93 Remote teams, digital nomads and caring cultures with Jean Larkin

Welcome to The Knowing Self Knowing Others Podcast with your host, Nia Thomas. In today's episode, we're thrilled to be joined by Jean Larkin, an expert in leadership development and employee engagement, and cofounder of Octopy. 

Jean Larkin, originally from the United States, has spent the past decade in Europe exploring the intricacies of leadership and management. Her career began with a diverse array of experiences, where she observed many well-meaning individuals struggling to make a meaningful impact as leaders, often resorting to replicating ineffective management techniques. Driven by intense curiosity, Jean embarked on an in-depth exploration of leadership strategies, seeking more effective approaches. This quest led her to meet Matt, and together they envisioned a new path for impactful leadership, ultimately co-founding Octopy, a venture aimed at revolutionizing management practices.

Jean shares her experiences navigating the complexities of today's competitive job market and how she helps leaders foster human-focused workplaces where engagement flourishes and growth is sustainable. Tune in as Jean delves into her own career journey, her transition from The US to Europe, and her innovative approach to leadership that emphasizes curiosity, self-awareness, and collaborative development. Whether you're a leader struggling with engagement strategies or a curious learner, Jean's insights promise to create more fulfilled and effective teams in the modern workforce. Join us as we explore how self-awareness and a human-centered approach can transform leadership styles and work environments.

Check out Octopy here

Transcript

Nia Thomas [00:00:04]:
Hello and welcome to the Knowing Self.

Nia Thomas [00:00:06]:
Knowing Others podcast where we discuss self aware leadership with thinkers from around the globe. I'm your host Nia Thomas. Join me as we talk to today's guest.

Nia Thomas [00:00:16]:
I'm thrilled to welcome Jean Larkin to the show today. She is an expert in leadership development and employee engagement and co founder of Octopi. Now you may remember Matt Dunsmore who joined me on the show a few episodes ago. We. Well Matt is Jean's co founder. Jean has dedicated her career to helping leaders navigate the complexities of today's fast paced and competitive job market. With turnover rates on the rise and employee expectations higher than ever, her mission is to help businesses not just survive but thrive by creating human focused workplaces where engagement flourishes and growth is sustainable. Through her work at Octopi, Jean has guided countless leaders to build cohesive, high performing teams that deliver results.

Nia Thomas [00:01:04]:
So if you're struggling with generic engagement strategies or ineffective leadership workshops or uninspiring team building exercises, then this episode is for you. Jean's innovative approach really cuts through the noise to help leaders foster a culture of growth to boost morale and transform their leadership approach. Jean, it's lovely to have you here.

Jean Larkin [00:01:26]:
Thank you so much Nia. I really appreciate the thoughtful intro.

Nia Thomas [00:01:30]:
So tell us a little bit about yourself and your career journey.

Jean Larkin [00:01:34]:
That's a great question. So I'm originally from the US. I have been in Europe for about 10 years now. I, like a lot of people studied one thing was curious, kind of meandered through different experiences earlier in my career and what I saw was a lot of well intentioned people really struggling to have thoughtful and meaningful impact as a leader. Right. Like thriving as an IC but struggling when they got to management or really just kind of copying pasting things they had seen and the ramifications of that. And I'm intensely curious and so I started to kind of dive and explore and read everything I could and figure out if there's a better way. And I met Matt along that journey and we kind of started dreaming up what that might look like and that led me to co found Optipy within.

Nia Thomas [00:02:22]:
Amazing. Now you said you've been in Europe, tell us about that. How was that transition from the US to Europe and how did that really help you get to know yourself better?

Jean Larkin [00:02:33]:
Yeah, so I'm the youngest of nine kids, grew up in a big family, very competitive, a lot of similarities, a lot of differences and I had kind of had a clear path. I knew what I wanted to do was going to be this specific thing. But I also always liked a challenge. And I had a teacher tell me that you shouldn't really study abroad for a year based on what you're studying. You should do this, that and the other thing. And I thought, well, I want to be different. So I added a major and studied abroad in Spain my junior year of school. Two different cities, two different programs, traveled through the middle and everything changed.

Jean Larkin [00:03:06]:
That kind of crystal clear future I saw for myself disappeared. It took me a while to admit it to myself and even to my family. I said to them, oh, I'm just going to go to Spain for a little while. I'll become fluent in Spanish and I'll go back on my regular planned track. But the truth was, it had caught me. I had never been in a place that was quite like Spain. Culturally, they warn us students who are going to study abroad about culture shock, but I had more of the reverse culture shock of, wow, this feels right. And when I went back to the States, I was like, huh, this feels like it's missing.

