{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"[ANNOUNCER]","startTime":0.0,"endTime":5.4,"body":"Breaking down everyday workplace "},{"speaker":"[ANNOUNCER]","startTime":0.0,"endTime":5.4,"body":"issues and diagnosing the hidden sickness,  "},{"speaker":"[ANNOUNCER]","startTime":5.4,"endTime":10.16,"body":"not just the obvious symptom. "},{"speaker":"[ANNOUNCER]","startTime":5.4,"endTime":10.16,"body":"Our hosts, James and Coby."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":10.16,"endTime":11.98,"body":"Did we lose a patient?"},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":11.98,"endTime":14.92,"body":"No, that's just my lunch."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":14.92,"endTime":21.08,"body":"Hey, thanks for joining "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":14.92,"endTime":21.08,"body":"us. I'm Coby, he's James,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":21.08,"endTime":29.96,"body":"and let's get started with a question. What "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":21.08,"endTime":29.96,"body":"can be done to improve employee performance?"},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":29.96,"endTime":34.56,"body":"Really? To improve employee "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":29.96,"endTime":34.56,"body":"performance, we really need to understand  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":34.56,"endTime":41.12,"body":"how performance management is being used in "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":34.56,"endTime":41.12,"body":"our workplace. Is your performance management  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":41.12,"endTime":47.32,"body":"system designed to punish our performance, "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":41.12,"endTime":47.32,"body":"essentially using it as a control tool? Or  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":47.32,"endTime":53.083,"body":"are you trying to encourage high performance, "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":47.32,"endTime":53.083,"body":"turning it into a productivity tool? Control  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":53.083,"endTime":60.36,"body":"based performance management systems tend to "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":53.083,"endTime":60.36,"body":"focus on the consequences of poor performance,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":60.36,"endTime":64.92,"body":"and, they rely heavily on things like performance "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":60.36,"endTime":64.92,"body":"improvement plans, where underperformance  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":64.92,"endTime":72.32,"body":"is called out and pips are used, really, as "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":64.92,"endTime":72.32,"body":"setting the stage for termination. these forms  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":72.32,"endTime":79.84,"body":"of performance management systems are kind of a "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":72.32,"endTime":79.84,"body":"hallmark of poor or even toxic workplace cultures,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":79.84,"endTime":85.24,"body":"where productivity based performance management "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":79.84,"endTime":85.24,"body":"systems, on the other hand, are really focused  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":85.24,"endTime":92.68,"body":"on setting and managing expectations. They set "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":85.24,"endTime":92.68,"body":"the guardrails for what people can do within  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":92.68,"endTime":99.785,"body":"the limits of their. Within the authority of "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":92.68,"endTime":99.785,"body":"their role, and they provide regular check  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":99.785,"endTime":106.24,"body":"ins and support to help people achieve the "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":99.785,"endTime":106.24,"body":"expectations that we set. A lot of how your  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":106.24,"endTime":113.48,"body":"performance management system is designed kind of "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":106.24,"endTime":113.48,"body":"depends on how HR is viewed within your company."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":113.48,"endTime":122.88,"body":"Yeah, no, that is a really important point "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":113.48,"endTime":122.88,"body":"to even just challenge or rethink how performance  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":122.88,"endTime":127.88,"body":"management and employee performance is "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":122.88,"endTime":127.88,"body":"viewed in the workplace. Because in,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":127.88,"endTime":133.36,"body":"when we talk to businesses and they talk "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":127.88,"endTime":133.36,"body":"about employee performance, it's really,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":133.36,"endTime":140.88,"body":"they're talking about mitigating risk, mitigating "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":133.36,"endTime":140.88,"body":"problems, resolving employee issues through kind  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":140.88,"endTime":147.44,"body":"of this almost like happy sunshine language of, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":140.88,"endTime":147.44,"body":"we're actually not trying to discipline you,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":147.44,"endTime":154.72,"body":"we're trying to improve your performance. And it's "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":147.44,"endTime":154.72,"body":"something that is, you know, when that happens,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":154.72,"endTime":159.08,"body":"everyone knows what's going on. You're not fooling "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":154.72,"endTime":159.08,"body":"anybody. You know, you're putting lipstick on a  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":159.08,"endTime":165.36,"body":"pig, in a sense. Right? And to me, I always am "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":159.08,"endTime":165.36,"body":"always like, ugh, that's not a good sign when  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":165.36,"endTime":170.08,"body":"we're doing, when we see it, doing initial "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":165.36,"endTime":170.08,"body":"assessments, because it's like you're just,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":170.08,"endTime":176.76,"body":"you know, you're really just trying to use "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":170.08,"endTime":176.76,"body":"positive language to address something that you  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":176.76,"endTime":182.32,"body":"see is very negative, and then it kind of means "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":176.76,"endTime":182.32,"body":"you don't really have a plan on how we're going to  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":182.32,"endTime":187.48,"body":"actually improve employee performance, how we're "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":182.32,"endTime":187.48,"body":"actually going to manage employees performance,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":187.48,"endTime":194.4,"body":"to have them do better, reach higher, and, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":187.48,"endTime":194.4,"body":"you know, and excel. We're just using this  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":194.4,"endTime":200.82,"body":"language of performance management and employee "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":194.4,"endTime":200.82,"body":"performance as, just as a synonym for discipline."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":200.82,"endTime":205.64,"body":"Yeah. And typically the "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":200.82,"endTime":205.64,"body":"tools are often the same. Like,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":205.64,"endTime":209.76,"body":"there's nothing inherently bad about "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":205.64,"endTime":209.76,"body":"a performance improvement plan."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":209.76,"endTime":210.72,"body":"You're right."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":210.72,"endTime":215.96,"body":"Right. We've identified that somebody is "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":210.72,"endTime":215.96,"body":"not meeting the expectations that we have set out  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":215.96,"endTime":221.88,"body":"in advance and we have provided support to them "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":215.96,"endTime":221.88,"body":"still failing to meet those expectations. So we  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":221.88,"endTime":227.16,"body":"are going to put a performance improvement plan "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":221.88,"endTime":227.16,"body":"in place that says, here is the expectations,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":227.16,"endTime":231.68,"body":"here's what we are going to do to support you. "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":227.16,"endTime":231.68,"body":"Here's where you need to be by x period of time,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":231.68,"endTime":236.32,"body":"and if you still continue to not meet those "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":231.68,"endTime":236.32,"body":"expectations, then there will be some sort  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":236.32,"endTime":243.48,"body":"of consequence. Totally reasonable approach. It's "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":236.32,"endTime":243.48,"body":"in how the tools are used and how they're thought  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":243.48,"endTime":249.48,"body":"of within the organization that really, makes the "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":243.48,"endTime":249.48,"body":"difference between control based and productivity  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":249.48,"endTime":259.68,"body":"based. I, can, like, I have evaluated a lot of "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":249.48,"endTime":259.68,"body":"performance management systems for clients. And  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":259.68,"endTime":264.12,"body":"many times when we, like you said, when we're "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":259.68,"endTime":264.12,"body":"doing the initial assessments or the early  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":264.12,"endTime":270.0,"body":"stages of, engagements with clients, we're "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":264.12,"endTime":270.0,"body":"looking at what they're doing and how they  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":270.0,"endTime":277.74,"body":"approach these things. And many times the only "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":270.0,"endTime":277.74,"body":"performance management tool they use is a PIP."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":277.74,"endTime":285.84,"body":"And if the only way that you monitor and "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":277.74,"endTime":285.84,"body":"manage performance is through corrective action,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":285.84,"endTime":290.76,"body":"then you're not trying to support people to "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":285.84,"endTime":290.76,"body":"improve their performance. You are disciplining  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":290.76,"endTime":298.56,"body":"people for failing to meet your expectations. Now, "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":290.76,"endTime":298.56,"body":"it's not every time, but the vast majority of time  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":298.56,"endTime":305.28,"body":"that this happens. Expectations are not clearly "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":298.56,"endTime":305.28,"body":"set in advance, and there's not a system in place  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":305.28,"endTime":310.4,"body":"for supporting people doing the regular check "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":305.28,"endTime":310.4,"body":"ins, whether that's quarterly, evaluations to  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":310.4,"endTime":316.44,"body":"see. Are we on track with our. To meet our goals "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":310.4,"endTime":316.44,"body":"and what can we do to support you to continue to  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":316.44,"endTime":323.84,"body":"improve that? It's a once a year sit down. Or when "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":316.44,"endTime":323.84,"body":"something significant happens, we slap them with a  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":323.84,"endTime":329.64,"body":"you messed up, here's a pip. If you don't fix it "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":323.84,"endTime":329.64,"body":"in six months, we're going to fire you mentality."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":330.44,"endTime":336.96,"body":"And I think maybe it is. This is the heart "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":330.44,"endTime":336.96,"body":"of it. I feel sometimes that when workplaces try  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":336.96,"endTime":342.96,"body":"to use again the performance management as "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":336.96,"endTime":342.96,"body":"a substitute or a softening of discipline,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":342.96,"endTime":348.32,"body":"it almost seems passive aggressive. And maybe "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":342.96,"endTime":348.32,"body":"that's part of what is that I dislike. It seems  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":348.32,"endTime":355.76,"body":"a bit deceitful. And again, I know no employee "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":348.32,"endTime":355.76,"body":"wants to be brought in for a disciplinary meeting,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":355.76,"endTime":360.72,"body":"but bringing them in for a performance "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":355.76,"endTime":360.72,"body":"improvement meeting, that where they're."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":360.72,"endTime":366.16,"body":"Being disciplined "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":360.72,"endTime":366.16,"body":"doesn't negate the outcome,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":366.16,"endTime":369.8,"body":"doesn't mean anything. You're still "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":366.16,"endTime":369.8,"body":"trying to discipline them. You're just  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":369.8,"endTime":374.82,"body":"being a little less forward and "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":369.8,"endTime":374.82,"body":"upfront about what you're doing."