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Talking Texas History
Talking Texas History
Texas Documents, Part 5: The Cleburne Demands II
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In this episode Scott and Gene wrap up their conversation on the Farmer's Demands. Farmers wanted company workers to get paid in real money instead of company scrip, stop railroad rebates that favored the rich and powerful of their day, end convict leasing, and force the country to look honestly at wages and living conditions. That sounds like a modern platform, but it’s Texas history and it’s rooted in the 1886 Cleburne meeting of the Farmers Alliances. We pick up the last demands from the Cleburne platform and unpack what they were really aiming at: making American politics answer to working people when corporations and concentrated wealth feel untouchable. Many of these ideas we associate with Progressivism, New Deal liberalism, and a stronger federal role in the economy grow out of this Populist revolt.
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Disclaimer And Show Setup
SPEAKER_01This podcast is not sponsored by and does not reflect the views of the institutions that employ us. It is solely our thoughts and ideas based upon our professional training and study of the past.
SPEAKER_00Welcome to Talking Texas History, the podcast that explores Texas history before and beyond the Alamo. Not only will we talk Texas history, we'll visit with folks who teach it, write it, support it, and with some who've made it. And of course, all of us who live it and love it. Welcome to another edition of Talking Texas History. I'm Gene Preuce.
SPEAKER_01I'm Scott Selsby. Gene, we didn't finish with populism last time.
SPEAKER_00I know. Can you imagine we had so much to say that we just kept talking? Our friends would not believe that.
SPEAKER_01I'm just shocked. I mean, it's not like our name is Monty Monroe.
Cleburne Demands Return And Context
SPEAKER_00Well, last last time, in case you missed it and you want to go back and download it, I encourage you to do that. We're talking, well, we're doing a series looking at some, I think what are in some important documents in Texas history. This last episode we started talking about an event that happened in 1886 in Cleburne, Texas, and that was a meeting of the Farmers Alliances. They issued a series of demands, 16 demands that they wanted to get people to vote on, to change the legislatures, the U.S. government to change American politics as it stood to make things more equitable for people who farmed.
SPEAKER_01And I think that that's what a lot of this episode will be, folks, as we get into this. They accomplished that goal. So I think that's what we'll get into today, Gene.
Labor Statistics And Worker Visibility
SPEAKER_00All right. Let's let's pick up where we left off. Number uh 12. We demand that the establishment of a National Bureau of Labor Statistics that we may arrive at a correct knowledge of the moral, intellectual, and financial condition of the laboring masses of our citizens. Further, that the commissioner of the Bureau be a cabinet officer in the United States government. Scott, this actually happened. So but you know what yeah, this is an interesting thing. Because this had not been done before, right? Let's really figure out. Let's figure out who's working, how many people are working, and what workers, what labor actually contributes to the United States.
SPEAKER_01That's right. And it's a it it's a it's a this is another one of these little bones tossed to organized labor to make them join up with the farmers and to connect the workers. And the idea to some extent, why you have a Bureau of Labor Statistics, can you do this? They're actual numbers everybody can trust, right? To do this about wages and way of life and cost of living that we can realize. And it's a way, it's it's almost a sunshine logging. If the government says, look, they're paying these people 10 cents an hour, but the things they're producing are making millions of dollars. Somebody's getting ripped here about this, and it's the worker. This was a way to make people more aware, really, of how much these big corporations were ripping everybody off.
SPEAKER_00Especially the worker.
Company Scrip And The Company Store
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00We demand, number 13, the enactment of laws to compel corporations to pay their employees according to contract in lawful money for their services, and the giving to mechanics and laborers a first lien upon the products of their labor to the extent of their full wages.
SPEAKER_01Another something else where we're trying to let things know about how corporations are exploiting the workers. Look, you you think that's funny language, I think, to compel corporations to pay their employees according to contract and lawful money. What so many of these corporations were doing in those times. And a lot of those in Texas. You paid your money in company script.
