Scott and Gene talk with Misty Lanham, a dedicated public historian at Texas's most iconic monument. Misty sheds light on tales often lost in the shadows of the Alamo's grand narrative. She takes us behind the scenes on the painstaking efforts to protect the Alamo and reveals the ambitious projects underway. This episode is a tribute to the unsung heroes of historical conservation, as Misty shares the complexities and triumphs of curating an authentic experience for visitors from all corners of the world.
The Alamo's Website: https://www.thealamo.org/
Scott and Gene talk with Misty Lanham, a dedicated public historian at Texas's most iconic monument. Misty sheds light on tales often lost in the shadows of the Alamo's grand narrative. She takes us behind the scenes on the painstaking efforts to protect the Alamo and reveals the ambitious projects underway. This episode is a tribute to the unsung heroes of historical conservation, as Misty shares the complexities and triumphs of curating an authentic experience for visitors from all corners of the world.
The Alamo's Website: https://www.thealamo.org/
This podcast is not sponsored by and does not reflect the views of the institutions that employ us. It is solely our thoughts and ideas, based upon our professional training and study of the past.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Talking Texas History, the podcast that explores Texas history before and beyond the Alamo. Not only will we talk Texas history, we'll visit with folks who teach it, write it, support it, and with some who've made it and, of course, all of us who live it and love it. Welcome to another edition of Talking Texas History. I'm Gene Price.
Speaker 1:I'm Scott Sosby. Gene, in our opening bit you always mention the Alamo. It's our standard opening, but we've never had anything on the Alamo before, have we?
Speaker 2:Well, no, I mean I say you know beyond the Alamo and we've never gotten to the Alamo. So I guess it's time we look at the Alamo.
Speaker 1:I think it is. And so we have a guest today, Misty Lanham, who is a former SFA student. So we, that's that's one connection. But she actually works at the Alamo and she helps to take care of the Alamo every day and has great Alamo stories. So, Misty, welcome to Talking Texas History. Why don't you tell our listeners first, just to get to know a little bit about yourself, your education, how you came to work at the Alamo, things like that in your position as well?
Speaker 3:Absolutely Well. First off, thanks for having me. And so for my background, I went to undergrad at Sam Houston. I did history and geology and then I'm sure the people at SFA would say I got smart and I went over to Stephen F Austin for public history and I actually I really shopped around for that program there are a couple in the state and I felt that SFA just had really fantastic opportunities and so that's why I chose to go there. Um, I was drawn to public history.
Speaker 3:I think so many of us have a story similar to this. I was in eighth grade and I went with my grandmother to Johnson City and we went to the Sarah Beckman farm and I saw a woman there make it like dressed out in 1800s attire making peach cobbler over a fire, and I was like man. That's what I want to do with my life. I haven't quite made it to that. I'm sure there are opportunities that I could grasp if there was, but I eventually came to work at the Alamo. I, um, I got out of grad school, I went and worked contract for the military for a while in Germany and whenever I got back I just started applying to as many jobs as possible. I probably applied to over a hundred of them. Um, and very thankfully, the Alamo gave me a call. I didn't even hope that I would hear back from them, because it's kind of like the dream job in Texas in so many ways and, um, I was just really fortunate that my resume stuck, I guess.
Speaker 1:It was the fine education that you got. That's what it was.
Speaker 3:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Well, I guess that you know everybody talks about the Alamo and you know that's kind of the icon of Texas and Texas history. Uh, you're at that site every day and you see not only it from a uh, you know somebody who is coming to the Alamo, but also as a historian and, uh, behind the scenes, uh, professional. So tell us something people don't know about the Alamo.