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":374.82,"endTime":381.16,"body":"Yeah. Now what you said before, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":374.82,"endTime":381.16,"body":"too, about how we, again, like, you know,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":381.16,"endTime":387.32,"body":"how the performance, the employee performance "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":381.16,"endTime":387.32,"body":"programs are used, kind of bases a bit on kind  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":387.32,"endTime":393.16,"body":"of the expectations of the organization. And "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":387.32,"endTime":393.16,"body":"that makes me want to, makes me think that we  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":393.16,"endTime":398.8,"body":"should go back and talk about something we did in "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":393.16,"endTime":398.8,"body":"an, episode last season. We talked about kind of,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":398.8,"endTime":403.32,"body":"what does HR mean in your organization? Talked "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":398.8,"endTime":403.32,"body":"about in that conversation, talking about the  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":403.32,"endTime":413.64,"body":"four, we call the four faces of HR. Basically "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":403.32,"endTime":413.64,"body":"that HR, the h and the r kind of have a different  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":413.64,"endTime":419.92,"body":"meaning or, you know, in different organizations "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":413.64,"endTime":419.92,"body":"based on kind of the mindset and the view of both  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":419.92,"endTime":424.24,"body":"employee relations and HR departments. And I "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":419.92,"endTime":424.24,"body":"guess performance management would fall into  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":424.24,"endTime":428.76,"body":"that. So I think it might not hurt for us to kind "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":424.24,"endTime":428.76,"body":"of talk about that again and then kind of talk  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":428.76,"endTime":433.44,"body":"about what does performance management look like "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":428.76,"endTime":433.44,"body":"in those different environments in hopes that the  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":433.44,"endTime":438.52,"body":"person listening to this you'll be able to kind "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":433.44,"endTime":438.52,"body":"of maybe connect with, yeah, that kind of sounds  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":438.52,"endTime":442.56,"body":"a bit like my workplace or, yeah, that is maybe "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":438.52,"endTime":442.56,"body":"some of the mindset issues that we're struggling  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":442.56,"endTime":447.68,"body":"with and, and hopefully, again, make some kind "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":442.56,"endTime":447.68,"body":"of, again, clear understanding for what kind of,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":447.68,"endTime":452.96,"body":"how can employee performance be improved based "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":447.68,"endTime":452.96,"body":"on the type of HR and kind of the governing  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":452.96,"endTime":456.5,"body":"philosophies around employee relations "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":452.96,"endTime":456.5,"body":"that kind of are in these workplaces."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":456.5,"endTime":461.28,"body":"So the first one that I want, that I "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":456.5,"endTime":461.28,"body":"think is important to talk about is if HR in  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":461.28,"endTime":468.12,"body":"your workplace really stands for holding red tape, "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":461.28,"endTime":468.12,"body":"where the intent and really the primary activity  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":468.12,"endTime":473.68,"body":"of your HR department really is just compliance "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":468.12,"endTime":473.68,"body":"and making sure that processes are being followed  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":473.68,"endTime":478.68,"body":"and there's no real strategy, strategic "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":473.68,"endTime":478.68,"body":"intent behind it, then honestly, you may,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":478.68,"endTime":483.56,"body":"you're probably not using it as a productivity "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":478.68,"endTime":483.56,"body":"tool. And honestly, you're probably not using it  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":483.56,"endTime":490.96,"body":"as a control tool either. Very likely, it's just "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":483.56,"endTime":490.96,"body":"a box that needs to be checked. Right. once a  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":490.96,"endTime":497.24,"body":"year we have a performance conversation so that we "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":490.96,"endTime":497.24,"body":"can tick the box that says we have, on an annual  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":497.24,"endTime":503.78,"body":"basis, done a performance, management criteria. "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":497.24,"endTime":503.78,"body":"We've met our obligations onto the next thing."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":503.78,"endTime":509.92,"body":"Yeah, no, I think that's bang on. "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":503.78,"endTime":509.92,"body":"You're right, because it's not even that.  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":509.92,"endTime":517.84,"body":"It's performance management is used for anything "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":509.92,"endTime":517.84,"body":"other than it's a process we have to go through  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":517.84,"endTime":524.6,"body":"to say that we've gone through it. And I'm sure "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":517.84,"endTime":524.6,"body":"anybody hearing this conversation can remember  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":524.6,"endTime":530.96,"body":"sitting in a performance management or yearly "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":524.6,"endTime":530.96,"body":"performance review meeting and you're like,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":530.96,"endTime":535.36,"body":"why am I here? I'm like, sure, I'll just "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":530.96,"endTime":535.36,"body":"do what I did. This year, I'll just do it  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":535.36,"endTime":540.0,"body":"better next year, or sure, I'll, you know, and "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":535.36,"endTime":540.0,"body":"you're, you and sometimes even your supervisor,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":540.0,"endTime":545.56,"body":"you're both like, why are we even "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":540.0,"endTime":545.56,"body":"doing this? It's. It's a exercise to,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":545.56,"endTime":549.88,"body":"it's administrative exercise. It really "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":545.56,"endTime":549.88,"body":"has no value on my day, on my daily work."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":549.88,"endTime":556.56,"body":"And we've seen this firsthand in. "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":549.88,"endTime":556.56,"body":"Right. We've seen it where staff sit around  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":556.56,"endTime":564.64,"body":"a table and do their, performance management, "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":556.56,"endTime":564.64,"body":"process together, and they recycle the same  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":564.64,"endTime":571.56,"body":"three to five goals. this year, I'm going to "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":564.64,"endTime":571.56,"body":"choose this goal because it sounds good. right,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":571.56,"endTime":581.44,"body":"there's that one last year. Right. Like, "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":571.56,"endTime":581.44,"body":"it just. It becomes a routine activity  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":581.44,"endTime":587.16,"body":"that has no meaning and no value beyond "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":581.44,"endTime":587.16,"body":"somebody at head office being able to say,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":587.16,"endTime":594.4,"body":"it was done. I don't care about anything other "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":587.16,"endTime":594.4,"body":"than check the box. It's done. Let's move on."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":594.4,"endTime":599.8,"body":"Right. So the answer to our question, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":594.4,"endTime":599.8,"body":"what can be done to improve employee performance  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":599.8,"endTime":602.36,"body":"in the holding red tape department?"},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":602.36,"endTime":603.912,"body":"A lot."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":603.912,"endTime":612.96,"body":"Yeah. Is really anything, not making it "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":603.912,"endTime":612.96,"body":"a ridiculous activity for all people involved,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":612.96,"endTime":620.16,"body":"showing the managers how they can actually "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":612.96,"endTime":620.16,"body":"make this into a meaningful, kind of like,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":620.16,"endTime":625.076,"body":"you know, part of the work again. Start "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":620.16,"endTime":625.076,"body":"small, start again. because you have to re  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":625.076,"endTime":631.12,"body":"educate everybody involved that this isn't an "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":625.076,"endTime":631.12,"body":"exercise in futility or this isn't just some,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":631.12,"endTime":634.76,"body":"some type of lip service process "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":631.12,"endTime":634.76,"body":"that you have, that you're doing."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":634.76,"endTime":640.24,"body":"I feel for somebody in this "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":634.76,"endTime":640.24,"body":"situation who wants to make change,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":640.24,"endTime":647.84,"body":"because if the way leadership in your company "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":640.24,"endTime":647.84,"body":"views HR is merely as holding red tape,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":647.84,"endTime":656.68,"body":"then you may not be empowered to make any "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":647.84,"endTime":656.68,"body":"changes, which is a very frustrating place  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":656.68,"endTime":661.84,"body":"to be. and you've probably already identified "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":656.68,"endTime":661.84,"body":"that there's a whole number of ways that it can  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":661.84,"endTime":668.7,"body":"be done better. But yes, Coby, you're right. That "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":661.84,"endTime":668.7,"body":"start small within the authority that you have."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":668.7,"endTime":672.68,"body":"Well, and I said this "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":668.7,"endTime":672.68,"body":"in meetings with businesses,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":672.68,"endTime":681.2,"body":"and I've said this on the other podcast "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":672.68,"endTime":681.2,"body":"before, but if employee performance,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":681.2,"endTime":688.88,"body":"if performance management doesn't matter, then "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":681.2,"endTime":688.88,"body":"employee performance doesn't matter. And I mean,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":688.88,"endTime":694.12,"body":"if. So, if you're in a situation where you're, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":688.88,"endTime":694.12,"body":"you know, feeling, you know, that, you know,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":694.12,"endTime":699.68,"body":"senior leadership or those above you are limiting "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":694.12,"endTime":699.68,"body":"your ability to be empowered to do anything about  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":699.68,"endTime":706.04,"body":"this because it's just an administrative process, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":699.68,"endTime":706.04,"body":"then that's the mentality I suggest you find a  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":706.04,"endTime":712.08,"body":"way to bring to them. If this is something "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":706.04,"endTime":712.08,"body":"that is not important, then we're saying,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":712.08,"endTime":719.44,"body":"and we're living and we're walking the walk, that "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":712.08,"endTime":719.44,"body":"employee performance doesn't matter. And kind  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":719.44,"endTime":726.0,"body":"of put that on them to say, we can do better. "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":719.44,"endTime":726.0,"body":"I've got a plan to do better, but I need to be  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":726.0,"endTime":732.76,"body":"supported in my performance to do my job better "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":726.0,"endTime":732.76,"body":"so that I can help them do their jobs better.  