SPEAKER_00Shits, shits. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And and where could you spend that? At the company store. At the uh you know, from from from the company uh supply house. Right. So it wasn't, you didn't, this is not real money. Fuck that Gene, there are stories of people into the 1940s in East Texas that lived in the deeps of East Texas and they'd worked for these timber companies for their whole life. They'd never seen actual real United States money. Right. All they'd ever seen was this script money that gets you know the Tennessee Ernie Ford song uh song, 16 tons. And what do you get? St. Peter, don't you call me because I can't go. Owe my soul to the company store. That's the company store. He owed them so much money, he can't leave, he can't die.
SPEAKER_00The thing about the company store, too, it was it was like if you bought all your groceries at a convenience store. Because that's what it was, right? It was a store in the community that the company had established. And it sounds like a good reason, right? It sounds like like a good thing. Uh because my company may be out in the deep woods of East Texas. There's no other city around, no, no other store around. So I'm going to we're going to build a company store. Okay, but the prices were usually higher. The company made all the profit, right? And the only that was the only place that was going to take your company credit. It was like, you know, it's like paying people in gift cards to your own company. Right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's exactly what it was. So here, here's here's our company script that you can only spend the company store that you'll give back to us. It's like not getting paid at all. Exactly.
Railroad Rates And Regulation Push
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So that was that was the big uh complaint of that one. Number 14, we demand the passage of an interstate commercial law that shall secure the same rates of freight to all persons for the same class of merchandise, according to distance of haul, without regard to the amount of shipment. To prevent the granting of rebates, to prevent the pooling freights, to shut off competition, and to secure to the people the benefits of the railroad transportation had reasonable cost.
SPEAKER_01Farmers in those days particularly looked at, first off, it's a whole nother thing. You had the federal government and the state governments giving so much land to railroads. Also, you had the federal government basically granting money to people to build these railroads. So essentially, the people are building these railroads. But then the railroad companies owned them. And what were they doing? If you're Andrew Carnegie and his steel company, and you ship millions of pounds of steel by the railroad, he was being charged an extremely low rate by railroads in order to get his business because he's in bulk. But if you're a small farmer and you have to pay to ship your produce someplace quickly, you're paying an extremely higher rate than Andrew Carnegie is. He's a you know our equivalent of a billionaire. You don't have any money. This was to them was completely unfair. They in their mind, we paid to build these railroads and we're getting ripped off by this.
SPEAKER_00And it's going into somebody else's pocket.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So they're calling for a government agency to regulate railroad rates. And in Texas, eventually, with the election of James Stephen Hogg in 1892, he takes this at heart and he says, we're going to have what? And what did he establish? The Texas Railroad Company.
Convict Leasing And Labor Fairness
SPEAKER_00Right. So think about that. I mean, so this is 1886. Six years later, 1892, we actually hire somebody and establish this. Right. So, and and of course, we do have a interstate commerce clause that does today regulate all this. So this is actually a demand that was met, another demand that was met. Number 15, we demand that all convicts be confined in prison walls and the contract system be abolished.
SPEAKER_01Now, this, you know, you and I Where's Don Walker when you need him?
SPEAKER_00Where's Don the late Don Walker wrote a book on this, right? So people may not understand convict labor anymore, because we got rid of that was another thing we got rid of about the eight 1940s. Um finally got rid of it all. Here's what that did. If you were a large plant and you know, I'm in Houston, we we had this all the time. Large plantation owners, sugar or cotton or whatever. Um, and you needed workers. Well, we didn't have enslaved people anymore, but we there's all these people who committed crimes and sitting in jail, ain't doing nothing. Let's go get them. So they would put out a bid, the prison systems would accept bids on a specific number of workers, and then you got them. Now, there were lots of problems with that. Who was policing them? Who was feeding them, housing them, clothing them? Well, the companies were. But were they doing a good job of that?
SPEAKER_01Of course not. And also, this cheapens labor costs because they're not paying them near what they would have to pay a worker to do that. And that and to again, it's I mean, somewhat this would these all these go back to to these farmers and these small freeholders and even small businessmen that somewhat joined the farmers' alliance. This wasn't fair, right? This was not the American idea of equal opportunity.
SPEAKER_00Number 16, we recommend a call for a national conference to which all labor organizations shall be invited to send representatives, uh men, to discuss such measures as may be of interest to the laboring class. That's interesting.