Speaker 3:I think something that is so fantastic about the Alamo and the Alamo story and our interpretation is that often with historic sites or historic events, you get the complaint that, oh well, this story comes from a bunch of old, dead rich white guys. Um, and that's that actually is kind of relevant and it tells a lot about the time period, because they were often the most educated, they were writing correspondence, they were active in society, and so they do leave a bigger um written record than some of the others. But what's so fantastic about the Alamo is that the majority of the story that we get on the text and behalf comes from an enslaved person and women and, um, that's just so very different from other, especially battlefields, and so a lot of our story comes from Joe, who is allowed to leave after the battle. He goes and he tells the convention, he goes and he tells the convention, he goes and tells everybody that will listen. Basically, here's what happened at the Alamo.
Speaker 3:This is kind of a warning, because they're headed your way and we have the same with Susanna Dickinson and Wanda Owlsbury and so many of these women. They go along and they share their story and that's how we know about what was taking place. There are gaps, because those individuals went into hiding during the battle, and so we have to take into account the fact that none of them were literate and so they were not able to write their own story. Somebody else had to write that down for them, so we have to take into consideration. Well, did that person embellish a little? Did they put it into their own words? We know, um, because William Fairfax Gray wrote that he felt that Joe was a very well-spoken individual, and so we feel that that's a pretty true transcription of what he wrote. It's just, it's such a great opportunity to tell the story of kind of the historical other as well.
Speaker 2:You know that's a that's a great response. Let me ask, ask you a follow-up question to that. And, and that is because You're absolutely right, the people, the men who fought defending the Alamo did not survive, and so the story, as you point out, is really the story of the participants, who people who didn't participate but were in hiding, and I think that's, you know, that's an interesting point that I'm very glad you brought up, because you know so much of what people do think they know about the Alamo is based upon, you know, walt Disney movies from the 50s.
Speaker 3:I have to say also there there's absolutely value in Disney and John Wayne Alamo Because that brought attention to the story. There there's embellishment, there's not a hundred percent accuracy, but so many of the people who support our site I mean Phil Collins is a fantastic example of this because he watched Disney's Davy Krocke King of the Wild Frontier. I believe that I read that that was the first song that he sang in public and he won a talent show when he was five and that just created a lifelong love of the subject. And he goes off, he becomes famous, he has money and suddenly he can buy this history and help preserve it. And now it's come back to us and so, while we laugh at Disney and John Wayne, it's absolutely helpful to the story and building the love of the story.
Speaker 1:I guess exactly right, mean we do like to you know as as professional story, and sometimes we probably are too hard on Disney and all. We don't think about the fact that, hey, at least this builds interest, and people have, and that's been a big interest to that. The management of the Alamo is undergone change and starting in 2011, it shifted from Management by the daughters of the Republic of Texas and came under the umbrella of the Texas General Land Office, and they really embrace the interpretation, the Alamo and enhancement of the Alamo experience for visitors. So won't you let us know, since you're involved in that, what are some of the projects that are going on right now, the Alamo things? I guess Jean and I'll be dead, probably, but you're young, you'll be around for a long time in 2034, 2044, what might be some things that people will see at the Alamo that we don't see now?
Speaker 3:Oh, my goodness, I hope they y'all are, because I would love for y'all to get to see all of this. But if we let's bring it into the a little bit more near future, let's say 2027, because we've got some big deadlines coming up, and so the first thing that is going to pop up is should be open summer next year is a brand new education center. So in the past, school groups basically pulled their buses up to the front of the site. They open the doors and they let the kids run, and that's, of course, not for lack of teachers trying. But you know, field trips they're all jacked up on sugar. You just do your best sometimes, and so what the education center is going to be able to offer is an orientation before going on to site. I think that one of the really great experiences that I had in visiting a historic site was when I went to Pearl Harbor. You have to go into the theater and you have to watch the video so that you understand what you're about to see, so that when you're standing on the Arizona, you know the, the scope and you know the weight of that history that you're on, and so that will be helpful. It'll have classrooms, it'll have demonstration areas and from what I hear, they're even planning a demonstration garden with a working as a key so that we can talk about mission farms and things like that. So that's coming up very soon.
