Mastering Candidate Experience: Creative & Digital | COAR S2-E5

Ghosting, dropouts, slow feedback, messy shortlists, and clients who “just want the CVs” aren’t random problems. They’re symptoms of a process that doesn’t build trust early and doesn’t make the work visible. We’re joined by Ryan Kelly from Creative Natives to talk about candidate management and candidate control in a way that’s practical, human, and built for the 2026 recruitment market.

We get into employer value proposition and employer branding that actually moves the needle: turning a role brief into a 30-second video, distributing it on LinkedIn, and using it as both candidate attraction and free PR for the client. Ryan explains why his agency positions itself as a true 50-50 partner to both client and candidate, plus the impact-led choices that back up those values, including incentives for hiring return-to-work parents.

From there we go deep on content marketing for recruiters, inbound business development, and what to measure when likes don’t tell the full story. Ryan shares how webinars, newsletters, and community (including Slack groups) create a slower burn that converts passive candidates into warm, trusting relationships over time. We also cover the nuts and bolts that lift interview-to-placement results: weekly update meetings, presenting shortlists live, capacity limits, interview prep calls, and the follow-up email that too many candidates never send.

If you want a smarter retained recruitment process and a better candidate experience without grinding harder, hit play. Subscribe, share this with a recruiter mate, and leave us a review with your favourite takeaway.

Transcript

Welcome And Ryan’s Background

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Alright Ryan, thanks for joining us on Confessions of a Recruiter, the founder and director of Creative Natives.

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Twelve years ago, I started at Michael Page doing software development prior to COVID. I started Creative Natives. One of the topics that we want to talk about is employer value props and branding. It just gives us that opportunity to stand out in a very cluttered crowd. We've always sort of looked at what impact can we have in the industry that we recruit outside of just filling jobs.

SPEAKER_02 0:34

Just to give everybody context before we get into uh this podcast, which is all about candidate management, candidate control, and managing a candidate through the process, do you want to share a little bit about your journey and some personal achievements that you've got in recruitment?

SPEAKER_01 0:48

Yeah, sure. Well, thanks, thanks for having me. In terms of my intro to recruitment, like a lot of British backpackers that um choose Australia over going back to the UK, I got into recruitment, I think 12 years ago. Um, started at Michael Page, um, had a about a year and a half at Michael Page doing software development um before moving to a um boutique agency called Aquint. I was there for about five and a half years. And just prior to COVID, I think about six months before COVID, I started Creative Natives. Um what was intention was a lifestyle business, um, has many iterations over the last six years, but we're now a team of five um across Melbourne, Sydney, specializes in in the uh creative, digital, and marketing space.

Values And The 50-50 Stance

SPEAKER_02 1:40

Love that. Okay, so six years running your own business. Um what we're ch what we're talking about today is and the the the flavor of this season is candidate management, candidate attraction, um, this type of um aspect on recruitment. Now, one of the topics that we want to talk about is employer value props and branding. So um, what I think you do really well at and what stands out to me about your business, your recruitment agency, is one, I love the name, Creative Natives. That's a really good name. Um, and second, how you position yourself and how you um how you kind of stand out over and above the typical recruitment agency brand. So uh I think if we just start there, I think that would be really nice to understand why you position your agency the way that you do and what benefits that has had for you in your last six years.

Incentives For Return-To-Work Parents

SPEAKER_01 2:34

So I think one of the um probably turning points or or moments as the business where we were very young, we we had next to no business because of COVID, we had no orders, and I remember being with a client and the client explicitly said to me in the meeting that you work for us because we pay the invoice. And in that moment, I actually said, Look, we don't actually work for you, we work for both, we work with the candidate and client 50-50, and we actually end up not getting that client, they ended up not deciding not to work with us. But it was a moment in time where I think it was a realization that to be successful in this game, you you do need to um I I guess sit right in the middle of both because market conditions will always differ and and go up and down. So, one moment when you've got the control with the client or what the control with the candidate, like that is always going to fluctuate. So you've got to kind of be be true to yourself, and for us, it was always about being that um middle ground between client and candidate. So that was kind of the the the why behind it. And I think what we've always done as a business is not been afraid to um have an opinion on on certain topics. Um, I think that comes from uh I guess having genuine values and and an interest in, you know, we we we talk internally about we want to be the the company that changes the industry. And that, you know, for a lot of people would sound like a you know a really lofty phrase, but we do see, particularly within the space that we recruit in, a lot of um challenges that come. Um, you know, for example, return to work parents not getting an opportunity. And you know, uh instead of just moaning about that, we actually um took it upon ourselves to um incentivize clients to hire return to work parents by offering them half the recruitment fee and extending the guarantee period. So we've we've always sort of looked at you know, what impact can we have in the industry that we recruit outside of just filling jobs?

SPEAKER_02 4:47

Wow, that's really interesting.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

Um, and so what was the outcome of doing these half- Yeah, so I mean, look, for us, it was I think we just had so many um frustrations of um clients having the mindset that this person needs to be five days a week. And we have, I think, close to 3,000 people signed up to our part-time um newsletter. And we have seen time and time again companies that hire you know return to work parents really benefit from you know their head down, get the work done attitude. And even though they can't do five days a week, they often actually do the equivalent of five days a week work. So we saw that as a real opportunity to uh clients to tap into that market, and we just wanted to give them um as much of an incentive to tap into this as possible. And you know, the half-price placement was one of them, but we also wanted to eradicate any concern that they felt like there was a risky hire because in our experience, these are probably the least risky hires you can make. So again, it was you know, sort of leading with example, putting our values first and really um going into bat for these people that are really struggling to find work at the moment.