SPEAKER_01And of course, that's what happened, right? They they went to Ocala, Florida, uh in this, you know, right after this, not too long. 1890 was Ocala. 1890. 1890. Yeah. When they meet in Ocala, and it's that's the earliest they can call all the the north, you know, all these alliances, the Southern, the Farmers Alliance really all gets together. Uh, and they actually, the Colored Farmers Alliance is formed. It's formed right before this, these documents are written. Of course, the the Texas Farmers Alliance did not allow the Colored Farmers Alliance to attend this meeting uh because they, you know, we we may be progressive, but we're not racially progressive. But eventually, O'Cala does form and they get these together, and what they come up with, of course, is that we need further organization. And uh, 1890, it's we'll we'll see what we can win in some offices of this, and it's not working because they're trying to work within the party system itself. In other words, let's try to get some in the South, it would be this, some Democrats actually elected that agree with our agenda. So it was, you know, trying to, but they couldn't get them nominated. The old boy network in the Democratic Party made that not happen. So then they call for another meeting in 1892 in Omaha, Nebraska. That brings the Southern Farmers Alliance, the Northern Farmers Alliance, various Greenbacker and Free Silver units together, some uh some labor union organizations, but they mostly chose to stay away. But and then they eventually formed the People's Party or the Populist Party. And guess what? All of these things here, most of them become part of the platform of the People's Party.
Texas Populism’s National Impact
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, it's golly Scott, that was real history. That was real history, right? Uh you heard it here first, folks. We talked about real history in this episode. So that was that was that was a real class. I mean what I think is is I mean, important about this. What I think is important about this is that Texas in the Farmers Alliance sets the stage for the development of the largest third party in American politics in American history. And that is the demand. Because really, the the Southern Farmers Alliance was the largest of the alliances. And a lot of it got started here in Texas, and a lot of it met here in Texas. And so um as we've seen in these 15 demands, there's a couple of other resolutions, um, you know, like the newspapers and publishers.
SPEAKER_01And the subtreasury plan that we're not going to get into today, right? But that was a big part of it as well.
SPEAKER_00So but but but the fact that this is actually a very crucial role in American politics for the next several generations, and it starts right here. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_01And that and that's an important thing, and to some extent, and uh as we start analyzing this, because what the populist party in its populist party is like a comet. It burns bright, it's the biggest third-party movement ever in American history, and in a lot of states, it looks like it's going to flat take over, you know, um, and it's going to eliminate uh one of the parties. In the South, it looked like it would do away with the Democratic Party. And it would become the the next party, and that scared Democrats to death, which is one reason why Jim Crow laws uh are enacted later. But when you look at what the tenants of this that happened, the tenants of the populist party that they're calling for, and almost all of this is a reaction against big business, the large concentration of businesses that to these farmers, they sort of like we they are starting to run our government. I mean, there's the famous story, right? That during the uh panic of 1896, and you know, the uh country is bankrupt. It's gone bankrupt. Uh not this is 92, right? Uh the country's going bankrupt. And JP Morgan basically says, with just money out of his pocket. Okay, I'll fund the government for the next year, you know, to buy all these things. But that's how much the money was concentrated in people's hands. And so these agrarians in these movements in the populist party said, we've got to come up with some reform movements that blunts the power of this huge concentrated wealth. Because this wealth is subverting democracy, it's subverting, subverting Republican principles uh on this. And we got some, and essentially, and this is one of the big things, and one of the best books on this. If you want to read on this, uh, our friend Greg Cantrell's book, The People's Revolt, Texas Populist and the Roots of American Liberalism. Dr. Cantrell basically says in that book, you know, everything we call liberalism now, the tenets of liberalism, the tenets of what is people to the to the, if you want to call, you know, left of center uh in American politics, in American uh philosophy and political ideas, they're born with the populist party. This is where it comes from. And this is our still that uh you know that that ideology still persists. And he's he is, I think, dead on exactly right.
SPEAKER_00Well, so we know Lyndon B. Johnson became president during uh after Kennedy's assassination, and uh the the Great Society embodied and uh many, many liberal uh traditions in the United States that uh many many of them existed up until fairly recent times. But who, where in what kind of environment did Lyndon Johnson run? His father, Sam Ely Johnson, was elected to the state legislature as a populist.
SPEAKER_01As a populist, exactly right.
