A Call To Leadership

EP255: High Performing Employees with Kon Apostolopoulos

• Dr. Nate Salah

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What sets truly effective leaders apart in creating workplaces that inspire commitment and enthusiasm? Join us as we uncover the keys to transforming ordinary work environments into thriving, connected communities. Discover how to foster trust, drive productivity, and align people's plans with business goals for lasting impact. This episode is packed with actionable insights and powerful strategies that every leader can use to elevate their team and culture.



Key Takeaways To Listen For

  • Why liking your job isn’t enough
  • How creating psychological safety fosters employee autonomy and innovation
  • Practical steps to create an engaged workplace culture
  • How leaders shape 70% of team performance through trust, authenticity, and emotional intelligence
  • The power of balancing care with tough love to build trust and performance



Resources Mentioned In This Episode



About Kon Apostolopoulos
Kon Apostolopoulos is a recognized speaker, author, and expert in leadership development and organizational transformation. With extensive experience working with leaders across North America and Europe, he delivers innovative ideas and best practices to maximize the potential of people and foster meaningful change. As the founder of the Engagement Blueprint, Kon specializes in helping companies build resilience, elevate engagement, and empower leaders at every level to drive personal and professional success.



Connect With Kon



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[00:00:00] Dr. Nate Salah
Why do employees disengage? Why do they have low productivity? Why is it that they are disconnected? Why do they feel burnout and eventually perhaps leave? Well, lots and lots of reasons. I can tell you this sometimes almost all the time, if not all the time, it has to do with us. It has to do with leaders. It has to do with how we bring people on, the kind of culture. Cultures. We create the environments. Unless we get ahead of it, unless we understand what our blind spots are, we will find ourselves in the same predicament as others. That will be costly. It may even have a brand reputation that is tarnished. It could impact lives. And so that's one of the reasons why this conversation is so important, so timely. This conversation with Coach Kon, who is the founder and CEO of Fresh Biz Solutions, he's written extensively on the. Subject. He's an expert. His most recent book, the engagement blueprint, building a culture of commitment and performance.

[00:01:11]
 A lot of other books he's written. We're going to talk about this. We're going to dig deep in so much wisdom and coach Kon's approach. And I absolutely love our conversation. I know it's going to be life-giving massively impactful for you. You may want to take some notes because, uh, he's bringing the heat. So without any further ado. Let's get right into it. Kon, welcome to the program. Dr. Nate, it's great to be here. It's an honor to be here with you. Oh, thank you. Yeah. And just on the cusp of a Thanksgiving week weekend, of course, we give thanks, not just once a year, but every day. And I know you share that philosophy. And sometimes we forget to give thanks in one most critical area. And you know this because you've written extensively on it. And we'll share how to find your latest work, the engagement blueprint. Uh, people. Sometimes we know we need to. We know we need to find a way to give them what they need beyond the reward.

[00:02:14]
 And it's interesting. And I want to hear your opinion on this and your thoughts, especially in your work. There's a guy named Victor Vroom. Years and years ago, he wrote on what he called the expectancy theory is we came in and a lot of our Um, contingency theories of leadership revolve around his work, but he talked about, it's a very simple theory. It was based on expectancy. What we expect out of our effort will drive the level of effort, right? And the bottom line is, will we be satisfied or will we be dissatisfied? And that, that level of perception, expectation drives us. Drives behavior, drives effort, of course, effort drives then performance, performance, then outcomes, outcomes, then rewards and reward satisfaction. And so we do is we send like we blanket out these rewards and we say, Oh, you know, everybody should have massive levels of satisfaction because it satisfies me. But we know that's, we know that's a slippery slope. And you're in the space of knowing, Hey, we got business plans, but do we have people plans? And I love how you frame that language. Let's unpack that in ways that you've addressed this important subject. 

[00:03:23] Kon Apostolopoulos
Well, there's so much even just in your opening statements that we could threads that we could pull on there, not the least of which is separating and understanding satisfaction from engagement because they are not the same, especially in a business environment. These things are not the same. Um, I think. Most business owners, most leaders can probably relate to it either because they have seen it in their people will pick up the phone from the recruiter. They will entertain the offer. And if it's the right offer, they will pick up and leave. So satisfaction and engagement are not the same. There is a big difference there. It's the difference between you know what? I really like my job. I like the people I work with. It's okay. Yeah, it pays the bills. It does a good job rather than I can't wait to get up in the morning. I love what I do. I love what I do and I would do it even if I wasn't getting paid.

