A Call To Leadership

EP265: Unpacking DEI with Dr. Joel Pérez

• Dr. Nate Salah

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Dr. Joel Pérez breaks down what true leadership is all about in this episode as we chat about how leaders can navigate diversity, equity, and inclusion with confidence. Plus, you’ll learn actionable insights for fostering belonging and engagement in organizations. So tune in and learn to lead with greater impact, empathy, and effectiveness.



 Key Takeaways To Listen For

  • What cultural humility means and why it’s critical for leaders
  • How identity and privilege impact leadership and workplace dynamics
  • The difference between equity, opportunity, and meritocracy in organizations
  • Strategies for creating inclusive environments without sacrificing accountability
  • The power of curiosity and active listening in leadership growth
  • How to amplify diverse voices and foster a culture of belonging



 Resources Mentioned In This Episode



About Dr. Joel Pérez
Dr. Joel is a leadership coach, speaker, and consultant who empowers leaders and organizations to cultivate cultural humility and achieve lasting impact. He specializes in identity-conscious coaching, guiding professionals through DEIB initiatives, career transitions, and organizational culture development.

With over 20 years of experience in higher education and numerous certifications, Dr. Pérez has a proven track record of shaping inclusive and high-performing organizations. He is the author of the book, "Dear White Leader: How to Achieve Organizational Excellence through Cultural Humility," and the creator of the LinkedIn Learning course, "Strategies to Develop Self-Awareness." Dr. Pérez holds a doctorate in higher education administration from Claremont Graduate University.



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[00:00:00] Dr. Nate Salah
Hello, my friend, and welcome to this episode of A Call to Leadership. I'm Dr. Nate Salah, your host, so glad you are here. Today's hot topic, DEI. Of course, recent news, the president just dismantled all DEI-related activities in government circles, and now it is continuing to be under the microscope. Does it matter? Is it relevant? Is it a distraction? What place does it have? Are we in a situation to where we are being? Shamed for our background. Of course, I've come from a Middle Eastern environment, and looking at it from that perspective, I don't want special treatment. I don't want anything to give me a handout. I just want a hand up. Well, it's a contentious conversation and I think it's one that needs to continue to be broadened. And I've invited an expert, Dr. Joel Perez, who's written on this. And in his book, the very first words in his title Our Dear White Leader. So, as you can hear from that message, he is calling out those who desire to grow as leaders in this space.


[00:01:16] 
And I am open for dialogue no matter where it takes us. I will be a conduit to reason and talking through these very difficult issues with the level of desire for mutual understanding. Can't wait for you to listen in. I'm Dr. Nate Salah. This is A Call to Leadership, Dr. Joel. Welcome to the program. Great. Thanks for having me, Dr. Nate. Yeah, man, uh, I've been looking forward to this, and partly, you know, I, we, uh, get connected with different folks who are possibly relevant, partly because of the title of your book. And I know we're going to talk about it, and rightfully so, it gets attention. Right. It's, uh, so, you know, it starts with, dear white leader. Is that, did I say that correctly? That is correct. Yeah. Yeah. So, it definitely sends the message. Of course, it is an avatar. Riches are in the niches, all these things that we talk about. And, so. I'm going to unpack, some of the concepts that you talk about your, your drive is in coaching. And also, you know, from the perspective of, Hey, the entrepreneur and the entrepreneur journey, who is our primary, primary listener.


[00:02:23] 
And, so let's, you know, let's just, let's just, I don't even like to use this terminology. Let's say open the kimono cause it doesn't sound very, uh, it doesn't sound very PC. Let's get some clarity. You know, because you, you talk about, uh, cultural humility, which I love the, the construct and the terminology, but I think we should start with clarifying. How do you define, how do we define, a white leader? 


[00:02:53] Dr. Joel Perez
Yeah, so thank you for, again, thank you for having me on. I think it's important to address the title because generally, I've had conversations with people who are like, so tell me a little bit about the title because it kind of just, I don't know, and so what I tell people and it's a truth is that, and you know, as you alluded to this, when you, when you write a book, if you, if you don't have an audience, you have no audience. And so, the target audience is white leaders who want to get better at leading diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging work, but don't know where to start or feeling stuck. That is the target audience. It is provocative. It does cause people to virtually pick it up on Amazon, or if it's in a bookstore, pick it up, look at the back and dive into, you know, at least look at the, the, the chapter titles. Yeah. So when I, when I say, and actually I've been doing these workshops, all these full for humility workshops with a fairly diverse groups, ethnically diverse groups, um, And, um, inevitably folks from that aren't white come up to me and say, this is great. Like I can apply this even as a black leader. Um, and so every concept in the book applies to every leader, but the target audience is white leaders, mainly because there's a lot of white executive leaders. Who are trying to figure out how to navigate this stuff, and it's complex, and so I talk about it.


