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Talking Texas History
Talking Texas History
In Conclave, Part 2: Texas Ties, Hollywood Takes, and Vatican Stakes
Ever wondered what really happens when Catholic cardinals gather to elect a new pope? In this episode, we continue our conversation with canon lawyer Benedict Nguyen of the University of St. Thomas in Houston.
The timing couldn't be more perfect—recorded during the recent papal conclave, our conversation explores the fascinating tension between Hollywood portrayals (like the trending film "Conclave") and the authentic spiritual process. Nguyen distinguishes between procedural accuracy and the deeper theological substance that drives papal succession, offering insights into what happens behind those famous locked doors.
Of course, we tackle the burning question many Americans wonder: Could a cardinal with Texas ties like Kevin Farrell or Daniel DiNardo ever become pope? The answer proves more complex than you might expect, as we discuss the geopolitical considerations, historical precedents, and surprising unpredictability of conclaves throughout history.
Whether you're fascinated by religious history, political processes, or simply curious about one of the world's oldest continuing institutions, this episode offers intellectual stimulation and surprising insights. Subscribe now and join our exploration of where Texas connects to pivotal moments in world history.
For more information, see Papal Death & Conclave Presented by Benedict Nguyen on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/live/xvKdoO867W0?si=RCvS_kwycUi--LhS
This podcast is not sponsored by and does not reflect the views of the institutions that employ us. It is solely our thoughts and ideas, based upon our professional training and study of the past.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Talking Texas History, the podcast that explores Texas history before and beyond the Alamo. Not only will we talk Texas history, we'll visit with folks who teach it, write it, support it, and with some who've made it and, of course, all of us who live it and love it. I'm Scott Sosbeck and I'm Gene Preuss, and this is Talking Texas History. Well, welcome back to another edition of Talking Texas History. Well, welcome back to another edition of Talking Texas History.
Speaker 2:Last time we had the first part of a conversation with Benedict Wynne, who is the Associate Vice President at the University of St Thomas in Houston. He's a canon lawyer and he was talking with us in our last episode about what happens when you elect a new pope the old pope passes away and during that transition period Now, while we were recording that interview, we were, of course, during the conclave period they were trying to decide. As we wrapped up, I went downstairs and on the news was the broadcast that white smoke was seen coming out of the chimney, which means that a new pope was elected. So it was a timely interview and we're going to continue with part two of that interview and talk about some other things relating to popes and their elections and history in the Catholic Church. So Scott's got a great question about the movie Conclave.
Speaker 1:I read something the other day that streaming and downloading of the movie the Conclave has increased by 300% since the passing of Pope Francis on this, and I watched it and I was fascinated by it. Of course, tell us, because you would have insight onto that First maybe, how accurate. You know movies take liberties we, being historians, know how much they do but of the process, to some extent, how accurate was that movie in portraying a conclave? And if not, or even if it is, just give us a little insight, idea. What's going on inside that room to some extent, how are they doing this? What's happening procedurally, not decision-making or so.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I've always enjoyed Robert Harris's writings. His Sister Old Trilogy was just one. That was absolutely fantastic that he wrote. I really enjoyed it, and so when Conclave came out, you know I rushed to get the book well before all of this was popular, and so I read the book and it was one of those where it left a bad taste in my mouth.
Speaker 3:There were some things that were so good in it and other things that were just, you know, very off base with it. And then when the movie came out, the cinematography, the colors, the pageantry fantastic how it's done A lot of it was accurate in the procedural sense. Now, of course, again, hollywood drama being what it is, you have to kind of move things around a little bit. It's not going to portray every single little thing. So I get that. The notion of having to vote and fold and bring it up and things like that. That's very accurate.
Speaker 3:We have a document that, uh, actually pope john paul ii uh gathered and put together. It's called university. Uh, dominici grates on on the universal care of the universal flock of the lord. In it, what he did was he gathered together centuries and centuries of protocols on how this works, on how the conclave works, how the interregnum period works, how the set of content works. Benedict tweaked it just a little bit and we can talk about that because it was kind of a significant tweak. Francis tweaked some of the ceremonial aspect as well, but usually that document, which we call UDG, University of Dominican Republic is really the guiding principle, and what people have been surprised to see is just how detailed that document is. I mean, the document, particularly when it comes to the canonical election of a pope, is very, very precise because, again, we don't want anybody playing fast and low, we don't want anybody cheating on this.
