but that's just not true. We're holistic people. We're shaped by our experiences, we're shaped by, uh, the things that make us laugh and cry.
[00:12:51]
The things that help and hurt. Certainly, we are indeed shaped by objective truths and facts and evidence-seeking, but at the same time, so much of it is under the radar, right? It's like subterranean or undercurrent-type stuff you don't even know what's motivating you unless you're really self-aware. But even that doesn't come until usually later. Right? When you have reasons to be introspective.
[00:13:16] Dr. Nate Salah
Indeed. And even then, you've, I think in some ways you must also continue to, uh, examine.
[00:13:25] Jeremy Smith
Yes. Your own That's right. Self-awareness. That's, that's right. Yeah. . But I remember as a young person, just, I don't even think I asked this like out loud, right? It was just a question.
[00:13:37]
Underneath all my questions, and that is what part of mom and dad's, and I actually wasn't really close to my biological dad, but we could say what part of mom and stepdad's philosophy of life makes sense and doesn't, What did I learn from the teachers? That seems to be true, and what maybe isn't true, or perhaps there's a better way to look at it or a different way to look at it.
[00:14:03]
And you look at all these authority structures, right? You look at the people that were, um, supposed to be leading you, and you ask like, What, what do I keep? What do I discard? What can I own? And some, it's like eating the meat right and spitting out the bones. And some of that is motivated. For me, some of that was motivated by rebellion, which isn't even the best way, right, to define yourself.
[00:14:30]
That's not a great identity anchor, right, to tie the ship to. But like me, if you, if you dealt with a lot of just trauma and disappointment and unfair circumstances, and then a whole lot of bad choices too, on top of that. And you're just kind of acting out of emotion and, and, and, and hurt. And I just remember at there was a point in my life, late teens, early twenties, mostly late teens, but where I was just saying whatever those people are, I want to be the opposite.
[00:15:02]
You know? Like, And who are those people? Authorities. Oh, authorities. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and when you say authority, like that means so many different things, but for me, it was I saw the way my mom failed. I don't want to do that. I'm gonna do the opposite of what she did. For better or worse, I saw the way my teachers failed me or maybe failed other students, or at least what I perceived as failure.
[00:15:25]
I'm gonna be the opposite of them. Oh, I had a bad run-in with a, a law enforcement a representative. Oh, I don't like them. I'm gonna be the opposite of that. You know what I mean? Like it was so reactionary. Mm-hmm. . It was very reactionary.
[00:15:38] Dr. Nate Salah
But you know what it says, it speaks to; I just wanna pause there because it speaks to the vision of.
[00:15:47]
And, and I know this is your story, but I mean, I think that this is applicable in other, with other young people as well. You can tell me if I'm right or wrong, but it speaks to how they are so focused on an authority figure as you, as you will; they're so focused on what, as you said, what am I keeping?
[00:16:05]
What am I discarding? I mean, we tend to forget that as middle-aged people, we're, we're that next level of, like, is this who I want to be? and because we're so busy going through our lives and to just pause and say, Wow, what is that individual? Whether it's whether it's a child or whether it's a mentee, or a student.
[00:16:27]
Their impressions of me is informing how they view their future self. I mean, it's a big deal.
[00:16:37] Jeremy Smith
Yeah. It is.
[00:16:37] Dr. Nate Salah
And that's what was happening for you?
[00:16:38] Jeremy Smith
It was, and I, and I want to be, uh, really clear too, because not all the people I mentioned were actually, let's say, incorrect. Right. In terms of what they were trying to help me understand, and this is why I think it's so important as young people and even adults are just to kind of riff on this whole certainty thing, like as long as we are constantly evaluating.
[00:17:03]
Where did this idea come from? Why do I act this way? Or why do I believe this? Like, is this rooted in knee-jerk emotion, which is what it was for me in my, like, say, teenage life. And it wasn't until almost mid-twenties that I started in some ways deconstructing, which isn't always a bad term, by the way.
[00:17:26]
It can be a bad term in some of the circles that we run in, but it's not always a bad term. I started deconstructing, and I started asking, Why do I do what I do? Why do I believe what I believe? Why do, Why do I think what I think does it really correspond to reality? And that's when I became just super interested in, like, psychology and history.
[00:17:53]
Science and philosophy, and of course, uh, theology, uh, and the questions, you know, of God and, and world religions and Christianity specifically in the person of Jesus. But it's so funny because I wonder, Nate, and I'm, I'm no expert in this, but I wonder how much of that was tied to the development of my frontal lobes, right?