Jean Larkin [00:03:39]:
And so I looked for a way to get back to Spain. And I think that having everything be different, right? Different culture, different continent, different language, you better understand yourself because there is no normal, there's no expectation, there's no well, this is how everyone else does it. And so you really have the space in the container to get to know who you really are, who you are in different contexts with the challenges and build your own path, which I really loved.

Nia Thomas [00:04:06]:
That's interesting. I lived in Japan for the third year of my university degree. And that self reliance that you have to develop, it's something that you quickly learn, that you need, but actually it does help you work out who you are, what you want to do, what you don't want to do, most definitely. So how do you now work? Because you work hybrid, you work across the globe, you work in different places. But if Spain is home, how do you then translate that into a global workforce, a global company and all the things that you do with leaders?

Jean Larkin [00:04:44]:
So for me, a distributed team is a baseline necessity for the work that I do. I have been lucky enough to work on teams and lead teams that are multinational, that are across the Americas, Europe, Asia, et cetera, and really have learned to leverage the power of remote work, asynchronous work, right? Different platforms like this, to talk to people. And then the reality is most of the work that Matt and I do, we have to, you know, separate over eight hours. He's in Colorado most of the time and I am in Spain. Of course I come to the States so we can do some work together. He's also come to Europe, so there is a little bit of that movement internally as a company. And then as well we travel to events. So, you know, for example, we have a workshop coming up that is going to be in Colorado or Houston, et cetera, and we will go on site for those.

Jean Larkin [00:05:27]:
But I find that the fact that I've had so much experience in multiple countries and with remote teams allows us to really provide the same level of high quality event fully, virtually. So we also offer that option to be able to work with leaders regardless of where they are and without having to fly to each other. Which is a really great way to.

Nia Thomas [00:05:45]:
Get started thinking about that balance between your love for remote work and that need for human connection. How do you stay really attuned to your emotional well being or emotional intelligence so that you can really ensure that you adjust your work life and that you're responding to the people that are on your courses and on your learning and are part of your organization?

Jean Larkin [00:06:12]:
So for me, the journey started well over a decade ago. I got into yoga initially as a physical education requirement. And I initially, you know, brought my little competitive mind, my want to do a handstand kind of attitude to it. But over the years it really transformed my mindsets around balance, around growth, around wellness. And over the years that has really been the core piece of my internal well being and how I take care of myself. And then additionally, I find that as humans we need connection. No one who's pro remote work is saying, let's not ever see each other in person. It's just that work can be done remotely.

Jean Larkin [00:06:51]:
And so for me it's about having that human connection, whatever that is for you in person as well. So for me it is an in person yoga studio. I often find one when I go someplace and I'm working. You know, I was in Bali working a few months ago and I found a studio there to go. And so blending the ability to have those in person community moments, that interactive exchange that just feels different when we're together in person. And then as well having a really robust understanding of the technologies involved to facilitate good collaboration over distance as well.

Nia Thomas [00:07:25]:
Tell us your thoughts about the organisations that are now putting in place these return to work mandates. You're right. We have all this technology, we are learning to communicate. You and I have a lot of seed between us, yet we're having a really good conversation. How are we adapting to that? How can we have those conversations with people who say you have to be in the office. We only believe you're working if we can see you in the office. How do we even start to have the conversations with those people who have those very strong beliefs about presenteeism?

Jean Larkin [00:08:01]:
Yeah, for me it always comes down to curiosity. So why do we need to be in the office? Sometimes it's something very simple and logistic or HR or because we have another two years in our office lease and we have to use it. And if that's the case, then I say share that information, be transparent, be honest about what it is. And then beyond the curiosity of like, okay, so what's really underneath this? I do think you're very right that for a lot of people they've only ever seen management that way. They don't have the training or the understanding of how to directly translate or be flexible enough to adapt to remote or entirely hybrid of some. Well, either entirely remote or hybrid work options. And that's not new for remote work. I mean, if we think about the evolution of the workplace over the last 50 years from cubicles to open office, to lots of distractions, to more zen space spaces, to the soundtracks we play, to co working spaces, I mean, we have changed what our workplace looks like for a very long time.

