Ducks on the Pond
A podcast for rural women... by rural women. Hosted by Kirsten Diprose and Jackie Elliott, they seek expert advice and the stories of other rural women on issues such as succession planning, motherhood, starting a business...running for politics and much more!
Ducks on the Pond
Women as Change Makers in Ag - Fiona Marshall and Cressida Cains, FCA Collab Series, pt1
Behind every good Ag business, is a good woman. Well, a smart and caring one.
There are many women doing innovative things on farm and in the broader agriculture industry. From cracking a value added business, to finding more sustainable ways of producing food. In this episode, you’ll meet two women who think strategically about their own farming businesses, as well as broader issues around soil science, national food security (such as a national food plan) and how to bring more diversity into industry board rooms.
Hear from:
*Fiona Marshall -Chair, Grain Growers National Policy Group Member. Chair, Riverine Plains Farming Systems Group. Grains producer and advocate for agriculture. Based in Mulwala, NSW.
*Cressida Cains - President of Australian Women in Agriculture and founder of Pecora Dairy, a raw-milk sheep cheese dairy. Based in Robertson, NSW.
This is episode one of a 3-part collaboration series with Farmers for Climate Action. Come to their national summit - and receive 20% off! Listen to the episode to find out how!
This is a Rural Podcasting Co. production
I'm particularly interested in seeing more women at the senior level of leadership in agriculture so I think women are better at thinking about others, thinking about the bigger picture, thinking outside their little patch hello and welcome to ducks on the pond, brought to you by the Rural Podcasting Co.
Speaker 3:Kirsten Dipperow is here with you and I'm excited to bring you a new mini-series. It's a three-part series in collaboration with Farmers for Climate Action, and they have a special offer for Ducks on the Pond listeners 20% off their tickets to their summit in Canberra, which is September 1 and 2. Check out their website for details and then pop in the code DUCKS20. I'll be there too, so please come and say hello Now. My next two guests aren't afraid of trying new things in agriculture in their own businesses and also pushing for change in the broader sector.
Speaker 3:Cressida Caines began her own artisan sheep's milk cheese business called Pecora Dairy, based in Robertson in New South Wales, and has come into agriculture with a really unique lens, not initially having a family connection. Cress is the Acting President of Australian Women in Ag, a national body representing women, and she's part of the Women on Ag Boards Group, which is actually open for new members. If you're interested in checking it out, go to the Australian Women in Ag website and you'll meet Fiona Marshall. So Fiona is a grains producer based near Albury and she married into farming many years ago, which she says has allowed her to have the most wonderful career change. She's also part of quite a few boards. She's a Grain Growers National Policy Group member and chair of Riverine Plains, a farming systems group.
Speaker 3:But the three of us really know each other from spending a couple of weeks together in the bush no contact with the outside world, not knowing what we're doing every day. It's part of the Australian Rural Leadership Foundation and it was fun Pretty full on as well, but I can definitely say that these two women are most certainly leaders. Oh, and just a side note, christina's audio at the start is a little bit patchy, but it comes good really quickly, so please bear with us. Just the wonder of rural internet. Hey, now I'm not going to pretend like I don't know you both, because I have had the pleasure and terror of spending two weeks in the jungle not the jungle, the bush with you both, which was an amazing experience. So I feel like I know you both fairly well, I agree 100%.
Speaker 3:So we've seen each other at our absolute worst, but I also know you both at your absolute best too, and it's pretty bloody good. But first we'll start with you, Fiona. Tell me about where you live and what you do.
Speaker 2:I'm a dryland grain farmer from southern New South Wales. We're 20 kilometres north of the beautiful Murray River. We have some sheep which we use to complement our farming system. So it's a dry land, continuous cropping farming system with a few sheep to help.
Speaker 3:And how did you get involved in agriculture? I was really lucky.
Speaker 2:I married a farmer. I met my husband, fell in love and then committed and then found out what farming was all about, but I would never change a thing. I can't believe how lucky I've been in my life and what agriculture has done for me. It's given me a whole new career. When I met Craig, I was a teacher, a biology teacher, so I have a strong science background. I worked for the Department of Ag for a little while, but to be living science is a fantastic thing for me.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's so true. It's something that you could never have predicted that you would one day be living amongst the ag science.
