EP146: From Catholic Priest to Leadership Coach - Examining Crises in Leadership, Part 1 with Matthew Brackett

In this episode, we have a fascinating guest with an extraordinary journey. Matthew Brackett joins us today to share his remarkable transition from the Catholic priesthood to becoming a highly respected leadership coach. Pay close attention as he generously imparts valuable leadership insights throughout our conversation!

Key takeaways to listen for

• Insights on leadership learned from Matthew's time as a Catholic priest
• The path to becoming a priest and ways to leverage challenges for personal growth
• Expectations on priesthood and unique privileges of ministering to people 
• A look into the abusive side of faith and leadership
• How the Catholic Church deals with abuse of authority within its leadership
• Essential characteristics that make a leader influential and methods to develop them

Resources Mentioned In This Episode

• Saturday Night Fever | Prime Video
• EP132: Mastering Positional Power, How Leaders Can Leverage Their Authority for Positive Change
• Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor E. Frankl | Kindle, Paperback, and Hardcover 

About Matthew Brackett
Matthew Brackett is a global leadership coach passionate about positive leadership and influence. He dreams of utilizing his gifts, experience, and knowledge to impact and transform lives through leadership.

With over 30 years of experience in leadership positions and leadership development in six countries across languages and multiple cultures, Matthew has a wealth of expertise. Additionally, he has served as a special Staff Officer and Chaplain in the United States Navy, working alongside both Sailors and Marines. These experiences have granted him extensive knowledge and insight into collaborating with diverse communities and leaders around the globe.

Connect with Matthew

• Website: Brackett Alliance
• LinkedIn: Matthew Brackett 

Connect With Us
Master your context with real-results leadership training!
To learn more, visit our website at www.greatsummit.com.

For tax, bookkeeping, or accounting help, contact Dr. Nate’s team at www.theincometaxcenter.com or send an email to info@theincometaxcenter.com.

Follow Dr. Nate Salah on his Social Media

• Linkedin: Nate Salah, Ph.D.
• Instagram: @natesalah 
• Facebook: Nate Salah
• TikTok: @drnatesalah
• Clubhouse: @natesalah

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

[00:00:00] Matthew Bracket
Because we're in these roles, we always want to be there for other people. I've seen this everywhere, but the inability of leaders to look at themselves. That's why I say self-awareness is one of the greatest assets of leadership and the lack of is one of the greatest leadership liabilities.

[00:00:16] Dr. Nate Salah
Hello, my friend, and welcome to this Wednesday episode of A Call to Leadership. I'm Dr. Nate Salah, your host, and I'm so glad you are here. Every Wednesday, we have an expert join us in a different area of leadership, and this is an important episode on the crisis in leadership, in community, in family, in civic circles, in industry. It's true, there is a crisis in leadership and we really need transparent, vulnerable discussion to uncover these obstacles, move forward into opportunity. So I've invited a very special guest on the program for a two part series to address this leadership crisis, a former Catholic priest who served for 30 years in various roles in and out of the Vatican, Matthew Bracket. who will share parts of his evolving leadership story with courage, with compassion, with inspiration? Let's listen in. Matthew Bracket, so glad to have you on the show, all the way from Mexico City. 

[00:01:16] Mattew Bracket
That's right, Nate. Great to be here and share the mic, share the screen with you, with your audience. 

[00:01:21] Dr. Nate Salah
Yeah, man, it's been so wonderful getting to know you. And then the bonus blessing is not only do we have kindred spirits on Our desire to help people, but we are also very focused on the academic and of course, applied concepts of leadership. You just completed a degree. Am I right? 

[00:01:40] Mattew Bracket
I did, yes, a master's in the psychology of leadership at Penn State. So yes, I don't have a PhD like yourself. 

[00:01:46] Dr. Nate Salah
You're fresh, man. You know, that thing about when you're just getting done with any degree, right? Your brain is so fresh with all of the concepts and everything that you've been going through. And we've talked about this a little bit and I want to talk a little bit about your background, but just to get the listener kind of primed for our conversation. This conversation around what you and I have both seen from an academic perspective and a practitioner perspective is crises. It's been said that leadership has been in crisis for many years. In fact, when I started doing my educational journey, this was the first thing I learned is that leadership is in crisis. I'm like, could it really be in crisis? And then the more I learned about the different areas of leadership that are in fact in crises, whether it's their business crises, you see this in corporate America and corporate world.

[00:02:30]
It's Companies with scandals and issues across the swath of history you see it in politics right you see all different kind of political crises that people we don't have to even go through examples people just can imagine and understand that every day they're experiencing a disparage in what's expected and what's actually delivered in families and in communities in religion all these different areas and so you and I and many of us in this camp we want to stand in the gap we want to be able to you Not only share encouragement and hope, but also provide tools and resources to the listener who says, you know what, I want to be a part of the change that people need to thrive and to serve so profoundly that we can cause the kind of transformation that people will get behind and reach a better future state. So I know that that's your heart and I know that's my heart too, but that's not where you started. 

[00:03:26] Mattew Bracket
That's right. Where did you start? I started in small town, New England, the 10th of 13 children. We were educated and an atmosphere of a lot of generosity. My parents, very generous. They taught us to be generous. They taught us also to want to make a difference in the world. And because of our feedback, we're also to make a difference in time and in eternity. And the side note to that is my dad died not too long ago and one of our last conversations was about, you know, he had a lot of children and he said that was the biggest difference that he could make in the world and in eternity because his kids will live forever, which really struck me as a very profound phrase.

