Part 1: The Truth About Black Hair; History, Identity, and Industry - Lori L. Tharps

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In this episode, historian and Hair Story co-author Lori L. Tharps joins Hair What I'm Saying to discuss Black hair history, cultural identity, beauty standards, and how generations of misinformation have shaped our relationship with our hair.

Black hair gets called “too big” and “too wild” like that’s an objective fact, but it’s really a script and somebody profits from it. We sit down with historian and journalist Lori L. Tharps, co-author of *Hair Story: Untangling the Roots of Black Hair in America*, to pull that script apart and replace it with actual context. If you’ve ever second-guessed your texture, your style choices, or what “professional” is supposed to look like, this one is for you.

We start with Lori’s personal path and how a graduate school thesis on Black hair was dismissed as not “serious” scholarship, until the research proved otherwise. From workplace microaggressions to the quiet reality that many of us learned more about white hair than our own, we talk about how misinformation becomes internalized and why the language we use about our hair matters.

Then we go deeper into Black hair history: pre-colonial African societies where hair worked like an identity system, carrying signals of community, status, and spirituality. We also get honest about cultural appropriation versus cultural appreciation, the natural hair movement’s global ripple effects, and how the Black hair industry grew from pre-Civil War barbering and styling into a multi-billion-dollar economy that’s often judged with a double standard.

You’ll leave with a cleaner frame: Black hair isn’t “hard,” it’s unique, delicate, and powerful, and it only becomes a problem inside systems that refuse to understand it. Subscribe to the podcast, share this with a friend, and leave a review if it shifts how you see your hair.

Connect with Lori L. Tharps:

Lori's Website

Click here to purchase the book, Hair Story written by Lori L. Tharps & Ayana D. Byrd

Transcript

Black Hair And Power

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Let's talk about it. Because somehow, some way, black hair has always been the conversation. Too big, too wild, too unprofessional, too hard to manage, and somehow always in need of fixing. But here's the question I've been sitting with. What if our hair was never the problem? What if the real issue is the system built around it? The one that profits off our confusion, our insecurity, and our desire to just get it right. Today's episode is not just about hair. It's about history, power, and truth. And I could not have this conversation without someone who has actually studied and documented the story behind it all. I'm joined by Lori L. Tharps, historian, journalist, and co-author of Hair Story, a book that breaks down the cultural and political journey of black hair in a way that a lot of us were never taught. So if you've ever questioned your hair, your choices, or the messages you've been fed about what your hair is supposed to be, this conversation is for you. Welcome to

Meet Lori L. Tharps

SPEAKER_00 1:02

the Hair What I'm Saying podcast. I'm your host, Kenitra Stewart. Today we have Lori L. Tharps joining us to talk about the black hair history that we all need to know about. Lori, welcome to the show. How are you?

SPEAKER_01 1:15

I am well. Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Thank you for carving out the time in your schedule. I

Why She Moved To Spain

SPEAKER_00 1:22

know you are in Spain, which when I reached out to you, I had no idea because it was saying that you were still in Austin. So I was like, ooh, we're gonna be able to record inside the studio. We'll be able to meet in person. And then when I reached out to you and learned that you were in Spain, I was like, how did you get to Spain? Like, tell me all about that. What was the journey like going to Spain?

SPEAKER_01 1:44

Well, first, I'm not sure where you saw that I was from Austin. I've never been in Austin, which I don't think I've ever even been in Texas before. I was in Philadelphia before I was here in Spain. But um I do get around. I was in New York before that, and before that, I was in Wisconsin. So I've been all around the United States. But um, I actually married a Spaniard and he came to the United States. We met actually in college during my um junior year of college. I went, I did a junior year in Spain. We met there, dated for a long time. He ended up coming to the U.S. and we just stayed in the United States um for like 25, 20, 25, somewhere between 20, 25 years. I forget exactly, but um in 2021, kind of in the middle of the pandemic, we decided to move to Spain. Um, he wanted to just be closer to his family, and I wanted to spend more time writing and less time teaching, which is what I've been doing, teaching full-time in academia at Temple University. Go owls. Um, and I just decided that well, I mean, I didn't just decide, but we as a family decided to, you know, try living on this side of the Atlantic Ocean. And I thought it would be really good for my kids as well. You know, they're Spanish and black, so they've had their Black American experience in the United States, but I wanted them to also obviously have the experience before they got too old to live in Spain. So here we are. Are they bilingual? They are, yeah. It's been really exciting to watch that. Well, um, I have three kids. My eldest is 24. I have to do the math. He's 24. He actually stayed in the U.S., he did not come in with come with us. But the other one is um, the middle child is 21 and the baby girl is 14.

