Texturism and Black Men: Duke, S-Curl, and Black Men’s Identity

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Hair isn’t just style; it’s code, history, and identity. In this episode on texturism and Black men, we sit down with Darius of Premium Fade League to explore how styles like Duke and S-Curl shaped Black men’s identity, masculinity, and ideas of what looks “professional” or “clean.” From the 70s through the 90s and into today, we unpack how texture became tied to acceptance and survival.

Darius shares his personal journey, barber-chair insights, and the technical truths behind fades, waves, porosity, density, and grooming standards that disproportionately police Black men. We also examine how corporate rules, pricing, and maintenance reinforce texturism, and why understanding motivation matters more than altering texture.

If you care about Black hair, Black men, texturism, and identity, this conversation offers clarity, language, and perspective.

Stay connected with Darius by following his social media accounts below:

Instagram: @premiumfadeleague

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@dariusnelms

Books Available: Amazon

Transcript

Setting The Stage: Texturism Defined

SPEAKER_05 0:00

Welcome back to Hair What I'm Saying. This season we're unpacking texturism, not just where it shows up, but how it lives in us. And today we're talking about a chapter we don't always revisit, honestly, the 90s and the way black men were chemically altering their hair with processors such as dukes and S curls. This conversation isn't about trends or technique. It's about what those choices represented acceptance, safety, masculinity, and sometimes survival. We're also drawing parallels between black men and black women because while the pressure around texture shows up differently, it often comes from the same place. I'm joined by Darius, a barber and barber educator based in Austin, Texas, of Premium Fade League to help us reflect on what that error reveals about identity, self-image, and how far we've come and how far we still have to go. Welcome to the Hair What I'm Saying podcast. I'm your host, Kenetra Stewart. Today, for the second time joining us, we have Darius Nims of Premium Fade League.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

What up, what up? How are you? How are you doing?

SPEAKER_05 1:01

I'm doing well. Thank you so much for accepting the invite once again. You know, I had to have you on the show to discuss this important topic. I couldn't think of no one else.

SPEAKER_00 1:11

Well, I appreciate you.

SPEAKER_05 1:13

Because you got that old school but that new school way of being a barber, and I think that's very important to mix the two. Yeah. Because we can't leave the foundation out.

unknown 1:23

Nah.

SPEAKER_05 1:23

The foundation is, you know how important a foundation is for anything in life.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

Oh, without the foundation, you crumble.

SPEAKER_05 1:29

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 1:29

Yeah. That's right.

SPEAKER_05 1:31

And so even the information that you push out on Instagram where you're constantly educating, even to the simplest things as far as disinfecting.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:40

You know, that's important to show people. Like, I really take pride in what I do besides how you look.

SPEAKER_01 1:45

Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:46

It's also the prepping, you know, to make sure that we f we're following these safety, you know, precautions to know that you are well taken care of. Right. So yeah, so I just really admire what you do, you know, out here for the barber community.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

I appreciate you.

SPEAKER_05 2:01

You're welcome.

SPEAKER_00 2:02

Oh, also thank you for all that you do for the beauty community.

SPEAKER_06 2:04

Thank you. I'm trying.

SPEAKER_00 2:05

Look, I'm trying. Many years you've been consistent with the pod, with the podcast. You've been bringing on many guests.

SPEAKER_05 2:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

Doing wonderful things, just spreading great awareness.

SPEAKER_05 2:14

I appreciate that. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 2:15

Especially for the black and browns.

SPEAKER_05 2:17

Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 2:18

We appreciate you for all that you do.

SPEAKER_05 2:19

I'm trying. I am trying my best. It's not easy, but you gotta show up. It is what it is. If you start something, stay consistent, see what happens to it, and just go with it. And these conversations are needed. You know, you you have a lot of them behind the chair. Right. I love them too. And so it's it's information that people need to know. Yeah. You know. So yes, indeed. So before we get started, what do you mind reintroducing yourself to the Hair What What I'm Saying podcast?

Meet Darius: Barber, Educator, Father

SPEAKER_00 2:49

So I'm Darius Nelms, as Kenitra said, owner of Premium, Faith League. I've been a barber for over 10 years. Um I just kind of fell into it. I never desired to be a professional barber. I just kind of started cutting my own hair out of necessity. And one of my best friends was uh a barber. I'm not gonna say he was like licensed in a shop, but he just was really, really good at what he did, which I always give credit to him. Um he doesn't take pride in being a barber either. Like he's kind of like one of those in the dungeon, if you know you know type of barber, you know, but he he's not gonna post on Instagram. Like you'll never see his work unless you see it walking around on a client.

SPEAKER_06 3:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:27

Um, but he taught me everything that I know relative to fading and cutting hair. And so from just kind of that foundation, I just kind of took that and I fell in love with the business aspect of it when I was at Texas State University, getting my business degree and uh did that, and I just tried kind of married the two.

SPEAKER_06 3:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:45

And so I just keep trying to push the the barber industry in a in a positive direction.

SPEAKER_06 3:50

Yes, you do.

SPEAKER_00 3:50

So that way we can just kind of have like positive reinforcement, especially with the public, you know. So I just try to create a great experience for for my clients. Um, an experience that they hadn't had before um through consultations and free consultations and intake forms, different things like that to help me do my job better.

SPEAKER_04 4:07

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 4:08

But to also like give you an expectation, like, hey, like this guy's is serious about what he does. That's right. That's who I am. Um father, husband.

SPEAKER_05 4:16

Um got a new baby on the way. Congratulations. I'm so happy for y'all. Y'all are too well.

SPEAKER_00 4:21

We appreciate it.

SPEAKER_05 4:23

Y'all are doing well. Young couple to boy and a girl, it's just perfect.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

You know, it's perfect. So, yes, that that too. So just balancing life with business and faith, God, all of all of the above. It's it's all well.

SPEAKER_04 4:40

So that's your wife still doing bridal hair?

SPEAKER_00 4:43

Here and there. Like she's just more in the corporate real estate space. So that's good. She's an area sales manager, which is a kudos for her. She's worked her way to that point, so she's doing well with that. Like she still dabbles with hair here and there, but most of her time and energy goes to that to that real estate stuff. So that's what she's doing for DB, DRB builders.

SPEAKER_06 5:03

DRB builders, okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:05

Yeah. So, or DRB homes is more so what they call them, but I call them DRB builders, but yeah.

SPEAKER_05 5:10

Well, congratulations to y'all. Y'all are doing wonderful things. Y'all are growing and evolving. Obviously, everything, y'all are growing, but sure. Family's growing. Then I asked you. Still young. Then I ask you where you're done, and you like, I don't know. I'm like, well, you got your pair.

SPEAKER_00 5:25

I know. I know.

SPEAKER_05 5:26

Like thinking they are more than that.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

But the Lord's work might not be finished.

SPEAKER_05 5:29

That's right. I heard that.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

I'm here for the ride.

SPEAKER_05 5:33

Hey, maybe I I think I stopped the Lord's work. I was like, if your choice is your right.

SPEAKER_00 5:38

I'm here for it. I'm here for it.

SPEAKER_05 5:41

I was like, yeah, well, that's it. Yeah. And no more. Yeah. For sure.

SPEAKER_00 5:44

She might be in the in the same boat with you.

SPEAKER_05 5:47

Yeah, it's a lot.

SPEAKER_00 5:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 5:48

You know, so I can understand even if someone decides on one, you know, it it is, you know, physically and emotionally. 100%. Especially when you are a committed parent.

SPEAKER_01 5:59

Right.

SPEAKER_05 5:59

Now, if you dabbling in and out, you know, you ain't that dedicated. It's not a lot of your energy. That's right. It's not a lot of your energy. But when you are committed, dedicated, and you're showing up every single day, even when you don't feel like it, it's a lot.

SPEAKER_00 6:13

You know, so that's So shout out to the moms. And the dads too.

SPEAKER_05 6:16

The dads too. They're still showing up in these spaces as well. You know, I'm like, child, that's it. I hope you don't.

SPEAKER_00 6:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 6:24

Because Kenitra is there.

SPEAKER_00 6:25

Yeah, for sure. For sure.

Foundations, Safety, And Professional Standards

SPEAKER_05 6:28

Um before we get into the questions, I did want to ask you a personal question about your journey with your own hair. You know, um, you know, related to texturism, of course. Have you ever had any experiences around texturism? Not really.

unknown 6:46

I don't think so.

SPEAKER_05 6:46

No. Would?

SPEAKER_00 6:48

No.

SPEAKER_05 6:48

And that's why I want to have this conversation because I'm curious to know if black men are even experiencing texturism.

SPEAKER_00 6:54

And we'll talk about it a little bit in this podcast. I'm I'm gonna kind of paint the picture in a different way. Okay. Because it wouldn't be labeled as texturism. Yeah, it wouldn't be labeled as texturism. Yes and no. Right. But like I said, we we can dive into it when we kind of commerce a little bit. But for me in my personal journey, this is actually the longest that I've had my hair short in wavelength. I've always had like a fro of some sort. Like my entire life, I've always had a fro. Like every picture that you could look at me in from high school on down, always had a fro.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_00 7:25

So like in high school, like I was really, really big on having a flat top. So like that was my that was my cut of choice or what they would call a Boosie fade. So how Boosie wears his hair now is that hot is real high and tight. That's how I wore my wore my hair in high school. Um prior to that, like early, early high school, like I would say, like eighth grade freshman year. Um I was really into like having a mohawk.

SPEAKER_05 7:46

So Okay, yeah, that was a Mohawk. That was a Mohawk era, like Roscoe Dash, like that was kind of the thing.

SPEAKER_00 7:52

So I would get the get the designs on both sides of my head. I would go to Target, get the got to be glue, the gel, and I would like really kind of spike it so I could maintain some uniform shape. Yeah. Okay. So I did that. And then prior to that, it was just kind of always having like just a fro that I kind of just shape.

SPEAKER_05 8:08

So Was it a blown out fro or was it a curly fro?

SPEAKER_00 8:11

Not curly. It was like blown out, like I didn't put effort into blow blowing it out. I just picked it out. Picked it out. You know what I'm saying? So I would go to the barber, get an edge up, maybe get a taper on the back and the side, and just kind of keep it simple like that. But yeah, that's I've always had longer hair. Yeah. Always.

SPEAKER_05 8:25

So what was the transition for you? Like, what made you decide like I want to wear low?

SPEAKER_00 8:30

When I graduated college, I just did it then. Like I I don't know, I can't even recall me telling myself, like, I'm tired of having a fro. Like, I think I just cut my hair off, and that's just what it was. Like, it was not for any particular reason. Okay. I think it was just a change that I did, and I just never went back to having longer hair. Yeah. And I think like having shorter hair now because I cut my own hair. I've always cut my own hair. But having shorter hair is easier for me to cut on myself.

SPEAKER_07 8:54

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 8:54

So I think like just kind of going through that process of like maintaining a shorter look, that's like way easier for me than trying to have to have a fro and trying to like that's a whole nother whole nother assignment that I hadn't even really doubled in like that. So yeah.

SPEAKER_05 9:09

I was trying to tell my son that because he cut his locks. He did. He did. And I said, well, you know, this is more maintenance. Yes. Because you want to grow it out. Yeah. You know, he just wanted loose and long now.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

Right.

SPEAKER_05 9:20

And he wear most like a pick, uh, picked out fro. Right.

SPEAKER_00 9:23

Sometimes Does he sponge it at all? Yeah, sometimes we'll sponge it.

SPEAKER_05 9:26

Yep. Sometimes we'll even define the curls. It just depends, you know. But uh he's seeing that it's more work now. I said, I told you. I was like, you should have just held on to them locks. I know. You know.

SPEAKER_00 9:36

And that's what I tell uh moms with sons. Like they kind of have this dream. I even tell my wife this. But like they have this dream for their son's hair, like this, the texture for their hair. Like they want it to be natural to them. Which I'm all for, but I'm like, that is a lot of work. And I even tell my wife this. I'm like, we gotta cut our son's hair. Like if you ain't willing to do it every day, because I for one, I'm not gonna do it.

SPEAKER_03 10:02

Especially with you being a bar, like, I wouldn't take papers to it and cut it off.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

I mean, but I don't want to look like little Bill, you know, like they don't want the And I'm like, man, the boy gotta go through, he gotta, he gotta go through a process, right? Yeah, don't want him looking like little Bill.

SPEAKER_03 10:18

Nah, we don't want no little Bill. But we love little Bill though.

SPEAKER_00 10:22

But the thing is, we can as men, we consider it character cuts. So and Bill's character within the young man as he grows.

SPEAKER_07 10:31

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 10:31

To like have a low maintenance hairstyle, and when he reaches the level of maturity to take care of his hair, then do it. I'm not saying that it's anything wrong with mama taking care of his hair.

SPEAKER_05 10:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:43

But the hair is really a father and a son thing.

SPEAKER_05 10:46

It sure is. So I even love to see the fathers bringing the sons to the barbershop, not the moms. Yeah.

Personal Hair Journeys And Maintenance

SPEAKER_00 10:52

Yeah, so I think like that's kind of what I try to promote. Like, hey, like, cut his hair like because we know little boys don't like bathing. You know, like they just they just go through a phase where like hygiene and appearance is just not there. What what what makes them start caring about it? You know, yeah, like so they don't care about that, and then we get into um, you know, the process of actually caring, you know, washing the hair. And then of course, when the hair is longer, it takes longer to dry. Like, so now you're getting into these long processes. Yeah. And I try to tell my wife, especially with her being a mother and then having like this intensive career career path, like I try to tell her, whether she list listens to me or not, is it listens to me or not is another conversation. But what I try to advise her on is the idea of like make life simple.

SPEAKER_06 11:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:42

So when it comes to this little boy, like, don't let that be another burden that you have to work, you know, and so we had a family debate over Christmas with my family about do we think we should cut his hair or not. And it was four to three that we should cut his hair.

SPEAKER_05 11:59

What was four?

SPEAKER_00 12:00

That we should cut it.

SPEAKER_05 12:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:01

So four out of three said that we or not four out of three, four out of seven said that we should cut it.

SPEAKER_05 12:06

Four out of seven.

SPEAKER_00 12:07

Four out of seven. Yeah. So we won. And the and it was really the men that was like, especially when his father's a professional man.

SPEAKER_05 12:14

Four out of seven, the four. Gotcha. Because when you said four out of the three. I'm sorry. Yeah, I've got you now. Out of seven people, four said and three said numbers. Yeah, gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 12:23

Yes. So I'm a Lamb person.

SPEAKER_03 12:25

I hate numbers. I love letters. I don't like, I like words, I hate numbers.

SPEAKER_00 12:29

So uh, you know, it was three men, including myself, and then it was my mom that had voted that we should cut his cut his hair as well. Of course, mom did. And then my dad was like a a non-present vote, but he would have voted to cut his hair as well. So that really it was like five.

