Rav Prasad | From Selling Gym Memberships to Founding His Own Agency | COAR S3 E2

A recruiter who still loves picking up the phone after 16 years is either wired differently or has figured out something most people miss. Rav Prasad joins us to unpack how he went from selling gym memberships to thriving inside major agencies, then stepping out on his own and building Humanistics in Brisbane. Along the way we get into what the Michael Page environment demands, why standards and internal reputation can shape your career, and how those early years harden the skills that matter when markets turn. 

We compare agency cultures and recruitment KPIs in real terms, including what the Robert Half contracting engine feels like, why activity and connected calls change everything, and the downside of being siloed when you spot a great lead. Rav breaks down why he stayed in accounting and finance recruitment, how Brisbane has become more transactional, and why human connection is still the edge when everyone is moving fast. If you care about candidate experience, client trust, and doing business development without burning out, there are plenty of practical cues you can steal. 

We also go deeper on leadership and building a recruitment business. Rav shares the mistakes he regrets, why focusing on titles can pull you off track, and what “consistency” looks like day to day when you run your own desk. Then we look forward: AI in recruitment, where automation genuinely helps (admin), where it falls short (context), and why meeting people face to face still gives you information you cannot get on Teams. 

If you enjoyed the chat, subscribe, share it with a recruiter mate, and leave us a review so more people can find the show. 

Transcript

From Gym Sales To Recruitment

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Today we are joined with the legend Rap Frasard. Tell us about how you got into recruitment. I just kind of stumbled into it. I was working in a gym, selling gym memberships. Tell me about your the start of your career in Michael Page, because obviously we know each other from Michael Page back in the day.

SPEAKER_02 0:13

I mean it was a shock. The culture the first time around is very salesy. KPIs at Robert Half are very different to Michael Page. But core hours at Robert Half was like, shut the f up. The environment there was between 9 and 12. It was loud. It was awesome. What do you think is the hardest part of the job early days? Going out and doing enough work. As a recruiter, for me, I'm very instinctive. So if I pick up a lead, I'm going to chase it straight away. You were siloed at Michael Page into you are North Side only, doing temp. That was hard because when you pass a lead to somebody and they weren't as passionate about it, you would be like 16 years in recruitment?

SPEAKER_01 0:48

That's a lot. So are you still on the phone? Every day. You're just always hammering it. Do you have any actual confessions? Anything that you look back on your career and go, that was a mistake.

SPEAKER_02 0:55

Yeah, I mean a few.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

Let's get into it. Rav, thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me, Ed. Good man. Well, Rav is the founder of Humanistics in Brisbane, but I actually we know each other from from way back when. So we might actually start, not with your first at Michael Page, because we we've heard that, but tell us about how you got into recruitment.

SPEAKER_02 1:16

Well, mate, yeah, thanks uh for having me. I um I got into recruitment because I I just kind of stumbled into it. You know, I was working yeah, I was working in a gym, selling gym memberships for fitness first, you know. And um I applied for this job, just a random PRC ad. And uh I interviewed with Josh, Josh Rafter. Oh yeah, and uh yeah, he kind of saw something in me, and mate, that was it. Amazing, yeah, like 12 interviews later.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

Oh, there were long interview processes in those days. They were tell me like your the start of your career in Michael Page, because obviously we know each other from Michael Page back in the day. Um but I'd love to hear it from like your perspective, what it was like joining a pretty established business coming from your background.

SPEAKER_02 1:59

I mean, it was

The Shock Of Michael Page

SPEAKER_02 2:00

a shock, yeah, to be honest. I I you know I was used to gyms, right? So everyone was kind of just a bit not not as sharp. And and I walked into I just remember being on the sales floor and walking in and and and seeing people like you with a full Windsor knot and a like perfectly fitting suit. Everyone's clean shaven. They don't fit me anymore, by the way. Right. Yeah, okay. I didn't want to say anything, but they just looked so sharp, you can hear people on the phone, they're all especially you, you're standing up at your desk, you know, closing deals and stuff, and it's just very intimidating. Uh, especially if you did not own a good suit. That that sucked. Um But it was it was it was a real eye-opener. Um something that I I was kind of really motivated when I came in because I was like, whoa, like these people are professionals, they're on the phone, they're not just feet on the desk selling a gym membership. They're really closing deals and they're they're talking a different language. So um big eye opener, but but a good one.

