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Talking Texas History
Talking Texas History
The Battle of San Jacinto and Manifest Destiny
The Battle of San Jacinto might be the most consequential 18 minutes in Texas history that hardly anyone talks about. While the Alamo casts a long shadow over Texas history, it's San Jacinto that actually secured Texas independence and set in motion events that would reshape North America forever.
Join Gene and Scott as they examine why this pivotal battle deserves to take its rightful place in our understanding of how modern Texas emerged from the battle we call "the first armed action of Manifest Destiny." The ripple effects of San Jacinto would ultimately help reshape the course of not just Texas, but American history itself.
This podcast is not sponsored by and does not reflect the views of the institutions that employ us. It is solely our thoughts and ideas, based upon our professional training and study of the past.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Talking Texas History, the podcast that explores Texas history before and beyond the Alamo. Not only will we talk Texas history, we'll visit with folks who teach it, write it, support it, and with some who've made it and, of course, all of us who live it and love it. I'm Scott Sosby and I'm Gene Preuss, and this is Talking Texas History. Welcome to another edition of Talking Texas History. I'm Gene Preuss.
Speaker 1:I'm Scott Sosny.
Speaker 2:We have not. We've been bad, we haven't done been consistent.
Speaker 1:Don't say we've been bad, we've been busy. How about that?
Speaker 2:And I've been sick. You know I was on and off sick for about three months and I got sick again last and it would come and go. I would get to feeling better. Then I would. Another way. I say it was allergies, although my brother-in-law says, well, it sounds like long COVID. But knock wood, I don't think I've had COVID, but I don't know, I don't know, it could just be you're getting old. Maybe it was COVID.
Speaker 1:There's always something worse, right.
Speaker 2:Right, there's always something worse, but anyway. So we're back on track and I want to say we had a really good interview with Brian Stone talking about Jewish history in Texas, and that's something we don't normally talk about, we don't see a lot about, and so it's good to have, you know, fresh and new perspectives there's all that, all kinds of aspects of texas history that we don't hear about, and that's one good thing to get it out.
Speaker 1:but one aspect of texas history we hear all about all the time is the revolution, and the texas revolution I guess what would you say? That's the most popular topic ever in Texas history, probably, I mean.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, in my experience, when I was growing up and I was going through grad, through school, graduate school, people say, well, what are you majoring in history? Well, what do you like so? Well, I'm doing Actually, I wasn't doing Texas history, I was doing just history. And people would say, well, tell me about the Alamo. And I was like, well, you know, since San Antonio, what do you want to know about it?
Speaker 2:But, you know, that's all. The revolution looms large in people's minds and you can go like I've gone, you know to England and to other places and people will ask me about the Texas Revolution or the Alamo.
Speaker 1:It's definitely has become the leading topic, I think, amongst the people that think about Texas. See, the cowboys and the Alamo is what comes to people's minds when they think of Texas. First off, I suppose, Maybe coming later, it'll be Landman here in the next few years. Everybody watches that all the time. But one thing aboutxas revolution that I've always thought gets short shrift is this whole ador let's call it adoration for the alamo.
Speaker 1:Almost you know right, I don't know the daughters of the republic of texas called it the shrine of texas liberty. That comes about almost in a religious sense but that to me always seemed to overshadow what I think was a much more consequential part of the Texas Revolution and that is the Battle of San Jacinto, or, if you're a good gringo, battle of San Jacinto, because the final battle of the Texas Revolution, and I think it's that way because of the effect that it had. Of course, texas gaining independence, that's a big thing. We're Texans it's a big thing, but it's a consequential battle in the whole breadth of American history and I don't think people realize that that it is a very important battle when you talk about it in the whole breadth of American history.
Speaker 2:Are we just saying that because we're Texas historians?
Speaker 1:No, we're not saying that. There are reasons why that is the case, which is for the next 26 minutes or so. We'll just cut.
Speaker 2:Okay, let's talk about that. You're absolutely right. We both teach Texas history and I'll ask my students Allegedly. I'll ask my students. I say, well, what do you know about the Alamo? And everybody you know, they raise their hands and they'll give me some information about it. I say, well, what do you know about San Jacinto? And I'll just get blank stares and I'm sitting in a classroom that's what?
