CMBA Past President Kerin Kaminski defines success as more than climbing the ladder. As a founder of Giffen and Kaminski, and as a national leader in business litigation, Kerin believes in creating opportunities for her clients, with a consistent emphasis on community service. This week's talk with CMBA CEO Becky Ruppert McMahon tells a powerful story of how two Cleveland Bars came together as one.
CMBA Past President Kerin Kaminski defines success as more than climbing the ladder. As a founder of Giffen and Kaminski, and as a national leader in business litigation, Kerin believes in creating opportunities for her clients, with a consistent emphasis on community service. This week's talk with CMBA CEO Becky Ruppert McMahon tells a powerful story of how two Cleveland Bars came together as one.
Becky Ruppert McMahon (00:04):
Hi, I'm Becky Rupert McMahon, chief Executive at the Cleveland Metropolitan Bar Association. Karen Kaminsky has a powerful legacy as both a pioneer and a leader in northeast Ohio's legal community. As a founder of the law firm, Giffin and Kaminsky, she helped raise the bar for women in the highest levels of law practice. And she did it while always elevating the importance of inclusion, diversity, equity, and public service in her business.
Kerin Kaminski (00:31):
I'm Karen Kaminski, and I was the 2007 2008 president of the Cleveland Bar Association, which then merged and became the me Cleveland Metropolitan Bar Association. And I was the first co-president of that organization. It was a true, what I would call merger, somebody might call it a unification, but it was a truly, where we took the best of both organizations and put them together. It, this wasn't a takeover. In fact, I actually think that the problem for the 15 other times this was tried is that it always was a gobbling by one organization of another as opposed to truly two, two equals coming together and figuring out what was best about each organization and bringing the best of both together. And I think that is what we ended up doing.
Becky Ruppert McMahon (01:20):
So Karen, I am dying to know, how did you get started at the Bar Association to begin with?
Kerin Kaminski (01:27):
George Durkin came into my office one day and he was always very disappointed in me because I became a litigator instead of a business lawyer. 'cause He thought I should be a business lawyer because litigators were second class. He came into my office one day, he said, okay, if you're gonna be a litigator, at least you can make something of yourself at the Bar Association. You need to get involved. I just heard that there is a some kind of a girls group over there. I think you've gotta get in on the bottom floor with this, this women's group. They're gonna try to help women out. Then I want you to go over there and do that. And so that started my involvement in the Bar Association, which was through the Women in Law section. What did
Becky Ruppert McMahon (02:07):
You do, do you recall when you first got started with the, the women in law?
Kerin Kaminski (02:11):
The women in Law section were, were looking at what to do with childcare. That was their primary focus was childcare. A group of women that I met in there, in the women in law section, we're gonna take on NY apra, they have Oh, because there'd never been a woman that was a member of that. So we sort of formed a subgroup that wasn't associated with the Bar Association because it was too controversial for the bar to take on. At the time, a lot of people didn't want the first real women's group at the bar to be controversial. They wanted us to kind of stay in our place. And so we formed this other group and raised money and took out an ad in the in Cranes and kind of took an assault on Icy Price in, in order to get the first woman admitted as a member. But at some point, the focus changed after, after that project was over, the focus really changed to leadership and how do we prepare women for different leadership roles and to expand where their leadership was, because we found that women generally led women, women organizations or the, like the women's section. And we wanted to really get women. So they were leading the litigation section in different sections. We really partnered with the Y W C A at the time and ran a whole series on leadership. So
Becky Ruppert McMahon (03:34):
This underlying theme that you, I think your entire career reflects is, is really being invested in evening the playing field between women and men who go into law. And so, and I'm curious, so you ultimately fast forward, you become the third female president of our combined organizations the first of the new Cleveland Metropolitan Bar Association in 2008. But I'm curious, so between when your first introduction at the Women in law section and becoming president, talk a little more about sort of what, what did that pathway look like?