[00:04:15] 
The way I talk about is a cultural humility allows you to navigate the complexity that comes with leading diversity equity. inclusion and belonging efforts or trying to build an inclusive organization, organization that fosters, um, fosters a deep sense of belonging. And so that's kind of my, that's the overview. And so yes, white leader is someone who identifies as white, uh, as their ethnic group. But like I said, uh, having conversations with leaders who aren't necessarily, who aren't white or who don't identify as white. Still, find value in the concepts as they think about how it applies to the way they lead. And I talk about, I talk about it as leading exceptionally, not just effective, because effective is your bar. It's a, it's a low bar. You need to be striving to be exceptional. And so that's one aspect. I say one of the aspects is developing a posture of cultural humility. 


[00:05:12] Dr. Nate Salah
Yeah, well, I'm glad, I'm glad we start here because. It can be confusing, and I think about it like, okay, so what makes a person white or identify as white and you hear this, you know, the term, et cetera, you and I, I guess we would be considered off white, maybe, I don't know. It's like, it's right. I mean, considered, so you're of Hispanic descent, as I understand. Yeah. I'm Mexican. 


[00:05:34] Dr. Joel Perez
American parents immigrated from Mexico in the late fifties, met Los Angeles, fell in love. I am white presenting or white-passing. Um, and so, which I talk about in the book, it gives me, allows me to enter into conversations that folks who have darker skin may not be able to enter in. And so, I, people don't, don't realize I identify as Mexican American until they start talking to me. And it's clearly, One of my, um, identities and something I value that culture, uh, that I bring into a conversation, but if you were to just to see me on the street, you would say, there's a bald guy who looks white. Uh, and so, um, and I talk about this, right? I call it, you know, it's not my theory. It's the cultural iceberg theory, right? We only see 10 to 15 percent of what's above sea level. I can. Iceberg or what they see face value. But then, when you start talking with people, you realize there's so much more, whether it's faith. Political affiliation, whether it's whether you're, you know, whether you're a parent, whether you identify as LGBTQ plus, um, whether you are from a divorced family, you know, all the stuff that goes underneath sea level that makes us who we are, uh, but we only see what we see.


[00:06:50] Dr. Nate Salah
Well, and that's, and that's, it's part of the conversation because you had mentioned, you know, white or identifying white, and I'm like, okay, well. Then we start to look at geography, of course, a different aspect of, of that, of that conversation. Of course, it doesn't necessarily mean your skin color, as you, as you said. So, for example, in my family, my family is, from the Near East, I guess you'd say, uh, Palestinian descent. Like I'm, I'm, I'm one of the lighter ones in the family. So after 911, it came in handy, but, but my brother. Who, you know, we have, our gene pool is, is pretty stinking similar. He came out pretty dark. So, you know, he's always had that sort of, uh, those challenges that perhaps I could get through the checkpoint. Right. Without, without being, uh, set aside. And I say that kind of, kind of cheekily, but I guess the point I'm making is that. You know, your skin color does not necessarily define whether or not you are white, right?


[00:07:44]
 And so even looking at it from the perspective, okay, well then geographically, what is it? Is it European? You know, you know, are there, what are other factors? And you talked about being Uh, Mexican American, of course, the Spaniards came and, and, and, and, and conquered, if you will, or settled, however, you want to describe the, the, the narrative and, or both. And, of cours,e they're considered white, as Europeans, of course, there's some darker and lighter Spaniards and so on. And same thing in Italy and different parts of Europe, Southern Europe, Northern Europe, et cetera. And, you know, depending on, you know, you can go to North Africa and see folks who are. Olive-colored skin, if you want, if you will, or perhaps different. My, I have uncles who have, uh, blonde hair and blue eyes, and, and, and we're born and raised generation after generation in, Jerusalem. So that's where I think the lines, you know, start to, people start to question, well, you know, what makes me white?


[00:08:40]
 What does it make me white? Say, for example, uh, we have some folks who I know, in our camp who have a, African American father and, and, and a white. Mother, and I don't want to say Caucasian because the Caucasian has some blurred lines too, because I would consider myself a Caucasian, you know, of course, Caucasian mountains and coming from the Middle East, those are also, so yeah, so it gets confusing.