Turning Briefs Into Branding Videos

SPEAKER_02 6:01

Okay, no, that's really interesting. I've I've never seen anyone lean into return from work parents as much as you have before, but it does make a lot of sense. You know, we um we employ a few return to work parents at Execruiter, and to be honest, they're like they they do a cracking job. So um talk to me about like branding for your clients. Um one thing that you do really well that we had a conversation with yesterday, actually, was around like a branding video to attract candidates to the roles that you're recruiting. Can you just you know walk us through what that is, how that works, why you do it?

SPEAKER_01 6:38

Yeah. So we you know I think it's probably fair to say that most businesses, whether they're an agency, an in-house team, you know, most businesses are pretty bad at telling the why of why a candidate should join their place to work. So what we where we see our role um with our clients is very much that PR to the candidate market. So what that means is instead of you know taking a brief and turning that into a a job advert on on Seek or one of those boards, um, we will actually turn the brief into a video content. So that could be um footage of their team, it could be um the values, the work, you know, all of the reasons we think that the company is a great place to work. And we package it up in a really cool um uh piece of content which goes for about 30 seconds, that's distributed across social media, and it just gives us that opportunity for to stand out in a very cluttered crowd. And clients like it, it's a real um, you know, they can use that video again for themselves, so it's just a point of difference. And I think in recruitment, you know, everyone is trying to do things slightly different and trying to have um an impact. And the videos themselves, A, they act as a really great way of um clients attracting candidates, but for us as well, it acts as a branding tool as to to to be able to showcase how we go about things, which we genuinely believe is a different approach to most. Do you do that for every client? Yeah, so we we have our our our package and we call it our partnership model. So we will take a brief, we will um, and and that brief is is often us really digging into um the company, you know, why someone would join. We then have our internal marketer that will take the the we'll we'll work with them to create that that piece of content. Often the clients will provide us the images or videos of of that they will often have on file, and we will we will turn that around usually within 24 to 48 hours for them to approve. And then once we get that approval, we will then go live to market. Um, videos. I mean, the the algorithm on LinkedIn is is obviously getting harder, but you know, at one point we were getting you know 30,000, 40,000 views on a video, and you know, my my conversation I have with business owners is this is not just only going to allow you to attract great candidates, this is an incredibly useful PR tool, right? You businesses spend thousands of dollars in Google ads and keywords, but we are giving them free PR across LinkedIn about their brand and about what they're doing. So for a lot of business owners, that's a bit of a no-brainer that that's part of the service that's included with us. That's really interesting. What when did you first think of this idea to attract candidates? Um, look, I think one of the things we've always been looking at is like, how do we, how are we different? And and again, like it's such an overused phrase, but you know, we we've looked at, you know, we've looked at, you know, retrained as all like ultimately we're looking at the process of being a partner to these businesses. And by doing the video, that's a part of it, but it's not just the the video. The video is the the tack, like the the tool that we use to attract candidates, not on job boards, but it's actually the quality of the process that we we follow. You know, we will set uh an update meeting the week after for a week's after we take the brief. In that week, we'll go through every single candidate we've approached about the role, we'll provide them a really uh under-the-bonnet view of what we've been doing in the previous week, and we will often say that within two weeks of us going to market, we're gonna have a really quality shortlist to you, and it's just that whole experience. And what we've found is some are obviously a bit reluctant, there is obviously a deposit involved, etc. But once you demonstrate and they've experienced that process, it's it's kind of almost impossible for them to ever want to go back to a different way of working. So it's you know, it it took a bit of you know confidence, but then once you believe in something to the to the level that we do internally, it's a very straightforward conversation with clients. You know, we are going to be a partner to your business, we're going to promote you, we're going to do this, we're going to do this, and by the way, we're going to get you the best in market. And this is the process we're going to follow.

SPEAKER_02 11:05

Yeah, wow. So has that ever, like just to be the contrarian right now, has that ever gone the the wrong way for you where it's created an issue with your client? Because I don't know, maybe they didn't like the content, and they're now they're asking you to do this and then do that, and it's creating more work and issues?

SPEAKER_01 11:20

Or look, I mean, I think each client has its own challenges. I mean, certain clients want the certain videos to look a certain way, and and and that's that's all part and parcel of it. Um, I think the the only real area that we've had sort of not challenges is but it's more just around educating clients that we we are gonna go to market with your brand and we're gonna take control of the whole process, right? And so you know, and again that's just an education piece because clients will often want to still do it themselves. And the conversation I have with them is we want to make this as streamlined as possible, and if we're both doing the same thing, it's gonna get messy. So just let us run with the whole process and and they're and again, most clients they don't they're not really worried about, they just want the best outcome, and if you can demonstrate that as an outcome to them, then they're they're gonna be happy with it. So again, we what I guess one of the things I say to the team is you can you can make placements, but with the process that we run, we genuinely get clients that stick with us for a long time because it is so different, right? And it's it's not it's not something that like is easy to replicate, right? We have a really talented marketer, Ven, who she's creating these videos, right? I know that that's not an option for a lot of recruitment businesses, so we've got to lean in on what we feel like is our our genuine USP and you know, and it's it's working really well.

SPEAKER_00 12:48

Yeah, I love that. Do you re- so sorry? I was gonna ask, do you replay back to your clients where the candidates come from? So in your short list, you say this did come through the the content.