SPEAKER_01 3:03

And how long were you because did you do two stints at Michael Page? I did, yeah. Yeah. So tell me about the first stint. Because I think I must have we must have crossed over about by about four or five years, maybe I think. Um tell us about the first stint, like the culture, and was it different going back the second time?

SPEAKER_02 3:17

Oh, heaps different. Yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah. The culture the first time around is you know, pick up the phone, very salesy type culture, which to be honest, I I really preferred. Um I I thought the training was great, it was really professional. The standard of people that you would hire Michael Page at that point was it was awesome, you know. Like the conversations about PRCs were like, no, they haven't done this, they did not impress me saying this, I haven't done enough, or they're not competitive enough, so no. And it was like, oh, awesome. You know, and so that you knew when someone would start the the caliber of person you were getting was was great. Um, I remember when I when I left and went to Robert Half. Um again, that was a real step up on a from a sales culture perspective. The KPIs at Robert Half are very different to to Michael Page. Robert Half's an 80%, I don't know if that's changed since when I was there, but they were an 80% uh contracting business. So that's what they did mainly versus Paige, which was you know more more perm. So your KPIs there at Robert Half were like full on. Like you we're we're talking, you know, 100 plus calls a week. Connected calls. Connected calls. Yeah, they they would have inside outside model where if you were running a temp desk, you would have someone on the outside uh just doing meetings. So their their KPI was to do 20 client meetings a week, pick up jobs from those meetings, call you, you source the jobs and then connect with the client, and you go 50-50 on the margin.

SPEAKER_01 4:51

So you do the BD, get the meeting set up, they attended the meetings and then came back and you filled it.

SPEAKER_02 4:56

Well, they would do the BD, right? So the outside person was all BD, inside person was all candidates. It was manic, but it worked.

SPEAKER_01 5:02

It sounds like a very American well, obviously it's an American business, right? It sounds like a very American structure. It's very American. Which side did you set on? Because you you were a division manager there, is that right? Yeah. So as a division manager, do you look after both sides?

SPEAKER_02 5:14

No, no. So um they've got they called it accounting temps, and then they had accounting and finance, which was the perm stuff. Um I did perm. I was so thankful for doing perm over there because that was like temp speed at Michael Page. Um so that was a real shock. Like they were they were awesome uh on the temp side, and I really learnt a lot from from that point in terms of wow, like, you know, at Michael Page, I think there's a lot of time to breathe over there from nine to twelve, you know, core hours, right? We we we kind of loosely had core hours at Michael Page, yeah, but core hours at Robert Half was like, shut the fuck up.

SPEAKER_01 5:52

Don't go to the toilet, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:54

Yeah, yeah, don't look at your phone, just go.

SPEAKER_01 5:57

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 5:58

And and the environment there was between nine and twelve, it was loud and it was awesome.

SPEAKER_01 6:02

That's good. That sounds like my very early days in recruitment. And I remember being at Page actually early days in Josh Scott Bold. Remember Josh? I like Jos, really strong operator. If people went on the phone, he'd walk around and physically dial the phone for

Robert Half KPIs And Work Rate

SPEAKER_01 6:15

them, you know.

SPEAKER_02 6:15

I happened to be so many times with Jos.

SPEAKER_01 6:19

Made you get on the phone. He did.

SPEAKER_02 6:21

It was really scary because he used to walk around that little Bluetooth thing.

SPEAKER_01 6:24

He did, before Bluetooth was a thing. I guess from a cultural perspective, so the difference between those two, and you you have obviously worked at a few different companies. Tell me about the different cultures, like you know, that go deeper than just the I guess the day-to-day operational stuff. Like, how did it feel to be in a business like Paige and Half? Because I mean, I remember the early Page days, and it respectfully it felt like uh I loved it. It was just a vibe, right? And um I've been worked at other companies, didn't feel like that again. And so I'm just wondering how you felt doing these different companies post then.

SPEAKER_02 6:53

I think the culture at Page was was from what I felt was you you had to really earn your respect when you came in there, and that's not just through getting on the phone, but you you know, you had to be part of the culture, and what I mean by that is you had to be a good bloke.

SPEAKER_01 7:11

Is that why you used to linger around our desk all the time?