[00:09:03] Dr. Joel Perez
And that's why I say it's this idea of posture of cultural humility. It allows you to navigate the complexity because identities will continue to change, culture changes, and meaning that we need to be nimble, uh, to be able to lead people from. Different backgrounds, perspectives that come to organizations who want to feel like they belong. So it's up to us as leaders to figure out how do we get to know those we lead in a way that's going to help them feel connected to who we, who we are as leaders and what this organization about, and the mission we're trying to, you know, accomplish. And that comes with getting below the C level. So I talk about, you know, developing, um, you're having a growth mindset, uh, being deeply curious, listening, and that's going to help us get to know the narratives of the people we lead, uh, to create that environment or culture within our organizations that people feel like they truly belong and can truly thrive in our organizations. And that's the important work, but it's hard work. It's not an easy lift. But it's important work. If you want your organization to sustain and be successful, right? And you want the employee engagement to be high. Well, you know, what does it mean to create employee engagement? So yet your employees feel like they're being productive and that they're valued, uh, and that they can do the work that they've been hired to do and and be able to connect with people that they work with and who they work for.


[00:10:30] Dr. Nate Salah
Yeah, no doubt. And I think that belonging. Is an essential aspect of productivity, of cohesiveness, of cultural, uh, in terms of your organizational culture of shared values, shared goals. And as, as leaders, we must start with identifying what barriers we have to our individual team members, having a sense of belonging to the overall mission, the vision, the values, and their voices being heard to contribute. To a greater cause, a cause that's greater than themselves, right? I'm 100 percent on board for that. And of course, you know, we didn't time this, but just the, the conversation around the DEI, uh, and, and of course in our nation and especially the United States and some changes happening with the new administration, Trump and the government changes, you know, it's a, it's a timely conversation. And I was. Yeah. I don't have a, I don't know what you call it. A, a stake in the game. I'm really fascinated. Of course, as you had said, and you've said this before, it's very polarized issue, right? You have a very, you've got folks who are like, yes, we must have this. And others will say, Hey, it's a distraction.


[00:11:42]
 We've, you know, et cetera. And then. There's those of us, perhaps who are like, well, Hey, let's talk it out. So we can better understand what the mechanics are, and perhaps it, it doesn't necessarily need to be government-mandated, but we need to. Certainly, there's some aspects of the conversation that helps us to have a greater sense of accomplishment and unity in organizations. And so, you know, so, and that's where I like to start because I'm, I'm 100 percent in favor of diversity. I believe that, uh, diversity is a necessary aspect of how we share ideas. Homogenization means things to get done the same way. You know, we must, we must have a diverse thought. To move forward, as you know, this being, you know, coming out of academia, right? So much. You probably remember when you had to defend an argument, you also had to defend the Karnar argument to fully understand the different, all the different variables in how this moves together. So I'm not against diversity. I'm, I'm 100 percent for it. However, I think some of the challenges that come across or what I hear is that, hey, when diversity is mandated, then it reduces the possibility for a meritocracy or individual effort to have its own set of outcomes. So, in other words, many people believe in equal opportunity, just not equal outcome. How does let's talk about that a bit. 


[00:13:06] Dr. Joel Perez
Yeah, what you say is true. I think, um, there needs to be space for people like you just identified, right? You are, you're not one extreme, and you're not the other extreme. You are in the middle. And unfortunately, both sides have squeezed the middle out. So, people feel like they cannot share their perspective because they're afraid to be labeled either. You want to use conservative or liberal, either ultra-conservative or ultra liberal. So We don't want to hear you, so we shut you out. Well, the problem is, there's a lot of us that, like you, are shut out, and then we feel like, well, I don't want to talk, I don't want to ask questions, because then I get isolated, and or I don't feel like I'm not being given space to articulate my particular viewpoint. And that's where the curiosity piece comes in, where I think, no matter what side you're on, to be able to really fully engage in a conversation, where you leave the conversation with a better understanding of that perspective, it's not a conversation for you to Seek to convince someone I call it. You know what?


[00:14:03]
 What I talk about in the book is seeking to seeking to understand versus seeking to convince, right? And so, I do believe that organizations can move towards equity going to if you really want to stay with the belonging piece. I think I believe it's data guided. And so if you really want to retain your talent and you collect data with, you know, depending on how you collect data around employee engagement, you recognize that there's a particular group within your organization that is not being retained at the level you would like to then to go in and kind of, okay, what, what, what is it that's happening here? Why are they, why are they not staying, or why are they not advancing to the levels we want them to? So that you can identify where the leaky faucet is or the leaky pipe is and try to figure out how do we fix it? And so I do think it's important to recognize and hear people's stories and create space for that within an organization and outside organization, whether it's your faith community, whether it's the pickleball club down the street.


