Diagnosing The Workplace: Not Just An HR Podcast
Join James and Coby from Roman 3 as they diagnose issues and prescribe solutions to today's most important workplace challenges.
Diagnosing The Workplace: Not Just An HR Podcast
Why Am I So Exhausted After Work Every Day?
This episode touches on the theme of Practical Psychology.
In this episode, we explore the Physical, Mental, and Emotional reasons why employees go home so exhausted after work. We dig into the psychology behind these factors and look at the obligation on organizations to support them.
Our prescription for this episode is for organizations and individuals to look at the agency they have when it comes to understanding and impacting employee well-being.
Past Episode Referenced:
S4 E2: Leadership Tips: Friend/Friendly, Respond/React, Emotional Load
Here are links to the two articles we talked about at the beginning. Thanks HR Digest and Feedspot!
To talk more about management training, reach out to us at info@roman3.ca or through our LinkedIn page at https://www.linkedin.com/company/roman3
Don't forget to sign up for our New Quarterly Newsletter that launched in the fall of 2024!
About Our Hosts!
James is an experienced business coach with a specialization in HR management and talent attraction and retention.
Coby is a skilled educator and has an extensive background in building workforce and organizational capacity.
For a little more on our ideas and concepts, check out our Knowledge Suite or our YouTube Channel, Solutions Explained by Roman 3.
Breaking down everyday workplace issues and diagnosing the hidden sickness, not just the obvious symptom. Our hosts, James and Coby.
COBY:Did we lose a patient?
JAMES:No, that's just my lunch.
COBY:Hey, thanks for joining us. I'm Coby and he's James. And before we get started, I think we should make some comments to say how much we appreciate you our listeners.
JAMES:Yeah, I mean, what's great is that we've act. We've been having more folks reaching out to us, uh, fairly regularly. You know, we've had several emails, texts, and even a thank you card. So that was actually kind of cool. , yeah, really appreciated it. , actually, in fact, this episode, what we are eventually going to talk about today is a request from, from, uh, one of our listeners who asked if we could actually dig in a bit deeper into the, , psychology behind the conversation that we had around emotional load. , so we really appreciate the feedback. Appreciate, , people. I just, I'm. I'm constantly amazed and appreciate the fact that people actually listen to us rant about different things.
COBY:Yeah. And I mean, like, because, like, you know, we're just kind of here, two guys just talking into our computers really, about, you know, about stuff, about kind of the work that we do and some of the stuff that we see. But it's also kind of cool. Like, I think it's also worth noticing that, you know, some of our listeners have shared, , kind of our podcast being recognized on like, some lists and through some like, , you know, like best podcast lists and you know, and even in kind of some articles, stuff like that One thing that was shared with me that I really want to like, say how, how like excited I am by. It was in a recent article in HR Digest. Uh, we again, our podcast was kind of ranked in some of the. The best podcasts of 2025. And this was a quote, , that HR Digest said our podcast, I quote, “this is one of the best HR management podcasts to listen to right now”. I was blown away by that. And again, so thank you so much to HR Digest. And another thing that's really cool is that, , so we routinely are on, , Feedspot’s Best Canadian workplace podcast lists of, you know, and, we were nber one in January of this yeahar. And they update that list on a regular basis, I think a couple times a month. And here we are, you know, we're recording this kind of like, you know.
JAMES:In October, and we're still nber one, baby.
COBY:Yeah. Nber one on the best Canadian podcast. So, you know, update at the end of September. So, like, again, thank you to all of our listeners. Thank you to those publications, , that kind of, uh, acknowledge us and everything like that. We just, like, we're just. We're just so hbled by it. , and again, please, to you listeners, please reach out to us. , you can message us right in the show notes. You can send us an email or email address in the show notes. We just love hearing from you. And again, we love when we can tailor our topics, our conversations around things that you legitimately want to hear more about. So, yeah, I think I just want to get that out. I just want to make sure that we took out time to say how much we appreciate you, the listener. , yeah. So, , why don't we dig into it and I'll jp into our question. Sure. So our question for today is, why am I so exhausted after work every day?
JAMES:Yeah. well, if you work with me, the answer is quite clear. I've been told that I am absolutely exhausting to be around.
COBY:Absolutely. Preach.