SPEAKER_01 12:56

Yeah, so when we when we present to them, we will literally give them a breakdown of how many views the videos had. You know, we'll provide them the analytics, we'll we'll we'll talk them through. So in the long list, we'll have um you know, it's a spreadsheet that will say uh this candidate came through X, this is there, this has been a combination of direct outreach, etc. Right. So it's the very much that transparent way of working, right? Which it who doesn't like knowing what's going on, right? And and I think that recruitment, you know, ha like I think businesses need to do better at telling what goes on behind the scenes, right? If I was a client, I'd never worked in recruitment, I would just think that they've just been charged 30 grand for a CV that's come in their inbox, right? But if they're not told otherwise, you know, so so that's that's kind of the the the explainer part. And with the videos that we've now done, we've got like beautiful pitch decks, I think I said yesterday, testimonials, etc. etc. Right, and you know, it it's that's our tool to get in with new clients.

Content KPIs And Consultant Autonomy

SPEAKER_02 14:01

Okay, and just lastly on this branding piece before I'll hand it over to Ed. If a recruiter is running their agency right now, and I'm not saying you want to share your secret source or anything, but if they want to if they want to mature or elevate themselves in the way that they attract candidates and and create this kind of branding partnership with their clients, what's like the easy, low-lying fruit that they could start thinking about to go, okay, maybe just try this to start with and see how you go?

SPEAKER_01 14:27

I think I think most businesses make the mistake of putting everyone into one bucket and and you know, I've I've worked at businesses where it's like, you know, here's the content, everyone share this content, and and it and it just has absolutely zero cut through, right? Because it just looks shared, it looks like there's no thought that's gone into it. So I think the first thing that businesses should be looking at is giving their consultants like autonomy to create the content that sits and resonates with them. Okay, like that's the first thing that you need to be doing is is actually encouraging them to find their voice, to experiment, to actually get to understand what their tone of voice is, right? Um and and and I guess like, but also factor that into the KPIs because again, I'm not to say that KPIs don't exist, but if you're gonna be a recruiter successful in almost 2026, you've got to be looking at what are what are what are the KPIs that are you know that are always gonna stay consistent. But I think few businesses are looking at KPIs from like things like content, you know. Like those are the things where I say to the team all the time, your content is your BD, it's your candidate attraction, it is absolutely every part of your success. So if we're not measuring that, and we do, like it it's it's kind of like it's not it's it's so you've gotta I guess you've got to measure what you seem as seem as like impactful. Well, what's that measurement?

SPEAKER_02 16:05

Um so is it like four pieces of content a week? Is it 20 likes a week? Is it like what what is it specifically?

SPEAKER_01 16:12

I mean, we've um we've dabbled with um so there's platforms like Shield, for example, where it gives you like a really neat dashboard and it will show you things like um how many new contacts you're getting, how like how much um how successful has your content performed, what job titles are looking at your content, and and and so that that that is a really useful tool to track success of content. But I think that's a very good point about like tracking likes, because I think also sometimes the mistake is like content is too uh too skewed towards candidates, for example, right now the clo the content that is going to open doors from a new business perspective is probably not gonna get as much engagement as content that's representing candidates. You know, the simple math is most people are candidates, fewer actual business owners, right? So you've got to find that balance between connecting with or yeah, connecting with candidates and clients, but also be aware that certain content is gonna from an engagement perspective be far bigger than others, so you've got to look at things not just on an engagement.

Webinars As Outreach And Mindset Shift

SPEAKER_00 17:26

I like that. Nice. Um, so you've got a quite a unique approach to attracting candidates when it comes to direct outreach or proactively going after candidates. Do you have anything that you and your business does specific to that? Any kind of personalised way of approaching candidates that you you think would be interested in a role?

SPEAKER_01 17:45

Look, I think this applies to both new business and candidates and and things is a lot of it comes inbound, and I think that that is incredibly powerful, particularly from a working with a new client, right? If they reach out, oh, I saw something you did on LinkedIn, right? That instantly is your validation of okay, well, this is the process that's gonna follow, right? Who is gonna reach out and go, Oh, I saw you did this great thing on LinkedIn, but I'd actually prefer if you just did the traditional recruitment process of so so that that's kind of the so what we put out there leads to inbound, right? Um, I mean, I I do occasionally do outbound, like I will reach out to candidates. Am I doing anything particularly like pioneering? No, like I'm I'm genuinely not, and it's not I don't it's not that I don't see the value in having like individually customized messages, but I'm also very economic with my time. So I would rather instead of focusing my time on individual outreach, I would create a webinar, I would create an event, I'd create something that will get them in the funnel, which could be, and I think today I've done close to 50 webinars this year. Um, we run in-person events, we do I run an executive marketing meetup, so it's it's all from a place of be as useful and as valuable as possible, and they'll come to you.

unknown 19:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

So it it's that's that's my tactic with it. Have you done proactive outreaches to try and get them into the funnel? So direct message, but say, hey, we're running a webinar, would you be interested in and all about that?

SPEAKER_01 19:27

Absolutely, absolutely. So I I guess what I try and position into the team is like because business development for a lot of people like scares them, right? The the the concept of it. So I I think right, well, you've got to try and start with that as a mindset shift because if you're asking people new to recruitment to develop business, what does that even mean to someone who's like new to the industry, right? But instead, if you say to them, like, I want you to reach out to 50 people this week and say to them, hey, I'd I'm running a we're running a webinar that I thought might be interesting to you, like, would you be interested to come in, right? It's such an easier thing for them to get their head around and a more enjoyable process, right? So instead of having BD in your calendar, have be useful, right? Or be valuable, like because people like to be useful, right? It's a human trait, right? So if you're encouraging your team to be useful in that hour versus develop business, like it just helps and gets people interested in doing that activity. So I think you've just got to be thinking about how things are positioned, how they're perceived at a junior level. Because I I've said this many times. My my first year of recruitment, I was terrible. Like I was genuinely like I just I was just what what is this game? Like it's so hard to get your head around all the different moving parts. So if you someone, if your manager says to you, right, two hours of B D, I just think it's completely pointless. Like it's it's counteract like counterproductive. Like, but you end up fearing it. The person who gets the call is probably going, Well, that was average.