Speaker 3:We are currently in the process and this will be an ongoing project Conservation work on the historic structures. So we call the church in the long beric artifact one and two, and we absolutely have to take care of those, and so we've done moisture monitoring. Our conservator did what she called the black paper project, and so she put black paper around the edges of the room and measured wall loss and it was actually a very significant amount. And so they're going through and they're trying to figure out what we can best do to keep the buildings in the best condition possible. Sometimes it involves archeology to look down on their foundations, and so we'll continue doing that work and I know, coming up pretty soon we'll have some work on the facade, because these ice storms that come through really can do some damage, and so taking care of our buildings, it's a huge priority, of course.
Speaker 3:And then the biggest, literally the biggest is our visitor center and museum, which we're hoping will be open by 2027. And so this building, it's an entire city block to start off with, and so we're going from a one room museum, which we formerly had Now we have the collection center, to a full city block and we'll have a free lobby, and so that'll give some educational opportunities. It has eight galleries, there will be a 40 theater that goes over the entire 300 plus year history, and then over to the side where the Woolworth building once stood, we'll have a civil rights counter to talk about that important history that took place on Alamo Plaza, and so all of those things coming together, I'm sure that we'll add more to these projects, but actually in the very near future we have some incredibly exciting stuff going on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's really is exciting. It's been what the GLO's been going on. People may not realize that how much has changed since the GLO took it over in 2011. And all these land commissioners have. That's been a big part of what they've been doing in the office and they've done great work at the Alamo. I think that this is exciting for anybody.
Speaker 2:You know, missy, I'm curious about the age of the Alamo walls. I guess I don't know exactly. Do they have? What is the date on the walls? Do they date to the 1700s or are they more recent than that?
Speaker 3:So it really depends on the area. So if we're talking about the church, the majority of the walls on the church I believe we say about 80% do date back to the Mission era and the church. They attempted to construct it in 1744. Part of it collapsed in and they relocated and started again, and so the majority of the walls date to 1756.
Speaker 2:OK On the long.
Speaker 3:That's good to know. Yeah, yeah, on the long barric, it's less than that, because the US military came in they used that as storage, as they did with the church. But the church was a little bit sturdier. The long barric, they built it up. They put a second story all the way around. Then it was a mercantile for a while and so that one got a little rougher treatment. And so I believe we say that's about 30% possibly original and that's mostly that front wall that faces the plaza.
Speaker 2:Well, I think most people you know just assume that it was all built 1718. Or maybe aren't aware of the age. And it's good that you guys know the dates of that, because then to figure out how much of it is lost, that's something I had never really considered. Is that some of that is going to deteriorate over time?
Speaker 3:Well, it's funny that you bring that up, because so often I think people go on like the riverboat tours and a few other things, and they learn that the Alamo was established in 1718. It moved a couple of times and then we have the current Alamo and from that they take we picked up the church and we relocated it to the site, and so a lot of times visitors come up and they say oh my gosh, I can't believe you move this into downtown, not understanding that the plaza and all of these buildings built up around it and it actually shows the continuing significance of the site that it is so built up around it because everybody was coming in the US military and then it was a warehouse and all of these different things. And so whenever they say 1718, they're not realizing that's when it was established. It was closer to the river, there were floods, so they had to move it, and now we're on the site that these particular buildings have always been on.
Speaker 2:And many people just think of the chapel as being the Alamo, but it was actually a much larger complex.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, and that's another thing we hear very often. You know it's so sad that the city of San Antonio didn't save all of the Alamo. Well, the city of San Antonio as we know it now didn't exist at that point. But also I'm reading through a few resources right now and it talks about the different areas in history. As these outer buildings were taken down, and really soon after the Battle of the Alamo, the Mexican army didn't want this to be a defensible position again and so they welcomed to the people from the town to bring their carts and to gather stone and to take down those exterior buildings and use them for their own building projects. So one it's cool because there might be Alamo stone and other historic buildings around town, but also the demolition of the Alamo site as a whole began at very long time ago.
Speaker 2:Very interesting. Now you have been part of a new exhibit that has, you know, come home to the Alamo, so can you tell us a little bit about this exhibit and how you go about curating such an exhibit to get these items on display?
