Talk Dirty To Me
Three different friends with four different perspectives on kink, fetish, and sex, talking dirty to each other. Enjoy personal journeys, stories, confessions, and guest experts on all things "dirty".
Talk Dirty To Me
S2E4 (Jake Wing) - Rope Bondage and Shibari Stories
- Guest today is Jake Wing
- Shibari/Rope specialist
- Has been into rope ever since reading an old Wonder Woman comic when he was 13
- Started a website back in 2000 that was only around a couple of years.
- Has been teaching over the last 10 years
- Austin Rope Slingers
- Also teaches nationally and privately
- Wonder Woman comic discussion
- GWNN - group in Austin that has a bash every year
- Tosin recalls seeing someone get tied up for the first time at a party
- Western Rope vs Eastern Rope
- Jake gives his opening safety talk for his rope 101 class
- 12m:30s - TRIGGER WARNING for “suicide” mention
- How to talk through a tie-up session
- Specificity is vital
- #chainsawplay
- Different types of ropes for different uses:
- Hand made jute
- Cotton - don’t suspend with this
- Hemp
- Nylon
- One of the best riggers in Austin is Kim Lee
- Weird left turn after the Harry Houdini question where Jake mentions that he’s been telling stories that involve him tying up women (mostly) and he wanted to clarify that rope is for everyone.
- Jake’s Socials:
- FetLife = jake_wing
- Instagram = jake_wing_iv
- Facebook = Jake Wing
- TDTM OnlyFans announcement!
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Well, well, well, go ahead and open up your ears, your mind and whatever else you need. You listen to talk dirty to me.
Speaker 2:Hello all you sexy bees and welcome back to Talk Dirty to Me, the podcast where three friends with three different perspectives on kink, fetish and sex talk dirty to one another. And with us today we have Tosin Aloufaso, the kink oracle.
Speaker 1:Hello.
Speaker 2:Stephanie Slayton, the queen of spankos. Oh hi, there Me, daisy, your neighbor Femme Dom, and I apologize, I'm the problem. Today there's weird audio. It's because I'm on a work trip and I couldn't bring my fancy microphone, but it doesn't matter, because we have a fucking fantastic guest for you today that I'm super pumped about. Tosin, you want to take it away?
Speaker 1:Yes, absolutely so. I am happy and honored and proud to introduce Jake Wing. He is one of the founders and instructors of Austin Rope Slingers. If you've heard my story with Journey and Learning Rope, that's one of the first places I went to to ever to go tie somebody up or like get like professional rope training at. They've been going on for quite some time and I'll let Jake give you the details on it, but he's been doing for a while. We've been wanting to do an episode talking about Shabari and rope and rope bondage. Personally, you're one of the best people I can think of to talk about it with. You know it was a couple of the rope people in the community were hoping to get on too, but I'm glad we got you here as well. So yeah, jake, they hide. Tell us how you got in the rope and anything else that I missed about you in that intro. Cool.
Speaker 3:Hello folks. As far as how I got into rope, that's an old story. I mean back puberty.
Speaker 2:I want to hear it.
Speaker 3:Yes, please. Okay, me too I read a lot of comic books and there was a Wonder Woman comic book where she got tied to the railroad tracks with her own golden lasso and I was about 13 when I read that and it created funny feelings in my pocket region.
Speaker 2:Pocket region.
Speaker 3:But so it was definitely something that interested me, and when I started being an adult and sexually active that's the main thing that I do in the bedroom is people up and throughout the 20th century anyway, I didn't do it very well. Nobody, nobody was teaching it back then, and so I was trying to reverse engineer it from bad porn.
Speaker 1:Reverse engineering from bad porn is unfortunately a lot of us guys.
Speaker 3:And so then in the 21st century, I found the partner that was very interested in it as well and we started a website in 2000, which ran for about two and a half years. Never made much money I mean more than beer money but it was fun to do and I've been tying kind of publicly and in the scene ever since then, Probably in the last 10 years or so, I've been teaching various places Austin, Roots and yours, as mentioned, but also I teach some stuff nationally and privately.
Speaker 2:I have a couple things to say. This is not the first time I have heard of somebody saying the old Wonder Woman comics getting them into rope. Like apparently it's a thing which is fascinating. I want to go back and read them now. There's like some low level secret kink in that comic series.
Speaker 4:It's not even all that secret. Also lots of stuff, oh really.
Speaker 2:I'm going to read it now.
Speaker 1:Wonder Woman does get spanked in an inordinate amount.
Speaker 4:Yes, there's a film about the creator of the Wonder Woman comics, and both he and his partner were into BDSM and rope tying and spanking, and so I think that it just kind of crept in there, and they were Polly also.
Speaker 2:And they were what they were.
Speaker 4:Polly Amorous. Yes, yes, and they were Polly.
Speaker 2:When did you so? You saw that in a comic book at 13. What was the moment you realized that tying people up was a thing, though, like it was a kink, like when was the first time you saw it for real and I was like, oh shit, that's something I can actually do.
Speaker 3:You mean something other than like in dramas, or you know? Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm imagining when you were 13, you probably saw it didn't go. Oh, I understand that. That's a whole kink unto itself that I can actually enact on other people Like you, probably just like that's hot and I don't know why. Right, yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3:I'm going to show my age here. I'm 61 years old, so this was like the 70s, you know, and there was no internet. There was no. I grew up in Oklahoma. I thought I was alone, I thought I was sick, you know, and so it took me a long time to find out that there were other people like me yeah.