Kerin Kaminski (04:10):
Well, for me, I was sort of drug along by other, other women. There's Patty Morgan Stern and Clarin and some, some, some other women really took a hold of me and said, Hey, do this, do that. And so I tried to join lots of different portions of the bar. You know, I joined the litigation section. I became involved in the judicial rating. And I did that for many years. I was one of the first and only women, there's one other woman that would do this, that talked about there was a group of people to help lawyers who were struggling with addiction. I was kind of fundamental in forming that group. And, and actually we would go into different lawyers who were having trouble in their practices and help take them over to give them a time to go to treatment and what have you. So I did lots of different things that I kind of spread myself throughout the, the bar and did lots of different things.
Becky Ruppert McMahon (05:03):
One of the early times that I had a chance to interact with you was we planned a program called gorilla. Gorilla Gorilla Tactics, or Gorilla Gorilla Litigation Tactics, something like that. Do you remember that program?
Kerin Kaminski (05:15):
I do remember that program. It was kind of designed to talk about how do you deal with litigators that are over the top and, and engage in tactics that really aren't professional. And so how do you deal with those people when you're sitting across the table of 'em, and particularly as a woman, how do you deal with them? We found at the time, and maybe it's still true for young lawyers, I don't know, because as an older lawyer, this doesn't happen to me as much anymore. But as a younger lawyer, and particularly for women, you would see that a lot of people were forceful and rude just in order to put put people off their game. So we had a whole program about how do you deal with that? We had some of the female judges come in. We had lots of women litigators talk at that, and we had some men come in to talk about what it is, how best to deal with some of those tactics.
Becky Ruppert McMahon (06:04):
So, Karen, talk to us a little bit about that. Coming onto the board of what was the board of Trustees for the Cleveland Bar?
Kerin Kaminski (06:10):
My, my recollection, although colored by years is, is that the bar was a mess. When I came onto the board of trustees, tax receipts and everything were in a shoebox. It was completely disorganized, and we'd had a major theft of bar funds. And so what I recall mostly about those years is the shock of learning that somebody that we had all trusted or had been a very trusted person, had engaged in that thievery and that the, the bar was really in a mess and was financially in a mess. Most of, most of what we talked about during those years was how we were gonna get the bar out of financial trouble. But the other thing is, is it's the first time that I recall seeing a woman who was truly a leader <laugh> and petty, though this may sound, she wore pants to a meeting. And it changed my life because I just said, okay, if Barbara Smith can wear pants, then I can wear pants. Because up until that time, I don't think I'd had always worn suits that were not pants suits to work. And so I can remember the first time after I saw that I wore pants to work and was basically asked to go home and change <laugh>.
Becky Ruppert McMahon (07:21):
So Barbara Smith was one of the presidents when you were on the board, anything about Barbara that inspired you? Yeah,
Kerin Kaminski (07:28):
Yeah, yeah. Bar Barbara was a great leader. She was she was always on top of things. She was always polite, she was always dignified, she was always professional. She was huge into what lawyers ought to do in order to help the community, not just help other lawyers, but help the community. And I think it's the first time I started to change my view of the bar as not just being about what we do as lawyers and what we can do for one another as lawyers, but rather really what we could do for the community. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.
Becky Ruppert McMahon (08:01):
So there was clearly, you must have had positive experiences about being in the boardroom because at some point you made the decision to throw your hat in the ring to become president of the Cleveland Bar.
Kerin Kaminski (08:12):
Well, I really didn't. That that's, I I was really pursued to do that. That isn't something that I would've naturally done. I loved the bar, I loved my bar experience and everything. But what happened is, is that David Ick had a meeting over at Jones Day with a bunch of women that leaders that he knew, and he had us all in a room, and he said, you know, really, we need a, we need to have women as in the leadership ranks at the bar. And that's something we haven't seen. And the reason is, is because I don't think that anybody has let you guys in on the secret about how it is that you become up the leadership rank in the bar. And so he told us what the secret, what the secret sauce was, which is really that you have to advocate for yourself and for one another.