[00:18:16] Dr. Nate Salah
Yeah. I'm not an expert either, but the more we, the more we uncover that we real, we begin to understand that there's a process of brain development that has a, a relationship with comprehension understanding, as you said, at your worldview, and even that, that age bracket, you know, 23, 24, 25, really beginning to.
[00:18:37]
Think for yourself in such a way that your brain has got all the tools it needs. In fact, it's interesting you'd mentioned that because, on the flip side, I've read, and again, you know, I'm not a medical professional, but I've read that our cells don't start dying until our mid-twenties as well. Really? Wow.
[00:18:54]
So yeah, so, so early to mid-twenties, we're still, you know, I think someone I think had read you get like six to nine hearts regenerated, right? So you don't start aging until about your mid-twenties. Incidentally, that's also about the same time that your brain is fully functional, so you start dying at the same time.
[00:19:14]
You can really start thinking now and don't get me wrong, if you're a young person, it's not that you can't make decisions on your own, doesn't. It's not that you can't think, but it's still a developmental time, right? I think it's important to distinguish that not only if you're young, but also if you're a parent or if you're a caregiver.
[00:19:31]
Because there needs to be some margin there. Mm-hmm. , you know, I've been having these conversations with, we, we've been fostered for about 18 months over the last couple of years, and the constant sort of reassurance, or going back to this is still development, this is still development. We're still learning.
[00:19:48]
You know, try to like take a little bit off the gas in terms of how we judge the next generation because. , there's a process involved, and how am I involved in that process is do I have grace as well as setting healthy boundaries? It's a difficult road to follow because, again, goes back to self-awareness and self-examination, and certainly addiction.
[00:20:13] Jeremy Smith
Yeah. It's interesting that you mentioned Grace. There's a, just so many conversations within, well, all the different Christian traditions about the tension, you know, between law and grace and works and faith and all of that. Hey, but before I forget, I have a really funny story. Do you wanna hear it? Yeah.
[00:20:31]
Yeah. Okay. So this was a few years ago, and uh, I'm at a summer camp. This is an event that we do, you know, every summer where high school age. Church attending, mostly professing Christian teens, but sometimes not. They get together right about a hundred in a classroom setting for a whole week to just ask questions about science, philosophy, history, you name it, right under the umbrella of, you know, Christianity.
[00:21:00]
And the big question is, does this correspond to reality? Right? And anyway, so we've got all these kids, and for the first time in my career, and I've been running these events for, you know, almost 12 years now. This was about halfway through my tenure, let's say. And it was the first time we ever had to kick a kid out.
[00:21:18]
Okay. And what was really sad about it was he was one of my favorite kids. Because, again, he kind of reminded me of me right when I was in that rebellious stage. And I don't know his whole story, but I just remember he required a lot of extra attention and some extra discipline, right? But he was funny. I mean, he was charming.
[00:21:40]
Like witty, so anyway, long story short, uh, Unforgivable sins, you know? And in most youth retreats or camps or whatever is, Hey, boys don't go in the girl's area. Girls don't go in the boy's area. You know what I mean? And so he broke that rule right after we had announced that if anybody breaks that rule, you gotta go home.
[00:22:01]
So he broke the rule. And we catch him. And, of course, he had a great excuse. You know, I, Oh, I was just, I was helping her with a tech issue and, uh, Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, either way. Either way. You're not supposed to be in the girls' dorm after hours, right? Right. So here's what happened. This is so funny, Nate.
[00:22:19]
Sorry about the long buildup, but this is hilarious. . So, so it's late, It's, I mean, it's like 11 o'clock at night, and I'm like, All right, you're calling your dad not. You're gonna let him know what happened. And it was me and another volunteer. It was a pastor, actually; we're standing there kind of listening in, making sure that he does what he's supposed to do.
[00:22:41]
He calls his dad and is like, Dad, that needed to come get me 11 o'clock at night. Dad says, What, What? What happened? And he sort of told him the story, and the dad said this. He said we could hear it, right? He said, How long will you continue to make these poor decisions? And without skipping a beat, this kid said, Well, you know, dad, science says, Until my frontal lobes are fully developed, I'll probably be making bad decisions well into my mid-twenties.
[00:23:15]
Okay, Nate, Love it. I'm here. I'm the, I'm the authority. Like I'm with a pastor. Both of us cracked up laughing. I'm sure his dad heard us. Yeah. But anyway, sorry about the long-winded story, but isn't that hilarious?