SPEAKER_02 21:07

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SPEAKER_00 21:38

It's a very interesting thing you can say because we were talking about this over breakfast, and Blake was saying his approach back in the day when he was on the tools was just BD. And I said I used to focus very heavily on candidates and senior candidates and generating business and interest that way. How do you go about doing BD via candidates? Is that an approach you take?

SPEAKER_01 21:56

I think just on that point, though, but I think something that particularly business owners need. To realize is that the world has changed in 10 years, right? Like the fundamental people aren't answering the phone anymore, right? So if we're asking people to do what we did in a different era, it again it's it's it's it's not that's not going to be effective, right? Um but like and I I don't like again. I'm not saying that these techniques don't work, but like the whole ambulance chasing, floating, all like like I think it can work, right? But it's not something that I enjoy doing. It it just it's just not, and so and it's probably just uh uh the where I've got to in recruitment is I'd much rather focus on putting usefulness out there that a client wants to then sit down and give a proper brief, we take a deposit, we run a proper search, and that there's the satisfaction, right? You know, it's not to say we don't still make placements from XYZ and all of that stuff, but it's not the business that I want. And I want for people that start in our business, they only work on retained roles, they only do that, right? I can I'm happy to pick up the scraps or pick up the the the you know that but that's me, right? Whereas I want people that come into this business to actually experience retained recruitment from day one, and because because if you only experience that at the start of your journey, you're you're sure you you get it, right? You understand it straight away. It's like bang, it's like you've developed that habit that they can understand the benefits of it. So that's my philosophy on it, right? And it's not to say that there's not businesses out there making a hell of a lot of money from floats and all of that stuff. Like I get it's not it's not my business though, it's not what I want.

SPEAKER_00 23:41

Okay. Um, so final question for me on on kind of outreaching direct to candidates, because you know, we've come from the same world, which is the percentages might be slightly off, but you know, 90% of candidates are passive, 10% are active, and if you're only relying on ones coming to you, you're only attracting 10% of the market. So there is that whole world of passive. So are you saying that your approach is to just over time convert those passive candidates to being active just by demonstrating value in the market, or do you have any other approach to to get those people?

SPEAKER_01 24:10

I g I guess it I and I I think that you you've you've kind of got to like there's a point in time, like if you're reaching out to someone, then they might not have made that decision to move yet, right? And and I'm again I'm not saying that that that's not effective, like some like obviously headhunting, and you know that that's that's that's that's definitely there, right? But but I would rather get someone through five webinars that they've found useful. I'd rather have all of this stuff, you know. There most people are seeing what I'm putting out there in content, and and what I'm what we're creating is just a period of trust developing over time so that that moment where they go, right, I'm I'm ready to make a move, I will come to creative natives, right? And I think that that process will probably uh prevent a lot of um you know, fallouts, dropouts, and stuff like that, because people people are confusing, right? They they they they don't know what they want, right? And sometimes you have to let them come to you to be at that point where they are and they've they've built that trust. And the conversation I have with candidates is all the time like we're gonna do this slow, right? I said if you're just wanting to do this straight away, I'll probably not the recruiter for you. Okay, it may take us six months, but I'm gonna wait until the right opportunity comes up before presenting it to you. So it's a slower process, and I think that that just helps just make sure it's done the right way.

Funnels Newsletters And Segmenting Audiences

SPEAKER_02 25:54

That's really interesting around the speed that you reference. Um, because the next point that we want to talk about is speed in either getting back to the candidates, getting them to a role, and and the whole managing the process and and the speed around those conversions and milestones. So um, so walk us through that. Like someone comes inbound on a webinar, yeah, you get their name, their email, their number. Do you call them? Do you put them in a like I don't know, an email funnel sequence? Like what do you do specifically once someone comes inbound?

SPEAKER_01 26:27

Yeah, so yeah, they they're very much um into our marketing um funnel. So they will um, you know, we have um a couple of newsletters that go out a month. Um, the good stuff, which is our monthly email. Um I've been told a lot it's a decent newsletter for for a recruiting business. It doesn't really talk much about recruitment. It's it's it's just again, it's either webinars, events, it's just like what I would think would be quite useful to get, right? And we have an incredibly high open rate, and and because it's been curated and we haven't we haven't gone down this route of you know, like I guess my partner's an email marketer, and she's she's very like of the opinion, and it's it's it's it's good is like don't don't try and don't try and spam your way to to to to success, right? Because it it's a quick way to turn people off, right? And so we've just it's just grown slowly, slowly over the years, that that email list, right? What are you saying it specifically? It's got information that we think our clients are going to find super useful. Oh, it's clients. Well, it goes out to clients and candidates, okay? So it's but it's not of a like it doesn't feel like a recruitment newsletter, okay? It's got um really interesting like stories, interviews with business owners, and yeah, look, it's it's had some really good feedback, and that's where we we spend a lot of time and effort into to creating that, right? So that's something that we're very mindful of is once people go in the funnel, what is their first experience with us through a comms situation? Um, and then we then segment it into like we have different emails that people can subscribe to. So there's like part-time jobs, freelance jobs, thingies, right? So people opt in for those and then we go out, like then they get notified of those jobs there, right? So we want to make sure that each person, and look, we're not perfect, we're a small team, and but we want to make sure that the comms feels like consistent with our brand as well. We're not just pushing stuff down their throat, oh you've got to do this, you've got to do that. So it's a slower burn when when it comes to that.