Speaker 3:So to the point where you know who's selected as the scrutineers, who's the counters, who's selected and who can say what, in what order you vote, how you have to vote, how public it has to be, that's portrayed fairly, you know, fairly accurately in the book and in the movie.
Speaker 3:What was not, I don't think, as accurate was some of the characters I think were, again, you know, being drama. Some of the characters were much more flat, in the sense they were more one-dimensional. Yeah, there's politics and intrigues and things like that, but a lot of cardinals are much more in tune with their duties and things like that. So I think it gave a little bit of a feel that this is more of a political process than a liturgical and spiritual one. It also gave the kind of the temptation of looking at this process purely through political eyes and while, yes, the papacy is something that exists in time, the papacy is something that is on the geopolitical stage. The papacy is predominantly, you know, a spiritual leader who the big question is can this person, can this Pope, preach the gospel in history, in the here and now? And I think the movie kind of it kind of did bring that out as much.
Speaker 1:Well, that brings up a good point, I guess, when we talk about this, you said the politics and you said it plays a role. How much of a role does it play in electing a new pope?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think I mean, again, my undergraduate was in musicology, so history has always been kind of a love of mine, just like both of you. The Christian faith, catholicism in particular, is what we call a historical religion, which means that, you know, it's not just a set of moral codes, it's not just a philosophy of life, it's something that we believe exists in history. The crux of it is whether God exists and whether his son, god himself, entered into history as a human person. Because of that, then, and then in the Catholic perspective, that he starts this church to be an instrument of salvation and things like that. Which means that, you know, the church, the body of Christ, exists in time and exists in space and exists in history, and because of that there's a very you know, if you will, pretty realism to that.
Speaker 3:And of course, the papacy has, has existed on that geopolitical stage for centuries now as a force. Then the reason for it is to preach the gospel, is to make the gospel known. Now, different times in history we've done that better than others. Other, in some times that human side took over a little bit more and we've forgotten about that more divine mission. So there's that constant push and pull there divine mission. So there's that constant push and pull there.
Speaker 3:In contemporary times, particularly with the loss of the papal states under Pope Pius IX, the papacy kind of shifted a little bit on the geopolitical stage. No more is it, you know, the kingdom of the papal states with armies and things like that. Now it's more of the moral conscience, if you will, so that you know, for example, the Holy See is a permanent observer at the UN and serves as mediators in lots of international conflicts and things like that. So there is, while it is not the main focus of the Church, because the Church exists in history, in time, the papacy is, you know, is a presence in time at the service of humanity.
Speaker 1:We have two cardinals with Texas ties Kevin Cardinal Farrell, who's also the Camerlingo that we just talked about, of course, and Daniel Cardinal DiNardo, who we mentioned earlier. There's never been an American pope, and these two guys are Texas with Texas ties. So I want to ask you I mean you want to get into prediction or whatever. I don't think I've heard it would happen this time, but maybe will we see an American Pope in the near future and could they be from Texas?
Speaker 3:A great and interesting question, which many have speculated on. As always, the conclaves usually are I would even use the word wild, unpredictably wild. And the conclave who would have predicted in 1978 that we would have a pope elected who was not only a non-Italian in 1978, the first non-Italian pope in 450, some odd years, that not only was he a non-Italian, that he would be a Polish pope from behind the Iron Curtain Total surprise. Who would have thought that after him, you know, a very old German theologian would become pope?
Speaker 2:and then who would have thought after him?
Speaker 3:an Argentinian would become pope. Nobody could have predicted any one of the last three popes. I think it was a complete surprise. That's my way of saying. It's anybody's call when it comes to who could become pope. Could Cardinal Di Nardo come out on the balcony as the next pope? Could Cardinal Farrow? Anything is possible With the Americas.
Speaker 3:You know now Pope Francis is technically the first American pope. You know South American. There hasn't been a North American pope. We've had African popes before, because a lot of people are speculating, saying, you know, should we have an African pope? Well, we've had African popes before, but the last one was in like the 400s, 500s or something like that. So it's been a while.