SPEAKER_02 7:13

I just wanted to be in sales, yeah. Being a good person, having good banter in the office, but knowing when to pick up the phone and start dialing, I think was really, really important there. Um and and they they really valued that. And I think people would would notice that. Um there was they'd start coming over to you if you if you were you know doing well, they start talking about career progression and telling you what you know your career could look like in a couple of years, and and then you'd start getting invited to like different lunches. And I kind of like that because you sort of knew where you stood. Yeah. Um a little bit different at Robert Half, for example. You know, you could be shit at recruitment there, and you know, you still, you know, get invited to stuff, and you know, the it was it wasn't like an atmosphere where you felt like you had to really prove yourself. Whereas Michael Page, it was everything was at a different standard. So I'll say Robert Half didn't have standards, they were you know very high, but I think the culture was different in the way that Michael Page was you knew where you stood at everyone.

SPEAKER_01 8:18

There was a lot of focus on your internal brand perception. That's right. Yeah. So you obviously when you first came to Paige, you were doing temp straight away, right? Um and and again, you stayed in that accounting and finance niche, kind of, you know, was that deliberate? Did you kind of you s you kind of landed there and so you just decided that's where I am now?

SPEAKER_02 8:36

Pretty much, yeah. I mean I did did pretty well in that space. Um and yeah, I I just figured stay here, build yourself up in an in in you know in that market, become an expert, and you know, this is a job that will get easier over time. Yeah. So that's kind of my my thinking behind it. Um still doing accounting and finance now. It's very different now. It's more transactional. There's there's less onus on human connection. Um the Brisbane market is different now too, because not everyone is from you know, from Brisbane. So you don't have that little network where, oh, I know this guy from school, I can just call him and you know, we'll get work on. Uh, there's a lot more people moving from in you know overseas, but also Melbourne and Sydney to to to live in Brisbane. They don't have these connections. And so it's really about the right level of human connection, talking to your clients properly, taking the time to understand the business. Um but it is very transactional these days as well. So if you if you're not if you're not going out meeting clients or talking to people, then it's really hard.

SPEAKER_01 9:44

What do you think is the hardest part of the job early days that you know when you're in the early days of Page, um that you know that you don't really talk about that we can talk about on here.

SPEAKER_02 9:54

The hardest part uh for me, I I think going out and and and doing enough work because you were siloed at Michael Page into you know, you are north side only doing temp. Um and so it was really difficult when you got a lead from a candidate who was like on the south side, you're like, I've got to give this to John Z or you know or someone. Um that that was really, really hard because I think as a recruiter for me, I'm I'm very instinctive. So if I pick up a lead, I'm gonna chase it straight away. Yeah. Um that was hard because when you'd pass a lead to somebody and they weren't as passionate about it, you would be like, fuck, I'll do it. This is going to waste. Yeah. Creating your own brand was was really difficult because you were so siloed into a market. Do you remember your first placement? Bradham's

Niche Focus And Early Career Friction

SPEAKER_02 10:40

Windows and Doors. Right. I remember really clearly. Um Sean Cronin was just standing over me the whole time, telling me what to do. Probably would not have happened uh if he wasn't there. But um, yeah, it was awesome.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

That's your early days. And now Talk me through from your your kind of transition from you know working in those big environments to doing this for yourself. Because you kind of started with renegade consulting, I believe. Talk me through that transition and that journey.

SPEAKER_02 11:04

Renegade consulting for me, or just going out of my own, was you know, me having a kid. Um, that was just me not wanting to work the 12-hour days anymore. Um I think when you work in an agency and you get to you know manager level and you there's a lot of boring stuff that you do. You know, you go, you go to a meeting and you you've got to spend an hour talking about the Christmas party, everyone's behavioural expectations. Um you and I never got in trouble for that.

SPEAKER_03 11:34

No, never.

SPEAKER_02 11:35

And then there's you know, talking about planning BD days, and you know, sometimes you'd have to go, you know, kitchen etiquette, and uh it's really like you're just like far out. When do I get a chance to to bill? Um I think having my son was like, okay, I have to go out and just do something that gives me the flexibility and you know, still pays me really well so I can you know maintain my lifestyle. So that that was really the the the reason I started Renegade. Um and I always thought to myself maybe I'd go back to an agency because I really enjoy the culture and and just being around people. You get such a good buzz um on the floor. Um but it you know the weird thing about it is I've just loved being out of my own.

SPEAKER_01 12:23

Let's talk about that because uh we joked before this podcast, like some of the things we used to do early days, and we used to have this thing called the Page Challenge where every month we'd do different events and see who could be on the champion of all the different events like go-karting. And I was obviously the champion two two years in a row. You were, yes, yeah. But there's a culture you can create there with lots of people and lots of people at the same phases of their career. How did you find that transition to being on your own, right? Because you were always a big culture guy. So that's something I was curious to understand.