Slack Communities And Talent Showcases

SPEAKER_02 28:39

Okay, so so you have uh different channels, um, freelance, part-time, full-time. Do you use like tech or software or something on the back end to be able to put them in different buckets and send them relevant information to their kind of segment? Do you? Or how does that work in in practice?

SPEAKER_01 28:56

We use um active campaign, which has the um the database um organized into uh different um profiles, I suppose. Um so yes, that is definitely something that happens. Um, you know, we have other channels we use. We use Slack, which we've created for our clients, we've used um we we've created Slack channels for candidates, you know. So there's like I think one thing we're we're trying to do more of is is focusing on that community aspect, right? So for example, I have a Slack channel which is made up, I think, of nearly 500 of my clients all on one one channel, right? Really? Yeah, and so for them, that is an opportunity for like creative agency owners to converse with each other to ask about like what's working, what's what's not working, um, what technology are they using, what what software? Yeah, so it's creating a platform for that to happen, and then we then take that platform and then run in-person events where they get to meet up once or twice a year.

SPEAKER_02 30:02

What's the what's the outcome of that? Like, what do you see some wins are of that community? 500 people in a in a Slack room. Are they doing business together? Are they like becoming friends? Like, what what's happening in that?

SPEAKER_01 30:14

Absolutely. So you there's a channel within that called New Business. So um, so the agency owners would say, Hey, I've had something that probably sits slightly outside of my remit. Would anyone be up for this? So there's you know, so like again, going back to that value piece, you've got to try and create uh an environment where it feels like there's a real benefit to being in there, and that will then transcend to um the in-person events, okay? Um like that's for me going back to the being economical with my time. If I can have all of my clients in one room once or twice a year, it's an incredibly useful way of adding value and you know, with with limited time.

SPEAKER_02 31:04

And so do you have a what what's your like your general timeline between when someone comes inbound when you're recruiting a job to when you place them? Do you have like a metric of success for you? I know you said this could take six months if a candidate's like desperate to get into a new role, but like what do you find your kind of averages?

SPEAKER_01 31:21

I guess you know, without being vacated, it obviously depends on the skill set, demand, all of that stuff. So, you know, we have a talent showcase that goes out every every two weeks, right? And that's 12 of our best candidates that we've met in the last two weeks that go into that talent showcase, right? So that would be more suitable to perhaps talent that are you know available immediately and we want to proactively work with them. So we'll say to candidates, hey, look, we're not just gonna wait for a brief to come in, we're actually gonna take you to market and proactively showcase you. So that's that's one aspect of it, right? So if the candidate is available straight away, that will be something that we will include them in, and that's our way of proactively taking them to market, and that goes out to our entire client database on that, okay. Um and you know, another thing, so I will often post about candidates on LinkedIn, right? Versus jobs. Like, I don't see necessarily the value in jobs, I'd rather again it depends on where the market's at at the moment, but I will often do um a post once a week. Hey, here are three of my best candidates at the moment. I might do a call to action half price if an interview's booked by the end of the day. So it's there, you know. Like, so I don't know, it's just having a bit of fun with it, right? It's not like and and I think it's not about diluting your brand by offering discount, but it's also just being aware that like sometimes you have to navigate markets differently to others, right? Sometimes when the tough market's a bit tough, you you want to a get someone a new job, but also create a bit of equity in your market if you're doing a few discounts here and there.

SPEAKER_02 33:01

Yeah, I think you're approaching it really differently.

SPEAKER_01 33:03

Because that worked, the uh the discount thing if you do all the time. Really? All the time. Love it. Like it's again, but those posts get no engagement. Yeah, no one wants to be seen to be liking it. No, no, but like I'll literally get a message straight away and go, that person looks interesting. Can I can I do it? And and I'm like, fine, half price, like it's it's fine. I'm I'm I'm you know, I'm sat with three great candidates, and if I can place two out of them by doing a LinkedIn post, which takes me a minute, it's a good ROI, isn't it? Right? So it's um there's different there's different ways of looking at it. Um, you know, we might even do like I'll donate some money to a charity or something like that, right? It's so but I think recruitment, you it's just this constant cycle of you know what like who who holds the power, and I think that ultimately is what I think I've come to a realization that the ghosting happens when whoever's got the power. When clients have got the power, they don't come back to your feedback. When candidates are in demand, they do whatever, right? So it's not any like anyone, no one's bad people, they just abuse the power they have at the time. We saw it in COVID when salaries went through the roof and candidates were acting ahead of themselves. But it's all kind of it just goes inside circles, right? And that's I think that's the going back to the importance of being impartial to both clients and candidates and having the you're wanting the best outcome for both, right?

Candidate Experience And Friday Check-Ins

SPEAKER_00 34:30

So, I mean that should I think hold time. Even talking to you now, I'm just thinking about what the experience is like for a candidate, it seems very different to a traditional recruitment agency and how as a candidate I would experience um creative natives. How do you define a an excellent candidate experience?

