Max Kozin | The Blue Collar Recruiter Who Bet on Himself | COAR S3 E3

He landed his first deal within days of launching Trade Plus Recruitment. No inherited database. No clients waiting. No one telling him what to do next.

We sit down with Max Kozin to talk through the part nobody glamorises: payroll exposure, insurance, health and safety compliance, and the mental load of starting a blue-collar recruitment agency from scratch.

We get into the systems he built to move fast. Max uses Loxo to send candidates a structured pre-screening form that updates his database automatically, so when a client needs carpenters tomorrow, he can sort by tickets, location, and availability in minutes. If you've ever tried to phone-screen hundreds of applicants, you'll understand why this changes everything for labour hire.

We also dig into niche strategy and BD. Max breaks down how his niche tightened over time, why "carpentry" alone is still too broad, and why focusing on self-delivering builders makes the desk more profitable. He shares how he approaches market mapping, uses tools like Firmable, and why going interstate made sense once he truly knew his market.

The thread running through all of it: back yourself, build better processes, and make your edge the fact that clients deal directly with the person who cares most.

If you're thinking about starting a recruitment agency, scaling a labour hire desk, or just sharpening your niche, this one's for you. 

Transcript

Meet Max And Trade Plus

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Alright, welcome back to another episode of Confessions of a Recruiter. We're with Max Cozen from Trade Plus Recruitment. Did you think that was possible when you were working for somebody else that like you could pull this off just by yourself? No, no, I didn't. Day one, Trade Plus. Can you remember what that feeling was like? Yeah, it was very daunting. Dude, we're gonna have you on our Hall of Fame, quickest first deal. Happened with them probably the first three days of starting. They self-screen themselves. Pre-screen themselves, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:27

Pre-screen themselves. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 0:29

They fill it all out, they submit it, and then it goes back into Locso and it updates the CRM with their pre-screen. Correct. What was the feedback? That it's uh pretty groundbreaking. So Firstly, Max, thank you for joining us. You're welcome. Thanks for uh inviting me. No worries. Now we've got a little bit to unpack because your journey I think is really interesting. Your industry, um, that your niching, where you where you recruit from, what your background is. So before we get started, um, let's just talk about how long you've been in recruitment. I guess how how how long have you been like on the tools? Uh about eight years. And how many different agencies were you at? Four and then on my fifth one now. Okay. All right. So the industry Trade Plus, um, Trade Plus is your recruitment agency in Melbourne. Pull me up here if I'm wrong, but it's primarily labor hire carpenters.

SPEAKER_02 1:23

That's right. Yep. And it's also perm as well. It's probably a 50-50 split at the moment. Really?

SPEAKER_01 1:27

You're doing 50-50 perm and temp. Awesome. How long have you been running Trade Plus? Uh about four months. Four months. So very fresh. Very fresh. Yeah. I'm sure we've got some interesting stories to unpack in your first four months. So I'm excited to do that. Um, I guess I want to just start with um your four months in business. How are you feeling right now?

SPEAKER_02 1:44

Feeling really good, actually. Uh things are taking off. Um, we've got quite a few clients at the moment, uh, got up to about 15 contractors out, um, had a few perms this month as well. So it all seems to be clicking now.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

We were talking offline just before, and you're running a labor hire blue-collar recruitment agency as a one-man band.

The Real Risks Of Labour Hire

SPEAKER_01 2:05

Did you think that was possible when you were working for somebody else that like you could pull this off just by yourself?

SPEAKER_02 2:11

No, no, I didn't. And um, specifically because of the insurances and the payroll as well, that's the biggest one. Um, but let's say if you've got 15 carpenters, you have to have probably at least a hundred to two hundred grand uh in loans to be able to support that. And that's not including, you know, if the your client doesn't pay on time. So I was very lucky to join up with XRecruiter, where they do take care of a lot of that. Um, otherwise I wouldn't be able to do it.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

We'll plug X recruiter in a moment. Uh that wasn't my intention, but I just find it so fascinating that like um as a labor hire recruiter, um, typically you're kind of stuck on a really good desk that maybe you've spent three, four, five years in your case at Fetch, which is a great, a great business, um, spending five years building up your desk and making good money, and then you kind of get to this point where you either go into leadership. A lot of people don't like that because you typically earn less money, you've got more stress, more responsibility, or um you just keep doing what you're doing. And if you change agencies, then you like you're walking away from this desk you spent five years building, which is no one wants to do that. Um, and then going out on your own, you've got to have, you know, payroll, admin, insurance, all this kind of stuff, which as a blue-collar labor hire recruiter, I can only imagine how limited pathways are available to you. Like, um, so you're at uh Fetch for five years before that, before starting your business, and um, we'll kind of unpack how that journey was in a moment. But um, when you were there, um, did you ever think, oh, there's a lot of you know, obviously you're getting a lot of support at Fetch, they do a lot of the back office kind of stuff and make sure everything runs well. Um, did you ever think you could go out on your own and like run a labour hire business by yourself?

SPEAKER_02 4:06

No, not really too, to be honest. There was a definitely a time uh where I wanted to do it, but again, like the insurances that what you kind of mentioned to me really put a dampener on things. Um but um I'm really glad I made that move now. And now, sort of since I've been doing it for four months, you build up your own processes, you build up your own systems and how you'd like to run things. And um once that's established, it's relatively easy. You kind of fall back into the same as you were in an agency as well.