[00:15:04] 
So you're able to engage in those conversations in a way that helps you lead with a better understanding. You may change your perspective, but you may not. Uh, what I tell people when I get into these workshops with people is I'm not saying you have to change your beliefs or values. I'm saying, can I think we would be a better society if we created space for conversation, even if we may not end up agreeing at the end of the day, and so to create that conversation takes work, and that's where the curiosity, the growth mindset, and the listening piece really come in, and then you may decide in your organization, Hey, we want people So you'd be treated equally. And we want to create pay equity. Um, so how do we do that? Cause we know we're. We're struggling particularly with maybe, uh, women in our organization or the African Americans in our organization or whatever, whatever, however, you want to slice and dice the information I always talk about with organizations who collect data, particularly around employee engagement is here's a higher education, here's an academia term, disaggregate the data or break it up.


[00:16:13] 
Stop it up so you know exactly where, where your folks are at every level and even, you know, entry-level, mid-level, senior-level. If we want to fix it, how do we fix it? But the organization has to. I talk about this in one of the chapters, you have to link your work to mission, vision, values. If your mission is to create the best widget and engage in the community we reside in, and if your customers are, if you're doing research with your customers and you know they're from a diverse group, then you may want to get into this work because you know that Eventually, if you have customers who really believe in your product and your mission, they're going to want to come back to you and spend money, right, or make an investment. I've said a lot there, but I think it's important to recognize that it starts with creating space. In an organization or particularly with folks you lead in a leadership role to engage in that developing that other awareness so you can hear people's stories and then also look at your own organizational data to figure out if you want to be successful in retaining your talent, what does that look like and where where is the leaky faucet and where is the leak coming from or who is leaking out?


[00:17:28]
 And if it's important to you enough, then you're gonna figure that out. Do the work and kind of, you know, get into it. But you gotta create space for dialogue for meaningful dialogue. And that's where he will get tripped up. I believe that they're fearful of it because they're like, well, I don't want to engage in this conversation because it's always going to, you know, I'm going to be labeled a racist, or I'm going to be labeled a bigot, or I'm going to be labeled a. You know, 100 percent progressive, and I don't want people to then start judging me. And so then I shut down, right? I don't talk about things. And that's the problem that's happened is then we allow the talking head to dictate what's important to us on either side because we're not willing to have a conversation. So I really have enjoyed the work of Eboo Patel, um, with Interfaith America, bringing people from different perspectives together to have conversation, have dialogue with ground rules. So that way we know what's acceptable, what's not acceptable and how do we have a conversation without it, you know, turning into something about in turning into a shouting match because that's how we're understanding is going to happen.


[00:18:31] Dr. Nate Salah
I agree. And I think you made a couple points that are relevant that I think are so important when you when you talked about equity equal pay, of course, women and whatnot. I think that's something that a lot of people can, can get behind. Right. Because the. The idea of equity can get also blurred lines again, back to the conversation earlier about equal opportunity, not necessarily equal outcomes. And when you say, well, what does that mean? That means, in my opinion, and here's how for leaders like myself, you know, we believe, I believe deeply in creating opportunities for others, but also in the value of merit and the, and the, and the. And the effort at the same time, it's my role as a leader to provide a pathway for you to be successful. So, I didn't bring you onto this team to fail. I brought you onto this team to set you up for success. And my part of my essential role is to provide you with the resources necessary to get to do your best possible work on this team.


[00:19:32] Dr. Joel Perez
Yes. And if that's important to you, and you say it's important to you, then you have to live it out, right? You have to put it into practice. It just, it shouldn't just be words. It has to be action. Um, and sometimes it's having hard conversations and creating space for those conversations. And for you as a leader. So, in the book, I talk about how my own bias was pointed out to me. Um, even as a man of color, I still struggle with bias, and it was, in this case, I forget the pseudonym I use in the book. It comes to mind every so often, but, um, Hey, Joel, you know, do you realize that you pay attention more to the men in the meeting and the people who are more vocal, so the extroverts. And to me, it was a moment like, well, shoot, like I, this value of diversity. I have. I say diversity is a value of mine. I say creating an inclusion organization is important yet. I still mess up even as a C-suite executive, a man of color who's raising biracial children, who does this work. I still have bias.


[00:20:35] 
So, I stress that it's important to stress because we all struggle with it. We all are going to make mistakes. There's we're not we can never be perfect leaders are always going to make mistakes. It's what we do with those mistakes, right? I could have done one. I could have done one of two things in that one. I could have gotten defensive I just said well, you're out. You're out of line. Like no, I don't do that, Or I could have like well, that's just the way it is. You're just gonna have to like suck it up and move on, or what I did was sit and apologize first and say I'm so Sorry I really want to know where I'm making this mistake. And so we had dialogue. We had a conversation and then I took that information, and then I started changing the way I led meetings and checking myself before the meeting. I share that example in the book one because I want people to know that no matter how much you say you're for diversity or doing this work, you're still gonna trip up, and so we have to be in this together.


