{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"[ANNOUNCER]","startTime":0.0,"endTime":5.4,"body":"Breaking down everyday workplace "},{"speaker":"[ANNOUNCER]","startTime":0.0,"endTime":5.4,"body":"issues and diagnosing the hidden sickness,  "},{"speaker":"[ANNOUNCER]","startTime":5.4,"endTime":10.16,"body":"not just the obvious symptom. "},{"speaker":"[ANNOUNCER]","startTime":5.4,"endTime":10.16,"body":"Our hosts, James and Coby."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":10.16,"endTime":11.98,"body":"Did we lose a patient?"},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":11.98,"endTime":14.98,"body":"No, that's just my lunch."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":14.98,"endTime":19.8,"body":"Hey, thanks for joining us. I'm Coby,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":19.8,"endTime":29.96,"body":"he's James. And let's get started with a "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":19.8,"endTime":29.96,"body":"question. What lessons can we learn from 2024?"},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":29.96,"endTime":35.2,"body":"Well, first of all, happy New "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":29.96,"endTime":35.2,"body":"Year. And if you're listening to this,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":35.2,"endTime":41.04,"body":"on New Year's Day, when this episode actually "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":35.2,"endTime":41.04,"body":"drops, then congratulations on starting your  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":41.04,"endTime":48.76,"body":"new year. Right. looking back over the last year, "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":41.04,"endTime":48.76,"body":"I think on the Roman 3 front, at least a lot has  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":48.76,"endTime":55.64,"body":"happened this year. we've developed some really "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":48.76,"endTime":55.64,"body":"cool, exciting new partnerships that we'll see.  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":55.64,"endTime":62.2,"body":"new products and new projects launched in "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":55.64,"endTime":62.2,"body":"2025. And coming off kind of a slow summer,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":62.2,"endTime":69.72,"body":"we had a very busy fall, which has been "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":62.2,"endTime":69.72,"body":"fantastic. we launched our podcast newsletter.  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":69.72,"endTime":76.32,"body":"We've onboarded new clients and we've had a lot "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":69.72,"endTime":76.32,"body":"of fun just ranting about a whole wide range of  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":76.32,"endTime":82.88,"body":"topics on the podcast. And what's kind of cool "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":76.32,"endTime":82.88,"body":"is, two and a half or three years into running,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":82.88,"endTime":89.56,"body":"this podcast now have over 60 episodes. "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":82.88,"endTime":89.56,"body":"We've got listeners in 124 countries and  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":89.56,"endTime":95.92,"body":"we've hit six or seven different, you know, "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":89.56,"endTime":95.92,"body":"top recommended podcast charts. And people  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":95.92,"endTime":100.32,"body":"are reaching out to us all the time, which has "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":95.92,"endTime":100.32,"body":"led to some really interesting conversations,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":100.32,"endTime":106.12,"body":"new relationships, new projects, and some really "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":100.32,"endTime":106.12,"body":"cool opportunities. So I really want to thank  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":106.12,"endTime":115.28,"body":"you for listening. Not you, because you don't "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":106.12,"endTime":115.28,"body":"matter. you, the listener. it's been a really  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":115.28,"endTime":121.16,"body":"cool journey and I appreciate the fact that "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":115.28,"endTime":121.16,"body":"people are willing to take this journey with us."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":121.16,"endTime":126.4,"body":"Yeah. And, we haven't really kind of "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":121.16,"endTime":126.4,"body":"plugged it in a while, but we really should get  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":126.4,"endTime":130.36,"body":"better at it. It's like, you know, there's "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":126.4,"endTime":130.36,"body":"a link in the show notes to our podcast,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":130.36,"endTime":135.48,"body":"newsletter sign up if that's something that "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":130.36,"endTime":135.48,"body":"you're interested in and you. We kind of,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":135.48,"endTime":137.64,"body":"send it out out quarterly and drop information."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":137.64,"endTime":141.52,"body":"And if you're listening to this "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":137.64,"endTime":141.52,"body":"on New Year's Day and you obviously can't  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":141.52,"endTime":147.98,"body":"get enough of us, so sign up for the newsletter "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":141.52,"endTime":147.98,"body":"and you can hear our voice and text and we can."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":147.98,"endTime":156.56,"body":"Be in your inbox, not just in your ear. "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":147.98,"endTime":156.56,"body":"but yeah, no, this has been ye. So, 2024 has been  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":156.56,"endTime":164.68,"body":"kind of a cool year for Roman 3, and I'm really "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":156.56,"endTime":164.68,"body":"excited for 2025. And honestly, we never get  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":164.68,"endTime":170.24,"body":"tired of folks who enjoy the podcast reaching out "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":164.68,"endTime":170.24,"body":"to us and kind of connecting with us again like  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":170.24,"endTime":176.28,"body":"some Cool projects have come from that. Some great "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":170.24,"endTime":176.28,"body":"partnerships. We've met such cool people. So this  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":176.28,"endTime":182.84,"body":"is one of our favorite kind of tools that we use "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":176.28,"endTime":182.84,"body":"to kind of help with kind of getting some of our  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":182.84,"endTime":189.92,"body":"business ideas out there and kind of help sharing "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":182.84,"endTime":189.92,"body":"and creating a dialogue with cool people. So if  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":189.92,"endTime":193.4,"body":"you've kind of always wanted to kind of chat with "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":189.92,"endTime":193.4,"body":"us, you just kind of feel like I'm sure they don't  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":193.4,"endTime":197.92,"body":"want to hear from me. We do. So don't be afraid "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":193.4,"endTime":197.92,"body":"to reach out. And some contact information how to  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":197.92,"endTime":203.6,"body":"get a hold of us is right in the show notes. But "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":197.92,"endTime":203.6,"body":"that being said, let's actually get into with the  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":203.6,"endTime":209.88,"body":"question of the podcast, which is what lessons can "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":203.6,"endTime":209.88,"body":"we learn from 2024? And there's a couple things  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":209.88,"endTime":215.52,"body":"that there's a few things that we kind of want "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":209.88,"endTime":215.52,"body":"to talk about. I mean this year there wasn't in  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":215.52,"endTime":222.16,"body":"a lot of ways as many big like news, you know, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":215.52,"endTime":222.16,"body":"shaking the kind of the business world kind of  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":222.16,"endTime":226.52,"body":"stuff that kind of happened in past years, like "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":222.16,"endTime":226.52,"body":"with strikes and this and that and this sort of  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":226.52,"endTime":230.92,"body":"thing. This year the stuff that kind of came in "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":226.52,"endTime":230.92,"body":"was a bit more subtle, was a bit more kind of  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":230.92,"endTime":236.68,"body":"continuation of stuff that happened in the past "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":230.92,"endTime":236.68,"body":"years. But it's all really worth talking about  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":236.68,"endTime":242.88,"body":"and it is worth reflecting on as we move forward "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":236.68,"endTime":242.88,"body":"into 2025. So I'just gonna give you a quick  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":242.88,"endTime":249.52,"body":"summary and then we'll dig into the first one. But "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":242.88,"endTime":249.52,"body":"the things we want to talk about are these kind of  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":249.52,"endTime":256.44,"body":"steady rollback of DEI strategies and positions "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":249.52,"endTime":256.44,"body":"in many, many companies kind of kind of across  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":256.44,"endTime":263.76,"body":"North America. we want talk about kind of there's "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":256.44,"endTime":263.76,"body":"still layoffs going on in the IT sector and not  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":263.76,"endTime":271.48,"body":"necessarily for the same reasons that they were "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":263.76,"endTime":271.48,"body":"kind of happening kind of in 2023. companies are  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":271.48,"endTime":275.72,"body":"getting really tired of trying to solve complex "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":271.48,"endTime":275.72,"body":"problems and that's go going toa be the interest  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":275.72,"endTime":281.96,"body":"one that we're going toa talk about. Yeah, and "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":275.72,"endTime":281.96,"body":"then we're seeing more and more businesses falling  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":281.96,"endTime":287.68,"body":"into the action is reaction, fallacy. So I think "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":281.96,"endTime":287.68,"body":"that a lot of these are going to end up kind of  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":287.68,"endTime":292.4,"body":"overlapping a bit but I think we can get started "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":287.68,"endTime":292.4,"body":"to jump into talking about the rollback of dei."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":292.4,"endTime":302.52,"body":"Yeah, I mean we've seen a lot of large "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":292.4,"endTime":302.52,"body":"companies very publicly talking about rolling  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":302.52,"endTime":313.0,"body":"back their efforts. I mean even Sherm has renamed "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":302.52,"endTime":313.0,"body":"its DEI function and really dropping equity from  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":313.0,"endTime":327.92,"body":"it. Microsoft was very public around the laying "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":313.0,"endTime":327.92,"body":"off DEI employees. Walmart has made some really  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":327.92,"endTime":339.16,"body":"big announcements about their rollback of DEI "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":327.92,"endTime":339.16,"body":"initiatives. This is only going to keep, this  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":339.16,"endTime":348.36,"body":"is going to be a trend through 2025, I suspect. "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":339.16,"endTime":348.36,"body":"In many ways it's unfortunate and I don't want  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":348.36,"endTime":357.68,"body":"to get into necessarily. Well, I think there's "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":348.36,"endTime":357.68,"body":"a lot of contributing factors to it. and I think  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":357.68,"endTime":366.24,"body":"part of that, part of the contributing factors are "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":357.68,"endTime":366.24,"body":"people been. We haven't done DEI very well in many  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":366.24,"endTime":375.88,"body":"companies. It's been largely performative or it's "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":366.24,"endTime":375.88,"body":"been tick boxes. It's been perfunctory lack of  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":375.88,"endTime":385.56,"body":"strategy. It's an annexed off the side department "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":375.88,"endTime":385.56,"body":"in and of itself that really isn't integrated into  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":385.56,"endTime":395.2,"body":"regular business operations. there's a lot "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":385.56,"endTime":395.2,"body":"happening in this space that is noteworthy."