SPEAKER_01 4:37

Is that hard? Because I think about when I started Vendito 10 years ago, and it's just a perm recruitment business, so a lot less complicated than a uh a labor hire business. Obviously, labor hire business, you got rates, awards, payroll, like you got a whole bunch of complexities that I definitely wouldn't have been able to get my head around if uh I started a labor hire business back then. Mine was just a perm business, but when I like day one getting into my own business, I kind of sat there, looked at my screen, tapped at the desk, and thought, oh, what do I do now? Like, where's there's no process, there's no structure, there's no one telling you what to do. What was that like that for you? Like day one, trade plus, you're sitting at your desk. Can you can you remember what that feeling was like?

SPEAKER_02 5:23

Yeah, it was very daunting. It was um there was so much to get my mind around. And I think when you first start up a business, it's a really good time for you to set up all the processes correctly because you can't really, it's hard to change processes a year down the track. So I remember the first probably first month, I was just scratching my head. I was trying to learn, you know, all the health and safety systems, um, payroll systems, and really understand them in depth so I can actually set up a process with the way that I wanted. And you obviously you do utilize the knowledge that you've gained over the last eight years as well, because you know, Fetch were great at teaching me of how to run things properly. So I had a good understanding of what that looked like. And then I just had to understand what systems I had and then kind of put them together and put my own spin onto it as well. But first month was, yeah, it was uh a lot of long hours just trying to figure things out.

SPEAKER_01 6:18

Yeah, gotcha. What what were some of the processes where you used to do one way and then starting your

Automating Candidate Pre-Screening In LOXO

SPEAKER_01 6:25

business, you thought, you know what, I'm gonna do it this way. If I feel like this is the right way, the smarter way, the quicker way to do this. Like, have you got a few examples?

SPEAKER_02 6:33

I utilize a system called Luxo, and what I've done is I've built out a form where if a carbon cell or any type of tradesperson applies to me, they get an email and they fill it out and it auto-updates my database. So what that means is that now that if I get a pla like a job called in for the next day, I can go through that job. I can look at everyone who's available straight away and has the right tickets in the right area. That's awesome. Yeah, it made it made things a lot, a lot quicker. And I tried to do that for a long time with Bullhorn, but um bullhorn being quite a big legacy um CRM, it was very, very difficult to change anything. I remember I tried to bring in a um a copy placement function that they had, and it took me about six months of going back and forth with them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:26

So you've got your job, you post an ad, applicants come in, 50 people apply for your job. Let's say it's Carpenter and Victoria paying 70 bucks an hour. It sent they put their resume in and then it auto-sends them an email with a form to fill out, and it's essentially a screening, like a screening. They self-screen themselves. Pre-screen themselves, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:48

Pre-screen themselves.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

They fill it all out, they submit it, and then it goes back into LOXO and it and it updates the CRM with their pre-screening.

SPEAKER_02 7:56

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 7:56

That's two seconds, right?

SPEAKER_00 7:58

What? How did you think of that?

SPEAKER_02 7:59

Again, just looking at all the processes and um being in recruitment, I understand where the pitfalls are. And I've done it for eight years now, so I can sort of see that that is um, you know, speaking to a hundred candidates. Sometimes if I get a laboring job to 500 applicants, you know, there's no way I can go through and speak to all of them. Um, but it's something that I've always had in mind. And I always tried to optimize processes. So even from my job at Fetch, I wanted to bring this on board, but there was just no ability to do that. So I was when I found out that you could do this, I was very happy and it's made things a lot easier for myself.

SPEAKER_01 8:33

That's awesome. Like, how did you did you just think of that one day? Did you hear it from somewhere? Like, how did you know to like intuitively get people to screen themselves?

SPEAKER_02 8:43

So I did a uh programming course last year for about six months. So I I learned how to kind of do low-level software development. So when I looked at LOXO, I just had a feeling, I was like, there's there's got to be a way you can do this. Uh, and reached out, you know, I got told that we can't do that. There's only the candidate registration form, and that's it. But then I found the form and I was like, this kind of does everything. So then I kind of asked again and then found the right answer.

SPEAKER_01 9:12

Why aren't we rolling this out to all the ex have you IP'd this or But I I have I have spoken to a few uh ex-recruiter people about it.

SPEAKER_02 9:20

So have you have you shown them it? What what was the feedback? That it's uh pretty groundbreaking. So Dude, that's awesome. Yeah, I've showed it to Taryn, uh, so I'm pretty sure she's rolling it out to everyone.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

So what a great idea. Well, there you go. If uh Trade Plus doesn't work out, you can be like you can be like all of those AI automation experts in recruitment and help people with their processes. Okay, cool. So um that's a really interesting case study around starting your business and then being able to do what you feel is the the best thing to do. So um typically I find it interesting uh learning about the experience of someone's you know, first month, second month, was it what they expected, this type of thing. Starting

Starting From Zero Without Fake Ads

SPEAKER_01 10:00

a blue-collar labor hire business with essentially no one in your database and no clients. Like, what do you what do you do first? Do you do you just like put up a fake job ad, carpenter, you get a bunch of people apply, you kind of get some leads from that, then you do some BD and say you got people like I've never really understood starting a labor hire business from scratch. Like, what do you focus on first? Do you focus on the clients or do you focus on getting the candidates? I never like putting up fake job ads.