[00:21:29] 
Right. We can't do this alone. And when it means by doing it together is you have to create an environment where your team right has the safety to come to you and say, Hey, Joel, you know, that's not right. Or you're kind of, you kind of messed up and I want to have a conversation with you. Right. And that's important work to go towards creating that sense of belonging, that culture belonging you want to create in your organization.


[00:21:52] Dr. Nate Salah
100%. And I think that your model and your example of what we call, I tend to affectionately call, uh, reflection rather than deflection, right? To, you know, to, to reflect on the moment rather than deflect and say, Oh, you know, I'll brush it off and, and, and, and take a defensive position. Take it in as constructive criticism and the goal, the ultimate goal. Feedback is essential no matter what the feedback is. And so, if there's something that is perhaps hindering my ability to lead effectively team, please make me aware of it. I'm not omnipotent, right? There's so many things I could be doing. More effectively to create greater, greater cohesiveness and, and that we could win together, and I need to hear those things. I think when you, when you live in that way and you set that model example, then it becomes safe space to have that across the organization. And I think that's so important to do, Joel. And the idea then that inclusiveness then is, Hey, let's include all the ideas, and whichever ideas continue to move us forward together as a team, let's integrate those ideas. And that's just really innovation, right? That's what ideas are, right? It's just, it's just another way to say, and I think when you can be, when you can walk in a higher level of maturity. In your walk and what I say about maturity, it's this. I don't have all the answers. Right. I never will. Right. And this is where humility comes in.


[00:23:19] 
Right. Humility is saying, hey, I'm a part of the learning process in this organization, and I want you all to grow. Exponentially, I want to be a part of that growth. Let's work together so that we can find ways we can, we can all grow together. That's a beautiful thing. Problem is that we've, that we, we now associate this terminology, if you will, DEI. With a, this negative construct, if you will, and I think there's a lot of baggage that goes along with it in terms of, of perhaps lack of accountability where people say, Hey, you know what, if, if I have to put,, what do you call it? Like training wheels on for everyone, then, you know, who's going to get work done. I mean, these are real questions. Like if, and here's, let me just, let me just call it out. If I go to one of my small business owners and say, Hey, this week we're going to work on DEI. And. They'll look at me like I have three eyes. Some of them won't even know what the term is. Others will say, Hey, Nate, Hey, I need to make payroll.


[00:24:20] 
Okay. So, if this will help me make payroll tomorrow, I'm all for it. But if it doesn't, we need to talk about this another day. Or I need to make sure that, uh, you know, my customers get their service they need. I need to make sure I hire the person that's best for this position. And. These are real questions that people are asking today, and it's really difficult when you, when you couch it under, if you will, a phrase like this. However, when you start to unpeel the onion, and you just have conversations like we're having about, Hey, you know what, let's get ideas going, let's make sure that everyone has a say in how we move forward based on their role and responsibility, et cetera, et cetera, make sure no one gets left behind with the resources that are necessary for them to do great work. Like, um, People aren't going to say, Oh, no, I'm not all for that, right? That's like, it's one on one in a way, uh, running a business. 


[00:25:11] Dr. Joel Perez
Yes, I agree. I think the problem is we've not developed the posture or the ability to be deeply curious. So, when we hear terms, right, where we automatically put them in a bucket. Without really exploring what we're actually saying, so, you know, if you were to use, well, we need to stop woke ism, right? Um, I would say, well, say what you, like, help me understand what you mean by woke ism. And to engage in a curiosity, a conversation of curiosity, conversation with curiosity, to really unpack what people are trying to say. And my guess is if we have a real deep conversation about woke ism, we're probably get, gonna get to the same place. And we're not going to really like, no, one's going to like that person may not. Well, I don't know where they really, what I mean by woke I just heard it. And I'm labeling everything that right or everything, diversity, everything, equity, everything, D E I. Well, let's talk about it just like I need to be questioned. Well, Joe, what do you mean by cultural humility? Help me understand what you mean by that. And yes, those conversations take time. But they're so important. And this is where I feel like, um, Dr. Nate, that we have lost the ability to be with people we disagree with, particularly politically.