SPEAKER_05 12:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:45

Five to three.

SPEAKER_05 12:46

Most are going to vote, you know. So he still has his baby hair, like that velvet.

SPEAKER_00 12:51

No, he has a he has a f- Well, like in the never got he's never had a haircut, right?

SPEAKER_05 12:56

Never had a haircut.

SPEAKER_00 12:57

Like he has like a texture fro, literally.

SPEAKER_05 12:59

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's it's about time then.

SPEAKER_00 13:02

A more natural fro, let me say. Not texture fro, more of a a more natural fro flow.

SPEAKER_05 13:06

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 13:06

Fro. I'm tripping. I'm tripping. I'm just jumbling all over. We're following.

SPEAKER_05 13:11

But um I I just love the first haircut. Yeah. You know, I think they all should experience at a very young age, you know, the first haircut. My son, first haircut. Ooh, I mmm. I didn't go. You didn't go? No, absolutely not. His daddy took him. And when they came back, he was so pink and red and flustered, and he couldn't get a nice little even fade because he was acting up. It was so bad.

SPEAKER_00 13:40

But I mean, that's even I always tell dads too, to like just kind of start bringing your sons to the shop.

SPEAKER_03 13:46

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:47

Or even, you know, see, he's bald, so he wasn't coming to the shop.

SPEAKER_05 13:51

But he was thinking if I'm pulling out my clippers and, you know, shaving my head and he's right here, he would at least be, you know, used to the sound. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 14:00

So that that that was a little bit more of a dilemma then um with your husband being bald, so he wasn't even going to the barbershop. Like he wouldn't get any beard work or anything done? No, he wasn't. Everything at the house.

SPEAKER_05 14:08

Because he was in the military. Yeah. So that's all off. You know, he's just shaving it all off, leaving a little mustache, and then he was bald, so yeah. Yeah. It just, it didn't work out, you know, for our son. Yeah. Because he had no hair. Yeah, not oh, not the second or the third. I think.

SPEAKER_00 14:23

Oh Lord, it took a couple trials.

SPEAKER_05 14:24

It took a yeah, it did. It was a trial and error thing. It took about um, I don't think the first time he did not cry, we had moved to Virginia.

SPEAKER_00 14:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 14:34

And he was, he had just turned two.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 14:37

But we didn't get a lot of haircuts in between because he was just so stressed out. Yeah. So we just like, nah, it's all good. I'll just figure out how to braid this stuff up.

SPEAKER_00 14:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 14:46

Which he would sit there for the braids. I think it was the clippers. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:49

More times than not, that like it's just that sound, especially coming close to the ear. Yeah. It definitely is.

SPEAKER_05 14:54

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, how do ideas of good hair versus bad hair show up for black men?

SPEAKER_00 15:03

Is it a thing? Right. Um I think it's more of a thing for women.

SPEAKER_01 15:08

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 15:08

Um, really for women.

SPEAKER_01 15:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:10

But I also think, too, that's really a conversation that is just not that just in the black community that has kind of become a theme that I honestly think we should avoid. You know.

SPEAKER_05 15:20

You think we should avoid the conversations?

SPEAKER_00 15:23

Like, well, I think we should avoid labeling the good hair versus bad hair.

SPEAKER_05 15:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 15:26

Because for one, you you have no control over that.

SPEAKER_05 15:29

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 15:29

So, I mean, what are we talking about?

SPEAKER_05 15:31

Like But you know it's a thing, though.

SPEAKER_00 15:33

It is a thing. It is a thing. It is a thing. But I don't I don't see it um talked about as much with men as I do with women. Women. And I think women are more sensitive to it than men are.

unknown 15:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 15:47

What about when a black man is looking at a black woman's hair?

SPEAKER_00 15:51

That yes. That's different. 100%. Uh-huh. 100%. Yes. But that's what I'm saying. But do women look at black men and do the good hair versus bad hair thing?

SPEAKER_05 16:03

No.

SPEAKER_00 16:03

That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_05 16:06

But when whenever a black man does it, how is it perceived? How is it perceived? Like, are y'all looking at, you know, black women like, oh, she has the good hair. Does she she has the bad hair?

unknown 16:15

Come on, come on.

SPEAKER_00 16:17

Okay, okay. So look, I I would the answer to that question, I would say yes. Mm-hmm. I would say yes. I think that that's fair. That's fair and factual. Okay.

Is Texturism Different For Men And Women?

SPEAKER_05 16:28

And I mean, we do it to each other as black women, you know, unfortunately, you know.

SPEAKER_00 16:35

Okay, so I know that you you've kind of been talking about this over the last couple of episodes with other hairstylists and those that kind of specialize. So just for the sake of this episode, and even for those that are in my audience that may be listening to this, define texturism.

SPEAKER_05 16:52

Texturism, it's really closely linked to racism. Just on a texture, you know.

SPEAKER_00 16:58

Right, relative to the hair.

SPEAKER_05 17:00

That's right. You know. So we tend to look at curls that are looser and make those more ideal. And then the curls that are tighter kinkier. Or kinkier. Right. Yeah, those are not so ideal. Right. You know. So that's what texturism is. Instead of accepting hair that is just hair.

SPEAKER_00 17:19

Right. It's just hair. It's just hair. Like you can't I mean, biologically, you can't do anything if you can't control that.

SPEAKER_05 17:25

Absolutely. And instead, you know, we do create these biases, this racism towards it. It's literally a racism for hair. For hair, literally, you know? Yeah. And so unfortunately, we experience it. Yeah. You know, it is a part of our journey. You know, I I did grow up with in the South, in Louisiana.

SPEAKER_01 17:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 17:46

We didn't have these conversations a lot in our house. Right. But I did hear them outside of the house. Like at school and stuff like that. That's right. Like, oh, she has the good hair, you know. Right. Oh, her hair nappy. Right. You know, or even his hair nappy.

SPEAKER_00 17:57

And nappy is like, that's one of those kind of terms. Uh-huh. Which I think that if you can be a person that like understands, like, when we say nappy, sometimes it can be in jest. It can. Like, it can be. We're just talking. Like, it's just kind of linguistically African American vernacular English. Like just being nappy. But context always matters. That's right. It does. So when we say nappy, we could be saying saying it jokingly. Like basically. Even in a good way, too. Yeah, we could. Yeah. It depends. Go go go call me happy. You know, go do something with it. Right. You know, as opposed to walking around looking a certain type of way.

SPEAKER_06 18:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:35

Like you let yourself go. But I think, again, that's within context.

SPEAKER_05 18:40

It is.

SPEAKER_00 18:40

And it can be used out of context, which goes back to the texturism form.

SPEAKER_05 18:45

Exactly. I know Jamaica, they nappy means happy. Yes. That's right. Why you say the context matters. So um, but we know over here that, you know, mostly. Especially related to hair and not related to you as a black person. It can be very derogatory. It can be. You know.

SPEAKER_00 19:07

It can be.

SPEAKER_05 19:08

And so that that's what that's how I define texturism in so many ways. Yeah. That's good. Yeah. Okay. Were Deuce and S curls functioning as more than just hairstyles for black men during that time?

SPEAKER_00 19:21

I would say no. Like they were strictly socially acceptable hairstyles at the time. And it's kind of like for lack of a better term, it's kind of monkey see monkey do, like and I think that's kind of cultural. Like you take on what your culture accepts. And so what our culture was accepting at the time, especially for black men, was that style. Um I think from the 70s going into the 80s, it was very jerry curl, S. Curl, do Type of hairstyles with length length. Yes, length. Stiletto wearing men.

SPEAKER_02 20:11

What do you mean by stuff?

SPEAKER_00 20:12

Like men that were wearing like the heels, like the like the claws and like the platform. The platform, not stilettos.

SPEAKER_04 20:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:24

Like the platform type of shoes. Excuse me, not the platforms. I misspoke on that. Not the stilettos, but more so the platforms where they were doing that, they were wearing like the really ruffled bottoms relative to style.

SPEAKER_06 20:35

Right.

SPEAKER_00 20:36

Where today we may look at that and look at that as like kind of being feminine.

SPEAKER_06 20:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 20:41

But at that time It was very masculine. It sure was. You know what I'm saying? It was very masculine. But I think that combination of style, um, clothing with hair, it created a combination. So now when you get from the 70s to the 80s, you lose the outfits and you're just more so with the hairstyles. That's right. Especially like when you get closer to the West Coast, which for the conversation of this podcast, I want to use like NWA as an example. Mm-hmm. As a case study. Come on. Where you get more of like the Reebok wearing. I mean, you can even go to East Coast rappers. They were doing fairly much the same thing. You get the Reebok, you get the Adidas sweatsuits, but they still had the hair. They still had the hair. And so I think that's a transitional period where you see black men going from the platforms and the loose-fitting attire, you know, ruffled bottoms, ruffled wristware. Bell bottoms. Bell bottoms. That's what the See. Thank you for coming to the bell bottoms. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 21:49

But you're describing it. I'm just coming in.

SPEAKER_00 21:52

So yes, bell bottoms. You go from that to like more tight-fitting clothing relative to the jump shoot jumpsuits. Because that would be considered tight in comparison to what the men in the 70s were wearing.

SPEAKER_07 22:03

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 22:05

So you have like the jumpsuits, you have the track wear, the track.

SPEAKER_05 22:09

Like that windsuit.

SPEAKER_00 22:10

You know, windbreakers.

SPEAKER_05 22:12

Yeah, windbreakers. That's the break.

SPEAKER_00 22:15

But they still had the hair. And not only did they have the hair, but in the 70s, the men just wore the hair. Like they just had the hair. No head garment.

SPEAKER_07 22:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:25

You get into the 80s, they started with hairs.

SPEAKER_07 22:27

Yeah, the caps.

SPEAKER_00 22:28

They had the caps where there was a kango.

unknown 22:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

Ron DMC, even though Ron DMC himself was bald. Or um What's his name? Uncle, not Uncle Russ, uh, the brother.

SPEAKER_05 22:40

I don't, I can't think of it right now. But I know what you're thinking. And everybody else knows it.

The 70s–90s: Style, Music, And Identity

SPEAKER_00 22:44

But he was bald. But nonetheless, they were wearing Kango. A lot of them will wear the bald caps too. Right. So that's when you start kind of getting to the East versus West type of how they looked alike. Um, you know, I think more East Coast, they were wearing more Kangos.

SPEAKER_06 22:57

Yes. They were.

SPEAKER_00 23:00

West, they were actually wearing ball caps. Baseball, you know, with the LA. With the LA Dodgers, whatever it was, type of fits. Yeah. Um, and so I think from from the 70s to the 80s, you see that transition style generally, but the hair still remained.

SPEAKER_05 23:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:15

Because it hadn't phased out of the hair yet.

SPEAKER_05 23:17

That's right. Um, and so yeah, that's kind of kind of where then you get into the 90s, and then it's all about the dukes and the S curls, but keeping it low.

SPEAKER_00 23:24

Keeping it low. Yeah. To where it's like, because like you said, in the 70s it was longer. That's right. So I feel like it kind of went from long, medium, to short short.

SPEAKER_03 23:33

It did. It did.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

Over a you could kind of say a 30-year period. Yeah. Right. So from if you want to start from the 70s. It ended at the end of the 90s, yeah. 30-year period of. So I think it was a 30 period a 30-year period of long. Like we go, we go let it flow and we're going to let it show.

SPEAKER_07 23:48

Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

To like, okay, we go kind of maybe cut it in half. Yeah. You know, in the 80s, to where in the 90s, when you get to like the late 80s, where I would say like 88, to like maybe like 92-ish.

SPEAKER_06 24:03

Yes. Yeah, but 92.

SPEAKER_00 24:04

It was like very short, but like you could just see the just the bottom of it below the brim of the hat.

SPEAKER_05 24:10

Yes. You know what I mean? Depending on how we wore the hat. That's right. I know my brother, he did have the like a kinkier curl to the point where it rolled up.

SPEAKER_01 24:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 24:20

It did. It did. And we, unfortunately, I'm not uh proud to say it is, but I'm gonna say it. Um, we made fun of him. And we did call his hair nappy. Okay. But my grandmother quickly corrected us. I think I was about eight or nine. And she was like, his hair is not nappy. His his curls are just much tighter than y'all's. Right. And that's what y'all don't understand. You know, and so she's like, if you brush his hair, you will see that.

SPEAKER_01 24:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 24:45

And so she was like, we just have to keep up with his a little more. Like, we we got in trouble for that.

SPEAKER_00 24:49

You know, so we quickly salute to Granny. Absolutely. Salute to Granny.

SPEAKER_05 24:53

You know, we quickly unlearned that texturism right then and there. Right. You know. And it even opened my mind up more, you know, whenever she did correct us for making fun of him. But I had another cousin who was processing his hair chemically at the time with Dukes.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 25:08

And he said, Ain't nothing wrong with his hair. All we gotta do is run down Walmart, get him a duke, slap it in there, and I'll teach him how to get some waves. Right. You know, not even understanding you can create waves with his texture. Right. You know, right.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

I mean, it takes some work.

SPEAKER_05 25:21

It takes some work. That was a shortcut. That was a chemical process, and it was a shortcut, right? And so, um, and that's what he did. And he literally dedicated his time to making, and he's a my cousin is actually in Austin.

SPEAKER_01 25:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 25:34

Yeah, he actually dedicated his time to make sure that his hair got those waves that my brother wanted. And he did, you know. He actually taught him how to take care of his hair. Okay. You know, uh, shout out to DK, he did it, you know. Um, so we we did experience some texturism within, you know, our own house. Yeah, now that I'm thinking about it, we're having this conversation, it's coming back for me. And um Yeah, only towards him though. You know, only towards him because he was the one with the kinkiest hair. Right, you know, out of all of us. Um Yeah. And I I just wanted to share that, you know, I do know somebody that it that did experience it. You know, he was uh if I was like nine at the time, he was like two. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 26:19

Not saying that he remember or don't remember, but you know, I don't know if it did affect him. But we're talking about putting a chemical processor in his hair at the age of two when we should have just worked with his hair, you know. And um I know someone who faithfully got him. Like I'm talking about like how we would get relaxers back in the day.

SPEAKER_01 26:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 26:40

But he was he would send his friend inside Walmart to get the processor because he didn't want people to see him getting it.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 26:49

Yeah. So I was I was very, you know, I that was intriguing. Was his friend black? Yeah. Okay. His friend, his friend didn't care. You know, he walked right in it.

SPEAKER_00 26:58

Yeah, he cared more than his friend did. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_05 27:00

Yeah. But his friend wasn't chemically processing his hair.

SPEAKER_00 27:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 27:03

You know, so Yeah, I I just I do know some have experienced it to a point where they are a little ashamed of whatever texture it is that they are born with, you know, to where, you know, some use it for style, some use it as a like an era, a movement. Just want to to be a part of the culture more deeply. And then some did it because they were ashamed of their texture, you know. So um I was just curious, you you never had that before.

