{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"[ANNOUNCER]","startTime":0.0,"endTime":5.4,"body":"Breaking down everyday workplace "},{"speaker":"[ANNOUNCER]","startTime":0.0,"endTime":5.4,"body":"issues and diagnosing the hidden sickness,  "},{"speaker":"[ANNOUNCER]","startTime":5.4,"endTime":10.16,"body":"not just the obvious symptom. "},{"speaker":"[ANNOUNCER]","startTime":5.4,"endTime":10.16,"body":"Our hosts, James and Coby."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":10.16,"endTime":11.98,"body":"Did we lose a patient?"},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":11.98,"endTime":14.9,"body":"No, that's just my lunch."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":14.9,"endTime":19.76,"body":"Hey, thanks for joining us. I'm Coby,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":19.76,"endTime":27.82,"body":"he's James. And let's get started with a "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":19.76,"endTime":27.82,"body":"question. Are we sheltering toxic leaders?"},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":27.82,"endTime":36.16,"body":"I think the simple answer is yes. far "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":27.82,"endTime":36.16,"body":"too often we see leaders and managers that either  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":36.16,"endTime":42.8,"body":"they have toxic personalities, which is a big "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":36.16,"endTime":42.8,"body":"problem, or they create toxic environments,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":42.8,"endTime":52.16,"body":"which is probably far more common than just the "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":42.8,"endTime":52.16,"body":"toxic person. But we see them being sheltered,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":52.16,"endTime":60.08,"body":"protected, and mind bogglingly even promote it. "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":52.16,"endTime":60.08,"body":"And I don't think that companies set out with any  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":60.08,"endTime":68.12,"body":"intent to shelter toxic leaders. I think a lot of "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":60.08,"endTime":68.12,"body":"the problem comes down to how we actually measure  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":68.12,"endTime":75.04,"body":"success. Because there's a common saying that what "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":68.12,"endTime":75.04,"body":"we measure is what matters. And way too often the  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":75.04,"endTime":82.04,"body":"measurements for that companies or that we put "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":75.04,"endTime":82.04,"body":"on leaders and managers have little or nothing  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":82.04,"endTime":87.44,"body":"to do with how they actually treat, treat people "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":82.04,"endTime":87.44,"body":"or whether or not they burn through their team  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":87.44,"endTime":95.0,"body":"members or any of the myriad of other negative "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":87.44,"endTime":95.0,"body":"effects that toxic leadership can have. So I  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":95.0,"endTime":102.28,"body":"think what I'd like to do in our conversation is "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":95.0,"endTime":102.28,"body":"to talk a bit about where toxic leaders come from,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":102.28,"endTime":108.08,"body":"why we end up sheltering them, and then some "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":102.28,"endTime":108.08,"body":"examples that we've seen of the negative impacts  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":108.08,"endTime":114.52,"body":"that toxic leaders have not only on the people "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":108.08,"endTime":114.52,"body":"who they are responsible for because it's huge and  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":114.52,"endTime":119.96,"body":"pervasive, but also the negative impact that they "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":114.52,"endTime":119.96,"body":"have on the company that they are responsible to."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":119.96,"endTime":126.4,"body":"Yeah, it's a like, like I say, it's "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":119.96,"endTime":126.4,"body":"kind of a like interesting question of do,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":126.4,"endTime":129.4,"body":"are we sheltering them? Well, yeah, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":126.4,"endTime":129.4,"body":"we are. But that's not, that's not,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":129.4,"endTime":131.28,"body":"that's not the whole, that's "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":129.4,"endTime":131.28,"body":"not the whole answer. Right?"},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":131.28,"endTime":132.98,"body":"That's not the "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":131.28,"endTime":132.98,"body":"whole picture either. Right?"},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":132.98,"endTime":139.56,"body":"Yeah, exactly like we are, but like "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":132.98,"endTime":139.56,"body":"it's, it's a bit organic in how and why and  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":139.56,"endTime":144.56,"body":"what it looks like. And I think one of the "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":139.56,"endTime":144.56,"body":"problems with this whole conversation about  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":144.56,"endTime":152.84,"body":"toxic leadership and everything like that is it's "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":144.56,"endTime":152.84,"body":"so common. These like, like toxic environments,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":152.84,"endTime":159.96,"body":"toxic leaders, toxic, you know, like team "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":152.84,"endTime":159.96,"body":"dynamics are so pervasive that it's almost like,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":159.96,"endTime":163.88,"body":"you know. Oh, it's almost like. Yeah, I guess "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":159.96,"endTime":163.88,"body":"if I have to step back and look at it, yeah,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":163.88,"endTime":168.8,"body":"that isn't great. But it's so normal "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":163.88,"endTime":168.8,"body":"that it's something that it's really,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":168.8,"endTime":172.12,"body":"it's important to talk about, it's important "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":168.8,"endTime":172.12,"body":"to identify and it's important to put a label  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":172.12,"endTime":174.96,"body":"to things. So we can step back and "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":172.12,"endTime":174.96,"body":"look at them a little bit of clarity."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":174.96,"endTime":180.32,"body":"It is important to put a label to "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":174.96,"endTime":180.32,"body":"things. I do have some issues with the label  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":180.32,"endTime":187.48,"body":"because we talk about toxic leadership and it's "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":180.32,"endTime":187.48,"body":"not. Or. And I even use the term toxic leaders,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":187.48,"endTime":192.32,"body":"which I don't think is a, necessarily a "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":187.48,"endTime":192.32,"body":"fair characterization because rarely is it  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":192.32,"endTime":200.88,"body":"malicious. Yeah, I mean, people who are just "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":192.32,"endTime":200.88,"body":"blatantly malicious and toxic don't tend to  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":200.88,"endTime":206.04,"body":"stick around. Right. We identify those people "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":200.88,"endTime":206.04,"body":"who. There are people who are just hateful.  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":207.16,"endTime":212.64,"body":"Sometimes they're protected. More often than not, "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":207.16,"endTime":212.64,"body":"we don't want those people around. And the toxic  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":212.64,"endTime":223.16,"body":"behaviors or the toxicity comes from not. It's "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":212.64,"endTime":223.16,"body":"not who the person is, but it's a effect of the  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":223.16,"endTime":228.8,"body":"choices and the actions that they take. And so I, "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":223.16,"endTime":228.8,"body":"do want to have. Just make sure that we're talking  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":228.8,"endTime":234.72,"body":"about. This is rarely. Are we talking about "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":228.8,"endTime":234.72,"body":"people who are actively malicious and hateful."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":234.72,"endTime":239.72,"body":"Yeah. I think it's maybe it's "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":234.72,"endTime":239.72,"body":"even fair to kind of say the question  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":240.64,"endTime":244.44,"body":"could be better, like explaining "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":240.64,"endTime":244.44,"body":"and expanded on by saying, are we  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":244.44,"endTime":248.58,"body":"sheltering leaders and managers "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":244.44,"endTime":248.58,"body":"that create toxic environment?"},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":248.58,"endTime":251.16,"body":"Yeah. It's just not as pithy. And."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":251.16,"endTime":251.84,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":251.84,"endTime":256.12,"body":"It doesn't fit on the, "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":251.84,"endTime":256.12,"body":"on the title card quite as well."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":256.12,"endTime":259.16,"body":"Exactly. Yeah. So we'll stick with the "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":256.12,"endTime":259.16,"body":"question for the title card. But that's really  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":259.16,"endTime":263.08,"body":"what we're talking about is managers and leaders "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":259.16,"endTime":263.08,"body":"that create toxic environments and toxic cultures  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":263.08,"endTime":269.88,"body":"within their teams and within their organizations. "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":263.08,"endTime":269.88,"body":"So. Yeah. So you said that title. It is. Yeah.  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":269.88,"endTime":274.2,"body":"I wouldn't listen to that episode. That "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":269.88,"endTime":274.2,"body":"sounds boring. but the idea of we should,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":274.2,"endTime":276.7,"body":"you know. So you want to talk "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":274.2,"endTime":276.7,"body":"about where talk leaders come from."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":276.7,"endTime":277.12,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":277.12,"endTime":280.76,"body":"And then why we're. Then why "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":277.12,"endTime":280.76,"body":"we're sheltering them. So I think that,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":281.84,"endTime":288.16,"body":"probably a great first place to see where "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":281.84,"endTime":288.16,"body":"they come from is they kind of come from.  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":288.16,"endTime":297.36,"body":"There's. There's one thing that I've seen a lot "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":288.16,"endTime":297.36,"body":"is this ignorance to the reality of how messy,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":297.36,"endTime":304.72,"body":"leadership is. And the idea that leaders have to "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":297.36,"endTime":304.72,"body":"be infallible, that, leaders can't be vulnerable.  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":304.72,"endTime":310.64,"body":"Leaders have to be. Have to be infallible. And "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":304.72,"endTime":310.64,"body":"there's this expectation and there's cultures  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":310.64,"endTime":315.0,"body":"that kind of have this baked into them. "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":310.64,"endTime":315.0,"body":"A lot of traditional mindsets is where a  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":315.0,"endTime":319.76,"body":"lot of that comes from, that your leader "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":315.0,"endTime":319.76,"body":"has to be. Has. You can't be questioned,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":319.76,"endTime":323.84,"body":"has to be infallible. Can't make decision, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":319.76,"endTime":323.84,"body":"can't make mistakes. Every decision is  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":323.84,"endTime":329.64,"body":"final. And that is where that's a. That's a "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":323.84,"endTime":329.64,"body":"breeding ground for. For toxic Leadership."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":329.64,"endTime":339.68,"body":"Yeah. And it, it is a pervasive problem "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":329.64,"endTime":339.68,"body":"because I, and I, I get it. Because as someone  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":339.68,"endTime":345.24,"body":"in a position of authority, you want others "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":339.68,"endTime":345.24,"body":"to look to you as the expert. Right. You want  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":345.24,"endTime":357.0,"body":"to have the answers to people's questions. You "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":345.24,"endTime":357.0,"body":"want to be seen as the, person in charge. And we  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":357.0,"endTime":362.36,"body":"equate that with having all of the answers. We "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":357.0,"endTime":362.36,"body":"equate that with never making a mistake or not  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":362.36,"endTime":367.36,"body":"being able to show vulnerability. And I mean, we "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":362.36,"endTime":367.36,"body":"don't need to get into where all that comes from.  