Ducks on the Pond
A podcast for rural women... by rural women. Hosted by Kirsten Diprose and Jackie Elliott, they seek expert advice and the stories of other rural women on issues such as succession planning, motherhood, starting a business...running for politics and much more!
Ducks on the Pond
Creating Cultural and Systemic Change - Rural Women Lead Collab Series, pt. 3
How do you create systemic change, especially when it involves changing the culture and attitudes of not just a workplace, but an entire society?
There is no specific playbook for systemic change. But there are a number of tools you can try. In this final episode of our three part series with Rural Women Lead, we explore this adaptive process by looking at space of women’s health and wellbeing - including reproductive health, family violence and menopause - which are all areas that have been overlooked, misunderstood and mischaracterised throughout history.
Hear from:
- Jodie Hill - CEO at Women’s Health and Wellbeing Barwon Southwest, from Crossley, VIC.
In her role, Jodie is tackling multiple systemic problems. To do this, she says you need to have conversations with people with very different attitudes and ideas to you. This inevitably comes with discomfort - but if you want to create change, you need to have the courage to be able to sit with that discomfort and do it anyway. Jodie tells the story of having to speak to a room full of tradies about gender equity, when it was clear they hadn’t really chosen to be in the room. She adjusted her talk to better fit the audience..but summoned the courage to speak!
This series has been made in collaboration with Rural Women Lead, lead by Leadership Great South Coast. Other members includes: O2 Advisory, are-able, GenHealth, Wannon Water and Rural Podcasting Co.
This is a Rural Podcasting Co. production.
You don't get attitudinal change or cultural change by talking to people who are already like-minded. You have to have the conversations with people who hold different views, perhaps to yourself, and there's discomfort in that.
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to Ducks on the Pond brought to you by the Rural Podcasting Co. How do you create systemic change? It's such a big question that I found myself wondering how I was even going to ask such a thing. Actually, I think I do at the start, but then I take a different tact Because there is no playbook for systemic change, and we spoke about this in our last episode in this collaboration series with Rural Women Lead that our brains respond well to stories.
Speaker 2:It makes the vague and abstract become clear in our minds and hearts. In this episode you'll meet Jodie Hill. She's the CEO at Women's Health and Wellbeing Barwon Southwest. It's a group tackling multiple systemic or, as I like to call them, wicked problems. Now, I didn't come up with that term A couple of design theorists by the name of Rittel and Weber did to describe complex social problems which don't have clear solutions.
Speaker 2:Jodie's focus is mainly on issues relating to gender equality, from ending violence against women, creating more supportive workplaces to getting better health and reproductive outcomes for women. These are all important things, but notice how your brain can just gloss over a little when I list them. Things, but notice how your brain can just gloss over a little when I list them. So that's why we focus on the stories, and you'll hear plenty of stories that demonstrate how change is happening in those spaces.
Speaker 2:My favorite one would have to be the time that Jodie had to unexpectedly give a talk about gender equity to a room full of male tradies and they weren't there by choice. Yes, she really did that, and that's an example of the courage that Jodie talks about that you need when working on challenging attitudes and moving the needle on those big, wicked problems. Now, if you could see Jodie, you would notice how she is breaking down barriers, one smile at a time. I throw some tricky questions at her, from social media to menopause leave, to whether women should get paid to do the housework and the smile doesn't flinch in a good way. Jodie lives in Crossley, which is a tiny town outside of Warrnambool, victoria. She grew up in the region but moved away to chase the sunshine in Queensland for 18 years and then moved back home around four years ago and soon after landed her dream job.
Speaker 1:It's the role of a lifetime for me. I absolutely love it. I think I'm lucky to have the best job in the world although yours also looks pretty good, kirsten, I must say. But I have always had a bit of a passion for making positive change, culture change and for doing something that really feels right, and in my sort of varied work roles I have always managed to bring that in. But when I had the opportunity to join Women's Health and Wellbeing Bar in Southwest, it was an opportunity to really bring that values-based and service-first positioning to the front of my role rather than as a part of my role.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of big issues that you're chipping away at. How do you create systemic change? And maybe we'll start with one issue? So let's look at sexual and reproductive health. Where are we at now, and what kind of change would you like to see?