SPEAKER_00 27:35

Not personally. We so lucky. I know.

SPEAKER_05 27:37

What about anyone that's ever talked to you about it?

SPEAKER_00 27:40

I hadn't had that experience. Not with like and I I have I have asked classes.

SPEAKER_05 27:46

Where did you grow up?

SPEAKER_00 27:46

In the Houston area. In Houston.

SPEAKER_05 27:49

That's way different from southern Louisiana. Yeah, so y'all probably, you know, if anything, y'all were more together.

SPEAKER_01 27:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 27:56

You know, not against, you know, yeah. And everyone's experience is gonna be different depending on where you're like the region. That's right, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:05

It's definitely definitely regional.

SPEAKER_05 28:06

That's right. That's good, though. I'm I'm glad to hear someone didn't, you know, experience this.

SPEAKER_00 28:13

I was very, very Afrocentric with my hair. Like I never cut it. Like I said, I I may have, I think in my life, where I am now, and then when I was younger, like I had maybe three times where I had like my hair cut low.

SPEAKER_05 28:28

But more times than not. You had a fro.

SPEAKER_00 28:30

I had a fro. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 28:32

What do you think about wearing a fro today as a black man at your age? If you wore it picked out with a pick, how do you think people would perceive you? Anybody.

SPEAKER_01 28:43

I know, that's a good question.

SPEAKER_05 28:47

I mean, I think- Without even knowing you. Just you walking in a building, you have a fro and a pick. Because back in the 70s, that was a part of our culture.

SPEAKER_00 28:55

Like you black and you probably don't care.

SPEAKER_05 28:57

Right.

SPEAKER_00 28:57

You know, that's probably the I mean, and it's not just with the fro, but it's like even like if you like wear your dread, like unkept. You know, like if you're not getting like a fresh retwist and like you literally just like wear your hair like just like J.

SPEAKER_04 29:11

Cole.

SPEAKER_00 29:12

Just like J. Cole, um, one of my one of my friends, Marquise, um he wears his hair similar to Jay-Z, but it's longer.

SPEAKER_05 29:21

And it's kind of like it's almost like those Florida locks. Like a lot of Florida lock in there.

SPEAKER_00 29:26

Some people consider them matted together.

SPEAKER_05 29:28

Mm-hmm. They do. They take the locks and they mat them together and have like five or six locks. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:34

Um so his hair's like that, but he's in education though.

SPEAKER_05 29:37

Um, and they and it's still okay?

SPEAKER_00 29:40

Okay. Like for like he he's very he's himself. Like, he doesn't subscribe to the systemic barriers or issues that will potentially put poise them or position themselves to be in front of him.

SPEAKER_06 29:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:54

You know, so for him, I think he just he is who he is.

SPEAKER_06 29:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:58

He's been wearing his hair like that for years. Like probably. I'd probably like say maybe eight years.

SPEAKER_06 30:08

Eight years. That's a long time. It's a very long time. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 30:11

Um even with his beard, like he doesn't get his beard groomed, like it's it grows how it grows.

SPEAKER_06 30:15

Oh, wow. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 30:17

He's very, very not like very, very natural. Yeah. He no trims, no edge-ups, like none of that.

SPEAKER_05 30:24

Where does he live? He lives in Houston. Houston, yeah. I think it depends on where you live too, you know, how you can be unintentionally perceived. Yeah. I do know the Black Panther movement, the hair was throwed out.

Language, “Nappy,” And Context

SPEAKER_00 30:36

Correct, which that was gonna be one of my other case studies to the questions that you were asking.

SPEAKER_05 30:41

Like, yeah, so let's not start. Let's stop. Let's stop. Let's move to the next question. Okay, because I'm sure whatever you say, I'll be able to say what I was gonna say. So let's just move on. Okay. All right. At the root, do you think black men and black women were responding to the same message about texture?

SPEAKER_01 31:01

At the root.

SPEAKER_00 31:04

I think um again, I would say no.

SPEAKER_01 31:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 31:09

I think at the root, no.

SPEAKER_07 31:10

Um What is the root for you?

SPEAKER_00 31:15

Like what do like what is the societal standard?

SPEAKER_06 31:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 31:20

You know, I think that's the root. That's the root. Especially for like black people living in America where everything is kind of gauged by our counterparts, like they kind of are the standard of like what is acceptable or like what is deemed um as acceptable.

SPEAKER_07 31:38

Right.

SPEAKER_00 31:38

You know, hair, clothing. I mean, we even get we bring babies into this world where we they have to measure up to a percentile.

SPEAKER_07 31:48

Right.

SPEAKER_00 31:49

Where our counterparts are the standard for those percentiles.

SPEAKER_05 31:53

Mm-hmm. You know, absolutely. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:54

So I would not fair.

SPEAKER_05 31:57

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 31:57

Because not all babies are created equally.

SPEAKER_05 31:59

That's right. Um so Especially when it comes to health.

SPEAKER_00 32:02

You know, so we're born into okay, this is the comparative conversation of standard that we have to have. And they can't say a word. They don't even know that they're here yet.

SPEAKER_07 32:13

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 32:14

And they're born into that. So I think that that's the root. Um and again, this is just my opinion from what I know. I don't know everything, so let me just So I'm always open to being challenged and hearing other people's perspective if my analysis of the root is wrong.

SPEAKER_05 32:33

I don't think it's wrong. I think it's whatever your experience is. Yeah. And that's just gonna be the root for you. You know, we could talk about the root, we can take it all the way back to Africa. If we're gonna talk about the root.

SPEAKER_01 32:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 32:46

You know, it just depends on where the root is for you. Yeah. And then that's when we come up with all these different perspectives and we put them together and they all collectively mare together.

SPEAKER_00 32:55

Do you think um the ro do you think that the root is the same for black men and black women? Like relative to the texturism and just kind of going through that change?

SPEAKER_05 33:04

Yeah, in some ways I do. It but it it's just because now with your route, I don't. But with my route, I do.

SPEAKER_01 33:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 33:12

Um, I'm thinking more of uh back when back in back in Africa, you know, when we were slaves and just the oppression.

unknown 33:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 33:22

And I believe eventually we branched away from the ideal of what the root for each other is.

SPEAKER_07 33:29

Right.

SPEAKER_05 33:30

Um, but the up the oppression of not being able to celebrate our hair no matter what the texture is, for a black woman, a black man, in some ways I think it is the same. Just from there.

SPEAKER_00 33:42

Yeah, and and I think like even for men, I think men, especially black men, the black community, one of the the black community's greatest influence for me, I think for men and women, um, is music. Right. And so I think that once black men started wearing their hair, you know, dope S curl, J curl, like just kind of that era.

SPEAKER_06 34:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:07

I th like music is the one way to influence the black community.

SPEAKER_06 34:10

It is.

SPEAKER_00 34:11

Now that now that's a root of going back to Africa. Like, that's just how strong music is for our culture.

SPEAKER_04 34:17

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 34:17

Like, really, no matter the genre or the s or the style of music, music is like in our DNA. Like that's who we are. Like rhythms, like that's who we are.

SPEAKER_04 34:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:28

And so I think that those that have always had a had a voice in music kind of set that tone for, like, you know, like a Rick James or somebody like that. Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 34:41

You know, yeah, yeah.

Style Or Survival: Why Chemically Process?

SPEAKER_00 34:42

And they kind of set that tone for what the style is going to be. And I think that for the most part, black men, um, and you can speak to it for black women, kind of follow suit, like with what was trending at the time.

SPEAKER_05 34:56

Black women follow uh, you know, trends as well. We do. Um, like the 90s was uh was the relaxer era. We were all relaxing our hair. Yeah. In the 80s, we were, we were more it was like in between. You know, we were still wearing it naturally, throwed out from the 70s, but but we also still pressing it, making it straight, just not chemically alternate.

SPEAKER_01 35:19

Right.

SPEAKER_05 35:20

I feel like that picked up more like in the mid-80s than then into the 90s, because I know like salt and pepper had straight hair, and that was definitely chemic chemically processed. And eventually now we're all doing natural. You know, so I I believe we tend to follow, you know, as as well, but it's just in a different way from black men, you know.

SPEAKER_01 35:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 35:42

When y'all were doing the Jerry curls, we were doing them too, but it's just wearing it different. But we, you know, but mostly I know in the 80s we were doing mohawks. Both of us was on the same pathway then. We were wearing the mohawks where it didn't look like a mohawk. Or not a mohawk, I'm sorry. It's the shag. Yes. Like that shag. Um, what is it called? I know it's a shag, but what else did we call it before? It was a shag. I don't know, but you know, the short at the top, long in the back. And they were that was a Jerry curl uh hairstyle. And then they evolved that into the relaxer, where it was they get the relaxer and you curl it at the top, and then you leave the bottom, you know, just with a little bevel. Right. You know? Yeah. I I would never be able to cut a haircut like that, where it's a pixie at the top and then it's long in the back.

SPEAKER_01 36:30

Right. Yeah. And then it still look good. I know. You know? I know.

SPEAKER_05 36:33

So in many ways, I think similar and it it this would be a round table discussion. Sure.

SPEAKER_00 36:41

You know, more than you said, like you have to bring everybody's experiences together. You do.

SPEAKER_05 36:44

And from different eras. You know, as well, in order to get the the meat and the potatoes of it, you know. So in some ways I believe we did we do, and in a lot of ways I believe we don't. I believe we're more vocal about our hair experiences and the trauma that's revolved around it, and we are more vulnerable than um I f I believe black men are, or maybe black men don't care enough. That's not their thing, you know?

SPEAKER_00 37:14

Yeah. And again, I think that black men don't care. Like they don't they're not as they're not as sensitive and concerned about it as black women are.

SPEAKER_07 37:23

Right.

SPEAKER_00 37:24

I think that's kind of the polar opposite. But again, let's keep going, because we'll we'll get into that part. Let's keep going. Okay, okay. We'll get into that part in a minute.

SPEAKER_05 37:35

What did having a certain texture signal socially back then for black men?

SPEAKER_00 37:41

It signaled style.

SPEAKER_05 37:43

I think so.

SPEAKER_00 37:44

I think I think it signaled style. Mostly, right. Mostly, yeah. For men.

SPEAKER_05 37:48

Especially when you think about Bobby Brown.

SPEAKER_00 37:51

I know.

SPEAKER_05 37:51

That accident gumby haircut. But it was like a thing. And then black men start rocking it.

SPEAKER_01 37:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 37:58

You know, and I think even he had a chemical process. You know, that takes me back to the story that I told you about the guy that would have his friend to go into Walmart, right? Okay. We can obviously tell there's a chemical that has processed his hair, right?

SPEAKER_01 38:13

Right.

SPEAKER_05 38:14

So why do you think he was scared to go get the processor himself?

SPEAKER_00 38:19

I know. Um I can't speak on that. Like, it I think it's funny.

SPEAKER_05 38:24

What do you think? Even though it may not be true to his feelings.

SPEAKER_00 38:28

I don't know. Cause like you said, we would know. Yeah. But he's scared to go in the store and get it.

SPEAKER_07 38:32

Mm-hmm. I guess it's like, um. I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 38:41

I'm like, I've always went in in the store and got my little relaxers and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00 38:45

I don't know about that one. That's I don't know. You don't know. I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 38:48

I like I'm Especially when we know you have a processor. It's it's obvious.

SPEAKER_00 38:52

It's obvious, yeah. So what do you think? It's not it's not that. It ain't straight. Like it's not with the little way. It's not it's not yeah. Um I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 39:04

Yeah, I don't know. Okay, all right. Back to what was in my back to what was in my So you said more about style. Yes. I brought out the Bob Bobby Brown.

SPEAKER_00 39:11

Bobby Brown like that, like in the 90s, I was actually watching a video on YouTube. Actually, went back, and this was before you had even asked me to come. This was probably like two or three months ago. But I just so happened to come across my YouTube feed.

SPEAKER_07 39:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 39:22

Um and it was talking about styles at that time. Um and to get that Bobby Brown hairstyle with the design in the back. In Atlanta, Georgia, they was charging$40 for that hairstyle in the 90s.

SPEAKER_06 39:36

Excuse me.

SPEAKER_00 39:37

$40.$40.

SPEAKER_05 39:38

And they're mad to pay$40 today for anything.

SPEAKER_00 39:42

I know.

SPEAKER_05 39:42

And we're talking about the 90s in 2026.

SPEAKER_00 39:47

The crazy part is they were going there because they wanted to be stylish. That's it. So they they they didn't like the$40, it is what it is. Yeah. But this is what I want. That's right. Nowadays, men, they want a certain Look, they don't want to pay for.

SPEAKER_05 40:02

Nobody wanna pay. They ain't just the the men. It's the women too. No one wants to pay for these certain looks. And I'm and they're evolving.

SPEAKER_00 40:10

Yeah. On it. They're changing quickly.

SPEAKER_05 40:14

Quickly.

SPEAKER_00 40:14

Quickly.

SPEAKER_05 40:15

Quickly. And if you're not evolving with the times, you don't get left behind, you know? And I don't think they understand the extensive education that we have to go through to pay for these classes. These classes are not cheap. I know. In order to keep them with the latest trends. You know?

SPEAKER_00 40:31

So And if you're not taking classes, the amount of mistakes that you make to master the particular thing that is in style. That's right. Because some people don't take classes. They just practice. Or they just can trial and error, like whatever. That's what you're doing. You know, so winging it. Winging it. But again, like I think too, like you have to pay for that experience and that expertise as well. That's right. Like if I made many mistakes to get this right, like somebody had to be the recipient of my bad product. That's right. You know what I'm saying? My my my bad skill.

SPEAKER_05 41:03

And some people are just naturally self-taught. You know, I can look at it anytime.

SPEAKER_00 41:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 41:08

And figure it out.

SPEAKER_00 41:09

Give me two or three trials and I got it. You know. But again, you have to pay for that.

SPEAKER_05 41:14

You sure?

SPEAKER_00 41:14

Because it's a God-giving gift.

SPEAKER_05 41:16

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 41:16

That wasn't free.

Power, Perception, And The Afro Vs. Lineup

SPEAKER_05 41:17

No, not at all. So what do you think Al Sharpton was doing it for?

SPEAKER_00 41:23

Oh Lord. You threw me for a loop on now. Not Al Sharpton.

SPEAKER_05 41:28

You remember he had his slip bag and the salt and pepper? He would have the rollers. Like it looked like he was, I think he was using rollers to set it at night and then comb it out.

SPEAKER_00 41:38

Well, it was um, not Bobby Brown, was um what about uh James Brown, yes.

SPEAKER_05 41:43

Okay, so I'm glad you brought it up. Because those two, you know, James Brown was the reason why he did that.