Kerin Kaminski (08:59):
And he suggested that we should get together and decide who it is, because he would sure like to see a woman be president of the bar, that it was time and that that should happen. So I was really very busy sending out emails. I had lots of ideas about who it should be and how we could help support 'em. The next thing I knew is that Patty Morgan Stern, Clarin and Pat Heman, who I had known through the Women in Law section and gotten to know and were mentors of mine, came in and said, yeah, that I had lots of good ideas, and that they'd had a meeting with a bunch of other people and they decided who it is they thought should be the president of the bar. And it was me. And I immediately told them, no, I had just started a new business. And I really, I just, I didn't see myself in that role at all. So they went to my business partner and then the, then they came back in with me and said, no, it's gotta be you so <laugh>. So I, I reluctantly came to the role, but once I did, I was really committed to it and and what have you. But that's, I didn't decide to throw my name in until my arm was twisted. The year
Becky Ruppert McMahon (10:07):
That you became president was, the membership year was the year that the merger ultimately happened in March of 2008. So were there discussions about the merger or unification of the county bar and the Cleveland Bar as you were coming into that leadership role?
Kerin Kaminski (10:22):
Yeah, there's no, no question that Hu McKay really started all of that. That was a big push for him. And actually before that, Kelly Tompkins had, had, had sort of, had some discussions about that. But Hugh really picked that up. And I remember, you know, even at his inaugural address, he said that that's something that he wanted to accomplish. So really, Hugh's entire year we worked on that, it's had starts and stops and starts and stops. But when I took it over, it was completely stopped installed. We had a couple of issues that really just nobody wanted to get past. And the truth of the matter is, is probably everybody now thinks everybody was for this unification, but they weren't. There was lots of very loud voices that were against us doing this. And quite frankly, just wanted to wait and see if the other organization would just go out of business.
Kerin Kaminski (11:20):
So it had really stalled over a few issues. One of 'em was who would be the first leader of the bar? One of 'em being who would be the c e o or the director. And then there were, were lots of issues around what we would do at the foundation because of the Cuyahoga County Bar had a very active foundation that had lots of programs that were very, very unique and very special to them that they wanted to continue. And then we had significant issues around judge for yourself. We had just significant issues about how they did it and how we would do it. So, so there were still some big hurdles that people really didn't think they could, could get over, and it was stalled and there was a, a large sentiment that we should let it stall. So if
Becky Ruppert McMahon (12:14):
The door was closed, correct, the conversations had ended. You become president in June of 20 2007, July, 2007. So tell me, how did, when did discussion about merger unification Start again? If we,
Kerin Kaminski (12:28):
I, I thought if we weren't one organization, both organizations would, would, would really struggle. Not not just because of the competition, but because, but the world was moving. A lot of our local firms were engaged more in national pursuits and international pursuits and not as home base, not as Cleveland base as they once were. And so I thought that both organizations were really gonna suffer if, if we didn't come together. And I thought that there was a, a lot more excitement around having one organization. And I thought that we'd made a lot of progress under Hue. I mean, we'd solved a lot of issues. We had some major ones that hadn't been solved, but we'd solved a lot of and had a lot of good ideas. So I went to Steve Gardner, who was the president of the, I don't remember if he'd yet become the president or not, but Larry Turbo and I went to the two of them and I said, look, we can solve one problem pretty quickly.
Kerin Kaminski (13:24):
The biggest thing was who was gonna be the first president. And everybody thought that from both sides that it had to be their side. I didn't think it mattered a Witt who was the first president, and it was more important to get the job done. So I told Steve who was, who would've been the president at the time we merged, that we would do a co-presidency. And he agreed to that. And at the, and so once that broke the ice, then we did a a list of all of the remaining issues. And I went to several people to help us figure out how to solve those major hurdles. And I basically just told everybody this was gonna happen. We were gonna solve all of these problems. If I could solve that first problem. And I was willing to step aside, and so was Steve Gardner, then it seemed to me that everybody else ought to be able to follow suit in order to get this done.
Kerin Kaminski (14:21):
You know, there's a lot of worries about what the economics of that was gonna be. So I relied on some people who did great analysis of what the economics would look like to demonstrate that in fact, the economics were gonna be better, not worse. Once we combined the organizations, the next biggest problem was who was gonna be the executive director of the organization. And that was when we just sort of rammed through to tell you the truth, that that was never gonna be something anybody agreed with. But it, it was the last issue. And so what I did is I said, well, let's list out what, what everybody's skillset are and what skillset we need. And we matched up what those skill sets were and determined that the, the then Cleveland Bar Association executive Director would remain the executive director. And we offered a very substantial position to the executive director of the Cuyahoga County Bar Association. But she made a choice that that isn't what you wanted to do.