Jean Larkin [00:08:59]:
And during each of those changes we've had to learn how to manage in the new circumstance, the new setting. But I think it gets back to what I said at the beginning. You might be a very talented IC without the proper training. Right. Without the proper professional development, you might struggle to manage. And just because you are a very successful manager in person, if you don't have the right training, you're going to struggle managing a fully remote team or a hybrid team. And so I do think whatever we decide it needs to be values aligned, it should absolutely be influenced by our employees if we're not talking to them or doing ourselves a disservice. And then ultimately we need to continue to train and invest in professional development and how to make the best of whatever environment we're choosing.

Jean Larkin [00:09:43]:
Because I do wholeheartedly believe we can build deeply collaborative, well connected environments that are remote, where we do have a strong relationship, but it takes a different skill set and intentionality when we do it virtually than it did in the office.

Nia Thomas [00:09:58]:
Yeah, I think that's right. You talk about yourself as a digital nomad and you've also talked about the fact that you move from America to Spain. How have those things really shaped your leadership style, style and I suppose your self awareness and how you guide others.

Jean Larkin [00:10:17]:
Yeah, you know, for me, having the space to see other ways, I think people undervalue this little fact about travel. Simply witnessing the existence of a different way of doing something opens your mind up to that across the board. Right. When I studied abroad, for example, I saw very different ways of teaching I had never seen before. I saw different ways of grading and I had, you know, in my mind it wasn't just, oh, this is another way, it's there's many ways. And so when I turned around and I did teach for a while, I didn't have just one assumed default that I continued. I explored what options were out there and picked the one that was best aligned. So I think for me, having traveled to lots of continents, met lots of workers from different countries, different size companies, right.

Jean Larkin [00:11:07]:
Whether they're solopreneurs, whether they run small agencies, whether they're from giant at companies like Google, and hearing kind of what their experiences are, having those interactions with people, it helps me realize just how big our toolbox really is and help leaders stand back from like, maybe this is the slice that they can see. And let's zoom out and think, let's pull from the whole toolbox. Let's not just default to this because this is how it's always done. My background is San Francisco, so we have to do it this way. No, we don't. Maybe nine out of our 10 competitors do, but doesn't mean we have to. Right. It gives us space to kind of get curious and be intentional and really make values guided decisions rather than default to what we think is normal.

Nia Thomas [00:11:51]:
I think I was listening to possibly a director of education from one of the Scandinavian countries and he was really advocating for young people to take that gap year and to travel so that they could see different parts of the world, experience different cultures, different ways of doing things. Which is exactly what you're saying. So is that something that you advocate for leaders, is giving them the opportunity to go to visit other countries, see how other people do things, just as a learning opportunity.

Jean Larkin [00:12:19]:
As a lifelong learner and a former teacher and somebody who loved to study abroad, I think especially in the educational years of our lives, traveling abroad is deeply impactful in more ways than we often realize in the moments. And then ultimately for leaders, at the end of the day, we're adults. I think sometimes I see these policies and it's like this is more rigid than how principals of elementary schools or primary schools run things. I think we need to remember that these are adults. And so while for me, I may love to work From Bali. I know my sister would not. And so there's not one right path, I think once we become adults. But I do think making sure there's options and you have that flexibility for your employees is essential to keeping them happy, engaged and really interactive and proud to be part of your company.

Jean Larkin [00:13:05]:
I think when we start mandating, oh, you have to do this or we're going to pull you all back and we start taking away too much of their autonomy, even the most formally loyal employees will start to look elsewhere.

Nia Thomas [00:13:17]:
Yeah, I think that's a challenge that I don't think all of the organizations that are calling people back have really grasped yet, that people will simply choose with their feet.

Jean Larkin [00:13:27]:
Yeah. And I have a lot of people in my network that are fully remote companies. And I can tell you over the last six months especially, but as we see the rtos or the return to offices be published, we are seeing highly talented long term employees of these companies actively looking for new work. And they're very simple. My company has an RTO and I do not want to go back to the office. And that is the only reason they're looking for new roles. And they will maybe not find one quicker than the mandated return to office date, but they will find one and they will leave. And so it may take a little while, there may be a lag, but I do think there is going to be an exodus from those companies that will maybe be the learning they need before they adopt a more flexible policy that invites, you know, that long term relationship with their employees.