[00:04:06]
A lot of generosity and making a difference. And so that led me to making a decision to go to seminary and to being in the space of formal ministry as a Catholic priest, where I was for 30 years, um, 10 years of training and 20 years of ministry. And part of that also has Navy chaplain. Then I stepped away from that two years ago, did this degree that we just mentioned and started my own practice around leadership, really coaching people in leadership roles. At that intersection between the personal and professional so that they can lead better, love better and live better. Um, and I do it through the personal coaching, mentorship and consulting roles. And then also through education conferences, speaking engagements, workshops and things like that. 

[00:04:45] Dr. Nate Salah
Wonderful. What a varied experience. Yeah. 

[00:04:48] Mattew Bracket
Well, and I was ministry brought me to so many countries, which was also very fortunate. I was in Italy and for a number of years in Ireland as well in Columbia and Chile, I was able to work with and lead people from. I would say all the continents, and then also just from, I don't know, 30 nationalities all at one time, just leading different people. So a lot of international, intercultural experience. So even that the diversity space is very important for me because of my experience. I guess why do I do this? And why do I do what I do is because I'm very passionate about the human person. I'm very passionate and in love with the complex beauty of the human person. Or the beautiful complexities, however you want to say it. And then that shows up in leadership. When I speak about leadership, how we lead ourselves, how we lead those around us. In other words, how we exercise positive influence towards reaching goals with those around us. And then how we lead in organizational or institutional contexts.

[00:05:45] Dr. Nate Salah
That's beautiful. And you mentioned the priesthood and I'm sure listeners. Interestingly, I don't know if you ever get this or not, but of course, you remember the generation where we remember the movie Saturday Night Fever. If you recall that movie, John Travolta, right? The epic movie. And of course, one of the characters had a brother. Who was a priest and he was no longer a priest and everybody was sort of fascinated with this individual who is no longer a priest, right? And so not to spend too entirely much time on it, but I'm sure someone listening is interested in your journey as it pertains to leadership. You know, what did being a Catholic priest teach you about leadership perhaps in ways that were positive and also perhaps ways that You learn from things not to do, as you teach this important aspect of the human condition.

[00:06:32] Mattew Bracket
Right. Thank you, Nate. Well, there's so much we could say there. I'm very passionate about leadership and about the human experience, because leadership will always be part of our human experience, and always has been, as long as humans have existed, and it always will be. We're not going to change that. And leadership, positive, healthy, wholesome leadership, is very life giving in whatever circumstances it happens. And whatever context, whether it be personal and professional, but also leadership, when it's not healthy, when it's dysfunctional or to the extreme of toxic, it is very destructive. Then when we bring that into certain contexts, whether it be family contexts. Whether it be faith-based context, the life that can be brought from good leadership is so much more, but also the destruction that touches the deeper fibers of the human person.

[00:07:22]
So that's why when people have experienced dysfunction in family, it touches them in a much deeper way. When people experience dysfunction in faith. And in faith institutions, patches, the deeper fibers of their being and of the relationship with the transcendent and with themselves. So I, that, that also gets me very passionate because it's so important, right? And in those environments, if we were to speak about those two, we could all speak about the political, which has such an influence on the social context. So not all of us as human beings, but families, that's another reality that we're always experienced as human beings and family. These are sort of sacred environments where we are meant to be nurtured and to grow. So when the opposite happens, it's very hurtful. Yeah. It's very hurtful. And so, going back to your question, there's so much we could talk about being creepy. It does, it does cause a lot of curiosity in people, you know, because then I worked in Rome and I was, you know, very involved in the Vatican. And so people, that creates a lot of curiosity and intrigue around that.

[00:08:19] Dr. Nate Salah
I just learned recently that, as I understand it, the Vatican is the smallest country. It is the planet. I didn't know that my son, who's a homeschool kid, he's like, dad, did you know what the smallest country was? And I'm like, I don't know. So it's interesting. Is it like an 8th of a square mile or something like that?

[00:08:34] Mattew Bracket
And so, yes, I was involved in that. You kind of get an inside look into just that. So that causes a lot of curiosity. And then living as a priest is a very unique lifestyle. That's probably maybe a story for another day, but there's so many lessons. That's probably something I want to bring to a podcast or I want to bring to my own lives. About what life was as a priest, what I did, the preparation for the priest, because really, I went through years, a lot of academic, not only academic, but spiritual training, years of living in silence, years of deep meditation, introspection, really growing in the life of the spirit. But without getting into that, there's so much that we could talk about that. So your question was about leadership, I suppose, as a priest. 

[00:09:15] Dr. Nate Salah
Yeah, as a priest, as far as some key leadership lessons. But even then, I mean, I think it's a good place to start in terms of preparation. I mean, leadership involves much preparation. And someone listening today recognizes that, boy, I am not in a position of influence. Right, because we know that leadership involves influence and there's preparation involved to become a person of influence and there's discovery involved their self-awareness and reflection involved. It's not a light journey that you took. I mean, this is a commitment unlike. Most others, I would suspect. 

[00:09:51] Mattew Bracket
Yes, it is. And we think about, we live in community, at least I was part of a religious order, you know, Jesuits, Franciscans, Dominicans, that's what I mean by the word religious order. We live in community with the vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience, which are taking very seriously and imitation and supposed imitation of Christ. All right, so first of all, a stepping in my path, my journey, I was had a lot of minor leadership role to things. Like I said, I was really grown into leadership. And, but I wouldn't say it was necessarily intentional. I was put into these minor leadership roles and there was the vision, although they didn't buy it, they didn't tell me the vision was they saw me as high potential and so they would give you these responsibilities and kind of give you opportunities so that you would grow into more senior roles.