Speaker 3:Could we have an Asian pope? Well, sure, I don't think we've had a Far East Asian pope ever in history. It depends on how you count Asia, because certainly we have Middle Eastern popes and things like that. Could we have a North American pope? Yeah, absolutely, the odds are the same. Is it unlikely? In my opinion, probably unlikely, and the reason for that is that the reality of it is that it's still. There is a geopolitical aspect to it, there is an ethnic, kind of regional aspect to it, but I think it would be too simplistic to think, for example, that all the American cardinals would vote alike, all the Italian cardinals would vote alike. All the cardinals are wildly independent on the way that they think and the way they vote. Would North American candidates be considered? I think, given the geopolitical moment in history, I think a lot of the world still has a little bit of a nervousness with some of the things from North America. So, given that, I think it would be highly unlikely, but the Holy Spirit has surprised us before.
Speaker 1:You never know, I suppose.
Speaker 2:Well, let me read a little statement here, and this is from Pope Francis's book that just came out, Hope, the autobiography, and it was. You know he wanted this to be printed after he passed away, but he had it published a little bit early and when I got the news that he died I was actually I had gotten up from bed and I was walking in the house and I saw on my phone this is about three o'clock in the morning the first notice that he had died, which I guess was about one o'clock Rome time, which was about the time he died. So it was very, very quickly thereafter, but this is from his book.
Speaker 2:I have lived a long life, longer than my parents, longer than my brothers and sisters, and it's a life I would not have even remotely imagined as a child. Gratitude and unworthiness are the feelings that accompany this reflection, these thoughts, and these are not just words, not at all. I feel unworthy. I feel ungrateful because, in the face of so much good that I have received, I have made so many errors, so many mistakes. I also feel fortunate, disproportionately fortunate, because not all of my brothers and sisters have had the same human fulfillment. Certainly, none of them died of hunger. None of them were held in disregard, but they had their difficulties, some of them more than others, with moments of suffering, separation, remarriage. I am a man who has been forgiven. I always am. During my life, I have had moments of crisis, of emptiness, of sin, periods of worldliness, and then the Lord was able to take me away from them. When I cast my mind back to these moments of existential or moral darkness, I wonder how I managed to survive. And yet I did. I survived, I continued my journey.
Speaker 2:Now he writes this at the beginning of the chapter on, where he talks about the conclave where he was elected. And what a surprise it was. And you know he didn't really believe that it was happening and people were telling him, you know, oh, you know, what do you think about this? Well, what does it feel like to be the next pope? And they hadn't even voted yet. I guess he was elected on the second ballot. But I think that that humility and that idea that popes are not perfect resonated throughout his papacy. That popes are not perfect. They make mistakes. They're human beings. You know they. They put on their pants one at a time, just like the rest of us.
Speaker 2:They put on their red shoes, one at a time, just like Scott puts on his red shoes shoes one at a time, just like Scott puts on his red shoes, and I think that that was really a nice, a moving thing. That he said is to admit that you know, I'm just a human being and I think a lot of times people forget that and people forget that about the church and people forget that about the Church.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's a beautiful reflection. What strikes me about it is just the human honesty that's there. Sometimes people misunderstand the papacy quite a bit and we Catholics don't help with that a lot of times. You know, the papacy is certainly the sign of unity. The papacy we believe has certain charisms that, for example, you know the jurisdiction aspect of it. Under certain circumstances there is a bit of fallibility, teaching. You know those types of things, but never does the Church say and has ever taught that popes are kind of these. You know demigods and perfect characters and things like that.
Speaker 3:St Peter, our first pope, failed miserably, denying our Lord three times, right there. Does it mean that God doesn't call him? You know, when I do reflections for my seminarians I teach at St Mary's Seminary here in Houston as well I always point out that you know it's interesting after Peter denies our Lord three times. I always point out that you know it's interesting. After Peter denies our Lord three times you would expect just a word of forgiveness from the Lord on the shore of the Sea of Galilee there, but what you get instead was that Peter go feed my sheep. So it's interesting, you know, when we admit our failings and things like that, god not only forgives us, but he gives us a mission to go forward. And I see the papacy as something like that where, yeah, it's made up of very fallible men, just like we are all fallible. In that sense we fail miserably and popes can't fail miserably. They can make bad decisions, they can, you know, interact improperly with people and things like that, and that's all.