JAMES:Yeah. But aside from that, uh, the reality boils down to, you know, the physical, mental, and emotional load that's placed on us in our work. Right. And it's really those three areas that I want to focus our conversation around. , there. There are just so many factors that contribute to an individual's physical, mental, and emotional health that there's really no realistic way that we can cover all of those pieces in a single podcast. , so instead, what I'd like to do is really focus on the psychology around those three areas and give you a chance, COBY to kind of geek out on the psychology end of things. So.
COBY:Always happy to geek out.
JAMES:Get your geek on, my friend.
COBY:Yeah. So. And again, this was. So we did an episode, , a couple episodes ago, one of our first episode on leadership tips, where we talked about emotional load. And I tried to not geek out on the psychology side of that because.
JAMES:We had to reign him in in a little bit, which I. I could see it physically hurting him. It was awesome.
COBY:So, so this. So again, we said, you know, if anyone wants us to talk about this, we let us know. We had a couple people actually reach out and be like, yeah, could into that a little bit more. So I was very excited for this episode. , and we're going to get to talking about emotional health and emotional load in a bit, but I think that you're right. We need to just talk about. We're talking about exhaustion. Why are we exhausted after work? We should really kind of dig into physical, mental, and emotional Health kind of a little bit, and then we'll talk about more about emotional health, emotional load as we go. But I think in the context of work, I think that why people are exhausted at work, , the question is kind of who's ultimately responsible for the exhaustion? That I as an employee, or I as a, uh, you know, as a regular employee, I, as a manager, I, as a leader that I feel. And I think that it's something that is worth us kind of briefly talking a little bit about kind of what are obligations that companies have around physical, mental, emotional health, and what are just really supportive opportunities that they, that they have. , so let's just kind of touch on physical a little bit because again, we'll do physical and mental, and then we'll spend most of the time talking about emotional. When it comes to physical, I think that it's a matter of realizing that there are kind of like, there are like five really core things that we need to be doing to kind of take care of ourselves. , you know, and the idea of, like, you know, like, getting enough sleep and rest, , you know, taking our medications, , making sure that, you know, that we're prescribed properly and that we're using them properly, , eating proper food, you know, making sure that we're not just eating stuff that's high in sugar or high in calories, , that we're staying hydrated, that we're drinking enough, and then we're having enough, , hydration in our bodies and that we're getting enough exercise, moving our bodies enough that we're actually able to kind of be able to, again, have the physical energy that we need for our work. And I think that that's, you know, we talk about physical health, we're really talking about kind of those, really, about.
JAMES:Those five things, and those are really the pieces. So there's obviously the individual responsibilities, right? Like, there are things that I have to do in my own life that no employeahr, no business is going to do for me. Right. I need to take ownership over my own, uh, sleep patterns and, you know, if I require medications that I'm taking them regularly. You know, all those different pieces that you just kind of laid out. , so from an individual perspective, I think most people get that I, I think that we're not breaking new ground on the, uh, what the individual responsibilities are. , I mean, yeah, I know I need to get more sleep, drink more water, I relive off of coffee. , in order to get me through the day is kind of the, the, the mentality, though, So I think there's also the interplay between how our, you know, the, the cognitive and the emotional load kind of limit our ability to. Not ability, but certainly motivation. Certainly, you know, there's, there is an interplay between all three elements.
COBY:Absolutely. , yeah, but I mean, we're keeping kind of with, with the physical health side of it. , so kind of saying those five things and again, like, you know, we've got a little acronym that we heard called smile to help you remember what those five things are. S for sleep well, M for medications matter, I for intake nutrition, L for liquids, this for life Stay hydrated and E for exercise regularly. Right. So if you, you know, one of the five things, that's a little thing that we heard that would, that might be helpful. But the going back to obligations and supportive opportunities. Right. Yeah, again, those are, you're right. Those are the things that we personally need to be able to do. And there are obligations that our employeahrs, , our companies kind of have to help us with that. Part of that is when it comes to things like, , you know, nutrition, that they're paying us properly, that we can actually afford food that will sustain us. Right. There is a requirement that are fair that our pay be sufficient to allow us in order to be able to, , ingest foods that will be helpful, beneficial to us and not, you know, end up, you know, again, high salt or high sugar, those things that will hurt us. Right. And it's also the idea of making sure that we have enough time to physically rest between shifts that we can get enough sleep and ideally like, you know, and if there's opportunities for us to, you know, have, , you know, to not require our medications, be counter, you know, counterproductive to our work habits and you know, accommodate those kinds of things too. Right. And then, so that's kind of where the obligations live. But then the sport of opportunities around, you know, we can also do some extra things above those minimum opportunities or minimum obligations. We can talk about, you know, like health challenges. Like we, you know, organization that we worked with recently did a steps challenge to staff or they put out a challenge organization-wide wide and they had a leaderboard competition and prizes. Those types of encouraging healthier habits is something that you can do above and beyond the minimum obligations.