Speaker 1:20 miles from the battle.
Speaker 2:I tell them, I in fact, fact, I've gone over and opened the window, on the windows that face to the east. I said look straight over there. Now you, you can't see it because there's buildings in the way, but but it's flat right, so you almost could. It's like living in love 60 years ago. You can almost see the san jacinto monument from where we sit. We're on buffalo bayou, san jacinto monuments at the end of Buffalo Bayou. Yes, you just look east, about 20 miles, and you've seen that. I tell them, you drove by an interstate tenant and you've seen that monument. What do you think it means? And they don't know.
Speaker 1:It's amazing, it's absolutely amazing to me that we have forgotten all there is to think about San Jacinto.
Speaker 2:But it's as you say, you know, the Alamo and the. Our adoration and our, our love of that story has overwhelmed, I think, the landscape, it's like those buildings that have been put up right that you can't see the, the monument is, we can't see San Jacinto because of what people have built up around the Alamo.
Speaker 1:The giant shadow cast by the Alamo. Right, the giant shadow cast by the Alamo. That's a good book. Title In the Shadow of the Alamo.
Speaker 2:Yeah, people don't realize that we're coming up with gems on this program.
Speaker 1:That's right. All 12 of the people that are going to hear this are going to just be so enlightened. It's unbelievable.
Speaker 2:All right. So, scott, tell us You're really kind of more the expert on this period. I mean, living in Nacogdoches, you're surrounded by stuff about the Texas Revolution. So what happened on April 21st?
Speaker 1:1836? Happened on april 21st 1836. Well, texas, I guess, gained their independence, I suppose on that battlefield between uh buffalo, uh, between buffalo bio and uh the marsh reads on the other side, where sam houston confronted the mexican army, uh for the first and only time, uh, when he was the commander of the texas uh army, that came about. That know, there's a lot of speculation about how that battle came about and why they came to be there, what Houston was trying to do. But what you can't speculate, you know, it was a, it was a decisive route. It was one of the most decisive battles ever fought in American history Because, in the sense when I say decisive, I mean because it was such an overwhelming victory by the Texian forces. The battle part of it, as far as the two armies engaging is over within 18 minutes, which is an amazing amount of number. Now, the killing went on for hours afterwards and the killing, in that regard, was the Texians killing, basically killing Mexican soldiers they came upon and you know, some of them they captured. But the final statistics are overwhelming About 600 Mexicans, a little over 600 Mexican soldiers killed, 200 Mexican soldiers wounded and they captured over 700. The whole force of about 1,500 Mexican troops was accounted for in those statistics. Texans lost nine dead, 30 wounded. I mean that's a decisive battle. That happened about that when they came on. But you tell stories about it that is unbelievable that you hear about the Battle of San Jacinto and that 18 minute coming across. They caught the Mexicans by surprise.
Speaker 1:Santana obviously did not believe he thought the Texians would attack on the morning of April 21st. Both the armies had arrived there and pitched their camps on the separate sides of the prairie there on the 20th. The Texans had arrived the prairie there on the 20th. The Texans had arrived late in the afternoon on April 20th. The Mexican army was already there and Santa Ana was sure that the Texans would attack on the morning, because that's when you attack is on the morning of April 21st. But they didn't. So he was convinced that well, I will attack them the next morning. If they're not going to do it, we'll just rest and I'll make the attack the next morning, on the 22nd. But about 2 o'clock in the afternoon Houston ordered the advance of the Texian soldiers across the prairie and they caught the Mexican army completely unaware. Santa Ana had not sent out enough tickets to Texians. Come across. The grass was high enough where they could hide into it and they were right on them when they actually surprised them and the battle was enjoined After most of the initial exchanges came on and the Texans were essentially rounding up Mexican soldiers.