SPEAKER_02 12:53

I really missed that part. Um, but again, if you if you think about that, that's that wasn't done by directors at Michael Page, right? That was done by guys like you and Dave, um, who who started this thing, and then you got everyone in the office interested in it. And you guys were were really the ones that that started that stuff. So I I I took that, I guess, and you know, I'm lucky that I've I've lived in Brisbane my whole life. Um, I've got a good group of mates here, and so I just kind of do all that stuff with them now, you know. Uh we've got we've got this challenge called the Greatest Athlete Challenge. Um and we we do it every week. You nominate someone every week, and it's their challenge. So they pick the challenge. That's awesome. Um yeah, it's it's it's it's it's very much uh off the back of what we used to do. Yeah, yeah. I pick ping pong all the time.

SPEAKER_01 13:43

Yeah, because you you won that.

SPEAKER_02 13:44

There's not a lot of other things I'm that good at.

SPEAKER_01 13:47

So also you went from consultant to leadership in those big companies as well, so you started to see the the difference there, and then you got out on your own. And then you've now launched or maybe it's how long has humanistics took. Two years. So oh right. So talk talk to me a bit about that and and because that's not comp pure recruitment.

SPEAKER_02 14:04

No, no, it's uh it's a decision I made. Renegade consulting was going was going great. It was something that I thought, all right, well I'll just keep I'll keep doing this forever if I have to. You know, making good placements, going on meetings, running my own ship was great. Um I knew Steve and James, um, two of my partners, uh, for for a for a while. So James actually used to work for me at Michael Page. Um we hired him as an associate consultant. Um he was terrible.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

He was an associate consultant. You put associate next to anything, it's like you're not quite there yet.

SPEAKER_02 14:43

Great blog, great background, you know, HR degree. Always wanted to get into HR. So um someone I got on with really, really well and you know, decided to partner up with later on in my career. Uh his

Going Solo For Flexibility

SPEAKER_02 14:55

dad, Steve, um he was a founder of like another HR consulting firm. Right. Um and he'd built it up to sale, sold it, and was kind of looking for his next project. Um he's someone with a lot of experience. Um, and then when I sort of met both of them, he was saying, Well, I've always wanted to have recruitment in the next consulting business I do because every time I go to a meeting, there's a recruitment need there. And so it's really important that we have that, in particular within HR or finance, was sort of where he was he was thinking. So I I you know I thought about that and I was like, oh yeah, this could work really well because on my end, a lot of the business development I do, some businesses need that consulting uh on the HR side or on the executive side. So it married up really nicely. So are you still on the phones? Because there's every day.

SPEAKER_01 15:44

You were always on the phone. Every day you're just always hammering it. Love it. So I haven't lost the hunger there for that.

SPEAKER_02 15:48

No, no, I love it. Yeah, I mean, you've got things like Lusher now as well, which are just like, oh, this is great. Yeah. You just pick up the phone to everyone now, and it's it's awesome. So yeah, I I still love picking up the phone.

SPEAKER_01 15:59

And was there a different kind of a significant moment from being in recruitment agencies to going, this is why I'm uh you know why I'm gonna go out on my own? And then the second follow-up question to that is a moment from renegade to going, I want to do something that goes beyond pure recruitment.

SPEAKER_02 16:14

The moment I I I knew I wanted to go out on my own was um I think when I was at six degrees, um I was there to set up their accounting and finance team, and you know, being honest, I was going through, you know, marriage breakup, all that stuff. I was thinking like, this just feels like an agency. I feel like I need to go do something by myself. So so the the thing that really pushed me to go out of my own was having a son, going through you know a few changes in my life and saying, well, what's a better way that I can do this where I feel like I'm fully in control? Um that was the answer. Um, and then doing reasonably well at at Renegade and having my own business, I was pretty bored. Yeah, you know, there there were some days where I was just like doing it from my couch, you know, just watching Ted Lasso in the background and leadership 101. Yeah, it was just pretty grim for a while. Um and so I just wanted some culture back. So when I spoke to James and Steve about it, um we decided to to do it properly. Uh so we've got an office in Spring Hill now, the ping-pong table's in there, you know, the office is set up really well, and it's a great vibe, you know, when when we're all together in the office. Um, I still work from home quite a bit, but there is still it's a really good happy medium there, too.

