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Talking Texas History
Talking Texas History
Texas Documents, Part 2: The Travis Letter
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Continuing with our series on important documents in Texas history, we take listeners inside the Travis letter and explore how a brief plea from a besieged commander helped turn the Alamo into a powerful legend that still shapes Texas identity and American memory.
If you care about Texas history, public memory, or how documents shape nations, this conversation delivers depth without the dust. Subscribe, share with a friend who loves the Alamo—or loves to argue about it—and leave a review telling us what the letter means to you.
This podcast, sponsored by us, does not reflect the views of the institutions that employ us. It's only our thoughts and ideas based upon our professional training and study of the past.
SPEAKER_00:Welcome to Talking Texas History, the podcast that explores Texas history before and beyond the Alamo. Not only will we talk Texas history, we'll visit with folks who teach it, write it, support it, and with some who've made it. And of course, all of us who live it and love it. Welcome to another edition of Talking Texas History.
SPEAKER_01:I'm Gene Breutz. I'm Scott Sudsky. Gene, we've started back up in the new year where we're actually going to, you know, get back on track and actually have episodes every, you know, every when we're supposed to every two weeks. Uh, and we've been talking about your keys to Texas history uh that you're gonna be doing for a class. So what do we have up next for everybody?
SPEAKER_00:Well, as I said last show, that this we might ruffle some feathers. We're gonna be stepping on some toes, maybe, talking about issues that people get very personal about. And I think this is interesting. You know, I I don't think we we we think about this very often, but people, you know, as much as people hate history and they don't like taking the class, people get very passionate about history. And nothing makes people more passionate than talking about the Texas Revolution. And we're gonna be talking today about the Travis Slutter.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, but nothing, yeah, in Texas, right? Uh the if you haven't ever visited the Alamo, it's like a slight in your background that you haven't ever been. I remember uh I think my dad used to try. No, my dad used to take us to San Antonio like every year, uh, and we had to go visit the Alamo. I've been to the Alamo like a pilgrimage. It was sort of like a pilgrimage, I think, to go see the Alamo uh uh about this. And it's uh so much so that I don't really go anymore.
SPEAKER_00:Uh no, you grew up in Midland. In Midland? San Angelo. Okay, so West Texas. So I I lived in New Bronfels, and so for us it was a uh you know 30-minute trip to the Alamo. Um, there wasn't as much traffic back then, so maybe 20 minutes. Yeah um you know, so it was a 20-minute trip to the Alamo, but but I can tell you we only went maybe two, three times to the Alamo.
SPEAKER_01:Surprise, but I've been there more times than you, Gene. You've been there more times than me. Many times. I was just there and actually at Christmas time. I passed by it, I didn't go inside. Uh, were you looking for your red bike? Uh that that's right. Uh, where's the damn basement to the Alamo? That's what uh we've had her on the show, right? Misty Lanham, who works uh at the Alamo. That's right. She talked about that's the question that you get used to get from people when she was lead tourists, and it was the one that used to infuriate her, but there is no basement to the Alamo, right? It's amazing that everybody would remember that. Pee-wee Herman has a legacy, right?
SPEAKER_00:That's right. Um so let's talk a little bit about the Travis letter. And and for those, and there's people, you know, for of the dozens of people, the tens of people that listen to our show, some of them are international, right? And so some of them may not have, and and and there's even Texans, right? And and this is one of the reasons I'm teaching this class, is for people who may not have a background in Texas history or have forgotten it since seventh grade. Let's talk about how we got to the Travis letter. So, for those of you Texans steeped in this, give us a few moments to get everybody up to speed.