SPEAKER_02 10:32

Uh I'm not saying you do not have to do that. No, no, no, no. Yeah, that's just not my part of part of my process. So personally, um, you know, I've got a pretty specialized niche that I know pretty much inside and out. So it's going to different clients in that niche and being able to show your expertise very quickly. And I think that's why it's important to have a niche in the first place. If you work with some of the big, you know, big builders in that niche, you just have to name drop them. And, you know, I know the site manager, I know this, I've worked with this, I work with similar uh clients to yourself. Just started this out. Is this something you're looking to do? And then hopefully pick up a job and then post an ad and go from there.

SPEAKER_01 11:13

Okay, so you go for the clients first. Uh, once you get some engagement, post the ad and then see how you can fill the role. Yes, that's correct. Gotcha. Okay. So what was like the BD strategy then? Because I can only imagine waking up, having your coffee, sitting there with an empty database of no candidates, no clients, not getting any um not getting any like income essentially. Um so so what's it like? Well, like what's the first thing do you do? Do you just like market map? Do you go to all the the people that you wish you did business with when you were at fetch that you never did? And so you try and you know pick some low-lying fruit. Like what what is the process to try and get some clients?

SPEAKER_02 11:52

Yeah, definitely market map first. Um and I used um there's a company called Firmable. Yes. So I've used them quite a bit. So uh that you can be quite uh selective with um the type of a business they want you want to find. Find the right ones, having a look at them online, seeing sort of if they uh look like the type of business you want to work with, and then reaching out to them after that. But again, it's sort of why I think it's important to have your niche. And then you can sort of speak to your experience very quickly in that niche because you have, you know, six years experience or five years experience in that. So you become uh you come across a lot more like an expert as opposed to just going in cold and completely um unprepared.

SPEAKER_01 12:35

Was there any method to your madness with your niche? Like walk me through that. Because I I've actually had a conversation with a bunch of recruiters recently about their niche. Um, and to be honest, like it seems like some people don't understand what a niche is. Um so they'll they'll niche in certain um how do I how would I put it? Like they would say that their niche is sales, um, which in my opinion is it not a niche. No, sales is uh a broad term that can be in any industry. Um so sometimes I'll get people say, Oh, I I niche in sales recruitment, but unfortunately I I just I can't figure out how you niche there. It's like you've got a niche in like either a product or something tangible that you can like replicate. So um talk to me about like your niche, like where did you start initially recruiting for, and then did it like evolve over time and iterate, and you got further and further into a certain direction of a niche, or was it just

Finding A Niche Within Carpentry

SPEAKER_01 13:40

did you always know what you're doing from day one, or like how did that evolve for you?

SPEAKER_02 13:43

So when I first started at Fetch, I just did carpentry and I was doing it across commercial, uh cabinet making and residential as well. And I think that was something that actually held me back for the first six months because I was spread too thin. Um then I've just had probably a bit more success in commercial and residential, and it's something that I actually enjoyed more as well. Like I I love construction, I love having a look at a nice architectural home, I like the big commercial projects as well. So I was kind of drawn to it uh as well. So once I got those two, we I think we got another person on board and I passed off Kevin Amazing straight away. Um and then I just kind of you know, it's sort of you have more success in certain areas. But the thing I I like to do as well is that I always read up on the budgets, I always look at where you know where the next potential market is. And um, I always evaluate my desk and I always think about this is how much time I'm spending doing this, is it actually worthwhile? And where is the next construction gonna go? How is you know, how are things in Australia get built? So I always try to think about that, and then that's how I sort of stumbled into, you know, minor commercial works is probably my my strongest one, modular and high-end.

SPEAKER_01 15:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

They're all very intensive in labor, uh, all get delivered generally by the same builder as opposed to get subcontracted out. So as you spend your time in like construction, you kind of see what the niches are and they start to appear, and then you just need to go more and more in depth.

SPEAKER_01 15:20

I love that. So it it's funny that you say that because when you when you say carpenters, you would think that that's a niche. But then you said cabinetry, commercial, and what was the other one? High-end residential. High end residential. But you were spread too thin. I would have felt like that's like not a big market. Is that a huge market? It is a huge market, yep. Wow. Okay. So I guess you were you were doing a little bit of each. And then you started. I guess did you start focusing on like what you had more of an interest in? Because I guess you would have come across a bit more passionate, a bit more interested, bit more knowledgeable, and that's like the direction that you just kind of drifted to. Exactly. Yep. Light commercial, is that how you put it? Light commercial.

SPEAKER_02 15:56

Uh minor commercial. Minor commercial. So like maintenance, um any fed out under one million dollars, um, smaller fed out projects.

SPEAKER_01 16:04

That's a crazy niche within a niche, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 16:06

Yeah. And um and again, it's just understanding what your market is. So for me, once you look at commercial, for example, uh, a lot of the builders they actually subcontract all their workout. And then when you go to the subcontractor, they have pretty tight margins that they're working with already. So there's not really enough uh for you to come into. So what I try to find is someone who self-delivers. So for me, a company that has anywhere between 20 to 80 employees is like the perfect niche, someone who self-delivers. And that th those were the criteria that I set for myself to focus on. And it so happens to be that most of them are in the minor commercial space.

SPEAKER_01 16:44

Cool. How do you how do you find that? Like, how do you find that info? Like you said, firmable before. That's like contact numbers. Do you get to do you do you do any research through firmable? Like, is it that good or is it just like a contact finder?