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":395.2,"endTime":400.64,"body":"Yeah, there has been this, you know, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":395.2,"endTime":400.64,"body":"like, like the kind of, there was a need for us,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":400.64,"endTime":407.28,"body":"like kind of a sweeping interjection of, you "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":400.64,"endTime":407.28,"body":"know, support around kind of you improving,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":407.28,"endTime":412.72,"body":"you know, representation and kind of inclusion "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":407.28,"endTime":412.72,"body":"and kind of like firm commitments around things  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":412.72,"endTime":417.88,"body":"like pay equity and equal treatment and "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":412.72,"endTime":417.88,"body":"that kind of stuff that, you know, again,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":417.88,"endTime":425.36,"body":"as a kind of fundamental elements that really kind "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":417.88,"endTime":425.36,"body":"of will benefit a business and really should be in  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":425.36,"endTime":430.32,"body":"place. And it's embarrassing that in our modern "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":425.36,"endTime":430.32,"body":"world these things aren't in place. Absolutely.  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":431.4,"endTime":440.72,"body":"It was the good thing about kind of the ramp up "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":431.4,"endTime":440.72,"body":"or the immediate kind of need or desire to kind  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":440.72,"endTime":448.64,"body":"of jump into improving dei. even the formation "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":440.72,"endTime":448.64,"body":"of the term DEI came from you know, something  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":448.64,"endTime":454.48,"body":"where people were starting to finally recognize "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":448.64,"endTime":454.48,"body":"this stuff is important. And I think though,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":454.48,"endTime":460.0,"body":"and we've been saying this kind of from the very "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":454.48,"endTime":460.0,"body":"beginning that we appreciate the fact that a lot  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":460.0,"endTime":465.2,"body":"of people kind of like go, oh, they can of "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":460.0,"endTime":465.2,"body":"came to realize that this stuff does matter.  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":465.2,"endTime":472.44,"body":"But then everything that kind of happened after "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":465.2,"endTime":472.44,"body":"that were things that we always kind of saw as  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":472.44,"endTime":477.12,"body":"being unsustainable. And we've done podcast "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":472.44,"endTime":477.12,"body":"episodes where we've talked about, you know,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":477.12,"endTime":482.84,"body":"like, things around like doing inclusion wrong "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":477.12,"endTime":482.84,"body":"and what does DEI really mean and all this other  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":482.84,"endTime":488.2,"body":"kind of stuff like that. And we've been kind of "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":482.84,"endTime":488.2,"body":"critical of the DEI infrastructure that's been  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":488.2,"endTime":495.08,"body":"out there. And I think a lot of it kind of comes "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":488.2,"endTime":495.08,"body":"from just this immediate almost like, okay, we  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":495.08,"endTime":500.0,"body":"need this. So let's just take the first idea that "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":495.08,"endTime":500.0,"body":"kind of comes to mind and then that first idea  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":500.0,"endTime":504.52,"body":"kind of spread. And whether it was a good idea was "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":500.0,"endTime":504.52,"body":"never validated. It was just, almost just like,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":504.52,"endTime":508.12,"body":"we need to have some something, so let's have "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":504.52,"endTime":508.12,"body":"something now. And I think that's where a Lot  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":508.12,"endTime":512.12,"body":"of the perform stuff comes from because whatever "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":508.12,"endTime":512.12,"body":"we do, we has to look like we're doing something  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":512.12,"endTime":517.24,"body":"right. Whether it had any impact or all was almost "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":512.12,"endTime":517.24,"body":"like something we'll figure out after the fact."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":517.24,"endTime":526.36,"body":"Yeah. And we've talked about this, many "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":517.24,"endTime":526.36,"body":"times before. The idea that the approach that most  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":526.36,"endTime":534.72,"body":"companies have been taking historically around "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":526.36,"endTime":534.72,"body":"DEI is that diversity plus equity will create  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":534.72,"endTime":547.0,"body":"inclusion. D plus E equals I. That's not a true "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":534.72,"endTime":547.0,"body":"statement, but I understand how we can get there  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":547.0,"endTime":554.04,"body":"and I understand the thought process behind it. "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":547.0,"endTime":554.04,"body":"Need representation is very important. We need  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":554.04,"endTime":561.08,"body":"more people, in our workplaces who represent the "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":554.04,"endTime":561.08,"body":"communities that we serve, the clients that we  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":561.08,"endTime":569.56,"body":"serve. It is an important element and diversity "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":561.08,"endTime":569.56,"body":"of perspective is an incredibly valuable, resource  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":569.56,"endTime":576.16,"body":"for businesses to capitalize on. But we've "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":569.56,"endTime":576.16,"body":"talked about the difference between inclusion  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":576.16,"endTime":584.4,"body":"and integration, when just bringing people into "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":576.16,"endTime":584.4,"body":"an organization and having them coexist does not  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":584.4,"endTime":591.96,"body":"automatically create an inclusive environment, "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":584.4,"endTime":591.96,"body":"it creates integration, which is not a bad thing.  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":591.96,"endTime":599.8,"body":"We want people to be able to coexist who have "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":591.96,"endTime":599.8,"body":"divergent backgrounds, experiences, opinions,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":599.8,"endTime":611.0,"body":"what have you. But this has led to a very "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":599.8,"endTime":611.0,"body":"unsustainable model of DEI because it's not  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":611.0,"endTime":618.52,"body":"creating an environment where people actually "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":611.0,"endTime":618.52,"body":"feel like they belong and the movement. I  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":618.52,"endTime":628.96,"body":"don't necessarily see the rollback of DEI in "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":618.52,"endTime":628.96,"body":"many ways as necessarily a purely negative.  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":630.8,"endTime":639.44,"body":"I'm not thrilled with the trend as it's happening. "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":630.8,"endTime":639.44,"body":"I would rather we get to the solution by enhancing  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":639.44,"endTime":645.6,"body":"our DEI efforts. But I think long term it's "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":639.44,"endTime":645.6,"body":"going to give us an opportunity to look at. Well,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":645.6,"endTime":652.88,"body":"the concepts are still vitally important and "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":645.6,"endTime":652.88,"body":"there's real valuable business outcomes that come  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":652.88,"endTime":660.2,"body":"from creating an environment where people belong "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":652.88,"endTime":660.2,"body":"and leveraging diversity of perspective in our  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":660.2,"endTime":667.32,"body":"organizations. I think we will have an opportunity "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":660.2,"endTime":667.32,"body":"to reframe what that looks like and not take  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":667.32,"endTime":674.08,"body":"the solely performative idea of how do we make "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":667.32,"endTime":674.08,"body":"ourselves look good on the company newsletter."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":674.08,"endTime":686.16,"body":"Yeah, I'm kind of on the same page with "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":674.08,"endTime":686.16,"body":"you as far as there's potentially some positive  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":686.16,"endTime":692.68,"body":"things that can come out of the rollback in as "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":686.16,"endTime":692.68,"body":"long as certain conditions are met. But I think  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":692.68,"endTime":698.2,"body":"it's also important for us to consider what is "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":692.68,"endTime":698.2,"body":"the kind of fundamental difference between the  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":698.2,"endTime":707.72,"body":"DEI concept, the focal point, theire the intended "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":698.2,"endTime":707.72,"body":"outcome, Versus the dei, implementation efforts  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":707.72,"endTime":712.56,"body":"and strategies that were commonplace in "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":707.72,"endTime":712.56,"body":"our workplaces. Because you and I firmly  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":712.56,"endTime":718.84,"body":"agree that the intended outcome is excellent and "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":712.56,"endTime":718.84,"body":"that is something that we should have and it's  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":718.84,"endTime":724.6,"body":"embarrassing in the fact that we don't in most "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":718.84,"endTime":724.6,"body":"of our workplaces. But you and I have been very  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":724.6,"endTime":731.0,"body":"be consistently critical about the way that the EI "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":724.6,"endTime":731.0,"body":"gets implemented and the common kind of narrative  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":731.0,"endTime":736.08,"body":"around it about what it looks like. Because you're "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":731.0,"endTime":736.08,"body":"right, there's a lot of performative solutions.  