SPEAKER_01:That's there you go. And I think we'll start maybe. Gene, it's a short letter for one thing. Should we read it? Should I read it? I think everybody knows it. Why don't you read it? Why don't I just read that? He sends out on February 24th, 1836. So it's at the beginning of the siege. Uh, the Mexican army under Santana has just arrived uh and put the Alamo under siege. So he addresses it to the people of Texas and all Americans in the world. Fellow citizens and compatriots, I am besieged by a thousand or more of the Mexicans under Santana. I have sustained a continual bombardment and cannonade for 24 hours and have not lost a man. The enemy has demanded a surrender at discretion. Otherwise, the garrison are to be put to the sword if the fort is taken. I've answered the demand with a cannon shot, and our flag still waves proudly from the walls. I shall never surrender or retreat. Then I call on you in the name of liberty, of patriotism, and everything dear to the American character, to come to our aid with all dispatch. The enemy is receiving reinforcements daily and will no doubt increase to three or four thousand in four or five days. If this call is neglected, I am determined to sustain myself as long as possible and die like a soldier who never forgets what is due to his own honor and that of his country. Victory or death. William Barrett Travis, Lieutenant Colonel Commandant. P.S. The Lord is on our side. When the enemy appeared in sight, we have had not three bushels of corn. We have since found in deserted houses 80 or 90 bushels and got into the walls 20 or 30 head of beeves. There's the letter. That's it. It's a short letter. How long did it take me to read that? A minute and a half, something like that?
SPEAKER_00:Exactly. It's short. You know, when we were talking about this before, um, there was a time when in public school, children would memorize and recite this. It is, I mean, you talk about we talk about in history sometimes. You know, we have these kind of uh like in the Bible, Genesis myths, these stories, these legends, these origin stories. This, for Texans and Texas history, is one of the documents in the Texas origin story.
SPEAKER_01:I think you're exactly right, Gene. In fact, to some extent, it may be the beginning of the Texas origin story because of this letter. I mean maybe this is, you know, I'm I'm putting out a supposition here uh on this. But while the Alamo is iconic, and of course, it's become, you know, a shrine to Texas history, that's how they describe it, if they will, and it's the whole devastation of the entire fort, and everybody is killed, and that's become this thing. But I ask you, would it have become the iconic concept that it is? This whole shrine, this entire somewhat for many people, uh, not saying that either one of us, I totally agree with this, but for many people, it is a distillation of this is what America is all about, and this is what the Alamo was all about. Would it have become that if this letter had not been written? If you didn't have this letter to refer to?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's a great question. And you know, and and this is something in graduate school, um many of my colleagues used to do. We would entertain, usually over adult beverages of some sort. Um, these what ifs in history? What if uh what if this didn't happen? What if this happened? What if what if something had happened to this guy and he wasn't around? Would would this still have happened? Um that so this is a great question. Is, you know, so not only was this document so important, but what happened if it wouldn't have existed? I don't know if we didn't we didn't know that it existed. Obviously, it got out, obviously it was around. Um, but just the the repercussions and the effect that it's had on on people who look at Texas history has been tremendous. And I'm gonna say this. Um let me let me let me say this. Is it really this letter just looking at the words? Not if you didn't know the context, would it be that profound?
SPEAKER_01:That's a good question, also. That's we're doing a lot of navel gazing here, Gene. A lot of people are right now turning off their podcasts and stopping the listen right now, uh, as we do this, uh as we sound like we're in a graduate seminar. But that's what makes history fun, all right? That's what makes it fun. And I think that's an absolute fantastic question, also. Uh, when you think about it in that context, that because this does, I mean, this is because I I always uh also say this to add to this: would we have known, would we have cared who Travis was if he doesn't read read this letter? You know, if he doesn't write this letter, if we haven't read this letter about Travis. Uh and we uh in the history and what we're supposed to do, and we think about it, is what kind of document is this? What does it represent when you read this is what you're supposed to do? And if you look at the context in this, and this is something I've always thought about this document uh in this letter, is that think about the time period. This is 1836, is when this is going on. It is we are at this point uh getting into a long run of the presidency of Andrew Jackson and this whole advent of the Jacksonian era in American history. And if you study history, you know the Jacksonian era, it's named after Jackson, it's not because of Jackson, it's this almost second generation coming into uh prominence in American history. The revolutionary generation has gone, they're fading away, and we're redefining what it means to be American and what American values are. We're moving more towards direct democracy, away from the very distant democracy, and even democracy of the Founding Fathers. We're moving into direct democracy, we're adding states, we're moving west. We are becoming a very different nation and a nation that is more celebratory, if you will, of the concept of the common man and this whole extreme patriotism that's going on. And when you read this document, this is a Jacksonian document, Gene, don't you think? I mean, this is the values of Jacksonianism.