A Call To Leadership

EP271: The Perilous Pursuit of People Pleasing with Matt Anderson

• Dr. Nate Salah

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Most people aren’t struggling with faith. They’re drowning in self-condemnation. In this powerful conversation, we will explore the inner critic that keeps so many of us stuck in shame, striving, and spiritual burnout. We’ll unpack the difference between living from love versus chasing worth, and explain why Jesus was drawn to authenticity over perfection. If you’ve ever felt like you're performing for God instead of walking with Him, this episode will challenge and free you in all the right ways.
 

Key Takeaways To Listen For

  • How to recognize, silence, and replace the voice that says "you're not enough"
  • Why focusing on performance over presence leads to burnout
  • How naming our thoughts gives us power over them
  • What happens when we chase the appearance of righteousness without tending to the roots
  • Why grace is a daily invitation, not a one-time transaction


 Resources Mentioned In This Episode


About  Matt Anderson
Matt is a former college athlete turned pastor, author, speaker, and leadership coach with a passion for helping others discover who they were truly created to be. As the Lead Pastor of Surprise Church in Bismarck, North Dakota, Matt brings authenticity, humor, and hard-earned wisdom to every conversation—whether he's preaching, writing, or mentoring leaders. He's currently working on his upcoming book Being Superhuman, a personal and powerful guide to silencing the inner critic and embracing a life of purpose rooted in faith. Whether on stage or in conversation, Matt’s greatest joy is helping people trade self-condemnation for self-acceptance, so they can live freely, love boldly, and lead with impact.


 Connect with  Matt Anderson

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[00:00:00] Dr. Nate Salah
Hello, my friend, and welcome to this episode of A Call to Leadership. I'm Dr. Nate Salah, your host, so glad you're here. Have you ever felt as though you had to measure up to someone else's idea of who you should be? People pleasing, self-condemnation, even self-hating? It happens to the best of us, and it's a, a real problem in our world. Pastor Matt Anderson has met this problem. Head on as he identifies in his book that we're gonna get a sneak peek on and really share how to find liberation from these challenges that we face in our world. In the head space where we know deep down inside, there's gotta be more than just checking boxes on what everybody else thinks and who they think I should be.

[00:00:55]
Can't wait for you to listen in. This is A Call to Leadership. Brother Matt, thank you for being on the program. So good to be here. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. You live in two worlds. You live in a church world, from a, as a pastor, and you live in the world, world, I guess you'd say when you do speaking and consulting and different engagements, and I always wonder when people meet you and you say, yes, I'm, I'm a pastor. Do they treat you a little differently than you, than they would treat you if you didn't say that? 

[00:01:28] Matt Anderson
Yep. I always say being a pastor and people asking you what you do as a conversation starter or a conversation killer, it can lead some people on the, on the plane to say, oh, okay, and then they notice something out the window, the rest of the flight, they don't wanna look my way. Or it can be, oh, you're a pastor. What do you think about X? A lot of times they wanna talk about s*x. Which I'm like, if you wanna talk to me about s*x, you have, you have to buy me dinner first. Come on. Or they want about politics or like religious denominational, theological differences or whatever. But sometimes it just gets to be a, a really honest conversation, heart to heart about life or about someone they've lost and they're wondering where they are now or an issue they're having in a relationship because I figure maybe, you know, something that, that would help. So it, I try not to hide it, but it, I do find that it, it has a, it sparks a unique reaction in, in each person. 

[00:02:23] Dr. Nate Salah
I'll bet. Yeah, I'll bet, I'll bet. Some people, feel as though they, shouldn't be saying certain words, probably. 

[00:02:31] Matt Anderson
They always apologize for swearing and that drives me nuts. Make me say, sometimes I'll even just drop a little, a little curse word just so to put 'em at ease. Like, hand me those dead peanuts. Here you go. And then I don't have to apologize for everything I say. So, yeah, they apologize Most of the time. It's an apology for words that you don't need to apologize for saying around normal adults. And I'm, and I'm like, alright, just be yourself. Just be yourself.

[00:02:59] Dr. Nate Salah
You know, there's so much reality to that, as you're saying. Saying that I, I agree. And even when I became, I guess you'd say, a faith-filled human being, e even my friends and family would apologize when they cussed in front of me, like as if I. You know, I was, you know, I was suddenly had this, you know, this cloak of, of spirituality that, was, you know, reverent in some way. I'm like, you can still be yourself. I mean.

[00:03:28] Matt Anderson
There's something to that. Yeah, yeah. 

[00:03:30] Dr. Nate Salah
Yeah. There's something to that, and it's what's interesting I think about like going back in time when you go back to Jesus' time and. The difference between Jesus and especially, you know, as we're right around Easter at the recording of this conversation, religious leaders and Jesus were much different at the time, and I would almost think that Jesus met people in a place where like they could be themselves because he was hanging out with, as you know, people who were of ill repute. Right. People who were like, oh, well, we're not part of the in crowd religiously. We we're kind of, you know, we're just tax collectors. Of course, at the time, tax collectors were considered, to be thieves, prostitutes, sinners as, as the, just a blanket, just regular folk too. Peter was a, you know, he just, he, he caught fish, right? He was out there, and we know the old saying about a sailor's tongue, right? So who knows? 