SPEAKER_00 3:42

Oh, wow. Learning that information, I had no idea. That's why I was like, whenever I start the podcast, I have to ask her, how did you, you know, venture to Spain? And so learning that you're actually married to someone that is of Spaniard descent, and you know, why not? You know, if you have those options, I I say go for it. You know, I think it's also important for your kids to have both experiences too, and not just one, you know. So for you and your husband to make that decision to make sure whatever resources they need to navigate as a Spaniard and black person, it's very important. A hundred percent. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

And I didn't want them to, you know, become adults and then be angry that we didn't give them that experience. And it's up to them, you know, if they want to settle in Spain or they want to sp settle in the United States, at least they can say that they've had the experience in both places and they can make that decision.

SPEAKER_00 4:40

Absolutely. So when I Googled, I was Googling historians in Austin, Texas, and you came up. I don't know. So that's how I will assume that you were in Austin because I I did near me and you came up. So I was like, oh, that's that you know. Thank you, Google, for making that mistake. Because that's how I found you. Yeah. So in case you were wondering, so if if somebody googles historians in Austin, Texas, you're gonna filter. I'm I'll take it. I'll take it. Yeah, why not?

SPEAKER_01 5:19

I'll take it.

SPEAKER_00 5:20

Right. So how long have y'all been in Spain now? Was it what, like five, four years? It's actually exactly five years.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

We just had our five-year anniversary a couple days ago. So yes.

SPEAKER_00 5:31

Congratulations. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 5:33

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 5:34

Which one do you like most? Or do you are or are there pros and cons with both living in the US and living in Spain?

SPEAKER_01 5:43

I think, I mean, it's I really feel like there are, you know, like you said, pros and cons to both. I did not move to Spain because I was fleeing the United States. I am not one of those people who will like tell everybody should move abroad. Everybody should absolutely not. Right. Because you have to do your laundry and pay taxes wherever you go. And life is just life. I mean, there's obviously there's differences, but exactly like you said, there's pros and cons of every place. There's no paradise in the world. And um I mean, it's exciting to be in a new place, but again, it's been five years. I'm doing laundry, paying taxes, and you know, just living my life. And so I love being in a, you know, I moved here right before I turned 50. I love that where a lot of people think of themselves as aging and it's kind of like getting older, and you just kind of fall into routine that this move made my quote unquote second half of life feel a little bit more adventurous. I have to learn how to do things differently, speak a different language. So it's been invigorating for me personally. Um but I could be in, I mean, I could be in Austin. Like I could have just moved to a different state, I could have moved to, you know, Canada. Like it's the idea of just kind of getting yourself out of your routine. But to compare, I really just feel like, you know, and also my experience is unique because I'm married to a Spaniard. So I've been coming to Spain back and forth for a long time. So that's different than if I had just picked up and moved here, not necessarily knowing the pros and cons of living here, you know, the good, the bad, the ugly, so to speak. So yeah, I don't compare. It's just for me personally, I was ready for an adventure so that I didn't go into like middle age, just kind of like, I don't know, bored or stuck in a rut. So I feel like if you are looking to shake your life up, yeah, by all means, go try something new, but don't go looking for some sort of, you know, secret uh solution to all of your problems or anything like that.

SPEAKER_00 8:09

Well, running away from those never solved anything anyway. Absolutely not. You have to just face those head on.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

Exactly, exactly. So yeah, that's I I don't I can't compare them. I just, you know, I'm I'm happy. I'm good. I'm good.

SPEAKER_00 8:24

Because you see on TikTok where they're like, you should be moving to Costa Rica and you need to move to a different country and et cetera, et cetera, for all the reasons why, you know. And when you said I that's not your story, and you wouldn't also project that onto anyone else, you know. And I appreciate that perspective and that point of view because that's what you see more where people are encouraging you to come to the place, you know. And who's to say you're gonna even love it there?

SPEAKER_01 8:54

You know, you know, there's a lot of things that I mean, I really I mean, I I don't say this a lot publicly because I feel like it seems hypocritical because I did move abroad, but again, my situation was different. I'm literally giving my husband the same consideration he gave me, you know, living 20 years in my country, being with all my family members, doing all the family things, whereas, you know, I f I felt in some ways obligated. His parents are aging, he hasn't been around his siblings for all these years. So I kind of, I mean, that was a marriage decision a lot in a lot of ways. But when you um see all this social media emphasis on moving abroad, there are so many things that are, again, like we said, you don't lose, you don't leave your problems behind. There