SPEAKER_02 16:57

It can be quite good. So, um, but most of the time, honestly, it's just trial and error. Just looking at different companies, speaking to different candidates in the marketplace as well, uh, talking to builders who they use as subcontractors. So it's

Going Interstate Without Losing Focus

SPEAKER_02 17:10

just spending your time in the market will kind of eventually show you the niche.

SPEAKER_01 17:14

The next thing I'm interested in is geography. Um Labor Hire is notoriously geography bound. Like every Labour hire recruiter I know, like does a certain geography either in the north side or the south side or that side or this area, that type of thing. Because I don't know, maybe that just what makes the most sense for getting all the candidates. You're not like that. No, no, I do across states. Yeah, so what like what what are you doing there? Like, give give me a bit of an idea on you're recruiting in Melbourne, you're up on the Goldie doing client visits. Do you recruit in Melbourne, like though? Or okay, so you recruit in Melbourne, Queensland, anything New South Wales? No, South Australia. South Australia? Okay, so talk to me about why you're going interstate because wouldn't that technically be like spreading yourself thin?

SPEAKER_02 18:04

Once I you understand your niche inside and out. So um for myself, I've probably placed around 2,000 carpenters. So carpenters is something that I know inside and out. The easiest way to um bring on new clients if your market is not as busy is going interstate. So I've s I saw, you know, in the last two years, South Australia has had massive growth. Brisbane has had massive growth as well. There's a lot of demand here, and I've got the knowledge to kind of feel that demand. Um it's easier to learn new suburbs than learn a new industry, is what I think.

SPEAKER_01 18:40

Okay, I like that. That's gonna be the tagline for this podcast. It's easier to learn a new suburb than learn a new industry. How do you do like client visits, health and safety, all that kind of stuff?

SPEAKER_02 18:50

Health and safety you can generally do over the phone, but I do like to visit. So, for example, you know, I'm in Brisbane and Gold Coast uh for this week. Uh just going out, meeting clients, and I think as long as you come once every couple of months, um you can sign everything off, meet the clients, and then do the job as well as you can. And look, we live in a world now where you you can FaceTime, you can m like you can speak to people, you can video chat. So there's a lot of um technology that you can actually utilize.

SPEAKER_01 19:21

Yeah, okay. Because like sometimes you just when when you speak to people, they get a bit worried about health and safety. Like this is obviously a really big, crucial, scary, unknown element and risk of like running your business. So um what do you do for health and safety, admin, that type of stuff? Obviously, being in labor high, and you gave me a little

Admin Habits And Home Office Setup

SPEAKER_01 19:40

bit of a uh a hint on it off-air. So talk to me about your admin process because I find this very interesting.

SPEAKER_02 19:46

Admin is is something that I really need to prepare myself for. I'm not I'm not the best with uh admin. So generally I have to allocate some time, generally in the morning. Uh I feel like I'm the freshest in the morning, um, to kind of set an hour or two aside. I like to listen to very upbeat drum and bass music. Just I feel like it distracts me from the work that I need to do and kind of just smash it out.

SPEAKER_01 20:09

Is that because like you're just rocking it out listening to drum and bass music? Exactly. And you don't mind doing the admin because you're having a bit of fun? Exactly. It gets you in the right mood, you know? It gets you in the right moods. What about drum and bass when you're doing BD?

SPEAKER_02 20:22

No, no, no. Too distracting, too distracting. I know I like to um, you know, build my environment to whatever I need to do. So if it's business and development, I like to stand up, I like to walk. Um, I think my voice comes across way better. Uh that way, you know, there's a saying as well, if you smile, if you come in with energy, it does carry through in your conversation. Um, but yeah, when you're getting uh deep into the admin, uh you need a distraction.

SPEAKER_01 20:50

Running a recruitment agency isn't for everyone, but that's exactly the point. Most people who start one are great recruiters, brilliant on the phone, deep in their market, performing at the highest level. So naturally, starting an agency feels like the logical next step. But being a great recruiter and being a great business owner are two completely different skills. One is about placing people, the other is about building systems, managing cash flow, hiring the right team, and making decisions that compound over years. What got you to the top of the desk won't get you to the top of the business. The people who build agencies that last, that scale, that generate real wealth are the ones that are willing to learn a completely different game. We've helped over a hundred founders make that shift from great recruiter to great business owner. And we don't just point you in the right direction, we back you with an entire in-house team across finance, marketing, branding, and partner success to make sure you actually get there. If you're serious about building something of your own, let's have an honest conversation. Do you have like an office? Do you work from home? Like what's like your setup?

SPEAKER_02 22:03

Yeah, I've invested quite a bit of time into setting up my office into an environment that I really like to work out of.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

So I feel like you would have an awesome home office.

SPEAKER_02 22:11

I do, yeah, yeah. And um I have a nice plant in there that you sent to me. So thank you for that. But no, for for myself, I thought that was you know one of the most important things as well. It's somewhere I'm spending 10 hours of my day um in. So, you know, I got myself a nice chair, nice desk, new desktop monitor. Uh it's fully well kitted out, shelves, everything's matches, it's all duck woods and leather. So yeah. So once you come in, like you um you really feel like you're ready to work. And I think your environment's very, very important.

SPEAKER_01 22:43

Yeah, 100%. So okay, you've got a really

Turning Solo Operator Into A Strength

SPEAKER_01 22:45

nice home office setup. Um that gets you dialed in, makes you feel a bit prof. Um I love that. Does anyone have um have you have you ran into anyone that like worries about you being a one-man band?