[00:04:33] Matt Anderson
Fishermen were seen as the lower class bottom, wrong class, maybe just a tier above tax ledgers and Senator. So like he intentionally. When after people who had pretty much given up on the battle to, to climb the corporate ladder or the life ladder, they, they'd given up trying to get invited to the parties that be recognized in the community when they got through, you know, training in their religious schools before they could be invited to follow a rabbi. They were not asked to follow a rabbi. They went into their father's tradition, got trained as fishermen, and they'd kind of given up on any of the, the quest to climb the stairway. And then here comes this rabbi saying, I, I want you. Instead of being a rabbi that surrounded himself with the best and the brightest, he went after the lowest and the outside and the outcast, and I think a lot of these people had given up on that.

[00:05:19]
 I imagine those conversations were so unpretentious, like the, the, the slips of the tongue that they didn't even bother apologizing for. 'cause it's just how they talked and I, I just find comfort Jesus was attracted to those people that were not. You know, trying to impress people constantly that, that had kind of accepted their status in society and their, even though he wanted to do something great in their life, there was a, there's a certain kind of peace and authenticity that comes from not trying to always. Improve in the eyes of others and play the games. And I, I, I just think it's very telling that Jesus was attracted to those kinds of people more so than the upper crust, that that really were entrenched in that game constantly as a style. 

[00:06:06] Dr. Nate Salah
That's good. That's good. And, and you think about that. I even just try to put yourself in that, in that place in time where even his contemporaries were questioning his motives and why, why would you hang out with these people? Why would you invite them into your midst in your company? Why would you minister to them? They're undesirables. Exactly. 

[00:06:33] Matt Anderson
Untouchable. Yeah. He took flack for that and he was willing to, and he also dished it back out to those folks. I think the reason we started our church, my church that I started 10 years ago in Bismarck with my family called Surprise Church in Bismarck, North Dakota. It's based on the story of the Prodigal son, where a father throws a surprise party for a son who was lost and decided to come home risking that he wouldn't be welcomed home. Jesus was telling the story in front of religious leaders who were criticizing him for hanging out with drunks, tax collectors and sinners, just as you say. And instead of just listening and, and trying to console his listeners like, don't, you're not that bad. You not that bad. He gets pissed off and he turns to these guys and he tells 'em the story that put them to shame and at the same time defended, um, the people that were being criticized and, and, and, and spoke really to the heart of God.

[00:07:29]
 So in one fell swoop, he tells three stories in a row. Lost sheep, lost coin, lost Son that are like three pounds of an of, of a. A mall into the the facade that these religious leaders were trying to erect saying, we're better and you're supposed to be better, but you're down there with them. And he just really obliterated their whole system with these stories and talk about really, if you are following God, your job is to be about people who are needing you to be a good example. Of a gracious, open-hearted human being and not a person who's so consumed with their own ambitions that you can't even see straight to, to love others Well, and I think he, he really reacted with his visceral reaction when he came into contact with that religious pretension, especially religious pretension. He, he didn't bother so much with like. The Romans, like you'd think he would be after those guys all the time. As, as politically active, as so many of my friends are, and, and, and very offended by this politician or that politician, you go back to ancient Rome and you could be offended all day every day. But he was mostly concerned with religious pretension of people who should have known better and should have had more of God's heart for people that were on the outside. And, it just didn't, because of a different kind of loss, they were lost to themselves. 

[00:08:50] Dr. Nate Salah
Yeah, man, it's, you remind me of the story where Jesus elevates the, the Roman who had faith. When, you know, if you just to speak at my, you know, and, and my servant will be healed. The Jesus, what is He respond. He says, you know, I haven't seen faith like this in all of Israel. That's a, that's a big statement for somebody who doesn't even have the same religious belief. He's, you know, so he is calling him out. He's calling to a higher standard. Hey guys, you should know this. Like you said, I. At the same time, I, I think about, I love the prodigal son story. So many people do, I tend to call it, and I know you probably have thought about it or even spoken of it, like the prodigal sons in some ways, right? Because I like to think of the, the other son who was so dutiful, of course, as you would think too, as the Pharisee, right?

[00:09:36]
 The, the religious leaders who were there among them. And in that. He, he, I remember toward the end of the story where the son is like, look, I did all these things right. Check the boxes. And, and then of course, you know, as, as they would have, the religious leaders would've checked all those boxes. And Jesus' response is, what does the father say? Hey man, you always had my love. You didn't have to earn it. There's nothing you can do to earn, ascertain, or maintain my love. It's always yours. And even in that moment, even though you know, there's, you know, Jesus held truth and love in the same hand, and he didn't weaponize truth, he simply cre, he treated it as a way to pierce the heart.