Nia Thomas [00:14:18]:
Yeah. And I think that the loss of cognitive diversity, it may take a little while to trickle through to the organization, but I think it will be real because I think people will be of a particular type of person who wants to be in an organization five days a week next to other human beings and need that kind of connection. And I worry about what that means for organizations. I'm interested to know more about your thoughts on remote work on people's sense of connection and loneliness. Because I know that the outgoing Surgeon General Vivek Murthy has talked a lot about loneliness. What are your sense of how that is working in terms of if people are fully remote, how are they ensuring that they do not fall into that trap of becoming quite lonely and isolated?

Jean Larkin [00:15:08]:
Yeah, that's a really important question. The loneliness epidemic cannot be understated in importance, unfortunately. When he first published his findings on the loneliness epidemic in the United States, we were maybe a little hopeful that things would change. And his parting prescription me was very clear that he doesn't think we've made the changes necessary. And I think if, if you take the time to read it, which I highly recommend going through, it's. It's an easy, delightful read and I think it has some great nuggets in there. What we're realizing, it's not really about remote work or not. If you look at the demographics that most significantly shift whether or not someone is, you know, feeling extremely lonely, whether someone's feeling isolated and disconnected, it's not even from their colleagues.

Jean Larkin [00:15:50]:
It's not mostly impacted by remote work or not. It's impacted by the quality of their management. It's impacted whether or not they've had meaningful feedback in the last week. It's impacted on whether or not they feel that they have a friend at work. It's impacted by their age, where they live, and a lot of other factors. And I think why it's easy to say, oh well, if you work remotely from home and, you know, you're in a silent office, you're isolated, and that must be it. I think a lot of people have looked at remote work and then the loneliness epidemic. I was like, oh, they're directly related.

Jean Larkin [00:16:22]:
And I don't think I have yet to see any indication that that is the reason or the direct correlation. I have remote working friends who are some of the most deeply embedded in their communities, whether it's traveling nomads or in a local spot, who are deeply embedded in their communities. It is simply that they like the freedom to, you know, commute less or they like the silence of an office to get more focus, work done. You know, you mentioned cognitive diversity. Whether we get to the place or not that I dream of, in which we realize there is not one normal brain and then everyone else is neurodivergent, but we're all just very different humans with different brains. You know, we have to accept the reality that for some of us, once we got to work from the home office, without the constant distractions, without the noises and all the other things, we found we were far more productive, we were far happier. And the idea of going back is a lot harder. And so I think you're dead right.

Jean Larkin [00:17:14]:
I think if we over index to in person work, it's not going to allow for that diversity of perspective of that diversity of type of human personality, different strengths and gifts, right, that they bring to a company to be at a company and thrive. I had two major hip surgeries in 2023 and I couldn't stand or walk correctly for over two years. If I had had an in person job or if I had a company that had an rto, I would have had to quit. I was incapable of physically getting to an office and sitting there for eight hours a day. But I was very capable of getting great work done. And having the ability to do great work, even when I was in bed or in between physical therapy sessions was essential for my well being and my emotional well being to have that ability to work. And so I think it's very easy to forget these examples when people talk about RTOs, but for millions and millions of people globally, whether they're caring for children, elderly, parents, whether they have a disability that's long term or short term, remote and flexible work, give them and empower them to be active participants in our economy and in our world in a way that they won't have if we turn our backs on remote work.

Nia Thomas [00:18:27]:
I so agree. If we think about the leaders that you work with, you mentioned earlier that some people are not quite clear of the skills that they need to develop to really support remote working or hybrid working. What are some common mistakes that leaders make when they're trying to improve employee engagement? And really what can they do to avoid that?

Jean Larkin [00:18:52]:
I think what I have seen is two kind of main categories of problems. One is that it's seen as like a moral failing of employees that they just need, you know, to kind of light a fire underneath them or you know, do the generalization of like, oh, these insert group here, often Gen Z or often, you know, a different group than the person leading is just doesn't want to work or they just, you know, they don't care enough. And so their strategies tend to be influenced at trying to have behavior modifications for their personal end goals which will not work. And then the other one I see happen is kind of generic, one size fits all. Still leaning too heavily on like this idea of perks. Oh, we'll send you a Kindle, we'll mail you snacks on your birthday or these kinds of things, and there's nothing wrong with those things, but we know what increases employee engagement and that's not it. And so I think ultimately what's getting in your way is the idea that it should be easy, there should be one size fits all. It's up to the employees to change their attitude.

Jean Larkin [00:19:53]:
I think these are the three biggest blockers that I'm seeing right now. And as far as how to address that, I think you have to talk to your team. You can't provide a meaningful employee engagement strategy that isn't informed by your employees, if you don't know what their needs are or their complaints are, where they love and thrive in their daily and weekly interactions with the company versus what drives them crazy and drains them and frustrates them, then there's no way that you can have a strategy that's going to reach more of your team. So I think the first step is getting to know your people.