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":367.36,"endTime":375.0,"body":"Whether it's, you know, media that we consume, "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":367.36,"endTime":375.0,"body":"television, movies, or you know, just pervasive,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":375.0,"endTime":382.48,"body":"expectations that we've set. And it doesn't really "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":375.0,"endTime":382.48,"body":"matter. I think the important thing to identify  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":382.48,"endTime":389.56,"body":"is that there is this pervasive perception "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":382.48,"endTime":389.56,"body":"that a good leader doesn't make mistakes.  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":390.44,"endTime":398.64,"body":"Right. And I can tell you the, some of the "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":390.44,"endTime":398.64,"body":"best leaders and managers that I have worked  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":398.64,"endTime":407.24,"body":"with have been very flawed and very open about it "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":398.64,"endTime":407.24,"body":"though. Right. And it's the desire to do better  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":407.24,"endTime":414.84,"body":"that tends to be the redeeming quality, "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":407.24,"endTime":414.84,"body":"the openness to, damn, I, I messed up.  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":414.84,"endTime":421.14,"body":"But here's how we're going to work through this "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":414.84,"endTime":421.14,"body":"together. Is a really powerful leadership tool."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":421.14,"endTime":426.04,"body":"Oh, it is. And I mean, and it's, and "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":421.14,"endTime":426.04,"body":"I think that the need for the expectation of  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":426.04,"endTime":432.32,"body":"infallibility, like I say, I think it's a very "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":426.04,"endTime":432.32,"body":"traditional, mindset that's kind of been baked  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":432.32,"endTime":435.6,"body":"in and ingrained and kind of like you say, kind "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":432.32,"endTime":435.6,"body":"of culture and stuff like that too. But there is  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":435.6,"endTime":439.48,"body":"an expectation of now that I'm the boss, now "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":435.6,"endTime":439.48,"body":"that I'm the leader, I have to be perfect,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":439.48,"endTime":444.72,"body":"I have, you know, I can't be questioned and this "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":439.48,"endTime":444.72,"body":"and that and then some. Sometimes it's a matter  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":444.72,"endTime":449.84,"body":"of trying to like enforce that expectation "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":444.72,"endTime":449.84,"body":"is what kind of creates more, the more overt  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":449.84,"endTime":455.507,"body":"and the more like aggressive, toxic behavior. "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":449.84,"endTime":455.507,"body":"and, but the whole idea that it really does  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":455.507,"endTime":463.88,"body":"is just going to come from this, this absolute "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":455.507,"endTime":463.88,"body":"ignorance to the reality of the human condition  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":463.88,"endTime":470.92,"body":"and the reality of the workplace, that leaders are "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":463.88,"endTime":470.92,"body":"people, they need to be able to try things out,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":470.92,"endTime":476.48,"body":"make mistakes. And a good leader is someone "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":470.92,"endTime":476.48,"body":"that owns that. And it's not just people that  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":476.48,"endTime":481.84,"body":"we work with. We've seen great leaders in "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":476.48,"endTime":481.84,"body":"great organizations. And one common thing  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":481.84,"endTime":486.36,"body":"that most almost, I can see, I can't think "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":481.84,"endTime":486.36,"body":"of any of them that don't have this, is they  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":486.36,"endTime":490.64,"body":"have the self awareness to kind of say, yeah, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":486.36,"endTime":490.64,"body":"I don't know, and I'm going to ask questions,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":490.64,"endTime":495.08,"body":"we'll try this and I'll it might make a mistake. "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":490.64,"endTime":495.08,"body":"They're willing to be vulnerable. They're willing  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":495.08,"endTime":501.84,"body":"to put themselves out there. They're willing to be "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":495.08,"endTime":501.84,"body":"wrong. And it's, it's such a night and day between  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":501.84,"endTime":506.72,"body":"those kinds of leaders and the ones that feel they "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":501.84,"endTime":506.72,"body":"have to be infallible for how effective they are."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":506.72,"endTime":509.44,"body":"Yeah. That willingness to be wrong  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":510.2,"endTime":517.88,"body":"is such a powerful. And it's not only a powerful "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":510.2,"endTime":517.88,"body":"tool in terms of making sure that things  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":517.88,"endTime":522.38,"body":"actually get done, because you can't really try "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":517.88,"endTime":522.38,"body":"anything new if you're not willing to be wrong."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":522.38,"endTime":523.48,"body":"Right. Yeah."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":523.48,"endTime":528.44,"body":"Like that's what keeps people "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":523.48,"endTime":528.44,"body":"in the same hamster wheel of doing the  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":528.44,"endTime":531.76,"body":"same thing day in and day out and "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":528.44,"endTime":531.76,"body":"getting the same terrible results."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":531.76,"endTime":532.64,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":532.64,"endTime":538.92,"body":"But also from a personal perspective,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":538.92,"endTime":546.88,"body":"when you get to that point of allowing "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":538.92,"endTime":546.88,"body":"yourself to make mistakes, it's very freeing."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":546.88,"endTime":547.92,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":547.92,"endTime":552.28,"body":"Because we all make mistakes. "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":547.92,"endTime":552.28,"body":"Nobody wants to get things wrong,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":552.28,"endTime":556.36,"body":"nobody wants to screw up, but we all do it."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":556.36,"endTime":556.92,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":556.92,"endTime":559.8,"body":"I mean, there's no getting "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":556.92,"endTime":559.8,"body":"around that. And giving yourself  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":559.8,"endTime":563.92,"body":"permission and acknowledging that "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":559.8,"endTime":563.92,"body":"with your team when it happens is  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":563.92,"endTime":569.52,"body":"such a powerful tool for building trust and "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":563.92,"endTime":569.52,"body":"relation, good relationships with people."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":569.52,"endTime":573.88,"body":"And so I want to focus just "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":569.52,"endTime":573.88,"body":"on this one that we should move on to."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":573.88,"endTime":576.34,"body":"Probably going off on a tangent, but."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":576.34,"endTime":579.04,"body":"One last thing I do want to "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":576.34,"endTime":579.04,"body":"say about it though, is that is again,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":579.04,"endTime":583.04,"body":"someone listening to this might be like, well, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":579.04,"endTime":583.04,"body":"I'm in the leadership role and the expectation  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":583.04,"endTime":587.28,"body":"is on me from those above me, from the "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":583.04,"endTime":587.28,"body":"board or from whomever that have to be  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":587.28,"endTime":593.68,"body":"infallible. And that's. And that's a tough "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":587.28,"endTime":593.68,"body":"place to be in. But I mean, part of it is,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":593.68,"endTime":601.72,"body":"is that expectation overtly said to you, or are "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":593.68,"endTime":601.72,"body":"you assuming that expectation? And if you're  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":601.72,"endTime":606.76,"body":"asking yourself the question of, well, what "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":601.72,"endTime":606.76,"body":"do I do when the person above me expects that,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":606.76,"endTime":611.3,"body":"Honestly, my advice would be to see clarity. "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":606.76,"endTime":611.3,"body":"Like, just have that as an open discussion."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":611.3,"endTime":611.76,"body":"Provide."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":611.76,"endTime":615.52,"body":"You have little safety "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":611.76,"endTime":615.52,"body":"to do that. But I mean, clarify,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":615.52,"endTime":619.96,"body":"is it an unspoken expectation or "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":615.52,"endTime":619.96,"body":"are, you know, or. Or is it that,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":619.96,"endTime":622.82,"body":"or is it an assumption? And I think "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":619.96,"endTime":622.82,"body":"getting that clarity can be helpful."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":622.82,"endTime":626.0,"body":"It can even come up when you're "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":622.82,"endTime":626.0,"body":"looking to do, if you are the leader,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":626.0,"endTime":630.56,"body":"if you were responsible for a board and anytime "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":626.0,"endTime":630.56,"body":"that you're trying something new, acknowledging  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":630.56,"endTime":637.8,"body":"with whomever you're responsible, to that, "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":630.56,"endTime":637.8,"body":"hey, this is what we're going to do. There's,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":637.8,"endTime":642.28,"body":"in all honesty, there's a possibility "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":637.8,"endTime":642.28,"body":"that it could not work out. You know,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":642.28,"endTime":646.6,"body":"create that plan and that dialogue with "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":642.28,"endTime":646.6,"body":"them could be a way to find out whether  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":646.6,"endTime":650.62,"body":"or not that's an overt or expectation "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":646.6,"endTime":650.62,"body":"or something that you're reading into."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":650.62,"endTime":651.38,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":651.38,"endTime":657.84,"body":"But I think, getting back to the actual "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":651.38,"endTime":657.84,"body":"question of are we sheltering and where do they  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":657.84,"endTime":666.48,"body":"come from? I think a big part of where they come "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":657.84,"endTime":666.48,"body":"from is people gaming the system. We see this a  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":666.48,"endTime":674.48,"body":"lot in more corporate environments, honestly. in "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":666.48,"endTime":674.48,"body":"large corporate structures where there's many,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":674.48,"endTime":685.68,"body":"many, many layers and levels to the hierarchy. "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":674.48,"endTime":685.68,"body":"and people can kind of use, you know, position  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":685.68,"endTime":693.24,"body":"themselves and use titles creatively to continue "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":685.68,"endTime":693.24,"body":"their career advancement. And there's nothing  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":693.24,"endTime":696.44,"body":"necessarily wrong. There's nothing wrong with "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":693.24,"endTime":696.44,"body":"career advancement. There's nothing wrong with  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":696.44,"endTime":703.96,"body":"internal succession. But it really, to me I think "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":696.44,"endTime":703.96,"body":"it relates closely to the Peter Principle. Right.  