[00:10:22] Matt Anderson
Yeah, I, I think that's really, really well said. And if you've watched the chosen series that that has been out for the last few years, I just went to the theater and watched the, a new edition of it. And, I think they really capture that side of Jesus that is always challenging on the one hand and welcoming on the other, that that's winsome and, and just kind hearted, tender hearted. But then there are moments where he steps up and you see this ferocity of righteousness that does. Come from the very heart of God that cares about right and wrong, that cares about justice, and somehow he's, he's able to capture both in such a beautiful way that most of us slip one direction or another. That's why we wanna keep going back to Jesus for his leadership, because we will tend to slip one side or the other, either the legalism side or the, the laziness side. And he just, he just, he upholds both well. 

[00:11:18] Dr. Nate Salah
Yeah. Yeah. It's, I've heard it said like this. There's. There's all kinds of resources we can go to, and in a way, you and I are resources. This, this, you know, recording this episode, this podcast is a resource, but what that means, it's a part or it comes from the original source. So. Even though we may be resources, we must always go to the source. And that's what you're talking about. Go to the source. Go to, there's nothing wrong with resources, but we're just, we're just messengers.

[00:11:54] Matt Anderson
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and it's, it's kind of the same conversation as, you know. The giver and the gift. If, if you're focused on God's gifts, you know, we could spend a lot of time praying and just asking for, you know, this, this, this, and this, and talking about our needs, and then you end up saying Amen. And feeling kind of empty. Like all I did was say what I want. It's like a Christmas list in Santa's lap. But he's also the giver, and the giver wants to spend time with us, and just by spending time with him, the likeness of God is sort of caught and it's contagious. So I, I mean, I'm one of those guys. I'm just a rabid doer. I wake up every morning with this fierce tightness that needs to be unwound by checking things off my list, and it's one of the hardest things in the world for me to do to sit. As a dude to think about climbing into my daddy's lap and sitting in his lap, you know, I get it, but I'm busy and, and so I, I, I go through seasons where I recognize I haven't, I haven't sat in dad's lap for a while. I haven't spent time with the father for a while, and it's showing by how I'm thinking and functioning and caring, you know, and I wanna be, I wanna get back to that because I, the farther I go in my own direction of accomplishment, the farther I get from probably just the heart of God that needs to notice people well. 

[00:13:09] Dr. Nate Salah
Beautifully said, and, and you've been, a, a busy doer working on a book. Yeah. Share a little bit about that. 

[00:13:16] Matt Anderson
Yeah. I, um, have been sort of writing the book in my mind until it gets, I. To a point where, okay, I better get it out of my mind before I forget it and put it on paper and, and share it with people. And the book is called Being Superhuman. And it, a lot of my own personal journey is wrapped up in this book. So it is very personal to me. And I, I just remember from a, being a very young kid, being told to be yourself, and that question always scared me because I wasn't sure what that meant. My son was in sixth grade. We moved to a nuke city to start, you know, our church and put him in a new school and he was about a foot undersized for his age, and I brought him to the age of the playground and I said, go on out there, have a great day. I'll be here when you're done. And I could not tell him I. To be yourself. 'cause I've always hated that question. How do you take a kid who isn't sure who they are, who's maybe struggling to find themselves and tell 'em, just go ahead and be the thing that you're questioning right now and totally unsure about. That's still developing and morphing as it does often throughout our adult life. But go ahead and just do that.

[00:14:24]
 Would it be easier to say, go be like that person over there. Go be, do the same thing that I did when I was your age over there I was. It's always been hard for me to tell my kids to be my themselves because it's always hard for me to hear that. I think that comes from a place of just, just sort of like developmental uncertainty that every human being goes through. When you look at the range of options for how to live your life, there are infinite options, especially in the Western culture where you don't just grow up and do your dad's profession anymore. Where you are, the sky is the limit. What do you want to do? And. I've always found that sort of intimidating, sort of like, well, how do I choose this path when my decisions today have consequences to for tomorrow? How even like personality things, what sort of attitude do I want to take on in this environment and why am I tempted to be different when I'm in that environment or with those people than I am with these people in that environment? And the subject of being yourself really has been a subject that I think a lot about as I'm relating to people in ministry and just living life. Meanwhile, I feel like we live in a, a day and age where we have constantly in our ear the voice of what I call the inner critic in the book, the voice that says, you are not acceptable. You are not worthy, you're not good enough, lattice. You do what that person over there is doing. Unless you have a that person, you get invited to those kinds of parties.

[00:15:46]
 You get vacations like that. You have a job like that. You have a a complexion like that. You have a body like that. I think if, if all of us had a stethoscope in our brain that would transcribe the internal messaging that we get every day, we would have reams of self-condemnation that we don't even know we're hearing. And the anxiety and depression and stuff that we see all around us, I think comes from that inner voice that we just hear all day long running, like self-condemning software in our system. And I. We don't even it. It's so common that we don't even notice it and most people who are really seem overconfident, I think, struggle with that voice. The worst. They hear that voice, the loudest. They want people around them to know that they're smart and they're doing good. 'cause they're trying to somehow silence that voice that says, I am not good enough unless I do manage, accomplish, or get some, some sort of makeover to make me like someone else. The question I ask as I'm writing this book is. I apologize. My dog is a weirdo and so if, if anybody walks by the front of our house, you're gonna hear a dog going crazy, like someone's breaking in. Just bear with me if he starts in. So the question really started focusing on, as I prepared to write this book, was why go through life doing an average impression of someone else when there will never be another you, when there will never be another person with even remotely the same DNA fingerprints, personality, life experience, just all around circumstance to contribute a unique footprint in human history.