Speaker 1:The killing was unbelievable in that day and the Texian army was enraged by what had gone on at the Alamo, at Goliad, and they were indiscriminately just killing Mexicans. They came across, they were killing them as they were down in the water trying to hide I mean literally like shooting fish in a barrel. They were killing prisoners. They came across. There's one story about a Texan bashing in the head of a young Mexican drummer boy about 12 years old, who's already had both his legs broken, to kill him. So it was very much of a. There was a lot of rage on that battlefield that day, all taken out, which we could parse that and actually get into how that is for many. But on that day Santa Ana was eventually captured, of course, and that led to him ordering the Mexican army to leave. I shouldn't have listened to him, but he did the Mexican army to leave Texas and Texas essentially gained independence, if that's what you want to call. What happened after that, although we can discuss how that was on many occasions. So there you go, on April 21st 1836.
Speaker 2:All right, let's talk a little bit about this. You had mentioned this lopsided victory and some of the animosity that was held there. The animosity that was held there and people kind of point to that, especially in modern times talk about the racism and this killing of unarmed or incapacitated Mexican soldiers, some of them who were surrend or had surrendered, and in fact there are stories of some of the officers and some of the, you know, of the of the Texian officers trying to stop the killing and trying to say Nacogdoches is Thomas Jefferson.
Speaker 1:Rush tried to stop the killing of that young Mexican boy that I mentioned, and the Texian soldier threatened to kill him if he didn't let him go ahead and go through with it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you know there is, we talk about that. But you know, as you said, this battle cry of remember the Alamo, remember Goliad, you got to understand, we've got to understand, and I'm not you know, I'm saying, you know, saying we should ignore that or paper over that. But on the other hand, we don't want to ignore that is that there had been atrocities on both sides and Santa Ana was looked down upon by some of his own soldiers, some of his own officers, for the way he had behaved at those other battles.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, what is it? Three of the officers, or at least two, uriah and Fili Sola, would become opponents of Santana political opponents of Santana back in Mexico later on, and neither one of them, I don't't think, respected Santana that much. On this, uriel was incensed essentially by the order that Santana had given him that he was to execute all the prisoners that he'd taken after the Battle of Toledo Creek at Goliad. He was a good soldier and he understood that Santana was his superior officer, so he carried that order out.
Speaker 2:But, it's hard to say it was the same way to write a Goliad.
Speaker 1:Yeah, filosola was. Yeah, filosola Urias. At Goliad. Filosola was with Santana at that time. That's Filosola, of course, was Italian. I love this story.
Speaker 1:Our old mentor, cam Martinez, told me this story one time. He said Filosola was Italian because he was a mercenary from Italy. And so Cam used to say you know, mexico? Everybody says Mexico lost Texas. Mexico didn't lose Texas, italy did. Filosola should have not listened to Santana continue the war, should have not listened to Santana continue the war. But probably Filosola decided to retreat because he didn't want to be up there anyway, because he didn't support what Santana was doing.
Speaker 1:But yes, I mean atrocities. You know war is. You know they call it the fog of war, and it's kind of. You know, we don't things get. People believe certain things, I suppose, and certainly when you talk about the mass killings at San Jacinto after the battle, certainly there's American racism towards the people of Mexican descent. It's fueling some of that. There's also, though, some sense that they had been wrong and that they, you know, you know it's one of those things. The Texians, I guess, think they're fighting for independence. But if you look at it from a Mexican perspective, these people are committing treason, right. And what's the penalty for treason it's death Right. So in Santa Ana's mind, I suppose, and many Mexicans, if they executed everybody at the Alamo and everybody at Golia, they're just carrying out the sentence for treason for revolting against the country about this. So it's one of those situations where we can think of a lot of things on both sides and come up with the same answer.
Speaker 2:Well, I think one of the dangers and you know we were always, you know, warned about this idea of presentism. You know this is what they call the historian's dilemma is that, you know, we look back at the past and atrocities in war or just bad behavior, and we tend to judge it, and we've got to judge it in their own time frame, you know, and in the heat of war, you know, thank goodness you and I have never been in war, but you know you've got to. I think that this probably happens. It's not the things you want to write stories about, or people have written stories about much in the past, and so, you know, it reminds me of the old Civil War. That saying was it Sheridan or Grant maybe said that it's well that war is so terrible, or we would grow fond of it.
Speaker 1:It was actually Lee. Lee said that.