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":703.96,"endTime":713.0,"body":"This idea that people get promoted in a hierarchy "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":703.96,"endTime":713.0,"body":"to kind of the level of incompetence. Essentially  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":713.0,"endTime":719.76,"body":"you get. Employees get promoted based on their "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":713.0,"endTime":719.76,"body":"success in previous roles until they reach a  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":719.76,"endTime":726.16,"body":"level where they're no longer competent because "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":719.76,"endTime":726.16,"body":"the skills that they had to perform their previous  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":726.16,"endTime":731.76,"body":"role are no longer the skills that they actually "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":726.16,"endTime":731.76,"body":"need to perform their new role. I mean Dilbert's  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":731.76,"endTime":740.08,"body":"a great comic, that talks about this all the "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":731.76,"endTime":740.08,"body":"time. Right? Yeah, I love it. but that idea  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":740.08,"endTime":749.56,"body":"of not being properly prepared for the new role "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":740.08,"endTime":749.56,"body":"that you are taking on, whether that's through,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":749.56,"endTime":755.16,"body":"you know, you've been legitimately successful "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":749.56,"endTime":755.16,"body":"and you've got promotion after promotion or  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":755.16,"endTime":761.0,"body":"unfortunately we see people not being successful "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":755.16,"endTime":761.0,"body":"but being very successful in navigating the  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":761.0,"endTime":768.32,"body":"internal politics of organizations being promoted "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":761.0,"endTime":768.32,"body":"into a place where they are completely ill suited."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":768.32,"endTime":771.4,"body":"Yeah. Well, and one of the "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":768.32,"endTime":771.4,"body":"things that's. That's tough kind of,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":771.4,"endTime":776.84,"body":"kind of tying into the gaming kind of gaming "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":771.4,"endTime":776.84,"body":"the system and building their career kind of  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":776.84,"endTime":784.28,"body":"through the politics is often it's a quest for "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":776.84,"endTime":784.28,"body":"the benefits of the promotion of the authority,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":784.28,"endTime":788.8,"body":"the pay, the prestige and wanting "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":784.28,"endTime":788.8,"body":"that, but not necessarily the job."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":788.8,"endTime":789.56,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":789.56,"endTime":793.96,"body":"And some of that comes "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":789.56,"endTime":793.96,"body":"from you know, when the lower,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":793.96,"endTime":800.12,"body":"when in the hierarchy, when compensation and you "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":793.96,"endTime":800.12,"body":"know the actual like, you know, employee benefits,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":800.12,"endTime":804.64,"body":"everything like that don't really help you "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":800.12,"endTime":804.64,"body":"with your quality of life until you reach  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":804.64,"endTime":809.56,"body":"a certain level. That's when people are trying "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":804.64,"endTime":809.56,"body":"to get to that, that level for that they don't.  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":809.56,"endTime":813.44,"body":"It's not about the job. It's. It's just about "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":809.56,"endTime":813.44,"body":"kind of getting to that point because they feel  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":813.44,"endTime":817.64,"body":"like there's a, There's a big disparity and a "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":813.44,"endTime":817.64,"body":"lack of equity between know, kind of salary,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":817.64,"endTime":821.76,"body":"bans. But a lot of times it's really more about "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":817.64,"endTime":821.76,"body":"the authority and the prestige I want. You know,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":821.76,"endTime":828.0,"body":"it's like I'm really good at what I do. But you "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":821.76,"endTime":828.0,"body":"know, but everyone wants to get promoted. You  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":828.0,"endTime":832.54,"body":"want the next job, you want to climb the ladder. "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":828.0,"endTime":832.54,"body":"Is that what everybody is what I'm supposed to do?"},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":832.54,"endTime":834.44,"body":"That's what we're trained to want."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":834.44,"endTime":838.6,"body":"Yeah, yeah. And so, so we, we, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":834.44,"endTime":838.6,"body":"we seek that job. Wanting the authority,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":838.6,"endTime":842.68,"body":"wanting the pay, wanting the prestige, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":838.6,"endTime":842.68,"body":"but not really wanting the job and not  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":842.68,"endTime":849.16,"body":"being prepared for the realities of the job "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":842.68,"endTime":849.16,"body":"that you're seeking. So you so hard. Right."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":849.16,"endTime":855.68,"body":"And I want to make sure that I point "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":849.16,"endTime":855.68,"body":"out the not being prepared is not only on the  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":855.68,"endTime":861.8,"body":"employee, it's not only on the person who's "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":855.68,"endTime":861.8,"body":"going after the job. Because companies do a  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":861.8,"endTime":869.2,"body":"terrible job of preparing people for new roles of "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":861.8,"endTime":869.2,"body":"having like we do a pretty. It's pretty easy to  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":869.2,"endTime":875.04,"body":"develop internal succession programs where "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":869.2,"endTime":875.04,"body":"we have career trajectories where we help  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":875.04,"endTime":881.56,"body":"people advance through the ranks and "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":875.04,"endTime":881.56,"body":"gain more experience, promote prestige,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":881.56,"endTime":888.76,"body":"authority. But we don't train them which "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":881.56,"endTime":888.76,"body":"is mind boggling. We keep putting people  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":888.76,"endTime":899.4,"body":"into positions where we're setting them up to "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":888.76,"endTime":899.4,"body":"fail and the company is the one who ultimately  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":899.4,"endTime":905.04,"body":"yeah. Is done a disservice. I mean yes, it has a "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":899.4,"endTime":905.04,"body":"direct impact on employees lives and that should  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":905.04,"endTime":912.56,"body":"be a motivating factor. It rarely is, especially "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":905.04,"endTime":912.56,"body":"in a corporate environment. But selfishly,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":912.56,"endTime":918.64,"body":"as the company we should want to inv. Make sure "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":912.56,"endTime":918.64,"body":"that the people we're putting into authority  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":918.64,"endTime":923.92,"body":"positions have some level of training so that "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":918.64,"endTime":923.92,"body":"they don't drive all of our employees away."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":923.92,"endTime":929.12,"body":"Right. No. So I think that, I think "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":923.92,"endTime":929.12,"body":"that that's a pretty decent explanation about  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":929.12,"endTime":931.68,"body":"kind of where these toxic leaders or where these  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":931.68,"endTime":934.82,"body":"leaders that ah. Create toxic "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":931.68,"endTime":934.82,"body":"environments kind of come from."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":934.82,"endTime":937.1,"body":"But the real non exhaustive list."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":937.1,"endTime":941.76,"body":"But yeah, yeah. So let's just say these "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":937.1,"endTime":941.76,"body":"are kind of three big two or three things that  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":941.76,"endTime":946.2,"body":"we really see very often. It's not again by no "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":941.76,"endTime":946.2,"body":"means is it. You know you can get into things  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":946.2,"endTime":950.84,"body":"like nepotism and stuff like that too. But like "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":946.2,"endTime":950.84,"body":"these ones about expecting availability kind of  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":950.84,"endTime":955.0,"body":"gaming the system M and people wanting the "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":950.84,"endTime":955.0,"body":"authority, pay and prestige but not the job  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":955.0,"endTime":961.96,"body":"are probably the three that are most common. Like "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":955.0,"endTime":961.96,"body":"staggeringly most common in the work that we do."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":961.96,"endTime":962.88,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":962.88,"endTime":968.4,"body":"but that, but, but going back to the "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":962.88,"endTime":968.4,"body":"original question, are we sheltering these  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":968.4,"endTime":974.96,"body":"leaders? Is really what we are trying to get to. "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":968.4,"endTime":974.96,"body":"And there are kind of like again we got, we love  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":974.96,"endTime":981.56,"body":"threes. We kind of have three main, main ways that "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":974.96,"endTime":981.56,"body":"we're doing that. Again not an exhaustive list,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":981.56,"endTime":988.4,"body":"but again very common. Like you know why? And "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":981.56,"endTime":988.4,"body":"I think the first one that I want Us to talk  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":988.4,"endTime":993.36,"body":"about briefly is I think the. Or, sorry, is the "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":988.4,"endTime":993.36,"body":"reason it seems that many businesses, when they,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":993.36,"endTime":996.64,"body":"when they have these leaders who are creating "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":993.36,"endTime":996.64,"body":"toxic environments, who are really not prepared  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":996.64,"endTime":1003.08,"body":"for the job, who are, you know, like having these "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":996.64,"endTime":1003.08,"body":"issues that are, that we're talking about and  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1003.08,"endTime":1007.0,"body":"then we can say, well, why are they still there? "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1003.08,"endTime":1007.0,"body":"Right? Like, that's really kind of the question.  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1007.0,"endTime":1011.88,"body":"I'm sure that's a question that you listen or "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1007.0,"endTime":1011.88,"body":"wanting us to get to. Why are they still there?  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1011.88,"endTime":1019.0,"body":"And a big reason is a lot of businesses kind of "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1011.88,"endTime":1019.0,"body":"see them in that role as a sunk cost. They're  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1019.0,"endTime":1023.4,"body":"already there. It's too hard to replace them. "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1019.0,"endTime":1023.4,"body":"We've already invested this much time in them.  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1023.4,"endTime":1027.24,"body":"They've already gotten the promotion. You know, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1023.4,"endTime":1027.24,"body":"we'll see how it all works out, you know. Well,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1027.24,"endTime":1032.28,"body":"it's, you know, it's too much. It's to too much "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1027.24,"endTime":1032.28,"body":"work to kind of replace them or this or that."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1032.28,"endTime":1034.88,"body":"Or if we replace them, we "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1032.28,"endTime":1034.88,"body":"might have to put them in a different  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1034.88,"endTime":1038.84,"body":"position or we might have to offer them "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1034.88,"endTime":1038.84,"body":"severance or we might have to do X,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1038.84,"endTime":1042.12,"body":"Y or Z or it's going to be "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1038.84,"endTime":1042.12,"body":"disruptive and yeah, it's."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1042.12,"endTime":1045.56,"body":"Going to be an HR nightmare to kind "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1042.12,"endTime":1045.56,"body":"of move the person out or kind of go through  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1045.56,"endTime":1056.72,"body":"disciplinary actions and this and that. And that "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1045.56,"endTime":1056.72,"body":"is the stupidest reason, but also the most common."