SPEAKER_00 41:48

I know.

SPEAKER_05 41:49

So they was going to see the president at the time, and James Brown told him, you have to, you know, do something about that hair. I know. You gotta straighten that hair. He was like, because when he said, he said, no, this was actually a comedian that said this. But what James Brown was trying to help him understand was when your hair is relaxed, they are relaxed. Relaxed. Correct. Yeah. Correct. He was like, so he was like, we, we, we're going up here to handle some business. So you have to straighten your hair.

SPEAKER_00 42:16

There goes your answer. That's your answer.

SPEAKER_05 42:19

That's the answer, right?

SPEAKER_00 42:20

That's the answer. When your hair is relaxed, they are relaxed. That's a 100% fact.

SPEAKER_05 42:26

Yeah, it is. That's a hundred percent. And he told him at that time, you know, basically you need to rela uh relax your hair.

SPEAKER_00 42:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 42:33

And he just talked about the experience.

SPEAKER_00 42:35

Yeah. You know, so Which I think that goes into the what you were saying about the Black Panthers. Um like that Afro, calmed out, perfectly sculpted, black power, like that. And it's intimidating. That's very militant for black people at least. Um now, keep in mind, you can make anything look militant. It's just about how it's perceived. Because in the same way as the Black Panther Party was like that, at the same time, the nation of Islam was completely different. Oh the nation of Islam didn't wear froze. They were very clean-cut.

SPEAKER_01 43:12

Um, but they wore suits with the motas.

SPEAKER_00 43:15

That was militant. And they walked in formation. And they walked in formation. Sitting roles like it was the aura. So you can argue and say that, like, not even the fro is really what makes it militant.

SPEAKER_05 43:25

Yeah. No, not at all. Because those came with the movement.

SPEAKER_00 43:28

It came with the movement, but those are two groups at the time, right, that are at the height of the civil rights movement. The Nation of Islam was very, very pivotal with the civil rights movement. With bringing black men back into the home. Yes. Junkies and addicts, you know, bringing them back into a community where they can be, they can have an accountability system.

SPEAKER_06 43:52

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 43:53

And and they can get back to what the nation of Islam will consider the kind of the original religion, if you will. But again, the nation of Islam, they have rules that if you're in the nation of Islam, you can't wear a beard.

SPEAKER_07 44:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:06

You can make a beard look militant if you want it to be. That's right. Because the Greeks, the Romans, the Persians, like all of them, they wore beards, like the Vikings, they were known for their beards. That's milit. So again, everything is based on perception. It sure is it's not a matter on if a black person is doing it. I mean, it is, but it's not. But it's about how you perceive it. It's about how society chooses to perceive it.

SPEAKER_05 44:27

Yeah, which we have no control over.

SPEAKER_00 44:29

Which we have no control over. So you have the Black Panther Party froed out, all black, you know, very kind of strong demeanor relative to how the hairstyle is.

SPEAKER_05 44:41

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 44:42

Then you have the Nation of Islam, no beard.

SPEAKER_05 44:44

Clean cut.

SPEAKER_00 44:45

Clean cut, like maybe a part. That's like probably the most leeway that they give you.

SPEAKER_05 44:49

Ooh, if they give you that much leeway.

SPEAKER_00 44:52

Other than that, it's like real low, like ball fade, you know. But still perceived. Mustache at most. Yeah. You know, no chin hair. I mean, even um the most honorable Minister Lewis Farrakhan, who's the head of the Nation of Islam, he had a part.

SPEAKER_03 45:09

He did. He had a part of it.

SPEAKER_00 45:10

Which is why I said that's kind of this where they kind of gave you a little leeway. Because even the NOI men today, they some some of them wear like a horror part. But the way that Minister Farrakhan's hair is, his hair is kind of natural. I would assume it's naturally wavy.

SPEAKER_05 45:27

Right.

SPEAKER_00 45:27

I don't, I don't know if that's a big thing.

SPEAKER_05 45:28

I don't know if that's a process or a night. That's one I don't know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:32

I don't know about that. But when you always look at his hair, his hair always has like that good weight. There I go. See, I'm I'm violating everything that we talk about. I said I said the good wave. But you you just kind of see that bump in it. Yeah. You know, and then he has the hard part and he's and it's very cut and clean on the side. That's the way. You know, like that's just how his hair always looks.

SPEAKER_05 45:57

Yeah, it sure does. But it doesn't matter. You caught yourself. I did. You caught yourself. Awareness. That's right. It matters. I just think we just I I've done it too. Yeah. You know, more times than I would like to admit. You know, I'm I'm also unlearning as I'm inviting people on the show. You know, that's the whole point of the season.

SPEAKER_00 46:18

That's the part of, that's the benefit of awareness.

SPEAKER_06 46:22

It is. Because some people don't know. You don't know.

SPEAKER_00 46:25

But when someone makes you aware of it, which being on this podcast with you is making me aware of it. And even preparing for this podcast started making me aware to the point where now, as I just said it, I'm able to correct it on the spot. Now, that doesn't mean I won't say it again. I'm not saying that. You have to practice it. You have to practice it. And like I didn't intentionally just say that just now. Nah. Like that just that just kind of rolled off my tongue.

SPEAKER_05 46:49

And I think you could be that can be perceived in a lot of different ways. I mean, it was literally perfected. Yeah. Like his ways were. You know, they had a nice little persistent.

SPEAKER_00 47:00

I know.

SPEAKER_05 47:02

So good can be perceived however someone receives it. Yeah. You know, so Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:08

So I was just using that example to show that everything is about perception. Everything is about appearance and what you choose to label it as. And you have to keep in mind, like, we didn't label either one of those case studies that I just provided relative to the Black Panther Party or the Nation of Beast. No, absolutely. We didn't label any one of those two. Nope. Those labels came from outside perceivers.

SPEAKER_05 47:31

That's right. Not understanding what the movie was about or not wanting to understand what it was about. Because it was a positive movement. Whether they were walking around with guns, that was for protection. I know. You know, that was not to harm anybody. Right. And I believe the whole collective of just seeing the outside and not trying to understand the message.

SPEAKER_00 47:54

Right. Because if it was all about the fro for black power, which the Nation of Islam and the Black Panther Party, why why did the Nation of Islam adopt that? Because it wasn't about that.

SPEAKER_07 48:06

That's right. It wasn't about that.

Corporate Grooming, Beards, And Bias

SPEAKER_00 48:08

And the Nation of Islam was not succumbing to like this is what makes society comfortable or happy. They weren't subscribing to that idea either. It was their own individual collective identity.

SPEAKER_07 48:22

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 48:22

Simple, like, so it had nothing to do with the hair, really.

SPEAKER_07 48:25

No, it did not.

SPEAKER_05 48:26

It had nothing to do with.

SPEAKER_00 48:27

It had everything to do with that individual vision and mission.

SPEAKER_05 48:30

Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 48:31

And I don't think it was good or bad.

SPEAKER_05 48:33

I don't either. I don't think it was good or bad.

SPEAKER_00 48:35

It's just all about it's what it's what they wanted.

SPEAKER_05 48:38

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 48:38

It's what they wanted.

SPEAKER_05 48:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:40

And I think that's how we should all view hair. Like, however a person chooses to wear their hair, like it's not good or bad. Like that's how to the debate of texturism, like that's how they wear their hair. Yeah. That's how their hair is.

SPEAKER_05 48:52

Like I think it was all about unity. For sure. You know, just wanting to be uniform.

SPEAKER_00 48:56

Unified front front, right?

SPEAKER_05 48:58

Yeah, uniform. Like we're gonna wear all black. This is how we're gonna wear our hair. You know, I think it was for aesthetic reasons to know that I belonged to something. I don't think it had anything to do with anything outside of that, you know. And that's pretty much it. No different from uh when I was on the cheerleading squad, we had to wear our hair a certain way. You know, it was just like as a team. It's a team.

SPEAKER_00 49:19

No matter what your hair was, this is what we have to do.

SPEAKER_05 49:21

This is what we have to do. Unfortunately, fortunately for me, I don't know if that's fortunately. I'm not gonna use that word. I know when I was on the squad, we mostly had straight hair. Okay. You know, so however the uh sponsor requested us to wear our hair, it was easy for us to do. Now, today that would be very challenging because I did have a client who had who has naturally curly hair. She's biracial and she was forced to straighten her hair in order to be in unity with these girls. So when I said fortunately, it was kind of like, well, I didn't have to go through that, but still that's not fortunate because why would that be fortunate just because you altered your hair differently so you were able to move through it eas easier, opposed to her who was coming to me to get it straightened, who was coming to me to wear wigs, get wigs done just because they told her she had to wear her hair straight in order to be in unity.

SPEAKER_00 50:16

But based on that uniformity that you speak about, I think that's like like with the latest administration, Trump being in office and like him assigning new military personnel to be over the military. I think that's what the big rift is because it it's going back to yes, we want to be uniform. But up under Biden, black men didn't have to shave.

SPEAKER_07 50:39

Right.

SPEAKER_00 50:40

Which is a that's still texturism, except it's just on the face. It is, but you know, that's when you shave the hair, our skin responds a lot more aggressively than counterparts. That's right. So to make everyone conform to that one standard, whereas I'm not saying that, let's just say for white men, for instance, I'm not saying that they don't have skin responses to shaving because some may um but the percentage is much lower than it is for black men.

SPEAKER_04 51:10

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 51:10

Where black men literally could go to the doctor and get a prescription or a pa or I don't know how how they would call it in military terms.

SPEAKER_05 51:18

It's called, oh gosh, ooh, and I'm a veteran, y'all. Is it a waiver? It's a waiver, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:23

Yeah, it's like a waiver that you could give to say, like, hey, like because it is a scientific term for black men that get these hair bumps that we would call it in the black community amongst other men, like you don't want that Nestle crunch.

SPEAKER_04 51:37

Like Oh, Nestle crunch.

SPEAKER_00 51:38

You don't want like that that Nestle crunch look on your face because you shaved. Because for instance, my uncle and my father-in-law, both of them are bald, but they can't use the same razor.

SPEAKER_07 51:49

Right.

SPEAKER_00 51:49

So my uncle may can use a three-blade, but my father-in-law has to use a five-blade. A three-blade makes him bump up.

SPEAKER_07 51:54

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 51:55

You know what I mean? And some people they can't use a blade at all. That's right. So, like, you know, but it it's in comparison to the the story about your client who's biracial, like her hair is naturally curly, but she's kind of forced to come to you to get it straightened or whatever. And for someone else, it's easy because the hair's already strayed. But for her, she has to go through all of these hoops and spend time and money that other people don't have to spend to to conform.

SPEAKER_05 52:24

That's right, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:24

You know, and that's that's the tragic part because we're really not accepting people for who they are. For who they are, with something that they don't have control over. That they don't have control over. At all. You know, because you have to think too. Back in the day, like we've always had a beauty standard. Like, grooming has always been a part of history, which makes barbers and and those that are in cosmetology essential to mankind. Like, we've always had a part in society. Even before modern medicine. That's right. Before m modern, you know, doctors and things that like we had an essential role in society. Now, of course, it looked different then than it does now.

SPEAKER_07 53:03

Right.

SPEAKER_00 53:03

But the point that I'm making is we've always been in the business of appearance.

SPEAKER_07 53:09

Right.

SPEAKER_00 53:10

And making something look a certain way. Or, you know, like you said, like just kind of altering an appearance for, you know, whatever reason. So that's that's kind of what it is.

SPEAKER_05 53:20

Yeah, for sure. Also, when you brought up about the beards and, you know, shaving and you having to use a different type of razor, X, Y, and Z, the reason why I would say, you know, uh, I would say people with straighter textures too, you know, it comes straight out the face. I know, I know. Unlike ours, it coils out. And then it coils back into the skin.

SPEAKER_00 53:42

That's where you can get the hair.

SPEAKER_05 53:43

And that's when you have hair bumps. Exactly. And then you have hair bumps.

SPEAKER_00 53:47

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 53:47

And then that's where all this, what you call it, a nestly crunch.

SPEAKER_00 53:50

The nestly, the nestly crunch.

SPEAKER_05 53:51

The nestly crunch. That's how I'm sure that is.

SPEAKER_00 53:54

If he's heard that. Yeah, that's how that happens. It's uh because it comes like when you shave improperly and your face, like, and it doesn't take any time for those bumps to come. They can come within hours of shaving. I mean, it doesn't take a full business day.

SPEAKER_07 54:06

Like, right, right, right.

SPEAKER_00 54:07

They can come four or five, like I did that one time when when they start when in the barbing industry, they just started coming out with foil shavers, right? They started coming out with foil shavers probably about ten years ago, maybe less. But when the foil shaver started coming out, I went and got one, right? And they was like, oh, like it gets like super close to ball, cool, like that. So I go and I cut my hair, and like the part where I did my taper fade, I used that foil shaver to just get it like really, really smooth. Bumped up. Five, six hours later, like I'm talking about like just little bumps all over the back of my neck.

SPEAKER_07 54:39

My God.

SPEAKER_00 54:39

So I had like itching, all of that stuff, you know. I can't use a foil shaver.

SPEAKER_07 54:44

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 54:44

So if I go to a barber, for instance, although I cut my own hair. Right. But I'm just saying, like, if I go to a barber, I have to let them know, hey, I can't take the four shaver. I can't use the four shaver because my skin cannot take that. That's right. Um, so when you talk about shaving standards and grooming standards, like, there's not a one-size-fits-all. There's not a one, and that's one reason why I personally would never go to the military.

SPEAKER_07 55:06

Yeah.

Charts, Porosity, And Real Hair Science

SPEAKER_00 55:07

Because, like You're being disregarded. You're being disregarded. That's right. I've had a beard for as long as I could grow it. I've always had facial hair. Like, when I started growing facial hair, like I've groomed my facial hair. I don't care if it was just my mustache or my chin hair. You're like, I don't care. I'm gonna line it up, but like I've never been babyfaced prior to me growing facial hair. You know? And so, like, for someone to ask me to cut my beard off, like, that's part of who I am.

SPEAKER_07 55:28

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 55:28

You know what I mean? Like, that's that's my that's my attachment to self. And so, which is why I never joined a fraternity in college. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 55:36

Because I'm not shaving. You know, like you gotta look at it.

SPEAKER_00 55:39

I'm not shaving, I'm not, I'm not shaving my hair. Or I'm not shaving my, I'm not like there are some things that I don't compromise on.

SPEAKER_07 55:45

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 55:45

And when it comes to my hair, when it comes to my beard and my facial hair, I don't compromise on that.

SPEAKER_07 55:49

Yeah. Good for you, don't.