Speaker 2:Do you remember the moment where you saw Shabari or Rottach for the first time? Or like, oh my God, I am part of a community.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I was born again, but kind of an inclusive born. It was a company called Harmony Publications and they put out a bunch of bondage magazines and one of them was called Bondage Life and it was not just, you know, professional photographers and professional models. They took letters and stuff from other people all over the country and submissions and they would I mean, there was amateur work in there in that magazine and that's what kind of clued me in that I. There were other people who liked. So then, you know, I had a couple of. Well, I had a partner, finally that she was a little older than I was, but I was like this was my early twenties. I'm like let's try this thing. She agreed and West was history.
Speaker 2:That's so cool. How did you become good at it, like if it was? You know, back in the day there was nobody teaching, did you? Was it just searching for? I don't know, like.
Speaker 3:A lot of it, trial and error, and I got to tell you that really I didn't become good until I mean I was doing it 10 or 15 years, based on you know what I was seeing and born and what I learned by you know, figuring it out. But I really didn't until I saw some people doing it, doing it well, and got some instructions. Back in 2002, there's a group here in Austin called Gwynn group, with no name, and they have everything something called the Gwynn Bash of a year, and they brought in a Shibari person, famous at that time, still famous, a lady named Midori, and I took a class from her, and that's when I I started to understand the importance of tension. I got some understanding the way that the Eastern stuff worked, because I had been doing pretty much damsel and distress type work throughout the 20th century.
Speaker 3:I will say that I found when I was 17,. I found a magazine in the back of a used bookstore in Beaumont, texas, and it was a Japanese magazine. It was and it was all pretty Asian women tied up with Cicil rope and like a single tear rolling down the cheek, and it was hot and different. And so I knew what Japanese rope was. I just didn't know how to do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you bring up something that was like I didn't even consider until I had heard you talk about it, which was my introduction to rope was going to a play party at the Bakanaw and seeing Tom it's another person in the community who's tied a lot of people up, tied someone up and I just was transfixed and like mostly at just like watching someone I had been seen running around the party like very graceful, very flexible, very bubbly and like functional, slowly lose all of their ability to like do anything, like the time it took to like get her tied up and put up in suspension.
Speaker 1:And you know, this person that I've seen like that had like so much energy and was like running around and stuff just being like completely like blissed out and relaxed and spinning around like complete loss of control over all of her limbs. I was just like well that I'm in that, that I want that, I want to make people make that face and it looked beautiful and it was like I was like I liked making art out of people and he was doing shabari and I didn't even realize there was a difference until you had brought up like a western rope and eastern rope are different from each other. Yeah.
Speaker 3:I mean there's definitely some similarities and duplication. I think maybe you know people you're tying human bodies and so some, some ways of doing that is going to be similar to the matter where you come up with it.
Speaker 2:I did not know. There were two different styles. There's an eastern and a western. Can we talk about the differences between the two?
Speaker 3:Oh, there's probably a lot more than two different styles, oh no, but those are the two main styles. And and first I need to probably clarify the terms a little bit Some people talk about western rope as if and what they're talking about is western cultures interpretation of eastern rope. So within the umbrella of shabari, you've got easterners and westerners doing shabari, and so that's not really what I'm talking about. When I talk about western rope, I'm talking about more like the. It came out of Hollywood and was on the detective magazines, the damsel and distress type stuff, and there's also a large I mean there's still that dichotomy the west, a lot of the western riggers are more, there's more money involved in western rigging.
Speaker 3:Modern. We'll see a lot more websites devoted to western rope. Where people are, they're gagged and bound and there's a little bit of drama to it, like kidnapping or such as that. But some of just like the physical things you'll see is you're less likely to see a suspension with western rope. I won't say that you I mean these are trends, not rules You're more likely to see a gag in western rope, limbs are more likely to be together like this, whereas eastern are more likely to be like this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and by by like this, you know, like arms parallel to your chin, holding over each other instead of like out in front of you, or like tied together, or behind you, yeah yeah.
Speaker 3:And western ropes more likely to use like manmade rope, nylon or such as that, or they'll go with cotton. Eastern rope is more likely to be jute or hemp. So there's a lot of differences, but there's a lot of similarities too, and my personal style, I try to blend them. I like to do both sometimes in the same tie.
Speaker 4:So Shibari started as like a form of torture in Japan. Yeah, that's like the origin of Shibari.
Speaker 3:More like not so much torture I mean, aspects of it were torture but it's like prisoner. You know ways to restrain prisoners. One of the things that I know about Japanese culture is that they didn't have much iron on that little island, and so, you know, in Europe and Western world, blacksmiths were pounding out chains and the Japanese were saving the steel for beautiful, wonderful swords, and so they would use, you know, natural materials for binding and building. That's why you see a lot more like bamboo and things like that in Japanese culture than you would, and really I'm talking about not modern times but medieval times.