SPEAKER_00So yes, uh this this lays the ground. And it's not just the Democratic Party that changes by adopting many of the and this is what this is what happens to the populist party, right? The populist party gets absorbed because the the na the two big parties, the Republicans and the Democrats, absorb their stances. They take, they adopt them. So I don't have to vote for the populists more. I can vote for my regular Republican, or I can vote for my regular Democratic candidates.
Wealth Concentration Then And Now
SPEAKER_01That's exactly right. And you know, and it happened that that process happened in Texas early. We mentioned uh James Hogg earlier. Hogg, a Democrat, though, he saw the the the Farmers Alliance first and then the the the People's Party, he's elected in 1892, as uh being a threat to the Democratic Party, that they could gather this coalition together. And thus Hogg starts adopting a lot of these populist ideas within the Democratic Party, and you add race into it, and the whole concept of the white party for the Democrats keeping uh blacks out who were at that time the African Americans were the that they they were Republicans, right? Because that was the party of Lincoln. Hogg put those together, although he might appeal to African Americans at that time, but that was a way to make sure the Democratic Party stayed in power. So they co-opted a lot of these populist ideas, is what they did. But you know, there's something else, Gene, I think we could talk about. We you you hear a lot of things people talk about populist ideas, and he's a populist, right? And yeah, in a generic sense, that refers to the idea that they are trying to appeal to the mass of people, right? Right on this. But there's something else about I think you think about why do we have to have a populist movement happen in this country every now and then, right? You can make the case we've been over a hundred years since having one, although I will say the New Deal was somewhat populist, although in a more needed way, uh, of that type of a movement. So what what is it that fuels that?
SPEAKER_00The stagnation of the two national parties.
SPEAKER_01That's one thing. I will totally agree with that, but another is concentration of wealth. When you have this concentration of wealth in just a few hands, right? And guess what's happening now, Gene?
SPEAKER_00Well, and this it's it's exact we see it's very similar to what was going on in the 1890s, right? The stagnation of the parties, but why? Because people felt that the elected officials and those two major parties had become complacent and corrupted by money power, as you're saying.
SPEAKER_01And that was a Tweedledee and Tweedledo, right? Yeah, the two sides of one coin, right? And they didn't see any difference in the two parties. They were both corrupt and and beholden to the concentrated interest.
SPEAKER_00And so people reacted against it and they looked for new candidates who could appeal to what everyday people were concerned about. And and you're absolutely right. I mean, every once in a while we we get this, and it's it's largely because people perceive that the uh other candidates um uh are are really just two sides of the same coin, as you said, and and that they all represent um the oligarchy, the money at interest. And in the United States, we have a strong uh a strong um thove, a a strong attraction to democracy, uh naturally, and and we perceive that as allowing little people to get ahead.
SPEAKER_01That's actually right. That's that's what our essentially whether it's true or not, right? That is the the inspiration that the nation's founded on. That this is an equal opportunity for everyone. But when people begin to look and see that that's really not the case, and particularly when you see this concentration of wealth, and particularly we see things that were what did they do to be able to get that much? That rubs people the wrong way. And politicians exploit things like that. I my point being, I think Gene, I would not be a bit surprised if we're not about to see in this country another populist type movement take place. So we might see something like that in the next few years happen.
SPEAKER_00It's um yeah, you know. We don't I don't want to be the one who says, well, history repeats itself.
SPEAKER_01Because it doesn't.
SPEAKER_00It doesn't. But you do see trends that people tend to do things in similar circumstances. And we're seeing another uh set of circumstances where people are beginning to have these same fears. You're right.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I believe that you kind of just relate it to what's going on today and put it back then in even a maybe a more magnified uh nature back in those uh that that time period. And you understand the and that's one thing I think you that we can say about this popular movement, that you have to understand when you read those demands and you write this document, the anger that people felt. Oh yes, the hopelessness that they felt of not being able to change their condition.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01And that was what was fueling this.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, this I mean, this is this is outrage. Um and people are fed up, and this is what prompts this movement. And politicians uh of the populist party were able to to capitalize and to adopt some of these things. And and to be honest, you know, I always have my students when we explain this, and I I always say, Do you think these are radical demands? And nobody ever says, oh, that's a that's a crazy demand. That's wide-eyed, wild-eyed, you know. But in the 1890s, people were eyebrows were raised. I can't believe you would propose that. I can't believe anybody would do this. So it's amazing how we how we change, right? In the 1890s, uh, 120 years ago, this would have been outrageous demands. Today, they're we don't think anything of them.