SPEAKER_01 34:47

I think you can always strive for the best possible, but I think you also have to be comfortable with the reality that you can't please everyone. And I think that's something that I think anyone in recruitment has to kind of get their head around quite quickly, is you're not gonna please everyone. I think you can um I think do as good as good as possible at all times, but know that there's probably people that have a less of a great experience with you, right? So I think if you're not if you don't have that mindset, you can end up just like you know, running yourself into the ground and you you so you've gotta be okay with that. But I I think the candidate experience, you know, I'd like to think is one that is genuinely listening to what they want, genuinely like going, okay, right, like taking in their needs, and this is again basic recruitment, but I think that with the development of technology and post-COVID, those conversations are getting shorter and shorter and shorter, and people aren't actually finding out what they need to in those conversations. And it's one of the things I I speak to the team about all the time is you've got to you've got to dig deeper with with with them. If you just take one-word answers, then you're not actually getting to know them. So I'd like to think the people that when they work with us feel listened to, feel like their needs are being trying to be met, and ultimately they're kept up to date with what's going on. You know, that incredible, powerful tool, which I I say to the team every do it every Friday between 10 and 11, like whatever, like but have that hour of just text, call, email everyone who's involved in something you have in the last and just say, Hey, I don't have an update, but I'm just I'm thinking of you. That's the best BD tool you'll ever have. Because I can guarantee you, particularly with senior candidates, if you treat them like treat your candidates, senior candidates, that is that is the best BD tool because you calling them on a Friday when they're probably feeling a bit low and they're about to go and speak to their friends at the weekend. That that that call could be the most powerful tool that they that you have. Hey, I don't have an update for you, but I'm just I'm ringing you to let you know I know looking for work's hard, but I haven't forgotten you, right?

SPEAKER_00 37:07

When they get a job, they will remember that. I used to think like that all the time because it is what you just mentioned that shift in power because you kind of have the power when they need you, and then suddenly they become a client and you need them. And if you have that balance in power, it works. 100%.

Interview Prep And Follow-Up Emails

SPEAKER_01 37:20

And look, it's just it's just treat people like how you'd want to be treated, right? And again, I'm not sat here going every candidate has a perfect experience with me, but I tr I try, right? I I try to do the right thing, and I think that that if you know, if you're trying to give a junior advice, is just try and do the right thing as much as much as possible. Know that things will go wrong, but if you try to have the best intentions, it will work out.

SPEAKER_00 37:46

How um I'm pivoting slightly, but I I want to talk about preparing candidates for interviews. Um how do you go about helping your candidates prepare for interviews in the most effective way, whether they are incredible at interviews or haven't showcased themselves particularly well with you, but you know they could do very well in the role. What have you got an approach or a a way you do it?

SPEAKER_01 38:06

I like to send them a calendar invite for 24 hours, 48 hours before their interview, and I will like I think that you your role in a brief, when you're taking a brief, is extracting as much information, not just about the job, but about the interview process as possible, right? So I will ask a client. So we've got this interview, like, what are you trying to get out of that first interview, right? You're almost like trying to get a sneak peek of like what that interview is gonna be, right? So I think a good brief should yes be qualifying the job, but it should also be getting as much information that you can take to that candidate as possible, right? You get that information, you give the candidate what you think there's gonna be there, and I think then you say to them, I'm gonna give you a call in about two days' time, and we're gonna go through these, and I'm gonna give you honest feedback, and we're gonna then use that as a way of getting you better for this interview, right? I have a incredibly high success rate of interview to placements because I think that I think too many like you you like that we we've we we play this funny game of trying to get jobs on, trying to get all this right, but I actually think it's not about getting all the jobs on, it's just about maximising the ones that you have got and giving those candidates as good an opportunity to get that job as possible, right? I say to candidates every time, regardless of job, send a follow-up email to your clients the second or have it pre-done. This is what and I'd literally say to them, this is what you're gonna say in this email afterwards, you're gonna say, This is what excites me about the role, this is what we're gonna, this is what they're gonna, and and literally get them to do that. I don't care if they had the worst interview ever. I would like to think that most candidates that I put forward for roles send a follow-up email.

SPEAKER_00 39:58

Because it it it it just has a massive impact. It really does. I've been a hiring manager, not getting an email because I was from recruitment thinking, nope, they don't care enough about this job.

SPEAKER_01 40:08

It's bizarre. Yeah, so it's yeah, it's it but but you know, you I think you've got to also know that people don't like this this may feel natural to us, but for a lot of people, they don't they don't think about like this. They don't they don't think about it right. So you've kind of almost got to instill values to them as a candidate to to the clients that you're working with. And I like honestly, even I would I would honestly say that even if they mess up the interview big time, the client's probably not gonna be that bothered if they get a good follow-up email, right? Because they they will at least go, well, you know what, they they are a good person. They might not be right for this role, but again, those interactions they have with your candidates will reflect on your brand.

SPEAKER_02 40:47

So why do you think you've got a really good what is your um interview to placement ratio? You are talking to a guy who's not very good at looking at stats. That's is that the creative element of DVD? Most of them.

SPEAKER_01 40:59

Like I I yeah, so admin analytic like that's not my my thing, right? But I would it would be very rare that I would have a short list that someone didn't get the job.

SPEAKER_00 41:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 41:09

Like very, very rare. Like I like I would probably beat myself up if I didn't fill a role and I had a short list.

SPEAKER_00 41:15

I I wouldn't I wouldn't feel good. I've got a question and it's slightly off, but if you had four candidates going for an interview on the same day, yes. Everyone used to talk about this when I was in recruitment, where you put your best candidates. Have you got a theory on that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's yours?

SPEAKER_01 41:28

Yeah, so I always put so firstly, I I'm very mindful of the day in which the interviews happen, right? So I wouldn't be doing Mondays, right? So I think the sweet spot is your third and best candidate goes in Friday morning, right? And so I'll always put my best, well, I say best, but the one I think is most suitable for the position, and I'll probably put my outsider in first, and I'll use the the outsider to to try and get as much information about that as possible. Like a sacrificial lamb.