Speaker 2:That's interesting. So it came out out of necessity, because that was just the tool they had to use.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, I'm not an expert on that, but yeah, I think that's that's. That has something to do with it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I might like nerding out, I'm not an expert either, but you can't convince me that it still didn't start with kinks somewhere in there. Oh, just like to put all of that effort into how beautiful the rope is, because I googled some of the images from the 1400s and what they were using on prisoners and it just seems like an awful lot of work for restraining a prisoner.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah, there was like a combat version of it too. That would you see. Yeah, and it's like that you learned literally, instead of the sword, you'd be able to like, while in a fight with someone, be able to like restrain them. So there's all these like quick things you can do for like getting a wrist lock, tying them up, like some of the one rope stuff that has come out now started with like this combat style rope things, and it's like that was. That was a nerdy hole that went down for a little while. I mean, like you know, japanese soldiers really out there just tying people up on the battlefield committed.
Speaker 3:Yeah Well, and I think, you know, I think that if we just go back to the Middle Ages we're not going back far enough. I really think rope is probably, you know, mankind's third tool. You know we had the sharp rock, we had the club, and at some point we made an axe, and we did that by tying those two things together, right? So anytime anybody you know talks about inventing rope bondage, I think probably you know some caveman did that to the wife around the campfire.
Speaker 4:So Letting in bully guys, yeah.
Speaker 1:Actually and you're saying that one of the things I was going to ask is because I found it to be really impactful is so when you go to, when you go to a ARS class, there's usually like some intermediate or advanced technique being taught in one place, and then there's one-on-one class and the first one-on-one class I took, jake taught and hit your opening safety talk. I found to be really good. So I was going to ask, because I think it's good to just here in general, so if I would love it if you would give that like opening safety speech that you give like about rope and safety and stuff. It's like 10 minutes, you sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, we like and we'll pause the next question we want to, but I think it's a really valuable 10 minutes bill, so Okay.
Speaker 3:So when I teach beginner rope and also rope singers, we try to do that. We have a class every Monday night and for some reason, there's a ton of beginners that show up every Monday night, and so we we teach beginner rope to everyone, and part of that is to try to talk about the safety, and so the first thing I talk about is that rope is a murder weapon. The rope is an execution method. Rope is a way to commit suicide. It's dangerous and you've got to respect it. That being said, you know, our car is pretty dangerous too. Fire is pretty dangerous. These are all things that we deal with every day, and so I always tell people that the most important safety rule when dealing with rope and maybe it's a lot of things is don't be stupid, right? And so when I, the stupid, can creep up, I want to tell you a story, and I don't know if this is I'm pretty sure this is true, because I've seen it in multiple places, but they were all on the internet, so take it with a grain of salt, but it sounds very plausible. A gentleman and two ladies became all became enamored at each other at a place this happened in Europe, I believe, and they had been drinking, and so they decided that it would all. It would be a great thing for them all to go to a private location and have some kinky, sexy fun. And so the gentleman tied up the two ladies both of them and then took rope and put it around one of theirs neck and took it up over a pipe and then tied it around the other ladies and then, because he'd been drinking, he passed out, and so when he woke up, one of those ladies was dead and the other one was in a coma. And so I think that the thing that we can, we can agree on is that all of those people were stupid. Is it true story? You know, I I've been telling it for a long time and I I know that I found it on the internet at one point to just because I wanted to ask that question myself, and I did see it. But don't ask me for the link now, because I've been telling that story for quite a while.
Speaker 3:But yeah, it's, it's, it's the kind of thing that can happen, and I think it probably, almost certainly, has happened. And I think the thing there is that and I tell people I don't want to, you know, we're all adults? If we're, if you're watching this podcast, I hope we're adults, and so I'm not going to say never do this, never drink and do rope, okay, but I would say don't do it while you're drinking and certainly don't do dangerous things. I mean, when you're drunk, the stupid sneaks up on you.
Speaker 3:If you think there's something, you know, if you're going to do something and there's about a 1% chance that something bad might happen, well, if the bad thing that happens is that you are on your knees and you fall on your face and maybe you break your nose, and if thing is, things are terrible, then that's probably a risk worth taking. If that, if you find it to be fun or enjoyable. You know, skateboarders take bigger risks than that. Those same odds, though. If the risk is, you know, if it's a 1% risk of failure, but the result of failure is death or serious injury, then that's not cool, that's not enough, that's not enough certainty, and you can't make this stuff safe. But you can make it safer. You can be smart about it, you can not be stupid. And so my cat wants to join.
Speaker 2:They should Toes, and we can't hear you.
Speaker 1:Okay, all right, still hear me. Oh sorry, that was me. Yeah, no, we're cat friendly here.
Speaker 3:We get cats walking all over, stuff everywhere. Trust me.
Speaker 1:If, sam, we would take a four minute diversion to talk about kitties, okay.
Speaker 3:So you know, sort of death. There are some safety considerations. Again, as long as you're as you're not stupid, as long as you're smart about it, probably not going to encounter the situation that's that dangerous. But you know, when people talk about rope they always talk about what the oh my God, you're going to cut off your circulation, right? So really, you heard that at some point. And rope, you're going to cut off your circulation.
Speaker 3:Well that's not as much of a risk Because everybody thinks I mean, we've all gone to sleep on our arm and woken up with it all weird and it's tingly and it barely moves, and then five minutes later it's fine, right, and that may have been, we may have been sleeping on that for hours, okay, and it's not much of a problem. I'm not saying that that's not dangerous, but it's not as dangerous as everybody thinks it is. What is kind of a risk is that rope can impinge your nerves. So if you put a, you know, a collapsing slip knot on somebody's wrist and then they start pulling on it, you can.