SPEAKER_02 22:59

No, actually, uh I don't, but what you do, like you can sort of phrase it in a way that um makes it better, I suppose. The part of being with XRecruiter is you're a bit of both. Like you have the backing of uh a bigger firm and you've got the insurances, you've got the accounts team, but you also are by yourself. So it's just you that's actually gonna be dealing with the client. And that's what I try to make as a selling point. I tell them that, you know, the whole way through, you're just gonna be dealing with me. I'm not gonna pass it off to a junior. You know, you're not gonna every single person that I put in front of you, it's someone that I've personally vetted. Uh so I've got the eight years' experience, and I know a lot of other companies as well that I come across that might have a BDM, but that's not who actually does the work. So, and that's the point I try to make to clients as well. I will tell them that I've got the experience, I've got the experience in the niche. I've worked with all your competitors in the past. I'm the one that's actually responsible for it. And it's my business at the end of the day. So I'm gonna be actually taking a lot of care into providing you a good service. I'm not passing it on to someone else.

SPEAKER_01 24:03

That would be a huge like value add, a huge sell. Because I just think about every time someone approaches me for whatever product, service, tool, technology, I sit there and I talk to the person, and it's so much nicer talking to the person who's got like their balls on the line, so to speak, where you're talking to the guy who's listening to you, who's going to go away and come back to you with his idea on what he's going to do to solve your problems. There's nothing worse. And I used to kind of sell to this pain point of like hiring managers and business owners in the past where you got the big agencies, you can only recruit in Queensland, New South Wales, Victoria, etc. And the the contact that you've got is a national person. They've got people everywhere. You do a great job for them in Victoria. They go, hey, I need the same person in New South Wales. Can you just find me this exactly do exactly what you did in Victoria in New South Wales? And you go, Oh, I've got to hand it over to the New South Wales guy. Then they've got to build a new relationship, give them a new brief, explain a whole new thing. And it's like this big thing that, like, it's annoying as a business owner having to speak to one guy, then you get passed over to the next guy, and then they get passed over and got to speak to the next guy, and all of a sudden it's just like it's just in the too hard basket. So the way that you put it there, I framed it, I frame that question as that's a like a weakness that you're a one-man band, like you know, how it's an insecurity or a like how do you get over this kind of ejection of being a one-man band? But you put it in a way where that's actually your superpower. Is that, hey man, it's just me. I'm gonna do exactly what you need me to do, and I'm gonna deliver. And the person that you've got to pick up the phone to is me. So that's awesome. So you so you've never found anyone that's gone, tell me about your business, how big are you, or blah, blah, blah, or the have, and you've just gone, yeah, mate, it's just me. I'm doing everything and I'll find you the guys.

SPEAKER_02 25:56

Exactly. And um, you know, I was lucky enough to, you know, have have dealt with about 50 to 80 contractors at any one point in the past. So I know that I can handle it as well. And if the client needs it, I'll be able to deliver. And I said to them, if it gets the point, if it, you know, I can't deliver it, I'll hire someone else. Yep. So I haven't had anyone come across that um saw it as a weakness.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

That's really cool. Um, and so what about like objections? What what are the biggest objections that you get as a new business owner? Or perhaps, and sometimes I hear this, that people almost respect you a little bit more because it is your business, and you kind of get a bit more um dialogue, a bit more respect from people because it's you know, you're the man. What's your have you felt that or like what's your experience?

SPEAKER_02 26:46

Yeah, I think um Australian culture as well, I think is um very positive towards people trying it out and giving it a go. So what I've found is that uh people have been really supportive more than anything. So when I speak into, I said I've opened up, this is my experience. I've worked in your niche. Again, I sort of uh harp on about it, but I think it's very important. Um, I've worked with your competitors before, you know, and I'll trying it out by myself. They would have had to do that at some point. Wherever the business is, when you're dealing with the director, they had to do the exact same thing as you're doing at the moment. So they do definitely have a lot more respect for you.

SPEAKER_01 27:22

You feel overly, I guess, incentivized to just like help the dude that's having a crack. Do you plan on like running your agency

Hiring Plans And The 50 Contractor Rule

SPEAKER_01 27:30

by yourself like forever? Or like what's I know you're four months in, so this might be a little bit too big. Like, let's just get through your first six months, your first 12 months first. But like now that you're you're four months into running your business, kind of reinventing who you are, defining your own processes, like being your authentic self, and like really kind of hitting that potential that you you mentioned that you know sometimes you just get to the point where you just want to you've hit the glass ceiling and you want to figure out where else to go. Like, how is that kind of self-development going? Do you do you see yourself growing a team, or is it like I'm you're gonna just crush your agency as a solopreneur and you got passions outside of recruitment? Like now, four months in, like, where where's your mind at?

SPEAKER_02 28:21

Yeah, it definitely goes between the two. Um, I think uh what I've said to myself is that if I get to 50 contractors for over a month, then I'll look at hiring some support.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 28:32

Um, but the thought of going through hiring another recruiter is quite daunting, uh, to be honest. What's daunting? Hiring the wrong person. Uh, you know, getting to the point and having to train them up. So um it's something like I think I will have to do at some point, uh, but I hopefully don't see it for uh in the near future.