[00:04:11]
 That's a big difference between those things. It's the same with people think that happiness at work is all of a sudden the same as engagement. And it's not for anybody, especially during these black Fridays or other events. Now that everybody is so eager to go out and shop, uh, I'm sure that they've gone out to a retail establishment, a restaurant, anywhere else. And they've seen happy employees, happily talking to each other or happily checking their cell phones for the messages that they've got and totally happily ignoring you. And so Those are not the same things as engagement. Engagement is a much deeper, deeper thing. It involves a commitment, um, and enthusiasm and excitement that people have about what they're working on for themselves, but also for their team and their organization. That's the kind of engagement that I've researched and I've tried to create a movement behind so we can harness that. Because when we can transform our workplaces, we can transform our environments into a place where people have that level of engagement. It benefits both the employer and the employees. Everybody wins from that. That is the true win-win. 

[00:05:20] Dr. Nate Salah
Absolutely. And of course, that spills over to the, uh, to the offering and the experience we create for our customer and user. Our suppliers are everyone involved. By the way, it also spills over in our families as well. It's contagious. And it's interesting. I love the way you frame this because it's contagious either way. Either your energy that leads to high level of engagement, massive satisfaction, true, real happiness in the workplace, and it's possible. It's not, this is not a dream. It's not, uh, unfounded optimism. It actually is, it's happening. And if it's not happening, let's just call it what it is. If it's not happening where you are, it's possible. The people who are there where you are will find out where it's happening and be drawn to it. 

[00:06:08] Kon Apostolopoulos
And I have personal experiences of that during difficult times. And I think that's part of what inspired me to write the book and to really capture the essence of that, because I was seeing it in the clients that I was working with and noticing the difference between where they were and where a lot of our competitors or even other. Parts of the broader company were when you compare how much people were engaged and what they were doing during that time and how they were almost impervious to a lot of these, the war for talent at the time, post COVID and looking at a lot of these different things where people were rushing away from their current jobs, dissatisfied. Whereas these people were totally immersed in what they were doing. They love what they were doing. They were excited about that. It wasn't easy at times, especially because I was serving them and the company was. In the construction industry, which is not an easy business to be in. Uh, and so these are, these are people that are hardened with a lot of the challenges of work. They are doing legacy work, building buildings and structures, hospitals, schools, centers within communities that will last for years. And so these people were approaching their job very, very differently. And during that time, We didn't lose any of our top people. We didn't lose our best and brightest to a competitor. On the contrary, we actually drew like a moth to a flame. A lot of the people that were dissatisfied with their environment looking for something better, looking for a place where they could really feel that energy.

[00:07:39] Dr. Nate Salah
And great people with great talent. By the way, that's the other factor is how long and how difficult is it to to recruit? And on board and retain someone, not just from a, an internal of staffing perspective, but also from a morale perspective. And once you have people who are saying, Hey, this is a beacon, this is a beacon, this, this environment, this culture, this, this community, if you will, this ecosystem is a beacon for others to join in. And I love the way you put in intensive a movement, what you're talking about, and even within an organization, organization in and of itself can be a movement. And there's no, by the way, no excuses, a widget's a widget. It could be in any industry. You can be in construction, you can be in manufacturing, you can be in retail, you can be in accounting, wherever you are. You can create an environment that thrives on satisfaction and engagement. 

[00:08:37] Kon Apostolopoulos
And this is where, you know, the whole. Aspect, the whole theme of what we're talking about, the role, the importance of a leader. This is where it comes into play because just like anything else, leaders have the privilege and the responsibility of being able to shape the kind of environments they want for their team. They play such a profound role. I mean, it's documented that the difference between a performance in a team, about 70 percent of that difference stems from the leader. The leader has such a significant way impact on how things get done and the effectiveness and how people feel about the whole environment, they can help shape it. And that is a responsibility and an honor that each of us that want to be called leaders have. And that's something that we should be taking seriously from that piece. 

[00:09:25] Dr. Nate Salah
Absolutely well said and recognizing that that great responsibility comes with a level of self-awareness that's necessary self-regulation. We're talking a little bit about emotional intelligence that we've got to look in the mirror daily. And recognize who am I? How am I being perceived in the workplace? What are the measures that I'm the levers, if you will, that I'm that I'm pulling and pushing with not only how I structure a culture through, uh, through tangible and intangible rewards, how I create engagement through autonomy, mastery, a sense of purpose, all of these different factors. But how do I show up right? I can put all that on paper. How do I show up as a leader every single day because others are watching and you are modeling, I'm modeling, Kon's modeling, whatever it is that we seek to blueprint as necessary for us to have a justification for our existence as an organization?