[00:23:28] Dr. Nate Salah
Yeah. Yeah. And the kid is clearly intelligent. Yes. Right? Yeah. I mean, what a, what a comeback.
[00:23:34]
What is dad gonna say? Yeah. That's brilliant. Yeah. But it's a fact. Right? And it's interesting just having a conversation around that because, I mean, how many of his parents have said something similar to that, right? Maybe it's not the same language, but basically, are you gonna keep making these mistakes? And the answer is, and I think the young man rightly answered it. Yeah, unfortunately, I am. And part of his argument was, is that there's not much I can do about it.
[00:24:03] Jeremy Smith
Oh, but that, Now we're getting into the question of accountability.
[00:24:08] Dr. Nate Salah
Accountability, responsibility. Right. What can I do about it? Right? How can I mitigate the, I don't wanna call it a deficit, but the place I am developing a tendency, right?
[00:24:17]
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Truly, truly. Because we do have response, and it's interesting you brought accountability up because I've had this conversation with other youth in my own family, and you know, Don't judge me thing. Right. You know? And I hear it. You're judging me, right? You're judging me. You're judging me because there's some accountability and judgment, right?
[00:24:36]
And so this is a family member I was having a conversation with, and the statement came up, You're judging me. And my response shocked my younger relative. And my response was, Yeah, of course. And it's like, What do you mean, of course? Well, I have to judge your behavior. Imagine if you, And because I'm an authority.
[00:24:58]
And I'm responsible for you, and I care about you. But imagine if you went into a courtroom and you're looking up at the judge, and the judge is laying out the facts of what's happened in a certain situation. And you said to that, Judge, you're judging me. What do you think judge is gonna say? That's my job.
[00:25:16]
Hmm. Because as a judge, my job is to create an area of safety because safety and security, and obedience go hand in hand with authority. So there's psychologists and sociologists that argue that the true unwritten contract, if you will, of leadership or authority, is I'll exchange security and safety for obedience.
[00:25:47]
It's an exchange. So this is why people sometimes have, you know, in government institutions where they feel that they're not safe and secure anymore; they may no longer be obedient. Right civil disobedience. And so part of this relationship, going back to accountability and judging behavior, is so that we can maintain not only order but progress.
[00:26:13]
And so when I explain it this way, of course, my. My young relative did not like the answer but understood.
[00:26:20] Jeremy Smith
What was the age of your young relative?
[00:26:22] Dr. Nate Salah
My young 17. Okay, got it. 17. So I said I can't judge your heart. I would never try to judge your heart.
[00:26:29] Jeremy Smith
That's an important distinction too. Mm-hmm. , I'm glad you said that.
[00:26:32] Dr. Nate Salah
Yeah. Because I don't know what's going on inside. All I can do is make judgment on the fruit that you're bearing. Mm-hmm. . The actions, the actions, what you're doing in your life, and do.
[00:26:41] Jeremy Smith
And also, the outcomes start to interrupt.
[00:26:43] Dr. Nate Salah
That's where I was going. Do those actions lead you to favorable outcomes? I discuss it like this, and it wasn't me that I came up with this.
[00:26:52]
I, I heard it on a sermon years and years ago. Wise and foolish decisions, You know, what are the outcomes wise or are they foolish? And, of course, there's some middle ground there, too, right? Sure. I mean, not everything is totally foolish. Not everything is totally wise. But I started after I heard this sermon; this has probably been about 15 years ago. And when my son was a toddler and young, he would back talk or not do his chores or something along those lines.
[00:27:19]
I'd ask him, is that a wise or a foolish decision? And he'd think for a little bit, and he'd say, Or daddy at the time, that was foolish. So let's try it again so that you can make a wise choice. It leads you to a wise outcome. And so we'd try it again. And then he'd sometimes make the wise choice, right? But what was really fascinating about that is we didn't talk about rules, we didn't talk about laws, we didn't talk about right and wrong.
[00:27:49]
We just talked about why and foolish. Mm-hmm. . And if we can teach the. Not only the next generation but any generation about outcomes wise and foolish. And because I think sometimes we think very near sightedly, right? We don't think out into the distance, like, you know, you're a thinker, you're a smart guy, that's, you know, an area.
[00:28:11]
We've had a lot of similar shared conversations and as well as the rebelliousness as a teen. I mean, I was the Blacksheep. I was trying to be, and I hate to use that terminology because today, I don't even know if that terminology is even applic, is even appropriate. But I was the family member who was always gonna get into trouble, so rebellious, and I was constantly making foolish this choices, and I had no real guidance in my life that led me to making. And now, of course, you.