[00:17:24]
 I think a lot of us waste a lot of time instead of just leaning into the risky adventure of figuring out who I am created to be and how to live outta that authentic sense of self, to simply say, well, I'm just gonna try to take the proven path of someone else's story. I. I'm gonna try to emulate someone else that that tends to speak with, with authority or command respect. And I'm gonna try to just as best I can, kind of follow along that and, and mirror as much of that as I can, because at least I see how that goes. At least it's predictable. People tend to like it, but when we do that, we're missing out and we're really catering to that inner critic that says, you're not good enough as you are. You're not acceptable as you are. You're not worthy as you are. You really need. To figure out how to be more than you are, more than human. And the, the, the title, super being super human is not like being super in the sense of more than human. It means how do you fully be the human being that you are? That means being comfortable admitting your limitations and flaws. That means being comfortable asking for help. That means being willing to talk about your limitations and dreams and hopes that are simply unique to you. That means. Allowing people to say yes to you for relationship and allowing them to say no to you without feeling this immense pressure to please everyone.

[00:18:45]
 So in the book I go, I'm going through a kind of a host of things of what does it really mean to be yourself in terms of being human? How is that unique for every individual and what does it look like to in the meat of the book is how do you turn off the voice of that inner critic and craft your own cape or figure out what that unique version of your life can look like? 'cause when you do that, then you have something powerful to share with the world. That is actually to inspire other people, not to try to clone you, but to figure out how to be that for themselves and craft their own cape or squeeze into their own unique set of tights, as I like to use the, the superhero analogies because they too were created for that unique imprint that they can make on the world. And when people learn how to do that, they can be infectious. They, they tended to liberate people around them, not to try to imitate them, but, but try to. Fully be themselves. So that's, that's at least the, the goal I have is I wanna be able to have an individual read this book. I want their reading it to be an act of war against the inner critic to turn that voice off and to, to squeeze into their own unique set of tights. And I also want it. To to be something where they prepare to liberate others in that same way. To be a liberator in the lives of others who are equally as tempted to simply live their life as an average impression of someone else. I, I think there's a lot of freedom that comes from not trying to be like somebody else, 

[00:20:05] Dr. Nate Salah
Man, that's so strong. I can't wait. I can't wait for this to come out. My goodness, man. That's exciting. That's fire.

[00:20:14] Matt Anderson
It's a lot of good stuff and I'm just trying to get, get enough order in it for someone to follow it or a, like an employer to take their organization through a staff team, through probably, I'm doing some workshops this fall with, like at an HR conference and. Them like an experience of how do you craft your cape and how do you help your committee, your team do this? And then how can you take this back to your workplace? So I hope it, it kinda, it's one of the reasons I like doing things outside the church world where, um, it's not just a church conversation, it's a conversation about life. How do you live and work out of your best version of yourself? And, it just takes some time. And the commitment to, to develop your own sense of self-understanding and the freedom that we can give people to simply. Be yourself in the non-threatening way. That means figure out how you're hardwired, figure out what you love, figure out what your gifted at, figure out how to share that. It's not, that's actually a lot easier than figure out how to be like someone that you were never meant to emulate. So it's meant to be a very liberating journey for people. 

[00:21:15] Dr. Nate Salah
Oh man, the way it sounds, it's gonna land, it's gonna land big time. And, it, and it's, it's so scriptural as, as you're unfolding the, the, the heart of the message, it reminded me of John 3:17 and, you know, we focus so much on John 3:16, right? It's like the famous verse. You see it all the games and you know, what's waving on a, you know, on a, on a giant finger at a football stadium and everywhere else. And, and sometimes we forget about John 3:17, which I think John 3:17 is. Pretty powerful of a verse. And here's what it says. For God did not send his son to condemn the world, but to save it. Yeah. And that's, you know, that's what you're talking about. You know, we, we spent so much time in self-condemnation, we forgot that, my goodness, there's no condemnation in Christ. I mean, he didn't come to say, oh, you, you should have been like this person. You should have been like this person or this person. In fact, it's just the opposite. It's just the opposite. As he, as he goes on his travels, as he goes on his journeys, as he tells his stories, as he calls people out, he says, look, look, I don't want you to be like anybody else. I want you to be who God uniquely made you to be with all the, by the way, this is a li, this is not a flawless life, and he's not saying, I want you to have a flawless life.

[00:22:31] 
He said, I want you to have a fulfilled life. I, it becomes a steal killer and destroy. I've come to have life and have it. To the fullness. Right to abundance. That's what he's saying. He didn't say, the enemy comes to steal, kill, and destroy. And I've come that you're supposed to be, you know, without error. Now he does say go say no more in certain places, but that's contextual, right? I mean, people are doing things that, that are self destructive, which may be in one sense, self incriminating from what you're talking about right now, right? This self condemnation, I would suggest, I would say that. Likely part of his ministry is like, Hey, look, you know, you're kind of being a little hard on yourself. I, you know, I love you. 