[00:10:33] Kon Apostolopoulos
Now, the interesting thing is that, you know, for those listening to us, and I'm sure there are different points in their journey of leadership, if you will, many of the people that I initially talked to within my client base are 10, generally the owners, the C suite, the executives that are part of that, when we talk about this concept of really being able to create the right people plan to match their business plan. It helps alleviate their fears, their apprehension, their concerns, the confusion that may exist, and the uncertainty. It takes away a lot of that uncertainty of going into battle, if you will, to use that metaphor, feeling confident about the people and the plan that you have behind you, that your troops will be able to execute. Why? Because they're prepared, they're ready, willing, and able to commit to that. But it doesn't happen Just by them. I mean, senior leaders tend to be a lot more removed from the front line, especially in larger organizations where I operate. And so they have a need to be able to model that behavior to the next layers and be able to create layers of leadership throughout the organization. And this is part of a hallmark of a great leader. You don't create more followers. You create more leaders and you have to have that and cascade that throughout the organization. So even though my initial planning piece and the commitment comes from the senior leaders, and it has to come from there, much of the hands on work that happens actually happens at the team leader level, at the people leader level, the people that are in the front lines that are dealing with a lot of these challenges and have to confront the challenges.

[00:12:03]
 A lot of those things and shape at the cellular level, almost the organization and being able to kind of break it down. And so it permeates throughout the organization and becomes part of the culture. Why? Because culture is simply the way we do things. So when leaders can shape the way we do things at all levels, that starts becoming part of the culture and a culture of engagement means a culture of mutual commitment between the organization and its members. And then at the same time. It means higher levels of performance. Why? Because people are offering willingly that level of discreet effort that is so important. If you just approach your business as a transactional, I pay you, I give you a paycheck, do your job. People will give you only the bare minimum, but people that are appreciated, people that feel engaged will always do more than what's expected of them. Back to your theory of expectancy, because that starts coming together from that piece, and people are able to really willingly give that. And that's almost like a self-sustaining energy level. 

[00:13:08] Dr. Nate Salah
A 100%. I couldn't agree more. This becomes far deeper and far greater than any one person. And that's also a part of what you're talking about, is that we're talking about a worthy cause. Every organization can have a worthy cause. You don't have to be, you know, you don't have to be Jesus healing on, on the mountaintop. Although, great insight, even through, through the ministry, if you think about it, these people who needed, they needed healing, and he empowered his team To go out and do the good work of sharing the good news and helping people along their path. It was a worthy cause, and there was great, and there was great engagement, if you will, uh, with the disciples. We're going into Christmas season, so it's on my mind. This great, this great story that is a wonderful model for thinking about our people, our team members. Have we given them a worthy cause? To heal, really, and that's, you know, all business, I believe, all business, if you boil it down to its fundamentals, is about healing. It's about being made whole, because if there were not problems to solve, if there were not deficiencies, we would need to step in the gap, no matter where it is. And you can name any business. There is a deficit and we need to be the guides to help others to be made whole, whether it's stopping at a restaurant because I hunger, whether it's needing a coach for helping me to develop a better plan for my people, whether it's I own an accounting and advisory firm, right? Hey, whether I need my taxes done right, there is a real area that needs your empathy. It needs your, your listening active, by the way, and it needs your attention and addressing the way that we are going to move from this current state to a better future state, because no one wants to go to a worse future state, only bad. 

[00:15:13] Kon Apostolopoulos
That's why I mean, that's why we initiate change. We never initiate change for the worst. Do we purposefully? We try to do it for the better. That's our hope, but I love where you're going with this because it's a perfect transition into talking about what I call the four drivers of engagement when leaders everywhere because because this is a practical show at its heart. We're trying to give people practical advice. Yes, there is theory behind our work. Yes, there is substance and thought behind it. But at the end of the day, it's, what can I go out and use from this message? So I'd like to kind of dive into that if I may, Dr. Nate, and kind of start on peeling back some of these layers, and let's give some practical advice to the leader out there that says, okay, that's fine and dandy. I'd love to be part of that kind of environment, but how do I do this? So it's important to understand that, you know, through my research over the years and through my experience, one thing that I found is that there are four key drivers. of engagement. And they are not just employee engagement, but they are people engagement in general.