SPEAKER_01Well, no, we probably look at most of these demands and go, hey, that isn't that what we already have.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly.
From Populists To Progressives To New Deal
SPEAKER_01Because, of course, then this is if we want to carry it on the historical arc, the populist revolt, and I think that's ap uh apropos to call it the populist revolt, flamed out, right? The People's Party ceases essentially to exist after 1896. Uh, and at the election of McKinley uh McKinley when William Jennings Bryan is nominated by both the Democrats and the Populist Party, and he goes down to a very, very solid defeat uh to the Republican William McKinley. Now we could hash a lot of things on how poor of a candidate uh Bryan really was, but uh the interesting thing is that the ideas in this document and the various ideas coming out of the Omaha platform and uh in that convention in 1892, they become a big core of the larger progressive movement that grows out of this period. A progressive movement has some of the same goals to break the concentration of big business and the concentration of wealth, but they're going to designate a bigger role of a federal government in making that happen. Right. And uh to this, and they do that by adopting a lot of the populist ideas uh to make that happen.
SPEAKER_00And it sets the stage, and and although um, you know, for what we call the populist presidents, and starting actually starting with William McKinley, although he didn't get a chance to see much because he gets assassinated, but Theodore Roosevelt, William Howard Taft, all of these presidents are influenced by populist and somewhat by progressive ideology.
SPEAKER_01Be it either I'm against them or for them, but they are influenced by it because it is becomes a huge political movement and prevails. I you know, I think you can make the case, particularly because you draw the direct line from progressivism after it goes progressivism goes into a downturn in the 1920s, as the Republicans particularly turn against Roosevelt and progressivism and make a return back to McKinley style, if you will, uh more gilded age type uh policies, with uh the election of Harding and then following that up with Coolidge uh on this. But then, and one of those surprising things, if there was a Republican in that period who said, hey, let's go back to Roosevelt and progressivism, it was Herbert Hoover. But Hoover, of course, is taken down by the Depression. But then you see the rise of the New Deal and Franklin Roosevelt's style of progressivism, which was a direct line from populism as well, because it picks up on that. So what we call the New Deal Order, New Deal Order, which will come to actually dominate American politics through well, I'm gonna say it ends in the 1980s. Uh, I guess it's still, you know, I guess some uh other jury is out on whether that's the case. It's a direct lineage to populism, which is essentially uh Greg Cantrell's thesis in his book. Yeah, that you can draw that line to that. And that and and that's why I think he's exactly correct.
Reading List And Episode Wrap
SPEAKER_00Yeah, Cantrell is uh, you know, did a lot of work in that area, and he's a great writer. And so um I would also look at his uh other book. It's a smaller book and part of his dissertation, uh Feeding the Wolf, um, which looks at kind of the race issue in populism and how that fizzled and eroded populism. Um let's look at a couple of other suggestions on textbooks besides Greg's book. Uh we're gonna go back, we're gonna be old school here. So uh the the more the most recent of the old books uh is The Democratic Moment.
SPEAKER_01Sure, that's exactly right. And that's and that's a that that's a very, very good book. It is a little, what's that? It's a little old. It's a little old.
SPEAKER_00It's a little old. You know, from the 1980s.
SPEAKER_01So it's a little dated. I would go even back further than that to look at some things because we talked about, of course, in particular Texas, Roscoe Martin's the People's Party in Texas. Yeah, that was a great party politics. That was published in the 1930s. I mean, yeah, Martin was probably a populist. Uh he probably was there while some cities. That's right. Uh, and uh, so that would be uh one uh that you should look at to get this basis of. Uh of course, we talked about Greg's book also and stuff, but I would also add another friend of ours, uh and a fine historian still teaching at Collin County, Kyle Wilkeson's book, Yeoman, Sharecroppers, and Socialists, Plain Folk Protest in Texas. Kyle looks at mainly East Texas farmers on this. Essentially, a lot of it is centered in the Greenville area in that county area up there. But he looks at how, and that's this is the sheer, this is this is the genius of Kyle's book, is he shows their anger at being left out of the economy and why they are turning to this protest movement, to this, and even to a socialist movement. For many, this is something that is really maybe uh extraordinary for people to think that you have these rural people that we think of as very conservative, very traditional. They were the most radical socialists of the era during that. And Kyle's book brings that out.