JAMES:I think on the obligations piece, what I also want to look at is, , if you have a physically demanding role, you also have an obligation to ensure that people have the right tools, the right structure, that it is set, that your operations are structured in a way that actually support people's physical health, operational requirements are important. And if you have a, if you are in an industry that is very, has a lot of physicality by nature, you know, there's a lot of lifting, bending, you know, whatever that physical, uh, nature is, there is an obligation. And this is something that we see the vast majority of employeahrs take very, very seriously is the making sure that it is that the physical requirements of the job are done safely, that people are supported, that they have the right tools and resources. And I mean a lot of that is because we have legislation to back these things up. Right. Same with rest periods. Right. We have legislation to back up the fact that, you know, there are a recognition that you can't push people beyond their limit, that people need a chance to rest not only during their shift, but also how frequently you can pull them back into the workplace. Right. And what a reasonable rest period is in between shifts. So we're, I don't want to make sure that we're not missing the obligation piece, but something else that I want to touch on that you mentioned. , and I don't want to take us off course because this could be a much larger conversation. But when we're talking about the sufficiency of wages in order to allow people to buy groceries which are stupidly expensive and getting worse, that sufficiency piece goes to a concept that we've talked about before around how expensive it is to pay poverty wages. Right. Uh, and you are many times creating your own problems by paying a wage that doesn't allow your workforce to properly support themselves and live because the stress that comes from it, the inability to purchase groceries to that will actually support their nutrition there. It is exceedingly expensive to pay to the business.
COBY:Mhm. JAMES: To pay poverty rate wages. Right. So going back to the question, why am I so exhausted after work every day? From a physical perspective, there is that piece of if the workplace is not allowing you to rest properly, it's not providing you with, with the support you need to be able to pay for medications to manage any kind of health issues, if it's blocking your ability to take in nutritious foods, if it's not allowing for, for enough breaks and scheduling for you to kind of stay hydrated and maintain your, you know, like, you know, the, the, your body's requirement for water intake and you're, you know, not able to have any kind of like, you know, ability to kind of improve your, your exercise so that you've got the physical strength in order to do the jobs that you do or like you said, or the physical side of it as far as tools instead of, you know, wearing you, uh, out physically. Those are the obligation pieces. If you're. If the obligations are. If your workplace is blocking your ability to do those five things, that's. That's uh, an obligation for. Is to fix those things and then encouraging healthier habits. Beyond those obligations are other opportunities that you can look at too. All right, so I want to move on because again, I think it is important. We have to make sure that we reference the three elements. But I do want to leave enough time to get too emotional. So let's kind of touch on mental. Now, mental health is kind of. We're getting into more of the psychology pieces too. But, one of the things that I want to talk a little bit about with mental health is again, obligations and supportive and supports. Obligations are really about, you know, like, if you're able to provide benefits to people that you're. You're kind of obligated to have the benefits that you're providing. Kind of help with mental health, providing, you know, SAP supports around. Around, mental wellness and uh, those types of things. Those are really kind of things that again, if you'll be able to provide those things that you're making sure you're prioritizing proper mental health care.
JAMES:I mean, you're not under a legal obligation to provide benefits. I mean, it's a great perk and a great thing to be able to do if you are. And I just want to read. Make sure that we're clear in what we're saying that if you are going to provide benefits, the point of providing them is it literally to address physical, emotional and mental health. Right. That's why we are, , put benefits packages in place. That's why they cover a range of different resources, uh, and supports. And mental health is more pro. I won't say it's more important than ever because it's always been important, but it's certainly more prominent, uh, and it certainly seems to become, , becoming more and more of a front-burner issue for many people.