[00:28:46]
Back up and say you had real guidance in some areas; they just couldn't get through to you. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think we're still talking about, you know, this certainty addiction because we can be so certain about what others need, what we think they need, that we can miss truly investing in their lives and leading them to a wise future. All around your story, by the way.
[00:29:13] Jeremy Smith
The one about the frontal lobes. Yeah. Yeah. Uhhuh, or the certainty addiction. Well, so here's something that, uh, stuck out to me when you were talking about your 17-year-old family member talking about being judged and not liking that and, and you talking about the difference between whys and foolish decisions.
[00:29:31]
And what's interesting about all of this is that it all presupposes that there's some objective standard. By which we kind of measure actions or behaviors or even outcomes, right? And, and human activity. And, uh, it's so funny too because that man, gosh, if I had a dollar for every time, somebody said, Judge, not Jesus said, Judge, not let you be judged.
[00:29:57]
Right? I would never have to fundraise again. Nate, for our organization, www.rethink315.com. , smash that. Donate buddy. We, we will No, I, No. No, no. But on, in all seriousness, though. So, um, just something about that I just, I wanted to share. I think you'll appreciate this, and you've probably heard it before.
[00:30:16]
We all judge, and you told this to your 17-year-old and maybe using different terms, but and you don't even have to have a black robe and a gavel, right? Like when we decide whether or not to hit the gas at a green light or a red light, we made a judgment. When we even tell someone, You ought not judge. We are making a judgment.
[00:30:38]
We're guilty of the very thing that we're, And what's so interesting about that is, That line judge not, let you be judged. It's just it's a small segment of a much larger story, right? In context, and I forget the exact verse, but in context, Jesus was saying Before you judge, make sure that you're not guilty of the same behavior in context.
[00:31:06]
This is where we get the log and the spec idea, right? That's right. Before you judge the spec in someone else's eye, make sure you've removed the log from your own. Note that he didn't say, Don't ever judge. He presupposes that we're all making judgments because Jesus, of course, you know, uh uh, he had a clear vision probably.
[00:31:32]
No, absolutely the clearest throughout human history of what these objective standards are, and he knew what was closer to the standard and what was further away from the standard. And he knew about the ways that the creator God, right, designed us for flourishing. And these outcomes you talk about. right?
[00:31:56]
Our behaviors need to match up with our design. And some might say evolutionary design, some might say like a created design. I say it doesn't matter, but there's some purpose, right? And so this idea of judging and objective standards, we all live in the same reality. And yet, of course, we, you know, we perceive it maybe differently, and there's some subjectivity for sure.
[00:32:21]
We can't deny it, but I just, I love the idea of stripping away, you know, the biases as best we can. And just looking at, like, what is the objective reality here? Are we closer to it or further away from it? And then in terms of like behavior stuff, like how do humans flourish? Those are just such interesting questions. They are.
[00:32:43] Dr. Nate Salah
And I'm so glad you brought that up because you think about, and I'm glad you brought up Jesus's, his mandate if you will, and the objective reality. If you've got a plank in your eye, right, how can you even perceive objective reality? Right? I think that's an important distinction. Yeah. And so when, when we're talking about this judge, not yes, Lee, be let e be judged.
[00:33:10]
Removing the plank or the log, or whatever you wanna call it. It's a metaphor for clarity in some ways. Now you can, You can make the argument that it's a metaphor for. Not being hypocritical as well.
[00:33:26] Jeremy Smith
I think it's layered. I think you're onto something.
[00:33:28] Dr. Nate Salah
Precisely. Yeah. I mean, and that's, Jesus is certainly a layered guy, right?
[00:33:33]
And so, and he's very strategic by the way, you know, Jesus, I call it, you know, strategic love. That's Jesus is one of his tools in his tool belt, if you will, to really get at the heart, if you will, of what's going on in our own lives. And so goes back to, This certainty addiction. I mean, I'm so glad you brought up that, that phrase, because it, it also goes back to, like, can you be certain that you don't have ambiguity or clouded vision in terms of what your objective reality might look like?
[00:34:09]
And so, I mean, that's a wonderful question to answer because I think it brings us to a place of humility and even meekness in a sense because then we can. You know, I don't have all the answers, but I want to have. I'm a seeker of truth. Interestingly, as you know, the phrase, The truth, the truth will set you free.