Speaker 3:There there is a level of respect that we have for the office, but there also is a level of being able to call out a pope and to say, hey, very respectfully. This is not something that we think is wise or something like that. That's certainly there. You see that in saints like Catherine of Siena, for example, where she called out the pope who had been living over in Avignon, france, for several decades, and say, hey, it's time to come back to Rome. You can't just shirk your duties, you need to bring the court back over here, and she was influential in getting the entire papal court back to Rome, where they were supposed to be. So she certainly had a tremendous respect for the office of the papacy and for the person of the Pope, but certainly did not mince words and was very direct in urging and criticizing certain decisions that were there.
Speaker 3:I think the papacy in modern times is the same way. We can really err on the side of thinking that the papacy is something that's not special, or we can err on the side of saying, you know, folks can do no wrong either. I think any one of the popes would be the first to admit, like Francis did beautifully there hey, I am a human person. I, you know, did some bad calls. There are things that I can do better. Please pray for me, please assist me, but I am given this duty of leadership and I'm going to try to do the best I can.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was a fantastic statement that he read how, when Francis was elected, how surprised were you that he was elected, because you know, we had Benedict and then Francis and those were two very different in perspective and philosophy and things like that. So were you very surprised that Francis was elected.
Speaker 3:I was super surprised in the sense that I had no idea who he was. It's the. You know the formula of the announcement. You know I announced to you a great joy, we have a hope, you know. And then the, the, the, the the person's first name is called. What they call their Christian name is called out first. And so when he said, you know, you know, I had no idea. And so I'm trying to go through my list of cardinals, it's like, okay, jorge, but but then, of course, he's doing it in latin, uh, and so in the latin, you're like you're trying to translate it out okay, is this jorge in the latin, in the, in the spanish? So, is that george? You know, am I looking for a george, am I looking for a jacob, whatever? So I'm going through my list. I just couldn't find who this guy was. And then finally they said Bergoglio. Okay, so now we're looking at the last name and oh, the Cardinal, archbishop of Buenos Aires, in Argentina, honestly had no idea who he was.
Speaker 3:So this is where the Holy Spirit can surprise us. That could very well be the case again. We have people who are kind of favorites among certain news outlets and things like that, certain factions. Sure, you'll get that, but it could be somebody who's totally a surprise and totally that people just simply hasn't heard.
Speaker 3:Even John Paul II, although he was a little bit more popular during his time, was not known to most of the world. So when they said Harold, it's like okay, how many cardinals do we have? Pharaoh or charles? Again, you have the language thing that that you're dealing with, uh. And then when they said what he was like, who's what? He was, no idea what nationality he was. So complete surprise. I was very surprised with with bergoglio, was very surprised with. Quite frankly, I was surprised with benedict as well. Uh, because ratzinger tried to retire three times, uh, and he was done. He was technically his last duty at the Vatican was to preside over, because he was the senior cardinal, was to preside over the burial of John Paul II and then the conclave, and then he was like yeah, then I'm back to Germany to write my books and retire and hang out with some coffee and things like that.
Speaker 3:But all of a sudden God had other plans.
Speaker 1:That brings up something interesting that I want to ask you, because it is really, I find this fascinating.
Speaker 1:You know, we don't think about and we're talking about the Pope, and we're talking about Jean Red Francis's statement that, yes, he's the bishop of Rome, he's the head of the Catholic Church, but he's also a world leader and in the sense that he's a world leader, he has a lot of influence on what goes on in the world.
Speaker 1:And quite often in history we're historians in history a new pope has been the harbinger of a certain ideology of direction, not just in the church but in the world as well. I mean, I look back and I think, when you think of John Paul II to some extent I think he predicted the end of the Soviet bloc in the Cold War because he was such an anti-Soviet living in behind the Iron Curtain I think of John XXIII, who's the Vatican II, who's the resultant Vatican II somewhat predicted the reform of the 1960s that was coming on and stuff. So my question, I think, is do you think a new pope could be another one of these that's going to be a new direction? Or maybe Francis was the one that was the new direction and we're already doing that right?