Speaker 3:Absolutely so. The exhibit that we currently have centers around one very important artifact, and that is the Travis letter from February, february 24th 1836, the second day of the siege. This was an exciting project for me personally, because when it was last year, 10 years ago, I was a student at SFA and so I drove all the way to see it and my cohort was like you're crazy, we have assignments doing it, but what if it never comes back? And so whenever I got the call from our executive director this summer that said, hey, why don't you put in a request and see if we can get it again, it really felt like this whole full circle moment is like well, I guess I do get to see it. It's not a once in the last time, it's a twice in my lifetime, and so that was very exciting.
Speaker 3:There are so many considerations that go into bringing that caliber of an artifact to the site, and so one of the advantages that we had this time around is that we have this new collection center. Previously it was displayed in the church, which were not able to climate control to the degree that we came to modern building, and so the fact that we have a really great HVAC system in here is helpful. We also did many walkthroughs with DPS to check security. If we needed to evacuate it For some reason, what we would do, we had all sorts of contingency plans in place.
Speaker 3:And then the main thing, going back to climate control, is just being sure that with the crazy Texas weather I mean in wintertime it can be 30 or it can be 80. It can be in 100% humidity how do we mitigate all of those different factors? And so we had to dig into all of that. A lot of it is owed to a really fantastic case that is properly sealed up, but just making sure that we take care of that we have the proper lighting controls. We had T-slack come and visit a couple of times they're the ones that have the letter and protect it and so they came to make sure that everything was going well. And so we have that about one more week and then we'll be switching out to a brand new exhibit. But the exhibit that we created, we wanted to make sure that it went along with the theme of the letter, and so we also talked about couriers and the horses of the Texas Revolution, and since that letter was carried by courier and helped spread the word of the siege.
Speaker 1:That's really interesting. I saw the letter when peace like put it up what a couple of years ago maybe or something like that. And you know, it's one of those things you can get cynical when you do this for a living. It's a letter, it's not that big of a deal, but I actually got a little tingle when I actually got over to look at it. It was something that I wasn't expecting to have, of course. That doesn't that's. That's. That's great. These type of things can come home and and be displayed on this. Did you all have to? I mean, when you said you put in a request to put it up, was it simply hey, call peace like and said, hey, can we see the out? The have the Travis letter over here. What steps did you have to go through to actually make that happen?
Speaker 3:It is a little bit more intense than that. So we had to write a letter of request that talked about why this was a good time to bring it out, how we felt that it would contribute not only to what we have going on on the site right now but also to the Travis letter and to T slack that really that it's worthwhile and it's worth I don't want to say the potential damage, but every time you take that document out and it's potentially exposed to the sun, that does cause a degree of damage, and so really having to justify why they should take it out of a dark room and let us display it, and so sending in that letter, and then it had to go before their commission a couple of times, and then it had to. The contract had to bounce back and forth between legal a few times as well, and then they delivered it kind of in the middle of the night with the DPS escort and that's how it's going to go home as well.
Speaker 1:What was the response? Like, I mean, y'all have increased and visited people specifically come to to see the letter.
Speaker 3:Oh, absolutely, and I would say that our, our members have gotten the best deal out of it. So you buy a membership and you get to get into the collection center free, every day, as many times as you want, and so we had a few people, especially who came down for the commemoration of the battle, who would just bop in a couple of times a day and check it out. But overall, especially last week was our big spring break week and I I have not seen numbers like that in this building. This building is only a year old, but I walked out into it and I was like man COVID's over. I was planning to go to San Antonio.
Speaker 1:We were planning to go to San Antonio last week when we decided not to. I guess if it was big crowds, I'm glad that we didn't at all.
Speaker 2:What are some of the standard questions, or maybe even the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the most unusual questions you get? I mean, I'm sure people ask to see the line in the sand, right.