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1056.72,"endTime":1064.04,"body":"Yeah, yeah, it is. And I think part "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1056.72,"endTime":1064.04,"body":"of that comes from having. So you talk about,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1064.04,"endTime":1070.08,"body":"you know, having to go through hr, disciplinary "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1064.04,"endTime":1070.08,"body":"procedures. And I mentioned in kind of the intro,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1070.08,"endTime":1075.48,"body":"one of the reasons why I think this happened so "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1070.08,"endTime":1075.48,"body":"pervasively is because we are measuring people  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1075.48,"endTime":1085.56,"body":"incorrectly. Right. Our performance metrics are "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1075.48,"endTime":1085.56,"body":"for leaders rarely have, any direct, like our  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1085.56,"endTime":1092.76,"body":"result of how they treat people or how they are "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1085.56,"endTime":1092.76,"body":"building up their team. So you get the behaviors  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1092.76,"endTime":1101.68,"body":"that you incentivize. So if you're incentivizing "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1092.76,"endTime":1101.68,"body":"only, production outputs, then people are going to  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1101.68,"endTime":1107.28,"body":"focus on that metric to the exclusion of all else. "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1101.68,"endTime":1107.28,"body":"And that's kind of part of the sunk cost. And part  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1107.28,"endTime":1114.24,"body":"of that we haven't done put the proper, processes "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1107.28,"endTime":1114.24,"body":"and evaluative tools in place to make sure that  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1114.24,"endTime":1119.48,"body":"in the event we have someone who creates a toxic "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1114.24,"endTime":1119.48,"body":"environment, can we actually get rid of them? Can  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1119.48,"endTime":1125.54,"body":"we actually maybe not get rid of them, but how "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1119.48,"endTime":1125.54,"body":"do we either support them or transition them?"},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1125.54,"endTime":1130.4,"body":"Right. Yeah. And you're right. I mean, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1125.54,"endTime":1130.4,"body":"like, you know, if, again, if all that matters  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1130.4,"endTime":1134.0,"body":"and all that you're measuring are things "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1130.4,"endTime":1134.0,"body":"like reduction output and you have people  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1134.0,"endTime":1138.72,"body":"that are burning through employees, but they're "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1134.0,"endTime":1138.72,"body":"hitting that output. Then isn't everything fine?  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1139.56,"endTime":1144.64,"body":"And that's, you know, and to us, that best part "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1139.56,"endTime":1144.64,"body":"of the sun cost. Well, you know, if this is a  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1144.64,"endTime":1148.56,"body":"problem, then we still, we kind of have to uproot "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1144.64,"endTime":1148.56,"body":"our entire metric system and we're going to have  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1148.56,"endTime":1153.56,"body":"to, you know, do this and that. Well, and to "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1148.56,"endTime":1153.56,"body":"me, I'm like, that's kind of like saying, yeah,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1153.56,"endTime":1157.6,"body":"there's a giant hole in my roof and yeah, rain "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1153.56,"endTime":1157.6,"body":"and snow gets in, but you know, how much work it  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1157.6,"endTime":1163.12,"body":"is to actually fix. I got to call the roofer and "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1157.6,"endTime":1163.12,"body":"I got to do this. And then, you know, and then I."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1163.12,"endTime":1165.16,"body":"Was going to live "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1163.12,"endTime":1165.16,"body":"with the whole tarp over it."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1165.16,"endTime":1168.72,"body":"Exactly. Yeah. I'll just "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1165.16,"endTime":1168.72,"body":"live with it. No one says that.  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1169.68,"endTime":1177.12,"body":"Right. But this is. To me, that's a pretty fair "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1169.68,"endTime":1177.12,"body":"comparison about how disastrously, effectively  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1177.12,"endTime":1182.84,"body":"dangerous something is to do workplace, just like "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1177.12,"endTime":1182.84,"body":"a giant hole in your roof is to your home. But  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1182.84,"endTime":1188.36,"body":"it's the idea of we in a workplace, we want to "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1182.84,"endTime":1188.36,"body":"just cover the giant hole with a tarp and kind  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1188.36,"endTime":1192.92,"body":"of say, yeah, it's good enough because it's "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1188.36,"endTime":1192.92,"body":"not, you know, because it's not affecting.  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1192.92,"endTime":1198.76,"body":"Often those that have the power to actually, to "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1192.92,"endTime":1198.76,"body":"influence change is not affecting them enough  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1198.76,"endTime":1202.8,"body":"that they actually want to go through the. Go "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1198.76,"endTime":1202.8,"body":"through, you know, dealing with the sun cost."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1202.8,"endTime":1210.32,"body":"Yeah. And I see, I think that one really, "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1202.8,"endTime":1210.32,"body":"resonates in the corporate environment. the. What  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1210.32,"endTime":1220.04,"body":"I see very often in, kind of less corporate "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1210.32,"endTime":1220.04,"body":"structures, you know, smaller in companies  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1220.04,"endTime":1227.96,"body":"is. Tends to be people prioritizing their, "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1220.04,"endTime":1227.96,"body":"their personal relationships over professional  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1227.96,"endTime":1236.32,"body":"competence. So, you know, the. I, this happens "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1227.96,"endTime":1236.32,"body":"in corporate as well. But, you know, I,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1236.32,"endTime":1245.24,"body":"I'm buddies with the owner or it's my. I'm hiring "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1236.32,"endTime":1245.24,"body":"as the owner. I'm hiring my nephew to work in my  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1245.24,"endTime":1254.44,"body":"company. Yeah, the kid doesn't know his up from "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1245.24,"endTime":1254.44,"body":"down. I will say that's a better way of framing  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1254.44,"endTime":1261.88,"body":"it. Sure, sure. but, right. They're prioritizing "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1254.44,"endTime":1261.88,"body":"the personal connection, the personal relationship  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1261.88,"endTime":1267.6,"body":"that they have with people over the professional "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1261.88,"endTime":1267.6,"body":"competence and the actual impact that that person  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1267.6,"endTime":1272.98,"body":"is going to have in their organization on the "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1267.6,"endTime":1272.98,"body":"profitability and stability of their company."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1272.98,"endTime":1277.44,"body":"Yeah, I mean, like, we see this all the "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1272.98,"endTime":1277.44,"body":"time and in businesses, you know, where it's like,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1277.44,"endTime":1282.4,"body":"you know, well, the managers are all the drinking "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1277.44,"endTime":1282.4,"body":"buddies of the owner. And this, you know, I mean,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1282.4,"endTime":1288.08,"body":"and this is really, really just what it is. Or, or "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1282.4,"endTime":1288.08,"body":"if it is, you know, hiring family or there's all  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1288.08,"endTime":1295.44,"body":"kinds of other stuff where it's the idea of the "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1288.08,"endTime":1295.44,"body":"priority is the, the relationship, not what's best  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1295.44,"endTime":1299.72,"body":"for the business. It's what's best for like the "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1295.44,"endTime":1299.72,"body":"individuals involved, the people, the individuals  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1299.72,"endTime":1306.24,"body":"in power, not for the. What's best for the "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1299.72,"endTime":1306.24,"body":"company itself. And that's just the reality of it."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1306.24,"endTime":1310.44,"body":"I mean we've talked about "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1306.24,"endTime":1310.44,"body":"nepotism in the past and my personal  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1310.44,"endTime":1318.76,"body":"view is that it's not inherently "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1310.44,"endTime":1318.76,"body":"bad. It's m. Often used terribly. But  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1318.76,"endTime":1323.76,"body":"in and of itself it's not inherently "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1318.76,"endTime":1323.76,"body":"a bad thing. Right. I mean if I'm,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1323.76,"endTime":1329.8,"body":"I'm a. We are business owners. I understand the, "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1323.76,"endTime":1329.8,"body":"the business owner perspective. If I have a family  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1329.8,"endTime":1337.32,"body":"member who I think would be who I to bring into "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1329.8,"endTime":1337.32,"body":"my organization, I have free reign to do so."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1337.32,"endTime":1339.16,"body":"Right, right."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1339.16,"endTime":1343.36,"body":"But that also, needs to "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1339.16,"endTime":1343.36,"body":"be coupled with a responsibility  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1343.36,"endTime":1348.96,"body":"to making sure that they are properly "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1343.36,"endTime":1348.96,"body":"trained and equipped to do the job,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1348.96,"endTime":1356.26,"body":"to support my staff and to "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1348.96,"endTime":1356.26,"body":"not muck up my organization."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1356.26,"endTime":1361.72,"body":"Yeah, you're right. And I "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1356.26,"endTime":1361.72,"body":"mean it is important to kind of again,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1361.72,"endTime":1367.72,"body":"I guess really ask yourself a hard question. If "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1361.72,"endTime":1367.72,"body":"you're in that position of authority, why is this  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1367.72,"endTime":1372.92,"body":"person being promoted? You know, and, and again, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1367.72,"endTime":1372.92,"body":"and if you're, you know, if you can, if you can,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1372.92,"endTime":1377.32,"body":"you know, be very kind of direct with yourself "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1372.92,"endTime":1377.32,"body":"and they go, it's only because they're family,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1377.32,"endTime":1382.56,"body":"only because of my friends or because I like "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1377.32,"endTime":1382.56,"body":"them more, then that's up. to. It's your call.  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1382.56,"endTime":1387.06,"body":"But just know that there are unintended "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1382.56,"endTime":1387.06,"body":"consequences that come with that call."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1387.06,"endTime":1397.32,"body":"Yeah. And it goes beyond even if they "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1387.06,"endTime":1397.32,"body":"are well positioned for that role or not. I mean  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1397.32,"endTime":1401.52,"body":"we've talked. We, we don't need to get into "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1397.32,"endTime":1401.52,"body":"all rehashing all of the same discussions,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1401.52,"endTime":1407.74,"body":"but there's huge perception problems "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1401.52,"endTime":1407.74,"body":"that can come with nepotism. and."