Speaker 2:Never. We were so far removed from farming as a family that our farm was the first farm my dad ever visited after we were married. So yeah, it just wasn't part of our world. So where did you grow up? I grew up. My dad's an engineer, so I grew up all over the place. Really, we never lived anywhere more than seven years. We started in Melbourne, moved to Sydney, lived in Townsville for a while, we were in Perth for a while and when I was 11, we moved to the Middle East. So I spent my secondary schooling mostly in the Middle East and then at boarding school, traveling backwards and forwards.
Speaker 3:What was life like in the Middle East and whereabouts? It was a wonderful way to grow up.
Speaker 2:I grew up in Bahrain and it taught me a lot about humanity, about people, about how we might look different, but really we're all the same. Breaks my heart to see what's happening in the world at the moment, what's happening in the Middle East. They're people who have very similar values to us. It's just yeah. So it taught me a lot and it taught me to accept things as they come and to say yes to opportunity do you think you would have said yes to farming if you hadn't had that upbringing?
Speaker 2:absolutely, it's living science and that's what I love. So for me it was an awakening. If I knew what it was, I think, I think if someone had given me the chance to find out what it was all about, I would have said yes, yeah, because it is it's. It's about understanding how the world works right from the ground up, actually from below the ground up.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I love that. Chris, tell me about you. How did you come to be in rural Australia?
Speaker 1:So I founded Borgra Dairy in the New South Wales Southern Highlands in 2011 with my husband. So we're a sheep dairy and artisan cheese making business. I think my husband and I have always had a real passion for actually really feeding into what Fee was saying earlier the science, the science of agriculture and the science of food. So for us, it was always going to be a full circle operation. We were never going to be dairy farmers and we were never going to be cheesemakers. For us, it was really very much about the whole.
Speaker 3:yeah, the full circle operation, yeah, and so your history or your background was in wine, though.
Speaker 1:Yes, I did study business degree, so not specifically in wine, but then ended up working in the wine industry, which was really fascinating. But definitely that was feeding into my interest about the science of fermentation, I suppose, which does definitely move into cheesemaking. So there's a lot of similarities and particularly when you talk about things like raw milk cheese and terroir and those sorts of things, and raw milk cheese is something that's really, you know, very integral to the way we run our business at Pokoro Dairy. So all of that idea about ecology and the science and farming is very much feeding into where I ended up in here.
Speaker 3:And we all know wine and cheese pair really well together. You can't really go wrong, can you? So how was that introduction to farming for you? I think it's really interesting because you and your husband neither of you had an ag background, whereas I think for most people involved in ag, if they're not brought up with it, they're probably married into it. So there's doors already opened and kind of things already established.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's an interesting point.
Speaker 1:Yes, we don't come from a family farm, so we bought our farm during the GFC in Robertson, in the Southern Highlands, which is a couple of hours south of Sydney, in New South Wales.
Speaker 1:We sit right up on top of the mountains so we have some pretty pretty amazing weather. We have very high rainfall. But from a farming point of view, we really created our own systems and it was through research, particularly overseas, I suppose, but there are not very many sheep dairies in Australia to learn from. So it was, it was overseas that we looked, and also really studying agriculture here in Australia and really being able to adapt those systems to what would work in an Australian context. And in some ways, I think that we were fortunate because what we did doesn't follow a traditional farming background in Australia, so we could really we just basically created what suited us, what suited our land and what suited our animals, so we didn't have any, I suppose, any legacy that we had to continue to work by. We were literally able to be as innovative as we wanted and really make those systems work for us, which we did.
Speaker 2:Can I ask a question, chris? What came first?
Speaker 1:land, innovative and as we wanted, and really make those systems work for us, which we did. Can I ask a question, chris? What came first? The land or the dairy? Definitely the idea.
Speaker 1:We had the idea of milking sheep and making cheese and then we found the farm. So we were quite targeted in where we wanted to be and that we wanted to be close to big market like Sydney or Canberra mostly Sydney. Australia is such a big country and we do have some challenges with moving product around the country and we were keen to be in an area that was close to a big market and also the technology, the ecosystem. We milk East Frisian sheep which are originally from the Netherlands, so they're very used to wet feet. We get over two metres of rain here in Robertson every year, so they're used to a cold, wet climate and we have incredible soil and grass that we grow here in the Southern Highlands. So at one point it was a very rich, daring district. We were fortunate that we were able to end up buying here, but it was very much a strategic decision.