[00:10:37]
And which is essentially what happened, but I never really received formal preparation for that as such. And we can see that in a lot of spaces in the corporate. I see it in the work in the military. We can see it in faith base. We can see it in so many sectors is people end up because of the traditional sort of promotional scheme. You end up in these roles. Without the necessary preparation, it's a blind spot that a lot of people have, we sort of put people in these positions because we need them. I coach people in leadership roles, and I was just talking to somebody else. It's kind of interesting because I take it as it's a sort of a compliment that they want to put me in this role, but it's also a necessity in an emergency. It's kind of nice that they want me to do this. And then so a lot of people just step up, right? And they don't ask questions. They don't say, wait a second, because they could go sideways. And then who's the one that usually pays the price for go sideways. It's that individual. It's not the company or the organization, right?

[00:11:35]
So people that really have to stand up for themselves, say, all right, if you wanted me to take this role and I thank you. Or seeing me as having the potential to do this. Well, what are you going to do to help me prepare better to live this role? So that doesn't always happen. So someone takes it as a compliment as this is all this is great. It's sort of a promotion, so I will step into it. But the organization sometimes doing it because they're just, they're in an urgent or emergency situation where they need someone to occupy that space. Yeah, so there's not a lot of intentional growth and I'm not, I know in a lot of organizations, there is a lot of wonderful intentional growth of people. There's a lot of development of high potentials. There's a lot of intentional conscientious leadership development. So I don't mean to kind of say across the board that this is what happens. 

[00:12:19] Dr. Nate Salah
Yeah. Well, it's interesting too. You bring up the family earlier and the preparation piece. I'm curious what your family support was as you entered into this season of preparing and entering into the priesthood, right?

[00:12:33] Mattew Bracket
But we grew up in this is very interesting. It's interesting. You bring this up because I'm family, my family, we had a big family, but my parents were very intentional and conscious about growing us, educating us from responsibility. Um, They bought the house. They owned it, but we took care of it. And so, and it was this sort of like this co ownership for taking care of the gardens, taking care of the lawns. Then they got animals, you know, they got two horses and sheep and chickens. And it was, but not because we needed it, but because it was a way that they would educate their children and being responsible. Right, and also creating this playground where their kids, you know, where they wouldn't have to go to look anywhere else to kind of have fun than a few acres that we could use our creative minds to just make everything there into a playground with the trees and tree forts and tree houses and animals.

[00:13:22]
But from a very young age, we were taking care of these animals. We were shoveling snow, we were cutting grass. Then on the weekends, we had to work somewhere else in an orchard or a strawberry farm and things like that. I was working probably from the age of eight, you know, being carted off to a strawberry farm to weed and then to prune and then to pick strawberries. My older siblings worked at an orchard from very young ages, so. The whole sense of forming us in responsibility, and I think when I look at all my siblings, everyone's been very successful in their jobs partly because of that, that education. 

[00:13:53] Dr. Nate Salah
And so discipline and your formation of the responsibility, it seemed as, this is something probably that many, someone listening needs to hear this, including myself, because we live in a world today, as you know, many people want to. Give less responsibility and of course, then people have more sense of entitlement at times. I grew up in a very similar environment, except much smaller family. My mom was single mom for a long time and just the 2 of us and the same thing. My mother was very focused on responsibility and working together and that created ethos if you will write principles based on a contribution. Significance and not waiting for someone else to make the decision for me to actually go and do and complete. Is that similar to your experience? 

[00:14:44] Mattew Bracket
I think so, yes, I would say so, and going back to what you said, it was, I think people that go through, my parents went live through the depression, right? But there's a lot of parents that they want to, I don't want my children to go through what I went through. So they kind of bring it, then they swing to the other extreme, which is ends up being destructive in my view or unhealthy. Yes, maybe to give them better circumstances. Don't take away the opportunities that they have to learn everything that you've learned. Yes. I thought I was speaking to you. 

[00:15:11] Dr. Nate Salah
No, no. I'm with you. Yes. And I think we can distinguish. learning, discipline, responsibility from struggle. People say, well, I don't want my kids to struggle the way I did. That's admirable. However, there are some benefits to struggle if we orchestrate it in a healthy and positive way, in a familial environment. My son, for example, wanted to start a video game to sell. And as a listener to may have heard this on previous episode. And he said, dad, I'm going to do really well because you're a successful entrepreneur. So, well, that's not a guarantee. Even successful entrepreneurs don't always get it right. So he ran his video game and he had developers and he had all these different aspects of it.

[00:15:50]
I said, I'm going to help you and I'm going to teach you. There's aspects of your business that you're going to learn on your own and you're going to grow and there's going to be pluses and minuses. And anyway, so the project dot one didn't work. It failed. And he was very upset and he said, dad, I don't know why this fail. I said, well, the project failed because it was not designed to succeed. It was designed to teach you, it was designed to teach you about some of the mechanics of entrepreneurship and business. And so the things he learned, I asked him the top things he learned. And he said, well, one is everything with your contractors, get it in writing. Don't ever give payment before the work is complete. No matter how long you think it's going to take double or triple it, no matter how much money you think you'll need double or triple it. And so he's going down this litany list. I said, son, this is MBA level education here, right? For the 600 I invested in your company as your angel investor, it was worth every single penny.