Speaker 3:There's all kinds of nerves that are up in your wrist. You can cause problems for mobility, for sensitivity. There are like three main nerves that comes through your arm that can cause problems, and this is not just. I mean suspension is where you're more likely to encounter this, because you've got more weight on that rope. But you can cause nerve issues when you're on the ground, because anytime you press hard on those nerves you can cause problems and nerve damage can last for seconds, minutes, days, weeks, months or never heal and it's just so. The other thing I want to say about the possibility of nerve damage is that if you are in the rope and it feels weird, it's probably a nerve impingement. Okay, I've had people say things like my hands are big, what?
Speaker 4:No, they're the same size.
Speaker 3:Oh, this is a nerve problem, so I take the rope off quickly, or sometimes it's just a matter of moving it, getting it off that nerve. But if they say something that's unusual, if it feels unusual, then it's probably a nerve issue. There's a. The radial nerve comes through your upper arm right here, and a lot of people do tight rope on that upper arm and you can cause something called wrist drop in your hand. You can do this, but you can't do this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's like holding your hold, your hand being limp, but you can't straighten it back up. You can't. You can't keep your hand in a high five position and just kind of like fall through that.
Speaker 3:Right, and I actually did that to myself once. I slept on it wrong and I woke up and I'm like I know what this is. I know exactly what this is and I will tell you that it it's. I regain full movement in about two minutes. The whole back of my hand was numb. That came back in about 10 minutes and then for the rest of the day it was weird. Like I said, nerve stuff is weird. I could feel myself touch the back of my hand, but I could not feel how hard I was touching it. I was numb to pressure and so it all came back fine eventually. But the other thing I want to say about that is that there was never any pain, and so you can cause nerve issues without actually you know the warning pain. So just be aware of that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And to say, like you know, when I'm talking to anybody I'm tying up, especially since I consider myself a beginner, which honestly it's. It's an interesting thing and most of the rope community people I've been with even people have been tying for like 10 years or still, like you know, but like I've probably been like three, three, four years now and not tying like super, super regularly but tie a lot. And so anybody I tie, I was like listen, it is very, very important to me. If I'm tying you up and anything at all feels strange, say it immediately. You know, circulation stuff is not an emergency. Anything else is an emergency. And I was like if you tell me a leg is numb, we can take the time to fix that. If you tell me that like I can't feel two of my fingers but I can feel the rest of them, I'm like hurry up, get out.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I did a music video one time and there was a rigor involved on the set because my character was being murdered by this couple and I had to go to her place beforehand to kind of go through it, before we actually shot it on the day, and she was so like strict about me being vocal with anything and she was like and it was a pretty intense tie up that I was in she was like I can get you out in 40 seconds flat. She was like, so just, you got to just do that. And the entire time we were on set she was like I even felt like my body could have gone longer, but she was just so overly careful and I really appreciated that because I felt super safe with her. But it also gave me the thought of like, oh, this could go badly, Like if someone left me here, this could be really terrible.
Speaker 3:Well, and that's the next thing I would talk about in the safety talk is that if you have made someone helpless, they are your responsibility. You should have a plan for if the building catches on fire, you know, and it should be a better plan than just like good luck, I'll be out front. And so some people will say that you should never leave somebody that is bound alone in a room and I am like I said earlier, I'm not going to say anything, absolutely so. I mean, I think if you've tied somebody's wrists together in front and then you need to go to the bathroom, go ahead, you'll be all right.
Speaker 3:I mean, if the house does catch on fire, they can still get outside. They can even pound on the door on the way out and say, hey, I smell smoke, but if you've got somebody you know hogtied and blindfolded, you better hold it. You know. You better wait until they're free, and you should also have a quick way to get them out of that. If you're tying, you should have a cutting tool of some kind on you and know how to use it. I use I cheat because I have this on me all the time. This is a Gerber multi tool that has it's sharp on the blade but it's dull right there, so I can slip it up under rope and cut.
Speaker 2:Have you ever had an instance where you had to do that?
Speaker 3:If anybody has been tying for a while and they answer that question negatively, don't tie with them. Okay. Okay, because this stuff, yeah, it happens occasionally. I mean, I've been doing this for a long time and I probably cut rope Occasionally. Cut rope for fun, but I cut rope in a semi-emergency type situation. I've never had a real emergency semi-emergency type situation, probably twice a year. Okay, yeah, that's average.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've only come close one time. I messed up a Somerville bowline and it collapsed and I was having a hard enough time getting it out and the person was like I'm having some nerve things and I was like I literally had it next to me and if I hadn't gotten down 10 more seconds I would have been cutting it off.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and so and I'll tell a story on myself probably my most recent time that I cut rope I have a good friend who trusted me with something. She was six months pregnant, oh and yeah, and so that was kind of a big thing and we wanted to do something together and we tried this thing and about three quarters of the way through it she started to feel faint, like she was going to pass out, and so I don't know what happened. I mean, this thing is on me my entire adult life. I reached in the pocket where it's yeah, I reached in the pocket where it's supposed to be. It wasn't there. I don't even remember why it wasn't. I've got a pagoda here where I do tying and we were right there. My live-in partner had suggested that we put shears on, like a month before. I'm like, yeah, let's do that. And so I had kind of built-in suspenders there and the woman that I tied didn't notice that there was a problem, just took the shears out and cut them down.