[00:23:11] Matt Anderson
That's one of the biggest revelations of my own journey is how much of what we do is actually rooted, not in self-love, but self-hate, and it took me a lot of time, struggle and, and even therapy to realize. So when I was in high school, I decided I wanna be in the NBA. Well, I quit growing and my vertical wasn't what it needed to be, and I wasn't the greatest shooter. So I didn't, I made it to college basketball. I didn't make it to the NBA, but I beat my body up trying. I, I would work out for four hours a day, two hours basketball skills, training, two hours weights and plyometric every day, year in and year out, until my career ended. And I still have the aches and pains to prove it. I was sitting in a mentor's office, and I talk about this story in the book as a turning point for me. I was in a mentor's office and he was just asking me to tell me my life story so he could mentor me and coach me. And, and, I got to the part about, wow, let me tell you about my training regimen. This is part of my development.

[00:24:07]
 I learned how to be a hard worker. And he listened to me and I was expecting him almost to say, good job. You really are a good hard worker. But as I listened to him, I just noticed his complexion sort of sank and he started to look like he. He felt sad for me. I thought maybe I just was misreading him, and as I continued, he seemed even more downcast and more downcast. Finally, I finished describing this disciplined, dedicated training regimen that I perpetuated for all those years, and his two word response was, sounds lonely, and I started to cry. I. My stomach started just heaving sobs that were trapped in there beneath this facade that I had been trying to erect, saying, I need to be someone else. I need to be like someone else, and if I don't, I am not going to be worthy and acceptable. Behind the ambitious Drive is almost always a person that fears being known as they are, and that fears being seen as an imposter with nothing to offer. In other words, some of the greatest, biggest, boldest goals we might set are done out of self eight. I don't like myself as I am. I need to be someone else. I can't be myself. I need to have this thing to point people to so that they see that and then say, okay, good enough, worthy I you're, I'm be your friend. I didn't realize that, but as I rewound my life and went back to that age, I started thinking.

[00:25:41]
 Maybe I was lonely, but I was deluding myself into thinking that it's gonna pay off down the road when I have all these relationships that result from all this hard work, and that doesn't make sense. Logically, hard work doesn't create relationship, but I think it was self-hate. That was a lucid diluting factor in my life that made me kind of believe that for a lot of years. And certainly as an adult, I, I have a tendency to, as I  think about the more boxes I check, the more likely good things are to happen. And I don't see Jesus living that way. I don't see him getting up in the morning and saying, guys, we're skipping breakfast. We're skipping prayer time. We're going right out to work in the mission fields. First thing he did was in John chapter one, was spent the day just hanging out with Peter and Andrew. Where you staying? Just come and see. Didn't say, let's get to work. We got a lot. I only have three years. Let's go. He was very patient and never in a hurry. He wasn't identified by what he could accomplish, even the work of the cross, which was why he came, um, in a sense, didn't define everything about how he lived his life. It was something that he came to do. But when he was with people, he simply was, was with people. He was in the moment with people and he was not driven by self-hate. He was driven by a love for people. He was driven by a confident assurance of who he was in the Father, and that's refreshing to be around.

[00:27:04]
 When we're spending time with God, he wants to implant that into us. And when we spend time with other people after spending time in spending time with God, hopefully some of that bleeds off into them rather than putting more burdens on them as we put on ourselves. So I think self-hate is one of the things that most people would say, of course I don't hate myself. They would never look at someone who seems really cocky and say That person hates themselves. At the root of it. I think that is our fundamental core human problem. And when Jesus said, love your neighbor as yourself, he's assuming that in Christ we do love the person he created, that we value ourselves and don't disagree with God. When he says he loves us and values us and he wants us to then. Export that same love to other people that we have within ourselves. So self-hate's a big one. It's been a big one for me. And I think if people are honest about that and dig a little deeper, there's, it's, it's often leaking beneath the surface for a lot of our drive, ambition, and our anxiety and, and anger too. If we don't, if life doesn't work out the way we think it should, depression and anger tend to take in, and that critic just starts condemning. Religious people probably hear that voice the worst. If you are religious, I talk about this right away in the book, the inner critic is going to have a field day because he is gonna demand you put out a public facade of piety, and then behind closed doors is gonna condemn you as a person who never lives up.

[00:28:29]
 To the expectations that God has on you and is a different person private than in public. So if you're, if you're spiritual, if you're religious, especially if you're Christian, I think the risk of being to living in a constant state of self-condemnation is actually greater because we have this value set given by God. We sometimes just misconstrue it as something we're supposed to get perfectly right every day, and then privately we start loathing our inability to live up to it. Well, Jesus took care of that, that that's why he. Yet, we're kind of still stuck in the old covenant living every day as if Jesus hasn't accomplished our redemption for us. And at Romans eight question is like, who is gonna condemn us? I mean, who is going to condemn us? Is it Jesus Christ who is crucified? He's the only one that can, and look what he did. So the condemnation is really off the table and there's a liberating aspect of the gospel. I think that we will live our lives trying to express and understand and hopefully more fully live into.