SPEAKER_01 17:33

16 years in recruitment? Hey, that's a lot. That was how long I was in recruitment before I ultimately left it. Like, and I I hear when I was seeing you today, I was like, oh, I remember you from when we worked together, not who you are now. So you had a really good career in recruitment. Like, what's some advice you give to somebody about um who's maybe early on in their career, um, how to make sure they keep advancing, just something you give to them. Like the advice I used to give you.

SPEAKER_02 17:59

For me, I think people put a lot of onus because you you start the the best place to start, I think, in recruitment is at one of the big agencies because the training is so good. Um, but I think the mistake you can make in a big agency is you put too much onus on well, I'm an associate consultant, I need to be a consultant because that makes a difference. And then I'll be a senior, and then I'll be a manager. And I feel like none of that really makes a difference in the grand scheme of things. What you need to be doing is just getting better at your own craft uh and improving your your your own skill. Uh, and if you're doing that, all that stuff's gonna take care of itself. Um so yeah, I would say don't compare yourself to you know what other people are.

SPEAKER_01 18:39

It's very hard though. Like we've obviously both been in those environments, and you always think the next role is when I want to be happy. That's the role I'm gonna feel like I've achieved. You never do, you're just constantly looking for something else, something else.

SPEAKER_02 18:50

Nothing changes until you're uh like director, right? You just have more meetings, but you're still expected

Advice And Regrets From The Job

SPEAKER_02 18:55

to be.

SPEAKER_01 18:56

You're just doing a slightly bigger job with more people different regions, but yeah, it's the same.

SPEAKER_02 19:00

Yeah, I'm uh so that that's probably the biggest thing. And I think you have to enjoy it. So if you're enjoying picking up the phone, you know, getting meetings and and and billing, then all the other stuff doesn't really matter. Just just enjoy that part, get better at that part, yeah. Um, and you never know where your career's gonna take you.

SPEAKER_00 19:19

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SPEAKER_01 20:23

I'm gonna just throw this in there because Serge always says, be careful of us in this question because we don't but do you have any kind of conf actual confessions? Like anything that you look back on your career and go, that was a mistake. I've got a few. Um I'm sure we all have it. What sort of confessions are we talking about? Well, you can say, maybe say a couple, then Serge can choose one and cut the other. Um but yeah, so anything you look back on, maybe from a pure recruitment perspective, things that you do differently if you could re redo aspects of your career.

SPEAKER_02 20:47

Yeah, I mean a few. And we'll come back to that if we need. One of the biggest mistakes I made in my career was um I would always expect things to happen for me when I knew I'd done my best. So um I remember a while ago, uh we were in page personnel, and I was at at that time to get promoted to senior consultant, you had to bill 100k over a rolling three-month period, uh, and your KPIs had to be, you know, perfect. Yeah, right. And so I remember billing the 100k over a rolling three-month period and not realizing I'd done that, and then being like, shit, I've actually just done this, and then being like, give me a promotion. And they were like, but your KPIs weren't good. And I was like, well, I've got until tomorrow. Just give me a sec, I'll just quickly go.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

I remember that. I thought you would do like an 18-hour day or so. Let me just adjust that really quickly on the system.

SPEAKER_02 21:47

I had so much pressure on myself to be like, you know, a five grand pay rise, and this job title matters so much that you just I just kind of lost my way in terms of what I was doing right. So I really regret that. Um Um and I mean do you want another one? Or if you want to throw them out.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

I love how you just throw your stories in.

SPEAKER_02 22:06

So mate, if there's any more. Hopefully it doesn't offend them, but I I definitely regret taking that role with six degrees instead of going out by myself. So I think everything that was happening to me on a personal level at that point definitely impacted how much commitment I had to it. It's fair, mate, it happens. Yeah, there's that. I felt really bad about that with them.

SPEAKER_01 22:26

So they're all good operators over there and they'd get it, wouldn't they? Tell me about like relationships that you've built over time. Because uh the thing I always used to remember with you is that clients just loved you and your candidates loved you. And I I think it's because you're obviously a very personal guy, but is there any science behind your approach and how you do it? Do you have consistent ways of checking in, or is it just I'm just me? No, tell me a bit about that and how your relationships have evolved with these people over time.