Speaker 2:Thank goodness for the shears.
Speaker 3:I gave my partner big props for that. Yes, and the thing there, too, is that you got to be humble, because some people get good at this and they assume that they can do no wrong. I've been doing this for a long time and I will still screw up against them, yep.
Speaker 1:You know, as people have asked me about like getting rope and like picking rigors and stuff, one of the first things I say is, like go to classes.
Speaker 1:The best thing you do is like get around people who've been doing it a long time so you can get your own vibe and feel for it. I understand social anxiety and I'm going to be around a lot of people, but I think, specifically in this, being able to look at someone and like their mannerisms and how they negotiate and do all that is really really important. But giant red flags for me for rigors is overconfidence. Like if they're not willing to be like oh yeah, I can make mistakes, it's dangerous that things can go wrong. Like if they're not humble, that can put you in a lot of bad situations. And also if, like, they don't talk to you at all about like you and your body and what it needs, and like come up with ways to like signal things. Like if you meet somebody and like, oh, I'd love for you to tie me up and they're just like cool, yank out some rope and start tying you. That's that those are. That's a big red flag for me.
Speaker 3:No, you got to rope. Scenes really need to be negotiated, yeah, in a big way.
Speaker 2:I was like even what kind of thing needs to be like what does that look like a negotiation? Negotiation look like Like. What's like. If I wanted to go get tied up, what should I ask?
Speaker 3:Well, first you should bet your rigor OK, and when I mean when I say that is, you should, like Tosen said, you know, does something public. See if you can watch them tie, see if you know, or if they have an online presence. See if it gets some work out there that looks competent, that looks like something that you'd be interested in. But also and here's the weird thing, don't you can ask other rigors about the person that you're betting. You can ask about their competence, but they're trusted for you know, ask bottoms, ask people what they've tied. Ok, because rope tops or tops in general, really don't know for sure what happens in private bottoms.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and a significant amount of rope tops don't ever tie themselves. Like I, I've done to myself most things that have done to other people. If it's like feasible, like short of suspending myself, like well, spending my whole body, I've tried to at least give myself some experience of like what it feels like. But like I, I don't even me, I don't have the experience of being completely tied up by another person, and so I don't feel comfortable speaking to that experience.
Speaker 3:Well, and as far as negotiation to, in a negotiation there's kind of two negotiation styles and if you're negotiating for the first time, you should should use the explicit style. That's where, where you talk about, you know, we're going to do rope, we're going to, you know, maybe do a little impact play and that's it. That explicit. It's like these are the things we're going to do and and nothing else. The other thing that people fall into, because it's it's a lot easier to talk about, to talk out, just say the implicit styles like, well, I don't want to do this or this or this. That means that anything else goes, and it may be that the bottom who says those three things is not as imaginative as the top, and there may be a lot of things that the top can think of that the bottom doesn't want to have anything to do with.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we, we. And so we had a. We had a joke episode, or joking an episode, talking about that, which was like oh yeah, you can do whatever you want. And I was like oh, can I dip my finger in P and poke it in your eye?
Speaker 3:Yeah, right right, yeah Well, but you didn't think about that Chainsaw play, oh God, you didn't say, we couldn't right.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, no yeah so explicit.
Speaker 3:And the other thing is I would say to tops is really, you know, don't be a rules lawyer on that, because when we're doing this kind of thing, if I were walking down the street I mean the things that I like to do to people if I were walking down the street and I grabbed somebody and started doing those things, I would be arrested, and rightfully so. The reason that I can do these things in an honorable way, in a legal way, in an enjoyable way, is that there are people in the world who want those things done to them, and that symmetry is what allows the whole BDSM scene to work. And so if we find those people that allow that, we need to maintain that. We need to protect that and, to that end, we need to protect the people who are involved. And so, anytime you're negotiating, if you think you've found a loophole, don't exploit it. Use the spirit of the negotiation with a letter.
Speaker 1:Yeah, don't be a rules lawyer and the spirit of the negotiation like leaning towards the most safe and most restrictive version. And I bring that up because I had heard of a situation where, like somebody wanted to be in a like a fairly rough CNC thing, but like had hit on during the scene, had hit upon a trigger that it could be easy to interpret that like oh yeah, this is exactly what you want and this is what you describe that you wanted. But the bottom was surprised themselves that that happened. And so, like you can interpret the spirit of a negotiation and be like yeah, do what you told me not to do, because that's how it goes.
Speaker 1:But the spirit of negotiation is like take care of the person in front of you. Like it's one of the things that I love so much about. Like BDSM in general and King in general is like the type of trust and care that's underneath these. What a lot of people would describe as despicable things, is really really beautiful to me. Like I'm just like and I was like look, look, how romantic it is that you're trying to find ways to do safe words so that you can drown somebody in a murky pool.