Speaker 3:How have you found, chris, the interaction with, I suppose, some of the established ag industry? I think our agriculture system is probably better established for commodities and that's how it's traditionally been set up. Is it hard to work in that environment when you've got this sort of really niche, value-added business?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that there are definitely challenges in that area and I would agree with you. I think we are probably set up for export-focused commodity businesses. We've had to sort through a lot of red tape and those things are really challenging for small producers, things like when we became the first cheesemakers in Australia licensed to produce a raw milk cheese. Some of those rules and regulations are the same for small producers as they are for really substantial producers, so it definitely can be a challenge. I do think that we're moving into more of a recognition of value adding for farmers and more of an acknowledgement that the systems need to be potentially different.
Speaker 1:Just looking at COVID, you know we sort of had all these empty supermarket shelves and we started sort of thinking about well, what do we produce here? You know, where is this value adding and what part can that play in our farming system? And, of course, the export for australia is incredibly successful and so much part of the drive for agriculture, as it should be. But we also have space, I think, for value adding and it's a really interesting area where I think there is increasing acknowledgement that more can be done and for particularly for smaller producers, for them to be in control and taking back, coming a price maker rather than a price taker, is a very viable and profitable way to run family farms, and that obviously then feeds into the thriving nature of rural and regional communities.
Speaker 3:I'm going to be slightly controversial and you know, as someone who is on a commodities-based farm, the rhetoric I hear amongst the people around me is that you can't make money from value add. This is coming from the perspective from someone who's already a commodity kind of based farmer, where it's all about yield volume production. So there's probably a mindset shift that needs to happen. What's your thoughts on that, fiona, because I know you're in the commodities game as well?
Speaker 2:I actually participated in a project a few years ago where we did make products from our wheat. We had our wheat tested to see what properties it had. It was suited to a parbate bread product which we thought we could take to Asia, but it ended up focusing on tuck shop market in Australia first. It was a hard road and it got to a point where we needed to invest a lot of money to go to our next step. So we didn't actually go there. It was during the drought. It was a good distraction. What I found from doing that project was that it takes a lot of focus to value add. So for us we had to decide did we want our focus to be on value adding or did we want to stick with what we knew really well and where we knew we could be profitable and make more money? So we decided for us it was better to invest our time and money and energy into doing what we did better, into improving our system, into finding out where our leaks were in our profitability and improving our profitability.
Speaker 3:And so that was during the millennium drought, that's right, which was quite some time ago now. Do you think it would have been better if there were more supports in place? Was it hard to navigate because the system wasn't set up or just because of your time and resources?
Speaker 2:Both so the system very much. We had to rely on large producers for different stages of our production. It's not a product that you can make in a laboratory on your farm like you can with a cheese. There wasn't room in the market so, for example, in the commercial baking scene we had to fit in with other people's programs so they'd have to find a space for us. Generally it was space that was at night. The labour was more expensive. It was a product that required refrigeration. So finding a cool store that would look after our product and then transport where they kept that product at its constant temperature, there were so many complications in that value-add chain. That's what taught me that I'm better to stick where I am because there were too many things outside my control. If I could find a product that I could make on farm with my commodity, it'd be a lot easier.
Speaker 3:And transport's a huge one. Now I know that's a challenge, that we've got some great producers in my region that are smaller producers sending value-add products. They need to get it to Melbourne. It's got to be in a cool room and because they don't have enough for a truck, trying to get on one and just the cost of it is prohibitive.
Speaker 2:Yeah, very prohibitive and that kind of looks at value at evaluating our sheep business as well butcher boxes or something like that. But we're too far from a large market. As you said, chris, you really need to have a large market.
Speaker 1:If you're going to produce a niche product, I think that's exactly right. If I can just jump in and say it's really horses for courses, it is a completely different type of farming and I think it's also super smart to say I'm going to stick to my niche. I'm going to stick to what I know I do really well. I mean, like I said, we were really strategic in the way we set up our system because we knew what we wanted to do. And I think always when you go into an enterprise, it's a very good idea to be clear about your goals and clear about your processes and the way you want to get there. But you know, I think there is more of a recognition of the social and economic value of local food systems and I think we are getting better at setting up that and assisting with the framework and assisting with the support networks and the chain that needs to be in place to assist.