Speaker 1:The way that we have started to really drive for change in that space is, first of all, understanding the issues. So we undertook last year a research project to gather some data around, particularly things like what are the barriers to accessing sexual and reproductive health services for women who are living rurally and regionally? Things like distance, cost of travel, access to childcare all contribute to whether women can access services or not and really can have an impact on how quickly and whether they access the healthcare that they need. We have really dramatic impacts. So we undertook that, which was that piece of work, which was a research piece gathered the hard data. But hard data is only part of the story. What you need to really drive change is the colour and life that comes from real people's stories and real people's experiences, and we're in the process of analysing that at the moment.
Speaker 2:Do you have any examples of obviously don't name anyone, but like any examples of stories that sort of really paint the picture of some of the difficulties, Because obviously timeliness is a huge factor when we're talking about women's health and particularly if we're talking about abortion or other forms of reproductive health or access to IVF.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and we have had stories, both as part of the survey but also as part of the many conversations that have come up around this as well, of people who have because they have to travel maybe two and a half to three hours one direction to access services really struggled to find a way to get the time off, work, get the kids looked after, all of those things to access the services and it does mean sometimes delays.
Speaker 1:We have heard stories about really simple processes like scans and blood tests and things where the time lapse to actually get an appointment sets that whole timeline back and in situations where there is timeliness required and abortion is one of those things, but really anything around fertility can really hinge on time. If it's taking you six or eight weeks to get an appointment for a scan, it can really have a huge impact on what your options and choices are beyond that. So we have heard a lot of those stories. We've also heard a lot of stories about people with perimenopause menopause going through that phase of life and having really a lack of understanding about where they can get support or if they can get support. So definitely an area where we intend to focus a little bit of advocacy and drive for change.
Speaker 2:So you were talking about how you've collected the data and the stories. Then what do you do with it to create that change? Sure.
Speaker 1:We've got a really beautiful community of practice of people who contribute to these services practitioners, medical professionals, allied health people who are acting as a regional community of practice around sexual and reproductive health. We plan for this to be a tool that they can use to collectively take steps, and some of the steps are probably going to be fairly simple changes. Some of them will be more dramatic changes. We also intend to take the information that we get to policymakers and decision makers, give them a really clear picture of what the world is looking like for women.
Speaker 2:What about attitudinal change? It's like menopause didn't exist until about 10, 15 years ago, which, of course, is not true, but it was just the way that we, as society, dealt with it, which is incredibly unfair to women.
Speaker 1:It really is unfair and it is that attitud nor change is probably the most challenging piece, because if the attitude changes, all of the other stuff is kind of slips through a little bit more easily. But where you've got that worst case scenario out and out misogyny and best case scenario maybe some unconscious bias embedded in there, that means that people are not necessarily systems, are not necessarily thinking of the impacts on women in particular. In my case and with the work that I do, I think driving that culture change is really important. To do that there's a little bit of courage required around that, because you don't get attitudinal change or cultural change by talking to people who are already like-minded. You have to have the conversations with people who hold different views perhaps to yourself, and there's challenge in that, there's discomfort in that, and I think it's so important that we build the confidence of women and that as women we have confidence to have those conversations, to be resilient and to deal with maybe the backlash or the challenge that we get as we have those conversations. Because talking about change with people who already agree doesn't increase the change, doesn't drive the change, but talking about change with people who are perhaps having a different view or looking a different direction. That is where you actually drive change. So you need to have that courage and build that courage, sometimes fake it till you make it within the courage, but you need to have the courage to have those conversations in those challenging settings and with those sort of challenging folk.
Speaker 1:I think probably one of the things that comes to mind, and it is in terms of the equity piece, the gender equity piece, and I did attend an organisation to do a bit of a presentation around gender equity and it was linked to International Women's Day, and I found myself in front of a room with around 70 men all in their high-vis gear and could tell very rapidly that this was not the audience that would normally turn up for something that I present to, and, as an individual and as a woman standing in that position, I felt very vulnerable.