SPEAKER_02 42:00

Well, I mean we used to call it the filler.

SPEAKER_00 42:03

I used to put my most engaging one in there first, the one who gets one in a good mood, my best one second, you know. That's how I'd go for it. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I look, I think, I think there is definitely merit in it.

SPEAKER_01 42:12

I I like um but I I I I I try not to fill with people like Yeah, I know. I shouldn't I was just a curiosity thing. No, no, I I'd just be like, look, I I'm I'm gonna put you two people forward, or I'll put three people forward.

Presenting Shortlists And Protecting Capacity

SPEAKER_02 42:25

Um yeah, so so why do you why do you think you've got a good um interview to to to placement ratio? Is it because you're exceptional at prepping the candidates, finding the candidates, prepping the client? Like what is it specifically that you're always pretty confident that when I deliver this short list, someone will get the job? And actually, before before you answer that, do you send all candidates at the same time or do you send them as they come through?

SPEAKER_01 42:50

So they they will be presented as part of our process. We will we will give you a give a detailed presentation on the search. Within that presentation, they'll have all the profiles, it will have their strengths, weaknesses, areas to probe, it will have a real detailed analysis of them. So they'll get a full breakdown of that for the candidate. So and that's something that we've moved like and obviously this is only when we work in partnership, which is 85% of our work now when we do it, but I want to avoid just sending CVs, I want to present because if I can present, I can talk and sell the candidate in. If I'm just sending a CV, that's that's not that's not great. So I will always try and present versus send CVs.

SPEAKER_02 43:36

Just to be clear, you've you've found three people that you want to send. Don't send them yet. You jump on a video call with the client and say, I'm ready to present you the three people I've found. When can we catch up?

unknown 43:47

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 43:48

What if they just say, Oh, just send them across, mate?

SPEAKER_01 43:50

When we're on the the briefing call initially, I will say to them, Hey, I'd like to have an update meeting with you in a week. Okay, at a very minimum, I'm gonna you're gonna be Able to see what I've been doing behind the scenes, who I've spoken to, and I'll also be able to present to you anyone who I think is suitable. Okay, can I grab your time in your diary now? Literally, we'll leave that call with that second call teed up. Gotcha. And it also prevents time wasting, right? There's the if you get off a meeting and then it's like you're back and forth and things, like just book it on there, right? You're on the you're on the call, you're in person with them. Hey, what are you doing next Wednesday? Can I take some time of your diary now? And we're going to give you an update. And in that email, it will be progress report of X role we're working on. And on that role, um, yeah, we'll provide them ahead of the meeting a full breakdown of the long list, who we've spoken to, all of that that stuff that's happened, and we will then um be able to talk through the candidates on the call. And what if you don't have an update for them?

SPEAKER_02 44:50

What if you're like you're slammed and you haven't worked on their role?

SPEAKER_01 44:52

Do you ever get a little bit like well that's that's the point where we say no to work because we know that there's a certain amount of roles that we can take on as a business. So there's no there's no world where that would happen because we wouldn't we wouldn't have taken a deposit with the client, produced a video if we don't have capacity to work on it. So we have regularly throughout this year, we've got a a sign, like a an art that we will put on LinkedIn, we are at capacity, we will not take any more work on, right? Done it probably 10 times in the last 12 months.

SPEAKER_02 45:22

It's very counterintuitive. No, it's about not taking any more clients, and yourself in the wait list.

SPEAKER_01 45:28

There's a few reasons behind that, right? It's you there is always enough as enough, right? And so if you're if you're actually saying no, I've got five retained roles on at the moment, we've got three of us do it delivering this, we are okay with that. Like, that's a nice that again, it goes back to that enjoyment part of recruitment. If you're invested in it and working with really great brands, and we've worked on some really cool brands recently where it's like you're kind of getting the pick of the bunch because it's a good brand, there's great salary, like, so it's just an enjoyable process, and you're like, and you can see in the team, they're excited, right? We just worked with um the Tony and Ryan podcast, right? And we just uh helped them with their head of social, right? This show has like millions of viewers, right? And they would like well, I'm probably speaking from their behalf, but they were probably blown away with the level like we created this video for them within 48 hours, went out to market with it, found the best social people in Australia because we got people excited about the role and presented back to them, right? And we've just filled it, right? So like we we only have a certain amount of capacity that we'll take on. Um, and I think it's something that people does weird people out, right? It's such an un thing to do, but it also it doesn't have any impact on demand. In fact, if if it's the opposite, yeah, I would think like that.

SPEAKER_00 46:52

It's almost representing the market we're we're we're doing so well, we know this is it for now, but we'll let you know when we can work with you. Yeah, it makes sense.

Candidate Control Through Real Rapport

SPEAKER_02 47:00

Yeah, so okay, what about um and this is gonna be the final segment um until we move on to our um onto our game, Are You Smarter Than Ed? Okay, which everyone is by the way. Talk to me about uh like creating urgency and trying to like trial close a candidate, all this kind of stuff, because it's it's all well and good to give them a pleasant experience, but what about the people that stuff you around? Like, how do you go about controlling the candidate through the process to make sure that the outcome is what you want by the end?