Speaker 3:That's so beautiful. I've done that actually. I mean it was a murky, but our safe word I mean, as I, she was bound and I was standing on her in the shallow end of a pool her safe word, which was really our signal for me to let her up, was just for her to wiggle her butt and that worked great. She loved it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, now, I think the murky pool one was holding a, holding a balloon underwater, and so you know it's the one when you see the balloon game, right, I was like, yeah, that was like that's beautiful, like a whole, like the person like presented in a public forum that we were in and we like, hey, my friend wants to do the scene. I'm kind of I haven't really thought about like a good, reliable mechanism for this. Anybody have any ideas. And he thought, and I was like this is great, this is beautiful, this is so romantic. I think I saw that scene. Is this recent? Yeah, you're in pinky, it wasn't pinkie.
Speaker 1:Somebody wanted yeah, basically, somebody wanted to like do like a kidnapping, drowning scene where they're like basically strangling somebody under dirty, murky water and we're like I don't know how we're going to signal it, she won't be, she'll be gagged, she'll be. I'm not like going to be throwing her around under water, so it'll be hard to see. And so when he came up with the balloon idea, I didn't see the scene actually happen. I wish I had that. It looks like a fascinating time, but I was in the thread of the discussion for it.
Speaker 3:So that's pretty much my whole safety talk, yeah.
Speaker 1:And I appreciate it. I was like, yeah, I found it super valuable and like I've taken a lot of those things with me, especially the like the person you tie up is your responsibility. Have a plan for getting them out if there's a fire. Like I had a partner that I had, like you know, somewhat of like a chest harness with their arms in front of them, and they were like I really need a waffle. And I'm like, cool, I'll go make you a waffle. I was like no, I want to do it.
Speaker 2:I need a waffle in the middle of being tied up. What and?
Speaker 1:they were like I want to do it.
Speaker 2:I need a snack.
Speaker 1:And their legs were open and stuff and it's like, like you said, the 1% risk there is. You know, if you don't have your hands free and you fall, you can't break your fall and so you can hurt yourself really bad. And I was just like, hey, can I make the waffle? But they really want to do it and I'm like, look, I'll, you can make. If it's important to you, you can go make. You know, you can make the waffle, but I'm standing next to you the whole time.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and that's the right compromise to make. I mean, let them walk around, but just make them aware that if they fall, they're not going to be able to do this.
Speaker 4:You have a favorite tie, like a favorite go to tie that you just love, or is it just whatever the mood strikes?
Speaker 3:I kind of do and it's. It's really pretty simple. I like something called an arm binder. It's basically a strict rope behind the back. It's kind of a cool like triangle shape of the arms and it makes people have very good posture.
Speaker 4:Oh, yeah, oh do you have?
Speaker 2:are there multiple kind of ropes, Like, is there a type of rope that people should not do use if somebody's listening and they're just like, I'm going to go to home depot with some rope?
Speaker 1:Don't go to home depot with your rope.
Speaker 3:Go to home depot and get some rope. I have rope in my in my bag, like golfers have golf clubs. Different kinds of rope for different things.
Speaker 3:There's a lot of people I mean the strict Eastern style people use handmade jute and it's wonderful, I love it, but it is. It is caveman technology, it is twisted grass and so it's not as strong as some other things might be. In fact it's. I mean, cotton is the only thing that you might use. The cotton is wonderful for bondage. Don't suspend with it. And jute it's got such a wonderful feel and it holds a knot so well, but it's it's. It's not as strong as some things.
Speaker 3:A lot of people use it for up lines and I'm okay with that, but I personally that's outside my risk factor. I use jute on the body and then I'll use something else for an up line. Hemp is another natural material. That's it's saw and stronger than jute. I might use that for an up line, but I'm more likely to use a man made like nylon or or something like that. Nylon is wonderfully colorful and it's big. You can use it also for like. If you're going to do something in the pool or something like that, you can use a rope. You can throw it in the washing machine, wash it and dry it, and it'll be fine. You do that with jute rope and you just have a washing machine full of grass.
Speaker 2:That would make. I'm sure that's happened and then made somebody very sad.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes.
Speaker 4:And I've heard that when, when they whoa a dollar a foot. Yeah, I've heard that the impressions that the rope leaves on you are called Shabari kisses. Is that accurate?
Speaker 3:They, they, certainly you can call them that. There's a lot of nomenclature that gets batted back and forth and Shabari kisses is good. I tied a person for a little while that had a tattoo on her foot and it was a rope mark and it was very realistic. I was like I didn't put any rope there and they're like, yeah, that's been there for a year, but they had. They had taken a photograph of an actual rope mark and took it to the tattoo artist. That's super cool yeah.
Speaker 2:That is really awesome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, shabari kisses is actually one I haven't heard yet. Oh yeah, something else I want to ask is, like you talked to me on it a little bit, there's lots of different like motivations for why people like like to do rope. There are people who like to do it because they like making people pretty. There are people who enjoy the surrender aspect of it. There are people who like the tactile, mathematical challenge. What would you say is like what is your motivation like behind it and what's been like an interesting motivation you've heard or seen from somebody else.
Speaker 3:Well, I have two motivations and it really kind of goes to two different styles Kind of desperate, like almost, I call it, kind of dark. Almost CNC type rope is what I mentioned earlier.