[00:29:28] Dr. Nate Salah
Man, that's so strong. Boy. There's like, boy, that's about three sermons right there. You know, you said something, you said a lot of things. You said, one thing that you said that really resonated with me was this facade piece. And I remember years and years ago, I had a tremendous blessing to portray, our savior in an Easter play. And this was many, many, a younger, much younger version of of, of Nate Salah. I remember and rehearsing and just, you know, just giving, trying to, wanted to give my best. And I remember being in a grocery store and it was a grocery store, really close to church. And my son was little and I don't know what he did, but he did something and I was giving him a hard time. And the grocery stores, I was, you know, I was a little angry and I looked around, I was like, what if somebody at church sees you? And they're like, isn't that the guy playing Jesus? Look at him. He's so angry. He shouldn't be playing. Jesus. To your point, you know, it's like we start. Trying to be something we're not now granted, at the same time, I think we need to assess, of course, whether or not what we're doing in public reflects our own true self in private, and asking God to release us from whatever it is that may be keeping us from moving into a place of sanctification with him and so on.

[00:30:44] 
This is another conversation, however. It's so true. You're like, oh, I'm, now I'm called to a higher standard and now I have to look differently. It's like, you know, how about if you just allow God to change you from the inside out and get, don't get so hung up on how everybody is supposed to be seeing you. Like you were talking about at the start of our conversation. 

[00:31:10] Matt Anderson
 That's it. That, and that's the difference between roots and fruit, right? With this world, people tend to think transactionally, what's the shortest distance I need to go to get what I want? And when it comes to looking virtuous, looking religious, how do I need to act so that people think a certain way about me? Well, if we start there, we've already lost 'cause that's not how Jesus thinks or how he died. For us to think and to take the long game, the non-transactional, non-people pleasing approach. To a witness of, of lifestyle would be, how do I feed the roots? Jesus told stories about trees that weren't bearing food, and he's like, put a bunch of manure at the bottom of that thing. So maybe we need more poop, we need more manure in our lives. We need more time tending to our roots. And I think you're right when you do that, when you're focused on just being nourished by the gospel, the fruit more naturally is born from that. Now, certainly if you read the New Testament. That process is always upset and there's, there's glitches, there's blockages.

[00:32:13]
 I can't find very many if any places in the New Testament that just talk about the church is a place to belong and God doesn't care about how you live. Every time it talks about belonging, it talks about bearing fruit remain in me. So you bear fruit as God's holy ones. Here's how I want you to live. And he's always talking about how he wants that fruit to be born. And the mistake we read when we read that is, okay, so what am I supposed to do again? Okay, so that's what I'm supposed to look like and that's how what people are supposed to see in me. We don't hear as holy and dearly loved, and I need to spend more time making sure that I. Feel God's holiness and love and compassion for me so that, that I can bear that fruit. We often skip the roots part of those verses and go right to the fruit, and that is like cutting a tree off. I mean, we are good at cutting trees off because we just wanna know the steps and then eventually you're feeling burned out in your faith. I mean, I talk to people all the time, visit our church six months later or six weeks later, whatever it is.

[00:33:10]
 It's just not doing it for me. You know, these, the music is good, but the, the sermons are good, but I just kind of feel like I need to pop around again. And I'm like, well, you're not gonna find a church that can nurture your roots one hour on Sundays or however many, you know, days a month you go to church, you, your roots need continual tending. You can't uproot a tree and then put it in the ground one hour a week and expect that it's gonna bear fruit. And so I think that really requires us to think carefully about. What am I feeding myself and how do I, what's my rhythm of consuming the gospel and accepting the gospel before I worry too much about how do I apply the gospel in my life and how do I express the gospel in my life? And, I found that it's very easy to focus on the fruit 'cause I just don't have a lot of time to worry about the other stuff. But eventually you just, you're starving when you live that way. 

[00:33:59] Dr. Nate Salah
It's so true, and I love the, the, the, the tree analogy because if we go back to the idea of sources and resources, then God is that source of, of sustenance and nutrients at the root of the, of the tree. And I think what we do sometimes is we'll say, well, you know what? I'm not gonna waste my time with that. I just want this fruit to look a certain way. And then it's like, it's almost like fake fruit. It's like that, what do you call it? That, fruit. That's, you know what I'm talking about, that you buy, that you dress up and it's made out of wax. Yeah. When I was a kid, I took a bite out of that from time to time. I was like, oh, this is disgusting. 

[00:34:36] Matt Anderson
Looks good. It looks great. It's shiny. 