COBY:Absolutely. So, And again, another obligation you have as an organization is to not overwork people and to burn them out. Right. So the idea of like chronic stress. So kind of this gets into some of the psychology around what's called cognitive labor. Cognitive labor is kind of the mental toll that it takes on us to anticipate needs, manage tasks, manage, , you know, kind of emotions of other people and ultimately manage our time. So Rather than just being in a physical exhaustion. Cognitive labor is about the mental exhaustion that happens with a lot of the stress and pressures that we put on us. This kind of mental load can lead to chronic stress, can lead to menta, exhaustion, it can lead to burnout and can really lower the mental well being when our workload is disproportionately high or the demands of pressure are disproportionately high. So there is an obligation to organizations to understand the, the impact of cognitive labor and to be able to actually try to mitigate that and not , and not burn people out. I think there's, I do feel there's an obligation to organizations to not burn people out and to be, and to be aware of the pressure they're putting on people.
JAMES:Yeah. I mean it, this idea that you have a, an unending labor pool that you can just burn through with no problems and that ain't the reality.
COBY:Yeah.
JAMES:Uh, and it hasn't been for some time and I don't see it changing in the short to medium term at the very least. But what's interesting, what came up for me as you were describing cognitive load, is how your manager can play such a significant part of that. Because could you, could you just go through. Because it was around how you manage these different responsibilities. Could you just touch on that for me?
COBY:Yeah, yeah. So, so it's. So cognitive labor is.
JAMES:Yeah.
COBY:It’s the idea. It's like the pressure or the, the, the, the work is required to anticipate needs, manage tasks, deal with all the, you know, those sort of things.
JAMES:That was the piece that came up, the anticipation. Because when you have. This is why management skills, this is why a, you know, having properly trained and supported support it managers is so critical. Because we've talked so many times about how the inconsistency in management expectations, the, this idea, , of having to walk on eggshells because you're, you're trying to anticipate what might uh, be coming down the pike from a manager or this day is going to be different from another day. And the stress that puts on you on top of all the other aspects, it seems to tie in really closely with this cognitive uh, labor. Uh, yeah.
COBY:Yeah. And one of the things that I think a really important thing people to realize too is that when it comes to cognitive labor, the heavier the cognitive labor that you carry and the more persistent that that labor is, it does increase the risks of depression and depressive symptoms. Right. The idea of, it's uh, that the overwhelming wave that can hit you from Excessive cognitive labor is one of those things that can activate kind of those depressive symptoms that can put, that make people kind of spiral and kind of getting into kind of the brain chemistry around cognitive labor is the idea of the chemicals that impact our stress response. So cortisol. Cortisol is the hormone that is our stress hormone and it's what prepares us for fight or flight. But the idea of consistently high cortisol levels, increased stress responses which have not just a mental , which affect our cognitive labor, our mental load starts to seep into the physical stress that starts to affect our physical health as well and which makes us increase our needs for medications or increases our needs for sleep, which makes sleep even harder and then create a snowballing effect. So there really is kind of, there's a lot of ties to the impact of cognitive labor and kind of depressive symptoms. But also kind of the, the, the more stress we feel, the higher cortisol levels, the more hurts impacting us physically as well as mentally.
JAMES:Yeah. And I think we need to. So tying this back to the workplace and why this actually matters from a business perspective is this bar none the biggest challenge that comes up every day when talking with businesses in. And it's not just us talking to businesses, it's any conversation. The ability to attract and retain the workforce that you need in order to be successful, in order to even just keep your operations running as they are, let alone the. To meet your goals around , internal external growth and scalability and reaching new markets or develop delivering on new products. And you can't do that if you are constantly running short staffed and you can't uh, deliver on any of those things if you are constantly putting this cognitive load on people. As I said, physical businesses are really trained well and understand the, the need to provide physical safety and for their employees and do it usually really will really quite well. But the cognitive aspect is something that we don't consider. And the way that your operations are structured and the way that your managers are trained or not trained and support it is going to have as big of an impact when those cracks start to show. M It can be just as damaging as a physical accident.
COBY:Right. One thing that's also important to mention when it comes to mental health is that , our biology, our childhood, our upbringing, all those kind of things, uh, a lot of outside the workplace daily factors impact m our mental health. And it's something that it's the idea of again but like part of which I mean it's funny you've railed against the phrase of leave your baggage, leave it at the door type of mentality you have. Hate that. And part of it is that businesses can't do that because of how complex mental health is. Right. So idea like, you know, like, so knowing that you're obligated as an organization to really do the things required so people can take care of themselves, but also not adding to the mental health through stacking cognitive labor on top of what people already are bringing to their job. So being aware of that, , because there is the reality of our workplaces impact our mental health. And we get to emotional health to talk about how there's a much bigger role to play around emotional health. But it is important to acknowledge that again, physical health is something that is. We have things that we can do to kind of keep our physical health going. And it's pretty simple. Mental health is so complex, and it is complex around our childhood impacts it. Our current relationships impacted our work. It does impact it. But it's not just. It's not isolated with work. So it's important to recognize that it's.