Speaker 3:the pocket region, that's what does it for me and so that erotic type of forced orgasm type, stuff like that, that's what I enjoy in the bedroom. But I also am very much enamored of the artistic style of making someone a piece of art, you know, whether it be a suspension or even. I've done some things I like there's kind of an objectification fetish. I've done things like here in Austin there's a big party that happens once a month called shrine and there's like 300, 400 people in this big room.
Speaker 3:And I will take a beautiful person and tie them to a pole in like clear view of everyone, and I will just stand back and leave them there for a while so that people can admire them as they're found and so that that artistic that that making person a beautiful, a person a beautiful object is something I enjoy as well. As far as other people's motivations, some people like those things from the, from the other end, or I'd be bored, but also there's a lot of people that I mean BDSM acts, aspects of it is like submission, but there's also some people that are challenged by it. They want to. It's almost like a athletic challenge to endure this thing. That may be painful or difficult and is so, and a dolphin rush is something that they're looking for in that situation.
Speaker 3:I know a lot of self-tires who like to tie themselves up and create their own art in that way, and so there's a lot of accomplishment in that. One of the best riggers in Austin is a lady named Kim Lee, and I have seen her tie herself and suspend herself from one leg and then have her submissive is on the floor and she will, hanging upside down, tie that person and then suspend it. It's an amazing level of skill.
Speaker 1:I'm in awe of it. Yeah no, kim Lee is one of the other ones that I brought up as some of the best teachers in Austin. She definitely gave me one of my other formative rope experiences. She runs a thing called Reclamation Rope, which is kind of. Her and another partner who's a Black person Teach rope in a space that's for people of color, because rope has a couple of sides to it in regards to being a Black person and so being in that space.
Speaker 1:Up until that point I've been really like I don't want to do things in front of people that I'm not 100 percent sure are going to be good. Right, like, I think the largest risk I've ever taken outside of Reclamation Rope was the first suspension I did that you helped me with who, by the way, like she's still giggles about that all the day. She was really, really impressed with, like your consent technique on that. For everybody that's unaware of it, I was tying somebody up for the first time and then suspending them for the first time and I was like I really want to be supervised. Jake lovingly helped me to do it and he was told me he was like hey, you probably shouldn't use jute for the upline, you have hemp I'm like I do, and I needed him to show me something like that was about a rope that was tied on her back Before he went to point it out. He was like is it okay if I touch her back to show to somewhere? This sad, and she's thoroughly impressed by that, which is a good baseline. Everybody should do that. But like, that was great.
Speaker 1:So up until that I had not done anything that was too risky and Kim had put this in a situation that was like okay, me who I also agree, I would easily put as one of the best in Austin and this and another person are going to stand next to these two poles and you three are going to one, one tie at one, not at a time go through and make something out of us, right?
Speaker 1:So me, they are going to sit here and we're going to pick a position that we're going to stand in for a significant amount of time enough time for three people to completely tie them up through three hanks of rope, one out of the time to do that, and it's me and two other people and it was like I was losing my mind inside. So I was like oh man, I have to improvise over somebody else's rope and I have to come up with solutions for things, and the whole time these two people are uncomfortably standing in this location, and one of them is quite what I would literally consider one of the best rope people in Austin. But you know, getting through that, it was like it gave me a brand new type of freedom of being like oh, I can do whatever I want, safely, of course, but like I was like there's way more than just like half hitches and single colon ties and TKs, like you can make all kinds of things.
Speaker 3:Well, there's a lot of. There's a lot of gatekeeping, I think, in rope and it's and I try to tell people that rope is not rocket science. A rope is is kind of like. It's like music. I mean, you could learn on a piano to play chopsticks in about 10 minutes right, and that is music right. And so you can learn real rope in a small amount of time and use that to have fun safely relatively safe. That being said, the more you practice, the better you get, the more you're able to achieve. And so don't don't be intimidated by it. If you don't suck at it first, you're never, you're never going to get good at it, true of everything.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, you think Harry Houdini was into rope. So do you think Harry Houdini was into, like, rope play, because he was always tying himself up?
Speaker 1:And let other people do it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and like I think that's how he died too.
Speaker 3:Yeah, rupptridge spleen while he was and goped under water Good. One of my early internet searches used to be and I want to say that I am 98% hetero, and so much of it by. If I use pronouns, it's it's from my bias, but so Ruppus for everybody. Though just because I talk about a woman or her being in rope, ruppus for. But interrupting myself, I used to search the internet for women escape artists so I could see when I just to see if they could escape your knots.
Speaker 3:Yeah Well to see him bound before that.
Speaker 4:Watch them.
Speaker 1:We get creative and take the stuff out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, how long? What is your longest rope session? Like, what is that longest amount of time you spent tying somebody up?
Speaker 3:That question gets asked a lot. I have done intimate rope with people that lasted an entire weekend. That was not a single tie, but we made a pack that I would have rope on that person for the entire weekend, 48 hours. Some of that was pretty simple and some of it was pretty complex, but any particular tie I think the longest that I've had somebody in a particular tie is like two hours. Usually it's more like 45 minutes.
Speaker 2:And if it takes 45 minutes to tie somebody up, how long do they hang out in that?
Speaker 3:tie. It depends on what you're, what you're doing. Sometimes suspensions will take a long time to set up and then you get them in the air and you know they may only be there for a minute. So if you're taking photos, get it. Get it done quickly.