Nia Thomas [00:20:24]:
As part of getting to know your people, I think you also need to get to know yourself to be able to develop those really positive relationships. If you think about self awareness, what skills do you think that leaders need to develop to really inspire and engage their colleagues to really help organisations thrive?

Jean Larkin [00:20:44]:
Yeah. So I think as leaders we have to be the catalyst, right. We need to be able to be the change we wish to see, which often looks like modeling. So you know, right now I just was finishing earlier this morning building a workshop around cultivating a culture of ownership and the truth is like the work always starts with you. So if I want an employee on my team to better respond to a hard feedback conversation and need for accountability, I have to be willing to raise my hand and say and this is my part and let it and empower it to be in a bi directional conversation. I know that I wasn't clear enough about some of the specs. I could have done this other thing to set you better success or I fully appreciate that we had a few extra asks thrown on our team this week that kind of adjusted our timings and I appreciate all of this. What I also see is this, what am I missing? Help me fill in the gap.

Jean Larkin [00:21:36]:
Do you see something else that I could do better to set you up for success in the future? If I'm willing to model accountability, then it's easier and more, more manageable for your team to do it as well. But I find the problem often right is like I want this from you, but you don't need to expect that from me. I want you to be held accountable. But don't call me out for not doing my part. I think that hypocrisy will always lead to shutting down the conversation instead of empowering a culture in which we can learn and be better together.

Nia Thomas [00:22:11]:
I developed a self aware leadership campus and the seventh direction is behavior, which is about behavior model and the number of conversations that I have with people about the fact that the leader has to go first. You have to model the the behaviour you want to see and you have to put those organizational standards in place by the way you act, the way you Behave the way you communicate within your organization. So absolutely modeling behavior. I'm right behind you there. If we think about leaders in this really competitive market right now, how can leaders foster this culture of growth and high performing teams in this really competitive market? What do they need to do to save, stand out, to be different, to really help organizations grow?

Jean Larkin [00:23:00]:
Yeah, it's a really phenomenal question. I think ultimately when we look at most HR policies, most leadership development trainings, right. Most engagement strategies, they're all about that, right? How can we be the best we want to be? And I think it all comes down to stronger relationships. So we talk a lot about human focused leadership. It's what we do at Octopi. And ultimately I find that the best way to build stronger teams, right. To cultivate a culture of insert your values here, right. Whether that is more autonomy or whether that's creativity is to work in it together.

Jean Larkin [00:23:36]:
I don't think leaders role in this is just to inspire or get their individual contributors to grow and learn. I think it starts with them. So creating a culture of learning and growth starts with everyone on the team. It's not something that I assign out, right? It's something that informs our budget, it's something that informs how we schedule our weeks and months. It's something that's going to inform how we build an off site, right? And whether that is industry specific learning that we do, whether that's a book club that we started our team. What we really need to do as leaders is walk the walk as we were just talking about, right? Like I need to be willing to learn and grow and invite others to do as well so we can have a full culture of it. And it's not something that like I'm kind of forcing down other people's throats. It's something that I'm enjoying doing that I want other people to come along with that.

Jean Larkin [00:24:27]:
I want a culture, right, of people who are excited or curious, who have a growth mindset. Whether it is work product specific, industry specific or just general learning. I think across all of those boards with, you know, our policies and our behavior can be really impactful to have a truly growth minded team and kind of cultivate that highly productive learning, growing innovative team that we're all love to be part of.

Nia Thomas [00:24:56]:
Where do you think that this kind of remote work, this connected, working digital nomadism, where do you think it's going to be in the next three years, in the next five years? And we have to think about AI as part of that because it's coming, whether we like it or not.

Jean Larkin [00:25:11]:
Absolutely. I think that will always have people who, in moments of their life will want to travel more, who will want to be, you know, able to work and explore the world. And so I don't think nomadism or digital, you know, workers are going to change. If anything, I think the influence of Europe, when you see the digital nomad visas that countries like Spain are rolling out, I think if anything, we're incentivizing talented high performers from around the world to choose where they base. And what I'm hoping this brings is more of a slow digital nomadism. Right. Whether instead of every week or every month we're traveling, maybe I spend six months in Spain and then, you know, six in France, maybe. I know my company wants to expand into the German market, so I'll spend four months there and I'll, you know, work on my German.