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and let's, you know, let uh let's before we get too academic here, let's explain what we how we understand what that means. And as you said, you know, second generation, the revolutionary generation was fading. But these are the children of the revolutionary generation. So they are they are not defining democracy like the founding fathers had to, right? They had to the founding fathers, they had to kind of define what democracy meant because they came from governments, they came from systems that were aristocratic, right? They came from where you had a king, and they're they're saying, no, we're gonna be doing something different. We see the problems with monarchy, so we want to have people have more say, more input, more control over their government. Government originates in the people. Society originates in people rather than having one person make all the decisions, and so they're they're defining it, they're they're kind of figuring out the rules of the game. Andrew Jackson's generation were the first persons to actually play that game, right? They're born into it. Um, and so they're not having to define it, they're just having to start playing the game, and so that's a difference. That is a big difference. But you know, uh, one of the other things, uh, around this same time, there's an aristocrat from France named Alex de Tocqueville, and he comes and does a tour of the northwestern part of the United States, and he writes about democracy in America. Now, I've only read parts of this, uh it's you know, really early 19th century, but what he was saying about the about what he sees as the American character is about this generation, right? Because he's he's a child of the French Revolution, he saw the upheaval of the revolution and and democracy taken to an extreme, and so he's looking at how Americans are dealing with this, and so this is a a great uh I want to say uh a great in that it's interesting, a fascinating time, because as we Americans are trying to figure out who we are and what we're doing, and if we look at this letter in that light, it's really revealing. And you know what you were pointing out earlier, as you were reading this, God is on our side, he writes in a postscript, right? God is on our side, and that in the earlier parts of the letter, look at what he's saying about how he sees our mission as Americans. I think that's a fascinating thing. And you know, interestingly enough, one of the guys that uh De Tocqueville meets on a steamship as he's traveling around the United States is a Sam Houston.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's right. Yeah, and you say, I mean, when he says the Lord is on our side, the implication is he's not on their side. Uh and that is uh very much how Americans by that time had come to view their role in the world. You talk about uh Tocqueville, and which is it's so fascinating. I often wonder did De Tocqueville observe this uh new birth of democracy in America as he went around. Was he observing, or did he help birth it as he published this and the ideas that he published it? Because you know, it's de Tocqueville who warns about the dangers of the uh of a majority, the tyranny of the majority, I think, is what he called it. I don't think it had ever been. I mean, Madison somewhat articulates that in the Federalist Papers, but not as clearly as Tocqueville does. But he's very, very, and that's part of his point of going to America, very, very much the potential for centralized nepotism, even in a system like the American system that was still, yes, it was a reaction, the founding father's reaction to aristocracy, but it's still sort of an aristocracy in its earliest stages. But Tocqueville, and he's in the West, he's traveling in the West in these new areas and these frontier areas, and I don't want to spare time like Frederick Jackson Turner here, but you know, he's finding that it is in these areas is where this new concept of democracy is being invented. And these who, you know, ideas of of association that are crucial for liberty, uh, as he said. And easily, you know, he doesn't want isolated individuals that the state can control. Uh, and so he's talking about ideas, but also about civic virtue. Tokville, you know, the founding fathers talked about civic virtue, but they didn't, if you uh a lot of people might not like this, they didn't they didn't practice it all the time because they were you know actually entrenching their own aristocracy, if you will. But right in the West, Popeville, he said, No, this is what they're doing. They're making sure it isn't. And Travis is a child of the Westerners. He grew up uh he born in South Carolina, but he grew up a lot in Alabama. He was part of that movement west. He's part of the people that Poteville is going around and talking to. So this document, maybe it's a De Toteville document as well.