Speaker 2:Lee said that. So see, you're the military story, not me. You're the military, sorry, not me, but this thing is that we romanticize war and battles and we realize we forget these are human beings who are in stress and in terror and fear for their lives, and we sometimes, in those situations, do things we may not do in more rational times. And it's easy for us as people, sitting in an easy chair and you know, in an air conditioned building, looking at documents and saying, well, they were wrong about this, they did this wrong. It's hard to do that, it's hard to know when you're in the heat of things.
Speaker 1:Well, sure, and you know, you know, I think, something we perhaps don't think about when we study these things, particularly on the texting side these guys are not professional soldiers.
Speaker 2:This is another good point.
Speaker 1:They're militia members. They're you know, they're volunteers, which is probably some of the whole thing of some of the officers trying to, you know, bring about a sense of order on the battlefield to these soldiers that they were, by this point, they had overcome by emotion and everything else when they were doing what they were doing. That's what Santana does. I remember Santana was a political animal and what he was doing in Texas was that was a political act to stop any sort of opposition to his dictatorial rule, and the best way to do that is through fear, just like he had done in Zacatecas before he came to Texas. I mean, the Texians should have known this is what he was going to do, considering they knew what he, they knew what he had done in Zacatecas.
Speaker 1:On this, so, yeah, the sense of the battle was something else.
Speaker 2:And your comment there about these were not trained soldiers for the most part and that some of the officers were, and they were appalled at the behavior of the undisciplined person with arms, and that is something we don't think about. But this, that age of Jackson, this was across the military, uh, and there are stories about it in histories of that period, you know, and look at Sam Houston.
Speaker 2:I mean, he was the, he was the commander of the army, in name only you know just because of the, the, the, the, the government has said okay, you're the commander, but nobody listened to him.
Speaker 1:He, you know, he had, he had advised don't be here, let's move out of here, and and they ignored him because, uh, they were more democratically inclined the leadership of the texas revolution might be a good case study of how this is not leadership when you look at how this is a chaos that was going on around that.
Speaker 2:Let's talk about, you know, let's talk about after the battle. I mean, certainly, you know we're happy at the way things turned out. I mean there was a lot, there were a lot of problems. I mean the discrimination against Mexicans in general after the revolution continued, and we don't talk about that very often. But you know, we look at the Mexican population, a lot of people left as a result of the revolution. But I want to get into what happens later. It wasn't at the battle that the independents was won and, like I say, let's talk about that in a little bit. But what happened at velasco? So a little bit further south, uh, on the coast, uh by freeport today, of course, uh, santana was captured.
Speaker 1:Uh, at the uh san francisco. He was captured and the sentiment amongst these not regular soldiers in the Texian army was that they wanted to, you know, using their emotions and whatever else to immediately execute Santana. Well, houston knew better than that, because he knew that this was a viable chip, because what Houston understood was probably the soldiers didn't was that essentially from the moment, but the moment he was captured, because he was captured, santana was no longer the president of Mexico, therefore he could not issue. He was also no longer the commander of the Mexican army, because you don't obey orders from a captured commander. But Houston understood that he was a good political little chip to use in negotiations and so we had to keep him alive.
Speaker 1:Uh, after David, uh G Burnett, the president, the interim president of Mexico, shows up, they move Santana to Velasco to get him away from people who wanted to kill him. And even then they had to put him on a ship out in the middle of the of the bay off of Velasco to keep people from perhaps kidnapping. And they had Santana. Eventually, they drew up two different treaties, to some extent, or two tenets to what would become the Treaty of Velasco. In the Treaty of Velasco Santana signs and it says that Texas gets its independence. And also Santana promises to help the United States. I mean help Texas become recognized by the United States.
Speaker 1:How they thought he could do that, I don't know. He's opposed, but the thing about it is that we always forget about the Treaty of Velasco. First off, santana signs that under somewhat of duress he's a prisoner at that time. That can't be valid. Be valid. But also mexico is. Folks, I mean santana may have dissolved the, the, the states and, and dissolved the constitution of 1824 and whatever, but mexico is still a republic, that that operates under basically the same rules as the united states. Right, a treaty is not valid until the mexican congress actually uh, authorizes that treaty and votes on its authorization.