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":736.08,"endTime":743.32,"body":"There's a lot of like tacked on, you know, like "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":736.08,"endTime":743.32,"body":"people hired with no to do DEI roles with zero  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":743.32,"endTime":747.76,"body":"authority. You, they're an appendix to kind of "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":743.32,"endTime":747.76,"body":"every other department and they're supposed to  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":747.76,"endTime":752.76,"body":"kind of lead from like you, the janitor's closet "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":747.76,"endTime":752.76,"body":"down the hall on something that's supposed to be  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":752.76,"endTime":757.52,"body":"transformative to an organization. Right. The "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":752.76,"endTime":757.52,"body":"thing that you and I have always said, and  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":757.52,"endTime":762.56,"body":"this is something that we talk about in a number "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":757.52,"endTime":762.56,"body":"of different fashions, is the concept of chaos  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":762.56,"endTime":771.56,"body":"solutions. dei, the implementation of it, the "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":762.56,"endTime":771.56,"body":"performative approach of it. Again, the reactive  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":771.56,"endTime":777.84,"body":"implementation of some type of DEI concept of "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":771.56,"endTime":777.84,"body":"tacked on training and tacked on positions is a  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":777.84,"endTime":783.46,"body":"chaos solution. And this to refresh people. Chaos "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":777.84,"endTime":783.46,"body":"solution is when you implement a strategy or a  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":783.46,"endTime":790.28,"body":"plan that you expect will have a transformative "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":783.46,"endTime":790.28,"body":"effect but you've not done the prerequisite work  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":790.28,"endTime":797.12,"body":"to ensure you have a foundation to build from. "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":790.28,"endTime":797.12,"body":"This creates unsupported and unsustainable  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":797.12,"endTime":803.46,"body":"endeavor that will ultimately cause more harm "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":797.12,"endTime":803.46,"body":"and turmoil than create a positive effect."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":803.46,"endTime":810.52,"body":"Is that not exact? Yeah, that's exactly "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":803.46,"endTime":810.52,"body":"what has been happening with many DEI efforts.  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":810.52,"endTime":816.04,"body":"The complete lack of strategy, the lack of "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":810.52,"endTime":816.04,"body":"focus on any type of organizational change,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":816.04,"endTime":824.04,"body":"meaningful organizational environmental change "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":816.04,"endTime":824.04,"body":"and structural change to support it. Plunking  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":824.04,"endTime":831.32,"body":"in these programs that have wonderful "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":824.04,"endTime":831.32,"body":"and important intentions and outcomes  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":831.32,"endTime":836.34,"body":"around them that are being cut off at the "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":831.32,"endTime":836.34,"body":"knees before they can ever get started."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":836.34,"endTime":843.72,"body":"Yeah, well, I mean if you take people out "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":836.34,"endTime":843.72,"body":"of there every day and sit them down into like  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":843.72,"endTime":849.04,"body":"anti bias training, cultural sensitivity training, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":843.72,"endTime":849.04,"body":"which is what a lot of DEI stuff was after right  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":849.04,"endTime":854.84,"body":"of the gate in kind of 2020 and 2021. And then "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":849.04,"endTime":854.84,"body":"you plun them back in their everyday work and say  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":854.84,"endTime":861.36,"body":"cool, DEI achieved. That's like an absolute "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":854.84,"endTime":861.36,"body":"chaos solution. No prerequisite work done,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":861.36,"endTime":870.0,"body":"no larger strategy. Just insert this one thing "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":861.36,"endTime":870.0,"body":"and problem solved. And we can check the box or  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":870.0,"endTime":877.44,"body":"we've done something, we've performed an action "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":870.0,"endTime":877.44,"body":"that has created dei. and again. Or they hire  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":877.44,"endTime":882.56,"body":"people into these positions that sound really good "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":877.44,"endTime":882.56,"body":"that people were very excited for. Come to find  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":882.56,"endTime":889.4,"body":"out they maybe have a director level job title, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":882.56,"endTime":889.4,"body":"but their authority is that of a payroll clerk,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":889.4,"endTime":896.6,"body":"like, you know, very much just unsupported and "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":889.4,"endTime":896.6,"body":"very performative and people with great skills  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":896.6,"endTime":901.4,"body":"who could probably done amazing things in a lot of "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":896.6,"endTime":901.4,"body":"these major corporations to create Very effective  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":901.4,"endTime":908.96,"body":"transformative change relegated to just a fringe "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":901.4,"endTime":908.96,"body":"role that was doomed to fail because it was not  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":908.96,"endTime":913.88,"body":"designed with any kind of strategy. And the "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":908.96,"endTime":913.88,"body":"speed the, a lot of the stuff was implemented  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":913.88,"endTime":918.52,"body":"really speaks to how chaotic these solutions were "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":913.88,"endTime":918.52,"body":"in many companies. So then the fact they're like,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":918.52,"endTime":923.72,"body":"well, clearly DEI is not important, otherwise "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":918.52,"endTime":923.72,"body":"it would have made a difference by now."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":923.72,"endTime":927.24,"body":"And obviously it doesn't work. So why "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":923.72,"endTime":927.24,"body":"are we going to continue going and doing it?"},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":927.24,"endTime":933.48,"body":"Yeah. And that's the piece that I'm upset "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":927.24,"endTime":933.48,"body":"about is, and we talked about this kind of in  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":933.48,"endTime":939.68,"body":"past episodes, why cultural transformations "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":933.48,"endTime":939.68,"body":"don't often take off the way they should is  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":939.68,"endTime":946.92,"body":"because it's not necessarily the apathy that we "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":939.68,"endTime":946.92,"body":"think, to change that most people think is the  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":946.92,"endTime":952.04,"body":"biggest barrier. It'd the existence of perform "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":946.92,"endTime":952.04,"body":"solutions that failed that people can now say,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":952.04,"endTime":955.96,"body":"well, we tried it and it didn't work, so "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":952.04,"endTime":955.96,"body":"we're just going to give up on it. Yeah,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":955.96,"endTime":961.36,"body":"but you tried a chaos solution and that you "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":955.96,"endTime":961.36,"body":"set yourself up to fail and then you failed.  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":961.36,"endTime":967.48,"body":"No surprise. So it's. So you really can't "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":961.36,"endTime":967.48,"body":"claim that chaos solution that you tried was  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":967.48,"endTime":973.92,"body":"a sincere effort because it was just again "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":967.48,"endTime":973.92,"body":"was. There was no prerequisite work done to  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":973.92,"endTime":979.52,"body":"build the foundation off of. And it was. "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":973.92,"endTime":979.52,"body":"And it was unsupported and unsustainable."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":979.52,"endTime":990.2,"body":"Yeah, it is disappointing. "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":979.52,"endTime":990.2,"body":"Like hearing, seeing the news headline,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":990.2,"endTime":998.8,"body":"seeing major corporations, publicly coming "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":990.2,"endTime":998.8,"body":"out, not necessarily against, but certainly,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":999.6,"endTime":1005.88,"body":"rolling back what they're doing or deprioritizing "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":999.6,"endTime":1005.88,"body":"it. It is discouraging and it's got to be  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1005.88,"endTime":1014.12,"body":"discouraging for the, DEI professionals who are "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1005.88,"endTime":1014.12,"body":"working in this field. but I mean, it's also got  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1014.12,"endTime":1023.0,"body":"to be discouraging to be in a position where you "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1014.12,"endTime":1023.0,"body":"have the potential for such meaningful change and  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1023.0,"endTime":1029.04,"body":"outcomes and to be constantly cut off at the "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1023.0,"endTime":1029.04,"body":"knees. So I'm hoping that good can come from  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1029.04,"endTime":1037.24,"body":"this. I'm choosing to remain positive, that we "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1029.04,"endTime":1037.24,"body":"can actually learn something from this. And as  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1037.24,"endTime":1047.44,"body":"we begin to look at not what are the performative, "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1037.24,"endTime":1047.44,"body":"pieces that, because DEI is no longer a buzzword.  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1047.44,"endTime":1052.8,"body":"Right. If companies are, moving away from it, "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1047.44,"endTime":1052.8,"body":"then maybe we can actually take the time for  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1052.8,"endTime":1059.36,"body":"those companies that truly value it to look at. "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1052.8,"endTime":1059.36,"body":"Okay. It's not about what everybody else is doing  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1059.36,"endTime":1066.28,"body":"and it's not about what is going to be really "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1059.36,"endTime":1066.28,"body":"visual and really, stand out on your company  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1066.28,"endTime":1074.92,"body":"letterhead or corporate newsletter or whatever "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1066.28,"endTime":1074.92,"body":"other crap we previously focused on. How can we  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1074.92,"endTime":1083.52,"body":"actually create an environment where people feel "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1074.92,"endTime":1083.52,"body":"like they belong, where we can attract top talent,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1083.52,"endTime":1090.04,"body":"where we can bring in diverse perspectives and "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1083.52,"endTime":1090.04,"body":"where we can make people feel valued for who they  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1090.04,"endTime":1098.0,"body":"are. Like that's what we need to get to and we "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1090.04,"endTime":1098.0,"body":"can get there if we just look at take a strategic  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1098.0,"endTime":1104.32,"body":"approach to what we're doing operate with "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1098.0,"endTime":1104.32,"body":"intent. It should not be this, I shouldn't have."