SPEAKER_00:You know that, you know, it's funny. Um academics like us, we we always turn things back to our own. So, you know, you and I are Western historians, among other things, uh, and other things that we've been called. But we are Western historians, right? And so uh whenever you were saying, oh, this is the you know, let's look at the at how Jackson Turner, or you did, or not look at how Jackson Turner, but I'm gonna say, let's let's look at what Jackson Turner said. And I think you're right. So looking at this West, what did he say of the West? Now, when he's talking about the West, Frederick Jackson Turner is also talking about New York, the West in general, right? And he says that unlike Europe, what the West did, what the New World offered was a place to rewrite our future. And that we took the the the good, the best parts of Europe and we recreated it here in the new world. That's what you know, that's basically what Jackson Turner is saying. And so we you know learn from the past mistakes and are writing anew. If we look at this document in that same way, that that somebody who's influenced by that attitude, it's very it it makes it makes a lot of sense.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, maybe, maybe that's what this is, Gene. Maybe it's also a ternarian document. When we say, you know, when we start talking about that, I I can't help but hear our old mentor right now, Paul Carlson, if he's listening to us, ah, these son of a bitch is there resurrecting that guy. Uh he told us in he told it me us in class one time. I was in a class with him. He said, every time we try to bury that son of a bitch, his arm reaches up out of the grave and comes back again. Uh he'll deny that he said that, but I think I've got it on tape somewhere. But that's also another thing about this letter that has to be brought up too. Who is Travis writing this letter to? Also, he's writing it to the people just like him. He's writing it to this is a letter not to he says to the people of Texas in America, I don't think Travis is writing this to other people in Texas per se, as he's writing it to people in Louisiana, in Arkansas, in Mississippi, in Alabama, and Georgia, the places he grew up, he knew exactly what would appeal to them. He knew exactly what would arouse their passion, he knew exactly what might get them to come to their aid. But there's something else that I think we should talk about. Okay, go ahead, Gene, and I'll break it up.
SPEAKER_00:Let me ask you a question here. Do we know, has anybody, I mean, this really isn't, I'm not as familiar with this period. Do we know who got this letter? Was it published in newspapers? I mean, I'm sure that somebody has done a study on on it. Yes. If not, if not, graduate students, listen up.
SPEAKER_01:There has been studies, and that is exactly what happened, Gene, is that it, you know, it grew in thing after the battle, of course. Uh on this afterwards, yes, because it was published.
SPEAKER_00:This is the 24th.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, because it was published, you know, newspapers.
SPEAKER_00:Because on the 6th, right? So uh six, so 10 days later. Yes. 10 days later it was all over. Ten days later, Travis was dead. Many of the defenders had had been executed or killed in battle. Uh, there were the people who had, you know, uh enslaved men and women and women and children who had been in hiding in the Alamo were set free, were released. Um but the people who saw the battle and people who were defending it, like Travis and and um and others were dead.
SPEAKER_01:That's right. And that and this is it. This is their account. This is the only account from those people, I guess, who were killed that gets out on this. So you trivial, and that's what it does. It rise fame to some extent. It is what makes the Alamo the icon uh that it is after it comes out, uh, when we you do this. Um, and that just, I mean, when you think about two, uh as you read this document and you think about uh the uh you know, this is one of those things you do, where you parse the words. Think of the words that that that Travis uses in this document that jump out at you. And that's one thing, it makes it a Jacksonian document, and I think it's when we were talking before this, an enlightenment document, in that if you just parse this out and talk about, he talks about liberty, patriotism, everything dear to the American character. I mean, that's a that's a phrase where he's saying, this is what America is all about. This idea of America. That's what he's saying. That's what he's and he's playing to this. And he asks them to come to our aid because they're all gonna kill us. In other words, the implication is there, they are completely against the ideas of America. They're completely our enemies against these ideas of liberty, which has become somewhat of the Theme of the Alamo that you push, you know, you know, and we're not going to get into it here. We may in a future uh cast the whole concept of the Texas Revolution, what they were really fighting for, and what they were against. But this letter is what but essentially frames this is a battle between the forces of liberty and the forces of despotism. The defenders of the Alamo represent that concept of liberty. And Santana and the Mexican forces represent that concept of a despot, of a dictator. And they're gonna stand up and fight to the death to do this. When you think about that, they'll think about the battle. Did he have any other choice but fight to the death? Because Santana had said, we're putting it to the sword. If you surrender, we're executing you anyway, which was a military mistake on Santana's fault. Because I don't, you know, I don't know this, but I would suppose if there'd have been conditions and they could have saved their lives, the defenders in the Alamo would have surrendered. Because they knew anyway. Yeah, we're gonna, but because Santana has said you're gonna die no matter what, we might as well take as many with us as we can.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:But because of this letter, when it's over with, think about the image that it creates. Here were these the Alamo Centeps has 187, so I'll go with 187. Here are these 187 defenders of liberty and patriotism who are willing to die for that right. Well, again, make them heroes.
