A Call To Leadership

EP127: Approach with Culture, Leading a Radically Relevant Organization with Michael McCloskey, Part 1

• Michael McCloskey

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We’re thrilled to welcome back Michael McCloskey in a three-part conversation about the essence of company culture. Join us as we explore how core values, vision, and goals empower leaders to guide their organizations toward a future state that aspires to greatness. Tune in to delve deeper into the topic and gain a deeper understanding of how to cultivate a thriving company culture!

Key takeaways to listen for

  • The significance of culture in the realm of business
  • Why you should aim for the utmost level of excellence in business
  • Reasons leaders must have a clear vision to be in charge of the company culture
  • Benefits of having core values in leading a company
  • The importance of making people understand the core values of your company 


About Michael McCloskey
Mike McCloskey is the founder and CEO of HumanLytics Team. As the former VP of operations and Director of Learning for globally recognized companies, he’s been fortunate enough to be a part of amazing teams over the years.

Trust, collaboration, and that unstoppable feeling - it’s magic. So, how do you design a winning team to drive results? Is it more about raw talent or chemistry? How do you scale that design across the organization so productivity soars and your culture thrives? He loves teaching and sharing the talent optimizing skills and assessments that helps his clients achieve their strategic plans.

Connect with Michael


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[00:00:00] Michael McCloskey
Before you can even get to culture and core values and all that stuff, there has to be a very clear vision from the leaders. The CEO is in charge of culture. I don't care what they think. I don't care what they say, they're in charge of driving the culture because if it doesn't start with them and they're not living out those core values, then it's all irrelevant.

[00:00:19] Dr. Nate Salah
Hello my friend and welcome to this two-part business Monday series of a Call to Leadership. Well, I have a special treat. I've invited a dear colleague, an expert in the leadership space, Mike McCloskey, to join me back on the show as my special co-host. We're gonna talk about some real issues in leadership. You've heard me talk about some different aspects of culture before, and I continue to bring it up because it is such an important foundation. We have to look at it from many, many angles cuz it's essential for a company success. Strong leaders don't just manage teams. They create an environment where people thrive, where they feel empowered to make meaningful contributions.

[00:01:00]
So we're gonna delve into ways that culture can affect communication, can affect collaboration, how leaders can drive effective and lasting change. We're gonna talk about some different leadership styles because what we want at the end of the day is a positive, healthy, growth oriented culture. Well, so if you're a ceo, whether you're a manager, you're a HR professional, or someone just interested in intersection between business, culture and leadership, I think this episode's for you can't wait for you to join us. I'm Dr. Nate Salah, and this is A Call to Leadership. Mike McCloskey. Yes. Thanks for being here, man. Welcome back to, good to be here, St. Louis.

[00:01:39] Michael McCloskey
Yeah. Every time I'm in town I try to, you know, connect a little bit, say hello. You know what?

[00:01:43] Dr. Nate Salah
It's a blessing and an honor and a joy to be Well, thanks you. Yeah. You're good. People remember, say that before we started recording.

[00:01:48] Dr. Nate Salah
Right. Okay. Can't believe this chumps here again. Now you remember that phrase we used to use when we were young Good people? Yes. Yeah. He's good people at the plural for one per, for the singular drives, educators crazy. Right, right, right. Yes, exactly. Listen, Mike, let's talk about something cool today. We did not plan this podcast recording, correct? You just, you came in, you had a little extra time and you said, Hey, let's hang on. I said, absolutely. I'd love to do it. Sure. And of course, the opportunist that I am, you are here in person. So there's an aspect of business that you and I have encountered extensively, and I think it's something that a listener will find valuable and resonating is when you and I go into environments where we are.

[00:02:30]
Consulting a business on change, right? Because let's just face it, leadership is change. If we don't need change, we don't need leaders, right? Business must constantly change and there are always ways to grow, right? So when we move into a business environment and we're getting ready to consult a business, perhaps is a cultural issue, perhaps there is a breakdown in how we do business from. The perspective of what are our true values? What are our virtues, what are our principles, and are we manifesting them in a way that's meaningful or are they just pretty words on a wall? Because we thought it was important to have something on the wall. Right? We see that.