[00:34:32]
Some of our listeners might have heard this phrase before on the show, and if they've read it, and probably, I mean, millions of people probably knows this phrase, whether you're a member of faith or. , but of course, we know who said it, right? Jesus said it, and it was in the eighth chapter. Matthew. It's interesting.
[00:34:48]
So if we're seekers of truth and we've gotta remove the plank or the log from our eye so that we can have a clarity of vision so that we can actually see, you know, he's got this four-part process that he lays out in the eighth chapter, Matthew. First, it's, You must abide my word and make my words your home.
[00:35:05]
In other words, spend time with me. So spend time with someone who knows. Then you become a disciple, a student, right? So if you spend some time with someone long enough, you become a student. And then I think this is where the Schaeffers come in by inviting people into their home in a community. So they're fellowshipping.
[00:35:25]
And of course, if they have wisdom to impart, then the person invited to spend time with them then becomes a student, which is exactly what Jesus is saying here, and then you'll know the truth. So that's step three, actually. So step one is spend time with me. Step two. Is then you become a student. Step three is you will know the truth.
[00:35:46]
In other words, you'll be able to see clearly what truth is, and then the truth will set you free. Mm.
[00:35:51] Jeremy Smith
I think that's a great strategy. I hear the early, maybe the beginning stages of a book here. Nate, what do you think? Come on, Brother. Hey. It, it's so powerful. It is powerful and, and about it's so funny too cause we were just kind of goofing around, riffing in this idea certainty.
[00:36:09]
Addiction sort of popped in my head cuz what of what you mentioned earlier. But when it comes to our students, who in many ways are searching for the truth, right? They, they want to know. does all of this correspond to reality, objective reality? Right. And um, and we can talk about things like certainty and certainty addiction and, and I think a lot of Christians, but I would say just a lot of people in general, like they're searching for certainty.
[00:36:37]
But that's a fool's errand, in my opinion, because of. Nature of, of, of just how we're wired and the limitations of what we can know and how we know it. And, and so I, I try to gear people, or sorry, uh, like maybe reroute or redirect people to use different language. Cause I feel like there, I mean, what can we even be certain of?
[00:36:59]
Right? I thought that I was gonna get here on time. And then, like I told you, I took the wrong turn, and I ended up, you know, miles away before I realized. So, so what are we certain of? Am I certain that this chair's gonna hold me when I sit in it? Am I certain that my parents love me? Am I certain that my parents are even my parents?
[00:37:19]
You know, am I certain that I'm not just a brain in a jar somewhere? I mean, again, it it, you can get into absurdity. What I like to do for young people and even for adults, and I know you've probably had this conversation with people before, is like to say, Okay, forget the word certainty. Maybe let's think in terms of possibility, plausibility, and probability.
[00:37:42]
Because there's a lot more humility in that. Yeah. In those categories, I think. Would you agree with that?
[00:37:48] Dr. Nate Salah
I would agree. In fact, it wasn't until I got to academia that I found the most widely used word in all of academia, and that suggest, Hmm. In most academia, when someone is writing on a proposition or a proposal or an idea, Almost generally, and there's other words that are used as well.
[00:38:12]
But you know, we suggest, Mm, and I think that is the point of humility. I'm gonna suggest that this is a position of truth, a position of merit. And when you suggest, you take out the idea that there is no other option with this. But I think the suggestion also invites counter suggestion. Mm-hmm. . And if we're to be learned and growing, wouldn't we welcome a counter suggestion? Because that may help us to better understand a situation when it's coming from a position of objective. Mm-hmm. reality. And that, I think. Is that difficult to do? I mean, what do you see in youth camp? Yes. Okay. ? Yes. Big, Big, yes. Capital, all caps.
[00:39:06] Jeremy Smith
I think it's difficult, and there's so many factors, right? So we can talk about echo chambers, we can talk about our cultural moment, We can talk about tribalism and psychology. You know, there's a lot of things that I think these days are maybe aggravating. Our tendency to be like open-minded or accepting of opinions that are different than ours. And I hope this is the direction you were hoping we go. But I think that a couple of things.
[00:39:38]
There's a counselor that was really impactful in my life, like just a, it was like a real formative time with a professional for me and, and I used to be a guy who probably was addicted to certainty or more specifically, I was addicted to the idea of being right about just about everything, right? And what he helped me to understand, and I still use this principle to this day, and I try to teach it to young people too, and also to their parents and their pastors, or I should say this expert said to me, Jeremy, he said, Is it possible that two different people with two different positions, or let's say opinions could have arrived at those positions and opinions in similar ways.