[00:16:11]
 So they have as much applicability into the mission that you were talking about earlier as to a oil and gas business and everything else in between or an accounting firm or a construction firm. It applies everywhere because people are people. And so here's the first one. We talked about it. We touched on it already.  The need to feel valued. People have a need to feel valued when we are feeling valued, when we are feeling appreciated. Well, guess what? We're going to give more. We're going to give more than what's expected. And so think about it, even in your own life, with your family, with the people around you, when you appreciate them now. Just after Thanksgiving, when we show that level of gratitude, people respond positively to that. And so that's an aspect that we need to understand. Well, how do I do that? The leader may say, well, one of the things is gratitude. A simple thank you can go a long way. It's not just about the bonus. It's not just about the money. It's not just about the perks. Sometimes, a heartfelt, well-timed thank you is appropriate and will hit stronger than any other thing that you do. Another thing to consider, here are four or five things to simply go out and consider. One thing is create a safe environment for your people. If you value people, make them feel safe. And that is the physical safety, perhaps, in the environment that you're in, like my construction clients. Safety is a big, important thing. People need to go home in one piece, and that's priority number one. But it's also about the psychological safety. It's about the emotional safety. It's a needs to be said, am I going to get punished for that?

[00:17:39]
 Or am I going to get acknowledged and appreciated for that? If you create an environment where people feel safe emotionally and psychologically to speak up and help and contribute, they will be more involved with contribution than just consumption. And so they will be part of your team, and they will engage very, very differently. Think about it in terms of belonging. People want to feel like they are included in things. When you create the kind of atmosphere where people are appreciated for their whole self, not just part of their self, but their whole self, inevitably, they will bring their best self to work because they are accepted that way. And that's important to understand. And then, ultimately, Think about it in terms of attention in an environment, in a day with social media and everything else, the new currency is attention. It's eyeballs. That's what everybody out there is trying to do win our engagement from that piece. So as a leader, even if you have five minutes a week to spend with somebody on your team, make sure that those five minutes you are present, like you said, actively listening.

[00:18:41]
 Engage with them when you ask them and you say, Hey, how was your day? Pause long enough to really listen to what they have to say and don't accept. Fine. Dig deeper, make the connection with the person. One of the things that shaped me, and I'm going to digress for a second. If I may, Dr. Nate. Absolutely. In my earlier corporate career, I used to travel a lot. But when my daughter was born, I realized that I had other priorities. Other things were more important to me than climbing the ladder. And I realized that one day I kept telling myself I was doing it for my family. I was doing it for my family. On one long trip, when I was at an airport, I stopped by one of the newsstands, one of the little shops to pick up, uh, papers. a magazine or something to read. And I noticed they had one of those motivational posters up on the wall. And it said, love to a child is spelled T I M E. And to me, that just hit me like a ton of bricks. And I realized that the time that I give those that matter in my life is invaluable. That says, I love you. That says, I care. That says, I value you. And so I can't go around telling my wife and daughter, I'm doing this for you if I'm not giving them what they need most. And that is my time. And so if you value people, create a safe environment, show them they belong, be grateful for what they contribute, allow them to bring the best selves to work and by all means be present with them. That shows that you value them. 

[00:20:09] Dr. Nate Salah
It's like meditating on those words, their liquid gold. They're so life-giving. On the one hand, we, we know it. We need to hear it. We need to hear it, be reminded together in a sense of community. Even here in this moment, as you and I are sharing with with a listener, we're the three of us are really in the same space because we know It's really cool. The critical nature of that, not just from studies and theories and of course, all of the supported data. It's from experience as well in our own lives. Think about that relationship that whether it was with a parent or an uncle or a mentor or an educator or an employer who Valued you and express that value through that sense of time. And because that is, there's no more valuable currency on the planet than time. And, and you and I know this well, because we've got lots of gray hairs and I think not just because you're older that you understand it, but in light of it, you realize every day you're getting closer and closer to the end of your life. The journey, this side of eternity, and there's a great relevance, I suspect, for many of us who are in this seasonal life of recognizing that, hey, you know what? So valuable yet. We sometimes will make the comment. Hey, Hey, But you don't understand. I have, I've got so much going on and I have to do this work. Otherwise, X, Y, and Z won't ever happen. I needed to do this. And I just don't have the time. And I know, I think I know what, how you'll respond to that with a little bit of care at the same time with some reality checks on reframing of what's truly valuable. 