[00:03:17] Michael McCloskey
Of course all the time. Most people don't even know where they are. And they're literally on the wall around their office, right? Yeah, exactly. Around the ceiling sometimes, and Totally.

[00:03:25] Dr. Nate Salah
Yeah. And I think sometimes it actually has the opposite effect because then it becomes trivial, right? And so I think approaching this conversation, and we talk about this on the program, so a listener will have heard this because it's bearing, repeating in different ways because let's just face it, man, the culture that we build. Will either sustain us or it will train, wreck us. Yeah. As a company, I mean, it's, it's that important for sure. It's that critical. It's not just like a fad to talk about. In fact, I had a relative who we talked about culture years ago, and he's like, people ask me when I'm doing in a job interview, what's your culture like?

[00:04:04]
And he said, I would laugh. I'm like, why are you laughing? Yeah. Because. It's important, right? It's not just something that people are saying. Just because it sounds hip, right? I mean, your culture is, to me, I see culture as baby. It's a child and every child grows up differently than another. Mm-hmm. In fact, it is the one X factor in your business that someone else, that another business cannot duplicate. You know, you can duplicate a lot of things in a business. Your pricing, your promotion. Your products, your packaging, you can duplicate your compensation packages. You can duplicate so many aspects of the business from a competitor perspective, but you can't duplicate someone's culture for culture. It's like that unique child and even in your own home, you know? Right. Even different kids grow up differently that's in that same home. That's right, that's right. 

[00:04:57] Michael McCloskey
Well you touched base on a couple of different things there. One is change and then the other is culture and there's a lot of intertwining in that quite a bit anyway, but very different aspects for sure. But you know, you talk about the culture and how you can have very similar product. I mean the best most talked about probably talking point around that is Chick-fil-A and McDonald's, right? Both of 'em have chicken sandwiches. You know, very, very similar stuff. Fast food, drive-through, same type of thing. Culture's completely different. I, it's funny, I was talking to somebody in Chick-fil-A in Phoenix one time, and I said, so we were talking about culture in a company in Phoenix that day, and I said, so what brought you here? Why do you work for Chick-fil-A? And she says, oh, I didn't really even know much about it, but I'm down in Yuma and there are no Chick-fil-A's there.

[00:05:42]
I heard so much about the company and how well they treat their employees. I came up here for the job. And so it was almost as if I planted her there for the conversation because the meeting actually started the next day and I was just there with a couple people just grabbing a quick lunch. You know, we were kind of going back to brainstorming for the event, uh, that we were doing. I said, let me get this right. You knew nothing about Chick-fil-A. You were what? Born and raised in Yuma, and she says, yes, and we don't have a Chick-fil-A there, but I had a friend that worked here. She said she loved it. I heard so much about it. I literally moved out of my house with my family and came up here and got my first big job with Chick-fil-A and hoping to grow with the company based on just word of mouth about their culture. It's crazy how that can spread in so many different places. Yeah. And you can feel it when you walk in, let alone work there. 

[00:06:29] Dr. Nate Salah
The level of attraction or detraction? Yeah, I would say so. The level of attraction there is, I heard, right. So this was how well they treated their employees. Right. And how powerful is that when you hear that, you know what, people actually care about me. Go figure. That's important, right? 

[00:06:52] Michael McCloskey
To an employee and it's a care that's different because it's a care to standards and some people think care is just no standards, kinda let me do what I wanna do. Kinda like this free for all. You know, there's a big difference between that and you know, still having high standards. So they've got a culture of high standards and of treating their people really well, which is a kind of a rare combination. 

[00:07:09] Dr. Nate Salah
Yeah, it is. Lots of tangents, right? Yeah. But one I see in terms of standards, Whatever standard we set, that's the bar. Right. This is also part of leadership. Right. And this may sound obvious. Obvious is important too, because we just fly over obvious sometimes. Sure. When we set a standard, that is the maximum potential that most people will ever go for. Mm-hmm. So why not just logically, rationally, reasonably set the standard as high as possible. Mm-hmm. For the highest level of expectation, highest level of experience, so that we can strive for that. Right. Like why stop it? Low standard. 