Speaker 1:There definitely was a level of fear is probably the word. However, I decided to approach it, rather than a presentation, like a conversation with these guys and I asked them a lot of questions and invited them to contribute and actually was surprised in a really positive way that, although they didn't necessarily understand the gender equity perspective that I was delivering, they were interested enough to ask them questions and they were interested enough to participate in the conversation, and I walked away from it knowing that I had not embedded gender equity in the course of one presentation. However, I certainly had engaged people to think and to have that conversation, and I think that's really what it's about. It is challenging sometimes, and sometimes it's individual who's challenging and sometimes it's the setting that's challenging. But if you can get the conversation happening, if you can tell a few stories that make sense, if you can attach to people's values a little bit, I think you can start to make some shift, and I think that is what happened in that particular situation. So I walked away feeling positive.
Speaker 2:Thanks for sharing and, I think, meeting people where they're at. Do you think were the people in the room? Was it like they had to be there as part of their work?
Speaker 1:I think that they probably had to be there. They were probably compelled to be there Terrible isn't it? Which is challenging. But I do think afterwards a number of them stayed, stayed to have some conversations, stayed to offer some comments or some perspective, and that's where the gold is, and I think, out of the 70 people that I spoke to that day, if four or five of them think a little bit differently or had a conversation with their partner when they got home or had a conversation with their kids, those are the things where it's making difference and it's making change, and I think that is meeting people where they're at. I think you're absolutely right on that point and we try to do that with some of the things that we write. Some of the blogs and articles and things are just framed in such a way that trying to engage people enough to think about it, without it being too intense and difficult to engage with.
Speaker 2:Another really tricky one is obviously family violence against women. Another really tricky one is obviously family violence against women and we've spoken about this a bit on this podcast about how do you get that systemic change. You know where we're at is definitely not okay. Too many women are still dying. How do we approach an issue like that? What is the answer? Jodie, do you have an?
Speaker 1:answer. I would love to have the answer. Look, I think that this is a very complex problem and I think that the answer is also very complex. It is one of those things that I find really distressing that there seems to be a bit of a pendulum swing around prevention is the answer, no response is the answer, and sometimes a few things in between as well.
Speaker 1:But personally, I think that we need to have an absolutely robust and rigorous response position. So we need well-funded response services that can assist people to escape from violence, to deal with violence, to recover from violence. I think that's really important. But I think that we also need to have a really strong and rigorous and well-funded system around prevention, because if we don't do the prevention piece, we will always need the response piece, and so I think that we need to have that whole continuum working. And then there's a whole another debate around justice and the way that the legal system works, and I think that there's a lot of work to be done there as well. I'm not a legal expert, but I definitely can see that there is a lot of work there. For me, I think that the real answer is that continuum. We need the cultural change that makes violence less likely to happen in the beginning, and we need the really considered and well-funded and well-organised response so that people can remove themselves from a violent situation and recover and heal as well as they can after that.
Speaker 2:I think the answer's big yeah it definitely is, and there's been some small changes, I know, particularly in Victoria, with coercive control and recognising that as a form of abuse and what can go on with it, such as the financial hardships having fines against you or having all sorts of stuff that's really a result of a bad relationship. You mentioned the legal system, what needs to change there? Because I think we've made a couple of moves in the right direction, but there's obviously still issues that need to be fixed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, look, I think there's definitely some things around people who have orders against them and their ability to access people who they have already assaulted or victimised in some way. I think the transparency of those processes and knowing who you're getting involved with and understanding that I think that there's some room to move around, that we can be a little bit better and safer. I think there's certainly a lot of things that can change in that space. I'll say again, I'm not a legal expert but as a layman looking in, I think that we it's dangerous to, it's controversial perhaps to say but everybody's rights seem to be balanced up and I'm not sure that perpetrators' rights should be balanced up at the expense of victims' rights, and that's. I think we need to have a little bit of a look at that and make protection and recovery sort of first priority in those situations.
Speaker 1:There was an idea floated a little while ago about if there's a call to a family violence situation or a domestic violence situation, that one of the practical actions would be to hold the perpetrator for a period of time to enable the victim to be able to leave that situation, and there may be some value in that.