[00:21:59] Kon Apostolopoulos
Yeah. And to me, I, I always. Distribute and offer empathy with a side of tough love. To me, there are two sides of the same coin. I try to understand where they're coming from. I've been there. I've been through the tough times and everything else, but just like the good times, they don't always last. I mean, that's the thing we need to realize. There are seasons to life. There are things. And even if somebody tells me today, you know what, Hey, I have to push through for this piece. Yeah. That doesn't have to be your permanent life either, though. Make sure that you keep. The priority is in mind. What matters most matters most. It's as simple as that. And you show it through your actions and through your choices. Don't tell me this matters when it's the last thing on your list when you don't put your time and your money where your mouth is. Um, to me, even even when I'm working with people and I Teach, for example, how to deal with virtual team members. It's important to understand the empathy that's required to manage people like that, because not everybody has a home office. Not everybody is equipped with that. Chances are they're sitting at the kitchen table next to their fifth grader, who's trying to do homework, and you're trying to get work done. In a lot of that stuff, maybe they're caring for an aging parent. Maybe they're dealing with a lot of different things. So empathy is top of mind, but also tough love where you say, okay, let's pre prioritize what I need from you.

[00:23:16]
 Let's manage that expectation from that piece. Cause I do not want you to get burnt out and I want to make sure that you are able to give your best within reason of what we're doing. So let's make sure that this arrangement works for both of us. And that's the important piece of balancing those conversations out. Empathy, tough love. That's a leadership paradox that is required of us in this modern day. We synthesize two opposing ideas in order to create a third and better option that's required for us today. So that's a big part of things of what we want to do. But that also brings me to the next piece, the next driver, which is connection. We are tribal creatures, doctor. You know that more than anybody. We want to belong. We want to be part of something bigger than ourselves. And that is what you were alluding to earlier. People want to be part of a mission. We see that If you go into a stadium with 50, 000 other raving fans that are wearing the same jersey as you, you feel an immediate connection. And there is a power that comes from that. You go and you meet somebody all of a sudden that went to the same school that you did, grew up in the same neighborhood, speaks the same language as you, and now all of a sudden you feel kindred spirits. Don't you? And that connection is what we seek, even in our environment at work and everywhere else.

[00:24:30]
 So provide that connection, help build a team built as a leader out there, start building that connection one one-on-one with your people, create mutual respect, the sense of, of connection between the two of you, and then establish the rules of engagement with your team. Set the clear mission of what you're trying to do, set the values of how you're going to engage with each other, look at it and say, how are we going to measure success from this piece and then facilitate the process of building again, the consensus that's required for contribution, not just consumption, but also allow the connection between your team members, facilitate that don't have everything just go through you. That's very addicting. It's easy to be the white knight that runs in and solves everybody's problems. Allow your people to step in and be the hero every now and again. Allow them to create connections directly with each other. The way that visually I would illustrate that for our leaders, the people listening to us today, I want them to imagine a wagon wheel.

[00:25:29]
 The center hub and each one of the spokes connects you to somebody on the edge, that's part of your team. That one one-on-one connection needs to be strong. That spoke needs to hold up, but the wheel only turns when all of the connections on the outside, on the rim are connected when there's strong bonds between those points, that's when the wheel will roll. And that's when truly you have the biggest benefit from that. So imagine. Again, that hub and spoke that wheel that you want to create with your team and everybody moving in the same direction. So that's the second driver for this piece. 

[00:26:04] Dr. Nate Salah
Wonderful illustration for that, for that driver. And as you're speaking that out, the two pieces that just need to be, I think, highlighted here. One is your own awareness of the need for connection and the fostering of that in your organization. And you talked about safe space. I love the idea of creating space that is safe enough to be brave. Make it safe enough to be brave and the bravery is going to be exhibited through how we create these values. Those values are boundaries and borders. What they do is these are non negotiable. What's permitted and what's prohibited. And to be a spoke on this wheel, you must you must believe you must believe What we believe to believe something I've heard it said like this to be living it, right? By the way, this is not any way to look at individuals and say that we discriminate. This is simply we want to uphold these principles. These principles are essential for the experience that we promise. So without them, this is what we are. This is who we are. You talked about care, like one of our core values is to care. Roar ordinarily, extraordinarily. So you can't just care. You must care with the highest level of standard and some people don't, and that's totally fine. You won't like it here. 

[00:27:29] Kon Apostolopoulos
You won't, you won't, you won't, you won't belong in the tribe. 