SPEAKER_01 47:33

I mean, uh recruitment's fun. Like there's you can have all the theory in the world, but people will always change their minds, right? Um, but I I think that the the classic, what is it, recruitment training you get told, ask him every call, has anything changed since we last spoke, right? I'm sure we've all had that as part of our training. Um I think I think it's like overcommunicate with them, right? Is I I don't know, like the best recruiters I've ever worked with it just like they're they're just always on the phone. Right? And I think it's something that is definitely a generational shift where that c that phone conversation is becoming less and less and it and it's it's becoming so so I think that candidates are losing that rapport with with people, right? And I and I I think I think people are so much more open to screwing over their recruiter if they've never met them or had a decent conversation with them. So I think it's uh I think you get out what you put in in this game and I think that the times where things have fallen over, if I'm being honest, that they're probably f sort of deserved. Like it do you know, like you've you've kind of you've skipped over things a bit too quick, you've made assumptions, you've but we're human beings, aren't we? Like we it's again, it's it's it's well and good having these theories of you should do this, this, this, but you've also got to do a million other things that are going on, plus you've got kids, plus you've got you know, so there's always gonna be times where it happens. But that's kind of what makes this job what it is.

SPEAKER_02 49:19

You're essentially saying that um maybe there's no, you know, phrase to use, you know, what has changed since our last discussion. More it's around digging deeper, meeting them, taking the time with them, and then that was is essentially how you create the control and urgency in relationship rather than just crunching them with qualifying questions at every stage.

SPEAKER_01 49:45

Exactly. Like, I mean, it I think a an interview shouldn't feel like an interview. It should like it, and I think that that like a good interview is is a combination of of therapy, it's a combination of like speaking to a friend, it's having like so it's blending all of those things, right? And I'm definitely not saying like your whole point of the conversation is just to have banter with them, right? Because I think there's also people make the mistake of that of like, yeah, we we got on really great. Well, great. They they got they like they they thought you were funny, but they will screw you over, right? Because you haven't built that credibility. So it's it's factoring all of those things to go, they they trust you, they buy into you, and they you know, and and I think that's that's the part that you've got to focus on is do they buy into you, do they see you as a credible recruiter, do they like you, and you know, do you have the information you need to represent them? Love that.

SPEAKER_02 50:38

So, Ryan, what's the one thing that if recruiters could take away only one thing from this podcast, what should it be?

SPEAKER_01 50:46

Create content. I feel like a one-trick pony with it, but like I just I think the opportunity is so unbelievable if it's done properly, right? And if you can and like create a habit of creating content which essentially will allow thousands and thousands of potential clients and candidates to see what you're doing daily, like it's a no-brainer. Like, if this was available 25 years ago, it would have been like whoa, whoa, but we've become accustomed to this being there. But I think and like honestly, I don't know how long it will be available. Like, I'm sure LinkedIn are not going, Oh, yeah, that organic reach is really helping our share price, but you you've got to lean into it, right? So, you know, for me, it's been the biggest game changer for us. It's turned the conversations from outbound to inbound, it's it's led to a higher quality of everything, and and like it yeah, so that that's that for me would be and it's the thing that people start with us day one, and we go, This is why you do content. And if you come to me and say I haven't got any ideas, I'm gonna sit with you for an hour and we're gonna come up with ideas and I'll help you, all right. And yeah, not everyone's fully on board at the start, but it the moment when it the penny drops is I saw something you wrote. I'd love you know.

Are You Smarter Than Ed

SPEAKER_02 52:14

There you go, guys. So if uh if you're struggling with content, catch up with Ryan, he'll sit with you for an hour and he'll help you come up with some ideas. Let's go join a webinar. Join a webinar, join a webinar. Oh, that's so good. Okay, awesome. So let's move into uh Are You Smarter Than Ed? Q Who Wants to Be a Millionaire Music. What year was LinkedIn founded? Ed. Ed. 2004. Damn, I worked there. A 2002, B, 2003, C, 2004, D, 2005. 2002.

SPEAKER_03 52:56

Bang! Well playing.

SPEAKER_02 52:59

Hi, yeah. How did you is that a lucky guess? Forgot about the multiple choice for a second. Yeah. What's going on? Yeah. What is the average number of interviews before a job offer? A, one to two. B, two to three. Ed. C, two to three. Correct. That was playing the averages there. Yeah. What major tech company acquired LinkedIn in 90s? That was Ed. Microsoft.

SPEAKER_00 53:29

Correct. Oh, come on, two LinkedIn questions.

SPEAKER_02 53:32

Okay, so it's two-one at the moment, two to Ed, one to Ryan. This could be the win for Ed. Which country has the shortest average hiring time? A USA. B, Germany, C, India, D, Australia.

SPEAKER_00 53:51

That's right. Oh, sorry. I feel like Germans are the most efficient. So I'm gonna say Germany. Bub. India. Bub. Ed. USA.

Where To Find Ryan And Wrap

SPEAKER_02 54:04

Australia. No, you can't do that. No, you can't do that. No, you gotta know. You gotta give it to him. Okay, alright. Alright, fair enough. Alright, it's too old. This is to win the game. What country is a Deco originally from? Ryan. Ryan. And UK. Babol. Netherlands. A. Oh, well, you've already said Netherlands, so that's a babole. But now I'm gonna continue with the multiple choice, and you can both buzz in, okay? A France. B Switzerland. C Germany. D USA. Ryan. Ryan. Switzerland. Boom! Ryan. Well played, mate. Well, Ryan, I appreciate you coming on Confessions of a Recruiter. Thanks for having me. It was fun talking. It was fun learning about you. It's fun learning about um native creatives. Creative natives. Sorry, creative natives. Dyslexic. Um, how can someone reach out to you if they uh want to have a chat? Uh link LinkedIn, yeah. 44,000 followers, I saw. Who's counting, hey? You're LinkedIn famous, mate. Well, he knows when they were founded. So uh yeah. Awesome. Well, thanks very much. No, thanks, Jens. It's been it's been fun.

SPEAKER_00 55:11

Even though you're sick, you did a great job. Thanks, mate.