Speaker 1:But it's a different way of thinking. It's not I'm going to get this all around the country and be in every supermarket. It's where is my local market and where is the most sensible market for me surrounding where I can make the best use of my product and it can get there, of course, in the very best condition. But being able to charge a premium for that is obviously one of the benefits. But of course with that you do need all of the sort of support services that you're prepared to put into yourself, all the marketing and being very much the face of the business and those sorts of things, which is really an exciting place to be if it's where you want to be.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly, I think it's really interesting just the diversity of farming systems that we have in this one podcast, even of farming systems that we have in this one podcast even Do you think that diversity in terms of business and systems is understood? You know beyond agriculture, or even within agriculture, about how you can do ag.
Speaker 2:No, it's not understood and I've been focusing lately a little bit on food security. It's come up through a number of people in networks that I've been talking to and, because of the trouble with tariffs and Trump and so forth, at the moment I think it's become a different kind of focus and we're actually quite vulnerable, being down here in the bottom of the world with a number of trade routes that we have to bring product through to get it to our country. I think it'd be really advantageous for our government to start supporting food security, making sure that we are able to continue to support our country and the countries within our region with food to keep us stable and secure. Now, that's not going to happen with the niche market that Cress has, but on that broad scale like you and I farm that's something that would be really important to focus on. We need those niche products so we have a lovely life and great taste, but we need those spread products to sustain us going forward and the good news is we can grow a lot in Australia.
Speaker 2:We can, and also thinking of security. It's not just us we need to be supporting. It's those Asian countries that surround us, because if they're hungry, they'll be restless. It made me uncomfortable to think how vulnerable we were. I had never considered that before, and the learning that I've been doing lately has shown me that what we do here on our farm is actually important for our whole entire region, not just Australia, not just us.
Speaker 3:So, with all the turmoil in the world, I've almost kind of been thanking my lucky stars that here we are in our little pocket of the world where it seems far away even. You know it's awful and it's not something that we can simply ignore, but yeah, it's yeah, but still we have our number.
Speaker 2:We need to be thinking ahead and be strategic as a country and as a region about how we're going to look after ourselves if if the rest of the world gets cut off.
Speaker 1:I completely agree, and I think we need a national strategy with a food plan to ensure that Australia is secure in its food future, because I completely agree, and I think that there is more consumer demand for local food. And then, of course, looking into sort of how that food is produced, and we've got way better. We've certainly got compliance and traceability coming to all farms and all segments. Of course, looking into sort of how that food is produced, and we've got way better, we certainly got compliance and traceability coming to all farms and all segments of agriculture, which is a really there are some challenges but I think overall it's a really positive thing. But we definitely need to make sure that the systems are set up to, I agree, to keep the country safe and fully fair.
Speaker 3:What do you think about women's role in this? Maybe I'm biased I probably am because of how I view the world but I often see it's women driving a lot of the change. I think in agriculture it's often because we have to, because we're not that sort of legacy farmer position Sometimes we are, but even if we are, that's probably been hard fought in itself that we kind of have to be the ones that change the systems. And I know both of you sit on various boards and are in positions where you get to think about things in a more strategic way, in a broader sense and, you know, have a level of influence. Yes, what are your?
Speaker 1:thoughts on that. Yeah, I think women are really great at mobilising, particularly from a sort of grassroots community level, and then moving up and making those things really happen. There's so many instances where women have, you know, really changed things in agriculture and, let's face it, women have always been there leading and pushing for change in agriculture. I think only now is that recognition of leadership sort of starting to be realised. I'm particularly interested in the sort of senior leadership and seeing women, seeing more women at the senior level of leadership in agriculture and being at the table where those decisions are really being made. I think there's lots of women in middle management, but I'd love to see more women in that senior management and really shaping the policies that are the future of agriculture. It's happening and there's some amazing leadership programs and some fantastic ways that are pushing women forward, but we need to continue that kind of network and pipeline, I suppose, of women who are ready and capable to step up and really assist to shape the conversation for Australia.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Chris, I think women are better at thinking about others, thinking about the bigger picture, thinking outside their little patch. So I think bringing that diversity to that higher level of leadership is what's going to take us forward.