Jean Larkin [00:26:00]:
These things can go hand in hand with personal professional development goals. And I'm biased because I'm a bit of a sustainability geek that I think slower and longer stays are my preference, but, you know, we'll see how that goes. I do think we have hubs that are shifting with that. And then with remote work, I think especially as we have more automated and automated tasks and there's more of kind of the tedious, monotonous stuff that we don't really love doing, is covered with AI and other options. I think the human element is where we're going to thrive. So whether you're in person, whether you're hybrid, whether you're fully remote, AI is not human. It's incredibly intelligent, it offers amazing solutions. It's going to think differently than us.

Jean Larkin [00:26:42]:
It's going to hopefully help in a lot of positive ways, revolutionize medicine and options, and still it's not human. So I think the companies and leaders that are going to have the most success over this transition, whether they're empowering, fully remote work, flex work, digital nomads, hybrid, et cetera, are going to be the leaders who leverage AI for its functionality, but never lose the human element. We're not bringing in AI to replace our people. We're bringing it in to automate and to optimize and improve our strategies and our workflow, and then freeing our people up to have a better balance of their tasks, their activities, to keep the human element, to keep the connection, whether that's internally or with our clients or with our partners. I think although it's lovely and fantastic how easy it is to have a chatbot on your website right now it's very different than having a conversation with people. So my hope is that we'll see that shift. And I do think the leaders that over five or ten years will be, you know, on top of the most impactful companies will be the ones that learn to leverage AI and keep the human element.

Nia Thomas [00:27:50]:
I'm so glad you said that. We. We haven't talked about this before we came on here, but I have a real feeling that we will need to balance hyper humanism and ultra digitalism. Those are my two sides of the seesaw. And that's absolutely what you said. That actually as we move more towards that technical digital side, that actually we have to maintain that human side because. And I think during COVID it really showed that we need that human touch, whether that's virtually, but we need that human connection, we need that kindness back here. So, yes, I most definitely agree with you.

Jean Larkin [00:28:25]:
Yeah.

Nia Thomas [00:28:25]:
Before you go, I've heard a little whisper that you might be writing a book. Yes. Tell us a bit more about your book.

Jean Larkin [00:28:33]:
Well, the book is called the Five A Guide to Human Focused Leadership. Stronger Relationships in a Workplace that Doesn't Suck. And it's. Yeah, we laugh. We kind of hemmed and hawked a little bit about if that ending would make it. But it's ultimately a book about how you can use some core principles with all of your relationships, but specifically as a human focused leader to strengthen the relationships you have on your team. Not just you to an employee, but the other ICs towards each other as a team, et cetera. More intentionally cultivate the culture that you wish to have and really transform what could be eight hours of just draining or exhausting or overworking.

Jean Larkin [00:29:15]:
Eight to an eight hours of thriving and feeling fulfilled and feeling excited. You know, ultimately, you know, Matt and I spent a lot of time thinking about what the world would look like if the majority of us were fulfilled by work, not in spite of it. And what we can do to help kind of move that needle. And the work we do at Octopi is ultimately, it's a lot of the business stuff, it's a lot of working with big companies, et cetera. And we wanted to figure out how we could distill it down to help any individual leader or aspiring leader of how to kind of tackle some of these things head on. So I guess that's kind of high level.

Nia Thomas [00:29:47]:
When will your book be released?

Jean Larkin [00:29:49]:
Early in 2025. We're still finalizing some details with the printer, so I'll let you know so you can. We can put it under the podcast notes when it when it's official, but soon.

Nia Thomas [00:30:00]:
Amazing. Jean, it's been really good having a conversation with you. I'm glad that we finally managed to get together and have this conversation because I think we put it off and life has just got in the way. So it's really good that we've managed to come together. Really enjoyed the conversation. Really look forward to your book being published because I have a feeling that we will have a lot of similarities between self awareness and connection and that human centered leadership. But for now, Jean Larkin, it's been a pleasure.

Jean Larkin [00:30:26]:
Thank you so much.

Nia Thomas [00:30:27]:
Leah thank you for joining me on today's episode where we aim to develop self aware leaders around the globe to generate generate kinder, more respectful and creative working relationships through reflection, recognition and regulation. Head over to my website@knowingselfknowingothers.co.uk to sign up to my newsletter to keep up to date with my blog, podcast and book. Looking forward to having you on my learning journey.