SPEAKER_00 55:51

Let me use another example. Um, I have clients, um, client who's bald, he has a beard, his beard can grow, like he can be really like Rick Raw, Rick Ross-like, although he does not like for people to compare him to Rick Ross. But that's just a paint of I'm that's just to paint a picture of how his beard can be. That's thick. His beard can be really, really thick. But he's in corporate America. He always has a joke. He said, uh, once a month, I have to like cut his beard down. Not to like, not to the face, but like I have to sculpt it enough to where it's like really, really low. Because he says, if not, I'm gonna have to subpoena you. Meaning that he's going to have to subpoena me to court to testify that he comes and gets his beard groomed every week. And he and he comes to me every week.

SPEAKER_04 56:38

Because it grows it grows so fast.

SPEAKER_00 56:41

And he's a big and tall guy, black guy. Um, shops in the big and tall section. Like he looks like he's played in the NFL. So he's already in he's already intimidating. Like by the looks of him. Unfortunately. Right. And he and he knows that. He says that. Like he's he doesn't run from that. Like, he knows that he has to carry himself a certain way to kind of keep the people relaxed and not like who's this big bodyguard walking around. Because he is, like I said, he looks like like when I first met him, I thought he played in the NFL. Oh wow.

SPEAKER_04 57:09

Big big tone.

SPEAKER_00 57:11

He's very big. Um, has a beard though, and he always like, hey, it's it's that time to cut it down. Like otherwise I'm gonna subpoena you, and you have to come testify that you that you take care of me every week.

SPEAKER_04 57:20

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_00 57:21

You know, because that's the standard in corporate America. Like, he has to look a certain way.

SPEAKER_07 57:27

Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:28

And it was to the point that you were making about texturism, where I said for men, it's a little different. Because although men are not sensitive to the texturism in the way that you're describing it, they are sensitive and aware of how their appearance matters depending on who they're around. Um, I have a client, um, I won't I won't name him or the company that he works for. Works for a very, very big company in Austin, Texas. If not the biggest company in Austin, Texas.

SPEAKER_05 57:59

And you're saying a lot without saying a lot.

SPEAKER_00 58:02

Right. So he he works for this company, black guy, and he's a manager. And all of his other managing partners are white men. And he has a low haircut like me. You know that our hair grows faster than our counterparts, meaning that we have to get haircuts more frequently. That's natural. Like if a black man does not get a haircut frequently, you will know.

SPEAKER_04 58:32

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 58:33

If a white man does not get a haircut frequently, you will not know. Because like that's their hair is way different. And how it grows and how it looks as it grows. That's right. Our hair, when it grows, it can look disheveled if you don't get it tamed or groomed by societal standards. Like you said about those in Jamaica, they say nappy is happy. Like, so that for them, they don't care about that. That's right, yeah. But for us here in America, he works for one of the biggest companies in Austin. All of his uh managing partners are white. And he will leave like midday. Like he, of course, he'll take care of his work and handle his business at work. Like he don't leave and like he knows when he can leave, right? That's right. Anyways, he will leave middle of the work day, around two or three, come to me to get a haircut, but his counterparts will passive aggressively make fun of him for going to get a haircut. Why? I'm gonna tell you why. They will say things like, oh, such and such is going to get a haircut. We don't know why he can't go to sports clips to get a haircut.

SPEAKER_04 59:35

Oh, absolutely not.

SPEAKER_00 59:36

But they don't understand that.

SPEAKER_04 59:38

Absolutely. They don't believe that. We could never go to sports clips and get a haircut.

SPEAKER_00 59:43

They don't understand that. Um they make a big deal as to why he goes and gets a haircut.

SPEAKER_05 59:49

I do believe um, you know, other counterparts, because I don't think it's just white people, I think it's anybody but black, unless you unless you have. Sure. I believe they don't understand it's a cultural, like it's it's a part of our culture, it's a part of our identity. So I'm not stepping into nobody's sports clips and letting you cut my hair.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:13

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:14

You know, and you know, for them, they don't really care about that as much as we do. They don't. You know, I think it's like just not understanding how deeply rooted it is for us. And there's no way in the world you can pay me to go step in sports sports clips and get back. And I'm talking about you gonna have to pay me some good money to pay the to ease my peace of mind while my stuff grows back.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:36

I know.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:36

But I think it's like it's just a misalignment and you also some ignorance. It's ignorant.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:43

And it's dismissive.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:44

It's very dismissive, yeah. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:46

To like your culture. And I think that black people were for one, we're one of the most resilient people on the face of this planet, but we're all also the most often dismissed.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:57

Right, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:58

Our culture, our culture is often dismissed. And we always have to submit to other societal or cultural standards to kind of ease.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:11

Ease our way in there.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:12

Ease our way in.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:12

Right, for sure, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:13

I don't care if it's with friendships or as w with a with a colleague at work, we are often displaced to have to submit to other people's standard as opposed to people even acknowledging our standard. And so again, men, black men are not s as sensitive to texturism as black women are, but black men are sensitive to their appearance because they know that they will be judged based on their appearance, especially if they want to be successful in America.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:45

That's right.

Waves As Compressed Curls: Myth Vs. Practice

SPEAKER_00 1:01:45

If they want to be. They know. Now they may get to a certain point place like Jay-Z where you have so much money and like. I have money like and and money may not even be your objective. And if it's not, cool. But for most people in in the in this world, money rules the world. The flow of economy rules the world. And so for black men, black men are trying to advance. They're trying to climb up the corporate ladder. They're trying to do all the things that they've never had the chance to do because of the fight. Like we like we're just now able to, and I'm saying this loosely, we're just now able to get an equal opportunity.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:27

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:28

Now, whether it's equal, that's a whole nother conversation, but I'm saying like we're able to, you know, get to a place to where we at least maybe have a small chance. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:37

With without certain systemic barriers, although some of those structures and barriers still exist today. Absolutely. Yes. But one or two of us are getting our foot in the door a little quicker, you know, than in the past. And but when you get your foot in the door, like that doesn't mean that you all good. Oh no. You know, like there's still like, but it goes back to the awareness of the hair and the presentation and the grooming. If I want to make$250,000 a year in America, I have to look this way. Hence the the, you know, my client that's incorporated with the business.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:07

That's common, yeah, to you.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:08

He he he's a$250,000 a year earner, but it comes at a cost.

SPEAKER_07 1:03:12

Yeah, it does.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:13

He can't wear his beard the way he wants to wear it. He can't let it grow as long as he wants to let it grow. My client who works for one of the biggest companies here in Austin, he can be in management, but he knows he has to look look a certain way. And they're gonna make fun of him for going to get his hair cut in the middle of a work day as he walks out the door. But he knows that by going to handle his business, by coming to see me to get his hair cut and groomed by going back, he's going to be able to maintain his position.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:43

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:44

Because they don't think that that's a deal breaker, because they go get a haircut once every eight weeks. Yeah. And we can't really go more than three weeks without haircuts.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:52

No, that three weeks is actually pushing it. That's 21 days is pushing it. That is. Uh some people can be on a weekly rotation, you know, if they can had the time and the money. But I mean, by week one and a half one and a half, you can start seeing it. You know, so that's very true.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:08

And so I know for me, I've I mastered my art to where I can I can cut a client's hair and I can I can make that cut last for anywhere. Of course, it varies, depending on, because I we are we all know the we have different textures of hair.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:28

That's right. Right?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:29

Like it's 12 different types.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:31

Um so depending on- When you say 12 different types, what are you talking about?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:34

Like 1A, 1B, or 1.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:35

Do you believe in that chart?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:39

For I believe in the chart for the basis of being able to identify the type of hair.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:43

Do you think they're correctly doing it?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:45

I hadn't thought about that. Like not not in that way. I hadn't I hadn't thought about that. Like, um I hadn't thought about that. Because I think that like even when I look at that chart, is I'm looking at that chart from a place of like being able to identify how how either how straight or how curly the hair is, right? Okay. And so when I look at my clients, and even like if you look at that in barber school, for instance, you're at least able to identify the type of people that are sitting in your chair. And if the hair is more kinkier or curlier, the haircut gets more difficult. As opposed to if it's more straight. If it's more straight, sometimes it's said to be easier. And that's not that's not with bias. That's with the level of skill. Because for instance, on a client with straight hair, you can take one guard and you can literally go against the grain and that'd be it. It's gonna be cut. It's gonna cut, yeah. But on hair that is more kinkier, right, that is more curly, you can't just go against the grain, but you also gotta come with it to lay it down.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:51

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:52

So y'all are using it more for a point of reference for, I guess, just to Yeah, it's it's again, it's more of an I not not an identity marker relative to judgment. It's an identity marker relative to the level of skill that you have to have to be able to do it.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:10

Okay, so okay, so it's a little deeper for black women with the curl pattern charge.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:14

So that's see, that's the difference between us and you know, y'all. So when we talk about the sensitivity, when we talk about like even just looking at the chart, it's different.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:22

It's way we actually we're trying to not look at it no more because it's causing more confusion than anything. Okay. Because um products specifically, they are trying to curate these hair products according to said texture. Yeah. And you can't do that. You know, because we have to consider porosity. Porosity, yeah. Yeah, density. And we can't do that by putting the letter and a number and saying, hey, you got one A. You got one A. This is going to retain moisture because you got one A.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:53

Right, which makes the one that can't retain moisture worse. When it's like that's not the case.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:57

Yeah, it's not, it's not science-based. And that's why if you're gonna use it, I guess, as a point of reference to say you fit somewhere here. So according to that, I could see it working in the barber world, but definitely not in our world.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:12

Yeah, that's why I say the sensitivity levels are completely different. It's so good. I don't want the women to be offended by me using the chart.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:19

No, actually, it's more of us hairstylists that are offended by the chart uh versus uh the consumer. Okay. It's more of us trying to debump the chart. I I had to reach out to you know how we have to every year or every it's every two years, we have to renew our licenses, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:34

Mine is up right now, but I gotta get mine done.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:36

I just renewed mine. And I was taking the test and they were using the chart on that test. I emailed them. I was so mad about that. I emailed them and I told them this is the reason why so many curly girls, not just black women, anybody who has a curl or a wave to their texture of hair, they are not being able to arrive to any solutions to their hair care needs because y'all want to reference everything to this chart.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:03

And it don't tell us anything real. I mean, you can use it, I think it's an illusion more than anything. You can use it if you want to, but the way how you help people is getting down to the science of it. Whether they want to accept that or not.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:16

Yeah, honestly.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:17

You know, it's science. Yeah, you know, it is. Yeah, so I hate it so much. Yeah, clearly, because it causes more problems for me than it resolves anything. You know, but I can see you using it for a point of reference to teaching people, especially those who are not exposed.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:35

Exposed to yes.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:36

You know, to a lot of different textures, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:38

Yeah, like I like I use that as a point of reference to say, hey, like, for one, I don't look at that chart as a good or bad chart.

SPEAKER_07 1:08:45

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:45

Even though I uh when I said wave earlier, I said the good wave.

SPEAKER_07 1:08:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:48

I don't use the chart for a good and a bad reference. I use that chart specifically, especially for us that were low haircuts. That chart can clearly, like I can, I can point to that and say, hey, when you see this, anticipate that the hair is gonna grow faster. That's right.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:03

That's right. Like that's why I say that. Yeah, that's why I said like a point of reference. Just a point of reference identity marker.

Tools, Durags, And Hair Longevity

SPEAKER_00 1:09:08

Like when you when you look at this specific number, that hair's gonna grow back faster. Like you're going to see it grow back faster. They're gonna be in your chair sooner in comparison to this, you know, like to this particular It's so different. So different.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:22

Yeah. Um, even when you say the kinkier hair grows back faster, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:27

When it's cut at its lowest.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:30

Gotcha. Thank you for clearing it up. All right.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:32

Yes, I love that. It grows back faster when it's cut lower.

SPEAKER_07 1:09:36

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:37

So if the hair is longer, like don't forget the chart. Like, that don't that doesn't matter. But if your hair is cut like mine, it's gonna grow. It's gonna grow back. I gotcha. And it's gonna and it's gonna look like it grew back faster. Like, and I think that's like based on societal grooming standards, it's like, dude, you need to go get a haircut.

SPEAKER_07 1:09:54

That's right, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:55

Because our 14 days It's not the same. It's not the same. It's like it's like they get double the time.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:01

Yeah. That's just how it is.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:05

It's biology.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:06

You know, well, uh not in that's just the now that has everything to do with the system. Sure. You know.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:11

That has everything to do with the system. Yeah, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:13

So let me correct myself.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:15

Because ain't nothing wrong with our biology. That has everything to do with the system.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:18

That has everything to do with the system. That's right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:21

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:21

Let's see. Um Do you think men were altering texture to be attractive or to be accepted?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:29

I think they were doing it to be attractive. Me too. Yeah, I think they were doing it. Yeah, I think they were doing it to be attractive. Like I said, and I think the the theme is is pretty consistent. Like, I think women have just been more sensitive, and then that's not wrong. It's not wrong for women to be more sensitive to those things.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:47

I believe we caught more of the backlash.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:49

Yes, yes. I agree with that 100%. I think women caught more of the backlash. And it just goes to show you how different men and women are, like how we just view things. Like we don't view things in the same light a lot of the times. We shouldn't. We're different. You know, we shouldn't. We're different for a reason. I I I definitely agree that women, especially when it comes to hair, catch ha has caught more of the backlash relative to hair.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:10

I can I can definitely empathize with that.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:13

Like it and it's very sad. It's very sad.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:16

It is.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:19

I think it's so related to we tie it to beauty a lot too, you know, versus a man. I know.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:29

I like yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:31

Um and that's what I think it is. It's just an aesthetic.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:36

It's an aesthetic. My wife hates when I use that word because I use it all the time. She just hates that I use it. Stop using that word. Stop using that word.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:42

She's like, you said it again. Like, nope and you just follow.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:47

She hates when I say the words.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:49

It's in our language because it's what we do, you know. So it's just what it is, you know. But, you know, she hears you all the time. So that's it's different. You know, I get it.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:59

She she hates it. Yeah, she likes to stop like it. What does she say? Like, she'll like show or she may try to mock me when I say it like an aesthetic, you know, because I always I'm always saying something about it aesthetic. Yeah, but she Yeah, that's that's the inside joke between me and her for sure. Like it's all good. It's all good. It's all good.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:20

What conversations have you heard from your clients behind the chair around Dukes and X curls?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:26

Um, I hadn't heard anything direct I've asked. A lot of them didn't even really kind of participate in that. Because you gotta keep in mind a lot of my clients, like I don't really have I have maybe three clients that are over the age of 45. So all of my clients are relatively young.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:43

Okay, so they probably they skipped that entire era.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:47

Yeah, so for me, even just in kind of doing some research with the older guys that I have, like, they didn't have like in It's funny. What is it? Because even when I asked them about that, it's like when we talk about the sensitivity, it's just like it's just non-existent? Yes, it's almost it's almost like, yeah, like I mean, I don't know what you want me to say about it.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:11

Like We grew up so different. We grew up so different. It they were very sensitive about texture, yeah, black men were, or black young men were, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:21

Like it was just like, and I don't like, and I was trying to gauge, like, is this something that you were ashamed of? Or like I'm trying, I was trying to gauge the responses, but it was like, it was almost like one of those black men shut down things.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:34

Like they don't like they didn't really want to is it that they're not open to being vulnerable about the or is it that it was no experience?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:44

I'm thinking that that they didn't want to be vulnerable about vulnerable about it.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:48

So there is some type of sensitivity with black men with their textures.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:53

That's that's what I was trying to gauge.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:55

That's what I'm gonna think about.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:56

And I was trying to, I was trying to prod just a little bit. You know, without like pushing too far, like why you keep asking me that, you know. Even though I kind of gave them context as to why I was asking.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:08

But I also think too it's like, you know, kind of like just I don't want to talk about that. You know, like type.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:13

But they should talk about it though. I do now I'm really open to knowing how related our experiences are now for real. Because it's like, do you want to talk about it or you just don't have the experience? I think it could be both for y'all.