Speaker 3:now. Yeah, so it's a great question. It brings up what you know again, I tend to see it in theological terms what we Catholics would see it as this interplay between nature and grace, that there is certainly a grace part of it. You know, the Holy Spirit guides the church, guides the Pope, and things like that. But each and every single one of the Popes, each and every one, a single one of us in our lives, brings sort of a natural nature aspect to it. So all of our achievements, all of our scholarship, all of our failings, all of our tendencies are brought to that office and to the duties that we do. Throughout history we had some incredible Popes who have brought that sort of natural perspective and their natural abilities at a time where the church really needed it. So, yes, while relying on grace, we want to look at popes, and I'm sure the cardinals are thinking this as they're considering who to elect. They're thinking, you know, who else brings a natural ability for this moment in time. So again, some of the popes that you brought up, you know, certainly we have Pius IX, back in the late 1800s or so, where you had the issue of Italian unification that was going on, all that geopolitical things. The loss of the papal states, that was going on. First, vatican Council, that was going on. You had kind of late Enlightenment thinking that was going on, kind of a rationalism that was going on. He was the right guy for the time. He was beloved by some, hated by the others on that geopolitical field.
Speaker 3:Followed by Leo XIII, who dealt with communism, dealt with the specter of communism, and a lot of the social teachings of the church came from Leo XIII because he was right smack dab in the issues of the Industrial Revolution that was going on. And then, of course, pius X, and we can go on and on Pius X, pius XI, benedict XV, pius XI, pius XII, through World War II. And then, also going into our own time, john XXIII, paul VI, john Paul I, john Paul II, benedict, and so you have this line and each one brings their very unique strengths and weaknesses to it as well. Certainly, john Paul II was a moment because, yeah, his interaction and his dealing with communism and many people said that it was actually no less than Mikhail Gorbachev.
Speaker 3:When asked what was it that brought down communism, he said John Paul II and his you know, support of the solidarity movement in Poland, things like that kind of his interaction with Reagan and Thatcher, and you know that trifecta that was going on really put enough pressure on the Soviet Union until it collapsed and the wall came down. What moment are we in right now? That's the main thing that the Cardinals are turning over in their minds right now. Is this a moment where, of course, relying on God's grace and the grace of the Holy Spirit, who is the one and what are the natural abilities that we would want our leader, in a very natural way as well, to bring to this current moment in time? It's a fascinating question and a fascinating thing to discern.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think you know, as historians, I really do think when we get down to writing and we're still coming to grips with the end of communism and that I mean we're historians we're always behind. I really think when we get down to writing the end of communism and how did that happen I think the election of John Paul II is going to go to the very top of that. I think when it comes, he is going to be. We're going to look back and go yes, this is when we could say it's about to happen.
Speaker 3:when he came and I've always believed- yeah, there's always that quip that people point to, that there wasn't Lenin who said you know he quipped. You know well, how many divisions does the pope have, how many troops does the pope have? And people said, well, it was kind of interesting because you know, about 100 years later, in the late 1980s, john Paul II had no troops. He had a rosary and some influence and it brought down the Soviet.
Speaker 2:Union. So what is the role of politicking inside the conclave? I mean, I get that they're, you know, they do prayer, they do mass and they met, I guess, as they were arriving before the conclave began. But is there the type of politicking that we see in like American politics? Is there the type of politicking that we see in like American politics? Is there that type of, you know, jockeying for position, building of coalitions? Do you have any idea of how that works?
Speaker 3:Yeah, the first the official answer and then the analytic question. The official answer is that in the document the University of Dominican on how conclaves are supposed to be done, it is forbidden to have you know kind of entering into agreements with favors and things like that If you vote for me, I'm going to make you the secretary of state, or something like that. That's forbidden under pains of excommunication. That's forbidden. What's not forbidden, however, and actually encouraged, is the conversation and discernment with each other that's going on, because the reality is that in order to get two-thirds votes, you have to have some conversation and should have conversations with your fellow cardinals, because otherwise there's no way you're going to get to a two-thirds vote. The complexity of this conclave right now that adds to it is that this is probably the first conclave in history that's, first of all, this big. I don't think we've ever had this big of a conclave before in history. Before conclaves were much smaller because of travel, because of things like that. Now, almost all of the cardinals who are but two who are eligible to vote are there and voting. Who are or but two who are eligible to vote are there and voting, and that's phenomenal. We've never had 133 electors before. That's phenomenal.