[00:07:46] Michael McCloskey
Well, I don't know if anybody starts at low standards on purpose for sure. I mean, you would hope not, but I do think that sometimes people lose track of really what their vision and mission is and what their core values are, or they were never real in the first place, which is a big problem. Yeah. You know, going back to the kinda your opening comment of it's on the wall, no one follows it. Right. So that starts at leadership. I've worked with so many companies and they say things like, we need a new culture here. We need to get our culture right. Okay, well, what's your culture now? Well, we follow our core values.

[00:08:15]
I said, okay, great. To what extent, and then I separate the entire leadership team in the boardroom that we're sitting in, and I say, write down your core values, and no one knows them. No one has a clue. So how do you live out something you don't even know? So they're completely meaningless, you know? So we kind of start from scratch and talk about what do you really want to be known for, and then how do we turn that into a culture? Yeah. You know, from that. And that's when it's really eye-opening when everybody almost has a mild heart attack when no one knows them. 

[00:08:41] Dr. Nate Salah
Yeah. Number one, you're basically calling everybody out without having to call them out. That's right. Right? That's right. 

[00:08:45] Michael McCloskey
And a few people get some of the verbiage but not all of it.

[00:08:47] Dr. Nate Salah
Yeah. And so it's a great exercise, someone listening. Yeah, right now is probably asking themselves what are my core values? What our, our core values. Right? Yeah.

[00:08:58] Michael McCloskey
And if you don't know, is it because you haven't been speaking to them or were they just thrown together at the beginning of the company? Just so you can say you've got them and it makes you feel good. It's not a feel good thing. It really is what the company is striving for, what they're striving to be, along with the mission statement. And without them, everybody's just kind of in a free for all. And so, you know, I've found that when companies feel like. They're working for something bigger than themselves. When people feel like they're working for something bigger than themselves, a bigger cause, then it's much easier to stay on track. It's easier to give that extra effort to, I'm not talking about staying later and working above and beyond. The hours that you're expected, but putting it all in while you're there. For sure. Yeah. And that means a lot. You can get a lot accomplished in half the time. 

[00:09:42] Dr. Nate Salah
You can. The worthy Cause I think is such an important piece too, building your business around that. Yeah. It's been said, people will fight for money, but they'll die for a cause. Right. And so the causes becomes personal. It's based on the vision. And you'd mentioned your values and I agree with this, are what you wanna be known for. Right, right, right. And so another way to say that is your values. Become your reputation. That's right. And so your reputation becomes your brand. Right. And your brand defines the expectation. Yeah. Ie, the Chick-fil-A story, right? That's right. Our reputation preceded us that people are taken care of in different ways as an employee, then that symbolizes the brand itself. And the expectation follows. And that's where the values and the principles are related, all to how we decide we want to be seen in the marketplace. That's right. And if we don't know what they are, then our reputation and, and our expectation is very ambiguous. Sure. And what happens with ambiguity in a business. People make up their own. 

[00:10:51] Michael McCloskey
They make up way. Yeah, yeah. Before you can even get to culture and core values and all that stuff, there has to be a very clear vision from the leaders, right? The leadership team and the CEO is in charge of culture. I don't care what they think. I don't care what they say, they are in charge of driving the culture because if it doesn't start with them and they're not living out those core values, then it's all irrelevant because then everybody on the front lines and in middle management just say, Well, you guys don't follow it anyway. You ladies don't follow it, so why are we gonna follow it? So they just don't, it's all words on a screen or on a wall. Right? And so the downside to that is, well, the caution there is that even visionaries that have a really good, clear vision for what they want their company to be, oftentimes, unfortunately, have a really hard time explaining what that vision is because they've been thinking about it for a long time.

[00:11:40]
They know what they want. They know what the end game is, but because they've been thinking about it for six months or 10 years, they think everybody's been on that ride with them. So they leave a meeting oftentimes and the people in the room are very confused over, okay, is this something we're implementing or was that a kinda like a wishlist of things that we're gonna be working on? Was that kind of like a dream center moment, you know, where we're trying to do some things and so having an extremely clear vision for what we want the company to represent and we want to be known as in the public, it allows the easier creation of core values and mission statements and things like that.