[00:27:31] Dr. Nate Salah
That's right. You know, and that's totally okay. There's a different try for you, but we've got it as leaders. We must be extremely clear on those core tenets, those core principles and then begin to live them. And I love the way you put the mindset of the connecting point to create it to where it's, it's not only authorized, but it's also. You have a sense that others can do this freely with autonomy, and you come in where you need to, not everywhere, but where you need to. I love popping into an office con, and if I see someone's working and they've been working hard, they've just been in the office all day in their room, just quiet, and I'll pop in and say, Hey, how's it going? You good? Like, oh, yeah, everything's great. I'm working on this project. It's kind of got me stumped. And it's like, hey, do you mind if I come in for a minute and just chat? And inevitably, this is a point of connection, right? Inevitably, and you have to be, you have to be mindful, you have to be aware and appropriate.And sometimes they don't want you in there. Sometimes it's like, hey, you know what? I'm good. I really am good. I don't want you here because you're going to zap my time, which is totally fine. So you've got to be discerning enough and say, or just say, hey, whenever you get a minute, if you want to chat, I'd love to hear about the project you're working on, how you're going to overcome it, whatever it is.

[00:28:44]
 Or if you need more resources, I'm here. Sometimes someone wants you to come in and they just want to talk about something else that totally off, but it's really on being mindful of that as an employer, as a leader. It's so critical because back to that piece of now we're connected and not just because you're checking a box, we want to get away from duty. And get to the human condition and you can't fake that we've got to make a change in and of ourselves to where we truly have the empathy and care for those who are called to walk alongside of us and then exhibit that with sincerity and with genuinity. That's how you make a true deep connection and perpetuate it among your team members.

[00:29:30] Kon Apostolopoulos
Correct. And that's part of, at the heart of all of this is something that you speak a lot of and that's trust. And when I coach executives and they ask me, how do I get people to trust me more? My simple answer is be more trustworthy. And the way to become more trustworthy is to be consistent and authentic between your words and deeds. If you say you're going to do something, do it. If this is how How it resonates in your heart, speak it. And that's when people start trusting it. It's not an easy path. It's a simple path, but it's not an easy path to be. And that's why there is so much distrust in the world because we constantly are reminded of people that are inauthentic or inconsistent with what they're trying to do. So that's a big part of it, but that's a foundation for all that. I mean, that mutual respect and trust is so important in all of these pieces for engagement. If that doesn't exist, then you don't really have a foundation to build on engagement. 100%. Um, but in the sense of timing and everything else, I want to kind of touch on the other two things for our leaders as well. I mean, I have a lot of stories and examples and case studies in the book that I speak to that in practical applications of these. One of the things that I want to ask people is, you know, for all of us, The third driver is the need to feel productive, the need to know that the time that we give, the gift that we give of our time is time well spent. And that's an important part of it. I explained it to people. I said, okay, if I was to give you a group photo that you are part of, so you and your friends were out and let's say it was Thanksgiving, you're around the table and I show you a group photo of that event. What's one of the first things that you're going to do?

[00:31:07]
 Well, if you're like any one of us, you're probably going to look for where you are in that picture. That's the first thing instinctively that we go and won't do. And that is the truth about anybody that's on our team. They want to know where do they fit into the bigger picture and how am I contributing? How does what I'm doing day in and day out contribute to this? And so from that perspective, it's important to be able to connect the dots for people. Don't assume that they know. But even the most basic work that they're doing, what seems trivial cleaning up the trash, refilling the refrigerator, putting together that data for that report, the most basic things have a connection to the most important things because they need to get done and they support something else. So when people understand the contribution that they're making, that is very powerful, isn't it? Dr. Nate. 

[00:31:56] Dr. Nate Salah
100 percent is, and you mentioned contribution a few times, and you also contrasted it with consumption. And I think that's important. It's an important distinction. And we've got to recognize whether we are fostering simply consumption. Or contribution, of course, both at the same time, and the contribution piece is the the part that gives us a sense of significance when our work is important and it's valuable in the grand scheme of the long term mission, where we are going, where do I love the way you put it? Where do I fit in this picture? And as you're as you're stating that I'm thinking, This is not only applicable, of course, in business, it's applicable at home in the family. It's applicable in your community, your church environment, your civic environment. This is universally human.