Speaker 3:The other complexity that's thrown on top of that is that the College of Cardinals, now more than any time in history, is more diverse, not only geographically, but ethnically, and from different regions and things like that. With that there's a complexity of communication. Some of these cardinals have never met each other. Some of these cardinals have had very limited interaction with each other. So within a period of about a week, week and a half, you're doing a task of electing the leader of 1.4 billion Catholics. How do you get up to speed? How do you make that connection that quickly? I mean, we've all gone to professional conferences and we all know, gosh, you know, in a week, how can you connect even with that? You know my fellow attorneys who are here.
Speaker 3:Imagine people from across the world who don't necessarily speak the same language. You know usually Italian, some of them who can function in Latin, although that's less and less. So you know you're trying to search for a common language even to be able to do it. So that's complexity that's going to be very interesting to play out. Is there politicking? Is there human nature being what it is? The idea is that, yeah, there are, you know. Hopefully not that politicking in the sense of what's forbidden in university divinity creatures, but I hope that there would be in a sense, coalitions, in a sense agreements, not as an I'll scratch your back, you scratch mine, but agreement with hey, this guy we think is the strong candidate, this guy is what we need at this time. Those are conversations that really can and should be going on.
Speaker 1:This brings up the language thing. Just very quickly. I keep coming to these questions. If I'm remembering correctly, you said you were Italian. Most of the cardinals probably speak Italian. I remember that John Paul II spoke Italian, francis, even though he was from a Spanish-speaking country. I believe he spoke Italian correct and I know Benedict, to most of the cardinals more than likely is that Italian probably the language that they communicate in.
Speaker 3:Yeah, now that Latin has kind of lost its favor just a little bit, although Latin is still the official language of the Vatican. But so many cardinals, so many bishops now, even though they understand and can read Latin, it can't function conversationally in it as well. So there are a lot of translators and things like that. So the Vatican is very good with providing instant translation and things like that, but once you get to closed doors you don't have a translator there anymore. That could become quite complex.
Speaker 3:Italian has become kind of the lingua franca for those who operate and have associations with the Vatican.
Speaker 3:So if you're in a Vatican office, it's almost expected that you can function in Italian just to be able to get through the day-to-day stuff, because there's so many things in Italian.
Speaker 3:In my own field of canon law, you have to be able to function in Latin, because the official documents are all in Latin. But there's a certain level of expectations that you can function somewhat, at least at a reading level, with the Italian as well, because you'll get correspondences from the Vatican in Italian or in Latin, things like that. So, yeah, italian has become the lingua franca, if you will, the default. That being said, this is another Francis thing he's appointed so many cardinals that are not associated as closely with the Vatican. So a lot of these bishops who could probably stumble through, or these cardinals who can probably stumble through their Italian don't have a fluency in it, and so you're searching for okay, would English be more of a fluency, would French be a little bit more of a fluency, or Spanish, or something like that. That becomes a very complex matter, and we'll see how that plays out during this conclave.
Speaker 2:Well, that's a wrap for another edition of Talking Texas History. We've been talking with Benedict Wynne, the Dean of Students and Associate Vice President, university of St Thomas here in Houston. He's a canon lawyer. He also holds a degree in musicology From the University of Kansas, master of theological studies From the University of Dallas, also a degree in canon law From Catholic University of America, juris Doctorate From Hamline University School of Law and a doctor of ministry In biblical exposition From Neshota House Theological Seminary. So very good, very interesting discussion on popes, how they're chosen, especially in light of the election of Robert Prevost. Cardinal Prevost is now Pope Leo XIV and first United States-born pope, second pope from the Americas. So it's going to be interesting, as we move on, looking at the history, what this means. We know that the Pope has roots and family from the New Orleans area as well as in Chicago, of course. So it's going to be interesting moving forward. So thanks a lot for listening For Scott Sosby, I'm Gene Preuss. This has been Talking Texas History. We'll see you again soon.