[00:16:42]
And he's never forgotten the responsibility involved in that. I want to make sure we frame that properly, right? Because that's the key. The key is, you know, how can I teach the next generation or whoever I'm leading? To embrace not only take ownership, but believe in the potential you mentioned the opportunity because I do believe in equal opportunity. I don't believe in equal outcome because outcomes vary no matter what the opportunities are as your outcome as far as different stages of life, right? It's your outcomes have been different than others and to bring this full circle back to. the movement into priesthood. I mean, you've got a monumental commitment. You've learned discipline. You've learned responsibility. So you go into it. What were some of your expectations going into the priesthood? 

[00:17:25] Mattew Bracket
I'm into ministry as such. I have to do some remembering my expectations, but I have to say from day one, even just before I joined, some of my expectations was that it was going to be very challenging. And it was. But it was also very beautiful. But some things went beyond my expectations as regards the impact that you can make in people's lives. First of all, the access that you have to people's lives, which then you're sort of given this access, but then to maintain that access in the environment of great trust. And that's not a given, that's something that you have to earn through the quality of ministry and services that you offer. And I think that the amount of experiences I had, just being invited into many people's lives, and usually you're invited into people's lives in the bright spots and in the darker spots.

[00:18:15]
To truly walk on that sacred ground. I got moved to different countries. And so it was just the cultural experience, ministering in different cultures, you're not there as a tourist, but really you become part of the fabric, part of the cultural fabric. And that was also very fascinating, you know, language, and then just everything, the idiosyncrasies of every culture and learning how to minister to people in each culture, because it changes from culture to culture, from language to language. I knew it was going to be hard, but it also went beyond my expectations in regards to the vast amount of experiences and the people that I've met. And I really very fortunate in so many ways. And when in that position, you're also invited into a lot of spaces. You know, I'm, I talked about the Vatican and I was at the filming of the passion. Yeah. You had a lot of people in the political and diplomatic and then corporate space because you're the priest. And so now, when I step away from that, then a lot of those doors close, because I'm just nothing. 

[00:19:11] Dr. Nate Salah
You mentioned something that's really important, and that's the word access. And I love how you describe it because you describe it in such a way as it's a privilege and an honor to be invited into access to an individual's life. And this is leadership. Sometimes in different contexts, there's different varying levels, as you know, of access, personal and professional. And I think it's a two way street with access. I think the one part is we are invited to an access into someone's life. And then, of course, as leaders, we also provide access. As guides into a place that perhaps arguably someone who's following would not have access to otherwise in terms of our unique genius or unique giftings as leaders, right? Because each of us will inevitably do leadership, even if it's incrementally different. It's in a different way. It's based on our own.

[00:20:02]
It's based on our own style and our own vision within the parameters and within the foundational requirements of that role with that institution or that group. And so that access piece is such an important part of the conversation on leadership. Right, because we must not gloss over it. We must not take it lightly. And I love how you put in a very, not only succinct, but instrumental position, right? It's an instrumental position of access. And this is back to the crisis of leadership as we unfold this conversation because that access. And you mentioned the word sacred. I would argue that it is, whether it's a religious context, or whether it's a non religious context, it is sacred ground to lead. Am I overstating that? 

[00:20:46] Mattew Bracket
I don't, no. I use the word sacred, I don't want people to think of it as a religious term. I think it's a term that we can kind of relate to anyone, even the people that don't practice any formal or... When you think of something that's sacred, you think of something that's sort of consecrated, sort of like this revered ground that's treated with great respect. And I believe that the human person is that. When we are invited through a leadership role, right, or through ministry, or through family, or whatever, Then into that sacred space, something that we should take very seriously. And so I did, I use this expression, maybe I've never used it before, but because of a role as a priest, but also a role in leadership, you are granted access automatically, but it doesn't mean that you're going to keep that access, right? It's what you do with that, how you treat that influence and that leadership. And I want to go back to something that you asked about priesthood. And this is a negative aspect is a lot of times when I saw people in ministry that wouldn't. Two things. First of all, they felt that they were entitled to that access.

[00:21:48]
And secondly, that they would almost force people or oblige people that because of who I am, I have access to that intimacy. And no, you don't. You also have to earn it. That's the abuse and aspects of faith is where people ministry begin to saying because of who I am, you have to do what I say. And because of who I am, I have kind of control over your life and I have access to you have to share stuff with me. And that puts people because it's in the faith conflict put people under a lot of pressure. On their conscience, which is again, that's sacred and tabernacle in the human person, the fibers of the being of the relationship with the transcendent, then there's guilt and then the shame and all these things that can be used as power over people. That's an example. You asked me about an example in priesthood, right? And there's so many positive things, but how it can be used in a negative way. 

[00:22:40] Dr. Nate Salah
Yeah, indeed. In fact, I just recorded an episode on positional power, legitimate power. Of course, as you, as you know, from your studies, this is very timely because speaking about this from an experiential perspective, that can be easily abused and misused. It's only one power base, but it's one of the weaker ones. Because it's simply based on your position and it's important to have a position, but there are so many other bases of power, which create healthy influence rather than simply that 1 social base of power, right?

[00:23:11] Mattew Bracket
When we're followers, we have, we all respect and obedience to legitimate authority when it's legitimate, when they exercise that authority in the space that is granted to them.

[00:23:22] Dr. Nate Salah
Correct, and based on reciprocation, right? So it's an unwritten contract. And as I understand it between obedience and safety, right? Yeah, give me safety and what we have in our unwritten contract. And I will be obedient to your legitimate. Authority, which I think is important. It's important for the whole. For the functioning of the continuity. 