JAMES:Not a single thing it. And I mean, when we're talking about an obligation, uh, from a business perspective to support these. It's an obligation not to make things worse. Not to actively make things worse. Right.
COBY:And if it's my business, okay, so how do I, how do I not make it worse? Right.
JAMES:Yeah.
COBY:And I think coming back to the idea of cognitive labor.
JAMES:Right.
COBY:So one of the things that we talk about, we talk about like, you know, again, the impact that our managers have on our mental health is pretty significant. And going back to the specific things I listed in cognitive labor anticipating needs that you mentioned is a good example of, you know, what if you as a manager are, uh, cryptic or inconsistent or expect people to kind of crystal ball read your mind, you are unintentionally creating a massive cognitive labor onto your staff for no reason.
JAMES:And that's the problem is that again, I don't believe that businesses operate under a sinister mentality of I'm going to actively create problems for my employees. That doesn't happen despite what m. Your employees might actually think.
COBY:Right.
JAMES:However, the unintended consequences of not supporting people, of not training your managers, of not setting those expectations, and of not being consistent has a direct impact on these things. And you do have an obligation to not make. Not actively make people's lives worse.
COBY:Yeah, absolutely. So there are things. So I think if you are a manager or even if you're an employee, you're like, okay, So I am now aware of the cognitive labor concept.
JAMES:Mhm.
COBY:How do I help this? Well, part of it is again, understanding that cognitive labor is a work people put into trying to again, anticipate needs and manage tasks and deal with the added pressures of navigating relationships and people's needs and trying to figure all that out. One of the things that you can do is, is seek like concrete clarity, seek the idea of I don't want to read your mind. What you know, like I'll say this part but like, you know, I, I, I want to know, I want to know the cold hard facts. I want to know the this, the clear outcomes. I want, I don't want to have to constantly anticipate needs and do all these emotional do, these cognitive backflips to try to crystal ball read your mind when you could just be clear in communication. Right. So just being aware of little things that we can do to make the cognitive labor less can be ways that we can help ourselves and that we can help our teams.
JAMES:Yeah. And this is why it's important to sometimes to get outside help too, because you don't know what you don't know. And it's really, it takes to be that self reflective if you're not sure if you're , causing these problems. I mean again, it's, I don't believe that these are intentional behaviors. Right. So expecting somebody to be able to self identify those uh, behaviors that they don't even identify in the first place is a big ask. But this is where external help can make a huge difference. Leadership coaching. There are phenomenal leadership coaches who we've worked with who are wonderful and excel at what they do. , we are pretty good ourselves, not as leadership coaches, but you know, the management training side of things there. But there are lots of resources out there. It is on you to find the resources to help you identify these challenges. Right?
COBY:Absolutely. Yeah. So going back to again, the question, you know, of why am I so exhausted at work every day? Well, it comes to kind of the mental health side of it, the cognitive labor side. You're putting in a full time job up here in your head. If you have, if your job or your manager or your team or your employees require a lot of cognitive labor from you. And one thing that we should also talk about too is sometimes managers try their best, but they've got very needy teams that require them to kind of constantly juggle those types of things too. And that's, that's a fair point too. Right. The cognitive labor is Something that you, you have to find a way to try and reduce cognitive labor. Whether that's on, you know, you're reducing it for yourself, reducing it for your team, or you're working on both. But, but again, you're right. Figuring out for yourself may be a bit tough. Getting some help and some assistance with that could go a long way. But that's when it comes to mental health. I think the cognitive labor piece is why we go home exhausted every day.
JAMES:So is this part of the like. Is cognitive labor the kind of the crux of not being able to shut my brain off when I get home? Not being able to or not being able to like I can't sleep, I can't take my physical health because I can't sleep properly because I'm worried about what m. Is happening, what I'm going to be walking into the next day.