[00:12:14] Dr. Nate Salah
Agreed. And I've spent an ordinate amount of time, my lifetime. Right? Yeah. Focusing on this idea of vision, and what I love about vision is it sets the tone and the stage of not only direction, but who is truly meant to be on this leadership. Right? Right, right. Because with a solid vision, it says, this is the trajectory and this is where we're going. Is this a better future state for you? 

[00:12:46] Michael McCloskey
Right. I like how you paused and said leadership, like it's a ship of leaders and Yeah. Sailing the right direction. Yeah. 

[00:12:53] Dr. Nate Salah
Yeah. I think it's an apt word, picture. Mm-hmm. Because if you're about to embark on a journey on a ship, and the captain of the ship has not clearly articulated the desired destination, unless you want a sale to nowhere, which most people don't, you're probably not getting on it.

[00:13:12] Michael McCloskey
Right. Well, it's interesting because you mentioned this because I just went in January, I went on a sailboat cruise and so it's really big. This massive catamaran holds like 10 people. We get a bunch of us together and we go every year for a week, and we just started. It's my second year going, but the group that originally put it together has been doing it for about 10 years and we had this great conversation. A lot of more business owners and their spouses and and their spouses are business owners in a lot of cases as well. And you know, we've got all this navigation and stuff on the boat. And you know, it's interesting, we can type in the destination we want. We're all up and down the Bridges, Virgin Islands, and just traveling all over different islands.

[00:13:48]
And if you're off by one degree or two degrees, you constantly have to kind of re-look at, okay, what's the vision? Where are we going here? So that we can adjust the computer systems or the wheel or you know, however we're course correct happen to be correction. Yeah, course correction in general. Right. And it's funny to think that if you're off by one or two degrees, it shows on that map, this v going super tight to very, very wide. Where you might possibly end up if you're not constantly looking at course correction to make sure you're staying on track to that vision. Of where you want your final destination to be, and you can literally end up on a different continent, right?

[00:14:25]
By just not keeping an eye on, you know, the, where you're going. Trajectory, uh, yeah. The trajectory with your company is a perfect analogy for that because, Again, people put those together, they slap 'em on a wall and think, okay, that's one of 10 things we have to do when we start a company and they're just kind of done with them and they never look at 'em again. Trajectory, they lose their vision for what they're trying to accomplish cuz they get caught up in all the busyness and next thing you know they're trying to course correct after they're way offline. Way off course. 

[00:14:53] Dr. Nate Salah
Yeah, way off. What a great analogy for that. And the values, then they help to create boundaries and course corrections, right, in some ways, right? That's right. Yeah. So they are our navigation tools in many ways, for sure. It's a great entire that's, we're taking this out, so when we set principles, as it's called as well, Some call them virtuous and certainly there can be virtues within Yes. Our values and principles. Mm-hmm. But they're boundaries. That's right. And so what they do is they say, this is what we agree to, what is acceptable and not acceptable so that we can remain on course mm-hmm. To reach our vision and literally meet our mission day in and day out. That's right. And so when you put it all together like that, then it begins to make sense. Sure. And that's why you have to start with the vision, right? Because if you don't start with the vision, how could you ever know what the boundaries and borders need to be in order to make sure your trajectory is solid? That's right.

[00:15:51] Michael McCloskey
If you don't have a vision, the core values are completely irrelevant because they were just made up probably one day with zero concern of how long they were gonna last. Right? 

[00:15:59] Dr. Nate Salah
Okay. So we've identified that they're essential. Now you go into businesses and you've helped businesses out, and so have I. Right. This is totally spitballing. Roughly speaking. Yeah. If you were to say a percentage wise mm-hmm. Of companies who have totally nailed it and had it right from day one when you come in. 

[00:16:19] Michael McCloskey
Wow. Less than 10%. Less than 10%, yeah. And that would probably be high. High. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know less than 10 is pretty wide range. But yeah, there are aspects that are really, really good. Some have the vision down really, really well, but they haven't shared the vision well. Some have core values down really well that tie into the vision, but they're not living them out in conversation throughout the day. So, for example, when we talk culture, there's all kinds of different culture. There's, you know, you can have culture of accountability, you can have culture of fun, you can have culture of. Customer service goes above and beyond. There's lots of different aspects within the culture that you can have, and one of the things we talk to a lot is culture of self-accountability.