[00:40:30]
And I'm like, maybe, yeah, that sounds possible. Like, you know, tell me more. And he said, Well, think about it. And at this stage in my life, I was actually pretty divisive when it came to like the finer points of different theological arguments and whatnot. And, and I still, I enjoy those conversations, but I'm so much more relaxed now and in large part because of this guy's advice.
[00:40:52]
So, So anyway, that's a context. And he said, Jeremy, is it possible that these people you disagree with? On this issue, is it possible that they reach their conclusion by one, thinking, two, reading their Bibles, three, listening to people that they respect, four, praying it through, right? Like really asking God to shed light on this matter, and he just went down this list, right?
[00:41:23]
And I knew what he was. And I'm reluctant to say, Yeah, I guess that's possible. Probable even that they reached their conclusion in that way. And then, of course, the question to me was, how did you reach your conclusion, Jeremy? Well, I did all those things too. And he says, you know, see what I'm saying here?
[00:41:44]
He says, Jeremy, he says, Um, you can and sometimes should disagree with someone's position. But where you can lock arms and empathize and even respect this other person is by looking at the way that they arrived at their position. Cuz you have so much in common in terms of how you got there, even if you came to different conclusions.
[00:42:13]
He says, if you can learn to appreciate the way people reach conclusions, he said, Helps with like empathy, you know, and just, it's a good relational starting point, he said, but two, that now you, you have this common ground where maybe you can change their mind, maybe they can even change your mind, which is fun, right?
[00:42:33]
And yeah. So that was, yeah, life-changing for me, Nate, it really was.
[00:42:39] Dr. Nate Salah
No, that speaks, that speaks the counterside is I have to lose. when someone else wins. And I don't think that's necessarily the case. I think it can always be a win-win if we can simply understand where someone else is coming from and real, have real, true dialogue.
[00:43:00]
And you know, what does that look like? Because we're in a tough time societally in the United States, where we're so polarized in so many ways. Go to social media and see that there's positions that people take. Any desire whatsoever to, as you stated, to learn, to empathize, to simply understand how that position was made.
[00:43:26]
And I lament because there's so much more, there's more possibilities, as you said, to expanding our understanding. The other side of that is, well, maybe I feel as though if I do that, then I’ll lose my identity, I'll lose my foundation, my rock. And it's an uncomfortable place to be in.
[00:43:52] Jeremy Smith
Mm. I think that I love the way, uh, we're tracking here because just from my own story, right, a lot of it was hinged on, or let's say anchored to, well, I'll just come out and say it was pride.
[00:44:09]
It was pride in my own ability to see things correctly. To think correctly. Right. And in some ways, I was roping my lasso around like the wrong star. And Christians, you know, would, would probably, and Jews would call this idolatry, right? Like when you make something even a good thing, the ultimate. Right.
[00:44:38]
And in that case, for me, I think what, what I was making, the ultimate thing, what I was worshiping, was really my rightness or my ability to discern like truth or right from wrong. And, and while, um, you know, certainly it's important for us to attempt to discern right and to learn truth and the difference between what's true and what's false.
[00:44:59]
Like my, uh, and my ultimate sort of trust was in me and not in something outside of me. Right. God, You know, really would be the ultimate hope. And there's this, you know, this humility that comes with realizing, like Paul the Apostle, who arguably has a lot more insight into a lot of things, but definitely, Christianity than maybe you or I.
[00:45:25]
Right? And, and Paul the apostle says, You know, on this side of eternity, We see through a mirror dimly or a glass darkly. Right? Like it's cloudy. Nobody has certainty. Right. And yet, Paul, and I don't think you and I certainly, we would never say there's no such thing as objective truth. Right? Right. It's there, but we have to look at it through a glass darkly.
[00:45:55]
Yeah. And I think that that just, there's something about that willingness, that humility to say, I think my view corresponds to that objective truth. I do. I really do. I think it corresponds to reality, but there could be aspects of it that I'm getting really wrong, or maybe I don't see it clearly because, again, I see through a glass dimly or a glass dark light. Yeah. Isn't that's so powerful?
[00:46:25] Dr. Nate Salah
No, it really speaks because that, that pride piece. And even the idolatry piece. I mean, I know I'm thinking of, and I'm sure others listening and thinking, Oh yeah, that's, I can trace back a a point in my life where I was idolizing the wrong thing, or as you said, rap, you know, putting a rope around the wrong star and it really hit me.