[00:23:45] Mattew Bracket
Yeah, but it's also, well, while people in legitimate positions, what they can't demand is they can't demand trust. They can't demand that you respect me on the deeper level. Sure. You have to show respect for me outwardly. Right? But deep down, you know, going back to my military experience, I always, you show respect, right? Courtesies custom, the courtesies, even though you may have hated the commanding officer or your, your senior enlisted, right? But. You were respectful to the position, not necessarily to the person. 

[00:24:16] Dr. Nate Salah
Yeah, I'm sure people feel that way about the president. If they're not in the military today, many people say I'm respectful for the position, but I'm not in favor of the individual or perhaps the character traits of any individual president or leader for that matter. 

[00:24:28] Mattew Bracket
Yeah, I think when we talk about the crisis of leadership, I think there's also a crisis of followership. And that's part of the conversation is because of everything. The way leadership always is happens in a context, as you well know, and society changes. And so the model of leadership or the type of leadership also has to adapt to social context and so many other types of content. And that's really the art of leadership is how to adapt and to adapt my leadership skills and to what is needed in this situation, right? Now, because of the way it's the revolution of the 60s and this whole influence on freedom and liberty. Right. There's been a sort of an over influence on that. And so there's more like, especially in the States, you know, it's a very individualistic society, high on individualism, right? High on freedom, high on independence, which was then creates, it makes it very difficult to follow, right?

[00:25:21]
Then people have a hard time following rules. They have a hard time obeying. They have fight on into these structures or constructs in because it's sort of like, I am my own point of reference. In the extreme, that's, that can really lead a society into a lot of chaos because it's what we're calling sort of the dictatorship of relativism. Everyone has their own subjectivism, then everyone just sort of does their own, and so it's chaotic, right? And we can kind of see that a little bit in the country of how things are developing. So that's sort of, there's a social wave of a lot of focus on freedom, on individualism, subjectivism, and all that's well and good, but all that always has to be understood in a broader context. Right. Well, you know, when we say that there's a Statue of Liberty on one side of the country, some people say that there should be a Statue of Responsibility on the other side of the country, right? Because everything sort of weighs between those two things. And also, then with a lot of mistakes in leadership, so there's a focus on individualism, focus on freedom.

[00:26:15]
And then because of poor leadership and abusive leadership, there's a rejection towards And this leads to part of what we could call now that, you know, the crisis of leadership, part of the pieces of that puzzle of the crisis of leadership. And then it's also people being in leadership roles that maybe don't, not maybe, but sometimes don't know how to use their authority in a positive, healthy way. And we can talk about the reasons for that in a bit. 

[00:26:40] Dr. Nate Salah
Yeah, I would love to dive into that. And the priesthood, did you experience that personally? Was that, in terms of individuals, tell me, well I guess I should back up, you said you were at the Vatican, and you were at different places, were you responsible for a parish?

[00:26:55] Mattew Bracket
I helped in parishes, but I was never responsible, I was responsible for seminaries, I was responsible for a lot of priests and seminarians, I ran a house for priests in Rome, which was under the Vatican. You influence people in many other ways, just by the fact that being able to preach, right, speak in public, you have, again, it's a whole other thing, the great responsibility that public speakers have. For their audience, right? And oftentimes that's used perilously, whether it be in the faith space or just in our space, you know, coaching and all the other stuff, leadership stuff. There's so much public speaking, speaking events. And I think people use that stage. Also, it's worth to use that stage so carefully because. People come to listen and they're going to eat it up and if you're not offering and then accurate information, they're going to eat up the inaccurate information and apply it to their lives and went to very, very careful that they, so I didn't work in a parish, but again, you're always, I was always helping them.

[00:27:51]
Parishes work, preaching retreats, a lot of the one on one. So spiritual direction, spiritual orientation, spiritual guidance, spiritual coaching, whatever you want to call it, does that a lot of that. Um, In the formation mode, when you working with people, whether it be priests or seminarians, you have a lot of influence. So, and again, we take that to take that seriously. I didn't finish that sentence to take it very soon. I witnessed a lot of because when you're in an environment where authority is given such importance, but then people also take a vow of obedience, that's a recipe for potential abuse, authority, abuse of conscience, abuse of psychological abuse, and that happened a lot because. People weren't trained properly in the exercise of that authority. 

[00:28:35] Dr. Nate Salah
I'm glad you brought that up. When you look at general authority from a hierarchy, let's just use politics, for example. In a political scheme, you would say, Oh, it's the president's fault that this isn't happening. Of course, we know that many, many aspects of leadership are involved in decision making, or there's an issue within a school system, then, Oh, a superintendent should have noticed it, right? We know that there's many, many pieces of this. And I bring this up as examples to ask the question, How does it work in terms of responsibility for the head of the Catholic Church, the Pope, when these types of issues are happening in the priesthood? Is it the same kind of focus, well, the Pope should be doing more, or is that a farce to even utter that because of the type of obedience that's required in a religious setting?

[00:29:22] Mattew Bracket
Excellent question. I think like our government, there's so many in the church government, there's so many layers, right? There's so many departments that sort of report to. And so, and then a lot of information is filtered on the way up. Right, so not necessarily, but just like, not everything might get to the president, right? And it's the power of those lower filters. They have a lot of power and what they manage information, a lot of responsibility. The same thing happens in the church, but I think when we talk about ownership, I think when we talk about leadership and ownership is when I was in leadership roles, if something happened under my watch, there were mistakes, but even if I wasn't involved, it was mine. Right. The mistake or the problem is mine and that's just the way I viewed it. And I came across that a lot in the military where, and that's why when you look at military, when mistakes are made for the ones that lose their lose command, it's commanding officer, even if they didn't make the mistake, right.