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1407.74,"endTime":1411.8,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so if this idea of "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1407.74,"endTime":1411.8,"body":"the nepism piece is interesting, we did an episode  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1411.8,"endTime":1415.92,"body":"at the end of last of end of season two where "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1411.8,"endTime":1415.92,"body":"we talked a bit more about that. I checked that  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1415.92,"endTime":1423.8,"body":"out if that's of interest. So yeah, so probably, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1415.92,"endTime":1423.8,"body":"probably the third, the third reason why we tend  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1423.8,"endTime":1429.92,"body":"to shelter, these toxic leaders or leaders that "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1423.8,"endTime":1429.92,"body":"create, you know, toxic environments is kind of  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1429.92,"endTime":1436.48,"body":"that we don't necessarily know what's happening "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1429.92,"endTime":1436.48,"body":"in the workplace. If we are in a position of like,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1436.48,"endTime":1442.12,"body":"you know, if we are a leadership team or if we "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1436.48,"endTime":1442.12,"body":"are a board or if we are a council. You know,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1442.12,"endTime":1447.16,"body":"we don't really know, what's going on. We're "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1442.12,"endTime":1447.16,"body":"hearing everything, sunshine and roses from,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1447.16,"endTime":1451.44,"body":"from the people that were talking. They're talking "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1447.16,"endTime":1451.44,"body":"to us. And if the people that are talking to us,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1451.44,"endTime":1454.96,"body":"who are directly responsible for "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1451.44,"endTime":1454.96,"body":"talking to us are the problem,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1454.96,"endTime":1461.86,"body":"we may not realize that everything is not sunshine "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1454.96,"endTime":1461.86,"body":"and roses, you know, to everybody else but them."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1461.86,"endTime":1468.48,"body":"Yeah, it. And that's a, that's a big "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1461.86,"endTime":1468.48,"body":"one. trying to. I don't know who the quote  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1468.48,"endTime":1474.32,"body":"is originally attributed to, but I always heard "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1468.48,"endTime":1474.32,"body":"it as you know, whoever controls the media,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1474.32,"endTime":1480.4,"body":"controls the mind. This idea that if "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1474.32,"endTime":1480.4,"body":"someone's in control of the lines of  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1480.4,"endTime":1485.7,"body":"communication, they have full control "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1480.4,"endTime":1485.7,"body":"over the narrative that people hear."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1485.7,"endTime":1486.36,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1486.36,"endTime":1489.68,"body":"So if you are, if you're a board,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1489.68,"endTime":1497.76,"body":"and you have a CEO who is toxic or "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1489.68,"endTime":1497.76,"body":"creates a toxic environment, I should say."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1497.76,"endTime":1498.64,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1498.64,"endTime":1505.24,"body":"and the only channel of communication you "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1498.64,"endTime":1505.24,"body":"have is that person. You're probably not going to  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1505.24,"endTime":1511.4,"body":"be given the. They're probably not going to self "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1505.24,"endTime":1511.4,"body":"report that they are creating a toxic environment."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1511.4,"endTime":1517.0,"body":"Yeah, no, that, that reminds me of an "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1511.4,"endTime":1517.0,"body":"organization that we, we work with in the past  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1517.0,"endTime":1523.6,"body":"that after we had after we kind of stopped working "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1517.0,"endTime":1523.6,"body":"with them, a new, like a new CEO had kind of taken  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1523.6,"endTime":1529.56,"body":"over or new executive director or whatever. And "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1523.6,"endTime":1529.56,"body":"m. One thing that I remember talking to some of  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1529.56,"endTime":1533.8,"body":"the staff from there kind of like, you know, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1529.56,"endTime":1533.8,"body":"like you know, a year and a half later about  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1533.8,"endTime":1538.6,"body":"how different everything was because, because "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1533.8,"endTime":1538.6,"body":"when we were there, the, the person in charge  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1538.6,"endTime":1546.64,"body":"was a super like employee focused. We are in this "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1538.6,"endTime":1546.64,"body":"together. My success is based on your success. So  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1546.64,"endTime":1554.36,"body":"let's make you successful to a. As the, as the "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1546.64,"endTime":1554.36,"body":"staff had told me again, a year and a half later  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1554.36,"endTime":1562.8,"body":"I started working with them and this new person "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1554.36,"endTime":1562.8,"body":"came in, a micromanager. A person that was really  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1562.8,"endTime":1570.4,"body":"self possessed and you know, and really just what "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1562.8,"endTime":1570.4,"body":"it was really had the exact opposite approach. And  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1570.4,"endTime":1577.6,"body":"what they had done was they had consolidated all "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1570.4,"endTime":1577.6,"body":"communication channels to you know, where like,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1577.6,"endTime":1583.8,"body":"you know the, where the step so staff could no "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1577.6,"endTime":1583.8,"body":"longer speak to their board or whomever. And where  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1583.8,"endTime":1587.52,"body":"it used to be, there was a lot of communication "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1583.8,"endTime":1587.52,"body":"but that was shut right down. The only voice  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1587.52,"endTime":1596.36,"body":"they ever, the board ever heard was that of the "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1587.52,"endTime":1596.36,"body":"executive director. And it was, you know, like  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1596.36,"endTime":1602.96,"body":"everything is great. My staff are behind me 100% "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1596.36,"endTime":1602.96,"body":"and the board didn't know any different. Now I,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1602.96,"endTime":1607.12,"body":"if I was on the board would question why am I only "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1602.96,"endTime":1607.12,"body":"hearing this from one person. I would, you know,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1607.12,"endTime":1611.2,"body":"I'd want to, I'd have some questions if this was, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1607.12,"endTime":1611.2,"body":"this was happening, if it was me. But you know,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1611.2,"endTime":1617.32,"body":"whatever. But the idea was, but in reality was "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1611.2,"endTime":1617.32,"body":"they were dealing with massive turnover. They  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1617.32,"endTime":1621.52,"body":"were dealing with like, you know, just, just "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1617.32,"endTime":1621.52,"body":"incredibly toxic environments. Like, you know,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1621.52,"endTime":1625.88,"body":"longtime employees were putting in retirement "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1621.52,"endTime":1625.88,"body":"early. Like there's all these huge warning  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1625.88,"endTime":1631.32,"body":"signs. But you're right, the executive "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1625.88,"endTime":1631.32,"body":"director, they controlled the narrative."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1631.32,"endTime":1635.8,"body":"Yeah. So the board, the, "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1631.32,"endTime":1635.8,"body":"the board didn't investigate. They  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1635.8,"endTime":1641.12,"body":"didn't see the warning signs for what they "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1635.8,"endTime":1641.12,"body":"were. They had a CEO or executive director  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1641.12,"endTime":1646.72,"body":"who was telling them what they wanted "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1641.12,"endTime":1646.72,"body":"to hear, that everything is fine. Oh,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1646.72,"endTime":1651.08,"body":"this is just normal. Yeah. They, this person's "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1646.72,"endTime":1651.08,"body":"leaving because they have another opportunity. Oh,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1651.08,"endTime":1655.8,"body":"this, this long time employee is leaving because "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1651.08,"endTime":1655.8,"body":"they want to spend more time with their family  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1655.8,"endTime":1662.8,"body":"or like. Right. There is always a reason. "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1655.8,"endTime":1662.8,"body":"Yeah, but there was never any verification."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1662.8,"endTime":1667.08,"body":"Yeah, but, but you're right because you "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1662.8,"endTime":1667.08,"body":"know, we say, we're saying, you know, who controls  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1667.08,"endTime":1673.0,"body":"the line of communication really essentially "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1667.08,"endTime":1673.0,"body":"controls a narrative. They had the only direct  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1673.0,"endTime":1679.76,"body":"line to the board, so they get to tell their story "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1673.0,"endTime":1679.76,"body":"and that was the only story they heard. And again,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1679.76,"endTime":1685.44,"body":"the board didn't ask many questions to me, you "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1679.76,"endTime":1685.44,"body":"know, that, you know, whatever. But that is  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1685.44,"endTime":1690.64,"body":"exactly what tends to happen. And we see this "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1685.44,"endTime":1690.64,"body":"when, you know, when there is that, you know,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1690.64,"endTime":1697.32,"body":"you know, CEO, executive director, you know, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1690.64,"endTime":1697.32,"body":"managing partner or you know, or city manager,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1697.32,"endTime":1704.84,"body":"whatever. Right. That is a real risk if you're "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1697.32,"endTime":1704.84,"body":"only ever hearing the story of one person. And  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1704.84,"endTime":1712.36,"body":"because, and then it's the idea of that is how "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1704.84,"endTime":1712.36,"body":"a lot of the lack of investigation, the lack of  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1712.36,"endTime":1718.74,"body":"verification, everything is going fine is one way "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1712.36,"endTime":1718.74,"body":"that these toxic leaders end up being sheltered."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1718.74,"endTime":1724.04,"body":"Yeah. And I mean in fairness "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1718.74,"endTime":1724.04,"body":"to boards that are in that situation,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1726.16,"endTime":1733.32,"body":"if somebody is controlling the narrative in "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1726.16,"endTime":1733.32,"body":"that way, they're also probably ruling by  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1733.32,"endTime":1738.32,"body":"fear. Right. They're the, their employees "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1733.32,"endTime":1738.32,"body":"would not have the psychological safety  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1738.32,"endTime":1744.56,"body":"to feel like they could actually express "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1738.32,"endTime":1744.56,"body":"those concerns to if they were asked by a  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1744.56,"endTime":1749.8,"body":"board member. Right. Because chain of "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1744.56,"endTime":1749.8,"body":"command, line of communication, very,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1749.8,"endTime":1758.56,"body":"important things to put in place. But anonymous "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1749.8,"endTime":1758.56,"body":"surveys are a great way to bypass some of that."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1758.56,"endTime":1763.92,"body":"Yeah. And that's why we even created "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1758.56,"endTime":1763.92,"body":"our employee experience inspection tool,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1763.92,"endTime":1768.04,"body":"which is just a really simple quick engagement "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1763.92,"endTime":1768.04,"body":"where we can do a very short investigation,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1768.68,"endTime":1772.96,"body":"usually within a couple weeks. It's not overly "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1768.68,"endTime":1772.96,"body":"expensive to just kind of do a bit of a litmus  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1772.96,"endTime":1781.04,"body":"test on, on how are things validating if things "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1772.96,"endTime":1781.04,"body":"are the way they say they are and everything  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1781.04,"endTime":1786.64,"body":"else like that. And so when, you know, when some "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1781.04,"endTime":1786.64,"body":"leaders or boards are like, you know, because this  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1786.64,"endTime":1790.56,"body":"can even happen with like store managers. So in "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1786.64,"endTime":1790.56,"body":"corporate environments where a store Manager has  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1790.56,"endTime":1795.2,"body":"that the only direct line and they say everything "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1790.56,"endTime":1795.2,"body":"is fine but they're not hearing any other kind of  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1795.2,"endTime":1799.92,"body":"validating information about that. Little things "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1795.2,"endTime":1799.92,"body":"like the kind of like quick inspections or quick  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1799.92,"endTime":1804.28,"body":"assessments or quick like you said, surveys "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1799.92,"endTime":1804.28,"body":"that are anonymous and protected and well,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1804.28,"endTime":1810.2,"body":"you know design with strategy can be that quick. "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1804.28,"endTime":1810.2,"body":"Just you know, that quick health check are things.  