Becky Ruppert McMahon (15:29):
There came a point where the board for the Cleveland Bar took up the issue, I assume, and had to actually take a vote on whether to unify or not. Do you remember those conversations at all?
Kerin Kaminski (15:41):
Yeah, I remember that by that time I had learned that before you put anything to a vote, you have a lot of conversations with people <laugh>, it's one of the significant skills of running a large organization is a lot of sidebars. And so by the time we got to a vote, there was really no naysayers. I mean, this, this was a machine that was moving. I don't think that anybody really believed they could stop it from, from rolling or that history would look well on them if they tried to. So by the time we took a vote, and I don't know, the records were reflected, I, I don't remember there being anybody that voted no or, or what have you. I remember it being unanimous and that was fairly important to me.
Becky Ruppert McMahon (16:24):
So the announcement of the merger, do you a any recollection of, of how the community, both the legal community and the broader community re reacted to the combining of the bars?
Kerin Kaminski (16:35):
At least what I heard, but, you know, then you, you have to be suspect of what I heard. 'cause Since I was a moving force behind, it was all very positive from both sides of, from, from both of the individual bars and from the community, the, we got a lot of good press mm-hmm. <Affirmative> on, on it.
Becky Ruppert McMahon (16:52):
So here we are sitting in 2023, and that unified bar now is 15 years old. You've continued to be actively involved in a variety of ways, including serving several years on the Bar Foundation board of directors. And I'm curious, Karen, what are your thoughts about where this unified Bar stands today and what it means to our community? Have we fulfilled what the vision was back in 2008?
Kerin Kaminski (17:18):
It definitely has fulfilled that. One thing that I haven't mentioned that was, was really critical to this was the foundation mergers. And that's been nothing but a huge success because it made all of the programs that both organizations did more vibrant because we brought new blood into 'em, we brought new excitement towards them, and we found that there was really more aligned than we thought there was. When we, we started that and we brought in new when, when that new board, I think began to really take seriously that they had to raise money and support these, these the, the programs that we had. And I think that the, the bar leadership, since my time has done a fabulous job in putting a focus on what it is we do for the community. And I think that we've become a much more, I think we became a much more community oriented organization.
Kerin Kaminski (18:12):
And I think that's to the success of having all voices. You know, the more voices you bring in, the more diverse voices, we became a more diverse bar, not in, in all of the measures. You know, what kind of practice you have, what your interests are, what your race is, what your religion is. We became a, a truly a diverse bar. And with diversity, at least it's my belief, you bring more spirit and more ideas to the table. And I think this new bar has had many more ideas and done much more for the community than we could have done as a single organization. So, yes, I, I thought it was a very smooth process. You know, everybody thinks it was very, it would be very difficult to bring these two cultures together, but I think we had a plan in place if we had, every committee had joint leadership, just like we had joint presidents. Every committee had joint leadership at first. We had joint plans that were put into place, and I thought it was pretty seamless, at least, again, I'm probably suspect because I didn't have to do the day-to-day, but I thought it was a pretty seamless process that worked well and the, the plans that we had started off running and has, has continued to run.
Becky Ruppert McMahon (19:29):
So, Karen, as you reflect back on the time that you spent as the 2007, 2008 president of the Cleveland Bar, it's last president, and as you created this new organization along with Steve as the first co-presidents of a brand new organization, what do you hope your legacy is and will be?
Kerin Kaminski (19:50):
I don't think of legacy. I'm too young. <Laugh>, I'm too young for legacy. I, I think that, that we got it done. You know, I worked hard on diversity efforts inside the bar. I started some of the diversity programs. So I would hope that that would be part of the legacy, but certainly my legacy is the final, putting the final screw in the building that, to, that built that building. You know, I, we stood on a lot of other people's efforts, but we certainly put the final touches on it.
Becky Ruppert McMahon (20:24):
Thank you, Karen, for your inspiration, leadership, and of course, your friendship. To hear other bar stories or to check out any of the CBAs other podcasts, please go to Spotify, apple, or wherever you get your favorite podcasts. You can also go to our website@cmetrobar.org slash podcast. We hope you listen again soon.