[00:30:15]
Or they. Weren't involved in directly in whatever happened, but they're involved in directly. And so, you know, it's about taking ownership for what happens under me, going back to the church for the political. And I think, you know, whether it be the Pope or the president, I believe that they can always do more, right. And to be proactive in what they do, because they have a huge influence. But oftentimes we can get caught up in the bureaucratical side. And I would even say diplomats, people who are ambassadors. Then you can get cut off in just the diplomatic side and the public relations and the networking and bureaucratic side, and forget that because of your position, you can make such a difference in the world or in a country or in an institution if you are proactive in what you want to do.

[00:31:07] Dr. Nate Salah
Well said. So as you're transitioning and you're a part of this environment, what stage do you start to consider leaving priesthood? And for what reasons? 

[00:31:21] Mattew Bracket
Right, the transitions, I said, transitions happen in life because of dreams because of love or because of pain. Mine had a lot to do with pain. So, in my story, and I think it's something that speaks to a lot of people, we won't go into it now, but just. My whole concept of befriending pain that pain is something that we want to avoid as human beings But it also has it holds so much wisdom for us when we're able to sit in it and listen to it Right, and I think we go back to Franklin his book about the human being in search of meaning It's a lot about that of how what we do how we allow pain to speak to us and to make us better You know, this goes back to the initial part of our conversation around struggle and children and educating children and all that.

[00:32:05]
So it was pain. And I tried to my 1st thing was a pain is telling me that there's something wrong with me. And so I tried for a few years, I tried to figure out what was wrong with me, and I worked on a few things. So there are definitely things I could improve. I could improve on didn't necessarily change. And so it was then brought me to the point where maybe it's. It's the lifestyle that I'm living, it's the commitment that I made, it's the organization that I'm part of. It's all of that, that it just isn't the right place for me. It's very hard for me to really put, I resisted putting that on the table. Just so that, you know, when I think about people that are, maybe have to go through divorce at some point, and it's something that they resist for a long time because it's something that you don't plan on it, you didn't make a decision, a commitment for that then to happen. 

[00:32:45] Dr. Nate Salah
Were you having conversations with other priests about this? I mean, what were, did you have an inner circle did you have? 

[00:32:51] Mattew Bracket
I would say that it all came to a sort of a climatic moment when I started to go, I had a very deep assessment, psychological, mental, and emotional health assessment done. And in that process, and getting the debrief and the feedback and a lot of my assessments was when I realized the gravity of my situation, I was trying to, you know, sort of wash it over and say, everything's good. I'm going to, I'm going to, I can work. There's not that bad as we all do. And a lot of people in leadership roles does not that bad. It's not that bad. And so the ship is sinking and we're still playing the music and everything's good. It was that moment when I had to take ownership that I am not well, I am sick. Mentally, emotionally, spiritual, right? And it was affecting my physical health with depression and just, I felt like I was walking through quicksand every day. So it definitely had physical consequences. So that was a very challenging moment, but it was also a moment of the beginning of, of a path to, to light into life and freedom.

[00:33:52] Dr. Nate Salah
Wow. Yeah. Did you experience, was it a combination of external factors and internal factors that were causing this deep level of internal strife? 

[00:34:03] Mattew Bracket
There were, Yeah, definitely, internal. There was organizational things. I was part of a, inside the Catholic Church, which has its dysfunction, has all sorts of beauty, but has its dysfunction, and then I was part of an organization inside the Catholic Church, which was highly dysfunctional, so I was with them for 30 years. And so that I think when you're part of a dysfunctional organization, you become blinded to a lot of the dysfunction. And so you kind of live it, but at some point it begins to, I think I'm a forward thinking person and I'm an innovative thinker. Right. And that was not, well, it's not welcomed. So you're sort of living in conflict with the organization, with the institution, in that because of the power of the organization, you're made to think that there's something wrong with you or that you're going against the spirit.

[00:34:49]
Or by thinking differently or wanting to do things differently, you're being unfaithful. This is a huge way. So you're living in conflict with that, then that creates conflict with myself. I think because of going through whatever I was going through, being in a very dark space, then I also turn to behaviors, whether it be what I would call unhealthy behaviors that we do to self medicate our pain. Right, whether it be we consume things, we can consume addictive behaviors, whether it be in what we consume physically or what we consume emotionally or mentally, in my case, it would have been on the sexual side of, you know, pornography and things like that, sort of a self medicate, but it doesn't do it.

[00:35:28]
It creates more shame, more guilt, more problems. And I'm not saying whether that is pornography is right or wrong. It's just sort of, it wasn't a healthy go to for me. Right. Understandable in its context, but really not justifiable and didn't deal with it. I was looking to ease the pain and it didn't, my pain was increased. My confusion was increased. And so that's more internal stuff. And then part of it was also, I didn't know how to deal with, I was always a point of reference for other people in which I was, and I was great at that. I think I did it really well, but I didn't have the muscles and the abilities to deal with my own stuff. I didn't know how to do that. And I think this is a common thing in elite people in leadership roles. Because we're in these roles that we always want to be there for other people. I've seen this everywhere, but the inability of leaders to look at themselves. So that's why I say self-awareness is one of the greatest assets of leadership and the lack of is one of the greatest leadership liabilities, but we don't realize because we're in those positions.