Speaker 1:That might be something that we need to have a look at, and I hesitate to advocate for anything that we don't have strong evidence for and we don't have evidence around this. It was an idea that was floated recently and it's been debated, but at a common sense level it kind of lands, and I think we are at a point where we have got an epidemic of violence in this country and perhaps we need to start trying some things and if it means a little bit of inconvenience for a perpetrator, in order to allow people women, children to remove themselves from the situation or to be supported to remove themselves from the situation, I think it is one of those things that perhaps we need to look at and I really think we should have everything on the table, anything we can do to make a difference. We have to be trying all of the tools available to us to make a difference here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think a lot of our legal system was set up a long time ago and we always are tweaking around the edges and changing laws here and there, but I don't think it was set up with the family unit in mind, like it was meant to protect everything else, but perhaps not how a family might need it.
Speaker 1:Correct. I had the great privilege to see Brittany Higgins speak recently and she made the very valid point that in our legal system, a victim of sexual assault actually is not a person who is represented in the case, it's the perpetrator against the Crown. The victim is not even the person who is a party to. They're a witness to their own crime, if you like, or a witness to yeah. And so, in terms of that kind of arrangement and that kind of outdated, dare I say, legal structure, very hard to understand how victim survivors are having an experience that brings them any kind of value or any kind of justice. Really.
Speaker 1:So it's almost like you're a property of the state, like it's dehumanising Correct, it is dehumanising, and that was the point that was made. And then, if you take into account as well the fact that going through these processes can take years, which means that getting to a point of any kind of recovery or anything close to recovery is really delayed and paused for a long time. As you wait, as things are resurfaced, as victims are re-traumatized, as families are re-traumatized, as they're losing time off work and all of the other things that are associated with the long time frames around this, there's something that's a bit broken.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's why so many women don't pursue it, because they just think it's just not worth it. And then to do it in the public eye as well, that's really tough.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then to be scrutinized around all of the reasons why you might've caused your own assault, which is the story, unfortunately, that we hear so many times as well. Yeah, I think that there's a lot of room for improvement and there's a lot of voices that we need to connect. I think one of the big things that's come up recently and that is probably useful is the engagement of men and boys in discussing violence, gender-based violence and violence against women. I think women have been doing a lot of work in the space for a really long time and, of course, we are always better as a collective and better together, and seeing some men step into the space and thinking about it differently and having some influence, I think is a really positive step, and I'd like to see that continue as well. I think there's some hope the more men that we can get advocating and working towards a better world.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree with that. I'll always remember and this was probably 15 years ago now, when I was a reporter in Melbourne, there'd been a horrible case of rape and police were speaking about it. So all the media standing there with microphones to the police officer and a male reporter, an older male. He asked what was she wearing? Was she wearing a short skirt? And there was this moment and you know, some of us were like, oh God, I can't believe he's just asked that. And the police officer he just said, look, that's not relevant, we're here to find the perpetrator.
Speaker 2:And I thought that's great. But it's moments like that, I think, where a man realises that no, that's not the right way to approach something, that it's a significant win in that sort of shifting the landscape of how we think I think it really is and I think it's interesting.
Speaker 1:There's been a lot of data over the last little while around that sort of attitudinal piece and particularly around men, and I think some really good research around it and interesting, but showing that a lot of men would like to think differently, behave differently, display masculinity a little bit differently, but they don't necessarily understand that other men are also feeling the same way and so, through fear of being different or not being man enough or whatever else it may be, they are actually holding back on some of the change that they would like to see in the world, some of the difference that they would like to bring, just because of that sort of almost it's almost a cultural or peer pressure. It sounds a little bit juvenile, but that is sort of where it's at that. There's that thing of not wanting to be viewed as less than, and I think it'd be so wonderful to just see all of the good, brave men step up and have a voice and call it out when they see the bad behaviour.
Speaker 2:In your own patch in South West Victoria, barwon, south West region, what sort of changes have you seen across the women's health and wellbeing space that you can really say, yeah, that's great, like we can see progress.
Speaker 1:I think recently one of the really great things that we've seen is again in this space of prevention of violence, and prevention of gender-based violence in particular, and we have seen a regional partnership come together.
Speaker 1:Where we're now, we've got a huge number of organisations where we're pushing up around 40 organisations that are actively involved and big organisations who are committed and engaging around embedding equity and prevention practice into their organisation.