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1810.2,"endTime":1814.24,"body":"Can we validate that? You know for the leader "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1810.2,"endTime":1814.24,"body":"we want to validate that everything is as good  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1814.24,"endTime":1818.08,"body":"as they say that they are. And so, so we're just "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1814.24,"endTime":1818.08,"body":"going to check on that. Those can be things that  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1818.08,"endTime":1822.84,"body":"you can do that are not overly time intensive "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1818.08,"endTime":1822.84,"body":"or expensive that can make a huge difference and  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1822.84,"endTime":1828.4,"body":"uncover you know, some of these infrastructural "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1822.84,"endTime":1828.4,"body":"pieces that might protect these kind of leaders."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1828.4,"endTime":1834.52,"body":"Yeah, I feel like we've "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1828.4,"endTime":1834.52,"body":"been really hard on leaders so far  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1834.52,"endTime":1837.5,"body":"and I mean it's kind of by the "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1834.52,"endTime":1837.5,"body":"nature of the question itself."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1837.5,"endTime":1837.92,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1837.92,"endTime":1844.22,"body":"But I do want to get back to the idea "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1837.92,"endTime":1844.22,"body":"that oftentimes it's well intentioned people."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1844.22,"endTime":1845.48,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1845.48,"endTime":1847.48,"body":"Creating toxic environments."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1847.48,"endTime":1848.24,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1848.24,"endTime":1854.2,"body":"And there's a few scenario, there's "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1848.24,"endTime":1854.2,"body":"a few situations that kind of spring to mind  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1854.2,"endTime":1864.64,"body":"when we talk about this. one in particular "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1854.2,"endTime":1864.64,"body":"stands out. A small business owner who. Very  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1864.64,"endTime":1873.44,"body":"kind person in conversations, personable, does "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1864.64,"endTime":1873.44,"body":"a great job of at least talking about how they  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1873.44,"endTime":1880.4,"body":"really want to support their staff. Very "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1873.44,"endTime":1880.4,"body":"values driven, in their communications but  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1880.4,"endTime":1886.56,"body":"very authoritarian in their management style. "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1880.4,"endTime":1886.56,"body":"Which is kind of an interesting beast to wrap  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1886.56,"endTime":1894.16,"body":"your head around. and it's not that this "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1886.56,"endTime":1894.16,"body":"person like they're not this cartoon ogre,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1894.16,"endTime":1902.88,"body":"where just like always angry and yelling and "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1894.16,"endTime":1902.88,"body":"you know, being ridiculously over the top. I  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1902.88,"endTime":1910.76,"body":"think a lot of it really stems from a lack of "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1902.88,"endTime":1910.76,"body":"self awareness and emotional intelligence and  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1910.76,"endTime":1917.84,"body":"a projection on others the fears that they "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1910.76,"endTime":1917.84,"body":"have about themselves. but what it's done is  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1918.48,"endTime":1925.16,"body":"it's created this environment where they just, "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1918.48,"endTime":1925.16,"body":"they squeeze the life out of people because  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1925.16,"endTime":1931.8,"body":"they're so restrictive because they. I see it "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1925.16,"endTime":1931.8,"body":"as a lack of confidence in themselves and in  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1931.8,"endTime":1939.12,"body":"their position. because knowing this situation "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1931.8,"endTime":1939.12,"body":"they did not work their way through the company  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1939.12,"endTime":1946.24,"body":"and actually didn't have any prior experience "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1939.12,"endTime":1946.24,"body":"in the industry. They married into the family  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1946.24,"endTime":1955.66,"body":"and took over the, the family business. "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1946.24,"endTime":1955.66,"body":"so I think there's a lot of self doubt."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1955.66,"endTime":1956.52,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1956.52,"endTime":1957.94,"body":"With this individual."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1957.94,"endTime":1958.66,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1958.66,"endTime":1964.56,"body":"But well intentioned. But it's "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1958.66,"endTime":1964.56,"body":"what the, the intention is unfortunately  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1964.56,"endTime":1969.92,"body":"secondary to the effect that it's having "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1964.56,"endTime":1969.92,"body":"on people because it's still creating this  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1969.92,"endTime":1975.0,"body":"very toxic environment that's driving the "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1969.92,"endTime":1975.0,"body":"top performers out of the organization."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1975.0,"endTime":1976.28,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1976.28,"endTime":1977.84,"body":"Squeezing people."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1977.84,"endTime":1982.52,"body":"Yeah, well and like, I mean like "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1977.84,"endTime":1982.52,"body":"this is a great example of like one of the  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1982.52,"endTime":1987.08,"body":"three deaths of leadership of the modern leader "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1982.52,"endTime":1987.08,"body":"that we talk about which is you know our three  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1987.08,"endTime":1993.64,"body":"deaths are self sabotage, self preservation "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1987.08,"endTime":1993.64,"body":"and my micromanagement. Because the idea is  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1993.64,"endTime":2000.92,"body":"again when you are unconfident in your ability "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1993.64,"endTime":2000.92,"body":"to lead or how you got the job, if confidence  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2000.92,"endTime":2007.76,"body":"is a problematic issue for you, that's one "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2000.92,"endTime":2007.76,"body":"of the biggest causes of a lot of this toxic  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2008.36,"endTime":2016.44,"body":"behavior. And I mean in this story is this "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2008.36,"endTime":2016.44,"body":"leader really was a great poster child for  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2016.44,"endTime":2022.88,"body":"the self sabotage was you know, this this idea of "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2016.44,"endTime":2022.88,"body":"projecting you know, insecurities onto others on,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2022.88,"endTime":2025.72,"body":"on using kind of the harsh grip from "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2022.88,"endTime":2025.72,"body":"our project principle of squeezing the  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2025.72,"endTime":2031.0,"body":"life out of people and creating this, this very "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2025.72,"endTime":2031.0,"body":"adversarial relationship with employees while all  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2031.0,"endTime":2039.24,"body":"the time trying to do the right thing. But just "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2031.0,"endTime":2039.24,"body":"every time they almost like go to act it's the,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2039.24,"endTime":2044.92,"body":"they end up sabotaging themselves because it's "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2039.24,"endTime":2044.92,"body":"just you know, the idea of like you know I,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2044.92,"endTime":2052.16,"body":"I can't, I can't show vulnerability. I can't, you "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2044.92,"endTime":2052.16,"body":"know, I can't you know, make be let someone else  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2052.16,"endTime":2058.24,"body":"kind of help me. I have to kind of do all this "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2052.16,"endTime":2058.24,"body":"kind of myself or you know, and I have to show  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2058.24,"endTime":2064.08,"body":"my family or whatever that I can do this. But they "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2058.24,"endTime":2064.08,"body":"end up just you know, sabotaging their stuff all  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2064.08,"endTime":2071.84,"body":"along the way. And again it's not that this person "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2064.08,"endTime":2071.84,"body":"set up to be malicious, it's just the kind of the,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2071.84,"endTime":2077.18,"body":"their origin story just created this self "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2071.84,"endTime":2077.18,"body":"sabotage approach which just turns into toxicity."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2077.18,"endTime":2086.04,"body":"And yeah you. Adversarial is an "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2077.18,"endTime":2086.04,"body":"excellent term in this situation because  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2086.04,"endTime":2091.84,"body":"we also talk frequently about consistent "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2086.04,"endTime":2091.84,"body":"consistency and how important consistency  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2091.84,"endTime":2097.76,"body":"is consistency in your behavior, in your "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2091.84,"endTime":2097.76,"body":"communications, the way that you treat  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2097.76,"endTime":2106.76,"body":"people. Because this situation had eroded any "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2097.76,"endTime":2106.76,"body":"form of trust in the organization because the,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2106.76,"endTime":2113.68,"body":"the person, they are very compassionate. "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2106.76,"endTime":2113.68,"body":"They want, and they would talk about all  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2113.68,"endTime":2119.68,"body":"the things that they wanted to do to build up "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2113.68,"endTime":2119.68,"body":"their team and support people and you know how  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2119.68,"endTime":2125.12,"body":"important this is a core value of theirs "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2119.68,"endTime":2125.12,"body":"and the companies. And then their actions  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2125.12,"endTime":2132.16,"body":"ran completely contrary to that. And it's the, "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2125.12,"endTime":2132.16,"body":"that adversarial approach that the inconsistency  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2132.16,"endTime":2138.54,"body":"between word and deed that created and really "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2132.16,"endTime":2138.54,"body":"started to fester with a toxic environment."