Speaker 3:Oh, yes. So that can be broken into many, many things. I will say the majority of people who visit, especially who come from other places and haven't gone through Texas history like we get to if you live in the States, they come here because someone told them that they should, or because they know it's a significant site, but often they don't know why. Or they know about the battle, but they don't know more of the context. Maybe they don't know about the mission, or they don't know that the battle of the Alamo wasn't a standalone. It was within a bigger revolution. And so oftentimes one of the common questions that we get, or kind of one of the challenges, is tell me the history of the site in two minutes, or what happened here, and it's like how long do you have? And that's when you get the limit of like two minutes, because we could go on and on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what's the elevator speech on the Alamo?
Speaker 3:Right, and so I think they want to know why the Alamo is talked about in pop culture, why it's referred to in history so often, why they should remember it, why Peewee Herman came here, all of those different things. And so trying to build up that context for them, which I feel is going to be a little bit easier in the future because of the projects that we've had going on so recently, we reconstructed the Palisade, we are currently in the process of reconstructing the South Gate and Lunettes and we've reconstructed the 18 pound linen platform. Yes, oh wow, when you walk onto the plaza they're still doing a little bit of work, but when you walk onto the plaza and you see those things and they look very odd for an urban center, you're like wait, I'm walking into something. And so as we continue those, I think that that context will start to build and maybe people will have a little bit more understanding by the time they get into the church.
Speaker 1:That's great. That's great. I didn't know that. That's fantastic. I'll have to go back now for sure to do that. Joe, just as an aside, as we all referenced, there's certain people you know. We talk about Peewee and coming and the basement. They won't get it. Next summer it will have been 40 years since that movie came out. Can you believe that, 40 years since that movie came out?
Speaker 2:So there's a whole lot of people don't even know about the basement to the Alamo, and Scott still shows it in class as true history?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's history. You know, let's shift gears just a little bit. Can I talk?
Speaker 3:about one more thing. I'm sorry, sure sure I want to get into unusuals real quick. Sorry.
Speaker 2:Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 3:So one of the things and I think that it's because people don't sometimes know why they're coming to the Alamo and they lump all of this kind of like wild west, cowboys and Indians type history in with one another, and so we really get asked pretty frequently about Daniel Boone, custer and Little Bighorn. And then also one of the things that has been most shocking to me is that I've been asked multiple times about things that are in the Holy Land, and so I had somebody come up to me one time and they said where is the stone? And I'm like we're in the church, it's all around ya. And they were like no, the Alamo stone. And I was like, yes, here. They said no. Whenever the whole place was blown up and there was the one stone that survived and it's super special and that's why we remember it I was like I don't think that's here.
Speaker 2:Wow, it's like there's a sword coming out of it.
Speaker 3:Right. And so I had another instance which kind of made me bring that back around. A little boy walked up to me. He was about six years old and he just had tears streaming down his face. Now it's not uncommon for kids to cry when they go into the church, because you go from light to dark and they're not sure what they're going into and that sort of thing. But this little boy walked up to me crying and said is this where Jesus died? And he's like oh honey, like it's very important to us Texans, but it's not quite that level.
Speaker 1:Jesus, that's the Alamo. Well, don't give certain people that some ideas. You know what I'm saying. Let's shift gears just a little bit, because I want us to get in Cause. We have a lot of students who listen to our podcast, or so I'm told. You're a trained public historian. You went through a program. Tell our audience how your training helps you to get this job and prepare you for this job. And if a student came to you right now and said I'm thinking of going into public history, what advice would you give them?
Speaker 3:So I think back to school there. Quite often you would start on the first day of your classes and the professor I'm thinking about, dr Sandel, would say what is public history? And you really feel like a smart elic when he looks around and it's like, okay, well, I'm gonna raise my hand. Public history is how we create history for the public. It's like well, duh, but it's quite different than academic history, because in public history you can't work under the assumption that your visitor has any sort of context or background for it, and so in your presentation you have to make it approachable and understandable for all ages, knowledges, language levels, and one of the terms it's just one word that we run into quite often here at the Alamo that makes that come back to us is secularization. I mean, there's not another good word for it. It's closing the mission, closing down the church, giving the lands to the former mission inhabitants and that sort of thing. But the average person, the average eight-year-old, doesn't know what secularization is. Somebody who speaks a foreign language probably doesn't know what that is. And so making that history understandable and approachable for everybody.