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1104.32,"endTime":1110.4,"body":"To say it your right. For companies "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1104.32,"endTime":1110.4,"body":"that actually wanted to achieve it and whether  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1110.96,"endTime":1117.36,"body":"they are rolling it back or not, or maybe at "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1110.96,"endTime":1117.36,"body":"least if nothing there could be benefit from  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1117.36,"endTime":1122.36,"body":"this kind of consistent rollback, it could "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1117.36,"endTime":1122.36,"body":"be a good thing if we use it as a reflection  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1122.36,"endTime":1131.0,"body":"point. Right. And here's I think the key. As "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1122.36,"endTime":1131.0,"body":"long as companies see the failure of the dei,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1131.0,"endTime":1138.96,"body":"implementation as a failure of strategy and "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1131.0,"endTime":1138.96,"body":"not a failure of concept, then I think there is  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1138.96,"endTime":1143.56,"body":"something very beneficial that can come "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1138.96,"endTime":1143.56,"body":"from us using this as a reflection point,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1143.56,"endTime":1152.12,"body":"trying again with intent, as you aggressively "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1143.56,"endTime":1152.12,"body":"said, and then actually be able to not create  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1152.12,"endTime":1157.16,"body":"more chaos solutions, but actually create "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1152.12,"endTime":1157.16,"body":"sustainable supported projects that will  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1157.16,"endTime":1162.8,"body":"actually make a real transformative difference "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1157.16,"endTime":1162.8,"body":"and not just something that looks good on social  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1162.8,"endTime":1167.16,"body":"media and sounds good when being interviewed "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1162.8,"endTime":1167.16,"body":"but actually does make a real difference."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1167.16,"endTime":1171.98,"body":"Yeah, that's what we need to focus on."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1171.98,"endTime":1177.68,"body":"Yeah, absolutely. All right, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1171.98,"endTime":1177.68,"body":"so let's move on to the second thing  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1177.68,"endTime":1186.36,"body":"we wanted to talk about looking back at "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1177.68,"endTime":1186.36,"body":"2024. so we still saw some layoffs in the  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1186.36,"endTime":1194.28,"body":"IT sector that continued throughout 2024 and "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1186.36,"endTime":1194.28,"body":"it was something that a lot of the general  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1194.28,"endTime":1198.8,"body":"layoffs in a lot of different sectors kind "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1194.28,"endTime":1198.8,"body":"of did slow down but the layups and it did  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1198.8,"endTime":1204.56,"body":"seem to kind of continue. And this is something "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1198.8,"endTime":1204.56,"body":"there's been lots of different like why they did  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1204.56,"endTime":1211.12,"body":"it. It wasn't so much concern about recessionary "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1204.56,"endTime":1211.12,"body":"stuff or the economy or this. Some of it was like  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1211.12,"endTime":1218.0,"body":"talks about there being some still some economic "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1211.12,"endTime":1218.0,"body":"uncertainty or some people kind of feel like they  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1218.0,"endTime":1223.64,"body":"had overhiired in the past. and then others "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1218.0,"endTime":1223.64,"body":"kind of talk about there being kind of this  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1223.64,"endTime":1230.84,"body":"rapidly changing transformation and approaches to "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1223.64,"endTime":1230.84,"body":"business strategy. Some like disrupting elements,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1230.84,"endTime":1236.28,"body":"things like, like AI is a good example, but by no "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1230.84,"endTime":1236.28,"body":"means is it the only example. they found a lot of  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1236.28,"endTime":1241.88,"body":"companies kind of restructuring the way that they "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1236.28,"endTime":1241.88,"body":"think about the kind of employee skills that they  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1241.88,"endTime":1252.28,"body":"need. And so again I think that there's this kind "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1241.88,"endTime":1252.28,"body":"of concern of this fast paced kind of like changes  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1252.28,"endTime":1258.72,"body":"and disruptors are coming into the IT sector that "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1252.28,"endTime":1258.72,"body":"most companies are in the sector are kind of just  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1258.72,"endTime":1264.24,"body":"like, well if we're going to be able to kind "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1258.72,"endTime":1264.24,"body":"of weather this new stuff, we can weather it  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1264.24,"endTime":1271.96,"body":"better if we're lean than if we're overstaffed. "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1264.24,"endTime":1271.96,"body":"So let's continue the layoffs. That way we can  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1271.96,"endTime":1277.66,"body":"pivot easier with a smaller ship. I think that's "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1271.96,"endTime":1277.66,"body":"probably what some of the mentality behind it is."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1277.66,"endTime":1287.08,"body":"Yeah, and the whole lean mentality is "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1277.66,"endTime":1287.08,"body":"what drives a lot of layoff proceedings. That  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1287.08,"endTime":1291.96,"body":"and we need to run lean or we need to get "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1287.08,"endTime":1291.96,"body":"our numbers up for this quarter, what have  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1291.96,"endTime":1300.92,"body":"you. Yah, the tech sector is an interesting case "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1291.96,"endTime":1300.92,"body":"because while I don't want to put too much focus  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1300.92,"endTime":1309.52,"body":"on AI as the boogeyman, I do think that it's "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1300.92,"endTime":1309.52,"body":"had a real impact and I think it's probably  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1309.52,"endTime":1318.76,"body":"had an impact at specific levels or authority "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1309.52,"endTime":1318.76,"body":"levels or within the tech sector because the  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1318.76,"endTime":1326.96,"body":"requirements to get started have been "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1318.76,"endTime":1326.96,"body":"lowered with AI. And I think companies  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1326.96,"endTime":1332.68,"body":"are taking advantage of that, which I mean we "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1326.96,"endTime":1332.68,"body":"can't really fault them on taking advantage of  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1332.68,"endTime":1340.64,"body":"these new tools. I mean it happens across all "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1332.68,"endTime":1340.64,"body":"sectors. but it leaves the tech industry in an  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1340.64,"endTime":1348.68,"body":"interesting place. If you have the generative "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1340.64,"endTime":1348.68,"body":"AI doing a lot of the more manual operations  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1348.68,"endTime":1355.88,"body":"in generating first passes of code, then you need "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1348.68,"endTime":1355.88,"body":"fewer people. but it's also done an interesting  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1355.88,"endTime":1365.72,"body":"piece around data analytics which is. And "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1355.88,"endTime":1365.72,"body":"the way that AI system is going to actually  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1365.72,"endTime":1371.74,"body":"understand and generate and visualize "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1365.72,"endTime":1371.74,"body":"data now is coming a significant ways."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1371.74,"endTime":1376.0,"body":"Well and for me again I don't want "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1371.74,"endTime":1376.0,"body":"to underscore the impact the AIs had on it  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1376.0,"endTime":1384.0,"body":"too. But to me the continued layoffs about kind "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1376.0,"endTime":1384.0,"body":"of concerned about overhiiring and again just  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1384.0,"endTime":1390.64,"body":"trying to prepare for economic uncertainty, and "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1384.0,"endTime":1390.64,"body":"fear of the rapid transformation and changes in  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1390.64,"endTime":1400.76,"body":"strategy is to me more of a sign of a gut "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1390.64,"endTime":1400.76,"body":"reaction to having bad change management  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1400.76,"endTime":1411.6,"body":"practices. Right. To me that's more. What is "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1400.76,"endTime":1411.6,"body":"that again the idea of we can pivot better,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1411.6,"endTime":1421.48,"body":"we're more agile if we're leaner, there's "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1411.6,"endTime":1421.48,"body":"some validity to that concept. But the idea  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1421.48,"endTime":1432.28,"body":"of being leaner, having less employees, having of "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1421.48,"endTime":1432.28,"body":"people carrying more work individually than teams  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1432.28,"endTime":1441.96,"body":"do come of collectively, isn't a replacement "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1432.28,"endTime":1441.96,"body":"for being able to handle change. Lean doesn't  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1441.96,"endTime":1446.56,"body":"replace being agile. I guess it may be kind "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1441.96,"endTime":1446.56,"body":"of the summary of that statement. Right. If  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1446.56,"endTime":1452.52,"body":"you are concerned about the size of your boat "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1446.56,"endTime":1452.52,"body":"and it's easier to turn a smaller boat than a  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1452.52,"endTime":1457.4,"body":"bigger boat. But if you're really bad at "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1452.52,"endTime":1457.4,"body":"turning any kind of boat, then the size."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1457.4,"endTime":1460.64,"body":"Of it, if you're a "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1457.4,"endTime":1460.64,"body":"terrible captain, then too bad."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1460.64,"endTime":1467.48,"body":"And that's kind of where I'm going. "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1460.64,"endTime":1467.48,"body":"Right. Because I mean if we are afraid of  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1468.72,"endTime":1474.44,"body":"Our ability, to handle the change. If we're not "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1468.72,"endTime":1474.44,"body":"confident in our change management practices,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1474.44,"endTime":1482.92,"body":"in our ability to kind of evolve and adapt and "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1474.44,"endTime":1482.92,"body":"have some agility in our strategy, then I can see  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1482.92,"endTime":1490.8,"body":"this idea of like again, reducing our, our numbers "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1482.92,"endTime":1490.8,"body":"so we've got, it's easier to kind of control  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1490.8,"endTime":1498.32,"body":"a smaller group. But to me that's a reaction "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1490.8,"endTime":1498.32,"body":"of fear rather than a reaction of conditions.  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1499.52,"endTime":1505.92,"body":"And that's something that I'm not saying every "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1499.52,"endTime":1505.92,"body":"company that is doing this is acting out of fear  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1505.92,"endTime":1510.24,"body":"and is unconfident inility to change. But I "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1505.92,"endTime":1510.24,"body":"do think that's something that is probably  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1510.24,"endTime":1517.2,"body":"a much bigger part of this story than what "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1510.24,"endTime":1517.2,"body":"most people are thinking about when they're  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1517.2,"endTime":1522.24,"body":"pointing to disruptors like AI as being "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1517.2,"endTime":1522.24,"body":"the cause or the economic uncertainties  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1522.24,"endTime":1526.96,"body":"being in the cause. I really do think that "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1522.24,"endTime":1526.96,"body":"those are probably symptoms. But I think the  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1526.96,"endTime":1532.94,"body":"core piece is that this is a reaction to being "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1526.96,"endTime":1532.94,"body":"unprepared or unconfident in managing change."