[00:36:28]
We think that we must be good and everything's good. Okay, so I had this great inability and then it affected me, the effectiveness of my leadership. And I think this is part of the crisis of leadership is the inability of leaders to look at themselves. That's why I really believe in coaching, in having someone else, because we need that ability or that space. In confidentiality to be able to look at ourselves and as human beings, because we are a mystery unto ourselves in many ways, we see ourselves or we discover ourselves through the eyes of another in many types of relationships. But coaching is 1 of those. We're the only thing that with a coach you don't have any other relationship other than that coach really in other words The coach is he's in my corner He or she there so that I can grow and in the coaching relationship. We are forced to slow down We're forced to stop and to pay attention to pay attention What's going on outside of me and to pay attention to what's going on inside of me? And when you are forced to have that space automatically, you will begin to grow and you begin to grow in self awareness. You begin to grow in what's in your ability to see and to listen.

[00:37:38]
So I didn't, going back to my own story, that began a great journey of life giving awareness. I was in a bad state, right? So I started intensive therapy. Then I went to inpatient care for four months. And yeah, I began to learn to exercise these muscles that I didn't know how to exercise of vulnerability of being, you know, just owning stuff of honesty of paying attention to my emotions and to what was going on. And it was a path of great growth, a lot of pain involved. In the end, it was so beneficial for me. So I don't know if that answers your question. 

[00:38:12] Dr. Nate Salah
Yeah, no, no, it powerfully answers my question. And so at some point in this journey, you're contemplating leaving the church as far as full time ministry. Is there pressure for you to stay? What does that look like from your perspective? There is a lot of pressure.

[00:38:29] Mattew Bracket
There's social pressure, there's spiritual pressure, there's institutional pressure, especially in that context. I think in a lot of other faith contexts, people leave whatever, you know, in the Christian churches being a pastor, in the Catholic church being a priest. There's always a negative connotation around it, and it creates a lot of ripples and waves. But again, there's a lot we could say about there around the importance that we give to these roles, how healthy or unhealthy that may be. But the fact is, yes, there's a whole bunch, and that's why I put it off for so long, because I We're so, you know, we make this commitment towards to God and church and to the people of God in a commitment that we take seriously, and it was a commitment that I made for life.

[00:39:09]
And so it's kind of backtrack on that. That's a huge thing. I have a sense of failure. Well, I'm not good enough. I'm not as good as I thought. It was this whole sense of weakness and failure and all that. I'm letting a lot of people down. I'm letting you shoot them. And, you know, with my brother priest, then you're sort of viewed as. Not that those words are used, but there's a lot of, it's an emotionally charged decision in many ways in the way it affects other people. And people don't see you the same. You lose a lot of people and people step away and just a lot of relationships change. Which I suppose is natural, but it's all, it never means that it's easy or it's hard or it's easy to kind of understand.

[00:39:47] Dr. Nate Salah
Takes a great deal of courage. 

[00:39:49] Mattew Bracket
That's what a lot of people say and I've sort of grown to understand that, the courage that it took. Um, I definitely didn't feel courageous at the moment. 

[00:39:57] Dr. Nate Salah
You felt survival, right? Yes. But sometimes survival necessitates courage.

[00:40:02] Mattew Bracket
I think it's annoying. I had to learn to be assertiveness was not something I was always good at, right? So I had to learn to exercise those muscles and to learn. And I began to realize that if I don't stand up for myself, no one as well, like many institutions. And there's a whole nother topic that we get into about when organizations call themselves a family. And how unhealthy and dangerous that is, and maybe that's a topic for another episode, but I forget where I was going with that, right? Learning to be assertive because I had to stand up, but I realized that in the end, the organization, I'm not their priority. And in any organization, remember, even no matter what position you have, people are ready to move on from you when it makes sense for the organization. And I've seen this a lot with my brother Priests, right, who have been put in those positions where the organization, the institution just walks away.

[00:40:53]
And that's hard because these organizations, and then it happens, I was talking to someone the other day who was, you know, had a high level position in Microsoft. He was part of the layoff. And it's so because on the onboarding process, you're brought in as part of the family. Right. And this happens in so many organizations and then a little bit later, you're no longer seen as necessarily useful. And so you're just like, right. And that really doesn't happen in family. It's a professional relationship, transactional relationship. Yes. Yeah. 

[00:41:25] Dr. Nate Salah
So interestingly, yeah, we'll have to have a conversation, a follow up about that because there's some organizations who actually attribute the family environment. I don't know if you've heard of Barry Weimuller, but it's actually an institution out of St. Louis and the CEO, Bob Chapman. Interestingly, we won't broach it today, but I'm going to put a pin in it because he's got some very interesting views on that entire dynamic. And you had mentioned about beyond the transaction into like the transformational space, but. 

[00:41:50] Mattew Bracket
I agree. There's so many, but I just wouldn't use the word family. Because it creates certain maybe, it creates expectations that can't be fulfilled.

[00:41:58] Dr. Nate Salah
Sure. No, I understand, especially in the church. There is this, and there's this high level commitment. 

[00:42:02] Mattew Bracket
And so I, when I realized that this institution in the end wasn't going to stand up for me, because in the end, the institution has to stand up for itself. And then I had to stand up for myself and I had to learn to be more assertive and that was a path of great growth. In that environment, sadly, where there's a lot of codependency in the relationship with authority and with the institution and you're taught that, you know, there's a whole thing around humility and then pride. And so if you stand up for yourself, so a lot of people feel bad when they stand up for themselves. I've been able to work with a lot of people and it's not about making people rebellious. It's about teaching them to exercise these muscles of appropriate assertiveness for the good. I agree.