SPEAKER_01 28:52

Would you get like a PA or like an outsource person or just someone who you don't have to like um stack all these like pressures and obligations onto, but they can just like elevate you doing like what you do really well.

SPEAKER_02 29:06

Have you thought of that? Yeah, so I'll I'll get them to do more of the admin tasks. I'll send them my drum and bass playlist and and watch them crush that uh admin stuff.

SPEAKER_01 29:16

So yeah, what if they don't like drum and bass?

SPEAKER_02 29:18

It's part of the job. No, but yeah, definitely some support uh when I hit that 50 um for for a month and then see see where it goes. Like it's uh it's not um the beauty is that you can sort of move and it's up to you to make that decision when the time is right, and no one's um telling you what to do or how to run things. So we'll cross that bridge once we get to it.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

Yeah. What what's your goal in like your first 12 months?

SPEAKER_02 29:43

Honestly, just uh keep doing what I'm doing at the moment. Like I I think um I do have a financial goal in mind. Um, but in saying that, like as long as I can have this flexible lifestyle that I'm having at the moment, um, have a better work-life balance, grow something, bring on really good clients. That's kind of what I'm focusing on at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 30:05

Do you reckon you'll hit your 50 contractors uh in a month by the end of like by the end of your 12 months? Because what do you got? 15 now. Yeah. Fifteen now, four months in, I think eight months in 30, 12 months in 45. And then you obviously you'll ramp up a little bit at the final 12 months.

SPEAKER_02 30:23

Yeah, no, I I think I will, yeah. Towards the end of the year. That's a shoe-in. Yeah, I think that's amazing. Yeah, there's there's a couple of um bigger clients that I've bought on that I know will be busy second half of the year. And um, you know, a couple of them are publicly listed, so we'll we'll see how it goes. But I think so.

SPEAKER_01 30:39

Good luck on

Holidays And Backup Support

SPEAKER_01 30:40

that. That actually brings me to my next question. What are you gonna do when you go on holidays as a one-man band? It's kind of in the back of my mind to be honest.

SPEAKER_00 30:49

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:50

I think I'll just leave it for the end of the year when things are quiet. Um, first first year, I'm not really planning to take any big holidays, but um I that's something that I've uh I know that I'd need to address at some point in time. Uh, but that's where maybe that sort of support will help as well. Um, but you know, I'm sort of I I do enjoy sort of working still a bit uh while you are away. And I think with enough processes and um preparation, you can still head away for a week or two without sort of having to sacrifice your whole holiday.

SPEAKER_01 31:23

You know what a lot of our partners do? They put an out-of-office folder on to like their partner success manager after the two weeks they're away. All right, I'll write this down. I'll write this down. Yeah, 100%. We've had so many partners that are like, hey, I'm gone away for a week and a half. I've got likes and things go like on the bubble. Can you just like monitor my emails for me? And they'll just forward emails over and like our partner because our partner success team, obviously, they're all recruiters as well. So they can just kind of pick things up and be like, oh yeah, yeah, you just start on this day, you're all good.

SPEAKER_02 31:50

The good part about ex-recruiter is you have quite a few different partner success managers that have their own strength. Yeah. And Lou has uh been someone who's run a lot of um tradesmen, sorry, and um uh contractors as well. So she's she she understands exactly what labor hire is and how fast you have to act, and

Founder Lessons From Hiring Too Fast

SPEAKER_02 32:10

how um it's all about speed and quality, and you know, you can't sacrifice either.

SPEAKER_01 32:15

When I was running my agency and I'm looking for support on how to run my business better, like the only person I could think of was Greg Savage. Because I was like on LinkedIn and like Greg's obviously coming up all the time. I'm like, I need I need a mentor, I need to figure out what I'm doing, I've got no idea what I'm doing. I think I was four months in and I hired like 10 people. Yeah, and I'd never managed anyone before. And I had 14 months recruitment experience, so I probably bit off more than I can chew. Like Hole called Greg Savage like one day, and I got him on the phone. I'm like, hey Greg, my name's Blake. I run an agency, I'm four months in. I need a mentor. Can you mentor me? Greg turns around and goes, You can afford me, mate. I was like, oh, okay. And then he's like, but I reckon I've I've got someone that will help, you know, someone in your position. That ended up being Ross Clint. I found it really difficult. Ross was great, by the way. Um I did his like 12-month like leadership coaching one-on-one course, and I learned a lot about how to like manage and train recruiters through that period while I had 10 of them absolutely screaming at me day to day because none of them had experience. I had 10 rookies. Yeah, yeah, 10 rookies. Can you believe that? It was crazy. And and because we're all like 21 years old, I used to work out of my mum's office, and so she had a warehouse. So, you know, those like um warehouses with like the mezzanine officers, and then they've got the warehouse out the back, like kind of smallish, but do the job. So I was like upstairs mezzanine, she was downstairs mezzanine, and then um had the had like the pick packers out the back. And we got three complaints from the pickpackers for swearing and yelling too much. My mum had to come up and put signs around the office saying, do not swear, because her pick packers out in the warehouse were actually getting offended. So I just think back and go, if pick packers are getting offended from us swearing and being on the phones and yahooing and doing all sorts of stuff, like obviously you've got some really big problems. But what type of recruitment was it? It was sales recruitment, perm. And I essentially convinced like a handful of my mates to come and work for me commission only. And so um they all came and worked uh at Vandito. They had uh a 10k cost a seat, com only, and they got 50% over a 10k cost a seat. Um that worked for a little bit until uh the culture kind of degraded a little bit because you know everyone's kind of billing 20, 25k a month, roughly, as rookies, and it worked okay, and they'll but they'll make like 12 grand, 13 grand a month. Um, and so you know, 21 making 13 grand a month, like you think Happy Days you think you're you're a big dog. Yeah, yeah. But then uh the internal culture got like a bit toxic in the sense that because I didn't pay anyone a salary, um people kind of like decided to choose when they turned up and like how they behaved, and you know, technically, you know, well mate, you don't pay me a salary, I'm here doing com only, so I can kind of do what I want, type of attitude. So I understood where they're coming from because you know, they're just they're risking it all, and you know, I'm not really like I'm paying tools and rent and stuff like that, but and then so I put them all on a salary, um, and then that killed me. I think I was having to bill like 80k a month myself just to pay for their salary, and then they all stop billing. So don't make my mistakes. I sh I share that because um, you know, especially if you're being super sensible, you're growing up to 50 contractors, you're getting someone to support you, you're obviously doing it way smarter than me. I did 10 years ago. Within the next 12 months, you have your 50 contractors, you have some support. Like, would you have to get an office or have you thought that far ahead yet?