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1532.94,"endTime":1538.12,"body":"Yeah, that's an interesting "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1532.94,"endTime":1538.12,"body":"take because for those companies that  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1538.12,"endTime":1544.16,"body":"are focusing on we need to be lean, we need "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1538.12,"endTime":1544.16,"body":"to be agile, we need to be able to pivot,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1545.12,"endTime":1551.08,"body":"layoffs is what is the strategy that they've "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1545.12,"endTime":1551.08,"body":"employed for years to be able to accomplish  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1551.08,"endTime":1558.72,"body":"that. But what happens once you do pivot "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1551.08,"endTime":1558.72,"body":"and you don't have the staffing required  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1558.72,"endTime":1565.28,"body":"to actually get back up to speed quickly in a "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1558.72,"endTime":1565.28,"body":"new market with a new product or what have you?"},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1565.28,"endTime":1577.16,"body":"Yeah, to me I kind of see it as this "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1565.28,"endTime":1577.16,"body":"idea of going lean to improve agility is. Or as  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1577.16,"endTime":1583.8,"body":"a replacement or as kind of your main strategy "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1577.16,"endTime":1583.8,"body":"for being agile is like a boxer saying, well,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1583.8,"endTime":1589.84,"body":"I need to make weight for tomorrow's match so "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1583.8,"endTime":1589.84,"body":"I'CUT off my arm and I'll drop five pounds. Right.  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1589.84,"endTime":1596.36,"body":"Like to me it says faulty of a logic as that "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1589.84,"endTime":1596.36,"body":"is, rather than put the effort in to be really,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1596.36,"endTime":1605.76,"body":"you be prepared. It's a reactionary short term "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1596.36,"endTime":1605.76,"body":"thinking that ends up being kind of the default."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1605.76,"endTime":1608.32,"body":"Yeah, no, I think it's "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1605.76,"endTime":1608.32,"body":"an interesting perspective."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1608.32,"endTime":1612.52,"body":"All right, so let's talk about "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1608.32,"endTime":1612.52,"body":"the third one. This is one I've actually  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1612.52,"endTime":1615.44,"body":"been really excited to talk about with "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1612.52,"endTime":1615.44,"body":"you. Definitely a common trend this past  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1615.44,"endTime":1623.28,"body":"year that companies are tired of trying to "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1615.44,"endTime":1623.28,"body":"solve complex problems. And that fatigue,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1623.28,"endTime":1631.88,"body":"that being tired of this constantly solving "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1623.28,"endTime":1631.88,"body":"problems is becoming a major strain on any  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1631.88,"endTime":1638.54,"body":"kind of progress or progression and is "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1631.88,"endTime":1638.54,"body":"going to be a continual problem in 2025."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1638.54,"endTime":1643.76,"body":"Yeah, this has been really frustrating. I  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1643.76,"endTime":1648.16,"body":"mean it's funny because in the opening "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1643.76,"endTime":1648.16,"body":"I talked about things have been great,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1648.84,"endTime":1657.64,"body":"this fall for us personally. but I can't count the "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1648.84,"endTime":1657.64,"body":"number of times out of sheer frustration talking  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1657.64,"endTime":1663.96,"body":"with you, talking about, you know, conversations "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1657.64,"endTime":1663.96,"body":"that we're having, either prospective clients,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1663.96,"endTime":1671.36,"body":"past clients. People don't want to change. "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1663.96,"endTime":1671.36,"body":"They just don't want their problems to exist."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1671.36,"endTime":1672.14,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1672.14,"endTime":1677.0,"body":"And they're just really tired of."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1677.0,"endTime":1678.12,"body":"Feeling."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1678.12,"endTime":1681.56,"body":"like they've, they're spinning "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1678.12,"endTime":1681.56,"body":"their wheels or doing the wrong thing. I  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1681.56,"endTime":1689.04,"body":"think a lot of it comes down to things that "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1681.56,"endTime":1689.04,"body":"we've already touched on. the performative  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1689.04,"endTime":1694.36,"body":"solutions do not get you the results that you "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1689.04,"endTime":1694.36,"body":"think that you should be getting. You won't see  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1694.36,"endTime":1703.08,"body":"a true ROI on implementing new strategies "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1694.36,"endTime":1703.08,"body":"if you're focused on productivity theater.  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1703.08,"endTime":1710.28,"body":"It has been frustrating in many ways. "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1703.08,"endTime":1710.28,"body":"kind of going through and seeing this  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1710.28,"endTime":1719.66,"body":"perspective of a bit of a fatigue "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1710.28,"endTime":1719.66,"body":"around addressing crucial issues."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1719.66,"endTime":1724.92,"body":"Yeah, I mean like this is something "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1719.66,"endTime":1724.92,"body":"that is so again, like our, like we were saying,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1724.92,"endTime":1731.84,"body":"our year has been quite good, but we have tons "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1724.92,"endTime":1731.84,"body":"of colleagues in different elements or different  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1731.84,"endTime":1737.32,"body":"parts of consulting and fractional work and "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1731.84,"endTime":1737.32,"body":"interim leaders and all this other kind of  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1737.32,"endTime":1743.64,"body":"stuff that do kind of like lots of people are in "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1737.32,"endTime":1743.64,"body":"our network. And what's really kind of what we saw  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1743.64,"endTime":1753.32,"body":"a surprising trend this fall was so many people "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1743.64,"endTime":1753.32,"body":"had contracts end or get dropped or clients that  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1753.32,"endTime":1759.4,"body":"they were onboard and kind of pull out. A lot "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1753.32,"endTime":1759.4,"body":"of that worked for a lot of people dried up,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1759.4,"endTime":1767.52,"body":"you know, at very quickly in the last two quarters "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1759.4,"endTime":1767.52,"body":"of 2024. And so first we were like, oh, well  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1767.52,"endTime":1771.88,"body":"that's a shame about that isolated incident. But "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1767.52,"endTime":1771.88,"body":"then we kept hearing about it and I think it is  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1771.88,"endTime":1780.08,"body":"this fatigue and I do think that it is what you’ve "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1771.88,"endTime":1780.08,"body":"said that people are tired of trying to address  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1780.08,"endTime":1785.08,"body":"these issues. They’re now at the point where they "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1780.08,"endTime":1785.08,"body":"just don't want the issues to exist and they're  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1785.08,"endTime":1790.12,"body":"just kind of like covering their ears and closing "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1785.08,"endTime":1790.12,"body":"their eyes and la la la la la. Ah, this isn't a  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1790.12,"endTime":1796.6,"body":"problem I have anymore. Is kind of the official "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1790.12,"endTime":1796.6,"body":"business strategy that we've seen companies turn  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1796.6,"endTime":1803.64,"body":"down perspective work and proposals in favor of. "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1796.6,"endTime":1803.64,"body":"So instead of us hiring you to help us solve this  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1803.64,"endTime":1806.44,"body":"problem, we're tired of this problem existing, so "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1803.64,"endTime":1806.44,"body":"we're just going to cover our ears and close our  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1806.44,"endTime":1812.56,"body":"eyes and pretend that it's not happening. Tends "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1806.44,"endTime":1812.56,"body":"to be what the normal thing has been, especially  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1812.56,"endTime":1820.4,"body":"in the last two quarters for many, many, many "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1812.56,"endTime":1820.4,"body":"people in kind of the consulting and kind of you  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1820.4,"endTime":1827.44,"body":"organizational solutions and transformation and "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1820.4,"endTime":1827.44,"body":"all the kind of in the sectors and been. It's been  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1827.44,"endTime":1833.28,"body":"sad, especially when you consider how persistent "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1827.44,"endTime":1833.28,"body":"the problems are. The problems are not going  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1833.28,"endTime":1839.88,"body":"away. Employee retention, employee motivation, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1833.28,"endTime":1839.88,"body":"workforce longevity, all these things are still,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1839.88,"endTime":1845.0,"body":"they're actually getting worse. But businesses "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1839.88,"endTime":1845.0,"body":"seem to be slowing down in their focus and  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1845.0,"endTime":1850.36,"body":"commitment to organizational transformation, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1845.0,"endTime":1850.36,"body":"choosing to ignore the problem in hopes that  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1850.36,"endTime":1858.08,"body":"it goes away. And this is where we see this. "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1850.36,"endTime":1858.08,"body":"And this is just, I think it all boils down to  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1858.08,"endTime":1862.16,"body":"fatigue. They're just tired of this stuff, so "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1858.08,"endTime":1862.16,"body":"they're looking for shortcuts or they're looking  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1862.16,"endTime":1868.28,"body":"to just again, use denial that this problem "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1862.16,"endTime":1868.28,"body":"will resolve itself. Everybody wants stuff  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1868.28,"endTime":1875.14,"body":"to go back to normal and they're not willing "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1868.28,"endTime":1875.14,"body":"to accept that normal is no longer a thing."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1875.14,"endTime":1877.72,"body":"This is normal."