The Real Cost Of Moving Abroad

SPEAKER_01 9:46

is no such thing as, you know, a perfect society. Racism is everywhere, it might look different. You gotta readjust to a whole different type of prejudice, racism, classism, things. You know, you don't even want to learn somebody else's oppression, but you're gonna have to, depending where you go. Um, also, you're so far from friends and family, which again, for a year or two, you're like, ooh, this is so fun. But what happens when friends and family need you or you need them? I mean, I don't think people really think about the consequences of having a serious illness or even an accident, and you're alone. Like you don't have community deep uh to help you. And you don't plan for that. Of course, you're not planning like, oh, what happens if, but that's the kind of thing that makes people realize really fast that moving abroad wasn't the best thing in the world. Um and yeah, there's just a lot to consider, and loneliness is very real, you know, like like really lonely, because you could be surrounded by all the lovely people in your new country, but they don't share, you know, you can't even necessarily chat about music or you know, the TV shows. Or relatability or the favorite food, you know, because it's like the and and that wears on a person if they're not prepared, if they are not really looking for a true fresh start, which most people, you know, you you think the newness is a good thing, but after a while you're you're you're really grappling with identity, yeah, lack of community, support in a lot of different ways. Um even, and I've seen this happen for younger people, you know, I think if you're in the retirement age, this is a different conversation. But people who are still trying to build a career, like even the concept of what jobs are available, what career options are available, and what you're qualified for in a different culture, you might feel like an idiot. Like, sorry, part of my French, but you're like no, seriously, that job doesn't even exist here. So, what you can do is either A or B. That's it. And how do you feel about that? I've seen people turn around and go back to the US because like they didn't have purpose. And you don't understand how after a year of being uh newly arrived, and then you're looking for purpose, that can also be very challenging. And you don't necessarily recognize that what I need is purpose. Uh, but that's actually what's missing. So all these social media influencers telling people to jump on the first plane running, it's far more complicated than doing that, just doing that.

SPEAKER_00 12:50

That's right. They make it so simplified. I'm like, you know, and we're like, I'm from a military family, and I was also in the military. And even moving around with the military, that's not simple at all. And that's actual help, you know. And we do have community because of, you know, military, you know, affiliation and orient, you know, oriented people. We have Facebook community. So that's how we connect in order to get together in real time. But even with that, it's still challenging, you know, even with the assistance, the help. Um, you know, obviously the purpose is to do our job over there. But what about your own purpose? You know, your own personal purpose. Where's that gonna come from? And you stay over there sometimes for like four years. And you're saying after the first year. So, you know, so those last three years, you know, even with us living abroad, it can be daunting, you know, just trying to hurry up and get back to where you where you are familiar, you know, with how things are operated. And, you know, if you want to plant roots and build something, you know, it can be very temporary, you know. So um, even with the assistance, it's still, it's still challenging, which is why whenever I do see these social media posts, I want to see more than what they're selling, you know.

SPEAKER_01 14:13

Right.

SPEAKER_00 14:13

Because of course they're gonna sell the hype, they're gonna sell the positives, but it's always a give and take, no matter where you go, you know? So I'm like, what is the take? I hear the give. Exactly. What is the take? You know, to but to just jump up and make a spontaneous decision to move abroad, that's extremely risky. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

And it's I think a lot of times also people are doing it with kids, which I find so um, it's just not fair to a child to make a decision like that without really, really pondering what the consequences will be for that child. And people always say, Oh, kids are resilient, they'll be fine. Um in the moment.

SPEAKER_00 15:02

Why don't we make them suffer like that, though? Yeah, they remember that, you know. Unfortunately, depending on how that experience can be for the child, it grows with them if it's not resolved, and then it's showing up in adulthood, you know.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

I have friends who moved to China with their black children, and those children were so abused. I mean, they were called names. I mean, it was very traumatizing for them, and they still haven't recovered. I mean, honestly, I'm talking 10 years later, and they're still carrying the trauma because they were young kids, and that kind of isolating racism, I think it like shifted their brain chemistry. And I'm not exaggerating. No, I believe they're like the parents were, I mean, it's a different experience. You don't have to go to school with a bunch of kids. Like kids can be mean. And so that's the kind of thing, and again, I there are plenty of people who have moved by you said you were, you know, a military family, and um I'm not even suggesting that it can't be done, that it can't be a good experience. But like you said, this idea that it's so easy, just go and do it. Um, people need to do a lot of research, really, and make sure that what they're doing is for the right reasons, and that the places that they plan on living really are going to be supportive for themselves, but also for their children if they have children. And children, again, you know, you want what's best for your kids, obviously. And sometimes we're able to like, you know, adapt and you know, make concessions, but children sometimes it's you know, again, they're resilient, but also they're they're tender. So we do very vulnerable.

SPEAKER_00 16:52

Mm-hmm. Yes. Well, thank you for sharing that information with us. I just had to ask you, because I like I said, I did not know that you were in a completely different country. So I wanted to learn that story and how you ended up, you know, leaving America and, you know, traveling abroad and residing there. So thank you for sharing that.

unknown 17:12

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 17:13

Um, I

Becoming A “Hairstorian”

SPEAKER_00 17:14

do want to ask you to walk us through your story of becoming a historian. And, you know, did you always know that you were gonna be a historian? And um, or were there some unorthodoxness involved in your journey? I want to know. We wanna know.