Speaker 1:And they refused to do so. They did not. The Treaty of Velasco is never enforced as far as Mexico is concerned. So as far as Mexico is concerned, texas does not get its independence in 1836. They recognize Texas as still a sovereign part of their territory. And Mexico goes further, of course, and says any attempts they know what's going on by the United States to annex Texas, we will consider that an act of war. Did Texas get independence there. I don't know if they did or not.
Speaker 2:You know this was something, and Kyle, about seven, eight years ago, within the past 10 years, texas State Historical Association meeting and I was talking to Steve Harden and talking about the Texas Revolution and Steve goes did Texas really get its independence after San Jacinto? And I said, well, of course it did. He goes, really. He goes, look at what happened. And it wasn't until then that you know what happened and it wasn't until then that you know, following this line of reasoning, where you're going. The treaty and the so-called secret treaty that Santa Ana signed, that he was going to go back and help get this thing ratified. Never did. You know, under the rules of international law, as you're saying, he was a prisoner of war when this was signed. It isn't enforceable. And then Mexican government didn't ratify it. So the treaty was basically ignored.
Speaker 2:And then, if we look at the history now I tell the students, look at American history. You know we had the Texas, the American Revolution, and it was the Peace of Paris. You know the Peace Treaty it was ratified. It was accepted internationally that the United States was independent. None of that ever happened for the Texas Revolution. And in fact in 1842, you get Mexico, you know, sending costs up a couple of times and he, as far as San Antonio, right, and you know he's, and he's, look, I'm just checking on the territory, right, I'm, you know, checking things out. Because, as out, because, as far as mexico was concerned, texas was still their colony. Uh, no other country recognized that we were independent. Now, we behaved, we acted independently, we acted as if we were independent, and mexico just kind of left us the united states doesn't always.
Speaker 1:the last act that jackson's doing is he's leaving office in 1837 that he recognizes Texas. You know, that's you know, and he does that because he can't be opposed, and that's one of these, these things that we probably should get into is, again, this stuff is the effect is that Texas and the results of the Battle of San Jacinto had on American history and what's going on in the United States.
Speaker 2:So this is 100% correct and you're right, it's something we don't really focus on very much, and I might just say that maybe I'm guilty of that too, whether you know. How does it affect the United States? I think these are great topics that historians could look at and should look at, but again, is it because they're overshadowed by the Alamo that we don't see that much? Paul Lack did some writing on the texas republic period, but, uh, and he just came out with a book a couple of years ago, uh, following up on it, but other than that, there really hasn't that much not be gene that we.
Speaker 1:It's a disconnect. I think. As texas historians, we get too wrapped up in that. To use our, our, our great title metaphor, we talked about being in the shadow of the Alamo sometimes, and when we talk about the Texas Revolution, we keep it so Texas-centric and we talk okay, what's the result of San Jacinto? Well, we go into the Republic of Texas. That's the direct result that we talk about is the result of San Jacinto.
Speaker 1:What we forget is that, though, this is a larger cloth of American history as well, because, first off, we say, oh, this revolution started and run by Texans. Well, there was no such thing as Texans. Then, really, who was it started and run by Americans, citizens of the United States that had come to Texas. Therefore, and why did they come to Texas? What's the whole reason for all those who came to Texas? They gained territory. Right, that was the number one thing. They gained land. They're looking from the moment they get here, they're looking this is, you know, expand, if you will, american influence. We start talking about how manifest destiny and the expansion of territory is like a governmentally sponsored program, but in American history it's not necessarily that way. American people are out in front of their government quite often doing these things and the government's falling on behind. Well, they're already there. We better do something about this. So these are Americans who are advancing American territory, if you will, moving into Texas and starting this war to gain territory? Yes. To spread the institution of slavery? Yes, they did.