[00:46:47]
This, what you're talking about, really hit. When I read about Jesus, and there were others who were talking about certificates of divorce, and it just floored me because in it he was talking about why, uh, Moses gave a certificate of divorce, and he said, The reason Moses gave you that laws because of the hardness of your hearts.
[00:47:14]
And it's like, Whoa, man, it's my heart hard?
[00:47:21]
And Jesus just breaks it wide open, and he's like, You know, you gotta examine that heart of yours because you might think that you're doing the right thing, but you don't know that you still have that plank in your eye. Mm. You don't have clarity. You don't have the objectivity. I wanna free you. I wanna liberate you.
[00:47:43]
Yes. That's what it hit me. And I was like, Wow, how many things do I think I'm doing for the right reasons? But my heart is so hard I can't even see. I can't even let anything in that is pure enough. And I believe price love is that purity to give me the humility and the compassion, not just for one person, but for everyone.
[00:48:11]
I mean, you know, it doesn't say, you know, we, we see John three 16 all the time. It doesn't say for God so loved some people, you know, and that compassion, you know, I believe that Jesus wants us to share in that compassion. . And that's why he says the harvest is plenty, but the workers are few. Right? Ask the Lord the harvest to send workers.
[00:48:31]
And interestingly, the few verses before that, in the ninth chapter Matthew, where Jesus sees the crowds, and he sees that they're helpless and harassed. Mm. And then the has the passion on them.
[00:48:41] Jeremy Smith
Passion on them.
[00:48:43] Dr. Nate Salah
Yeah. So when you see people who are helpless and harassed, especially in your community, especially the adolescents moving into adulthood, I mean, they're vulnerable.
[00:48:54]
Because it's now a time where they're beginning to have their self-identity develop, they're beginning to have awareness of there's potential for this person that I might follow them. There's, I may not follow this person. They're in a often of discovery. So there's gonna be, and when you're in discovery, there's gonna be missteps, right?
[00:49:18]
That's anybody and every. But there, are they given enough margin at the same time? How much margin do we give before there are decisions made that are in Alterable? Right. You can't unrecoverable happens every single day, sadly. Yeah. But I believe it starts with an attitude of, of compassion if we're gonna follow what Jesus is doing. And that's where I think this, the certainty addiction starts to fall apart because if I have true compassion, I don't know what you're going through. I mean, I really, deep down, I don't know, but I want to help that changes everything.
[00:50:01] Jeremy Smith
Yes. Especially when it's coupled with humility, right? So just to bring this thing full circle, that compassion, which is sort of the outward projection, like this is what I feel towards that person.
[00:50:14]
But then that humility, that's the inward feeling of. , I'm no better. Like given the same situation, the same life experiences, the same genetics, same family system, same unfair circumstances, like I'd probably be making those same bad choices. Right? That humility, that piece of you. You know, Luther, I wanted to say this earlier, The great reformer, you know, Martin Luther.
[00:50:39]
I'm not Lutheran, but I, I'm certainly informed, you know, by Luther and his theology, and he had this term, and I forget the fancy way of saying it, but it was essentially simultaneous sinner and saint on this side of eternity. This isn't discounting our hope, right? In total perfection, restoration completion.
[00:51:01]
That's the Christian hope, but we don't see it right now. We see glimpses of it. We get a four taste of it. This is, you know, Christianity 1 0 1, but when you're talking about us being aware of our own motives, right, And, and I always, even when I think I'm on the right track, that theological idea. But also the self-awareness and this humility says, Jeremy, you're always going to have mixed motives even on your best day.
[00:51:31]
Your best intentions are sometimes, oftentimes, probably, always kind of mixed with and overlapping with selfish intentions or selfish, you know, or not-so-good motivations. And the ratios can be, you know, different, right? Even if it's 99% positive and 1% negative, I still need to be aware of that propensity for, or that tendency towards the sin, right?
[00:51:57]
Missing the mark or less than perfect. And that, you know, I mean, that's the basis for humility, but it's also the basis for the gospel. Right. You cannot, you cannot be a Christian without that piece of the pie. Right. That I am not perfect. I have blown it in every conceivable way, and I need help. Yeah.
[00:52:19] Dr. Nate Salah
Yeah, a hundred percent.
[00:52:21]
And humility, I believe, is the sy canine on, or however you pronounce it, but the essential, if you will, of leadership. Yes. Because if we walk in humility, here's how CS Lewis puts it. Well, it has been. He has been misquoted. It's a good misquote. The misquote is on Humility is the humble person. Let's see.