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":732.76,"endTime":737.68,"body":"But make it very clear, if this whole, the whole "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":732.76,"endTime":737.68,"body":"process of managing performance doesn't matter,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":737.68,"endTime":745.04,"body":"then performance doesn't matter. All right, so the "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":737.68,"endTime":745.04,"body":"next, type of space of HR is when HR stands for  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":745.04,"endTime":753.32,"body":"the highly reactive department. And this is about "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":745.04,"endTime":753.32,"body":"when the daily interactions of the HR departments  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":753.32,"endTime":760.0,"body":"is really just pointing out fires. Sometimes this "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":753.32,"endTime":760.0,"body":"looks like the kind of HR roles where it's just  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":760.0,"endTime":766.28,"body":"about try to fill vacancies. And the majority of "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":760.0,"endTime":766.28,"body":"all the HR time is spent just trying to, like,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":766.28,"endTime":771.72,"body":"you know, put bums in seats because we can't get "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":766.28,"endTime":771.72,"body":"enough staff. Or it's about trying to run around  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":771.72,"endTime":778.48,"body":"and put out kind of interpersonal fires. And "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":771.72,"endTime":778.48,"body":"every day is just about reacting to what happened  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":778.48,"endTime":784.92,"body":"this morning or yesterday or whatever, and it's "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":778.48,"endTime":784.92,"body":"really just kind of running from fire to fire and  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":784.92,"endTime":793.3,"body":"never feeling like you're ever getting ahead. And "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":784.92,"endTime":793.3,"body":"this is both depressing and depressingly common."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":793.3,"endTime":801.4,"body":"Yeah. Well, I think in the reactive "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":793.3,"endTime":801.4,"body":"mindset, performance management becomes a control  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":801.4,"endTime":809.28,"body":"tool. Right. Because you're trying to limit the "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":801.4,"endTime":809.28,"body":"number of fires that happen. Right. It's just you,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":809.28,"endTime":815.76,"body":"when you're constantly reacting to situations, "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":809.28,"endTime":815.76,"body":"it's hard to act with strategic intent. Right.  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":815.76,"endTime":822.68,"body":"And to take a, productivity mindset towards "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":815.76,"endTime":822.68,"body":"performance management, it really needs to  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":822.68,"endTime":826.56,"body":"be. There needs to be strategic intent "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":822.68,"endTime":826.56,"body":"behind it. Right. There needs to be,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":826.56,"endTime":834.16,"body":"you need to have the ability to, work "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":826.56,"endTime":834.16,"body":"on things before they become a critical  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":834.16,"endTime":843.6,"body":"problem that needs to be addressed or reacted "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":834.16,"endTime":843.6,"body":"to. So I see the, this face, of HR very closely  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":843.6,"endTime":854.28,"body":"aligning with the control mentality out of that "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":843.6,"endTime":854.28,"body":"reactive mindset of, well, we just, we need to,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":854.28,"endTime":860.96,"body":"as much as possible, control how many fires we are "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":854.28,"endTime":860.96,"body":"putting out at a time. so when something comes up,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":860.96,"endTime":869.12,"body":"we respond. We institute, a performance "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":860.96,"endTime":869.12,"body":"improvement, plan and give them a timeframe.  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":869.12,"endTime":875.44,"body":"And if they don't adhere to it, then we move "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":869.12,"endTime":875.44,"body":"on to discipline, or termination procedures."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":875.44,"endTime":883.28,"body":"Yeah, well, and one thing that's really "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":875.44,"endTime":883.28,"body":"kind of a sad side effect of a HR department or  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":883.28,"endTime":888.84,"body":"people with HR responsibilities that are, that, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":883.28,"endTime":888.84,"body":"are, that are used to constantly being in talent  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":888.84,"endTime":897.24,"body":"attraction or talent recruitment mode is they "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":888.84,"endTime":897.24,"body":"will be like, well, if this person doesn't show  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":897.24,"endTime":903.24,"body":"us their worth keeping them, we'll just replace "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":897.24,"endTime":903.24,"body":"them because we're pretty good at filling seats."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":903.24,"endTime":904.1,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":904.1,"endTime":908.68,"body":"And there's no concept of the "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":904.1,"endTime":908.68,"body":"retention pieces either. You need to  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":908.68,"endTime":914.84,"body":"because, because they're so behind the eight ball "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":908.68,"endTime":914.84,"body":"and they're so focused on just recruitment that  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":914.84,"endTime":921.16,"body":"it's like if the person doesn't show up and "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":914.84,"endTime":921.16,"body":"is problem free, then they're out. Because we  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":921.16,"endTime":927.44,"body":"don't have the bandwidth to help you become "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":921.16,"endTime":927.44,"body":"good at your job. So you have to come fully  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":927.44,"endTime":933.6,"body":"formed and problem free. Otherwise we're just "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":927.44,"endTime":933.6,"body":"going to replace you because that's all we  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":933.6,"endTime":939.72,"body":"have capacity to do. And man, I've seen that in "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":933.6,"endTime":939.72,"body":"so many, I've heard stories, especially from,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":941.72,"endTime":946.12,"body":"younger employees and stuff like that, that have "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":941.72,"endTime":946.12,"body":"gotten these jobs. They're great. They don't hear  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":946.12,"endTime":952.76,"body":"anything super concerning. They're looking forward "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":946.12,"endTime":952.76,"body":"to their probationary period and they are just let  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":952.76,"endTime":959.56,"body":"go within the probationary period with very little "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":952.76,"endTime":959.56,"body":"warning because they just didn't quite become  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":959.56,"endTime":967.34,"body":"problem free enough, that it was just easier "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":959.56,"endTime":967.34,"body":"to replace them to the HR team. And that's sad."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":967.34,"endTime":976.12,"body":"It is. And I think it's important "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":967.34,"endTime":976.12,"body":"to clearly state and reinforce that this,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":976.12,"endTime":982.32,"body":"is not only an HR problem. Performance "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":976.12,"endTime":982.32,"body":"management is not only an HR problem,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":982.84,"endTime":989.84,"body":"it's a management problem and a management "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":982.84,"endTime":989.84,"body":"deficit, ah, of management skills. While HR  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":989.84,"endTime":996.2,"body":"holds the overall responsibility, for "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":989.84,"endTime":996.2,"body":"the performance management process,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":996.2,"endTime":1004.2,"body":"let's be real. It's the individual managers "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":996.2,"endTime":1004.2,"body":"who should be monitoring, who should be, using  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1004.2,"endTime":1011.4,"body":"the performance management frameworks to support "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1004.2,"endTime":1011.4,"body":"their staff to improve performance. Unfortunately,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1011.4,"endTime":1016.92,"body":"when that doesn't happen, it just falls back "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1011.4,"endTime":1016.92,"body":"and creates more work for HR professionals."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1016.92,"endTime":1024.08,"body":"Well, let's be serious too. When HR "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1016.92,"endTime":1024.08,"body":"is stands for the highly reactive department,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1024.08,"endTime":1029.92,"body":"it's not just the HR professionals that are "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1024.08,"endTime":1029.92,"body":"in reaction mode all the time. This tends to  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1029.92,"endTime":1034.12,"body":"be an orientational wide thing. And sometimes, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1029.92,"endTime":1034.12,"body":"and I've seen, and we've seen this with some  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1034.12,"endTime":1040.16,"body":"companies where, you know, sometimes our first "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1034.12,"endTime":1040.16,"body":"engagement with them tends to be with the HR  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1040.16,"endTime":1046.56,"body":"people just because kind of how we get brought in. "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1040.16,"endTime":1046.56,"body":"But then we kind of see that HR is in a constantly  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1046.56,"endTime":1051.16,"body":"reactive mode and managers are constantly "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1046.56,"endTime":1051.16,"body":"reactive mode and employees are constantly  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1051.16,"endTime":1056.64,"body":"reactive mode and senior leadership is. So it "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1051.16,"endTime":1056.64,"body":"becomes organizational wide thing. So when it's,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1056.64,"endTime":1060.68,"body":"again, when I say an employee is not, when "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1056.64,"endTime":1060.68,"body":"they bring a new employee on and they don't,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1060.68,"endTime":1064.72,"body":"the manager doesn't have time to correct "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1060.68,"endTime":1064.72,"body":"the employee performance because they're,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1064.72,"endTime":1069.4,"body":"because they're putting off fires constantly. "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1064.72,"endTime":1069.4,"body":"So they kind of kick the problem to HR. And HR  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1069.4,"endTime":1073.64,"body":"is like, well, either we, you know, do you want "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1069.4,"endTime":1073.64,"body":"to just replace them? Because that's all we have  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1073.64,"endTime":1078.16,"body":"capacity to do. And then that's usually how it "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1073.64,"endTime":1078.16,"body":"happens. It's not someone intentionally going,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1078.16,"endTime":1083.92,"body":"you know, let's just leave. Let's do this with, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1078.16,"endTime":1083.92,"body":"you know, as a plan. It's just people trying  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1083.92,"endTime":1088.48,"body":"to keep their head above water. No one has time "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1083.92,"endTime":1088.48,"body":"to get ahead. No one. People are, you're right,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1088.48,"endTime":1094.52,"body":"they're often not trained enough how to actually "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1088.48,"endTime":1094.52,"body":"improve a new employee's performance, or address,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1094.52,"endTime":1100.04,"body":"employees whose performance has been, is dipped "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1094.52,"endTime":1100.04,"body":"and is struggling. So it's, and they don't have  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1100.04,"endTime":1105.92,"body":"the capacity or the bandwidth to be trained. And "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1100.04,"endTime":1105.92,"body":"HR doesn't have the capacity to kind of put in  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1105.92,"endTime":1114.12,"body":"some preact or proactive stuff. All this to say "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1105.92,"endTime":1114.12,"body":"that usually the highly reactive problems are not,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1114.12,"endTime":1120.04,"body":"don't, don't just live within HR. HR is often "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1114.12,"endTime":1120.04,"body":"reflective of it, but it's almost like a lot of  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1120.04,"endTime":1125.28,"body":"the reactive momentum gets built up in other "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1120.04,"endTime":1125.28,"body":"departments and then ends up almost like,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1125.28,"endTime":1130.8,"body":"you know, being pushed into HR. HR is often "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1125.28,"endTime":1130.8,"body":"more in a reactive mode because everyone else's  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1130.8,"endTime":1134.32,"body":"reactive problems are now their problems, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1130.8,"endTime":1134.32,"body":"which kind of increases the problem tenfold."