Speaker 1:Most definitely Diversity of voices, I think, is a really important issue in Australia, not just gender equality. I think it's something that Australian agriculture needs to really focus on. I think we have seen a lot of change, but there's still some significant mileage to go with it.
Speaker 3:You're both involved in Australian women in ag and Chris, are you the president now Is it official? Women in Ag and Chris, are you the president now Is it official? August, good, tell me about Australian Women in Ag and its role If you can sum up its amazing history in a few sentences. That's a really hard task, but it's been, of course, for I don't know, is it 40, 50?
Speaker 1:years. It's 30 years but it has packed an absolute punch. Australian Women in Ag is a national body so we advocate for women throughout and across Australia, for the challenges and opportunity for women, but really advocating at that government level to really drive change. And it does have a very long and distinguished history. The founding members pushed for change, you know, back in the early 90s where Australian women weren't even able to officially call themselves farmers. You know, way back then we had to say that we were different things but not farmers. So of course we have moved a long way since then, but the challenges some are still the same, like childcare and access to services for rural and regional women. But some of them are really exciting and different and there is a huge amount of opportunity.
Speaker 2:And Australian Women in Ag definitely continues to be that voice for women in RRR areas and not only are they a voice, but they are a network which gives women the opportunity to network with other women in a collegiate environment, which is invaluable. Farming can be very lonely, especially if you are in a region where women don't tend to be involved in their family farming business. And for me, joining Australian Women in Ag meeting that network of women that do what I do, and that, for me, joining Australian Women in Ag meeting that network of women that do what I do, understand what I do and can help me improve, to do what I do better, to be an ear when I'm not happy with the way things are going and I'm finding life difficult, all of those things are vitally important and that's a service that Australian Women in Ag provide on the side, apart from advocating on our behalf.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that Fee. I think you're right on the idea of collective action joining an organisation to not only get that support but also to be able to utilise, you know, all these great brains that we've got from women in agriculture and really be able to push for collective action as a result of joining that organization. There's a lot of talk out there. Everybody's got a lot of ideas, but it does take people and women who are willing to really actually do the work and move the action to get things done.
Speaker 3:We'll start to wrap it up, but I want to ask you a kind of a final thought type question. You know, when you look ahead to the future of agriculture, what do you want to see Agriculture in general? And then you know for your own kind of business and farming life.
Speaker 2:I'd like to see the industry focused on constant improvement, doing what we do better and innovation. There's just so much we don't know scientifically. One of the things I think we're starting to focus on more is looking at soil as a living environment, not just a substrate in which to grow a monoculture. So I think there are opportunities there. What I would like to see, what I would like to leave when I leave the industry, is a more vibrant, more forward-focused, more sustainability-conscious farming environment.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. I'd love to see deeper respect for the amazing produce we have in this country. If I look out my window and I can see our beautiful, cool climate, rainforest here in Robertson and this morning I saw a lyrebird walk out and you know to be farming on this incredible land that we have in Australia and producing this amazing food In Europe. They have such a deep respect for their produce and they have it protected and they do tell really amazing stories about where their food comes from and the traditions of it. And that's something that's really important and close to my heart is making food and being able to contribute to the health of the nation and really having a deep respect, Because I think food really underpins our society and really contributes to the fabric of the nation, and really having a deep respect Because, you know, I think food really underpins our society and really contributes to the fabric of our communities. So I would love to see more of that deep respect for agriculture that farmers in this country so richly deserve. I love that.
Speaker 3:And that's it for this episode of Ducks on the Pond. Thank you to Cressida Keynes and Fiona Marshall. And just a reminder, farmers for Climate Action is offering Ducks on the Pond listeners 20% off tickets to their summit in Canberra. It's on soon, september 1 and 2. And then there's a Farmers Day on September 3, which I'm really looking forward to. Check out their website for details. So many great people coming there. I'll be the mc, so I hope to see you there, and when buying tickets, just pop in the code ducks 20. That's capital letters for ducks and the number 20. And, of course, thank you listening.
Speaker 3:This is a three-part collaboration series with Farmers for Climate Action, so the next episode is coming really soon, and if you would like to collaborate with us at Ducks on the Pond, then please let me know. I'll also be looking for a new season sponsor shortly too. This is a rural podcasting co-production. I produce quite a few podcasts now. Some of them are my own and others I step in and help them. Check out the website for more details ruralpodcastingcocom, and I'll catch you again soon.