SPEAKER_02 22:50

I I think for me I've always enjoyed hearing people's stories and and talking to them about who they are and and what they do outside of of you know their jobs. And you know, accounting is not the most fun subject to talk about. So I think if you can get people out of that zone and talk about something they're actually passionate about and see something that, you know, see something that lights up in them. And I I enjoy that. Uh I I still did. I went to a client meeting yesterday and the question I asked my client was, well, what do you what do you do outside of this? That was it. It was really simple. And suddenly he started talking about restaurants that he likes and that he's buying a new house and all this type of stuff. And the conversation just really improved because we were connecting properly. And he felt like, oh wow, I can talk to Rav about all this stuff. Yeah. And then suddenly, the next time you talk to them, you got all this info you can talk to them about. So it's a really cool thing to just be able to bond with people like that.

SPEAKER_01 23:47

You're obviously in a niche market. Now you stayed there. Um Do you feel that ability to really niche down is is helped, or do you think it's really the core your core skills of being a good person talking about different things? And I can obviously talk about the the the specialization. Like, is it one or the other, or is it a bit of both?

SPEAKER_02 24:05

It it's probably a bit of both, I think. Um You know, what when I when I've spoken to like I do more exact level roles, um it's harder to get a lot of info out of some of these people because they're just so like they do not want to warm up, they just want to stay professional. Um whereas you know, when you're talking to someone who's earning like 80 to 100k, they'll tell you everything. Um so yeah, no, I I don't think it's my market. I think um I try to do that with everybody. Sometimes it doesn't work.

SPEAKER_01 24:39

Yep. Fair enough. Best piece of advice you've got in your recruitment career stick to ping pong.

SPEAKER_02 24:46

Unfortunately, I have to say that it was from Joss, um, who was extremely you know, I think when he started Michael Page, he he really like he got on my back a lot. Um but he was really good for me, I think.

SPEAKER_01 24:59

He's a great operator, but he got on a lot of people's nerves. Yes, joking, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 25:04

He would always just tell me to stay consistent. Um and and we sort of narrowed things down to what I would need to do in a day. And if I did all those things, I would just be consistent and I would build money, and no matter what it happened, if I did that every single day, everything would work out. So running my own business, that really helped me because now every day I'm like, okay, I need to do these three things. If I do these three things, yes, I'll pick up work. May not feel it, but most likely I will. It's gonna

Leadership Boundaries And Culture

SPEAKER_02 25:35

work out. If it just keeps rolling that way, I'll be okay.

SPEAKER_01 25:38

I want to talk to you a little bit about leadership, right? Because um I've obviously observed you going through the you know your career and going to more senior roles. What was the biggest kind of change that you saw from firstly is it like a consultant level to a leader? Um tell me some of the things you kind of weren't ready for necessarily, and what kind of what did you learn in those leadership roles?

SPEAKER_02 26:00

I probably wasn't ready for um how how much you would actually care about some some people, and I think you know, the first leadership role I had with, especially with Paige, I was like, Well, I really like my team. And when some of them weren't doing well, and you would get the tap on the shoulder from Rob to be like, what is this guy doing? You need to get rid of him or or have that tough conversation.

SPEAKER_01 26:23

Rob never he never said it like that.

SPEAKER_02 26:25

Not like that, no, yeah. But I I really struggled with that because I I think I humanised my team too much and I I I probably went in too much and and really liked them. Um so that was really, really tough initially when you had to have those difficult conversations with people and say, well, maybe this isn't for you.

SPEAKER_01 26:42

So does that mean then you have to like have not an emotional connection with your team to perform in those environments?

SPEAKER_02 26:49

Kind of.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:50

I mean, I think you just have to keep it really professional. You can still connect with them in in some ways, but you really have to have a line.

SPEAKER_03 26:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:58

Um, and I think what I did was make them understand that as well. Yeah to be like, look, I like you as a human, but you need to know that when you're in here, we're not doing this. You're you're on the phone, this is your expectation.

SPEAKER_03 27:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:14

Outside, good day or bad day, doesn't matter, we can still have a conversation, we still have a beer, it's all good. We don't need to talk about work. But in here, you need to put in your best effort.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

Like when I was leading teams, I'd always look at okay, this is the bit that they need to do, this is the bit that I need to do, and you know, I'd always look at capability uplift, training, things that I can work on. They need to make sure they're learning about their market, doing the activity, those kind of things. Do you have any ways of operating that that you would like when leading teams, or um was it just instinct? Because I kind of always felt like you know, instinctively you're you're a good leader of people. People follow you, so therefore you're a good leader, or did you have a real approach that you took?