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":1877.72,"endTime":1878.62,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1878.62,"endTime":1884.96,"body":"Until you actually address these "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1878.62,"endTime":1884.96,"body":"issues, it's going to continue to be your  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1884.96,"endTime":1895.2,"body":"normal. It's funny, we're now into, officially "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1884.96,"endTime":1895.2,"body":"into 2025. we're almost five. I'm going to  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1895.2,"endTime":1900.6,"body":"go back to Covid because I still hear people "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1895.2,"endTime":1900.6,"body":"talking about wanting to get back to the way  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1900.6,"endTime":1907.12,"body":"things were pre Covid. We have to accept some "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1900.6,"endTime":1907.12,"body":"of the new realities, the new expectations,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1907.12,"endTime":1916.2,"body":"the changing priorities. I've said it before with "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1907.12,"endTime":1916.2,"body":"clients, I've said it before on this podcast that  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1916.2,"endTime":1924.12,"body":"if you had customers who suddenly stopped buying "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1916.2,"endTime":1924.12,"body":"from you, you would spend an awful lot of time,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1924.12,"endTime":1930.24,"body":"energy and resources into investigating "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1924.12,"endTime":1930.24,"body":"why they stopped buying from you. And then  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1930.24,"endTime":1937.36,"body":"you would take strategic. You'd create a plan, "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1930.24,"endTime":1937.36,"body":"you'd create a strategy, you'd develop some tool  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1937.36,"endTime":1946.88,"body":"implementation to change to make sure that your "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1937.36,"endTime":1946.88,"body":"value proposition is aligned with your customers,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1946.88,"endTime":1955.44,"body":"needs that what you are offering them actually "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1946.88,"endTime":1955.44,"body":"now still meets the outcomes, the needs that they,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1955.44,"endTime":1961.8,"body":"that you think that they need. You would put a lot "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1955.44,"endTime":1961.8,"body":"of time, energy and effort into understanding the  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1961.8,"endTime":1974.68,"body":"problem. Yet when workforce expectations changed, "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1961.8,"endTime":1974.68,"body":"when had, when we saw significant trends in kind  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1974.68,"endTime":1984.44,"body":"of push back against the normal from years ago, "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1974.68,"endTime":1984.44,"body":"Companies didn't investigate why. They didn't take  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1984.44,"endTime":1991.56,"body":"the time to understand the new motivations. They "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1984.44,"endTime":1991.56,"body":"didn't invest in understanding the problem. They  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1991.56,"endTime":1997.84,"body":"criticized people for the changing expectations. "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1991.56,"endTime":1997.84,"body":"If you had done that in the consumer market,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1997.84,"endTime":2004.68,"body":"if your customers stop purchasing from you and "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":1997.84,"endTime":2004.68,"body":"you criticize them and call them lazy for not  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2004.68,"endTime":2009.56,"body":"buying your product anymore, it's not really "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2004.68,"endTime":2009.56,"body":"going to help your case now is it? But that's  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2009.56,"endTime":2017.2,"body":"the approach that many businesses took to labor "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2009.56,"endTime":2017.2,"body":"problems. Rather than taking a strategic effort in  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2017.2,"endTime":2025.58,"body":"understanding what needs to change, how do I need "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2017.2,"endTime":2025.58,"body":"to adapt to the new realities of the situation?"},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2025.58,"endTime":2035.32,"body":"Yeah, it's one of those things where the "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2025.58,"endTime":2035.32,"body":"like. We've worked with a number of businesses  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2035.32,"endTime":2041.76,"body":"that have been largely for decades, kind of "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2035.32,"endTime":2041.76,"body":"been immune to kind of the ebbs and flows of the  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2041.76,"endTime":2050.52,"body":"workforce. And they're now facing these same major "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2041.76,"endTime":2050.52,"body":"issues with employee attraction and retention,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2050.52,"endTime":2058.28,"body":"employee motivation, workforce longevity, like "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2050.52,"endTime":2058.28,"body":"I said before, and they're not really willing  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2058.28,"endTime":2065.16,"body":"to put the work in to actually resolving them "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2058.28,"endTime":2065.16,"body":"because the mentality is kind of almost best  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2065.16,"endTime":2071.04,"body":"summarized as well, these were problems we "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2065.16,"endTime":2071.04,"body":"didn't have before and we don't want these  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2071.04,"endTime":2079.88,"body":"to be problems anymore. So there, like that's, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2071.04,"endTime":2079.88,"body":"that's kind of we don't want this to be a problem  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2079.88,"endTime":2086.64,"body":"is almost like the you when you summarize "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2079.88,"endTime":2086.64,"body":"everything down to kind of to. To brass text,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2086.64,"endTime":2088.8,"body":"that's really what they're saying. "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2086.64,"endTime":2088.8,"body":"We don't want this to be a problem."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2088.8,"endTime":2092.68,"body":"Well, they pass the. It's about "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2088.8,"endTime":2092.68,"body":"passing the buck. Right? It can't possibly  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2092.68,"endTime":2097.76,"body":"be anything that I'm doing or not doing. It "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2092.68,"endTime":2097.76,"body":"has to be a problem with the workforce. It  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2097.76,"endTime":2101.2,"body":"has to be that people don't want to work "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2097.76,"endTime":2101.2,"body":"anymore. It has to be that employees are  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2101.2,"endTime":2108.28,"body":"lazy. It has to be, you know, they're entitled "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2101.2,"endTime":2108.28,"body":"and they don't want to work. And they, you know,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2108.28,"endTime":2118.0,"body":"everybody's focused on, outside priorities "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2108.28,"endTime":2118.0,"body":"rather than prioritizing work. Well, okay,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2118.0,"endTime":2122.5,"body":"even if all of thats true, okay, "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2118.0,"endTime":2122.5,"body":"what are you going to do about it?"},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2122.5,"endTime":2132.0,"body":"Right. Yeah. And yeah it's one of those "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2122.5,"endTime":2132.0,"body":"things where like, we do get that this stuff is  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2132.0,"endTime":2137.16,"body":"complex. We do get that this stuff is expensive, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2132.0,"endTime":2137.16,"body":"that this stuff does not have a fast turnaround.  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2137.16,"endTime":2143.88,"body":"And we do get that many companies have tried "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2137.16,"endTime":2143.88,"body":"things that looked nice and flashy and looked  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2143.88,"endTime":2150.0,"body":"like they were going to be, the silver bullet to "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2143.88,"endTime":2150.0,"body":"solve the problem in a really short turnaround  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2150.0,"endTime":2156.04,"body":"and it didn't. And they think now the problem "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2150.0,"endTime":2156.04,"body":"can't be solved. But the problem is you can't  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2156.04,"endTime":2166.68,"body":"just not want this to be your problem. That can't "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2156.04,"endTime":2166.68,"body":"be your official position. This stuff you need to,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2166.68,"endTime":2171.52,"body":"one, you need to make sure that you understand "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2166.68,"endTime":2171.52,"body":"the problem. And two, you have to say, you know,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2171.52,"endTime":2178.0,"body":"solving this problem is going to be our normal for "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2171.52,"endTime":2178.0,"body":"the next two, three years, possibly, maybe more,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2178.0,"endTime":2183.84,"body":"depending on how deeply rooted it is. Right. "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2178.0,"endTime":2183.84,"body":"Like if you have no infrastructure, for example,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2183.84,"endTime":2187.88,"body":"one thing that, you know, we're seeing with "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2183.84,"endTime":2187.88,"body":"businesses that haven't, you know, haven't  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2187.88,"endTime":2194.76,"body":"had to or t haven't had a lot of turmoil again, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2187.88,"endTime":2194.76,"body":"any kind of the ebs and flows of the workforce,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2194.76,"endTime":2199.48,"body":"a lot of them don not have great communication "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2194.76,"endTime":2199.48,"body":"infrastructure with their employees. Like the  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2199.48,"endTime":2202.36,"body":"people that are on the front lines or people "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2199.48,"endTime":2202.36,"body":"that are kind like, you know, Odin Fields or  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2202.36,"endTime":2206.08,"body":"whatever like that they don't have a way to "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2202.36,"endTime":2206.08,"body":"communicate with them. So these infrastructural  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2206.08,"endTime":2214.4,"body":"pieces are absolutely void. They're not there. "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2206.08,"endTime":2214.4,"body":"And if those big pieces aren't put into place,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2214.4,"endTime":2219.28,"body":"then any effort you make isn't gonna work. So the "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2214.4,"endTime":2219.28,"body":"solutions are gonna take longer. Cause you like,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2219.28,"endTime":2224.92,"body":"you got toa build that foundation so before "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2219.28,"endTime":2224.92,"body":"you can actually address the actual problems.  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2224.92,"endTime":2231.04,"body":"And to be honest, what I want to say to "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2224.92,"endTime":2231.04,"body":"people is buckle up. This stuff isn’t,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2232.36,"endTime":2238.4,"body":"you're on a long journey and covering your ears "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2232.36,"endTime":2238.4,"body":"and closing your eyes and wishing this wasn't a  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2238.4,"endTime":2244.6,"body":"problem is only gonna make the problem get worse. "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2238.4,"endTime":2244.6,"body":"And it's something that we get, that you're tired,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2244.6,"endTime":2251.8,"body":"that there is s this kind of transformation "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2244.6,"endTime":2251.8,"body":"fatigue that you're feeling. But if you don't  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2251.8,"endTime":2260.52,"body":"try and transform your normal to be this is "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2251.8,"endTime":2260.52,"body":"what it is, then you're just going to end up  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2260.52,"endTime":2265.16,"body":"putting yourself a greater and greater risk. And "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2260.52,"endTime":2265.16,"body":"when you do decide to wake up, you're going to  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2265.16,"endTime":2271.12,"body":"see that you've wasted a lot of time, effort and "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2265.16,"endTime":2271.12,"body":"money and the problems are only getting bigger."