[00:26:19] 
We don't enter some of it's a product of social media, of how fast we want things. We want information really rather quickly, and we don't enter into conversations with people that are not around politics, right? And so. Can you join a pickleball club where I use pickleball because I play pickleball and just play pickleball and just talk about, Hey, you know, what did you have for dinner today or how's the practice going? Right? So, we get to know people outside of the political conversation so we can humanize people. You mentioned faith, right? So whatever your faith perspective is, we are created in someone's image, and everyone's in that image. Right? And so, in my case. Protestant Christianity, God doesn't make mistakes, right? He created me, right? And these are the identities I hold. Don't boil me down to political affiliation because I have stuff outside of that, right? And so that's the problem is we've lost the ability to invite people into spaces where they can be something different than what We automatically go to, which is their politics. I believe that's really what's hurting our society and our organizations, because because then it becomes us versus that. 


[00:27:36] Dr. Nate Salah
Yeah, man, you hit it right in the head. And I think that's what a, what a, what a great way to to structure that. That sort of this next thought line about identity and you talk about, yeah, just as you were saying, it reminded me of Jesus and how many people he interacted with who weren't like him, the Samaritan at the well and the, the, the, the, the Roman centurion, these are, these are, they're people who are very different and And yet he didn't look at their identity based on their cultural heritage or their color of their skin or their demographic, where they came from, he looked at them as, as children of God. And that's a much different posture, different vantage point than the labels we put on. I think, and that's part of something I'd like to talk to you about, because. On the one side, clearly, like when you talk about the nature of bringing out the best in the team and, and doing whatever it takes to help every team member, it makes sense. Of course, when we start to use the terminology, then there's, um, you know, there's some polarization, right? But if we didn't use terminology at all, and we just labeled these concepts, it's like, oh, okay, great. The other part is. My, one of my fears is that then we begin to, single out one demographic, right?


[00:28:58]
 We begin to single out the white person, and then you have, you know, this sort of like white shaming or like, I'm sorry that I'm, you know, I'm white. I'm like, don't apologize. Right. That's or, or some are like, Hey, you know what? You don't know my situation. Like I have not had privilege in my life. I've got, you know, I've got drugs and drunkenness and abuse and zero opportunity. And I want to be sensitive to the circumstances that people face, because the last thing we want, ever want to do is to then have intolerance or a labeling of one particular group that said, Hey, you need to make some changes because you're the ones we're, we're focusing on. And I think there's. We need to talk about that as well.


[00:29:42] Dr. Joel Perez
Yeah, no, I think it's important. So, so, in the book, I talk about cancel culture a little bit. And the problem is that we've created organizations or spaces where people don't feel like they can say anything, even if they disagree with us. Because we're going to quote unquote, cancel them right now that there doesn't immediate accountability, right? So someone like sexually abuses on someone or sexually harasses someone or is discriminatory in a really, predatory way that needs to be corrected, right? There needs to be accountability for that. But it's important to say, can we create space for dialogue so people feel like they can ask questions Without having, I'm going to use HR as an example, right? Without an HR breathing down my neck, right? And that's where I think as leaders, leaders of color, white leaders, women, men, LGBTQ, need to, need to really work towards creating spaces. So everyone feels like, Hey, let's have a dialogue about this because I really feel like I want to learn, right? And I'm afraid to ask questions from a learning standpoint because you're like, how, you may say, well, how do you not know that?


[00:30:49] 
Like you should know that you should know not to say that. Right. But a lot of times we don't know what we should or shouldn't say, or what's going to be offensive or not offensive. Right. And so the importance of creating that space so people can genuinely be curious and ask questions is going to be really, really important. I talk about the idea of unearned versus earned privilege. So, even as a man of color, yes, I've had some privilege. I have a doctorate that gives me, uh, Privilege. The ability to, to like, I wrote a book, right? We talked about this earlier, right? Once you write a book, it seems to raise the credibility, right? Well, it gives me the opportunity to enter into spaces, right? A podcast interview with you or, or speaking or consulting, right? Um, Or 30 years experience. right? After I was born in this country, I have the ability to vote. I can show up in spaces and not be afraid to, you know, be picked up and move somewhere else, right?


[00:31:51] 
And that is my earned and un, I, we talked about it, I am white presenting, so that's an unearned privilege, right? I can enter into spaces I don't have to fear, be fearful of someone mis, misjudging me or, or label me something because of the color of my or the the darkness of my skin So I think when I when you talk about it., that way, with a privilege piece people start to recognize Like oh, okay. Yeah, I have some earned and unearned privilege, and that's something we need a dialogue about not that it's right or wrong. It's hey, you know, there's some things that I need to acknowledge and there's some things that you need to acknowledge. Let's talk about it. And what, where do we move? How do we move forward together? So that we are partnering with each other. We are journeying together. Whatever term you want to use is going to be really, really important. So I think, I mean, I would say even in my camp, people who would say are progressive, people who are doing this work. The diversity work, if you want to put them in that category, I've made some mistakes along the way, and we've, we've not allowed people to really ask questions and, or we've given them the dirty eye, like really, Joel, you're asking that question, like you should just, you know, you should know that answer.