[00:34:38] Dr. Nate Salah
Yeah, exactly. And that's ironic that, that. Of course humanity fell into chaos because of the fruit that looked really good and shiny. Come on. And they ended up saying, what's the shortest route to becoming more God-like, and how in what I can do manager create on my own rather than just walking in relationship with God in the garter and living according to his vision. And so, yeah, the, the fruit conversation, we can go all the way back to Genesis and, and. Trying to take the shortcut of just getting one step closer to where they want to go, but doing it the wrong way. And, yeah, that, that's the root of sin. That's how humanity fell apart, and it spiraled into chaos in the very beginning. And that what they were invited to was just so beautiful. God invited them to get up every day, just walk the garden with him and live life with him, and take care of creation with him, live with him, walk with him. But it wasn't good enough because we started to be suspicious that we could do more on our own. Hmm. The suspicion that we wake up out of bed and say, well, I think if I take manners into my own hands, I'll be better off. That isn't the first time someone's ever felt that way, that that was the human impulse in the garden. I don't know why God made them. I. Perfect and good with that same urge. I think he planned to do something through it, but it's a mystery of why in the Garden of Eden that shows up in the first place, but we see it alive and well as the result or, or the cause of all the, the painful results that we see around us in the world today of people just trying to manage life on their own and take the shortest path they can to a desired outcome. That often doesn't involve taking God by the hand and saying Where you wanna take me? 

[00:36:25] Dr. Nate Salah
No matter where it goes, and that's where Jesus, you know, his unity, with the Father is so important in this conversation as we really think through the, the eminence of the person and how he did not go anywhere without the father. You know, think about that. Yeah. It's like there was always, was this ever present? And even in the Miracles when he, you know, when Lazarus, you know, of course. And I love the earlier, and I didn't wanna, I wanted to mention this ge I love how you brought up that Jesus was like never late to a meeting. Like he didn't, I. He didn't have to hurry to get here or there. In fact, he started ministry when he was 30. Like by those days he might as well have been 50. And so why, because it was a preparation time. We don't, we don't know what happened from age 12 to age 30 necessarily, but we know that there was a preparation that he was willing to wait on the father as his fruit and the human flesh, right.

[00:37:23]
 Began to, he didn't take the shortcut. He didn't take the shortcut just to please people. This is the other piece, right? Because sometimes we'll wanna take that shortcut because we're interested in pleasing people. And Jesus had no interest in that. In fact, all of the, as we talked about earlier, all of the people who were pleasable, you know, the important people, air quotes right? Were the ones he was like, you know, yeah, I, I really don't care, how you feel about me because at the end of the day, it's not about how. You feel because you want me to conform to your likeness, I want you to conform to the likeness of the father because that's whose image you were made in. 

[00:38:05] Matt Anderson
And I tell you what, what you just said, I think is the life that I want to live. I want to live that life. And if I'm honest, and I'm not trying and I'm trying to not be a people pleasing imposter that just because there's gonna be people that are listening to this podcast and I wanna sound really spiritual, like I miss that most of the time. I like to call myself when I preach on Sundays. I announce guys, I'm a part-time atheist. You probably wanna join a Christian Church, but this church is pastored by a part-time atheist, a good chunk of the time. I forget that I'm not alone. I operate as if it is my job to save myself. I push into endeavors. By myself and then I start feeling that tension, like, where's that coming from? Oh yeah, there is a God, I have a savior. He is here. He does care. He has a plan. I gotta dial back and start over with him again. I am sorry I did it again and I've never felt back. God going, well, Matt, you already had your chance. I died to give you one more chance. Every time. The message I, I remember is the cross means you get 10 trillion chances, seven times 70 every day if you need it. You get to realize your wayward tendencies anytime you realize them as a gift of the spirit, and then you get to turn around and say, dad, I did it again. I'm so sorry. And he says, I know I expected it. I saw today happen before it happened. Come on back, take my hand. Let's get back on track. I think I need to give myself that permission to screw up often because I can become an imposter who thinks he's doing really well or who knows he doesn't, but wants to look like he's, he's doing really well, and I think that's one of the fundamental aspects of being super human.

[00:39:52] 
Admit. You struggle with an inner critic who will not stop shrieking and screaming and condemning until Jesus comes back and Jesus is giving us the volume button and trying to show us how to turn that voice down and turn his voice up. And that's part of the walk of faith. I'm looking every day to turn down the wrong voice and turn up the right voice. But I wake up in the morning, I turn the wrong voice on, has just almost a human reflex. The goal of life, I think in many ways is to make war on that old Adam, that inner critic. To take him out to, to not quit until he's dead. But he's very much alive and very much alive and well, even though Jesus died for us, and we must anticipate it in this life, we are not in heaven yet. Heaven has come to earth. The kingdom is invading, but there is still a battle. I am still infected with sin, death, and the power of the devil are still at work. I have to have realistic expectations for what life is going to look like. And I think men in particular in this day and age are struggling with overly generous expectations of how life is supposed to look.

[00:40:55] 
If you do everything right and then someone dies, you get the medical diagnosis, your relationship falls apart, your finances get out of order, and you assume that something must be wrong with you or God. In this life. Jesus said You're gonna have tribulations I've overcome, but in this life you're going to have them. That's a promise. Now it's a question of how do you walk through this life with me and the people I put around you in, in a very, very imperfect world that will not live up to your expectations, so keep them pretty low.

[00:41:25] Dr. Nate Salah
Amazing. Well said, my brother. I'm so thankful for you. I'm thankful for your, your heart to serve your. The mind God's given you your transparency and vulnerability and courage because what you're saying, many of us are thinking, and it's liberating in a way because we can rest on the fact that we know that, Jesus still comes and says, I get it. In fact, I already knew it. I told my disciples even after I rose, they still haven't figured it out. And I still have patience with them. And they were with me in person physically for three long years. You're good. 