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1134.32,"endTime":1137.96,"body":"Yeah. And that's, that's "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1134.32,"endTime":1137.96,"body":"often where this mindset comes from,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1137.96,"endTime":1143.48,"body":"is a lack of strategic intent and operational,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1143.48,"endTime":1150.0,"body":"thought throughout the organization, "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1143.48,"endTime":1150.0,"body":"which forces HR to react to situations,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1150.0,"endTime":1155.46,"body":"because nobody in the organization is actually "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1150.0,"endTime":1155.46,"body":"taking a strategic mindset in what they're doing."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1155.46,"endTime":1160.2,"body":"Yeah. So then the question of what can be "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1155.46,"endTime":1160.2,"body":"done to improve employee performance in the highly  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1160.2,"endTime":1168.88,"body":"reactive department, it's, it's a tough situation "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1160.2,"endTime":1168.88,"body":"because you're struggling to keep your head above  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1168.88,"endTime":1176.96,"body":"water. And the. So what we would say is that any "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1168.88,"endTime":1176.96,"body":"type of ability to work with the management team,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1176.96,"endTime":1185.8,"body":"to build some level of proactive "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1176.96,"endTime":1185.8,"body":"employee support, to improve performance,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1185.8,"endTime":1193.56,"body":"to give people more opportunity and to, to have "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1185.8,"endTime":1193.56,"body":"structure, have clear expectations, so that,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1193.56,"endTime":1198.84,"body":"that way the employee performance can actually "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1193.56,"endTime":1198.84,"body":"be improved and not be, either you're perfect  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1198.84,"endTime":1205.32,"body":"or you're gone, kind of, you know, either "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1198.84,"endTime":1205.32,"body":"or kind of situation. Anything that you  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1205.32,"endTime":1210.0,"body":"can do to allow employees to actually have "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1205.32,"endTime":1210.0,"body":"the chance to actually improve with some  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1210.0,"endTime":1216.68,"body":"kind of clarity and support and clear, with "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1210.0,"endTime":1216.68,"body":"clear expectations is really going to, it's  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1216.68,"endTime":1219.36,"body":"going to serve you very, very well. I "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1216.68,"endTime":1219.36,"body":"know it's a tough thing to say. Just,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1219.36,"endTime":1223.36,"body":"you have to do more work in order to answer it. "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1219.36,"endTime":1223.36,"body":"When you're in a highly reactive department."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1223.36,"endTime":1228.76,"body":"What needs to be done is you're right. "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1223.36,"endTime":1228.76,"body":"there needs to be more intent around what  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1228.76,"endTime":1234.16,"body":"happens right from the very top, from the "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1228.76,"endTime":1234.16,"body":"senior leadership level. there needs to be,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1234.16,"endTime":1239.6,"body":"managers need to be provided training "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1234.16,"endTime":1239.6,"body":"on how to actually manage m performance,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1239.6,"endTime":1249.32,"body":"not just, monitor or restrict or react to poor "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1239.6,"endTime":1249.32,"body":"performance. and it may involve finding external."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1249.32,"endTime":1254.8,"body":"Resources to support you yeah, yeah. "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1249.32,"endTime":1254.8,"body":"And we won't lie. That's something that tends  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1254.8,"endTime":1259.88,"body":"to be kind of a catalyst for some of the "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1254.8,"endTime":1259.88,"body":"work that we do is we need this to change.  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1259.88,"endTime":1265.52,"body":"We don't have the bandwidth internally to "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1259.88,"endTime":1265.52,"body":"change it. We have the desire and we have,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1265.52,"endTime":1269.36,"body":"and we have the commitment to do it, but we just "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1265.52,"endTime":1269.36,"body":"don't know where to start because we're just,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1269.36,"endTime":1273.44,"body":"every day is just putting out fires. So "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1269.36,"endTime":1273.44,"body":"sometimes just having someone else take  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1273.44,"endTime":1279.8,"body":"that off your plate and guide you through "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1273.44,"endTime":1279.8,"body":"the transformation is often the only."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1279.8,"endTime":1283.16,"body":"You need to find capacity "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1279.8,"endTime":1283.16,"body":"somewhere. Either it's going to come  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1283.16,"endTime":1288.8,"body":"from picking up more work or offloading "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1283.16,"endTime":1288.8,"body":"some parts to somebody else, and it's  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1288.8,"endTime":1294.12,"body":"going to be up to you, and your company "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1288.8,"endTime":1294.12,"body":"to decide what's the best fit for that."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1294.12,"endTime":1299.68,"body":"But the one thing we always really try to "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1294.12,"endTime":1299.68,"body":"make clear is that the cost savings of moving from  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1299.68,"endTime":1305.84,"body":"a highly reactive department towards something "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1299.68,"endTime":1305.84,"body":"with more strategic intent is substantial."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1305.84,"endTime":1318.04,"body":"The next one, if the third phase of HR "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1305.84,"endTime":1318.04,"body":"is when HR stands for hovering and restricting,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1318.04,"endTime":1324.8,"body":"and this one, as you can probably guess just from "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1318.04,"endTime":1324.8,"body":"the name, is very control based. Right. It's the  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1324.8,"endTime":1334.2,"body":"idea that HR is big brother is always looking for. "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1324.8,"endTime":1334.2,"body":"When things are going wrong and provide corrective  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1334.2,"endTime":1340.12,"body":"action in and of itself, not a bad thing, but "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1334.2,"endTime":1340.12,"body":"when that is the focus of HR in your organization,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1340.12,"endTime":1350.84,"body":"it creates a lot of challenges. And again, it "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1340.12,"endTime":1350.84,"body":"tends to be, very much a HR is the bad guy HR,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1350.84,"endTime":1358.36,"body":"you know, it's the toxic side of HR, or the HR "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1350.84,"endTime":1358.36,"body":"is not your friend mentality. Don't share or say  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1358.36,"endTime":1365.12,"body":"anything to HR because they're just going to use "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1358.36,"endTime":1365.12,"body":"it against you. These sentiments that we hear very  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1365.12,"endTime":1371.08,"body":"frequently from employees, if you've spent any "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1365.12,"endTime":1371.08,"body":"time talking to employees, you may have heard  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1371.08,"endTime":1382.8,"body":"these. This, mindset is again, quite prevalent. "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1371.08,"endTime":1382.8,"body":"and it tends to view performance management  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1382.8,"endTime":1391.82,"body":"as a mechanism for restricting, what employees "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1382.8,"endTime":1391.82,"body":"can do rather than powering them to do better."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1391.82,"endTime":1397.6,"body":"Yes. And one thing that is probably "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1391.82,"endTime":1397.6,"body":"worth just quickly mentioning too, is that,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1397.6,"endTime":1406.04,"body":"when organizations try to evolve from a highly "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1397.6,"endTime":1406.04,"body":"reactive department without increasing capacity  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1406.04,"endTime":1410.28,"body":"and without getting external support "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1406.04,"endTime":1410.28,"body":"or without trying to get proactive,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1410.28,"endTime":1417.08,"body":"they tend to get more restrictive, they tend to "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1410.28,"endTime":1417.08,"body":"make harsher, more punitive rulings. They tend  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1417.08,"endTime":1424.32,"body":"to focus more on suppressing people as a way of "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1417.08,"endTime":1424.32,"body":"just trying to keep their head above water, as."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1424.32,"endTime":1427.88,"body":"A way of suppressing the number "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1424.32,"endTime":1427.88,"body":"of fires that they need to react to."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1427.88,"endTime":1428.4,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1428.4,"endTime":1433.6,"body":"Right. It, it is. I "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1428.4,"endTime":1433.6,"body":"want to use the language of  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1433.6,"endTime":1439.16,"body":"it's a logical progression. but it's "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1433.6,"endTime":1439.16,"body":"not really a logical thought pattern."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1439.16,"endTime":1444.46,"body":"No, it's an unfortunate "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1439.16,"endTime":1444.46,"body":"progression and easily."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1444.46,"endTime":1448.392,"body":"And an easy "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1444.46,"endTime":1448.392,"body":"progression to fall into. Yes."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1448.392,"endTime":1452.4,"body":"Yeah. So, so it can be what happens when "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1448.392,"endTime":1452.4,"body":"you're highly reactive and you're not too sure  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1452.4,"endTime":1456.84,"body":"how do you get out of it. You're, so we'll just "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1452.4,"endTime":1456.84,"body":"squeeze everyone tighter. That tends to be where  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1456.84,"endTime":1462.88,"body":"you move into. And again, another way to kind of "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1456.84,"endTime":1462.88,"body":"think about this too is going is just the idea of,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1462.88,"endTime":1468.76,"body":"you know, like I say, it's, it's big brother. "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1462.88,"endTime":1468.76,"body":"So big brother is, is trying to, you know,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1468.76,"endTime":1473.48,"body":"use performance management as a way "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1468.76,"endTime":1473.48,"body":"to, again, maintain the suppression,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1473.48,"endTime":1478.72,"body":"maintain the restriction. It is about, you know, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1473.48,"endTime":1478.72,"body":"like you cross this line, we're going to put you  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1478.72,"endTime":1485.16,"body":"on this passive aggressive pip. So that way that "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1478.72,"endTime":1485.16,"body":"you, you know, you don't think we're the bad guys,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1485.16,"endTime":1490.76,"body":"even though we are, you know, tinting our fingers "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1485.16,"endTime":1490.76,"body":"in the background. you know, that, that's kind of  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1490.76,"endTime":1495.04,"body":"some of the way that people feel about, you "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1490.76,"endTime":1495.04,"body":"know, about this. And often where we see this  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1495.04,"endTime":1500.82,"body":"negative idea around Pip tends to kind of come "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1495.04,"endTime":1500.82,"body":"from this hovering and restricting focus of HR."