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2138.54,"endTime":2145.28,"body":"Yeah. And that story also kind of makes "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2138.54,"endTime":2145.28,"body":"me think about another business that we work with  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2145.28,"endTime":2155.88,"body":"where there was kind of a, ah, there was a like "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2145.28,"endTime":2155.88,"body":"a municipality and they had brought in a new cao,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2155.88,"endTime":2163.08,"body":"or city manager. And they had a More like, you "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2155.88,"endTime":2163.08,"body":"know, their leadership style was pretty, it was,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2163.08,"endTime":2168.24,"body":"was a, I would call it like an avoidance style. "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2163.08,"endTime":2168.24,"body":"And they really embodied the kind of the second  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2168.24,"endTime":2173.64,"body":"death of the modern leader, which is self "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2168.24,"endTime":2173.64,"body":"preservation. They, you know, were not, they,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2173.64,"endTime":2180.56,"body":"they really did not like handling conflict "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2173.64,"endTime":2180.56,"body":"or addressing issues head on. And you know,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2180.56,"endTime":2187.84,"body":"it was something that we kind of came into, kind "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2180.56,"endTime":2187.84,"body":"of once things started to kind of go wrong and to  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2187.84,"endTime":2192.08,"body":"kind of help, you know, try and undo some of the "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2187.84,"endTime":2192.08,"body":"problems that this created. But it seemed like,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2192.08,"endTime":2197.04,"body":"there's a lot of lack of confidence in, in their, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2192.08,"endTime":2197.04,"body":"in the work that they did. So they did a lot of  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2197.04,"endTime":2203.96,"body":"placating. They would reinsure employees to their "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2197.04,"endTime":2203.96,"body":"face, but they would ignore the issues that,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2203.96,"endTime":2209.76,"body":"that would like, you know, that required "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2203.96,"endTime":2209.76,"body":"uncomfortable conversations. And one thing  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2209.76,"endTime":2215.16,"body":"that was kind of mind boggling when you kind of "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2209.76,"endTime":2215.16,"body":"saw the whole picture after the fact was what  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2215.16,"endTime":2222.64,"body":"they did was when problems, organization problems "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2215.16,"endTime":2222.64,"body":"were coming up, they would just remove authority  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2222.64,"endTime":2228.04,"body":"from the directors and from the managers "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2222.64,"endTime":2228.04,"body":"of these areas. So it's almost like if they  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2228.04,"endTime":2233.08,"body":"weren't responsible for these things that were "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2228.04,"endTime":2233.08,"body":"having problems, then there's no one to report  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2233.08,"endTime":2239.76,"body":"the problems. Then the problems didn't exist. "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2233.08,"endTime":2239.76,"body":"Yeah, right. And it was again like, and again  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2239.76,"endTime":2244.52,"body":"this wasn't an intentional thing. It was just "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2239.76,"endTime":2244.52,"body":"kind of them reacting and trying to, you know,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2244.52,"endTime":2248.36,"body":"preserve their position. They, you know, that "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2244.52,"endTime":2248.36,"body":"they, I, you know, really it seemed like they  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2248.36,"endTime":2253.6,"body":"weren't confident in their ability to do it. And "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2248.36,"endTime":2253.6,"body":"I think they also kind of did a bit more of that  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2253.6,"endTime":2256.4,"body":"kind of like, you know, the, they control "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2253.6,"endTime":2256.4,"body":"the communication lines and controlled the  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2256.4,"endTime":2263.2,"body":"narrative. So the stuff wasn't as clear to their "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2256.4,"endTime":2263.2,"body":"city council. But yeah, I remember just like,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2263.2,"endTime":2268.48,"body":"like just this just perfect example of how self "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2263.2,"endTime":2268.48,"body":"preservation can just destroy an organization  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2268.48,"endTime":2274.36,"body":"with somebody who was a pleasant person. They "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2268.48,"endTime":2274.36,"body":"weren't two faced. It was just they were drowning  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2274.36,"endTime":2279.64,"body":"constantly and grabbing whatever they could. But "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2274.36,"endTime":2279.64,"body":"it was just they're holding on too tight to stuff  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2279.64,"endTime":2284.5,"body":"and they were just trying to preserve themselves "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2279.64,"endTime":2284.5,"body":"day to day and had no ability to think long term."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2284.5,"endTime":2290.04,"body":"They were focused on the preservation "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2284.5,"endTime":2290.04,"body":"of their career and their reputation. And the  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2290.04,"endTime":2299.24,"body":"sad reality is, yes, they are a nice person. They "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2290.04,"endTime":2299.24,"body":"are also wholly unequipped for the position that  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2299.24,"endTime":2307.76,"body":"they were in. Yeah. And that not being skilled "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2299.24,"endTime":2307.76,"body":"and equipped to do the job and focusing on  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2307.76,"endTime":2315.14,"body":"solely on how is everything going to reflect on "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2307.76,"endTime":2315.14,"body":"me as the leader is just a recipe for disaster."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2315.14,"endTime":2319.44,"body":"Yeah. And to me their story really "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2315.14,"endTime":2319.44,"body":"is just that they wanted the authority,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2319.44,"endTime":2323.12,"body":"pay and prestige of that position, but "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2319.44,"endTime":2323.12,"body":"they didn't Actually want the job itself."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2323.12,"endTime":2327.08,"body":"Yeah. How they got "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2323.12,"endTime":2327.08,"body":"the job, I still don't know,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2327.08,"endTime":2329.8,"body":"but that's an entirely different conversation."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2329.8,"endTime":2330.76,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2330.76,"endTime":2336.68,"body":"There's one more style that I "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2330.76,"endTime":2336.68,"body":"unfortunately have seen, and that's kind  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2336.68,"endTime":2346.44,"body":"of more of a passive aggressive, toxic leadership "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2336.68,"endTime":2346.44,"body":"style and where they really put a lot of guilt and  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2346.44,"endTime":2355.96,"body":"pity on attacks on people, for not meeting their "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2346.44,"endTime":2355.96,"body":"rigid expectations. It's. I think it's better said  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2355.96,"endTime":2365.48,"body":"as they were an incredible micromanager where "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2355.96,"endTime":2365.48,"body":"every. Everything had to, really they were  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2365.48,"endTime":2371.16,"body":"over your shoulder making sure that things were "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2365.48,"endTime":2371.16,"body":"done their way. The outcome, successful outcome  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2371.16,"endTime":2378.88,"body":"wasn't the important factor. It was. Did you do "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2371.16,"endTime":2378.88,"body":"it the way that I told you to? Right. it's the.  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2378.88,"endTime":2385.12,"body":"This is dumb example, but it's the difference "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2378.88,"endTime":2385.12,"body":"between, in math. Right. can you get to the  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2385.12,"endTime":2391.8,"body":"answer properly? versus can you follow the 18 "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2385.12,"endTime":2391.8,"body":"different steps that I set out? That's probably  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2391.8,"endTime":2397.32,"body":"a bad example because math, you actually do need "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2391.8,"endTime":2397.32,"body":"to follow the property, way of doing things."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2397.32,"endTime":2400.76,"body":"No one go to James for math "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2397.32,"endTime":2400.76,"body":"tutoring. Just, he's steering it wrong."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2400.76,"endTime":2408.56,"body":"I am not a mathematician. I love stats, "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2400.76,"endTime":2408.56,"body":"which is hilarious in and of itself. but, okay,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2408.56,"endTime":2411.8,"body":"terrible example. Scratch that. "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2408.56,"endTime":2411.8,"body":"Pretend that I said something  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2411.8,"endTime":2420.72,"body":"articulate and funny and let. But really "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2411.8,"endTime":2420.72,"body":"it was a case of someone who, again,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2420.72,"endTime":2429.52,"body":"not a terrible person. I thought they were an "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2420.72,"endTime":2429.52,"body":"absolute terrible manager. I've said many times  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2429.52,"endTime":2437.8,"body":"before that I have a very visceral reaction to "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2429.52,"endTime":2437.8,"body":"micromanagement. It's one of the things that will  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2437.8,"endTime":2444.24,"body":"kill any type of, leadership or management "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2437.8,"endTime":2444.24,"body":"relationship for me. Right. Immediately."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2444.24,"endTime":2445.56,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2445.56,"endTime":2454.12,"body":"But this created such a, Such, "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2445.56,"endTime":2454.12,"body":"a toxic environment that the staff didn't  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2454.12,"endTime":2459.36,"body":"even feel like they were able to talk to each "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2454.12,"endTime":2459.36,"body":"other. Right. The micromanagement was not only  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2459.36,"endTime":2464.24,"body":"in the process of how things are supposed to be "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2459.36,"endTime":2464.24,"body":"done and looking over your shoulder in the work,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2464.24,"endTime":2470.84,"body":"but micromanaged the communications between "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2464.24,"endTime":2470.84,"body":"teams. So everybody ended up being siloed,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2470.84,"endTime":2474.88,"body":"which is not a healthy way to operate either."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2474.88,"endTime":2480.96,"body":"Yeah, yeah. And I mean, like, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2474.88,"endTime":2480.96,"body":"again, micromanagement is such a, Again,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2480.96,"endTime":2486.12,"body":"it's such a dangerous thing. And it's the third of "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2480.96,"endTime":2486.12,"body":"the three deaths of the modern leader. And again,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2486.12,"endTime":2490.88,"body":"all of these kind of deaths of the modern leader "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2486.12,"endTime":2490.88,"body":"kind of come from this lack of confidence. And  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2490.88,"endTime":2495.08,"body":"you know, not to say that the only kind "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2490.88,"endTime":2495.08,"body":"of toxic leaders are confident leaders,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2495.08,"endTime":2501.4,"body":"but there's a strong correlation between "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2495.08,"endTime":2501.4,"body":"low confidence in leadership and creating a  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2501.4,"endTime":2506.44,"body":"toxic environment. But I think to be a little bit "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2501.4,"endTime":2506.44,"body":"helpful to people to kind of say, okay, so here's  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2506.44,"endTime":2512.36,"body":"all this bad stuff. What can you do about It And "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2506.44,"endTime":2512.36,"body":"I think that again, to kind of talking to kind  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2512.36,"endTime":2519.8,"body":"of businesses in general, there's a relatively "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2512.36,"endTime":2519.8,"body":"simple fix to all of this. It's at least simple  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2519.8,"endTime":2527.36,"body":"in concept. And honestly it's trainer managers, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2519.8,"endTime":2527.36,"body":"like all managers in your organization leaders,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2527.36,"endTime":2532.92,"body":"managers should routinely and as part of their "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2527.36,"endTime":2532.92,"body":"role be involved in continuous improvement. We  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2532.92,"endTime":2536.92,"body":"should be constantly investing in the "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2532.92,"endTime":2536.92,"body":"people that have the most authority,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2536.92,"endTime":2541.72,"body":"that have the most impact on a company to "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2536.92,"endTime":2541.72,"body":"make sure that they do have the emotional  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2541.72,"endTime":2547.6,"body":"intelligence to kind of deal with people that they "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2541.72,"endTime":2547.6,"body":"do have, you know, coaches to help them through  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2547.6,"endTime":2551.52,"body":"some problematic areas so they don't have to "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2547.6,"endTime":2551.52,"body":"feel they have to go with this alone. We have to,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2551.52,"endTime":2558.24,"body":"you know, allow normalize things like, you know, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2551.52,"endTime":2558.24,"body":"vulnerability and stuff like that. Give people  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2558.24,"endTime":2564.92,"body":"the confidence to handle the unfamiliar and to "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2558.24,"endTime":2564.92,"body":"handle the pressures that come with their job.  