Speaker 1:Now it can seem a little abstract to people who are not necessarily involved in this, but if all of those organisations, all of those workplaces are embedding good practice, who are making that systemic change that ensures that women are not experiencing bias and violence in their workplaces, that starts to have a ripple effect out into the world and out into the community.
Speaker 1:And we really have organisations that represent thousands of employees across our community now and as we see that change and that sort of systemic, values-based, I suppose, setting of standards within those organisations, it does make a difference and we're seeing such enthusiasm and such drive. And I suppose for me, one of the things that I've really loved seeing is in this era of anti-woke sentiment and we are seeing the anti-woke sentiment everywhere. Every time you turn the TV on we have seen a little bit of the opposite across our region, with organisations saying no, we want to be loud and proud about making a difference and about committing to changing this, and we don't care if you call us woke, we are going to do the right thing and we are going to really make change.
Speaker 2:Some of those practices that you mentioned that organisations can go okay, yep, this will help make our workplaces safer and better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one of the things that is really important doing gender impact assessments when you undertake any projects or policies means that you actually have a look to see whether there is any sort of systemic bias in there that will impact people and we refer to it as gender impact assessment, but actually considers all sorts of people from an intersectional standpoint, something that is reviewed with a gender impact assessment at the beginning.
Speaker 1:Actually, it is a better outcome for all people because it does take that view of. Is there something about the way we're about to embed this policy or embed this program that will have a negative impact on people who are women, people who are gender diverse, people who are living with a disability? Is there something there that's going to make it harder for them to engage, harder for them to exist within our workplace, harder for them to participate in the program? And if there is, how do we fix it at the beginning? And so those sort of things are the things that can make a real difference, embedding policies as well, that sort of cater to appropriate leave for people. Perhaps there's a lot of talk at the moment around menopause leave or leave for people who are suffering with things like endometriosis and those kind of things, and I think having a look and considering those kind of policies with a gendered view can make a real difference, and those are the things that are starting to happen and embedding a different experience and embedding respect into workplaces.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's interesting. I personally love policy. I'm a bit of a policy nerd, but I always really like to think about it's policy, but it's culture. So you can have a policy, but you want to be in a workplace where you can actually say to your boss female or male, look, I'm going through menopause and I'm having a rough time. I need some leave to address this. Because if you can't do that because I still think about that and could I say that to my boss and not feel embarrassed, which is silly you shouldn't feel embarrassed. You shouldn't feel embarrassed. Or to talk about periods or something I don't know. If I could, I honestly don't know.
Speaker 1:And that's the culture change, isn't it? Because it is one of those things that for generations and generations it was a taboo and we were made to feel embarrassed and we were made to feel like we shouldn't talk about it and, as a result, if you need to have time because you're suffering in any way with any of these things, it can impact in so many ways. It can impact your participation in projects, it can impact career progression, it can impact the way that you're viewed within the organisation. Unless it's dealt with in a way that is fair and equitable and understanding. There needs to be a level of empathy that these things are normal. It impacts menopause, impacts half the population. It is normal. It's normal and so why are we embarrassed and ashamed? But generations of being accustomed to that and being conditioned to that has made it a tricky conversation to have.
Speaker 2:What did they used to call it? Oh, she's going through the change, or something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the change of life.
Speaker 2:I never knew what that was as a kid, as I watched my grandmother just like sweating and people would say they're going through the change and I'm thinking what is that? I have no idea.
Speaker 1:No, and because, of course, nobody spoke about it. But I think but I think it's amazing that it is getting spoken about now we are facilitating some training for HR advisors and for HR professionals coming up shortly and just giving them some guidance about how to support people living with menopause or going through perimenopause in their workplaces. Now that's an amazing thing to be able to do and 10 or 15 years ago would have been absolutely unheard of. Maybe even three or four years ago would have been absolutely unheard of. To see that there is change happening and to see that people are happy and wanting to engage and wanting to support their female workforce in that way. There's evidence of change right there.
Speaker 2:Now I just want to be a little controversial because I hope people would never think this way, but particularly, I think, if you're in a smaller business. So larger organisations can often make sure they have these policies and are already caught up with this in terms of their structure, but smaller businesses, where margins are really tight, sure they have these policies and are already caught up with this in terms of their structure, but smaller businesses, where margins are really tight, they might not have the same formalized structures. How can they implement these things? I would always hate for something to have the reverse effect, where someone thinks do I want to employ a woman? She might get pregnant and then I'd have to support her for that and then 20 years down the track, she might go through menopause. You know I hate to flip it like that, but I don't know what's your thoughts on that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, look, it's a real thing, isn't it?