SPEAKER_02 36:08

No, they'll they'll have to work with me and my listen, it's a really nice office setup.

SPEAKER_01 36:12

So we're all exactly exactly.

SPEAKER_02 36:16

Uh there's a barbecue out back and a fireplace, and uh yeah, we'll have a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_01 36:21

So yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_02 36:22

I'd really don't want to grow too quickly. Uh I think I'd be I'd be completely fine with being at 50 to 60 and just by myself as well. So I don't really have and and that way I can have a good work-life balance, I can manage things myself, have support when I need it, and um work that way. Once it gets to that point, I don't know if things will change. Uh and I think for myself, generally I am very goal-oriented. So I always want to get more and more and more and more and you know, aim for bigger things. But I think at this point in time and where I'm sort of at in my life, I think I'd be fine with just having 50 to 60, you know, have reasonable work-life balance and um a little bit of support.

SPEAKER_01 37:05

Are you working long hours at the moment? Like, is the first three months like grinded out in the trenches, coming up for a breath every now and then, not seeing your missus as much? Like, what's it like?

SPEAKER_02 37:17

It is a bit like that. And especially because um we all understand sort of labor hire, it's uh it's you have to be quick. You have to be like there's always time pressures if you get a sniff of a job, maybe two other recruiters have as well. So you kind of have to not sacrifice your quality, but you have to deliver on whatever you need to do very quickly. So at the moment it is a bit like that, but I do think that it's getting a bit easier. Now that I've got a few established clients that I've sort of proven myself to, I think that the first couple placements are the hardest. But once you make those couple and they can see the quality, then you can sort of yeah, take a little bit of a uh foot off the gas.

SPEAKER_01 37:59

It would have been a relief doing your first deal.

SPEAKER_02 38:01

Yeah. What was that like? It happened really quickly. It happened within probably the first three days of me starting. It was about three or four days, yeah. Wow. Yeah. So it was Dude, we've got to have you on our hall of fame, quickest first deal. Maybe. I'm not I'm not sure if I've qualified or not. Uh but no, it was it was very quick, and I think that presented its own challenges because I had no idea how to put a placement through, how to sign up a client, and how to um make sure the health and safety is all correct and make sure everything's right before they get paid the the following week. So it was sort of baptism by fire a little bit. Uh, but I learned very quickly.

SPEAKER_01 38:36

That's the best way to learn though, because what what I find is when people get started, obviously the way that you've done it and done your own processes, it's worked out really well. But a lot of people get like stuck in like process analysing overwhelm where they can't actually do the job that they're meant to be doing because they're too busy thinking about, oh, the logo needs to be here on my terms of business, or I'm a letterhead, or this should be on that side, not that side. And all of a sudden there's this like decision fatigue of like worrying about all the shit that doesn't actually matter. Have you ever felt like you were getting distracted with little things that you shouldn't get distracted in? And like, how did you pull yourself out if you if you did?

SPEAKER_02 39:14

No, I think I think for me, especially with the the design stuff, I'm like, it looks fine. I'm not I don't have a like a strong eye for design. Dude, your brand looks epic. Yeah, well, X recruit out for that. Uh there's a really good team. Jamie did an amazing job. And um, once I had a chat with them about what I wanted, they they just delivered. So I didn't really have to think about that. But I do understand that I've got a couple of um mates that are starting their own agencies as well. It takes a lot of time. The branding side of things, the um the logo, the name.

SPEAKER_01 39:47

Are they so they're starting their agency not through Execruder?