[00:42:41] Dr. Nate Salah
In fact, same, I'm cut from the same cloth, if you will, of agreeableness, as far as a number of instruments that I'm sure you, you've taken many instruments on personality instruments and different drives and big five, right? Yeah. I was high on agreeableness and I've had to learn over time, as you said, appropriate assertiveness. Now, in certain contexts, perhaps it's innate, right? It's natural for you to exhibit that, but in others, perhaps uncomfortable yet necessary. And I think someone listening today, this is resonating, this is hitting home because there is an appropriate assertiveness that's necessary to move forward in a healthy and responsible way that leads to a better future state for yourself and those who you are either leading or following.

[00:43:27] Mattew Bracket
Yes. Thank you, Nate. Let me explain appropriate assertiveness real quick is the way I use those words very intentionally. And because it's about assertiveness is about respect for oneself and respect for the others, but we're not stepping on the rights or the boundaries of others. But so it's the appropriate assertiveness to be able to step. But oftentimes it can go. There's 2 extremes. 1 is we just let people sort of walk all over us. Right, which couldn't be seen in some context as humble and holy, it's not, right, but it can be sort of interpreted that the other extreme is I just walk all over people, which is sort of, it's more aggression, right, and all that stuff. So appropriate assertiveness. I think it's, that's why I use those words very intentionally. 

[00:44:08] Dr. Nate Salah
It's a fantastic terminology, and I think it embodies a permission to move forward in a way that is best for yourself and best for the institution, because at the time you were likely, I'm going out on a limb, were not in a state that was best for the institution.

[00:44:27] Mattew Bracket
No, it was probably liability. 

[00:44:31] Dr. Nate Salah
Yeah. So you make the decision, and I love starting out our multi part, this is going to have to be a multi-part series. We'll come back and do a, several more, and as a recurring guest, especially on the aspect of leadership because also, this is important for the listener, this subject of leadership, it's so invasive, there's so many layers and parts to it, right? This subject has been alive as long as humanity. As long as life. And so, this is an ongoing conversation that's so important, and I love how we start the conversation around your experience in the church. And I'm so thankful for your vulnerability to share some of those intimate challenges that were so difficult for you, so emotionally uncertain at the time. And because someone listening is saying, wow, that's me, I'm there right now. I'm in that place you were in, Matthew, but you found a way. I love how you laid out all the different parts of this journey toward healing, toward wholeness, toward a new chapter. That's the thing about life, right? Our lives are stories, and the way I like to interpret it, and you mentioned the transcendent, I tend to look at it like we play supporting roles.

[00:45:44]
In this great story, right? And each page we turn, in fact, there's an old song, you know, you don't like, how's it go? You don't like what's happening in your life or something like that, just turn the page, right? You don't like your story, you don't like, I love that, just turn the page, right? It's difficult though sometimes. Oh, my goodness. Sometimes that page is so heavy. It feels as though it's made out of iron. You just cannot lift it. And so you've got to be in a place to where you are capable. You've built up enough strength, whether it's emotionally, mentally, spiritually, physically, all of these different aspects of the human being. In order to turn that page and perhaps you can't turn it alone. Sometimes you need help with others. 

[00:46:24] Mattew Bracket
Yes, I had a lot of people that I turned to a lot of people became very key figures in helping turn that page. Yeah, well, it's hard for us as humans to turn the page because of we like safety and we like the known, right? We know the page wrong. We don't know what's on the page. Or the other page is blank and we have to write something like, oh, boy, I don't know what we're going to write. So there's where you like clarity, we like security, we like safety. And sometimes turning the pages goes against those natural instincts of the comfort of that. But there can be so much, you know, there's resurrection on the other side. 

[00:46:57] Dr. Nate Salah
Amen. Yeah. And that's part of this ongoing conversation about crises and leadership is that the state that we're in, the page we're on is not the end of the story. We can be difference-makers. We can help author a new future state out of the way I like to say it. The expression is we can suspend our current reality and invite others to join in creating a new reality. New reality that is healthy, that is whole, that rejects toxicity and cancerous leadership. Embraces leadership that truly serves the needs of one another in profoundly uncommon ways. 

[00:47:30] Mattew Bracket
Right. So much that we can continue to talk to. Thank you, Nate. I think two great topics that we can continue with is, you know, with crisis of leadership, but we could even say leading leadership in crisis, which has two meanings. It means leadership in crisis. But also leadership during crisis. Yes, because those are two very important topics.

[00:47:53] Dr. Nate Salah
I agree. And this is a good cliffhanger because our listener will want to know how and when you left. What were the next steps? We're going to save it for the next episode because I think this journey is a very important backdrop. To our continuing conversation around leading through crisis. Matthew, thanks for being on the program, brother.

[00:48:13] Mattew Bracket
Thank you, Nate. Thank you very much. 

[00:48:13] Dr. Nate Salah
It was wonderful. I can't wait to see you again. Well, my friend, we did it again. I'm so glad you joined me on this episode of A Call to Leadership. If you've been with me on the show, listening in, you'll know this. But if you're new, you may not know that I created a free course for you that you don't need to provide an email address. You don't need to go anywhere. But to stay right here in the podcast, I created the very first six episodes of the podcast because I wanted you to have the kind of value that you need to take advantage of to thrive as a leader. So if you haven't done that yet, listen to episodes one through six, and I'll see you on the next episode. I'm Dr. Nate Salah, and this is A Call to Leadership.