COBY:Yeah. Yeah, it is a lot of that, A lot of that stuff is a. When it has to really weigh in our mental health. It's it, it, it is that cognitive labor piece. It's all the work we're doing mentally to uh, try to anticipate, you know, manage, plan, organize, you know, de-stress.
JAMES:You really put in a full day of work physically and mentally in the workplace. And then if you've got this cognitive load, you're. You're really not ever disconnecting from work and you're not getting that any chance to really.
COBY:No. You're often putting in a full day to work when you get home. Plus your home requirements of managing disputing needs of your kids or your spouse or your parents or you know. So I mean it's just again it's. The workplace needs to know the obligations but not adding the stuff. Right. And that's. Yeah. So let's move on to just the emotional stuff because I want to make sure that we have enough time for this too. , just kind of recap. We talked about emotional load in episode. Our leadership tips episode. Like I mentioned before, , the idea of kind of it's emotional load is kind of the weight that we carry kind of , emotionally from the things that stress us out and from kind of the ability to again really kind of understand, you know, the interactions around people, the, the personal, , kind of conflicts and all those types of pieces. But really it's about kind of like it's about appraising stressors. So the theory that emotional load kind of comes from. So it's called the cognitive appraisal theory. And this is really about whether or not we See things that are stressors, so things that are again points of concern or potential , areas of concern or those kinds of things, whether we see them as a threat or as a manageable challenge. And that's really kind of what starts to impact the emotional load pieces. So the cognitive appraisal theory kind of suggests that emotions, stress and our responses to them are not just triggered by the events but by the interpretation we have of those events. So sometimes it's about reading the , like you know, it, it's about kind of reading the kind of the context or how people took that or sometimes it's a matter of the second guessing. Oh, that seemed fine in the moment, but then I overthink it afterwards. Sometimes there's. There, there's that side of it too. But it's the idea of. It's like is this situation which is largely, you know, you know, it's something that you might deal with on a, on a regular basis or, or a big thing. Is it considered a threat or is it a manageable challenge? But the idea of. It's about how we appraise these pieces which really kind of adds to the emotional, to our emotional load because we're having an emotional response to a situation. And it's really that idea of. It's about kind of like, you know, our. Like so that, so that the, the. One of the main theorists is , Lazarus and his, the way that he positions it in the cognitive appraisal theory is that our subjective assessment of a situation's significance to our well being, our ability to cope with it, that determines our emotional response. So the subjective assessment that we have is. And then we figured out what our emotional response will be based on how we perceive it.
JAMES:Okay, so one of the things, uh, so I'm trying to right now to, to get some clarity in my mind around where. Because cognitive labor seem, and emotional load seem to be very closely tied, interconnected and I'm, I'm trying to find a line that might not exist between the two.
COBY:Sure.
JAMES:, so with cognitive labor I, I kind of get, you know, from our conversation I get where that comes from. The anticipation, the mental health impacts, the, the we. Things that we are thinking about. So is it really with emotional load, is it more the emotional reaction to like the same type of events that , anticipation of uh, inconsistencies, the, the management piece. Is it that those same actions can contribute to our cognitive uh, labor as well as the emotional response that we have to. It is what adds to our emotional load is that the distinction or am I getting that wrong?
COBY:No, no, no, I, I think you're right. And again, I appreciate you seeing, you seeing kind of clarity on this. So. Yeah, the cognitive labor is more like. It's the work of the thinking. It's, it's almost like the. Just the amount of the planning, the.
JAMES:Amount of brain power that is required to put. Okay, yeah.
COBY:And then the emotional load is the, the uh, the weight that that carries kind of to your emotional reactions of things. Right. So it's almost like the cognitive labor is a bit subjective or. Sorry, sorry. It's a bit objective. It's a bit of like, you know, it's just. It's like lists and plans and this and that. How am I going to solve this problem? I respond to that email and those types of kind of things, you know, that we kind of like, you know, the, the mental work that we do where emotional load is, how that affects us. This, this individual person, how this person triggers our emotional pieces, those.