Speaker 1:I happen to think that's somewhat of a secondary thing. It's part of the Texas Revolution. I will never say it's the number one thing of the Texas Revolution, which puts me at odds with the number of current, if you will, historians about this. I think it's part, but it is. I call it and I do this in class and I say it's the first armed action to manifest destiny. That's what the Texas Revolution and San Jacinto is, because it expands. It's expanding American influence, expanding American territory. That's why Mexico reacts the way it does. We don't want these Americans here, because guess what? It's going to lead to the United States of America, right at our doorstep. And what are they going to want to do? Well, next thing, you know, they're going to want New Mexico and Arizona and California. Well, guess what happened. As soon as that happened in Texas comes in, what's the next step? Well, we want all of it at this point. And of course and that's in the Mexican war, is the a war? It's our first war of manifest destiny. It's war, it's our first war of manifest destiny. Uh, it's, and they're all part of the same.
Speaker 1:The mexican war doesn't start. Probably I know we're not supposed to ever be a historical, but the mexican war doesn't start if there's not a san jacinto, if there's not a republic of texas. Right, that's what starts the mexican war. And the mexican war doesn't start. And you don't have the mexican session. But also, guess what? That? What does all that mexican session start? We start debating over the, the, uh, whole influence of slavery in the west and it reignites the slavery held, the annexation of texas in 1836. In 1837, uh, when texas starts talking like, hey, we want to be part of the United States, the northern congressmen stand up and go, no, we're not going there because it's adding another slave state and the whole balance of power. So that debate had been tamped down somewhat after the Missouri Compromise. Texas reignited it all over again and starts that in. And that's why it's such a fascinating thing and I think as Texas historians we lose that sometimes.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, then you need to go into the discussion about the Knights of the Golden Circle, and that's another group that has fallen off out of the history books, and these were people you know, and John C Calhoun was one of them. They wanted to expand slavery, and so I'm with you. I don't think slavery was the primary cause, but it was an underlying theme because it affected everything. It affects so much, so yeah, I agree. It affects so much, so yeah, I agree.
Speaker 1:Well, and these Americans?
Speaker 2:I think it's safe to say most of them almost all of them come from the South.
Speaker 1:They just assumed that slavery would be legal. They just assumed that it would be legal and that's what they brought in with them, and Mexico had essentially accommodated them every time on this.
Speaker 2:Well, it goes back to what you were saying earlier is that, you know, most of them were Texans and you're right, Most of them were Southerners who came in and what they wanted to do, you know I think Mary Teran says this right they have their constitutions in their pockets and they, they wanted to create a recreate. They wanted to recreate the governments, the institutions as they knew it, because that's what they had come from and I think that's that's that's what happens and was it?
Speaker 1:Mexico chose to populate Texas with the exact Texas was the exact worst people they could have thought of to populate Texas, in that they brought Americans in, in particular Southern Americans, because there was and they were in this area, there was never going to be any assimilation. These people were not going to become Mexican.
Speaker 2:Right, and that's what Mary Turenne says, right.
Speaker 1:That's right, and so he said it yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's in that report that that actually helps start. You know the conflagration because there's a reaction to that. And then you get the law of April 6th 1830. No more immigration, no more slaves, and that was overturned. Another thing that we're often missing in our history books that law was overturned, but it starts the ball rolling.
Speaker 1:I think Absolutely, absolutely. So there you go. That's why we think and we talk about San Jacinto, what we should never forget. Yeah, okay, it's significant in Texas history, it's very significant in American history, and I'm talking American history writ large. Think about. Have we ever thought about Gene? Have you ever thought about the importance and the place of San Jacinto and the Texas Revolution in Mexican history and how it affected Mexican history? I don't know. I wonder how they teach that in Mexico and what is the take on that? That's something I would love to see somebody explore and somebody explain to me about that.
Speaker 2:Well, I think that's something that we'll have to do at a different time, and we ought to get somebody on here who does that right, who teaches it from the Mexican point of view Sure, that would be absolutely A great idea, scott. We're at the end and we normally ask people what do they know? But we already know.
Speaker 1:We already know, we know nothing.
Speaker 2:We're like Sergeant Schultz and Hogan T Rose we know nothing. Well, very good. Well, welcome back. We're going to get the show back on course and set aside some time to do some more recording, so hopefully we're going to get our shows out a little bit more regularly, once again every two weeks or so. Scott, welcome back and good to see you.
Speaker 1:Thank you and all our listeners. Tune back in, Get back in the habit of listening to us. Thank you very much All right, have a great one.