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2564.92,"endTime":2569.56,"body":"And to be honest, if that is probably one of "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2564.92,"endTime":2569.56,"body":"the biggest things that we could do, but is the  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2569.56,"endTime":2575.24,"body":"thing that almost never happens, largely because "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2569.56,"endTime":2575.24,"body":"the people that have the authority to make that  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2575.24,"endTime":2580.12,"body":"happen are usually the ones that are creating "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2575.24,"endTime":2580.12,"body":"the toxic environment and they don't want help."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2580.12,"endTime":2586.16,"body":"Yeah, that's true. And so I, I agree with "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2580.12,"endTime":2586.16,"body":"you 100. We need to train people better. We need  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2586.16,"endTime":2590.04,"body":"to support them, we need to give them the skills "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2586.16,"endTime":2590.04,"body":"to be successful in the roles that ah, we are  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2590.04,"endTime":2598.2,"body":"putting them in. But we also have a responsibility "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2590.04,"endTime":2598.2,"body":"to incentivize the right type of behaviors. So  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2598.2,"endTime":2603.36,"body":"if we are going to provide people with new "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2598.2,"endTime":2603.36,"body":"training, new ways of doing things, better  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2603.36,"endTime":2611.12,"body":"skills to manage their teams, then we also need to "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2603.36,"endTime":2611.12,"body":"put evaluative tools in place to make sure that we  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2611.12,"endTime":2618.48,"body":"are reinforcing that. Because again, we. What is "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2611.12,"endTime":2618.48,"body":"being measured is what matters. And if you're only  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2618.48,"endTime":2626.76,"body":"measuring somebody's performance based on the "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2618.48,"endTime":2626.76,"body":"whatever production outcome is appropriate for  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2626.76,"endTime":2633.6,"body":"your business, and there's no metrics around how "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2626.76,"endTime":2633.6,"body":"people are treated, how they are supported, how  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2633.6,"endTime":2642.44,"body":"they are developed. If there's no, incentive for "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2633.6,"endTime":2642.44,"body":"a toxic leader to change because their evaluation  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2642.44,"endTime":2648.22,"body":"tools are being changed, we're not going training "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2642.44,"endTime":2648.22,"body":"alone, I don't think is going to be enough."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2648.22,"endTime":2652.92,"body":"No, you're right, we do. If we're "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2648.22,"endTime":2652.92,"body":"not measuring the employee experience,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2652.92,"endTime":2660.76,"body":"then we're not doing. Then we're not putting any "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2652.92,"endTime":2660.76,"body":"kind of emphasis on employees and on what it's  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2660.76,"endTime":2664.96,"body":"like to work there. And you're right. Just "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2660.76,"endTime":2664.96,"body":"training people without any kind of way to  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2664.96,"endTime":2671.52,"body":"measure progress. Success is not money well "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2664.96,"endTime":2671.52,"body":"spent. No, that's really good point. Okay,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2671.52,"endTime":2673.96,"body":"I think this has been a pretty good "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2671.52,"endTime":2673.96,"body":"conversation. anything else you want to add?"},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2673.96,"endTime":2675.9,"body":"Except for my math "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2673.96,"endTime":2675.9,"body":"analogy, that was Done."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2675.9,"endTime":2679.38,"body":"Well, it's okay. Everybody can. "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2675.9,"endTime":2679.38,"body":"So that's, that's a great snapshot."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2679.38,"endTime":2683.48,"body":"It's a great showcase of, "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2679.38,"endTime":2683.48,"body":"you're allowed to make mistakes."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2683.48,"endTime":2686.0,"body":"I was going to say that's a great showcase  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2686.0,"endTime":2689.78,"body":"of the kind of random stuff you "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2686.0,"endTime":2689.78,"body":"kind of say to me off camera."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2689.78,"endTime":2693.62,"body":"Yeah, well, this is what happens "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2689.78,"endTime":2693.62,"body":"when you don't script, your responses."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2693.62,"endTime":2699.12,"body":"Right, Fair enough. All right. so, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2693.62,"endTime":2699.12,"body":"yes, let me just jump into a quick summary.  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2699.12,"endTime":2705.44,"body":"So our question was, are we sheltering toxic "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2699.12,"endTime":2705.44,"body":"leaders? And the answer is, largely, yeah,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2705.44,"endTime":2711.32,"body":"we are. And it's because we're creating these "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2705.44,"endTime":2711.32,"body":"environments where leaders, managers and leaders  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2711.32,"endTime":2719.64,"body":"kind of create toxic cultures by doing things like "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2711.32,"endTime":2719.64,"body":"expecting there are leaders to be infallible, by  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2719.64,"endTime":2723.56,"body":"promoting, people that are really not necessarily "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2719.64,"endTime":2723.56,"body":"good at the job, but they're good at gaming the  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2723.56,"endTime":2729.68,"body":"system and kind of like playing the politics to "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2723.56,"endTime":2729.68,"body":"kind of get to the job that they want. Largely,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2729.68,"endTime":2733.72,"body":"they want it because they want the authority, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2729.68,"endTime":2733.72,"body":"they want the pay, they want the prestige,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2733.72,"endTime":2737.6,"body":"but they don't really actually want the job itself "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2733.72,"endTime":2737.6,"body":"and they're not prepared for the realities of the  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2737.6,"endTime":2746.44,"body":"role. Why do we do that? Well, it seems like we "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2737.6,"endTime":2746.44,"body":"do it because we are not wanting to, accept the  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2746.44,"endTime":2749.92,"body":"fact that there are sunk costs in these people. "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2746.44,"endTime":2749.92,"body":"We've already invested in them, we've already put  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2749.92,"endTime":2756.16,"body":"them in this place. They're there now. And it's "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2749.92,"endTime":2756.16,"body":"too hard, too expensive, too long a process to  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2756.16,"endTime":2761.48,"body":"do anything about it. Or we promote people based "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2756.16,"endTime":2761.48,"body":"on personal relationships over their professional  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2761.48,"endTime":2770.44,"body":"competence. Or we kind of silo our leadership "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2761.48,"endTime":2770.44,"body":"teams in our boards and those who these leaders  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2770.44,"endTime":2777.36,"body":"are accountable to by letting those leaders be who "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2770.44,"endTime":2777.36,"body":"controls the lines of communication. They control  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2777.36,"endTime":2783.12,"body":"the narrative, they control the perception, and "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2777.36,"endTime":2783.12,"body":"they can leave those above them in the dark about  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2783.12,"endTime":2789.08,"body":"what the reality is, is. So what does this kind of "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2783.12,"endTime":2789.08,"body":"look like? Well, this can look like authoritarian  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2789.08,"endTime":2795.72,"body":"style leadership where, you know, it's the idea "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2789.08,"endTime":2795.72,"body":"of, you know, holding, holding too tight onto  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2795.72,"endTime":2801.88,"body":"people and projecting insecurities of yourself "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2795.72,"endTime":2801.88,"body":"into, in your job onto those that you work with  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2801.88,"endTime":2807.08,"body":"and driving away your top performers. It can look "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2801.88,"endTime":2807.08,"body":"like avoiding things. It can look like, you know,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2807.08,"endTime":2811.96,"body":"not addressing or handling conflict. It can look "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2807.08,"endTime":2811.96,"body":"like, you know, removal of authority as a way  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2811.96,"endTime":2817.36,"body":"to maintain control. Or it can look like James's "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2811.96,"endTime":2817.36,"body":"favorite thing, which is micromanagement. It can  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2817.36,"endTime":2823.92,"body":"look like controlling a team and siloing people "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2817.36,"endTime":2823.92,"body":"to keep everybody in the dark. But if you want to  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2823.92,"endTime":2829.16,"body":"fix these problems, we need to look at things like "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2823.92,"endTime":2829.16,"body":"training. We need to try and make sure that it's a  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2829.16,"endTime":2833.6,"body":"normal thing and it's part of most leadership and "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2829.16,"endTime":2833.6,"body":"management positions that people are continuously  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2833.6,"endTime":2838.36,"body":"improving their skills as leaders and managers. "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2833.6,"endTime":2838.36,"body":"But to do that, we also have to start measuring  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2838.36,"endTime":2843.96,"body":"people effectively. We have to create, we have to "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2838.36,"endTime":2843.96,"body":"create clear measurables that, that impact things  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2843.96,"endTime":2849.64,"body":"like the employee experience that actually have "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2843.96,"endTime":2849.64,"body":"things like 360s in your performance reviews in  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2849.64,"endTime":2855.12,"body":"creating you know, performance processes that "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2849.64,"endTime":2855.12,"body":"really leverage what's really important to the  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2855.12,"endTime":2860.08,"body":"business and ideally that's more than just "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2855.12,"endTime":2860.08,"body":"the stock price or the production outputs."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2860.08,"endTime":2861.02,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2861.02,"endTime":2866.36,"body":"All right, so that about does it for "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2861.02,"endTime":2866.36,"body":"us. For a full archive of the podcast and access  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2866.36,"endTime":2871.588,"body":"the video version hosted on our YouTube channel, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2866.36,"endTime":2871.588,"body":"visit Roman3ca Pod podcast. Thanks for joining us."},{"speaker":"[ANNOUNCER]","startTime":2871.588,"endTime":2876.84,"body":"For more information on topics "},{"speaker":"[ANNOUNCER]","startTime":2871.588,"endTime":2876.84,"body":"like these, don't forget to Visit us at  "},{"speaker":"[ANNOUNCER]","startTime":2876.84,"endTime":2882.84,"body":"Roman3ca. Side effects of this podcast may "},{"speaker":"[ANNOUNCER]","startTime":2876.84,"endTime":2882.84,"body":"include improved retention, high productivity,  "},{"speaker":"[ANNOUNCER]","startTime":2882.84,"endTime":2886.2,"body":"increased market share, employees "},{"speaker":"[ANNOUNCER]","startTime":2882.84,"endTime":2886.2,"body":"breaking out in spontaneous dance,  "},{"speaker":"[ANNOUNCER]","startTime":2886.2,"endTime":2892.84,"body":"dry mouth, a version of the sound of James’ "},{"speaker":"[ANNOUNCER]","startTime":2886.2,"endTime":2892.84,"body":"voice, desire to find a better podcast…"}]}