JAMES:Okay, okay. So, yeah, I mean I'm asking the question because this is squarely in your domain and your expertise more so than mine. , so one of the ways what came up for me as you're describing that is, you know, have conversations that I've had with employees at different, , in different roles. , you know, I can think of an example of an employee who was very much burnt out, , and responded very like a raw nerve. It responded emotionally to , everything. And you know, the, the physicality of the work and the cognitive load that and the stress of the , workplace is what kind of caused this emotional reaction. But that it caused the. It kind of built up to a point where their emotional load became a breaking point and they. Everything. When they hit that breaking point with their emotional load, every response to every interaction reaction, , problem that came up, the first response was emotional because that's where their head was at. That's where everything like. And they very much recognized it in themselves. But because they were fully immersed in this and still continue to be immersed in it, they didn't have the emotional regulation. They weren't able to regulate their emotional emotions in the workplace in a professional manner. , and so like it all stemmed like it kind of started with the physical aspect, uh, and workload aspect moved to the cognitive, , piece of, you know, the stress that came with the increased, uh, workload. The stress that came from, you know, being the only senior, uh, uh, you know, the only team member who lasted more than a yeahar or two. You know, these stressors eventually built up the emotional load to a point where they just, they could not respond without that emotional aspect. So that, that to me is kind of that burnout example. Seems to be a very clear progression of how this can just build until somebody snaps.
COBY:Yeah, well, I mean, like. So I think another example is I remember I had a conversation a little while ago, , in one of our management training sessions with, , with. With a manager who was talking about they've got an employee who, you know, it's like part of their job is to kind of like dig up information for the different, , the different departments. And , this, this manager was saying how, how exhausted they are with this. With this one employee whose job it is to do that because they'll call the manager up and just, and just be like, you know, like, like this one manager is like, you know, you're asking this kind of out of nowhere and kind of wants, you know, like all this stuff done, you know, a moment's notice and this and this and this, this and this. And the manager's like, well, hold on, don't you remember about two weeks ago we talked about this was going to be something that we were going to do together and then we were going to work towards it. And they had realistic timelines and this was. This, this request was more of a, you know, simple reminding ask of. Of this.
JAMES:Right, right.
COBY:And they're like. And the manager said to the employee, don't you remember that? And they were like, oh, right, okay. Yeah. And then is he like, you know, is the work too much or she's like, no, no, no, it's just. I just. Okay, now that I, now that I know that, then. Okay, cool. And what happened there was the employee had an emotional reaction, I'm assing to this, this other manager's request likely because there's a bit of a, , an emotional history between them. Yeah. So they had, they had, they had a major. They had a huge emotional load attached to this relationship with. Whereas the cognitive labor that was required of them was quite. Was within normal scope.
JAMES:So you said something there that I want to touch on. Uh, the emotional load was tied to this relationship or this person. So the emotional load, it's. It's not a single thing. Right. It can be situational, it can be, uh, the emotions that are. Yeah, I mean, that makes sense as I'm talking it out, because again, going.
COBY:Back to the cognitive appraisal theory, it's about. It stems from how we appraise stressors. So request. So for this employee getting requests from this, from this other manager for something that required not a significant cognitive labor. But because this employee , kind of , appraised this manager as a threat, they had a highly emotional loaded reaction to something that required not a significant amount of cognitive labor.
JAMES:Right. Whereas their emotional load was built over time because of their interactions, because of misunderstandings, because of all of these different pieces.
COBY:And to the manager that was, that was telling me the story there. One of the things they said was, they said what's funny was if that same again request had come from this other manager, the employee wouldn't phase them at all. They would just laughfully said sure. And they, it would have been, it would have been nothing but because of the, of the emotional load that is in that relationship, that stressor. Right. How they appraise that person. And that's what caused a higher emotional load.
JAMES:So, and this may be taking us too far off course or may not be an appropriate question for this conversation, but how the connection or the relationship between emotional load and emotional trauma. Like we've talked about tramua infused workplaces previously and we've talked about how, you know, these historical events, , you know, whether it's , you know, people feeling betrayed by the organization or you know, these interpersonal relationships can over time build. So is there a distinction there? Is it a difference without a distinction? Is there a clear distinction between those two or no.
COBY:So I think that, so the traa I think is how we'd label the, the uh, appraisal of that stress. Okay, right.
JAMES:Yeah.
COBY:The idea of, you know, so again, I know, I know. , another organization, the management team had a very authoritarian, uh, CEO. And so I remember, remember working with them. Everything was like, was hitting that raw nerve that you mentioned in your example. Simple requests were seen as directives of, you know, like, change course immediately based on this offhand comment that I made. So everything was so, so, so there's a lot of traa with sharing a new idea or a new thinking. Caused major trauma with this, with this team. Because he was always just so like, you know, because kind of how their past was this tainted how they appraise the new stressors.