Pricing, Skill, And The Value Of A Fade

SPEAKER_00 1:14:28

Yeah, and I think too for men, men are kind of they kind of walk on eggshells a little bit because they're trying to figure out like what's safe for me to say versus what's not. You know, like what's my safe space? Which I think now, modernly, I think some, not all, some black men are starting to find that safe space. But I also think, too, that there is another, a reversal to that. And the reversal to that is the black men that don't want to become soft and they think that being vulnerable is being soft.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:03

Soft and it's so masculine.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:05

But they know, but that's really what like they like, man, like that's soft, bro. You know, and that's just and for for those men, they're probably not gonna change. Like they're like they're that's that's their mentality that that kind of allows them to maintain their masculine ego of being because I don't think it's anything wrong with being hard or macho. Like, I don't think it's anything wrong with that. But I think it's space for both. You know, I think it's space for the men that maybe want to have a little bit more conversation, open dialogue about experiences and past experiences and trauma, or whatever it is, and then it's those. It's like, man, like I can't do nothing about that. Man, leave that where it's like. Lee that wear it's sad. I'm a I'm a press forward. You know, so I I think you have you kind of have a little bit of both. A little bit of both.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:50

It depends on, I believe, everyone's experiences too. Like you had a completely different experience, you know, opposed to someone else. You know, I do know, you know, where this one guy, he has two brothers that are biracial, and he's not. So his texture is not like theirs. It's looser. Yeah, one's is looser, and then the other one is more on the wavy side. I would say more like your texture. And then his is more kinky.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:18

And so he do have experiences with texturism where he has tried its curls and all these processes to try to alter his curl pattern to make it looser or more ideal.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:31

And he's not happy with his hair. And and this is a recent thing. This isn't a 90s. This is something that's happening today. Yeah. You know? And he's trying all these different products. I've been suggesting other products. He is trying products that I would not suggest for his hair type.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:51

And porosity level and uh density at all. And I think there's this product overload that's keeping him from reaching the goal. Okay. You know, but I'm I'm trying to figure out is this a thing where you grew up seeing two people in your household with a completely different texture than yours, or are you trying to manage what you have to how it make, you know, to make it look like how you want it to look. Okay. In so many words.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:17

So let's talk about this. Because what you said something that kind of struck something in my mind. Black men's desire to have and produce waves with their hair. Um like if I if I cut a guy's hair down, like if he has a fro and I cut it down. Like I gotta work to get my waves. Wave cow blew my edge. Right, you know. Right. Brush, you know. But that's a desire. Um and my question is why? Now that we're kind of talking about it, like why why is that, like, why is having waves a desire? Like why why is that the goal? I know. You know what I mean? Now I think it's cultural. Like, I think that was kind of like an era. An era, and I think that was kind of like the like the goal status for me. It's like, man, I can I can wait, I you know, I can get waves. But going back to the chart, which I know you hate.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:24

I hate it. But let's go on back to it, chad.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:27

Because a wave is really just a compressed curl.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:31

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:33

So I'm gonna use literally compressed curls. It's a compressed curl. Now, I may use some language that's forbidden on this podcast, but this is just this is just my unlearned language that I think it's okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:44

Come on.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:45

So basically, arguably, arguably, uh huh. Arguably, and this is this is not a generalized statement. Arguably. The looser the curl to a degree, the easier it is to get the wave.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:06

It's not true though.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:07

That's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:08

It's not true at all. I know. Which goes back to my story about my brother. He he never needed that processor, because as soon as we cut it off, all we did was start brushing his hair, throwing blue magic and water on it, tying a wave cap on it, and boom, he had waves. I know.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:23

Arguably. Arguably. That's what's said.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:26

Or at least that's what has kind of Sometimes them curls can be too loose. They can be too loose, I know. Um that's that kind of is what is passed around and kind of floated around. Now, whether you choose to accept that or not, is on the end of the state. What do you believe? I believe that a wave is a compressed curl. Okay. That's what I believe. And so I can, again, I I won't ever tell a client what he can or cannot do.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:50

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:51

But with my experience long enough with hair, I can kind of get a glimpse on if you'll be able to achieve that or not. Like I can give you like a greater percent. Like let's just say I'm 80% right. That's right. It leaves me 20% room. It's the same same thing with beards. Like I have clients that come in, which my wife was saying the other time.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:09

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:09

She was like, Thank you for not having a patchy beard. So for all of my patchy beard, bearded men out there that are attempting to get a beard, I try to tell them, brother, that's not gonna happen. No. But they believe that they can try.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:24

And I always So what are they what are they doing?

SPEAKER_00 1:20:26

Like they just they're trying to let it grow, but I I always educate them and I tell them, I said, bro, the hair on your face grows faster than the hair on your head. It sure does. So, like within a month, you can tell your beard potential.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:40

And if it ain't there, it ain't there.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:43

It's not there.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:44

So Can get like a hair transplant on their beard? On the beard? On the beard.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:51

I hadn't heard of a transplant on the beard. Me either. Yeah, on the hair for sure. But the body. I hadn't heard the beard. I know there are some men that are trying to kind of do the hair unit on the face, which I think is foolish. I hate this. So yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:03

So much.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:05

I would never get into the hair unit game. That's not my thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:08

I remember you said that on the first podcast. So you stayed consistent with it.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:12

That's not my thing. Um, that's not my thing. I I think it's a it's a certain level of manhood. Like you just gotta accept it.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:21

It's okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:22

It's okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:23

Y'all don't get the backlash wicket. It's okay. We're not really. I mean, it depends. You know, your wife made the comment, but not all women are worried about that. You know? Some are, some are not.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:35

But for us, a lot of men are worried about a lot of things when they come to a woman, you know?

SPEAKER_00 1:21:39

So it the b and it comes from so many different angles. It sure does. From men from corporate space or in the boss or whatever to But that's where it starts to me, like the oppression.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:50

It started there, and now we're projecting it towards each other.

Masculinity, Braids, And Perception

SPEAKER_00 1:21:55

You know, so So that's kind of what that is. Like a wave is just a compressed curl. And for a lot of black men, like the goal for getting a low cut is to try to get the waves. Get them waves. And so now I'm thinking, like, again, you're bringing awareness to me with this conversation of texturism, which shows the impact of what it is that you're doing. Well, thank you. It's like now I'm thinking, I'm like, I mean, I have clients that come, like, hey man, like, I gotta I gotta brush to get my waves back. But it's like, like, why is why is waves the goal?

SPEAKER_05 1:22:24

Like, why are waves the goal? Why you just can't get a little cut out?

SPEAKER_00 1:22:28

Why can't the cut just be the cut?

SPEAKER_05 1:22:29

Like, why can't the cut be the cut? Because sometimes the cut is all that's it.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:34

Like, but where is the necessity for having the waves?

unknown 1:22:38

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:39

Is that the gold membership trying to get back in the gold? They send in silver.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:43

I'm like, what's the like? Even for me, like, I'm I know guys that take a brush around wherever they go and they can't bring it. And they constantly brush.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:51

Do you think that's okay for the follicles to be constantly brushing your hair like that? Because I'm just thinking about wear and tear. Yeah, follicles can be very sensitive.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:59

I know. I don't know. Like, I I don't do it personally, which is part of what my hairline is still intact. You know, because I'm not aggressive with my hair, anyways. Like the only time I brush my hair is when it's wet and I do it softly. Like and I have a medium hard bristled brush because I need that hard bristle to like really drag that hair. That's right. Because it's curly. Like you have wavy curly hair, so you need it to drag it. That's right. So, like a soft brush is not gonna do that. But I need a hard board bristle brush to really just drag that hair forward. But honestly, I let my do-rag do more of the work than my brush does. So I I I have improved the quality of my do-rag choice. So I don't wear wave caps. Wave craps, uh wave craps.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:45

They are crap.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:46

They are, yes.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:47

That's why you said it.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:48

Wave crap. Wave caps are crap.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:51

They are. They are.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:52

It's for one, too tight.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:53

Yeah, and then it leaves that border around your forehead.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:57

I mean, the hair is just like just too compressed.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:00

So I've upgraded from just like standard do-rag to like velvet.

SPEAKER_07 1:24:04

Oh, yeah, I know which one you talk about. Yeah, my brother used that one.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:07

It's because the do-rag is thicker. So because the material is thicker, it's going to is is going to lay the hair down in a more compressed way without the tension.

SPEAKER_07 1:24:16

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:17

Because we already know, as you know, that the tension on the hair is never usually good.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:21

No, it's not. Which is kind of protecting the big thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:24

Now we get into the braids talked as a protective hairstyle, as they were saying.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:29

Because it's not there's nothing protective about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:31

There's nothing protective about braids. You know, so again, that's a whole other conversation. It is. They mean you didn't even talk about it, but we're on the same page about that. That's right. Absolutely. We are. You don't want that tension. And so when you get into when you get into just standard, regular made$3 do-rags that you can get at Walmart or Sally's, like you're going to get a very low-quality material do-rag that's not gonna do what you think it did.

SPEAKER_07 1:24:55

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:56

But when you upgrade, and maybe some of the do-rags might cost$20, okay, that's fine. But it is a higher quality do-rag to where it's gonna compress the hair, but in a way that's not putting stress on the hair.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:07

That's right. And that's what you're paying for.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:10

You're paying for the difference in material.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:12

That's right. To take care of your hair. To take care of the hair for longevity.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:15

And that's what I tell clients all the time: like, think about the longevity of the hair. You want to think about like the process that you're doing to make your hair withstand for a long period.

SPEAKER_07 1:25:25

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:26

If you put a lot of stress and pressure, even with products that should not be in your hair, you are shortening the lifespan of the growth of your hair. You sure are. You know? You're shortening that. Yeah. I mean, it's a lot of men that don't even know. Which is when we get into the argument about pricing, which we were talking about earlier. Oh, I don't want to. And it's like, dude, you don't even come to the hair to the barber shop hygienic.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:54

Mm-hmm. And I gotta wash your hair.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:58

And most barbers don't even show you.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:00

They show them. Nope, they're not doing that a lot.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:03

But the fact I do, but the fact of the matter is, you don't even know basic hygiene for your hair. If I ask you what's the point of conditioning, you can't tell me and you don't even use it. Oh, what type what type of conditioner should you don't even know. Oh, I use my girl. I mean, which is fine because she she probably gonna have some better stuff than you're gonna do. Yeah, but still know which why you don't know.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:22

You don't even know why you do what you do. Yeah. I've yeah, I've been educating my son. My son knows.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:26

Should I leave it in or should I win so you like you don't even know the difference and the benefit of either or.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:31

Yeah. And you have to in order to get the results that you are even wanting. That's it. And then when you're not getting results when you sitting in my chair, it's my fault. It absolutely is not.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:41

Right. So again, that goes to again the texturism point of like how are you treating your own hair? Like, let's let's stop the outside noise. Mm-hmm. Like, how are you treating your hair? How do you view your hair? Yeah. And it goes back to the question about like, you know what? Why do I think about waves? Why do I want waves? Like, why?

SPEAKER_07 1:27:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:05

Like, why is my hair, like, why is me not taking care of my hair and doing just the the necessary thing, the necessity like that. Yeah, why is that? Yeah. You know, why am I hair?

SPEAKER_05 1:27:14

It's about style too, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:16

It could be. It could be too.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:17

Yeah, it could be about style for.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:18

But I think for black men too, it's kind of it's like a little status thing too, I think, amongst other black men.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:23

Like, I think black women gravitated to it as well, and then that became a thing. Do you think it's like how curly the hair is or I believe it's the aesthetic of how it works.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:35

That aesthetics.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:36

But it is. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:39

No, I love the word.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:40

Yeah, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:41

I I love the word.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:42

But I believe it's just how it looks. Yeah. You know, how it that's that's literally. It looks good.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:48

So Excuse my ignorance. This isn't just me being funny.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:51

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:52

Um it will fall into like the category of like um like what about like Hollywood waves or something like that?

SPEAKER_05 1:27:57

Like is that is that a term is that that vintage bridal style that everyone is doing now? No.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:04

Okay. No, it wouldn't fall into Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:07

Like the st the style that's sought after.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:11

No.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:12

Because with the Hollywood vintage waves, that's like for everyone.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:18

Like you see even white women get in the Hollywood vintage waves. Waves are strictly for black men.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:25

Yeah. Yeah.

Community Reinforcement And The Hard Line

SPEAKER_05 1:28:27

It is. Yeah. And I do wonder if it's also to be more connected to being a black man. Who knows? I don't know. You know. But um, that's the reason why I would say no with Hollywood vintage waves, because we're all doing the Hollywood vintage waves. Yeah. Aesthetically, if we're gonna compare it just from the appearance alone, I can see some comparison, I guess, like some similarities for wanting it because it's so um highly sought after right now. Hollywood Advantage Ways, I think they're gonna be here for the moment and they're gonna go. They're gonna go. I think it's a trend. And I'm ready for it to die. I'm over it.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:10

You have people that come to you ask for it.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:12

I decline it. I don't wanna do it. I do not want to, I don't enjoy doing it. I'm tired of seeing it on every bride because you can't tell me that you're choosing a look for you. For you. Like when you're doing universal. It's universal. It has nothing to do with you. It's about to me, that's when you come to me on Hollywood Advantage Waves, you just want to be like everyone else. And I know that's b I shouldn't say that. That's just my bias. And I will own my bias. Yeah. But but those are not the brides I'm trying to attract. I'm uh I'm looking for brides who are showing up to me wanting a style because this is who I am. This is who I am, yeah. And this is what I like, and it fits the whole aura of my my wedding.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:56

Some people book Hollywood Vintage Waves, and it don't even match the aesthetic.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:01

It's like, what are we doing here? Yeah. You got too much going on. This is a very glamorous hairstyle. You have a very glamorous dress, you have a very glamorous headpiece, and then you also want a veil, it's just too much to me. You know, I mean, blame it on my little simple ways, you know, but I'm simple too, so the to me, I think it's supposed to marry together.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:26

Nothing is supposed to be defeated. It's clashing.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:29

And I can tell you have good taste because everything looks good, but it just marry well. It's not a lot of things.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:35

Besides the Hollywood waves.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:37

They look good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:38

You know, I just You make it look good, but it's not who you are.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:41

I just, yeah, I believe some people it is. But I do believe I can attract some personalities where I don't want to stand out. And this is what everyone likes now. So I'm gonna roll with what everybody likes. You know, that's my bias out in my opinion. And don't come for me after my opinion. I say this an opinion, I ain't say it was a fact. Right. So don't come for me. Right. Yeah, I'm over it. Yeah. If you can't tell. Um, how did masculinity shape how black men approached their hair back then? Especially in the 90s. Because when you think about, I would use Snoop Dogg for as a prime example.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:19

Which I think he was very different.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:21

Because he wore berettes and knockoffalls and bees and biggest.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:25

That's why I said I think he was very different. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:27

The attire was what you would deem as masculine. So would you call that hairstyle masculine?