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2271.12,"endTime":2277.68,"body":"And I mean, this is "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2271.12,"endTime":2277.68,"body":"obviously, this is a piece that I find  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2277.68,"endTime":2285.16,"body":"frustrating. but there's a reason why we "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2277.68,"endTime":2285.16,"body":"start our engagements with collecting,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2285.16,"endTime":2292.88,"body":"some data with an investigation. Because "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2285.16,"endTime":2292.88,"body":"you cannot create targeted strategic  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2292.88,"endTime":2299.88,"body":"initiatives if you don't actually understand "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2292.88,"endTime":2299.88,"body":"the realities that your workforce is facing,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2299.88,"endTime":2307.32,"body":"the realities of the environment that they work "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2299.88,"endTime":2307.32,"body":"in. Not merely what you say your culture is,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2307.32,"endTime":2315.32,"body":"but the experience that your employees have "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2307.32,"endTime":2315.32,"body":"day to day. those investigations, that data is  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2315.32,"endTime":2325.28,"body":"essential to crafting any type of intervention. "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2315.32,"endTime":2325.28,"body":"transformation, change in a positive way."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2325.28,"endTime":2331.12,"body":"Yeah, absolutely. All right, so let's "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2325.28,"endTime":2331.12,"body":"move on to the last one. And again, so the  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2331.12,"endTime":2336.48,"body":"first three we talked about the rollback of dei, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2331.12,"endTime":2336.48,"body":"the layoffs and the IT sector and kind of this,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2336.48,"endTime":2342.16,"body":"companies being tired of solving problems. Those "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2336.48,"endTime":2342.16,"body":"are things that are kind of like out there that is  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2342.16,"endTime":2348.08,"body":"just kind of like happening everywhere. This last "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2342.16,"endTime":2348.08,"body":"one is kind of one that I think we're seeing. And  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2348.08,"endTime":2352.64,"body":"we don't want to be, say that this is happening "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2348.08,"endTime":2352.64,"body":"everywhere because we're not 100% sure about  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2352.64,"endTime":2361.76,"body":"that. But what we are seeing is there is more and "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2352.64,"endTime":2361.76,"body":"more organizations that are falling into one of  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2361.76,"endTime":2366.2,"body":"the things that we call the five threatening "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2361.76,"endTime":2366.2,"body":"truths. And the threatening truth that we're  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2366.2,"endTime":2373.68,"body":"seeing probably was just rampant in 2024, was what "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2366.2,"endTime":2373.68,"body":"we call the action is reaction fallacy. And this  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2373.68,"endTime":2380.88,"body":"is when organizations think that the actions their "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2373.68,"endTime":2380.88,"body":"organization should be taking are about reacting  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2380.88,"endTime":2387.4,"body":"to things, always kind of, putting things into "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2380.88,"endTime":2387.4,"body":"place after the fact and never Actually being  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2387.4,"endTime":2393.48,"body":"proactive, only just responding to things as they "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2387.4,"endTime":2393.48,"body":"come. And that is what normal businesses are. And  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2393.48,"endTime":2404.0,"body":"they do. And that fallacy of thinking that your "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2393.48,"endTime":2404.0,"body":"actions should only really be reactions, kind of  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2404.0,"endTime":2409.28,"body":"one actually kind of is a root cause of some of "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2404.0,"endTime":2409.28,"body":"the other one, the rollback of dei, the layoffs,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2409.28,"endTime":2419.68,"body":"the, and the complex problems. But it is a mindset "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2409.28,"endTime":2419.68,"body":"that is so hard for organizations to ever get.  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2419.68,"endTime":2427.32,"body":"Sorry. It's difficult for the organizations to "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2419.68,"endTime":2427.32,"body":"start to actually fix things if that's the mindset  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2428.0,"endTime":2430.98,"body":"that they're in while these "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2428.0,"endTime":2430.98,"body":"problems are happening."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2430.98,"endTime":2441.4,"body":"Yeah. And this goes very like. We "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2430.98,"endTime":2441.4,"body":"see this happening in kind of within every  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2441.4,"endTime":2453.6,"body":"department within a business that we touch. "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2441.4,"endTime":2453.6,"body":"But where we see it a lot is in hr. We've  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2453.6,"endTime":2459.04,"body":"referenced it many times. We've talked about "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2453.6,"endTime":2459.04,"body":"the four faces of hr. but it's really that,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2459.04,"endTime":2466.72,"body":"that firefighter mentality where all you "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2459.04,"endTime":2466.72,"body":"really have the capacity for because the  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2466.72,"endTime":2476.12,"body":"business doesn't necessarily support progressive "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2466.72,"endTime":2476.12,"body":"HR practices. You're just responding to problems,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2476.12,"endTime":2482.56,"body":"to fires as they come up. And you spend your "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2476.12,"endTime":2482.56,"body":"day putting out three fires and by the end of  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2482.56,"endTime":2489.16,"body":"the day there's five more that have been created. "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2482.56,"endTime":2489.16,"body":"And it's exhausting and it creates a significant  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2489.16,"endTime":2496.08,"body":"amount of burnout and it causes many of the other "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2489.16,"endTime":2496.08,"body":"issues that we've talked about to become worse."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2496.08,"endTime":2500.0,"body":"Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you're right. "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2496.08,"endTime":2500.0,"body":"Going back to when we talked about what we  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2500.0,"endTime":2505.48,"body":"call the highly reactive department, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2500.0,"endTime":2505.48,"body":"which is what HR stands for. That is a,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2505.48,"endTime":2511.16,"body":"so funy. When we did that episode, we "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2505.48,"endTime":2511.16,"body":"talked about what is HR stand for. so  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2511.16,"endTime":2518.16,"body":"many HR professionals reached out to us and be "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2511.16,"endTime":2518.16,"body":"like, yeah, you nailed what my past job was like,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2518.16,"endTime":2521.68,"body":"or this sort of thing. I'm fortunate now "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2518.16,"endTime":2521.68,"body":"that I've kind of gone through and I'm now  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2522.4,"endTime":2525.76,"body":"at the humans required department. I love "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2522.4,"endTime":2525.76,"body":"my job, but I had to work through a number  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2525.76,"endTime":2533.92,"body":"of highly reactive this. But it is pervasive "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2525.76,"endTime":2533.92,"body":"out there that probably you. Many, many, many,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2533.92,"endTime":2541.48,"body":"many HR professionals work in a highly reactive "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2533.92,"endTime":2541.48,"body":"department. And it's again often in the work that  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2541.48,"endTime":2547.24,"body":"we do that tends to be the first department that "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2541.48,"endTime":2547.24,"body":"we really get a full view of. And then it's always  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2547.24,"endTime":2552.88,"body":"the case that when there's a highly reactive HR "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2547.24,"endTime":2552.88,"body":"department, everything else, finance, operations,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2553.52,"endTime":2557.84,"body":"everything else tends to also be highly reactive. "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2553.52,"endTime":2557.84,"body":"Just because it's rare that it's ever just like  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2557.84,"endTime":2567.12,"body":"one department. But this is why the fallacy is "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2557.84,"endTime":2567.12,"body":"so damaging is to most organizations and to the  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2567.12,"endTime":2572.58,"body":"leadership of most organizations, this isn't this "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2567.12,"endTime":2572.58,"body":"what business is supposed to be Isn't this normal?"},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2572.58,"endTime":2577.12,"body":"Isn't this just how HR operates? "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2572.58,"endTime":2577.12,"body":"Aren't they supposed to just respond to stuff?"},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2577.12,"endTime":2579.22,"body":"You're like, no it's not."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2579.22,"endTime":2582.16,"body":"That's not the only "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2579.22,"endTime":2582.16,"body":"function they serve. Yeah."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2582.16,"endTime":2586.68,"body":"And you know, and again it's "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2582.16,"endTime":2586.68,"body":"like the whole idea of the action is  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2586.68,"endTime":2589.0,"body":"reaction fallacy is really kind of characterized  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2589.0,"endTime":2596.74,"body":"by that people see reacting to problems "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2589.0,"endTime":2596.74,"body":"as a replacement for having a strategy."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2596.74,"endTime":2598.0,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2598.0,"endTime":2604.28,"body":"And that's the thing that we're just "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2598.0,"endTime":2604.28,"body":"like okay, so there is no real plan or the  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2604.28,"endTime":2611.32,"body":"plan that you have is so it is so generic and "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2604.28,"endTime":2611.32,"body":"unspecific and unmeasurable that it might as  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2611.32,"endTime":2616.2,"body":"well. It's not worth the paper that's written "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2611.32,"endTime":2616.2,"body":"on. But really kind of comes down to we'll just  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2616.2,"endTime":2620.68,"body":"figure stuff out as we go. We'll just put out "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2616.2,"endTime":2620.68,"body":"fires as we go. We're investing in fire hoses  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2620.68,"endTime":2626.2,"body":"rather than fire prevention. And just like man, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2620.68,"endTime":2626.2,"body":"that is such an expensive thing to constantly  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2626.2,"endTime":2633.72,"body":"do. And. And I think so that's kind of like "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2626.2,"endTime":2633.72,"body":"the summary is that it's a replacement for  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2633.72,"endTime":2641.54,"body":"strategy. But what it looks like tends to be "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2633.72,"endTime":2641.54,"body":"the chasing those flavor of the month ideas."