SPEAKER_02 39:50

That's right. Yeah. How's their experience? Well, he he's just doing a perm only. Both of them are doing perm early only. Uh, and I think it's it's going pretty well so far. Um, but again, it's you know, they're sort of waiting to release everything, so dealing with non-compete and all this other stuff. So they're a bit under the radar at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 40:10

See, it's always interesting. Like obviously, there's so many different pathways you can go down. Um, whether you do it with execruder, an execruited competitor. I don't even know who that would be. Would you know who? Yeah, neither. Um, so like this um so there's so many options, obviously go solo, but um yeah, it's just it's just interesting hearing all these different people's experience getting started. Like I know a guy who we've been speaking to for a while, he ended up obviously going out on his own, not with Execruder. And he spent like five grand on terms of business. It took him seven months to get his website up and running, and like he was going without income for ages. All his runway was essentially gone trying to get the setup going, not even actually recruiting in in his in his business, and he ended up just getting a job because he needed to save more money up and have this thing on the side. It was a bit of a tragic case, actually. But um obviously there's successful stories on

Entrepreneur Mindset And Partner Support

SPEAKER_01 41:05

that as well. Um, that's really cool. So, did you did you ever think you were going to be a business owner, or has this always been like in the back of your mind that you know one day I'm gonna run my own business? Like, where did this kind of entrepreneurial spirit come from?

SPEAKER_02 41:17

So out of school I did real estate, so I did it for about three years, and that was very much like commission only. Uh, you get what you sell. So it was kind of running your own business. And when I was working in a recruitment company, I also treated it like my own business as well. So I feel like I was quite well set up for this move because of uh the last 10 years, I've basically been responsible for getting my own work. I've always done 360, but I think again, the the labor higher aspect is something that I really enjoy. I like the fast pace of it. I like dealing with construction, I like going out to site. So without ex-recruiter kind of providing that framework, I don't think I would have been able to do it.

SPEAKER_01 42:02

So you've considered in the past, but then just hadn't found an avenue and now you have awesome, awesome. What do you what does like your partner think of you? Did she ever see you as like this entrepreneurial spirited business owner type thing? Well, I guess you do on coding stuff, and so you do have that like natural curiosity flair about you to try things. Um, but like what's the relationship like with your partner now? Has it has running your own business has it affected your relationship or has it like made it stronger or like what's like home life like?

SPEAKER_02 42:35

Yeah, it definitely I think made it stronger because um we get to see each other a lot more. It's like we're working together.

SPEAKER_01 42:41

Does she have a cool home office as well? She does, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:44

She I I have one room and she's got two or three. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. So she's she's setting up her business at the moment as well. So it's um we're in a in a stage at the moment where both of us are working on our own businesses, which you don't really get to hear with couples uh often. So um it put us into a very interesting position. And again, you know, we spend a lot of time together, which is really nice, and we kind of go through the same problems as well. Uh, I think when I brought this uh to her attention, you know, she thought about it for a little bit and she thought it was a great idea. She doesn't see anything wrong with it. Um, she can see me succeeding in this as well, and she's been really, really supportive. She must be proud of you. She is, yeah. She is. Yeah. Well, you get away from the city. She's proud of this podcast as well. Yeah, that's right. She's wishing me a lot of life. She's like, Yeah, that's right. Yeah, I love it. All right, well, shout out to her. What business is she starting? She's starting a perfume business.

SPEAKER_01 43:38

I remember you saying that over dinner. That sounds awesome. We're gonna have to get the can she make the extra crude cologne.

SPEAKER_02 43:44

I was victorious, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:46

Can she do something like that?

SPEAKER_02 43:47

Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_01 43:48

Dude, I think that's really, really fascinating.

SPEAKER_02 43:51

She's gonna be running sort of uh experiences for perfumery. So to for people to come in, learn about perfumery, it's very immersive, um, first in the world. Yeah, she's a trailbrazer.

SPEAKER_01 44:02

That is awesome. Good honor. Well, shout out. Well, if you want to plug her in, we'll um when when she does get, I don't know, an info thing

Advice For Recruiters Ready To Leap

SPEAKER_01 44:10

going on. I reckon we've got to plug her on confessions.

SPEAKER_02 44:12

Oh, you'll have to, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:13

What we typically like to do to like wrap up our podcasts is we usually like to ask our guests, what advice would you give to either yourself 12 months ago or someone who's in recruitment right now, they're grinding it out, they feel like they can relate to you, they've kind of hit that glass ceiling, they're not too sure what to do, they didn't know what options were available to them. Like, what kind of advice would you give to that recruiter who has hit the glass ceiling?

SPEAKER_02 44:42

Uh just a bet on yourself. Like uh clients, um, you know, you kind of think sometimes that it's the company, you know, like you're doing well because of the company, you're doing well because of their name, because of uh the relationships they've built up. But in reality, clients and recruiters, it's a one-to-one relationship. So if you're doing well at the moment, you'll do well by yourself as well. And it's scary. Uh scary to bet on yourself, uh, but people respect it. And the thing is that you do feel different as well. Like you, you know, you have a bit of pride about yourself, you're running a business, you're growing something. It becomes like a soul focus that you're so excited to go to work. You um wake up every day with a smile on your face because you're building something for yourself. And that's something that no one can take away from you. And it's very, very different building someone else's business for them versus building your own business for yourself.

SPEAKER_01 45:37

Mate, you said that beautifully.

SPEAKER_02 45:38

Thank you. Yeah, but I've been practicing it.

Where To Find Max And Wrap

SPEAKER_01 45:40

Well, Max from Trade Plus, thank you for joining us on Confessions. I really appreciate it. Super insightful. If anyone wants to reach out, learn more about you, learn more about your story. Are you open for them? Sending you a LinkedIn connection.

SPEAKER_02 45:54

Max Cozen on LinkedIn and Tradeplarecruit.com.au.

SPEAKER_01 45:58

M A X Space K O Z I N. Awesome. Thanks, Max. Appreciate it. Beautiful. Thank you. Thank you.