SPEAKER_00 1:31:34

Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:36

Come on, Darius. I already know it's brewing up there. You already got something to say.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:41

I think it just kind of falls into actually what you were just saying. I think it was who Snoop Dogg was.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:48

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:49

And who, I mean, who he is now. I mean, because he still has the dr you know, dread braid look.

SPEAKER_06 1:31:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:54

I think it's just who he, like he, he, he was who he was, and he didn't mind standing out.

SPEAKER_07 1:32:00

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:00

Because I don't think that anyone was doing it like Snoop Dogg in that hairstyle way. Like the braids, like you said, with the breasts or the or the beads or the ball at the bottom, you know. Um he was the only really one that was doing it in the music industry, which again it goes back to the earlier point of like we get influenced by music. Now, I don't know anyone particularly that like necessarily copied Snoop Dogg relative to Not a lot.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:25

You've seen like Mac 10 started.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:27

Right, but like it wasn't like a widespread trend that was sought after. Like I don't recall anyone um having braids with the beads. Like I it might be one little person here or there, but like these. I feel like that came a little later. Like it wasn't at that time.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:44

Yeah, it came a little later.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:45

I think maybe like late 90s, 90s, early 2000s. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But like when Snoop Dogg was doing it, I think he was kind of like ahead of ahead of his time.

SPEAKER_07 1:32:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:54

Um and so like even now we kind of see that trend coming back now with the beads, but we see the trend of the men getting braids again back.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:01

Now they're trying to What about the Berettes, you know, with the plastic? You know, I think Drake did that recently where he had like berrts and where you party and got ponytails everywhere.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:12

I know.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:12

Do would you deem that as a masculine hairstyle even though it's on a masculine man though that that don't fit to you?

SPEAKER_00 1:33:22

It's not the masculine about it. Nah, it's it's not uh what the w oh well, I don't want to use women vernacular, because I am a masculine man, but I will say, let me say it with my D voice, it's giving.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:35

It's giving even on somebody like Snoop Dogg and Mac 10.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:40

I know. Do you think um I think with like I think it's different for Drake because he's light skinned. Like I know that's not popular.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:52

I know it's not popular, but so on Snoop Dogg it's more masculine than on Drake.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:58

I would think, I would say so.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:59

I would say so. Is it because of the color? I think it's the skin. What about the mannerism? Snoop Dogg is kind of like he, yeah. I don't label Drake as hard and it's not hard at all.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:13

I know, but I I think even societally, again, this this is uh in parallelism with texturism, like we grouped colorism.

SPEAKER_07 1:34:23

We did.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:24

Like it's the same thing. It's the same thing. But it is So when you look at like when you look at light-skinned men, you think pretty boy, you know, soft and somebody that that's gonna be good to a woman, potentially, or player like.

SPEAKER_05 1:34:41

Player.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:42

You know what I'm saying? It could go either way, I think.

SPEAKER_05 1:34:44

It could go either way.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:45

But then when you see like the darker skinned men, like they have a darker skin tone or whatever it is, like they have a certain thing about them, you know?

SPEAKER_05 1:34:53

Yeah, but it's all kind of biases, it's all biases with the colour.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:55

You know, with the hair, the color, all that stuff. And so I think, you know, like with somebody like Drake, like it looks sweet. Like it, that's just how it looks. And it's like, oh, he's a like you like for instance. Sweet sweet. But like you can look at a light-skinned dude and be like, oh, he's a mama's boy. Drake looked like a mama's boy.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:17

Snoop don't look like a mama's boy.

Influence, Motivation, And Young Men’s Choices

SPEAKER_05 1:35:19

Absolutely not, but you'd be surprised.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:21

I know.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:21

Yeah, you'd be surprised. But from the looks.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:23

But from we're just talking about like how it's perceived. How it's perceived, yeah. Because that's all cosmetics is. Like, it's about like now there's a law of power. Like when we talk about power and our place in the world. Uh-huh. Everything is judged by its appearance. Yes. For sure. You can sit there and be like, oh, I'm not judging. You're lying.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:47

You're lying. You're lying. You're lying. You're absolutely lying. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:51

You judge everything. Every single thing. Yeah. What type of car somebody drives, how their shoes look. Man, I had a client judge me once. I had some um, well, the the so the the headphones that I wear, they go over my ear.

SPEAKER_06 1:36:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:06

And they're open-ear headphones. So that way I can hear what's going on around me without being like tone-deaf, right? So I wear these headphones. I mean, I got them off Amazon for like 20, and they like the best headphones I never had. Like I can, I can listen to what I'm listening to, audio book, music, whatever, while still hearing what you're asking me talking about. I can do everything that I that you can do on um on AirPods. Wow. Okay. He judged me by my by my headphones. What was that? Like I think he's like, oh, like, you know, like what type of headphones are though? But he was asking, like, in a way, like, why you ain't got like basically, oh, like you don't like AirPods was basically what he asked me.

SPEAKER_06 1:36:41

And I'm like, no, bro. Like.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:44

Them things hurt after sitting in your ear for so long.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:47

Which is why I got open ear headphones. Because I can have them in my ear all day.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:50

I don't understand why I have to have a certain airpod.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:52

But that's what I'm saying. But yeah, like something all the way down to a freaking earpiece. To an earpiece. I ain't walking around with no Bluetooth. There ain't no Bluetooth. It's literally just an open ear. And open ear headphones are popular today, by the way. It's like for people that run, like they can be able to get it.

SPEAKER_07 1:37:08

Yeah, you need to be.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:10

Of your surroundings. That's right. As opposed to like having something lost. And you can't hear nothing. You can't hear nothing. That's right, yeah. You can't hear when somebody says something to you, whatever it is. So I have that so that I can be aware of my surroundings. And they are stylist too. But he noticed that according to his standard of like, oh, like, why you ain't got AirPods? And it's like, bro, I don't want to. For why I don't want AirPods. Like, I've had AirPods before, and when they stopped working, I went and got something that wasn't AirPods. Like I, I mean, how the hell ain't gotta explain it to you.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:37

And that's just so sad that I gotta be judged by the type of earwear.

unknown 1:37:41

Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:42

But but you're right. No matter where you go, no matter what you do, everything is gonna be.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:47

So if you say that you don't judge, you're lying.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:49

You are absolutely lying.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:51

If I came in here now, I'm I'm put I'm getting in your seat now. Okay. If I came in here without a haircut, because this time last week I did not have a haircut. If I came in here looking the way that I was looking last week, you still would have me as a guest on your podcast, sure.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:10

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:10

But the first thing in your mind would be like, why he ain't got no haircut? Why he why doesn't he have a haircut?

SPEAKER_05 1:38:16

I don't know. Because there are so many reasons why we do what we do with our hair. True.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:22

Well, you're open-minded. Let me say this the average person.

SPEAKER_05 1:38:25

The average person for sure, that's not in the beating and grooming industry.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:28

And that has the that does not have the awareness that you have.

SPEAKER_05 1:38:31

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:32

That would have the open-mindedness to say, like, oh, well, maybe he's doing something different. That's open-mindedness. Maybe he's maybe he's growing his hair out. Maybe he's happy and snappy. You know, like, if you don't have that and you are conformed to grooming standards today.

SPEAKER_05 1:38:49

Society's grooming standards for a black today. Yeah. It depends on also the era you grew up in, too. Because if you grew up in those in that 60s and 70s, they definitely are concerned about you not having your hair groomed properly and stuff. And um my son just opened me up to a lot of that as well from all the different haircuts and styles that he wanted and the transitions that I had to experience with his hair. Yeah. Because I mean both both of your kids have dreads.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:21

But both of them have had dreads for a long period of time.

SPEAKER_05 1:39:24

And there's a lot of different transitions that you're gonna go through. And stereotypes that you have to deal with with that.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:39:29

Especially depending on the end go. You know, if like he did not want to cut it off. He just wanted to cut it at the point where it was no longer uh locked.

unknown 1:39:38

Oh.

SPEAKER_05 1:39:39

So he still wanted to throw. But there was still a very deep line of demarcation from where the fade was to where the lock started. So he had to look a little weird until that you know, until it all grew together. Yeah. And how long did it take? Not even a month. Maybe a month. Yeah, it grew quick. And um Um, yeah, he didn't have to stay in that face for too long, but it's still uh an eyesore. Man, you know, to see.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:06

I always say this. I I I love who I I love the color of my skin. I love the texture of my hair.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:13

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:14

Because it reminds me of the motherland.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:16

Oh, I'm glad you say that. Keep going. I have something to say about that. Keep going.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:20

It reminds me of the motherland because our hair literally grows naturally. Like, and when I say naturally, everything that's in nature sprouts up.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:29

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:30

Our hair sprouts up and it grows out. Our hair really doesn't fall.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:34

No.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:34

So, in order for our hair to fall, we usually have to use some type of chemically processed formula, some iron, something that really wasn't made for our hair to make it flow with the ground.

SPEAKER_07 1:40:47

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:48

As opposed to go up to God.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:49

That's right. You know what I mean? Like, yeah. I mean, because it's like a tree. It is. And it looks like a tree. It looks like a tree. You know, when you just leave it on, it looks like a tree. It looks like a tree. So on one of my podcasts, when I upload it on YouTube, this girl told me that she was dating this guy with a looser texture.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:41:04

And she told like she would talk about how good, quote unquote, his hair was, and she wished he had his texture and all the things. And he told her, Well, I love your hair because your hair is closer to the motherland. It was like this hair is taking me away from the motherland.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:21

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_05 1:41:21

I was like, that is the most beautiful thing a man could reassure a woman about when she is struggling with texturism. I know. And I was I I was just like, girl, I hope you still wear it and wear it.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:35

I know. I ain't asked for that. But you know, just like that's that's good. That's good.

SPEAKER_05 1:41:39

Like Yeah, he told her that. He told her, Well, I I love your hair more than my hair because it's closer to the motherland. And I was like, Oh, yeah.

Closing Reflections And Calls To Awareness

SPEAKER_00 1:41:49

Like if you think about the way we would naturally wear our hair without having to alter it. Alter it in any way. It would be closer to the motherland.

SPEAKER_05 1:41:57

It is closer to the motherland for sure. Yeah. So I was just like, he opened my mind, you know, just from a view uh like a just a different POV. You know, like why wouldn't you want to be connected more there than anywhere else? Right. You know?

SPEAKER_00 1:42:13

The origin of all things.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:14

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Do you think some of these standards around texturism were in reinforced within the an within our community, the black community?

SPEAKER_00 1:42:25

For sure. Yeah, I I don't think that we've done ourselves a uh a service.

SPEAKER_07 1:42:31

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:32

I don't think we've done ourselves a service. Uh when I think back to like the civil rights movement, like aside from the Black Panther Party, um, there's kind of this little trend that's starting to circulate again within the black male community. Um, especially on social media, about this soft line versus a hard line. Talking about the edge up.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:55

So prior so during the civil rights movement and before.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:58

It was a soft line, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:42:59

Yeah, i which a soft line is really no lineup. No lineup. Correct.

SPEAKER_05 1:43:03

Uh Terrence Howard is infamous for that.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:05

He's very infamous. Yeah. Terrence Howard is like a modern day figure that we can look to where he does not get a hard line.

SPEAKER_07 1:43:09

No, he don't.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:10

Um But another figure would be like Martin Luther King. Yes. He didn't have a Nope. He didn't have a hard line. Malcolm X really didn't have a hard line. So like you I mean, when you go back into, you know, 60s and before, you can see that they didn't have hard lines. Like they did it, there was no, like that box look didn't become a thing until like the 80s. So prior to that, everything was soft, everything was natural. I gravitate more toward that, like as a professional barber. Now, do I do hard lines? Sure. But the ramifications of that hard line is that just that haircut doesn't last as long. So if as black men, if we did not do hard lines and have this expectation, which hard lines is is a is an art form, by the way. Right. It's an art form and it's a skill. If we got away from that and we went back to the soft lines, then guess what? Much skill would be needed for barbering. Now, barbering is still barbering, but what I'm saying is from the skill of softness to hard lines and fading, that is a a very steep slope of skill.

SPEAKER_07 1:44:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:20

That's all I'm saying. So when you talk about pricing, when you talk about, oh, I'm not paying this much for a cup, like you're not understanding that basically fading is exotic.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:29

First of all, it requires a lot of skill set to fade.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:34

Fading is exotic. Like that, that is an exotic skill set. Like that's if if you want to say fading is for the elite. Like it's not for the everyday man. You know what I mean? But I'm just saying that because I think that we need to understand that relative to fading, hairstyle, hard line, soft line, like all of these things are like skill-based. And not every person can do it. That's why you don't go to the state. They might offer it, but because they can't do it. Like they're trying to do something that they cannot do. That's the fading, that's the line. They cannot.

SPEAKER_05 1:45:10

That's why your boy don't go there.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:12

That's why he don't go there. You know what I mean? So again, like when we talk about that, it's it's a matter of the evolving skill of bar.

SPEAKER_05 1:45:24

It does, yeah, for sure. Yeah. I didn't even think about that. I've never thought about that at all. And I, if I'm not thinking about it, the consumers are not thinking about it, which is why they don't understand why pricing is the way that it is.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:37

They don't. Yeah. Like. And I always say, like, even with pricing, like if pricing is such such a thing for you.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:44

Go to sports clips.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:45

You you can. And some people will say that's a weak argument. Okay, I'll take that, but let me take it a step further because I'm I'm never gonna be outdone. So come on, man.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:52

You know what I mean? Yes, come on.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:53

But but if if money is the is the object, if that's the object that's the objection of how much something costs, then why are you concerned about the outcome? Like what I mean, like, yeah, we can say sports clip, but like why are you concerned about the outcome? That's right. Because your your sole focus is how much money you're going to spend.