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2641.54,"endTime":2650.12,"body":"Yeah. Yeah. And we see a lot of "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2641.54,"endTime":2650.12,"body":"this in I don't know that I could narrow it  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2650.12,"endTime":2659.44,"body":"down to any one particular department field "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2650.12,"endTime":2659.44,"body":"industry size of. We all do it right. Oh,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2659.44,"endTime":2667.12,"body":"shiny. let's play with the newest AI toy. Ooh, "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2659.44,"endTime":2667.12,"body":"shiny. We've got something else to look at that  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2667.12,"endTime":2678.44,"body":"catches our attention. bouncing around from "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2667.12,"endTime":2678.44,"body":"project to project, from product to product,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2678.44,"endTime":2691.36,"body":"from idea to idea, idea to idea. The problem "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2678.44,"endTime":2691.36,"body":"is people aren't in many when we are in that  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2691.36,"endTime":2696.24,"body":"mentality of the action is reaction or "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2691.36,"endTime":2696.24,"body":"chasing the flavor of the M month. We  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2696.24,"endTime":2706.72,"body":"never let projects have enough longevity to "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2696.24,"endTime":2706.72,"body":"m actually measure the improvements. Right,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2706.72,"endTime":2714.84,"body":"right. If you we these problems did not crop up "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2706.72,"endTime":2714.84,"body":"overnight. Whether we're talking about employee  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2714.84,"endTime":2724.08,"body":"attraction, retention, productivity, performance, "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2714.84,"endTime":2724.08,"body":"performance management, doesn't really matter. We  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2724.08,"endTime":2732.64,"body":"didn't get into the problem overnight. We can't "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2724.08,"endTime":2732.64,"body":"expect that we can drop a boxed product program  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2732.64,"endTime":2740.24,"body":"survey what have you in and suddenly all of "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2732.64,"endTime":2740.24,"body":"our problems are going to be fixed in a month."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2740.24,"endTime":2746.56,"body":"Yeah. And I mean I think part of the "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2740.24,"endTime":2746.56,"body":"flavor of the month chasing piece is there's  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2746.56,"endTime":2751.32,"body":"a bit of fear off missing out. Right. I mean like "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2746.56,"endTime":2751.32,"body":"oh well, we don't want to be left behind. So if we  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2751.32,"endTime":2755.8,"body":"commit to something for longer term and something "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2751.32,"endTime":2755.8,"body":"better comes along, then are we just working with  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2755.8,"endTime":2764.28,"body":"antiquated technology or antiquated tools? Well, I "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2755.8,"endTime":2764.28,"body":"mean Critical thinking while you're implementing a  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2764.28,"endTime":2768.56,"body":"strategy is always good. It's always good "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2764.28,"endTime":2768.56,"body":"to re-evaluate, always good to reflect,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2768.56,"endTime":2773.24,"body":"always good to kind of like you assess fit. "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2768.56,"endTime":2773.24,"body":"There's all kinds of methods that you can do.  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2773.24,"endTime":2778.6,"body":"You don't have to drop stuff and jump on the "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2773.24,"endTime":2778.6,"body":"new thing or turn on your blinders and ignore  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2778.6,"endTime":2783.48,"body":"what's happening in the world while you are laser "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2778.6,"endTime":2783.48,"body":"focused on this one plan that, you know, maybe,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2783.48,"endTime":2789.52,"body":"maybe needs to be re-evaluated. It's not all "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2783.48,"endTime":2789.52,"body":"or nothing. It's a matter of, you know, like,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2789.52,"endTime":2793.8,"body":"of going forward with intent. And I think "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2789.52,"endTime":2793.8,"body":"that's really kind of all it comes down to  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2793.8,"endTime":2798.92,"body":"if you're implementing strategy with intent. Part "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2793.8,"endTime":2798.92,"body":"of intent is to keep your finger on the pulse of  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2798.92,"endTime":2804.2,"body":"the environment that you're working in and all "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2798.92,"endTime":2804.2,"body":"the tools available to you. Just putting your  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2804.2,"endTime":2809.0,"body":"head down and focusing on one plan and seeing it "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2804.2,"endTime":2809.0,"body":"through regardless of what happens around you is  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2809.0,"endTime":2813.32,"body":"no better than just reacting to all the flavor "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2809.0,"endTime":2813.32,"body":"of the month and chasing all the new shiny. And  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2813.32,"endTime":2818.2,"body":"having the fear of missing out is if you don't "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2813.32,"endTime":2818.2,"body":"have intent, then you really don't have a plan."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2818.2,"endTime":2827.48,"body":"Yeah. Looking at everything that "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2818.2,"endTime":2827.48,"body":"we've talked about today in this episode,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2827.48,"endTime":2834.92,"body":"it all comes down to a lot of these problems "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2827.48,"endTime":2834.92,"body":"are caused because we didn't fully understand  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2834.92,"endTime":2841.0,"body":"the problem and we didn't create a plan "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2834.92,"endTime":2841.0,"body":"for how to address it based on the data,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2841.0,"endTime":2846.84,"body":"the understanding that we've generated. You can't "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2841.0,"endTime":2846.84,"body":"expect to have transformative change by accident."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2846.84,"endTime":2853.76,"body":"It's the. And whether that's the idea "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2846.84,"endTime":2853.76,"body":"of we spend more money on those machines that  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2853.76,"endTime":2858.44,"body":"electrocute our abs to, to get us all built "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2853.76,"endTime":2858.44,"body":"so we don't have to actually put the work  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2858.44,"endTime":2861.96,"body":"into it. If it's that kind of mentality "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2858.44,"endTime":2861.96,"body":"we want to pill to solve our problems  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2861.96,"endTime":2868.52,"body":"rather than proper diet. Again, there's the "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2861.96,"endTime":2868.52,"body":"quick. We're addicted to quick fixes. Yes."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2868.52,"endTime":2871.0,"body":"In every aspect of our lives,  "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2871.0,"endTime":2879.92,"body":"not just business. The problem is it has huge "},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2871.0,"endTime":2879.92,"body":"financial implications. In our organizations."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2879.92,"endTime":2886.08,"body":"Yeah, exactly. Because when you're in "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2879.92,"endTime":2886.08,"body":"a business, it's not just you, it's the people  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2886.08,"endTime":2892.64,"body":"that you employ, it's the businesses that rely on "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2886.08,"endTime":2892.64,"body":"the ecosystem that you're work in is weakened by.  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2895.44,"endTime":2902.84,"body":"By not taking the right steps to sustain success. "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2895.44,"endTime":2902.84,"body":"And it's one of those things where I really hope  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2902.84,"endTime":2911.32,"body":"as we move into 2025, that we can learn from "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2902.84,"endTime":2911.32,"body":"this and not be chasing the new and shiny,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2911.32,"endTime":2918.64,"body":"not be doing action with intent, not letting the "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2911.32,"endTime":2918.64,"body":"fatigue we have with solving problems be kind of  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2918.64,"endTime":2924.64,"body":"what holds us back from having any kind of success "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2918.64,"endTime":2924.64,"body":"being building good change management strategy so  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2924.64,"endTime":2930.12,"body":"we don't have to continue just laying people off "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2924.64,"endTime":2930.12,"body":"and hope that being small is the same as being  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2930.12,"endTime":2936.72,"body":"good at change and stop chasing this performative "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2930.12,"endTime":2936.72,"body":"solution to start actually having intent,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2937.44,"endTime":2942.52,"body":"and truly understanding the prerequisite "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2937.44,"endTime":2942.52,"body":"work that's required. So we have. We're  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2942.52,"endTime":2945.72,"body":"building off good plans from a good foundation,  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2945.72,"endTime":2953.1,"body":"not just buying snake oil and then "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2945.72,"endTime":2953.1,"body":"surprised that it's not curing our illness."},{"speaker":"[JAMES]","startTime":2953.1,"endTime":2955.3,"body":"Yeah, no, I think that's a good summary."},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2955.3,"endTime":2960.8,"body":"Yeah, I think so too. All right, "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2955.3,"endTime":2960.8,"body":"so that about does it for us. For a full  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2960.8,"endTime":2965.32,"body":"archive of the podcast and access the video "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2960.8,"endTime":2965.32,"body":"versions hosted on our YouTube channel, visit  "},{"speaker":"[COBY]","startTime":2967.44,"endTime":2969.16,"body":"Roman3.ca/podcast. Thanks for joining us."},{"speaker":"[ANNOUNCER]","startTime":2969.16,"endTime":2972.44,"body":"For more information on "},{"speaker":"[ANNOUNCER]","startTime":2969.16,"endTime":2972.44,"body":"topics like these, don't forget to  "},{"speaker":"[ANNOUNCER]","startTime":2972.44,"endTime":2978.28,"body":"Visit us at Roman3ca. Side effects of this "},{"speaker":"[ANNOUNCER]","startTime":2972.44,"endTime":2978.28,"body":"podcast may include improved retention,  "},{"speaker":"[ANNOUNCER]","startTime":2978.28,"endTime":2982.68,"body":"high product activity, increased market share, "},{"speaker":"[ANNOUNCER]","startTime":2978.28,"endTime":2982.68,"body":"employees breaking out in spontaneous dance,  "},{"speaker":"[ANNOUNCER]","startTime":2982.68,"endTime":2989.24,"body":"dry mouth, a version of the sound of James' "},{"speaker":"[ANNOUNCER]","startTime":2982.68,"endTime":2989.24,"body":"voice, desire to find a better podcast..."}]}