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1500.82,"endTime":1507.68,"body":"This is a natural evolution of the "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1500.82,"endTime":1507.68,"body":"other two, like you said, with a, the reactive  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1507.68,"endTime":1519.08,"body":"mentality. But also, if you are shifting your "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1507.68,"endTime":1519.08,"body":"HR from merely holding red tape without that,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1519.08,"endTime":1526.88,"body":"strategic intent of what HR can be, this "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1519.08,"endTime":1526.88,"body":"idea of we're going to bring in more HR  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1526.88,"endTime":1535.76,"body":"supports to monitor, to correct, actions, to "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1526.88,"endTime":1535.76,"body":"kind, of restrict what people can and can't  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1535.76,"endTime":1544.32,"body":"do. It is an evolution of both the holding "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1535.76,"endTime":1544.32,"body":"red tape and the highly reactive models."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1544.32,"endTime":1549.36,"body":"You're right. And so, like when the, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1544.32,"endTime":1549.36,"body":"and sometimes it's when the high, the holding  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1549.36,"endTime":1557.8,"body":"red tape department is in an organization that "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1549.36,"endTime":1557.8,"body":"views employees as expenses and liabilities,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1557.8,"endTime":1563.8,"body":"and they just, and that the way that they "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1557.8,"endTime":1563.8,"body":"see kind of the human resources is using  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1563.8,"endTime":1571.52,"body":"humans as resources and that more commodity type "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1563.8,"endTime":1571.52,"body":"relationship that they have with the employer,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1571.52,"endTime":1576.28,"body":"then they kind of can jump right from holding red "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1571.52,"endTime":1576.28,"body":"tape to hovering and restricting. If they're like,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1576.28,"endTime":1579.52,"body":"well, employees are liabilities. We have to "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1576.28,"endTime":1579.52,"body":"manage them, we have to suppress them. We have  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1579.52,"endTime":1587.88,"body":"to restrict them because they're a cost center. "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1579.52,"endTime":1587.88,"body":"There are liabilities and expenses. So we have to  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1587.88,"endTime":1592.8,"body":"mitigate that risk. So going back to the question, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1587.88,"endTime":1592.8,"body":"what can be done to improve employee performance  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1592.8,"endTime":1598.6,"body":"in the hovering restriction department? I "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1592.8,"endTime":1598.6,"body":"don't think I got an answer for that one."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1598.6,"endTime":1608.64,"body":"Well, it's a mindset shift. It is "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1598.6,"endTime":1608.64,"body":"a struggle, because when the intent of your  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1608.64,"endTime":1616.08,"body":"department is to hover and restrict, you use "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1608.64,"endTime":1616.08,"body":"control tools to do that. Right. It's a natural  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1616.08,"endTime":1626.64,"body":"outcome, or it's embodied in the very way that we "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1616.08,"endTime":1626.64,"body":"view HR in our organization. So to change that,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1626.64,"endTime":1633.92,"body":"we need to change how HR is viewed in our "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1626.64,"endTime":1633.92,"body":"organization. Right. Because this hovering  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1633.92,"endTime":1641.6,"body":"and restricting model is entirely about "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1633.92,"endTime":1641.6,"body":"control. Whether that stems from a fear  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1641.6,"endTime":1648.44,"body":"of employees taking advantage of us, whether "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1641.6,"endTime":1648.44,"body":"that comes from a lack of understanding of  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1648.44,"endTime":1656.96,"body":"what, of how employees, can be treated when "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1648.44,"endTime":1656.96,"body":"treated as an asset rather than a liability,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1656.96,"endTime":1665.76,"body":"can really enhance our entire business model. If "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1656.96,"endTime":1665.76,"body":"you are in the hovering and restricting mentality,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1665.76,"endTime":1671.68,"body":"you probably are not going to approach "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1665.76,"endTime":1671.68,"body":"performance management as a productivity  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1671.68,"endTime":1678.12,"body":"tool because it's about control. So if to "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1671.68,"endTime":1678.12,"body":"how do you do it better in that situation,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1678.64,"endTime":1684.96,"body":"in that mentality is that you need to change, "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1678.64,"endTime":1684.96,"body":"you need to shift the mindset and what HR means  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1684.96,"endTime":1693.82,"body":"in that organization away, from focusing on "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1684.96,"endTime":1693.82,"body":"restricting actions to empowering performance."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1693.82,"endTime":1699.64,"body":"There is no trust between employees and "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1693.82,"endTime":1699.64,"body":"management, and employees and hrtaine in the  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1699.64,"endTime":1706.16,"body":"hovering and restricting environment, there's "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1699.64,"endTime":1706.16,"body":"just not, So employee performance is going to  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1706.16,"endTime":1713.24,"body":"be about how do I stay out of trouble and how "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1706.16,"endTime":1713.24,"body":"do I keep off the radar of HR and my manager  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1713.24,"endTime":1721.48,"body":"is a survival mode. And you cannot improve "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1713.24,"endTime":1721.48,"body":"performance in that kind of environment in  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1721.48,"endTime":1725.6,"body":"any kind of sustainable way. It's something that, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1721.48,"endTime":1725.6,"body":"it's just you're always going to struggle with  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1725.6,"endTime":1729.6,"body":"employee performance because employees are only "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1725.6,"endTime":1729.6,"body":"going to give you enough to stay out of trouble."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1729.6,"endTime":1733.84,"body":"Because they don't trust "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1729.6,"endTime":1733.84,"body":"you. They are probably looking  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1733.84,"endTime":1737.1,"body":"for a new job right now and keeping their heads."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1737.1,"endTime":1738.04,"body":"Down to collect a paycheck."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1738.04,"endTime":1747.16,"body":"Exactly. So the priorities are not "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1738.04,"endTime":1747.16,"body":"aligned to improve employee performance.  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1747.16,"endTime":1753.28,"body":"So let's move on to the last one, which is the "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1747.16,"endTime":1753.28,"body":"fourth face of HR is what we recall, the humans  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1753.28,"endTime":1758.72,"body":"required department. And this is basically the "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1753.28,"endTime":1758.72,"body":"polar opposite of the hovering and restriction  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1758.72,"endTime":1765.28,"body":"department. This is where the organization values "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1758.72,"endTime":1765.28,"body":"human capital. HR is more the employee advocate.  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1765.28,"endTime":1773.04,"body":"They're about seeing employees as assets. They're "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1765.28,"endTime":1773.04,"body":"about providing resources to humans. And it really  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1773.04,"endTime":1782.64,"body":"is about that idea of, we get that you are a "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1773.04,"endTime":1782.64,"body":"person who we need to nurture and support to  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1782.64,"endTime":1787.56,"body":"if we want you to achieve great heights. So we're "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1782.64,"endTime":1787.56,"body":"behind you and we're going to help you do that.  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1787.56,"endTime":1791.4,"body":"And if you work in this kind of department or real "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1787.56,"endTime":1791.4,"body":"organization, you are lucky because you are not in  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1791.4,"endTime":1796.58,"body":"the majority. But there's a lot that can be done "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1791.4,"endTime":1796.58,"body":"to improve performance. Ah, in this organization."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1796.58,"endTime":1804.56,"body":"Yeah. This idea of humans required really "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1796.58,"endTime":1804.56,"body":"exemplifies that. from a business perspective,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1804.56,"endTime":1813.2,"body":"we understand that if we treat people well, they "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1804.56,"endTime":1813.2,"body":"will perform better. If we treat people like human  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1813.2,"endTime":1820.08,"body":"beings, we empower them to do their job. We trust "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1813.2,"endTime":1820.08,"body":"them within the authority of the position that  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1820.08,"endTime":1828.08,"body":"they have we invest in them, because we, as they "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1820.08,"endTime":1828.08,"body":"get better at what they do, that will make all  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1828.08,"endTime":1835.64,"body":"of us better at achieving our organizational "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1828.08,"endTime":1835.64,"body":"outcomes. It is the mentality that we personally  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1835.64,"endTime":1843.04,"body":"push in through all of our work when we're working "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1835.64,"endTime":1843.04,"body":"with clients. It's all about shifting the mindset  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1843.04,"endTime":1852.8,"body":"to this idea that if we can focus on improving "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1843.04,"endTime":1852.8,"body":"the employee experience, then that will have a  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1852.8,"endTime":1859.24,"body":"direct impact on our organizational outcomes. "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1852.8,"endTime":1859.24,"body":"It will improve productivity, it'll improve,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1859.84,"endTime":1866.08,"body":"performance, it'll improve retention "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1859.84,"endTime":1866.08,"body":"rates, it will help us attract talent,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1866.08,"endTime":1871.0,"body":"to our organization, and it will increase our "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1866.08,"endTime":1871.0,"body":"profitability, it will increase our market share,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1871.0,"endTime":1875.88,"body":"it will increase our ability to innovate "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1871.0,"endTime":1875.88,"body":"and pivot as new situations arise. Right.  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1875.88,"endTime":1883.84,"body":"It has a direct impact on your bottom line, "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1875.88,"endTime":1883.84,"body":"but it requires a lot of work and effort."