SPEAKER_00:You know, uh going back to what I was saying earlier, my thought earlier was that these are the children of the revolution, the Americans who had settled in Texas, the Texians. So they're fighting not only for themselves and their own lives, but they're fighting to defend what has become the United States, right? This is what he's saying, right? The American character. Everything dear to the American character. Come to our aid, liberty, patriotism, hurry, come with all dispatch. And so we're we're fighting for the United States. We're fighting for American values. And that is a powerful message.
SPEAKER_01:That's what the message of the letter that gets out is, that that's what makes this so iconic when it comes out. And I would say to you, Travis exactly knew that. He knew what the benefit of those words would be. He knew how this would be perceived. Perhaps, I, you know, this is a supposition you probably shouldn't make. Perhaps Travis knew he was gonna die. He knew that this was a a lost cause. They weren't gonna win. This is gonna be the last communication he would ever have with the outside world. Let me make sure I go out in a blaze of glory. Uh, and I and I actually capture all the depth of all the things that will make a difference to these people. And uh, I mean, after all, I mean, if we want to talk about personal character, William Barrett Travis was not did not have much personal character.
SPEAKER_00:Well, he leaves his wife, right? He abandons his wife and he lives as a he lives in um uh Annawak essentially as a bachelor, right? So this was one of the criticisms, and even people of the day were criticizing him. Is like you left your wife back home, and you came over here, and you're I guess, I guess he had other relationships.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, well, you read his diary, it reads like, I mean, I've always said this reads like you know, mid-19th century porn. When he's describing his conquests, uh, to some extent.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and and certainly one of the reasons why, you know, you get into the consultations, and and one of the reasons why is because um Travis actually comes to prominence in Anahuac because he is demanding that Juan Bradburn Davis, John Davis, the the Mexican commander, uh give up escaped, uh runaway, uh enslaved people, right? To enslaved people. And he's like trying to get them out so they can be returned. So there's a lot of reasons why people today might think Travis was not um uh uh a virtuous person, and maybe that is true, but you know, because of his infidelity to his wife, because he was on the side of slavery, okay. But he's appealing in this letter to American virtue.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and and I think that's you know, we talked about the West and Turner's idea of the place where you could reinvent yourself. Well, that's what Travis was doing. He was essentially running away from bad debts and leaving his wife, and he was reinventing himself, and he did, to some extent, reinvent himself uh in Texas. And so he's casting himself at that point, I think, as the Jacksonian man, as I'm emblematic of this era, I'm emblematic of this new concept of democracy and freedom, and I'm so willing to die for it uh to this. And so that, I mean, think about it, Travis couldn't have done a better job on this. Of, I mean, he gets to be considered a hero. I mean, if he doesn't write this letter and yeah, he gets killed and he's a common, how much do we know about William Travis? I mean, really and truly, as he make the spot in history, if you want to say that if this letter does not get out, if he's not remembered by this letter. So I guess in that regard, Travis accomplished what he wanted to out of that.
SPEAKER_00:Interesting. Well, you know, this is an interesting time, and and uh, and there's a lot of controversy. I mean, look, uh, we we were talking the other day. Why what happened to Stephen F. Austin, the father of Texas? Um, and you know, I and we were talking about Stephen. I I always feel that Stephen F. Austin gets the short end of the stick in the immediate history uh of Texas because he's not regarded um by many of his compatriots at that time as being that good of a leader. He's not, you know, they he runs for president, he doesn't get elected. Uh they kind of send him over to to Washington to be an ambassador to as as kind of, well, we don't really want him here. We don't really think that he's good for leadership. And I think largely because he supported the Mexican side, the Spanish Mexican side, early in the uh conflict that becomes into the Texas Revolution. And so they don't really want him around.
SPEAKER_01:No, and that's part of the, you know, there's this whole division. The division in Texas in the run-up, of course, to the Texas Revolution was between those who had been here for a long time and those who were fresh arrivals. If you always always said what you do is you frame them Austin on one side and Houston on the other, and they're perfect representations of the different factions in Texas at that time. Houston doesn't arrive till 1832. Well, Austin's been here since 1820. Austin essentially, he was a young man, um, very young man when he first arrived in Texas. To many uh ways, he came to his adulthood living in Mexican, Texas. And much of what he became and what he felt holy was living in this Mexican province. Houston doesn't. Houston grows up not only in the United States, but as a hardcore Jacksonian in the United States during this whole period of this movement towards democracy and this whole concept. Certainly, people like Houston are going to look at the Mexican system and look at the way it works as something that is despotic. And yeah, Santana seized control and made a symphonous thing. And we can't get into the whole in and outs of Mexican political history, but that's not something that actually would be that foreign to Mexicans at the time, what Santana did uh uh in that regard of who he was. But for the Americans growing up in that period of Jacksonianism, yeah, this looked like the moves of a dictator. So Houston don't see that. Austin, on the other hand, would see the nuances of what's going on in Mexican politics. But also Austin had a lot to lose uh uh if if the system did go around. Now, of course, Austin comes around to after he is in prison in Mexico, he comes around to independence and decides that's the only that's the only sort of solution we have, but it's a long time.