SPEAKER_05 1:46:15

And if that's the focus, then go to sports clip. Go to sports clips.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:18

Like, why like if m it I mean, why is looking in the mirror such a big thing?

SPEAKER_07 1:46:22

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:24

Why can't you just get it done? Oh, I don't care how it looking, you just go on about your business. Like, why is that not the thing? You know? But the moment that you start getting into preference, then guess what? You start getting into pricing.

SPEAKER_05 1:46:37

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:37

Because you can't have preference. Right. Like you can't have preference without price.

SPEAKER_05 1:46:42

Nowhere. Not just in the industry. Not just in the boarding industry.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:46

If you have a particular, if you have a preference for where you want to live, prices go determine a factor. If you say, you know what, I can only afford$800 rent.

SPEAKER_05 1:46:55

Then price is gonna determine that price.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:56

Then price is gonna determine that factor. Crime. Like all of these other things are going to determine based on your price point. That's right. But if you say, you know what, I want X amount of dollars, I want to live, as my daddy would say, in the high rent district. That's right. You gonna pay. You gonna pay? Crime gonna be low. You're gonna have accessible grocery stores, whole foods. You know, you're gonna have electric cars and vehicles. You ain't gonna have broke down cars all in the driveway in the parking lot. That's right. You ain't gonna have no shoes over who dropped the Kool-Aid.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:26

That's right, that's right. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_00 1:47:28

You're gonna have folks walk on their dogs, smelling grass and touching grass. Yes. Walking and jogging without fear for life. You know, like but I'm just saying, like, so when price becomes a factor, then guess what? That's just that's that's getting into preference.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:45

That's just not the analogy. And it needed to be broken down like that because I've never used that as a justification to why prices are the way that they are in our industry. But that one right there, like if you don't understand that, then you're not gonna get it.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:00

Yeah. Like, or you don't want to get it. You don't want to get it.

SPEAKER_05 1:48:02

That's right. You don't want to get it. You don't want to get it. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:05

And I think too, relative to pricing, people that have money don't complain about pricing.

SPEAKER_04 1:48:10

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:10

And this now, this is not about pocket watching or saying what someone makes or or doesn't make, but this is the this is the place and the position that I've taken relative to our industry and the and our as I would consider the the pricing war. I'm with you if you if you cannot afford it. Right. I'm with you. Yes. As a matter of fact, I'm in arms with you because you should be able to afford it. You should be able to, but guess what? It's not your fault. That's right. Because there are bigger things at play as to why you can't afford it. You know what I'm saying? So I'm with you. I'm not your enemy.

SPEAKER_05 1:48:45

Not at all.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:46

I'm with you. I'm in arms because you deserve more.

SPEAKER_05 1:48:49

I have more than I have a cousin, he says, I don't question no one's pricing when I'm interested in doing business with them. He said the first thing I say is I gotta make some more money. Right. 100%. 100%. And I'm the same way. If I can't afford something, I'd be like, how can I afford it? Yeah. What can I do to earn additional income? Or what do I have? Some some subscriptions or whatever the case, maybe that I can get rid of.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:15

But I'm just that stuff is not necessary. No, but I'm not gonna question your price.

SPEAKER_05 1:49:19

That's right. I'm not gonna question your price as because if I'm interested, I already know it's coming with a good penny anyway. Sure. Because I know how I am. Right. You know, so if I'm interested in your work, I already know I'm about to pay.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:31

Now, am I saying everything should be expensive? No.

SPEAKER_05 1:49:33

No, I'm not saying that either. But sometimes your taste is just naturally expensive. It is. You know, it is.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:38

Like and the intangibles that you pay for. Like you like you want everything your way at your price, and it's not worth saying. It's not a build a builder bear. Like, you know, where you pay$20 for the bear and you get to stuff it with whatever you want. Like it's not that. But I know we kind of got off topic.

SPEAKER_05 1:49:55

Yeah, well, well, I mean, it still needs to be talked about. So, you know, you know, it it's still good information. We're not babbling. Yeah. It's still good information at the end of the day. And it needs to be said. And I can't tell you how many hairstylists come on this podcast and pricing gonna always come up because it's just an everyday thing that we deal with. You know, someone always wanna bargain, negotiate, you know, and why is it like this? And it's just an exhausting conversation at this point with them. You know, it's 2026. Yeah. And you really want to pay$20 for a haircut. That's not gonna happen. I mean, sports clips are gonna be like.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:37

They also argue and say, oh, well, you need to cut more clients. Well, that sounds pretty selfish. Like, why do you want that for me?

SPEAKER_05 1:50:43

I need to go home.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:44

You feel what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_05 1:50:46

You have a wife and two, and a kid and you know, a kid and one on the way. I want to go home.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:50

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_05 1:50:50

But that's just too much on the emotional labor, physical labor. That's a lot.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:55

Man, I I cut less clients today, like per when I say per day, like and I still go home and I'm like some like some days are like really hard. That's right.

SPEAKER_07 1:51:02

It depends.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:04

Because it's about the energy transfer. Like, who didn't work my nerve today? You know, like that's what I said, the emotional labor.

SPEAKER_05 1:51:10

The emotional labor.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:11

And it comes with any job that you do.

SPEAKER_05 1:51:13

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:14

But like it no matter what you do, you're going to have people that are like, God, they get on your nerves. Like they don't want to cooperate. You know, they don't want to do things the right way, you know, things like that. But I think that's so dismissed in our industry about like, oh, like, because everybody thinks we are after the next dollar. And it's like, actually, I actually want, I would rather have less, like, I would let have less in quantity and more in quality.

SPEAKER_07 1:51:36

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:36

Meaning, like, I have less clients that I have to work with, but more quality clients that I'm working with. That's right. Like, I actually enjoy, like, I always say for clients, be worth working with.

SPEAKER_05 1:51:47

Mm-hmm. Because we don't have to work, listen.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:50

Yes. But I keep that mindset when I'm doing business with people. Like, how can I be a joy to work with?

SPEAKER_01 1:51:57

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:58

Like, if this was my podcast studio, and the gentleman that's that's operating this studio was like, I'm always coming in, like, how can I be a joy for him to work with? Absolutely. Because I don't want him to like dismiss me or here he comes. Like, I don't like, like, but you know people like that. Oh, yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_05 1:52:15

I know people like that, you know, now today, where I am not enthused by your presence at all. If anything, you have, you know, and it shouldn't be this way, but now my energy is altered. It is, you know, depending on what you want to be on today, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:33

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:52:36

All right. We didn't get through all the questions, but I'm gonna ask this one final question because y'all, we done, we done went over time.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:42

Still relevant though. Very relevant.

SPEAKER_05 1:52:44

It's a good podcast. If a young black man asks you today about altering his texture, what would you want him to understand first?

SPEAKER_00 1:52:53

Well, I would ask questions before getting him to understand anything. Okay. Just why? You know, why? Like, what's the because I think with anything, and it's not just with this question, but just anything in life, this life lesson. Like, what is the motivation? What motivates you to want to do this? And I ask myself those questions all the time about anything that I do. And I want to raise my children with the same questions and things. What is the motivation? Is it because it's something that you saw? Is it because it's like, where is the influence coming from? Gauge the influence. So it would be less about getting him to understand, and it would be more about asking, what is the motivation? Who did you see? Where did the influence come from? Because influence is subtle. That's right. Influence is invisible. It is. It's like air, like you can't see it, but it's always working. You know, it's just like air, like you can't see it, but you're always breathing, you know? Like, so influence is subtle. So, like, like where did the influence did this? I mean, it's very abstract. It's very abstract. Yes, uh-huh. I highly doubt that you just came up with this in your head. That's right. Not not doubting your intellectual fortitude, but like, where did this come from? Yeah, where did this energy come from? Where did it come from? You know, and I think that from there, if I can get a clear, if I can gain clarity from that question, he can he can provide that, then maybe the conversation may go a different way.

SPEAKER_05 1:54:17

That's right. That's right. I think asking questions first is always important before you suggest anything.

SPEAKER_01 1:54:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:54:23

You know, so you can have the understanding. Yeah. So that y'all can both have the understanding. You know, you uh providing your input, yeah. It'll just create some misalignment somewhere, and definitely some misunderstanding. You know, so I think that's a great approach. Ask the question first.

SPEAKER_00 1:54:40

Like, well, I I think, and it's also the rule of thumb um is you ask questions with questions.

SPEAKER_07 1:54:46

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:54:48

Ask questions. I had someone ask me again, this is about life. This isn't just about the question, but it it still applies. Um ask me, like, man, like uh basically he asked me to tell him his blind spots. And to like kind of tell, like, just kind of self-assessment, like, hey man, like can you can you be honest with me about my blind spots, about where I may be? And so I understand how human nature works. And so I asked him a question with a question. Like I didn't I didn't answer his question because I didn't have enough information.

SPEAKER_07 1:55:21

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:21

To answer his question.

SPEAKER_07 1:55:22

That's right, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:23

So instead of me just cut even though I knew his blind spots and and I had an internal perspective.

SPEAKER_07 1:55:29

But you need clarity.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:30

I need clarity as to like, you know, the prompting of the asking. You know, so I I answered his question with a question. Like, what are your blind spots? Like, what do you see your blind spots are? And if you say something that I agree with, then I I'll I'll I'll I'll confirm that.

SPEAKER_03 1:55:45

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:46

And if it's not, then not because I want to make an enemy out of you.

SPEAKER_03 1:55:48

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:48

You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_03 1:55:49

You ask me about blind spots and I say something offensive, and now we ain't cool with you.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:54

So it's just really about asking questions with questions. The human nature rule of asking questions with questions. So that's what I would do to that young man. That's right. Or what I would ask him, you know, where's this motivation coming from? Like, you know, why do you want to alter your hair? Yeah. Like, did you see something on the music video, YouTube, somebody at school? Like, you know, where is this coming from? Um which is why, like, again, life rule of thumb. But like, even my philosophy regarding my family is to keep my family very tight with my children for the first couple of years to limit the influence. Now, the influence is influence is always gonna be the because it's gonna be at least a few.

SPEAKER_05 1:56:35

Not even a couple. You know, like you can extend it to like they're like nine or ten. You know what I'm saying? Keep it close.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:41

Like, these are the people that you know and some people look will object, are like they're gonna be antisocial. No, they won't.

SPEAKER_05 1:56:46

No, they won't. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_07 1:56:47

No.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:48

No. We're just creating boundaries. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_05 1:56:51

That's right. Oh, okay. And you need the heavily the the whatever values I have to give you in life, I need them in you before you go out into the world. I'm talking about like branded. I'm telling you. And before you go out, that's right. Before you get out here into this world, and they have you're so easily influenced because you didn't have those boundaries. I know.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:12

You know, so and some of those boundaries come with hair as well.

SPEAKER_05 1:57:14

They sure do. They come with hair as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:16

Like this is who you are. This is your hair. This is how it is, this is how you care for it. You know, like that's the thing.

SPEAKER_04 1:57:25

It is.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:25

You know what I mean? Um, if you can't have if you can't care for it in this way, then figure, like, do something else.

SPEAKER_06 1:57:30

Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:32

Because your hair needs TLC. It sure does. That's just that's just what it is. Um that's what I that's what I would ask.

SPEAKER_05 1:57:41

I think that's great. I really do. Asking questions before assumption. Assumption. And then you make a it's out of you and them.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:47

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 1:57:48

Facts. Facts.

SPEAKER_05 1:57:50

Okay, so we have come to our time, and unfortunately, Darius and us, we got, well, we have to wrap it up.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:59

Um We always have a good time.

SPEAKER_05 1:58:01

Nah, for real. And and thank Bryce is amazing. He's so patient with me. I love him to death. He just be putting up with my shenanigans. I just love him so much. But not because he put up my shenanigans. He's a great person, a great podcast engineer.

SPEAKER_01 1:58:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:58:14

Um, so yeah, just shout out your um socials again and let people know where they can find you.

SPEAKER_00 1:58:20

Yeah, so I'm just I'm on um on Instagram and TikTok under Premium Fade League.

SPEAKER_01 1:58:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:58:28

That's it. P-R-E-M-I-U-M Fade League. Liga. You gotta put that uh at the end because people be like, Lee, you know, premium fade league. That's L-A-L. Like a National Football League, you know, Liga.

SPEAKER_03 1:58:42

They know what you're talking about now.

SPEAKER_00 1:58:43

L-E A G-U-E. You know, premium fade. So Well, thank you. Premium and not premiere. Premium.

SPEAKER_05 1:58:50

Premium. Premium. That's important. Yeah, especially saying premiere. And no S on the fades. Right. Premium fade league. Shook. You gotta be you gotta be specific.

SPEAKER_00 1:59:02

Yeah, uh maybe a little word, Salad, but it's all good. It's all good. The PFL, baby PFL.

SPEAKER_05 1:59:07

Well, I think that reminds me of NFL.

SPEAKER_00 1:59:09

Yeah. Yeah. Premium Fade League, National Football League.

SPEAKER_05 1:59:11

Yeah. Now y'all shouldn't mess that up.

SPEAKER_00 1:59:13

Yeah. At all.

SPEAKER_05 1:59:15

It goes back to you telling me that you used to play football, too. Gotcha. Okay. Well, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate, you know, you carving out the time to join us on the podcast once again. I know you're busy with business, family, growing family. Yeah. So uh for you to stop by, I just I'm grateful to have this conversation.

SPEAKER_00 1:59:36

Thanks for having me, and like I say, for having this wonderful platform to talk about comfortable things and some uncomfortable things. That's right. That can wait that can raise awareness, like it did for me today. So thank you for your platform.

SPEAKER_05 1:59:47

Yeah, I mean, it it I mean, I it did, but I I think you're already there. It's just um I'm learning and relearning. Right. You caught yourself quick. I didn't even have to say nothing. You know, you was like, wait a minute, wait a minute. That is a good idea.

SPEAKER_00 2:00:00

But again, that was the that's the awareness.

SPEAKER_05 2:00:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:00:03

And they came from today.

SPEAKER_05 2:00:04

Oh. Well, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 2:00:05

That's how big of a blessing it is for me.

SPEAKER_05 2:00:07

Okay. Well, I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_00 2:00:09

Sure.

SPEAKER_05 2:00:09

Conversations like this matter because they remind us that hair has never just been hair. It's been history, pressure, expression, and sometimes protection. When we look back at the choices black men made in the 90s and the choices black women have been navigating for generations, it becomes clear that texturism didn't create different wounds, it just dressed them differently. Healing doesn't come from pretending those moments didn't happen. It comes from understanding them, naming them, and giving ourselves permission to release what we were taught about worth and texture. Thank you, Darius, for holding space for this conversation and thank you for listening with openness. If this episode resonated with you, share it, sit with it, and keep the conversation going.