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1883.84,"endTime":1889.24,"body":"Absolutely. So when we talk about what can "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1883.84,"endTime":1889.24,"body":"be done to improve employee performance when you  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1889.24,"endTime":1893.12,"body":"have a humans required department, well, I think "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1889.24,"endTime":1893.12,"body":"what I'm going to do is going to drop a little bit  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1893.12,"endTime":1899.96,"body":"of psychology on people just to, help accentuate "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1893.12,"endTime":1899.96,"body":"the depths of what can be done when you have the  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1899.96,"endTime":1907.32,"body":"benefit of a human required department. So there "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1899.96,"endTime":1907.32,"body":"is a concept called the Pygmalion effect, and it's  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1907.32,"endTime":1916.0,"body":"psychological bias where higher expectations can "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1907.32,"endTime":1916.0,"body":"lead to higher performance. Or on the other hand,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1916.0,"endTime":1923.2,"body":"lower expectations can lead to lower performance. "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1916.0,"endTime":1923.2,"body":"Basically, the idea of a self fulfilling prophecy  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1923.2,"endTime":1931.04,"body":"between what you expect of people and what they "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1923.2,"endTime":1931.04,"body":"will provide you. Now, what's interesting about  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1931.04,"endTime":1940.48,"body":"the Pygmalion effect is that it requires that the "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1931.04,"endTime":1940.48,"body":"kind of sincere expectation. So it's a matter of  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1940.48,"endTime":1949.32,"body":"saying that, if you have a boss who says, hey, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1940.48,"endTime":1949.32,"body":"I'm excited for you to take on this new project, I  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1949.32,"endTime":1954.84,"body":"want, you know, so you have my support, you let me "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1949.32,"endTime":1954.84,"body":"know what you need. I know, I know you're going to  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1954.84,"endTime":1960.08,"body":"achieve great things, and that boss walks the walk "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1954.84,"endTime":1960.08,"body":"on that, and then you're like, wow, they really  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1960.08,"endTime":1964.36,"body":"believe in me. Well, I'm going to try a little bit "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1960.08,"endTime":1964.36,"body":"harder. I'm going to, you know, I'll take them up  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1964.36,"endTime":1967.56,"body":"when I need the help. Like, you know, they're, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1964.36,"endTime":1967.56,"body":"they're putting, they're putting a lot of faith  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1967.56,"endTime":1973.56,"body":"in me. So I'm going to meet that faith that, you "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1967.56,"endTime":1973.56,"body":"know, then that what that creates is, you know,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1973.56,"endTime":1978.96,"body":"a great situation where your behaviors are aligned "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1973.56,"endTime":1978.96,"body":"and you put more effort into it and you achieve  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1978.96,"endTime":1984.96,"body":"greater things than if your boss said, hey, here's "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1978.96,"endTime":1984.96,"body":"a project, just do your best. it's about setting  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1984.96,"endTime":1994.24,"body":"the bar, but then supporting that bar being met. "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1984.96,"endTime":1994.24,"body":"And it's a pretty interesting concept in a way  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1994.24,"endTime":2000.32,"body":"that it's also a bit of an obvious concept, but "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1994.24,"endTime":2000.32,"body":"it's surprising that there is real science and  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2000.32,"endTime":2005.84,"body":"real kind of cause and effect relationship behind "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2000.32,"endTime":2005.84,"body":"the self fulfilling prophecy of pygmalion effect,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2005.84,"endTime":2011.92,"body":"because it really does work. If you create high "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2005.84,"endTime":2011.92,"body":"expectations and support those high expectations,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2011.92,"endTime":2016.6,"body":"you're going to achieve a higher outcome. And "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2011.92,"endTime":2016.6,"body":"this is an idea that's a lot easier to understand  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2016.6,"endTime":2021.18,"body":"in the humans required department than it would "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2016.6,"endTime":2021.18,"body":"be in the other three types of HR departments."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2021.18,"endTime":2025.16,"body":"Yeah. What was interesting "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2021.18,"endTime":2025.16,"body":"for me when you first introduced, ah,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2025.16,"endTime":2032.8,"body":"the concept of the pygmalion effect to me "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2025.16,"endTime":2032.8,"body":"is that it sounds like just common sense,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2032.8,"endTime":2039.12,"body":"right? If you set high expectations for people and "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2032.8,"endTime":2039.12,"body":"support them to achieve it, they will rise to the  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2039.12,"endTime":2044.8,"body":"occasion. If you set low expectations for people "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2039.12,"endTime":2044.8,"body":"and you don't give them any support, they will  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2044.8,"endTime":2052.8,"body":"lower their performance to meet your expectations. "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2044.8,"endTime":2052.8,"body":"Knowing, that it's an actual psychological,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2053.48,"endTime":2062.08,"body":"effect or theory or whatever you called it, is "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2053.48,"endTime":2062.08,"body":"interesting because if it is rooted in psychology,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2062.08,"endTime":2065.92,"body":"then it makes it a bit more tangible. If it's "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2062.08,"endTime":2065.92,"body":"a bit more tangible, then something that we can  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2065.92,"endTime":2073.08,"body":"manipulate, not manipulate in a negative sense, "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2065.92,"endTime":2073.08,"body":"but understanding that there's actual psychology  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2073.08,"endTime":2080.96,"body":"behind it allows us to use this or deploy it, "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2073.08,"endTime":2080.96,"body":"within what we do around performance management."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2080.96,"endTime":2084.68,"body":"What's interesting is that by "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2080.96,"endTime":2084.68,"body":"knowing it's a real thing, it's not  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2084.68,"endTime":2087.42,"body":"so much that you can manipulate "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2084.68,"endTime":2087.42,"body":"it, that you can replicate it."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2087.42,"endTime":2088.24,"body":"Right? Yeah."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2088.24,"endTime":2093.2,"body":"That you can rely on it is that it's "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2088.24,"endTime":2093.2,"body":"something that will work again and again and  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2093.2,"endTime":2098.08,"body":"again. It's not just a one off. Hey, in just "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2093.2,"endTime":2098.08,"body":"this one rare situation, it just happened to work  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2098.08,"endTime":2104.26,"body":"coincidentally. It's. There's some consistency "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2098.08,"endTime":2104.26,"body":"behind it because this is how human brains work."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2104.26,"endTime":2111.32,"body":"So what's interesting is that all of the, "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2104.26,"endTime":2111.32,"body":"like, the best performance management, programs  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2111.32,"endTime":2118.32,"body":"that we've designed and that we've reviewed "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2111.32,"endTime":2118.32,"body":"all inherently do this. M. Right. They set,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2118.32,"endTime":2122.88,"body":"they tell, they set the expectations. "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2118.32,"endTime":2122.88,"body":"They set high expectations for people,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2122.88,"endTime":2126.08,"body":"right. But right from the very "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2122.88,"endTime":2126.08,"body":"beginning, people know how they're  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2126.08,"endTime":2130.64,"body":"going to be evaluated in the role. They know "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2126.08,"endTime":2130.64,"body":"what success looks like. They, ah, you know,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2130.64,"endTime":2138.56,"body":"there's regular check ins to ensure that, they "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2130.64,"endTime":2138.56,"body":"are on track to meet their, performance metrics.  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2138.56,"endTime":2145.08,"body":"They are supported with what they need to either "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2138.56,"endTime":2145.08,"body":"get back on track or to continue to meet their  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2145.08,"endTime":2156.64,"body":"expectations. And we see this time and time again "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2145.08,"endTime":2156.64,"body":"when this perform, this type of productivity,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2156.64,"endTime":2164.2,"body":"focused performance management framework is "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2156.64,"endTime":2164.2,"body":"being utilized, people will regularly rise to  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2164.2,"endTime":2170.44,"body":"the occasion and meet the expectations that we "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2164.2,"endTime":2170.44,"body":"set. We can set high expectations, we can expect  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2170.44,"endTime":2176.62,"body":"a lot out of people, but we have an obligation "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2170.44,"endTime":2176.62,"body":"to support them to achieve those outcomes."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2176.62,"endTime":2180.0,"body":"And that's the key right there, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2176.62,"endTime":2180.0,"body":"because I'm sure when I first, explained it,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2180.0,"endTime":2184.44,"body":"someone's like, okay, guys, I don't believe you. "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2180.0,"endTime":2184.44,"body":"I've had bosses that have just set this crazy,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2184.44,"endTime":2189.76,"body":"ridiculous bar, and I wasn't any more motivated "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2184.44,"endTime":2189.76,"body":"to achieve it. I wasn't able to reach that bar,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2189.76,"endTime":2195.24,"body":"and I end up failing. and if that was, that was "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2189.76,"endTime":2195.24,"body":"you, I apologize. That's awful situation to be in,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2195.24,"endTime":2202.08,"body":"but that's not what we're talking about. The "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2195.24,"endTime":2202.08,"body":"Pygmalion effect requires that the conditions that  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2202.08,"endTime":2208.8,"body":"you work in are supporting that performance and "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2202.08,"endTime":2208.8,"body":"expectation, that you're being properly utilized  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2208.8,"endTime":2217.76,"body":"and being given the opportunity to achieve it. And "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2208.8,"endTime":2217.76,"body":"there's a bit of, a practical use of the skills  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2217.76,"endTime":2221.56,"body":"that you have. And then you're being set up in "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2217.76,"endTime":2221.56,"body":"a situation to be successful, and that you're  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2221.56,"endTime":2229.32,"body":"given feedback and encouragement and redirecting "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2221.56,"endTime":2229.32,"body":"and realignment when required. And if those three  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2229.32,"endTime":2235.0,"body":"things don't exist, then you're. Then it's. "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2229.32,"endTime":2235.0,"body":"You're not being given high expectations with  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2235.0,"endTime":2240.84,"body":"support. You're being set up to fail. M and that's "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2235.0,"endTime":2240.84,"body":"something, that is a big difference. But you're  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2240.84,"endTime":2246.24,"body":"right. The Pygmalion effect is more talked about "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2240.84,"endTime":2246.24,"body":"with high expectations and higher performance. But  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2246.24,"endTime":2252.2,"body":"it is about. It's actually a neutral idea that "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2246.24,"endTime":2252.2,"body":"it's about people rise to the expectations and  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2252.2,"endTime":2257.2,"body":"support that you give them. It's probably a better "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2252.2,"endTime":2257.2,"body":"way to define it in a more neutral way. A great  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2257.2,"endTime":2264.12,"body":"story. that kind of summarizes that is, when I was "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2257.2,"endTime":2264.12,"body":"working in an organization, this was fairly early  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2264.12,"endTime":2271.52,"body":"in my career. I, worked in a satellite office for "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2264.12,"endTime":2271.52,"body":"this large organization. And there was an employee  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2271.52,"endTime":2275.96,"body":"who worked in the organization with me who had "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2271.52,"endTime":2275.96,"body":"a job. And I don't know what she did because,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2275.96,"endTime":2282.12,"body":"man, she didn't do a whole lot. And her boss "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2275.96,"endTime":2282.12,"body":"was this kind of, like, whatever, stew stuff,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2282.12,"endTime":2288.2,"body":"don't do stuff like. Like, laid back to the point "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2282.12,"endTime":2288.2,"body":"of, like, really ineffective. And so I never  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2288.2,"endTime":2291.6,"body":"really knew what this person did. This person was "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2288.2,"endTime":2291.6,"body":"in this job for, like, for like a year or two. And  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2291.6,"endTime":2297.6,"body":"these were contract jobs that had to be renewed "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2291.6,"endTime":2297.6,"body":"by, like, it had to be renewed on an annual basis.  