[00:42:03] Matt Anderson
Most of us are very unkind to ourselves and how we think. And if we were to vocalize the things out loud that we think towards ourselves to someone else, we would really hurt them. And as I listen to my kids sometimes say those things out loud about themselves, like you are not being kind to yourself. Would you ever say that to somebody else? No, I don't think so, unless I really hated their guts. Why are you saying it to yourself? Do you think that's God's voice to you? No. Well, whose voice is it then? That's not the voice of God. And so, if, if anything else that, you know, people could take away from the book or from, you know, our conversation today is, the devil loses his power when we expose him, when we, when his secrets aren't secrets anymore. The tactics are known, he loses his power. An example of this would be like the, you know, if you're a codependent person who you're, you do things that aren't healthy because you think it's needed for the relationship. I buy booze from my addicted spouse because I need them to be drug to be okay. And that's just the way that I feel life has to work. But if you become aware of that tendency and you operate out of a sense of awareness. That you might make adjustments to how you live with someone that don't become codependent because you're not just involuntarily.

[00:43:25] 
Cooperating with an unhealthy decision pattern, but you're voluntarily deciding how can I be the best spouse to you today? And I'm fully aware of what I'm doing and what the options are and the issues are when we expose what we're doing and take a look at the motivations. Um, sometimes we just need to think more deeply about what we're doing and the situations we're in. And when we, when we do that, I think we oftentimes expose a lot of things that when they remain hidden beco are remain very, very unhealthy. The devil loves it, and I do think there's a devil. I think he loves it when we're really not aware that we're participating with his back. Do less of this and more of this because I believe God wants me to do more of this and I believe this is not part of his plan. We live with more intention. We live with, with more of an awareness of outcomes. We think five steps past where we are more prayerfully, more thoughtfully. I think that honors God, he, Jesus talked about, don't just follow me. I want you to count the cost. I want you to think ahead. I want you to do some basic math.

[00:44:32] 
Where does this decision lead versus where that decision lead? And if you just put your head down and just start plugging away, trying to do the best you can every day. Sometimes you find yourself digging in the wrong direction. So teaching people to be more. More thoughtful about little baby decisions and patterns in your life can oftentimes lead to big changes and shifts. Just because I'm now listening to that voice in my head, wait a minute, that isn't God's voice. Why would I do something based upon that thing I'm telling myself? And bigger than that, we realize. That isn't my voice at all. I am not my thoughts. One of my favorite authors, it's not necessarily a Christian author, spiritual God. Eckert Toll wrote a book called The Power of Now, and in his book he, he had this powerful revelation that says, I am not my thoughts just 'cause I have an evil thought. That's not me, that an evil person thinking that just because I have a selfish thought, that doesn't make me selfish. I have thoughts that come and go and I can actually step back from those thoughts and say. That's an interesting thought. As a pastor, I can sit in the hospital like to someone in a bed. I ain't even a thought that says, kick that person. Where'd that thought come from? How weird. Luckily, that's not me. I'm not my thoughts. Thoughts come and go. But to take every thought captive as Paul said, and step back and just think, where's that coming from?

[00:45:55] 
That doesn't sound like that. Doesn't sound like a kind voice, a loving voice. I don't know that I'm gonna go that route just 'cause it came into my head. Doesn't need the means to come outta my mouth or, it can be expressed in my life. And so really, I'm, I, I hope to just encourage people just to step back and think through their own thoughts. Listen to the message that you tell yourself and then ask, is that helpful? Is that a direction I wanna go or do I have permission and we do to kind of let that float away like a cloud and wait for the next good thought to come. That sounds a lot more like God, a lot more like good and a lot more like the direction I wanna wanna go. So intentionality I think is a really, really important brother.

[00:46:40] Dr. Nate Salah
I am so glad you didn't make it into the NBA. Thanks for being here and, can't wait to have you back on and eventually. Hopefully I get you in my town and, maybe you can show me some of those, those jump shots that. 

[00:46:59] Matt Anderson
Last time I played I ripped my Achilles tendon fully through, so I won't be moving as fast as I used to, but I'm glad to try.

[00:47:06] Dr. Nate Salah
Sounds good, brother. Thanks again. We appreciate you and your heart to serve. Well, my friend, thank you for joining me on this episode of A Call to Leadership. If you've been listening, you've probably heard me talk about our accounting and advisory business, and this show was actually born out of that business. Those relationships, I found that entrepreneurs and professionals were missing aspects of their leadership that fed into their bottom line and helped their businesses be successful. So I'm so thankful that I've had all those years in that area to. Feed into this, and the truth is that so many people still need accounting and advisory help and they don't know where to go. If you're in that place where you feel, oh my goodness, my tax person or my accountant, I can't find them, or maybe the service wasn't up to my expectations, do not despair. I'll leave how you can find us in the show notes and one of my team members can do some discovery and help you along your journey. You're not alone, my friend. You always have help. I'm Dr. Nate Salah. Can't wait to see you on the next show of A Call to Leadership.

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