SPEAKER_00What one other uh another book that I think it's an older book, but it's it was very good. It's uh Robert McMath Jr., American Populism, a social history. Uh and another book that's uh written by somebody near and dear to all of our hearts, uh Alwyn Barr's book uh on Reconstruction to Reform. Reconstruction to reform. And I want to say that this is this is it's a much more sweeping history, and it's not just focusing on, but it's looking at the whole era. Reconstruction to reform.
SPEAKER_01He has a it it's a and I can't remember Alan's subtitle. Is it like Texas Politics 1876 to 1906 or something like that? And he does essentially look at this this this this movement to populism and then into progressivism. It really ends with Texas progressivism beginning to start.
SPEAKER_001876, Texas Politics 1876 to 1906. So uh so he's looking at that 30-year period there uh as and and and the title uh it tells you Reconstruction to Reform.
SPEAKER_01You know, I just thought of another book, Gene, people could look at a more recent book, I think 2007, I'm not sure. A man I don't know, but I have read the book, Matthew Healed, I think that's how you say it, H-I-L-D, did a book uh titled uh Greenbackers, Knights of Labor and Populists, Farmer Labor Insurgency in the Late 19th Century South. It's really good about looking how even in the South, this whole uh beginning of a coalition between Knights of Labor, a trade labor uh lay labor union, and these populists, and then the greenbackers and inflators come together and show how the South was the center of that. Something we don't really know very much. It's a really good book, well written.
SPEAKER_00Well, Scott, we had two episodes on these 16 demands that the farmers in Texas and and other farmers who met here in Cleburn wanted to get passed so that life in farm, farm life, farm economy, uh the working people.
SPEAKER_01Who would ever thought, Gene, two dazzling urbanites like ourselves would have so much to say about farmers? But we did, and I think this, and I and I want to, and as we're we're signing off here, I think this is why we did take two episodes. This is very important. Because this is a a shift, this is the beginning of a shift in American political ideology. And this is the populist movement, folks, is where we begin to see the growth of the federal government taking on a larger role in American life, and particularly American economic life. And it's done, and I know people you know they lament how big the federal government is, but this is done because they needed to counter the enormous power, the concentration of wealth that happened. That's why this is important. That's why we spent two episodes on it, Gene. But I think we I think we got it covered this time. What do you think?
SPEAKER_00Well, I do too. Yeah, and you know, you're you're absolutely right. You know, uh now 1925, Calvin Coolidge says the business, uh chief business of the American people is business. And that's 1925. But even by 1925 it had changed. And so he was kind of hearkening back to this period in American history when when government was primarily about economics and about business. And people, you know, politicians, presidents didn't go around the country trying to drum up votes. Uh government was smaller. Government was really about promoting American business and industry. And there was a shift. And as you're saying, this is kind of the beginning of that entire shift so that American government would not just be another big amorphous power that the little people had to fight, that the American government would be on the side of the little people.
SPEAKER_01That's exactly right. And as we do this in this premise, we're not done with our series of looking at documents and doing this stuff. And I think it's the perfect lead-in too, because the next one we're going to talk about is the famous American promise speech that Lyndon, you know, Gene and I both have heroes, and Lyndon Johnson is both of our heroes. Lyndon Johnson gave them in March of 1865 about really calling for this is why I'm calling for something like the Great Society and the civil rights and these things is to actually extend and make sure we fulfill this promise of equal opportunity in the United States. So next next episode, we're gonna delve into Lyndon Johnson and his American Pharmacy.
SPEAKER_00So as we said, you know, Johnson kind of grew up in a populist environment. And I think we're gonna see some of that next episode.
SPEAKER_01I'll look forward to it, Gene. Thanks for watching for listening.
SPEAKER_00Thanks.
SPEAKER_01Bye bye.