[00:32:50] Kon Apostolopoulos
Correct. And that's why I keep going back to these are not just employee needs. These are people needs. I mean, when you see the, the, the power of feeling like you're contributing, like being productive, you have. Just look at volunteers, look at volunteers that are giving of themselves, their time, their energy, their funds, whatever their gifts are without expecting anything back from a, from a financial standpoint, they don't do it for the money. They do it to make a difference and knowing that what they're contributing is making a difference. And that's the power that we need to harness as leaders. Where can we get people believing in the mission? Like you said, extraordinary. Care and understanding that what they're doing is making a difference and how they're contributing. That's how people are willing to do all of the things that they need to do that discretionary effort that we want. And then the final part, the final driver that I want to make sure that we communicate to our audience today is the need that we all have to feel supported to learn and grow. I explained this, the image that I give to people for this one is that water is a life source. It's a foundation of a lot of our life and everything else on this planet. But the difference between a swamp and a river is stagnation and flow. And so people don't want to feel stagnated at work. They don't want to feel like they're in a swamp. They want to feel like they're in a flowing river. And sometimes granted that flow feels like.

[00:34:13]
 Level five rapids, but at times they want to feel that movement because that's better than stagnation. So for all of us as a leader, we want to make sure that we give people the opportunity to understand that different activities on the job or different things are learning opportunities, opportunities to continue to grow, to evolve, to become a better version of ourselves. So that every day when we come in, there's an opportunity to contribute, to grow, to learn from something, to get something back. From what we are doing in an environment, in a learning organization that demands that we continue to push the boundaries and improve performance sometimes as an evolution and incrementally, and sometimes as a revolution and a breakthrough, and that's part of what we want to do. We want to invite people in for that and want to make sure that when they come to us, they're not just coming in and that's it. But there is a career path, there is a flow, there's an opportunity. 

[00:35:09] Dr. Nate Salah
So critical, so critical. In fact, our, our fourth core value is to grow purposefully. And it's, it's a bookend in a lot of ways of the story because growth is directly related to progress and progress, as you know, is directly related to staving off burnout. Right. People generally will tend to burn out when they believe or at least perceive that there's no further possibility for progress. That's a sure marker for the eventual burnout. Like there's, hey, there's nothing else for me here to spread my wings and find new ways to be holy me. And we have to provide those kind of opportunities because progress means, again, like you said, the change that's necessary to go from here to there. If we don't need change, we don't need leaders. And we always, always need change. We're not talking about massive change, disruptive innovation every day, but the kind of incremental change that gives us that sense. That we are better tomorrow than we are today. 

[00:36:16] Kon Apostolopoulos
 Right. And again, it doesn't always have to, uh, changing things that we could do, mentor somebody, give them a special project, do something else that will mix it up a little bit, give them an opportunity to look at the same thing from a different angle and challenge them to look at it and grow. Because again, even the people that crave, you know, routine, We'll still want some variation at some point. So be mindful of that as a leader and look for those opportunities, because if they cannot satisfy their career aspirations and their growth needs in your organization, they're going to find it somewhere else. 

[00:36:55] Dr. Nate Salah
That's exactly right. And so for us to do that further identifies that we care. Because what we're doing is we're asking those questions. Hey, here's where you're going. Here's your pathway. Here's what you love to do. You know, how can we help your future to be everything that you desire to be? Wow. And to say that with sincerity, genuinity and action behind it, that is, is it's so powerful. What a powerful way. 

[00:37:20] Kon Apostolopoulos
To continue to move forward correct and sometimes you know, it's the exact opposite situations. Dr. Nate where I've had people because of their life circumstances, whether it's the birth of a new child, whether it's a change in the marital status, whether it's caregiving for a loved one where they are not only not looking at. Their next promotion, but they are trying to figure out how can they ensure that they continue to have a paycheck and a job under these circumstances to be able to do what they need to do. And so the challenge to support them in this growth may be a different way of working. That's that meets their needs. You still show that you're caring about them as a person and their situation, but also offering them a path within their organization to continue to give and to give freely and to give wholeheartedly because then they know they are being fostered. They are part of something bigger. They can be productive. They are valued. They all of those engagement pieces come together.

[00:38:19] Dr. Nate Salah
I love it. It's so it's so beautiful. Uh, and how life giving how enriching this conversation is and how much value do we show? Um, when we show up in this way, it's not impossible. As you said, in many ways, it's not. It's actually quite simple.  It's just work. And it's the kind of work that has massive reward. 