SPEAKER_02 27:50

The only real approach I had was lead by example. And I could see my team, you know, if I had an off day, a lot of the time they would have an off day too. Um we used to have this little basketball hoop when I went back to Paige. Um Could you reach it? Back corner. Yeah, it was that's quite good. And we used to have these like basketball breaks. Me and my my team are this really cool young team of guys. Um, we just shoot hoops for a while sometimes.

SPEAKER_03 28:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:15

And if I was too distracted or I was having a bad day, you know, there was too much fun. Obviously, I was always guilty of of that side, right? Um, and you can see that rub rubbed off on the team. Whereas when I was on the phone, leading by example, making making calls, getting meetings, you could see them really lock in as well. So leading by example is probably the the the first part. Can't expect them to do stuff that I'm not doing. Um and the other part was just being accessible. Um, you're not an idiot for asking this question. Just just talk to me.

SPEAKER_01 28:49

It's that kind of safe psychological safety kind of thing, like making you feel like they can ask those questions. Something I do remember about you, and I'm hoping you don't mind me sharing, is you were always a big advocate for culture. I remember you and Damo Pilot were always leading the way on culture. Um, and one time we did this BD day where you dressed up as Scary Spice. I don't know if you remember, and you you were running around the office in the leopard print leotard. Is that something you bring into your current business? That kind of just focus on the culture. I know you talked about ping pong and stuff, but it was always a huge thing to keep the culture going. And uh it felt like it was just natural to you. Is it something you think about?

SPEAKER_02 29:26

It's something I really miss. Uh not wearing the leotard, but uh the the culture side I really miss uh you know having that environment to do that in. Um I mean,

AI Tools Plus The Human Edge

SPEAKER_02 29:35

my business because half of it's HR consulting.

SPEAKER_01 29:37

So tell me about the future then. I want to kind of get get back to you know, humanistics, what you're doing. Tell me a bit about your business. Like, you know, how how's that going? Um, because we kind of touched on a bit of the HR consulting side, but tell me a bit about what the future looks like in 2026 and 2027 for you guys.

SPEAKER_02 29:52

Uh well we we really focus on that kind of small to medium-sized business. Um, and and that's kind of where we can get both sides of the business involved. So uh we work with a lot of startups uh and and we put that kind of HR framework in for them, and then from there we we build out the talent. And so that's where I come in and and and you know, we'll say this is where we've got to recruit first, and really help these owners build teams. Um, and that stuff's really meaningful for me because I feel like I'm making a really good impact uh instead of just being transactional. Um so I I enjoy that part a lot, and that's where we really, really focus on, and I think we'll we'll continue doing that. I mean, there's so much happening with AI now. Um we've we've started building James is gonna kill me for saying it, um, but we've started building uh like an AI platform um internally just to help um us and and and also clients as well that that will have both recruitment and HR capability. Um so that that's kind of what the future holds at the moment is is kind of pushing that.

SPEAKER_01 30:53

AI is obviously everywhere, we're all talking about it, we're all using it in some capacity. How do you see AI in in the recruitment side? Like how do you use it at the moment?

SPEAKER_02 31:01

To me, when AI, okay, the because you know how much I hate admin, right? Would always get in trouble for not doing my admin. This is it. This is the the ticket out of admin. Um it I think the recruitment administration side is it's gonna have a huge impact on. I don't think fully AI recruitment tools are enough for businesses to rely on because you need context. Um so you can see your resume, you can see how they compare to you know your PD, you can score a resume, all that stuff you can do through AI. But you need context, and that's where recruiters come in, that's where experts come in, because you need to have those detailed conversations with candidates, you need to understand the market really well, and so human connection or human touch on those things is is that kind of last bit of finesse that's really important.

SPEAKER_01 31:52

I was gonna say exactly that. I've always maintained that whilst there's still interviews and people doing roles, there'll always be a place for recruitment, it won't get replaced in terms of how we we do it. The the human element of recruitment, is there anything that you know you think is really important? I know it's all important in the recruitment process, but like face-to-face interviews, or can it be done over teams? You know, is there anything that you look at and go, we can't sacrifice that part with with recruitment for it to be.