[00:16:59]
The managers want to be able to coach, train, and develop people, but they don't want to hold people accountable all the time. They want people with some self-motivation that want to be there, and so they have to know why they're there. First of all, everything going back to the vision and core values, of course, and what we teach a lot is making sure that all of the feedback. That coaches and managers and leadership gives all revolve around those core values. So Nate, you know, here's where I feel you demonstrate core value, number three, whatever that might be. Incredibly well. I mean, you are living this out day after day, and here's an example of that. Let me tell you what I saw today.

[00:17:37]
And so that being shared in front of a room full of people at a meeting makes people think, oh, well what core value did I live out today? Cuz I would like an accolade at the next meeting. Right? And if there's an area of opportunity where they can be better, then those are also tied in privately. So Nate, you know, here's where I feel like you can live out, uh, core value number four a little bit better. Um, here's a couple of things that I saw today, and here are some pointers for you to help live that out a little bit better. And so all of them constantly refer back to. Whatever number of core values you've got, and so it keeps people focused on the right thing. As long as they're written well with purpose to begin with, it's a good thing to stay focused on, and that allows that to happen.

[00:18:16] Dr. Nate Salah
I agree. I have had the blessing of the same, and of course it's a little bit of a loaded question anyway because they probably wouldn't be calling you if everything was perfect, so I get it. Same, I think sometimes that the leadership sometimes doesn't recognize the immense influence. That those core values have that mission, that those vision, those values coming from them, right. Sometimes they don't realize the gravity they do, not of their own, I don't wanna say effectiveness, but ability to influence the meter and the tone, right. The vibe of the organization. That's right. And that's important. It's important to recognize that and own that. I don't wanna say leadership's top down. Cause sometimes it's bottom up if you look at it from a serpent leadership perspective. But nonetheless, you provide the energy that flows through an organization and it literally, it's an extension of your own values, of your own persona, right? If you have an organization that has issues with toxicity or cancerous issues, it's usually an issue with you, right?

[00:19:21]
It is what it is now that's okay to just recognize it. Sure. And then what are the steps that need to be taken? That doesn't mean that you're cancer is so toxic, right? It means maybe you're disengaged or you haven't made the decisions to allow the right people on the ship who are self-regulating, who are self-managing, who have high emotional intelligence, so on and so forth. I mean, there's a lot of factors in that, right? That's right. But that's where the values come in. In fact, years ago, I made a determination not to bring anyone on the team who did not have a high level of emotional maturity. It was a central core value. Mm-hmm. And what that meant was, is that, Emotional maturity is related of course to emotional intelligence.

[00:19:59]
Mm-hmm. Is one aspect of it also not being insecure, right? Because there's a security, so I'm looking at efficacy. Yeah. I'm looking at locus of control, and at that level with that type of individual, what I've found is that they're better able to have self-accountability as well, is what you're talking about. Right? Right. Because the self-accountability in the organizational environment means that, I am able to take ownership, not only that, but believe mm-hmm. In our mission, our vision, our values in such a way that I'm living them out, that I require no surveillance. Right. That's an important aspect of this, right?

[00:20:39]
Because surveillance requires effort, it also creates an environment that can seem or feel and can also be unsafe. Mm-hmm. Because if you have to surveil me, That means that I have to expend energy so that I am working in the paradigm that you institute, not because I understand it and I do it out of my own self-accountability. Right? But now it's by compulsion. That's right. Which requires effort. And what that effort does is then it moves me away from the effort that's necessary to do my best fossil work. 

[00:21:14] Michael McCloskey
Right. Last time I was in town, we talked about drives and kinda what, you know, what drives people and. You know, there are several that we talked about, but one of the things I found, we work with several nonprofits as well, and a lot of people work at a nonprofit because they do line up easily with core values of that particular nonprofit. They're naturally kind of drawn to it, and so it's a little bit harder in a corporation. Where the perception might be. Well, we're not helping people outwardly as a charity so to speak, and so how are we helping people? How are we helping the community? How are we, again, going back to the vision? What are we doing here?