Speaker 1:It's a real, it absolutely is where you've got businesses that are supporting a family and running on a margin and not much more than that and just making ends meet, it is.
Speaker 1:It's really challenging and I think that is where we need to advocate and continue to advocate for support from the government around making sure that businesses are supported to do the right thing and supported to look after their workforce.
Speaker 1:And we've seen, if you think over the last probably couple of generations, we've seen some amazing reform in terms of parental leave and making sure that people get paid parental leave and some change around superannuation in terms of parental leave, and those kind of things are happening, and we really need to probably see that government support come in across all aspects of supporting workforce. And, again, while our focus is gender, at Women's Health and Wellbeing, I think that there are things that there needs to be an intersectional lens across that as well People who are living with disabilities and people who are marginalised in other ways. There should be the supports in place to make sure that everybody can participate and contribute equally and that equity isn't about giving everybody the same thing. It's about giving everybody the things that they need so that they can get in there and participate and that's really where fairness comes from and equity and justice.
Speaker 2:Do you think we could get governments to pay women for the work that they do at the home? I know that's an outrageous one, but it's like we still have a system that is largely structured on this idea that there is someone at the home looking after the kids in the household and doing all of that, and often not always, but often it's the woman who is largely doing the home and the kids and being at work. So how do we fix that? It'd be great if just men did more housework. That would be great. I hope that's what you ask the tradies. Hey guys, look, if you just did more housework, it would just be a lot easier.
Speaker 1:We'll make the difference.
Speaker 2:We'll make a difference I love to think with outrageous ideas first and of course know that it's not going to be passed, but just to shift the starting point and see what we can come up with.
Speaker 1:What are your thoughts around that. I think this again goes back to that attitudinal change that we touched on earlier that as a society, we're pretty bad at valuing care, and that's what we're talking about. Doing that, or bearing the responsibility for care, whether it's children, whether it's aging parents, whether it's people who have disabilities within the families that care space is something that we are really not great at valuing. I think we are getting slightly better at it and I think we've seen some change recently, because even people who work in aged care or work in childcare some of our lowest paid workers as well so, valuing care, whether it's in the home or whether it's in the workplace, we're just really bad at it. But we have seen some change and we have seen some recognition that you know people who are early educators, people who are working in aged care they do deserve to be paid more Now. To see that flow over into the home setting would be amazing as well.
Speaker 1:I would love it. I don't know. Can we start a change petition now? Can we make that happen? It would be really great. I would love to see it, but I think we need to do, we need to work on that piece that says as a family unit. We're a team and all players on the team have to contribute and might contribute in different ways, but should contribute equally, and I'd like to think that there are a number of families out there that are operating that way, but that generational conditioning for our gendered roles and our sort of stereotypical gendered roles does mean that still, women are bearing the load in that space.
Speaker 2:It's really great that we've seen progress over the years on those fronts that you mentioned. In the world of social media, which is not the real world but does influence things, we have seen a huge kind of you know the anti-woke sentiment, the misogynistic guys that seem to be quite popular there's a few of them that really spout some awful stuff and also this sort of trad wife phenomenon so it stands for traditional wife. If you're lucky enough to have not come across it, I don't know. Do we need to be wary of some of that messaging?
Speaker 1:Oh, absolutely. I think some of that messaging is some of the most dangerous stuff that's happening in the world at the moment and we're in a really precarious place. That social media and AI and all of the technology has advanced so fast and continues to advance so fast and we haven't really caught up with it, and we already touched earlier on the slowness of our legal system. The laws and protections around these things are way behind where the technology is at Recognising the global impact that one loud voice can have in terms of following on social media and influence on social media. We just are not prepared for it. We're not prepared for it and trying to grapple with it now that the genie's out of the bottle, so to speak. So it is a really it's a really tricky space, but I think this is where we need that peace to happen, where, as individuals, as communities, as sporting clubs, as organisations, we stand up and be loud around the standards that we want to see and the behaviours that we want to see, because we really need young people in particular, and I think young men are one of these vulnerable groups who are being targeted by some of this negative messaging and I think we need to give them an alternative, and the alternative the good messaging, the positive messaging, the healthy masculinity messaging, the respectful messaging it needs to be as loud and as engaging as the other. And so I think the way that we maybe achieve that and something that I think about a little bit is just it needs to be everywhere.