Speaker 2:Yes, I've noticed that the one I've observed it at Shrine or somewhere usually takes a long time to get them up and then as soon as they're in it, they're like mess with them for 30 seconds and then take them right back out.
Speaker 3:Well, if it's 30 seconds or a minute, then something is not quite right, unless you're going for something extreme. But those things that are not quite right happen all the time, and so you should be prepared for a suspension till the last 30 seconds or a minute. The longest suspension that I've done is probably I've done an hour. Oh, in the air for an hour, yeah, wow. And there's suspensions. And then there's suspensions. I mean, if you look at a hammock that's made out of rope, that is a rope suspension. Now, most Shabari is not nearly that comfortable. On purpose it's supposed. Some people say it's supposed to hurt. I say that it's only supposed to hurt if the bottom wants it to hurt or if everybody has agreed that it should hurt.
Speaker 2:Interesting.
Speaker 3:It's usually going to be uncomfortable.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're about it an hour. Is there anything that you think is important to say to people who might be listening and be into rope or want to get into rope? Like what's the most, no pressure, but like what am I trying?
Speaker 1:to ask what's the most important thing about rope that anyone could ever know?
Speaker 2:Say it right now, that's what I wanted to ask Don't be stupid.
Speaker 3:I already said that, but I would say, if you want to start this type of thing, if you're lucky enough to find it to be in a place where they have local rope groups, if you're an Austin, come to Austin Rope Slingers or nearby, come check us out. We do stuff every Monday and there are places, groups like Austin Rope Slingers throughout the country. If you are not lucky enough to be in one of those places, seek out. You can find some great resources on the internet, but I always ask people the question if you were trying to learn how to ride a bicycle, how many internet videos would it take for you to?
Speaker 2:learn. What a great analogy.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so you're not going to learn everything from watching a video, and so the most important thing that a rope top can have is a willing rope bottom, and so that's, that can be difficult for some people. That's, you can't learn to play the piano without a piano. You can that.
Speaker 2:True fact? Yeah, Question for you. We have this segment of the show called Facy Tries it, where I try every king possible that we talk about. Would you be willing to tie me up?
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:Fuck yeah.
Speaker 3:And beyond that, you know it's. I mean fuck yeah, that's. You know. Fuck yes or no? Yes, fuck yes, but I mean we would need to negotiate, but we could do that offline.
Speaker 2:I love negotiating. Would you be okay if we filmed it? Yes, amazing, fuck yeah.
Speaker 4:I love this.
Speaker 2:I've always wanted to be tied up to. This is the first case he tries it where I'm like this is what I want to do. So, yeah, let's chat offline. I'll get to him so you can contact him, so, and I'll connect with him and we'll figure out how to get to them.
Speaker 3:Okay, Well, I'm on. I'm on the internet all over the internet. I've got SpetLife is Jake underscore wing on. I've had like four Instagrams now, so I think it's just Jake underscore wing, underscore IV for four. And then on Facebook, I'm just Jake wing Does.
Speaker 2:Instagram keep shutting you down.
Speaker 3:Three times so far yeah.
Speaker 2:That's how you know it's a good page. Thanks, do something right, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the last one I had. I was playing their game trying to, and I got up to like 19,000 phones, so oh fuck, yeah, Amazing.
Speaker 2:Well, all right, jake, this is incredible. Thank you so much for guessing on our podcast. I know to, since I've seen your name for a while and trying to get you on, so we really appreciate you coming out and talking about it oh yeah, yeah, and if you love the show, feel free to become one of our patrons on Patreon.
Speaker 2:But you can find the link to that on our website, little renegadefilmscom. You can also make a one time donation on the website. We also have a form that you can find on the website. You can already get gadefilmscom. You go to podcasts, you go to talk to me. You'll find a link to a form you can go out. If you want to be a guest on the podcast, if you suggest somebody that you think would be a great guest, if you have topics you want us to discuss Kings we haven't talked about. I've been doing that. Fill it out and we will do it. So head over there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and on that end, speaking of being a band, we will be doing a talk dirty to me, only fans so we can show some of the Casey Trizards and some content that we're not going to do here. For example, right after this, I'm going to be showing Stephanie and Casey the poem that I wrote that has a religious lean to it, and if you want to catch that reaction, that will be one of the first things that we put up there. Yeah, yeah, please go check it out.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So thank you all you sexy beasts for listening in. Until next time. Let's all not be stupid, but also tie one another up. Sounds great, there, you go All right Bye.
Speaker 5:All right, Bye. Talk. Dirty to Me is a podcast by Little Renegade Films. It stars Sarah Marie Currie, Casey Sammie Casey why don't? You sound real sexy while you do it, Do I no?
Speaker 4:why don't you oh?
Speaker 5:why don't I?
Speaker 4:Yeah, like you remember how you read your synopsis, yeah.
Speaker 5:Oh, you want me to do it like that. Yes, okay, genius, okay. Talk Dirty to Me is a podcast by Little Renegade Films. It stars Sarah Marie Currie, casey Sammie, tosan Alifaso and Stephanie Spiegel, with silent contributions by Taylor Novak. Title and closing themes by Tosan Alifaso. Follow us on the social medias at Talk Dirty to Me pod and for more of our offerings, go to littlerenegadefilmscom.