SPEAKER_02 32:18

I think you you've got to know your your candidates properly before you put them forward to a role. Um, and I think the mistake we make in our market right now is because things are moving so quickly, like you pick up a role, a client will say, I need this now. And so you you cut corners and that's where things start to go wrong. You might work once or twice, and then you might get into this habit of going, Well, I can just cut corners this time, this time, this time. And when something really matters, if you don't have the right connection with your candidate, if you haven't taken the time to meet them face to face, buy them a coffee, same thing goes for your client. If you haven't connected with them properly, I I think you're not gonna, you know, be successful because you miss things. Whether it's a characteristic, maybe it's a personality trait, you need to have all that, those little you know, intricate details of your candidates and clients to properly match someone with their business.

SPEAKER_01 33:13

Look, I think you're right. I was talking to someone the other week and uh they were saying, you know, thinking about launching an agency and saying that one of the things that I do is I make sure I meet everyone face to face. And I was that thinking, shouldn't everyone do that? And maybe it's not the case so much anymore. Maybe there's a lot that's done virtually.

SPEAKER_02 33:27

I I see a lot of teams interviews happening. Uh video screening now is a is a really big thing. So people will watch um a video and they'll let their AI tool analyse the person's tone and the vocab that they use and they'll make a decision based on that. But I don't think you can look, yes, I think you should meet everyone, and the pure reason you should meet everyone is because of the feeling you get when you meet somebody. You can't do that on Teams, you can't do that anywhere else. So that's really important. You you you know how someone is based on the first few seconds, right? And and and and being in their presence.

SPEAKER_01 34:06

It's really important. Keep going back to it, but Michael Page days when we'd go through the interview process, I always used to throw random curveball, random questions in. We used to talk about it being mental agility, the ability to react and think on the spot. And I remember Josh Scodbold always used to ask why are manhole covers around? And um people would give different reasons, and one one girl was like, so the turtle, ninja turtles can get in there. And he loved it. And I used to think from there, I thought, well, I'm gonna ask some crazy questions in there just just to mix it up and see how people can actually respond. Do you do anything like that in your hiring nowadays?

SPEAKER_02 34:37

I do when it's the right type of role. Um, like I wouldn't ask a financial accountant that question. Uh, but if I'm talking to an analyst uh or or someone who builds financial models or anything like that, yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_03 34:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:51

Um I I got one question off Josh actually, uh, which was how many golf balls can you fit in an 838 or 8380 or something? Yeah. And and you'd be like, tell me. And it'd be interesting to see how a candidate you know thinks and and and what steps they take to giving you that answer. Another question I ask is, how do you tie your laces in the morning? Really? And people will be like, What? But it's a really interesting process, right? Because if you had to explain it, you wouldn't know.

SPEAKER_01 35:19

Actually, now that I think about it, what what's some got any really interesting kind of interviews? You don't candidate interviews, like any really legendary ones that stand out. Um and the reason I I remember one, and I won't say where it was or who it was, but as I was talking to them, an ant crawled out from their shirt up their face, and they just went and killed it. And I remember writing in my notes highly dynamic candidate who can kill things on the spot. But any kind of weird stories or even weird placements or things that kind of stand out in your career that you know is kind of fun.

SPEAKER_02 35:49

I interviewed this candidate once and I could smell that she had been drinking because she her answers were great, she was doing really, really well. So I was like, maybe just her perfume or something, right? So um I actually had a temporal for her, which I brought her in for in the morning, and I'd sent her to the client interview at like one o'clock that day. So I met her at like 8:30, one o'clock, she had an interview, it was really, really quick. Okay. My client calls me at one o'clock. It's like, you need to come get your candidate.

SPEAKER_01 36:21

Oh, no way.

SPEAKER_02 36:22

No, like, well, she's drunk. I was like, hmm.

unknown 36:26

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 36:27

I was right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:28

She must have just had a big session. Or she finished the candidate interview and just went to the pub for a bit. Maybe. Assuming she didn't get the role. She did not, yeah. No. I had to carry her out and put her in a cab. Happy days. Um, mate.

Where To Find Rav

SPEAKER_01 36:40

Great to catch up and reminisce. Thanks, mate. If anybody wants to find you, if clients want to find you, if candidates want to find you, how do they how do they go about it?

SPEAKER_02 36:46

Please, I'm I'm on LinkedIn. Reach out.

SPEAKER_01 36:48

Love it. Rav. Pleasure, mate. As always, haven't seen you for a few years, but it felt like no time passed at all. Great to see you, buddy. Thanks for having me, mate.