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2297.6,"endTime":2307.6,"body":"And at one point, the position that this woman "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2297.6,"endTime":2307.6,"body":"was in was going to be discontinued because of  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2307.6,"endTime":2316.92,"body":"how ineffective she was. And what happened was, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2307.6,"endTime":2316.92,"body":"her boss ended up getting fired because of his  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2316.92,"endTime":2323.84,"body":"lack of ability to manage. And her project being "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2316.92,"endTime":2323.84,"body":"unrenewed was one of the many straw that broke  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2323.84,"endTime":2330.76,"body":"the camels back, in a sense. A new manager came in "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2323.84,"endTime":2330.76,"body":"and said, okay, so I've got a year of this project  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2330.76,"endTime":2338.6,"body":"left, and it's already been canceled. So, I'm "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2330.76,"endTime":2338.6,"body":"going to bring somebody in who, let's see what  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2339.36,"endTime":2345.8,"body":"they can do with this job, because there's no real "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2339.36,"endTime":2345.8,"body":"floor on this job, because the job is already,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2345.8,"endTime":2349.32,"body":"the position's already been seen as a failure. "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2345.8,"endTime":2349.32,"body":"So whoever I bring in is going to kind of have  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2349.32,"endTime":2354.4,"body":"free reign to do something cool because they got "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2349.32,"endTime":2354.4,"body":"to burn off the rest of this contract. And let's  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2354.4,"endTime":2360.28,"body":"see what can happen. And what's interesting is "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2354.4,"endTime":2360.28,"body":"the person that this new manager, who wanted to  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2360.28,"endTime":2365.88,"body":"prove herself in the position, brought in "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2360.28,"endTime":2365.88,"body":"what she brought in you, James, this guy?"},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2365.88,"endTime":2374.72,"body":"Yeah. it's funny that you're "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2365.88,"endTime":2374.72,"body":"telling my story. yeah. So I guess to  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2374.72,"endTime":2381.88,"body":"kind of clarify a few things, early in my "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2374.72,"endTime":2381.88,"body":"career, yeah, Coby and I, we work together  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2381.88,"endTime":2387.96,"body":"for the same organization. and I was brought "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2381.88,"endTime":2387.96,"body":"in on a. I was told right from the beginning,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2387.96,"endTime":2392.8,"body":"you've got nine months left in this contract. The "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2387.96,"endTime":2392.8,"body":"contract's already slated to be, the funding has  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2392.8,"endTime":2397.32,"body":"already been pulled. so basically you've got a "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2392.8,"endTime":2397.32,"body":"nine month contract position, then you're done.  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2397.96,"endTime":2405.56,"body":"My manager in that time, I've talked about this "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2397.96,"endTime":2405.56,"body":"person in a, few different times in, our podcast  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2405.56,"endTime":2411.8,"body":"and in our work, because this person is still one "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2405.56,"endTime":2411.8,"body":"of my favorite human beings. Because the way that  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2411.8,"endTime":2422.0,"body":"she managed, my performance and supported me to do "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2411.8,"endTime":2422.0,"body":"cool things, really elevated my career trajectory.  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2422.56,"endTime":2430.2,"body":"so, yeah, we had nine months to do whatever we "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2422.56,"endTime":2430.2,"body":"want. Funders didn't really care because the,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2431.0,"endTime":2436.6,"body":"performance on that program was already so low "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2431.0,"endTime":2436.6,"body":"for the previous, like, three or five years,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2436.6,"endTime":2448.92,"body":"that, they were riding out the contract. What was "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2436.6,"endTime":2448.92,"body":"cool was working with my manager and her having  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2448.92,"endTime":2456.32,"body":"the faith in my ability to just come to me with "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2448.92,"endTime":2456.32,"body":"something cool that you want to do. We still need  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2456.32,"endTime":2463.52,"body":"to hit the broad outcomes, but the method that "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2456.32,"endTime":2463.52,"body":"we use to get there can be completely different.  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2463.52,"endTime":2472.28,"body":"It allowed me to research and design a new way "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2463.52,"endTime":2472.28,"body":"of, doing business development, through this  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2472.28,"endTime":2480.96,"body":"organization, to support businesses with their "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2472.28,"endTime":2480.96,"body":"recruitment and attraction, efforts. And what's  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2480.96,"endTime":2490.04,"body":"kind of amazing is that in the first six months "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2480.96,"endTime":2490.04,"body":"of that nine month dead contract, we were able  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2490.04,"endTime":2497.12,"body":"to produce, enough results that the funding "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2490.04,"endTime":2497.12,"body":"got extended. We went from a nine month dead  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2497.12,"endTime":2504.2,"body":"contract to within six months, it being renewed "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2497.12,"endTime":2504.2,"body":"for another year, within, another six months of  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2504.2,"endTime":2510.56,"body":"that. So three months into the new, newly renewed "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2504.2,"endTime":2510.56,"body":"contract, we were producing such results that we  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2510.56,"endTime":2516.64,"body":"were actually able to wrap that into core funding. "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2510.56,"endTime":2516.64,"body":"eventually, that program that I designed became a  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2516.64,"endTime":2522.26,"body":"provincial standard for employer engagement "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2516.64,"endTime":2522.26,"body":"programs, through these types of agencies."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2522.26,"endTime":2526.2,"body":"Yeah. So what's really great about one,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2526.2,"endTime":2531.58,"body":"it's kind of a cool story of how "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2526.2,"endTime":2531.58,"body":"you turned a absolutely dead job."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2531.58,"endTime":2534.68,"body":"I'm always happy to talk about myself."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2534.68,"endTime":2537.88,"body":"But it is very impressive that you "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2534.68,"endTime":2537.88,"body":"turned an absolutely dead job that everyone  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2537.88,"endTime":2544.2,"body":"had written off and moved away from it to the "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2537.88,"endTime":2544.2,"body":"new provincial standard in how to provide that  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2544.2,"endTime":2547.32,"body":"type of support to businesses. So that's just "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2544.2,"endTime":2547.32,"body":"a cool thing. I'm going to give you applause  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2547.32,"endTime":2553.88,"body":"on that. But it is also a great story that "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2547.32,"endTime":2553.88,"body":"exemplifies both sides of the pygmalion effect.  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2553.88,"endTime":2560.56,"body":"Your predecessor and her boss were a great example "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2553.88,"endTime":2560.56,"body":"of, if you set low standards and you don't create  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2560.56,"endTime":2564.68,"body":"the conditions that support high productivity, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2560.56,"endTime":2564.68,"body":"you don't utilize fuel effectively and you don't,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2564.68,"endTime":2571.92,"body":"provide good feedback, they will meet that "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2564.68,"endTime":2571.92,"body":"poor expectation with poor results versus when  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2571.92,"endTime":2578.84,"body":"your boss came in and hired you. She set high "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2571.92,"endTime":2578.84,"body":"expectations for you to achieve something. She  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2578.84,"endTime":2583.12,"body":"gave you the conditions and the support to do "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2578.84,"endTime":2583.12,"body":"that. She properly utilized your skillsets and  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2583.12,"endTime":2587.96,"body":"gave you the feedback and the course corrections "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2583.12,"endTime":2587.96,"body":"you needed in order to achieve high performance.  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2587.96,"endTime":2593.92,"body":"And you even blew her expectations out of "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2587.96,"endTime":2593.92,"body":"the water. And that is what can happen with  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2593.92,"endTime":2601.84,"body":"a mindset shift. And by leveraging the pygmalion "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2593.92,"endTime":2601.84,"body":"effect, you can resurrect the dead in a sense."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2601.84,"endTime":2605.86,"body":"but walk back from that statement."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2605.86,"endTime":2611.56,"body":"Yeah, maybe. Yeah, we'll cut that out in "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2605.86,"endTime":2611.56,"body":"editing, but honestly. But you can achieve great  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2611.56,"endTime":2616.0,"body":"things by this, by this idea. And what's so funny "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2611.56,"endTime":2616.0,"body":"is you're like, well, when I first explained this  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2616.0,"endTime":2619.96,"body":"to you, you're like, well, isn't that common? "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2616.0,"endTime":2619.96,"body":"Shouldn't that be common sense? And I'm like,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2619.96,"endTime":2626.48,"body":"yeah, but it's not. But it is something that "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2619.96,"endTime":2626.48,"body":"is not common enough to be common sense."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2626.48,"endTime":2628.88,"body":"Yeah. So this is just not common."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2628.88,"endTime":2634.76,"body":"Exactly. So I think that one of the "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2628.88,"endTime":2634.76,"body":"ways that we can, tee this up a little bit,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2634.76,"endTime":2641.36,"body":"too, is the way that we utilize this focus "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2634.76,"endTime":2641.36,"body":"around conditions, utilization and feedback  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2641.36,"endTime":2647.6,"body":"is something that is built into how we rebuild "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2641.36,"endTime":2647.6,"body":"performance management tools and programs. So  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2647.6,"endTime":2653.44,"body":"a lot of the work that we do when we go into "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2647.6,"endTime":2653.44,"body":"organizations going to help them with their  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2653.44,"endTime":2660.0,"body":"talent transformations is trying to build some "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2653.44,"endTime":2660.0,"body":"type of system that creates the kind of conditions  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2660.0,"endTime":2664.76,"body":"similar to what you experienced early on in your "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2660.0,"endTime":2664.76,"body":"career, but has been proven to improve portfolio  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2664.76,"endTime":2669.12,"body":"performance. Leveraging the Pygmalion effect "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2664.76,"endTime":2669.12,"body":"and a lot of the ways we talk about that is a  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2669.12,"endTime":2676.04,"body":"really simple way we talk about it, in terms of "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2669.12,"endTime":2676.04,"body":"rules that empower, creating the benchmarks and  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2676.04,"endTime":2683.36,"body":"the goalposts and the expectations that let people "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2676.04,"endTime":2683.36,"body":"kind of hit those high peaks that, again, leverage  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2683.36,"endTime":2688.6,"body":"high expectations to turn into high performance. "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2683.36,"endTime":2688.6,"body":"And it's in, I think we have a program where  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2688.6,"endTime":2693.48,"body":"we talk about that. and maybe it's called the "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2688.6,"endTime":2693.48,"body":"autonomy Freeway, and maybe we can do an episode  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2693.48,"endTime":2697.4,"body":"about that down the road because we're kind of "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2693.48,"endTime":2697.4,"body":"running low on time now. But I would like for us  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2697.4,"endTime":2703.28,"body":"to kind of just steer this Pygmalion effect, human "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2697.4,"endTime":2703.28,"body":"required rules that empower kind of, and talk  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2703.28,"endTime":2710.52,"body":"about it in terms of the more common realities of "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2703.28,"endTime":2710.52,"body":"remote teams and multiple location organizations."