SPEAKER_00:I don't think he I don't think Austin by this by that point would disagree that Santa Ana was a dictator. I mean Sam was he was a dictator, right? He said, I'm taking over. I'm you know, the constitution that I held put in place, it's not important. I'm gonna run this country as I see fit. So it really was. He you know, he really was. There's no question about it. Um and um I I think that with the time Sam that that that Stephen F. Austin, he tried to be um, he tried to live up to his promises. I'm going to be a Mexican citizen. He learned Spanish. Um, I mean, he was very close. Um, he was very close not only with the Americans, certainly, but also with many of the uh of the um Mexican uh families uh who were in San Antonio. And and um I I think I think that what happens is I think poor Stephen F. Austin is torn between his allegiance and his promises and his upbringing. And I think that finally he's forced to make a decision. Um and I think it was that that that wavering, which I think was was honorable, right? Um because he was a realist. He saw some of the problems, he saw what was happening, and and you see it in some of his writings is that, you know, first of all, he he realized that slavery was an issue and was going to be an issue. I wish I had done more recruiting outside of the South, because slavery has become an issue and as a wedge and was used against them by the Mexicans.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. Yeah, um, and that's somewhat of the theme, Gene, what you just talk about. Of course, that's the theme of our friend Greg Cantrell's book on Stephen Faustin, which folks, if you want to actually read a book, the the best book on Austin, uh, pick up Greg Cantrell's uh biography of Stephen F. Austin. It's outstanding. And actually count, and that's one thing that's so good about it, is it is Greg captures all of this texture of who Austin was and sort of what he's struggling with at this time uh as we do this. And so I I I guess as we begin to wrap this up, which um I love these conversations, of course, is maybe Austin, we could say Austin and Travis are two completely different people. Stephen F. Austin would have written a much different letter, I think, as it comes out than what Travis would have written. This is not to I I don't want anybody to think that, and I know some people will, we're trying to demean Travis because we're not, but we're trying to place him in the context of who he was at this time. Travis was a young man, uh, grew up in a certain place in a certain time, and he reflected those values. And this document reflects the values that he learned from from when he grew up.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely, absolutely. And and reflects not only Texas and the people who had migrated to Texas, but it reflected that early American, that early Republic generation, uh very, very beautifully. And um, you know, whether or not you agree with it, whether or not we agree with Travis, I mean, it is a document of the times.
SPEAKER_01:It is. It's a it's a profound document. So I think that that's the thing. So well, Gene, we probably stepped on toes this time, but we may be gonna move into stepping on even more toes next time we're here. Well, because what are we gonna talk about then?
SPEAKER_00:Ah, we're gonna be talking about the Civil War era.
SPEAKER_01:Oh my gosh, we are gonna get in trouble.
SPEAKER_00:You know, and people have gotten into, I'm sure, fist fights over this. Um, and here's what we're gonna be looking at. The document we're gonna focus on is John Reagan's Fort Warren Prison Letter. If you have a chance to read it in the next couple of weeks before we talk about it, I encourage you to do that. It's in you find it in the appendix of his memoirs. Um we're gonna be, of course, looking at just an excerpt from that. But that's what it's it's a it's a you know, we talk. I wanted to look at documents that I think reflect the era. So we're gonna be looking at that and probably making some people um who may not agree with us ruffle their feathers a little bit. But that's that's what it's all about, isn't it? That's right.
SPEAKER_01:Let's see, what's create what these days all we want to do is create controversy to get readership. What they say, clickbait, right? That's right.
SPEAKER_00:All right, Scott, great talking with you again, and we'll see you soon. Bye-bye.