JAMES:Okay, yeah.
COBY:So our trauma impacts that appraisal process that we have to figure out if there are threats or manageable challenges. It, puts, it overweighs things to be more threatening than actually would be intended. So the emotional load is actually kind of like a s. So your your total emotional load is almost different than your individual emotional load and your total emotional lo. Just that all the little loads that you carry with interactions with, with your triggers, with your traas stack up and then there's the total that, that you're carrying. So one of the things we mentioned in the last episode or we talked about this in the leadership episode, was I said the best way to figure out how to manage your emotional load is to start to measure what sets you off and gives you an emotional response, what triggers that cortisol response where you're in fight or flight. And then to try, is it people, is it times, is it areas of your work and try and track what is the emotional triggers that you're getting. So again, how are you appraising these stressors or these incidences as threats or something totally manageable? And if you can gauge that, you'll know you have a better idea about your emotional load so that you can actually start to say, okay, objectively, are these actual threats or am I kind of like, you know, overweighing? Is my traa from past experiences tainting this appraisal I have of the stress or whatever it is. But that tracking piece is a great way to get started trying to reduce or better understand your emotional load.
JAMES:So big surprise here is that one of the things that you can do to begin to remedy this is to start diagnosing not the symptom but the sickness.
COBY:Absolutely. Yeahs.
JAMES:Wow. Shocker.
COBY:I know.
JAMES:It's not on brand at all.
COBY:Yeah. So, , so, so, so again there is like, again so with all of these things physical, mental, emotional, there's a lot of like legitimate, you know, actual things. There are obligations that organizations can try and do and there are supportive things that they can play. And when it comes to the emotional, the emotional side of it, there are so many more obligations that companies have. Again, uh, kind of going back to similar to the mental health. It's about not making things worse, but it's. As managers, we have to understand the emotional load that our employees carry and better understand how we can help them, navigate them. We can't fix them. But one thing we have to try and do, all, actually all employees, regardless if you're a management leadership or not, you need to understand your emotional load. Because your emotional load is what is probably one of the biggest reasons why you're going home tired every day.
JAMES:Yeah. And what's, what's incredibly important for managers is in understanding these different components is that it allows you to approach the, the, the actions that you are seeing, that the problematic behaviors that you're seeing, the emotional disproportionate, emotional respons a simple request or a directive, or like, the behaviors that might touch into like the performance management system are coming from somewheres. Right? And if you understand how emotional load, cognitive labor and physical health contribute along the way in each of those areas, it allows you to just like we've been joking, you know, you have to diagnose what's behind the scenes. The same is true when you're entering these conversations with your employees. And if you can start to identify that these behaviors that are problematic are actually stemming from a person's emotional load or they're actually stemming from a person's cognitive labor, or like there's, there are root causes to them, then we can start to put strategies in place that will actually make a difference. Right? You're not going to make a difference just slapping a band aid over an amputated arm. That doesn't do much. Right. If we can actually get to the root cause of the issue or even start to peel back, , the layers. Because this is complex and messy. But, and you, you're, you can't do it all. You are not, you don't have to do it all, but you do have an obligation to try to support your employees in the best way you that you know how. And now that you know more, you can do more.
COBY:Honestly, dude, that was a terrific summary.
JAMES:I am fantastic, actually.
COBY:No, I was more shocked at how good the summary. Oh no, that's a great. No, that's a great summary. And again. And a good. And again. Just tying everything back to the idea that this is why I go home exhausted every day after work is because of the things you just talked about. Because of the things that kind of pull on my physical health, the cognitive labor that I'm carrying and the emotional load of how I deal with different interactions with different people to different stressors. And you're right, understanding it is the first step towards improving it. So now that you have more, maybe some clarity around it, maybe you can start to again track it or maybe you can start to, , actually see some beneficial progression to start to go home with some more energy.
JAMES:Mhm.
COBY:All right, cool. So that about does it for us. For a full archive of our podcast and access to the video versions hosted on our YouTube channel, visit Roman3.ca/podcast. Thanks for joining us.
ANNOUNCER:For more information on topics like these, don't forget to visit us at Roman3.ca. Side effects of this podcast may include improved retention, high productivity, increased market share, employees breaking out in spontaneous dance, dry mouth, aversion to the sound of James’ voice, desire to find a better podcast…
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