[00:52:40]
Here's not thinking less of themselves. They're thinking of themselves less often. That's a good misquote. But the actual breadth of it, as CS Lewis puts, and this is a paraphrase, is that humble person is not thinking about humility. The humble person is not thinking of him or herself at all. That's a lot different than not thinking less of yourself, right?
[00:53:01]
Yeah. You're not even thinking of yourself because you're focused on the cause. It's the ego is out of the equation, and the cause is at the forefront. And so if the cause is truth, if the cause is objectivity, if the cause is liberty, in thought, indeed in mind and direction, and as you said, flourishing through wisdom.
[00:53:27]
Then it's not about me. I like how Rick Warren actually put it in the very first sentence of his book, Purpose of Life. It's not about You. I like that because it, that's where the humility and then it's inviting because suddenly this relationship has changed. Let's not focus on me as a leader. Let's not even focus on you as a follower.
[00:53:47]
Let's focus on a cause that we both share passionately pursuing. Yeah. Which I think is probably a great place to, And then have another time with the both of us. I mean, we're just getting, we are just getting started.
[00:54:04] Jeremy Smith:
It feels like we've only been talking for like 20 minutes.
[00:54:06] Dr. Nate Salah
I know. And it's been a whole hour.
[00:54:07]
That's great, Jeremy. Uh, I can't say how much I enjoy our time together. I mean, I'm glad we're having this conversation on air because our conversations, I think, can help someone. I think today, someone has been blessed, and uh, I'm just so thankful that you're doing what you do because you're doing a good work.
[00:54:24] Jeremy Smith
Thanks, man. Likewise, man. Every time we chat, I always leave encouraged and a challenged in a good way.
[00:54:32] Dr. Nate Salah
Yeah. Before we go, I have a question for you. So one of these days will all. You will be. I will be on the great summit if you will, the end of the journey on this side of eternity. If you could look down and see all that's been done as you're on the summit that you've accomplished and you've done in your life, and you see all those that you who you've impacted, what's one thing that you would say that you would want them to have said about you?
[00:55:02] Jeremy Smith
Wow. So if I hear your question correctly, I'm, let's just say, on my deathbed. Yeah. And I know I don't have much more time on this earth, and I have the opportunity to say something to everybody I've ever impacted or, or I'm asking, what do I hope they're all saying about me? Yes, the latter. Okay. What do I hope they're all saying about me?
[00:55:26]
Wow. I mean, the sort of like, I don't know, like catchy one that comes to mind is, I hope they would say that. Uh, he instilled in me a confident curiosity about the world. I heard that term from a, a, a scientist actually at Wash U, so I didn't make that up, but I thought it was so good. Confident. Curiosity, if you're confident in what you believe. You can be curious about other people's beliefs, and without, you know, it's, you're safe, like you to be mean or defensive.
[00:56:03]
So that's the catchy thing. The more personal thing, cuz this is just something that's on my heart a lot lately, is as someone who has, you know, a tiny bit of influence in our city, and I've got some folks in my network, and you know, one or two people listen to what I have to say, I hope that they say of me.
[00:56:20]
Yeah, he, um, impacted me a great deal. But the way he impacted his wife and his kids was far beyond anything he ever did for us. You know, like we always knew that we were second to his family. I've been really convicted about that lately, Nate. It's so much easier right? to have these kinds of conversations with the people that don't know you that well.
[00:56:52]
Yeah. And to be well respected and well thought of, and to be an agent of change and the person that maybe changed someone's perspective or opinion. And I want to do more of that in my own living room, brother. Yeah, man, I really do.
[00:57:09] Dr. Nate Salah
Well, you are on your way. I'm so glad to have you. Yeah, yeah. I love you, man.
[00:57:16]
I love you. Me too. This is great. I just, um, we gotta do it again.
[00:57:20] Jeremy Smith
All right. Next time I'll show up on time. . God will work. That'll work.
[00:57:27] Dr. Nate Salah
Well, my friend. We did it again. I'm so glad you joined me on this episode of A Call to Leadership. If you've been with me on the show listening in, you'll know this. But if you're new, you may not know that I created a free course for you, that you don't need to provide an email address.
[00:57:45]
You don't need to go anywhere. But to stay right here in the podcast, I created the. Are six episodes of the podcast because I wanted you to have the kind of value that you need to take advantage of to thrive as a leader. So if you haven't done that yet, listen to episodes one through six, and I'll see you on the next episode. I'm Dr. Nate Salah, and this is a Call to Leadership.