Speaker 3:And so, going back to thinking about SFA, and why I chose the program was that there were so many great hands-on opportunities in Nacodotius and the surrounding area and so through our classes and through internships and those sort of things, we learned how to write historical markers, iclean gravestones for many summers, did historic structure surveys, we learned how to do oral history interviews. We process collections, we digitize collections, present papers, research, all of these things. And it gave such a well-rounded education that when opportunities have popped up here at the Alamo, I either already know how to do them or I have the skill set to figure it out and do a pretty good job. And so the other day I was asked by one of our employees hey, should I go to school for a museum studies degree? And while that's great and that gives you some specialization that I didn't get, public history is so well-rounded that if I wasn't able to find a job at a historic site, there's an archive, there's a library, there's research opportunities, and so in that way I think that it's just it's a really great path and so kind of what I would pass along and I remember you saying this, dr Stacey is that you take the opportunities that you can and you build up your skill sets.
Speaker 3:You can't assume that you're gonna graduate and you get to go right into curation. People work their entire careers to get those jobs. So, as nicely as possible, get in line. Take the job that you can get that pays your bills. Learn some skills and build up.
Speaker 1:That's a good, that's great advice, and I'm gonna say so everybody we're on public forum, for everybody can see you've done that better than almost any graduate we've had. You have really taken the ball and run with it. We're very proud of you here, that's for sure.
Speaker 3:Oh my gosh, thank you. I just kind of going into that. I don't wanna be the mean mean parade, but for an example for people who maybe don't believe that that process works. I started here at the Elmo as a tour guide, but because of those experiences that I had at SFA and previously I mean even Sunday school and Vacation, bible School and little volunteer things that I did because of that I was able to move into the education department and I helped to coordinate field trips, I made lesson plans, we did virtual learning, we did summer camp and then I moved into marketing.
Speaker 3:People don't think of marketing and history, but when I was working social media, I had an audience of 150,000 people who had to listen to me talk about history every day, which is pretty cool. It's a little intimidating also because everybody has an opinion. And then I was able to come into collections manager. I'm still not a curator I'm on year eight and a half but with building that skill set, building up the CV and doing the work and taking the opportunities as they present themselves, it really can lead you to great places.
Speaker 2:When we wrap up our show, we like to ask our guests one question, and that is Misty Lanham, what do you know?
Speaker 3:Do y'all know that this is a very intimidating question for everybody, but I think that what I know, and I hope that many people realize, is that we have some incredibly wonderful, fantastic, amazing minds working in history, specifically Texas history and public history.
Speaker 3:Right now we have the opportunity here at the Alamo to work with some of the other sites and museums in Texas, and so we've done events in the past where we ask the other Texas Revolution sites to come and represent their sites here on the ground to help build that context and help people to understand that the Battle of the Alamo wasn't stand alone.
Speaker 3:And when you get the people from the Independence Trail and you get Scott McMahon from Goliath, brian McCauley from San Felipe, all the wonderful people over at San Jacinto who are shooting canons on the weekends and the Living History Farm at Washington on the Brassus, and we all come together, it creates this really fantastic experience because we're all kind of in these adjacent areas that are so interrelated but also very different and contribute very well to one another. And then on top of that you have the Forge Trail and Cody Mowbly out there figuring out how to make an amber type machine and taking pictures of people on glass and all of the museums and historic sites around the state that when we come together and we work together, we are so much better off for it because of these incredible minds and the passion and the work that everybody's putting in.
Speaker 1:This is great. This is fantastic. I'm glad you came on.
Speaker 3:Okay, thank y'all All right, bye-bye. Bye-bye, okay, bye.