[00:38:42] Kon Apostolopoulos
And it's a choice that we can choose to operate this way. You know, there might be people that are listening to us that say, you know what, Hey, that's all fine and dandy, but this fluffy stuff, I'm just not that I'm in this kind of business. I produce widgets. I do this. I do that. And you hear that all the time, the word of caution that I have for them, especially if they're a small business owner out there, if there's somebody who's looking at their financial bottom line, to me, it's a choice. Engaging your people, creating an environment of engagement, creating, using the blueprint to really build the culture that you want of, of commitment and performance is not just the right thing to do. It makes good business sense. And let me illustrate the point. If I may, for a moment, doc, when Gallup did their study last year, they found that the lack of productivity, the loss of productivity due to disengagement, people feeling disengaged at work across the globe was 8. 9%. Trillion dollars us. That's almost 9 percent of the global GDP. And for a small business owner, that might seem like a number so big that it's like, okay, that's totally irrelevant to me, but I will encourage them to think about it in their terms on their scale. That same report found that for every 10, 000 that you pay a disengaged employee, In your work, they're costing you 3, 400 in lost productivity. Do the math. If one in three people are claiming they're engaged and one in six are actively disengaged, trying to sabotage your business, do the math. 

[00:40:16] Dr. Nate Salah
Do the math. I love that. Again, it's that time of year at the recording of this. I just was watching, um, the Charles Dickens, uh, story, uh, you know, who Ebenezer Scrooge, and I remember at the very beginning when he was With his employee, Bob Cratchit and, and Bob was getting ready to put another coal in the fire because he could barely move his fingers. It was so cold in there. And of course, Scrooge wanted to save pennies on, on the, the coal, but he didn't realize his employees productivity was probably about 40 percent because he could barely use his fingers to write down the notes. And he was constantly having to move his hand into the, into the candle. And I'm thinking as you're Tom thinking, look at all this productivity. That's being lost on a lump of coal, on a lump of coal. I mean, of all things, right. It's like we're missing the forest for the trees. 

[00:41:07] Kon Apostolopoulos
Correct. And that's where a lot of business owners and leaders, senior leaders fall short because they're looking at the wrong number. I mean, That's part of where we need to get beyond that. It's like staring at a fire. You're going to get caught up in that. It's going to blind you to everything else around it. And you need sometimes to avert your eyes from the big thing that's screaming at you there, that's saying, Oh my God, because the people costs on a PNL are probably one of the largest items on that. Cost side of things. And if you look at it purely as a cost, it will always shock you. And you're going to try to find ways to cut, to trim that, how many lumps of coal you're going to use. But if you look at that line as an investment for your business, it changes your mindset. You're willing to put that extra lump of coal on there because you know, it's going to boost productivity and how people feel.

[00:41:57] Dr. Nate Salah
Absolutely. So if, if there's a, if there's an illustration we can leave our, our listener with, is that lump of coal, is that lump of coal, it's such a small price to pay for, for the, the, the warmth, if you will, uh, that will illuminate and radiate through not only our organizations, of course, other areas of leadership, our families, our communities and abroad. As we close, Uh, every so often I have the opportunity to ask a question of our esteemed guest, and thank you so much for being a part of this program and this journey for our listener, Massive Impact. One day, you will be at the end of that journey, that great summit, if you will, at the very top, seeing all of the, uh, the wonderful, uh, wonderful people you've been able to, to have this kind of a positive impact for perhaps people you'd never even met who have been impacted by your words of wisdom and your empathy and tough love. And so on that day, when, uh, when you get to see all that at the very end of your journey here, if there was one, one phrase or one thought that would be left in the minds of those who you impacted about you. What would that be? 

[00:43:13] Kon Apostolopoulos
I think I'll leave it with the way I close out the book as well. I have the expression in the book, the grass is not greener on the other side. The grass is greener where you water it. And so take responsibility, take personal accountability for your little patch of grass, water it, care for it, tend for it, and watch how it becomes an attraction for somebody else looking across their fence and inspire others to do the same. Because those actions will inspire others.

[00:43:40] Dr. Nate Salah
Well, my friend, you are watering your grass. Thank you so much, Kon, for being on the program. Such a delight. Thank you, Dr. Nate. Well, my friend, thank you for joining me on this episode of A Call to Leadership. If you've been listening, you've probably heard me talk about Our accounting and advisory business. And this show is actually born out of that business. Those relationships. I found that entrepreneurs and professionals were missing aspects of their leadership that fed into their bottom line and helped them. their businesses be successful. So I'm so thankful that I've had all those years in that area to feed into this. And the truth is that so many people still need accounting and advisory help and they don't know where to go. If you're in that place where you feel, Oh my goodness, my tax person or my accountant, I can't find them or maybe the service wasn't up to my expectations. Do not despair. I'll leave how you can find us in the show notes and one of my team members can do some discovery and help you along your journey. You're not alone, my friend. You always have help. I'm Dr. Nate Salah. Can't wait to see you on the next show of A Call to Leadership.






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