[00:33:06] 
Well, I don't know the answer, and that's why I'm asking. So, and this is where the leadership piece is really important. As a leader, you need to recognize that, and not just put people in buckets and camps. Because then we start mislabeling people, and we start, like I said earlier, isolating people, where they feel isolated, and they cannot speak, because they feel like they are going to be fired, they are going to be labeled. They're not going to be given a promotion. Whatever that may be. And that's not right. 


[00:33:39] Dr. Nate Salah
It reminds me, as you were talking about, uh, this, this process of, uh, growing up and, uh, being picked for dodgeball or whatever it is, the game, right? And you, and you, and you're labeled. And you're labeled like, uh, just by, you know, sometimes they'll, they'll, you'll have a reputation based on, you know, your performance in the past. But oftentimes it's like, hey, okay, you look like, you know, you're taller and stronger or whatever, and you get picked first and second and third and so on. And it actually reminds, and you talk about privilege. It's interesting. And I was looking at the definition of privilege, just a, just a basic definition, Oxford, special right advantage or immunity granted. We're available only to a particular person or group. So just a very basic, basic definition and, and you're right. Privilege isn't necessarily because of the color of your skin that could be in a room or not, for example. And that could be anywhere you go, right? For example, I was just thinking about it.


[00:34:35] 
Speaking of games, I. A lot of my younger years growing up, I would call it the hood, right? So I was the lightest guy on the basketball, just playing basketball out on the street. And like, I had to prove myself like, can, can you play? And I had to, I had to prove myself to get in the game because I didn't have a special right or advantage. I did not have privilege. I was the, it was, it was, yeah, I mean, so I think it's important because. You know, there's different circles where you may or may not have privilege and, and privilege isn't necessarily a dirty word. Right? I think it's important to identify your advantage. Like I've been, you know, I've owned an accounting and advisory firm for 30 years. After 30 years, Dr. Joel, like we have an advantage. Why? Because we've proven ourselves in the marketplace that we do good work, right? Like that's, it's not, it's not necessarily—a negative thing. And I think it's important to make that distinction. It's just a word. 


[00:35:35] Dr. Joel Perez
Yeah, it's really important. And so when I do, when I do trainings when I coach, we talk about that. And sometimes, it's an aha moment for people. Like, oh, that's what it means. Because they've just been like hearing talking heads talk about. Privilege and, and that's, you know, a dirty word and, and they're going to make you feel guilty. Well, I mean, there's skill and nuance in doing facilitating workshops and training in a way that's going to be helpful for people and not harmful to people. And once I unpack it in the earned versus unearned, particularly as a man of color, I identify as a man of color, Mexican American, people are like, Oh, You have privilege too. So, just transparency. I was in the emergency room last night. I have a mild pneumonia. I didn't know I did. I went into the emergency room. I'm sitting there. I go six hours later. I'm discharged, right? And the guy asked for my, my copay. It's 100. I'm like, wow, I'm upper middle class. I can pay a hundred bucks. When I was 10 years old, I had a screaming ear infection. My parents, who were immigrants, were fearful of taking me to the doctor because they didn't know what it was going to cost, and they didn't have the money.


[00:36:52]
 So I laid there in pain. Last night I'm like, Oh, I have a problem. Just going to go to the emergency room. I have health insurance. I have a hundred bucks. Oh, I paid for it. I have those moments as a first generation college student graduate as well. Like they're seeing that I like, Oh, I now can do that. Like when I was growing up, I didn't have that privilege now I do. And when I share those stories, people. Who identify as white and or upper middle class or or come from wealthy families or even poor families will go. Oh, yeah, now I get it. That's an aha moment. And that's really important. And that's where the dialogue piece comes in and the nuance and doing this work in community is really, really important. You can't grow in this area without having others around you to learn from and check you, hold you accountable, have Hard conversations with, and that's people are going to call you out on your biases, whatever it may be, right? And that's important to recognize that you can't do this work by reading a book showing up at a conference. Obtaining a certificate that's all important work and should be doing, but you gotta do it in community. 


[00:38:07]
Yeah, right. You cannot do this alone, or else you're gonna make, well, one, you, again, you're gonna pick up bad habits and, and just assume things instead of like, no, let's, I really want to know about this. Help me understand this. And that's where having dialogue with someone is really important. 