[00:21:50]
You know, how are we giving back with our product, even if we're making a killing on it and doing very well with a profitable standpoint from the profitable side as well. And you can't have all of that. But I think that ties into how much effort people wanna put into it, how well they're tied into it. People do not come on board with companies that we work with anymore, that haven't read through the core values and talk about what's their favorite one, why it is, and if they had to change one, why is that? It's kind of interesting. And they don't get dinged for saying why they might change one, cuz the question is, which one would you change? We want them to kind of challenge the companies a little bit with what they're thinking, but. You know, if they say, oh, I would definitely remove this cuz I don't believe in giving back and we're going the extra mile, that means that's, you know, if they're that bad at an interview, they shouldn't be there.

[00:22:36]
But it's interesting what they say. Some people say, oh, I haven't read it. And that's part of the instructions in the email when they come in for the interview. Well, if you haven't read the core values and you're applying for a high level position in the company, Then why would we even want to talk to you? Why should we continue this conversation? And in some cases, they end right. Then the interviews are over. If they can't follow a simple instruction of read through the core values and we give them to them, what did you think about these when you read through them? There's only three instructions. 

[00:23:02] Dr. Nate Salah
So that's strong. It is, and I think it's important to be decisive like that. Someone listening might say, wow, it seems kind of harsh. No, I think it's just a question, why should we continue this conversation? Right. It doesn't have to be a hard line. That's right. Tone. It can just be why do we need to continue this conversation?

[00:23:17] Michael McCloskey
Just ask it inquisitively. Yeah. 

[00:23:19] Dr. Nate Salah
Yeah. Just help me to understand. That's right. Because right now I don't understand. Right. If you're not interested. Yeah. In our values, I'd like to know how you're interested in helping this company grow. 

[00:23:32] Michael McCloskey
We work with a rather large retail company and they've got stores all over the place and they're looking for a lot of regional managers. And one of the things that we asked them was, okay, so what did you think about the store when you went in and visited? I mean, you're looking to be a regional manager over 13 locations. What did you notice? Talk to us about your visit and it's shocking to me how many people have never gone into. A store that they're about to be a regional manager over. Wow. And they know nothing about it, but they're gonna go in and they're gonna tell the company exactly what they want. That's a really big sign of how they have no core values to tie into, even though they could have looked those up, they don't know anything about what culture they experienced in there. They're kind of just bringing their own feelings and emotions from past experiences to this company. It's like somebody, again, going from any other place to Chick-fil-A and saying, I'm gonna run it like I ran the last place. Without ever having that experience of being in one. Mm-hmm. And it's, it could be a complete disaster, um, if you've got somebody, they can't put forth the effort to kind of understand what the culture is, what they felt, what they heard, those kind of things. Yeah. And so those interviews do end quickly. Yeah. Those are rough.

[00:24:40] Dr. Nate Salah
I bet that's okay. Yeah, because that's right. It's so much more, it requires tremendous and copious amounts of energy to remove. That's right. A relationship that's already started that doesn't belong there.

[00:24:51] Michael McCloskey
There are 40 people in each one of those locations, times 13 locations, and they're basically responsible for a mini culture in that part of the country. And so they've got a huge responsibility. You know, every customer experience, every employee engagement experience is gonna be based on their leadership or their delivering of the core values, which. They know nothing about and didn't care to learn about.

[00:25:12] Dr. Nate Salah
Well, my friend, we did it. I'm so honored you were able to join me on this episode of A Call to Leadership. Now, this might not be for everyone because you really have to be in a certain place in order to take the kind of steps to level up your leadership. And I want you to be taking steps, and for those of you who feel like you're ready for something like this, there's a place you can go. You can go to our website, greatsummit.com I'll make sure that's in the show notes. But here's the cool thing that we have. We've got a masterclass. We have all different kinds of events. We even have our leadership club where you can meet other people just like you to go deeper in your leadership journey. You and I'll get to spend some time together and really focus on aiming for greatness. I can't wait to see you there. I'm Dr. Nate Salah and this is A Call to Leadership.

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