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2710.52,"endTime":2718.96,"body":"Yeah, so, a, lot of our clients, "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2710.52,"endTime":2718.96,"body":"have multiple locations. Ah, so managing  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2718.96,"endTime":2725.64,"body":"performance across multiple locations, or managing "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2718.96,"endTime":2725.64,"body":"performance with teams that are, whether they're  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2725.64,"endTime":2730.48,"body":"multiple locations being others, like satellite "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2725.64,"endTime":2730.48,"body":"offices, or they work from home, it doesn't really  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2730.48,"endTime":2741.72,"body":"matter what, we tend to do. I use the language of "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2730.48,"endTime":2741.72,"body":"guardrails earlier. so perform a really robust,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2741.72,"endTime":2749.28,"body":"excellent, performance management system is "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2741.72,"endTime":2749.28,"body":"going to very clearly set the expectations of,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2749.28,"endTime":2753.12,"body":"here's what you're expected, here are what your "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2749.28,"endTime":2753.12,"body":"responsibilities are, here's how we are going.  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2753.12,"endTime":2761.36,"body":"Defining success, in this role. And on one side, "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2753.12,"endTime":2761.36,"body":"that becomes your guardrail, on the other side,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2761.36,"endTime":2766.96,"body":"it's. Here are the things that you can't do, "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2761.36,"endTime":2766.96,"body":"right. Here are the, don't cross these lines,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2766.96,"endTime":2775.16,"body":"these boundaries. But the, your opportunity to do "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2766.96,"endTime":2775.16,"body":"cool stuff rests in between those two guardrails  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2775.16,"endTime":2783.52,"body":"of expectations, clear definitions of success "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2775.16,"endTime":2783.52,"body":"and rules that empower. Setting the limits of,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2784.12,"endTime":2790.8,"body":"as long as you're not doing x, y, and z, you're "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2784.12,"endTime":2790.8,"body":"good to go. Right. That framework becomes very,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2790.8,"endTime":2799.2,"body":"very powerful motivational tool and performance "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2790.8,"endTime":2799.2,"body":"management tool, because you also need to temper,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2799.2,"endTime":2804.8,"body":"that with regular check ins. Right. How are "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2799.2,"endTime":2804.8,"body":"things going? We've set the expectations. We  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2804.8,"endTime":2812.0,"body":"know how we're going to measure, the success in "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2804.8,"endTime":2812.0,"body":"your job. So, on a, if you're managing a remote  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2812.0,"endTime":2817.0,"body":"team or people, who work from home, you're "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2812.0,"endTime":2817.0,"body":"probably going to want to do the check ins a  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2817.0,"endTime":2821.72,"body":"little more often, whether that's bi weekly, "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2817.0,"endTime":2821.72,"body":"to see. Okay, here's what we've stated is,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2821.72,"endTime":2828.56,"body":"our metrics for success. How are you in achieving "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2821.72,"endTime":2828.56,"body":"those? Okay, what do you need from me as your  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2828.56,"endTime":2836.2,"body":"manager to make sure that you can achieve those "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2828.56,"endTime":2836.2,"body":"goals bi weekly basis? 1520 minutes conversation.  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2836.2,"endTime":2841.76,"body":"Regular check ins can make all the difference "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2836.2,"endTime":2841.76,"body":"in the world. If you have these guard weight  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2841.76,"endTime":2851.88,"body":"guardrails in place that focus people's energies, "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2841.76,"endTime":2851.88,"body":"it's just again, it's one of those things that it  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2851.88,"endTime":2861.12,"body":"makes sense and should be common, but it's "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2851.88,"endTime":2861.12,"body":"not commonly applied. but we see this as a,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2861.12,"endTime":2868.28,"body":"we not only see it, we have seen it in action "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2861.12,"endTime":2868.28,"body":"with clients. We regularly see this in action  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2868.28,"endTime":2875.88,"body":"improving the way that managers, are able to "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2868.28,"endTime":2875.88,"body":"manage teams, whether that is multiple location,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2875.88,"endTime":2883.88,"body":"whether that is work from home, and really improve "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2875.88,"endTime":2883.88,"body":"the overall performance of individuals, of teams,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2883.88,"endTime":2890.28,"body":"and of organizations when this mentality "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2883.88,"endTime":2890.28,"body":"is taken and applied throughout a company."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2890.28,"endTime":2896.84,"body":"Absolutely. And a lot of what is "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2890.28,"endTime":2896.84,"body":"fundamental to making a lot of these stuff  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2896.84,"endTime":2905.32,"body":"work is being prepared to manage people a little "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2896.84,"endTime":2905.32,"body":"bit differently. This isn't your grandparents way  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2905.32,"endTime":2913.48,"body":"to manage people. This really is about what "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2905.32,"endTime":2913.48,"body":"works in today's workforce climate. So we're  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2913.48,"endTime":2919.4,"body":"going to do a really quick recap. I think this "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2913.48,"endTime":2919.4,"body":"has been a good conversation. So what can be  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2919.4,"endTime":2923.6,"body":"done to improve employee performance? "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2919.4,"endTime":2923.6,"body":"Well, again, the big question is,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2923.6,"endTime":2927.6,"body":"how are you viewing performance management? "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2923.6,"endTime":2927.6,"body":"Are you seeing it as a tool of control,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2927.6,"endTime":2932.64,"body":"or are you seeing it as a tool for productivity? "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2927.6,"endTime":2932.64,"body":"That is kind of the foundation. First thing you  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2932.64,"endTime":2936.88,"body":"need to really be asking yourself when you're "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2932.64,"endTime":2936.88,"body":"trying to increase employee performance,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2936.88,"endTime":2944.8,"body":"because how we view employee relations and HR "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2936.88,"endTime":2944.8,"body":"has a lot of impact on the way that we, again,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2944.8,"endTime":2953.12,"body":"utilize systems to manage employee performance. "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2944.8,"endTime":2953.12,"body":"Are we trying to just hold people to a generic  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2953.12,"endTime":2958.44,"body":"standard of checking boxes by holding, having "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2953.12,"endTime":2958.44,"body":"a holding red tape department? Are we just  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2958.44,"endTime":2965.08,"body":"trying to put out, fires and mitigate the problems "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2958.44,"endTime":2965.08,"body":"because we have a highly reactive department? Are  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2965.08,"endTime":2970.2,"body":"we trying to suppress people through a hovering "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2965.08,"endTime":2970.2,"body":"and restricting department? Or do we actually  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2970.2,"endTime":2976.72,"body":"have a humans required department? That is about "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2970.2,"endTime":2976.72,"body":"trying to achieve, optimal performance and optimal  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2976.72,"endTime":2984.56,"body":"productivity through investing in people and using "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2976.72,"endTime":2984.56,"body":"people, and providing resources to humans. We need  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2984.56,"endTime":2989.72,"body":"to be more aware of looking into the Pygmalion "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2984.56,"endTime":2989.72,"body":"effect and the impact that higher expectations  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2989.72,"endTime":2994.4,"body":"can become a self fulfilling prophecy towards "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2989.72,"endTime":2994.4,"body":"higher performance if we have the conditions,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2994.4,"endTime":2999.4,"body":"utilization, and feedback to get them there. "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2994.4,"endTime":2999.4,"body":"Ultimately, if you want to talk about improving  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2999.4,"endTime":3003.52,"body":"employee performance when it comes to remote "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2999.4,"endTime":3003.52,"body":"teams in multiple locations, we have to be  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":3003.52,"endTime":3010.04,"body":"prepared to manage differently. Look at rules "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":3003.52,"endTime":3010.04,"body":"that empower, look at setting clear expectations,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":3010.04,"endTime":3014.56,"body":"set the guardrails that will help people kind of "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":3010.04,"endTime":3014.56,"body":"achieve what they want. You know, what they need  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":3014.56,"endTime":3020.16,"body":"to in order to optimize performance. But we have "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":3014.56,"endTime":3020.16,"body":"to realize that this, a lot of this, this sounds  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":3020.16,"endTime":3025.32,"body":"like a big change to you. Then going through, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":3020.16,"endTime":3025.32,"body":"seeing this as potential, a transformative  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":3025.32,"endTime":3031.12,"body":"process might be the reality of it. And those "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":3025.32,"endTime":3031.12,"body":"things aren't necessarily quick, cheap, or easy,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":3031.12,"endTime":3037.8,"body":"but if you want to actually do something about "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":3031.12,"endTime":3037.8,"body":"employee performance if they may be necessary.  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":3037.8,"endTime":3042.68,"body":"All right, so that about does it for us. For "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":3037.8,"endTime":3042.68,"body":"a full archive of the podcast and access to  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":3042.68,"endTime":3049.22,"body":"the video version hosted on our YouTube channel, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":3042.68,"endTime":3049.22,"body":"visit www.roman3.ca/podcast thanks for joining us."},{"speaker":"[ANNOUNCER]","startTime":3049.22,"endTime":3052.6,"body":"For more information on "},{"speaker":"[ANNOUNCER]","startTime":3049.22,"endTime":3052.6,"body":"topics like these, don't forget to  "},{"speaker":"[ANNOUNCER]","startTime":3052.6,"endTime":3058.44,"body":"visit us at www.roman3.ca. Side effects of "},{"speaker":"[ANNOUNCER]","startTime":3052.6,"endTime":3058.44,"body":"this podcast may include improved retention,  "},{"speaker":"[ANNOUNCER]","startTime":3058.44,"endTime":3062.8,"body":"high productivity, increased market share, "},{"speaker":"[ANNOUNCER]","startTime":3058.44,"endTime":3062.8,"body":"employees breaking out in spontaneous dance,  "},{"speaker":"[ANNOUNCER]","startTime":3062.8,"endTime":3069.44,"body":"dry mouth, a version to the sound of James "},{"speaker":"[ANNOUNCER]","startTime":3062.8,"endTime":3069.44,"body":"voice desire to find a better podcast."}]}