[00:38:23] Dr. Nate Salah
Yeah, man. And, and questioning and checking our mindset and, and in terms of how. Look, we all have biases and I, I, my philosophy is don't let, don't allow your biases to affect your judgment. And so, let's work through the biases. It's just humanity, right? We have, we have biases. So, let's just start there. And at the same time, for me, like as growing up as a Palestinian American, and I share a lot of the, sort of the, the backstory that you do, we were very poor. And, and same, you know, first higher level education, graduate, et cetera, et cetera. I didn't want special treatment. I didn't want a handout. I wanted a hand up. And I think that's the important distinction. I don't think that you promote special treatment. You promote, Hey, let us find ways where we can bridge the gap. In the abilities that we each have so that we can all function as a cohesive team that gets across the finish line together, that's the difference, right? And I think that there's some dissonance there, and it's true, and I think that because it can be.


[00:39:30]
 It can be used in that way as well, where people say, Hey, look, Hey, no, no, we want, you know, X, Y, and Z. You're just going to let them, them, them slide. Right. It's like, well, Hey, that's not how championships are won. Championships are won by everybody's full effort so that we can all progress. But if there's this, you know, if you've got a player who has some kind of, perhaps a challenge that's impeding their progress, You need to address that and say, Hey, look, you know, how can I help you to be the best version of yourself you can be without singling you out or giving you, at the same time, don't, the whole shame game, you know, we need to stop the shame game of all of the different races and all this other stuff that needs to stop. And we need to start working together as one species, right? We are, we are all human beings. We come from different perspectives, we come from different understandings, different environments, and those are all useful to progression. 


[00:40:21] Dr. Joel Perez
The key will be to create space so that I get to know you, Dr. Nate, right? Like, I want to know your story, right? I don't just want to make some assumptions based on your accent, the way you look, the way you dress, uh, the place you come from. I want to get to know your story. And I think as leaders, it's imperative that we get to know our people and we may recognize, you know what? I want to help Dr. Nate out. Like, I want to give him a hand up in this case. Now, Dr. Nate may say, I don't want your help, right? Or I could say, you know, thank you, like there are times where I've really been. So I have, I have white coaches, white executive coaches. They've done a lot of good work are really successful. And I had one asked me once, uh, 'cause they know my story. Uh, they know I'm just, you know, been five years in now. I'm still kind of building the business. And she said to me, Joel, she's like, how do I amplify your voice? And I said, wow, no one's ever asked me that, right? Like, here's some things that I think you can do to help me.


[00:41:23]
 And she was willing to help me because she knows her perspective is I have, I have some barriers that I need to overcome because as a new entrepreneur, new business owner, that there are some challenges there, but she sees potential in what I can contribute to the coaching community, and she's like, I want to let people know about you. So, how do I do this? And I think it's important for senior leaders when you recognize that, like, okay, how do not, how do I help you, but what do you need, like, what do you need right now, or how do I amplify your voice? Those are two powerful questions that I 


[00:41:58] Dr. Nate Salah
think can be asked if you so choose to. That is an extremely powerful question, and it resonates, it hits me because people want to be heard, and of course, the value proposition they have, they want it to be significant, and they want it to be a contribution to whoever is in need. Of that help. So when we say when someone offers you that olive branch and says, Hey, I want to amplify your voice. I mean, again, back to Jesus. Like, I think so many voices got amplified with Jesus's methods and his teaching when people were hurting or they had a need. He amplified their voice by addressing that need and then speaking it out and helping them speak it out into the world. And I think that transcends identity. It transcends politics. It transcends all of those issues that we tend to bicker about. And it inspires that meaningful leadership change that we all know is necessary. That's it. Bro, I got, I got one question for you. This has been fantastic. So I, I, I'll ask this every so often when, when there's time at the end of the program. Eventually, uh, Dr. Joel, you will be on that great summit, the very end of this journey, this side of eternity. You'll see all of those wonderful people who you got to encounter. And, of course, the voices you had a hand in amplifying. What's one thing that you would have liked others to have said about? 


[00:43:32] Dr. Joel Perez
That I cared about people. No matter what their backgrounds and I was always willing to create space for them and to figure out ways to include them.


[00:43:42] Dr. Nate Salah
Well, you are on your way. Thanks for being here. Oh, thanks for having me. Well, my friend, we did it. I'm so honored you were able to join me on this episode of A Call to Leadership. Now, this might not be for everyone because you really have to be in a certain place in order to take the kind of steps to level up your leadership. And I want you to be taking steps. And for those of you who feel like you're ready for something like this, there's a place you can go. You can go to our website, great summit.com. I'll make sure that's in the show notes, but here's the cool thing that we have. We've got a masterclass. We have all different kinds of events. We even have our leadership club where you can meet other people just like you to go deeper in your leadership journey. You and I all get to spend some time together and really focus on Aiming for greatness. Can't wait to see you there. I'm Dr. Nate Salah, and this is A Call to Leadership.

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