Speaker 1:We need to saturate the world with some of the positive messaging. That means we all need to call out the bad behavior when we see it. We all need to say this is the expectation I have for behavior in my home, in my workplace. Say this is the expectation I have for behavior in my home, in my workplace, in my sporting club, in my yoga studio, whatever it is, wherever you are. Those are the things that we can all do. We can all set those standards, and then it normalizes the better behaviors, it normalizes the respectful behaviors, it normalizes those more positive things that we want to see in the world. The fear of being the odd one out or being the loud voice. We have to let go of that. We have to own the courage, we have to be resilient and we have to step forward with it to counter those really loud voices with the negative messages.
Speaker 2:I agree. I think in most scenarios that's really effective. I think in social media it's really hard because of the algorithms and how controversial these people are and, yeah, it's hard to win that fight.
Speaker 1:It is really difficult and it's one of those things, isn't it because we have it now? And it's one of those things, isn't it? Because we have it now? It's here and as much as people do like to say it's an evil thing and it's a horrible thing and it's a bad thing and it is all of those things. Probably it has elements of all of that.
Speaker 1:The truth is that it's here and so now we do have to find a way to deal with it, and I think it's heartening, in a way, that Australia is taking some lead in looking at regulating social media, particularly in terms of young people. How effective those regulations might be is yet to be seen, but at least there is some kind of action around that and I think we probably have to try and counter it in lots of ways, and I think it's tough. It's tough because it's here. It is here, and so I guess trying to make messaging that's outside of social media as compelling is maybe where it's at. Trying to get that, trying to do that real life demonstration of respect when you're playing footy on the weekend or when you're in your workplace or when you're in your school those are probably some of the spaces where we can try and make a difference. But yeah, it's a very. It's the wicked problem of our era, I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that and climate change.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know we could have dealt with just one, but it would have been better.
Speaker 2:Oh look, Jodie, I could talk to you for ages about all this stuff. Thank you so much for joining us on Ducks in the Pond, I suppose. Finally, what are some words of wisdom to anyone listening who is working on one of those wicked systemic problems? Just a good takeaway on how to keep going when the road is long and hard women in rural areas.
Speaker 1:I think that the takeaway is women are powerful and amazing and can do amazing things, and they can particularly do amazing things as a collective, when they're together, and so doing what you can to build confidence, to build resilience and to build a network is an amazing start to making change. So I would encourage all of the women listening, and all of the men listening, to encourage their women as well, to don't underestimate your power to do something really amazing for your community and for your family, for the settings that you're a part of. Women are powerful catalysts for change and you have to own that.
Speaker 2:And that's it for another episode of Ducks on the Pond. Thank you to Jodie Hill, ceo of Women's Health and Wellbeing Barwon Southwest, for joining us and being so candid in her thoughts. Thank you to Rural Women Lead, a group which has brought together many great organisations and women, and since we are at our third and final episode in this series, I would like to list them now. Rural Women Lead is led by Leadership Great South Coast. How many times can I say lead in a sentence? And thank you to kate roach for all of her work in bringing it all together.
Speaker 2:Thanks to karen foster at o2 advisory, to trudy ma at r able, jess fishburne at gen health, jody hill from women's health and well-being bar one southwest, and also to one and water, and I'm proud to say I'm also a part of the group with my business, rural Podcasting Co. Look what can be done when a group of women get together right. Thank you also to Elders for their support in providing a community grant to be able to run in-person workshops and to all of the women who attended and the workplaces that supported them. And, of course, a big thanks to you for listening. I hope you got a lot out of it. I know I certainly did. If you've enjoyed this series, then please share it with a friend. My name is kirsten dip. Rose and ducks on the pond is a rural podcasting co production along with Town Criers and Two Smart Blondes. I'll catch you again soon.