SPEAKER_01 17:31

Absolutely. Yes, and I actually call myself a hairstorian. A hair story, okay. A hairston. I think myself and my co-author, we we both call ourselves hairstorians at this point. Is that on a bird? Yes, exactly. Um, we are accidental hairstorians because I think if you had told me um 20 years ago that my career was going to be, you know, the foundation of my career was going to be my book, Hair Story Untangling the Roots of Black Hair in America, I wouldn't have believed you. But that book, yes, thank you. That book started as my master's thesis in graduate school. I went to uh Columbia University's Graduate School of Journalism, and we had to select a topic that we would want to report on and write a thesis on over the course of an entire year. So it couldn't be, you know, something that wasn't gonna hold your attention. Um, and to be honest, I can't even tell you why I selected black hair. I had gone through a lot of different ideas for, you know, topics that I would like to report on. And like my advisor had said, if the idea doesn't really stick with you, don't pick it. Because again, you have to, this is literally, if you don't pass your thesis, you don't pass the, you know, you don't get your degree. So over and over I was coming up with ideas, but it wasn't until I selected black hair that I was like, this is a topic that I know I can spend the rest of my life researching and investigating. And ironically, once I decided on that, it was my advisor who warned me and said, this is not an actual topic that you can um apply real academic scholarship and research. Where like maybe this is a personal essay you could write, but you're gonna fail if you choose black hair as your topic for your thesis. And again, I can't even tell you where I got the courage and the confidence to look her in the face and say, Well, I'm gonna do it anyway and I'm gonna prove you wrong. But I did like that's not my character really. I'm usually much more of a like, okay, I'll follow the rules. But in that situation, something in me just knew that the experiences that I had had personally with my hair as a black person who grew up in predominantly white spaces. I had I grew up in Wisconsin, in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, very segregated city. Um, and then, you know, I went to college at a predominantly white institution. Then I worked in corporate America. And while I was in corporate America in particular, there had been just so many the word microaggressions didn't even exist at that point, but so many microaggressions in the workplace that just struck me as so bizarre that I thought all around here, I'm specifically, that I thought to myself, like, there has to be like a reason that these things happen. And even though this knowledge came from personal experience, I also recognized I certainly wasn't the only black person who had been to work and somebody had said something ignorant about their hair. And when I say ignorant, I mean ignorant. I don't mean lunar racist. I mean they were like, you know, that do you wash your hair? Or like how did it grow because I'd gotten a relaxer or something like that. How did your hair grow five inches overnight? You know, all of these things that just became a part of my personal experience. Again, I could extrapolate that these would happen to any black person who is in white spaces who's growing up in America. And also, excuse me, also the realization that for all of that ignorance, I had a wealth of information and knowledge about white hair and white hair care. How come I could tell a white person exactly what kind of shampoo and conditioner and brushing their hair 20 times because it had permeated, it was a part of um Mainstream Western culture to understand hair culture of Caucasian people. And so right there, I recognized that there was an imbalance and inequality in just knowledge, right? And I recognized I know more about white people's hair than I know about my own hair. So that's not right either. So again, as a journalist, when you see a discrepancy, when you see a, you know, you see something that doesn't make sense that affects many people, boom, that's a story. It sure is. So it was like my journalist training recognized that there was something to discover. And that's how I approached this, this original thesis was there's something to discover. And while I can't guarantee I'm gonna find it, there is clearly something amiss here that needs to be researched and needs to be talked about. So long story short, I did the thesis. My doubting advisor invited me to her home after the fact, made tea for me. She was British, okay? She made me tea, sat me down and apologized. Good. Apologized and not only apologized, but told me I had to turn this into a book that she had already, you know, given a copy to her friend who was planning on adopting a black child and was like the, you know, she was like, I have seen the light. This is incredible. Please do something with this work. I was like, oh. You made her a believer. I completely did. And I mean, a white woman from the UK is about as far removed as one can get from you know my intended audience. You know what I mean? So the fact that she was so excited about this information gave me the courage to say, okay, keep going. So long story a little shorter, my um co-author, Ayana Bird and I, we were both working at Vibe Magazine, and she had done a very similar thesis as an undergraduate, looking more at the sociology of like what does it mean to be a black woman with the beauty beauty um ideals uh that had been pretty much made for and by uh Caucasian women. I had done my thesis more on the history and the politics of black hair. So combined, we really knew a lot just from that point. And her advisor had also excuse me, I'm gonna sorry, her advisor had also told her, after doubting that she had, you know, the content for a proper thesis, that she should write a book. So we decided together that we should combine our interests and write this book. So we took a year to do research on top of the research we'd already done and and wrote the book, Hair Story. And that came out originally in 2001. And what we did was we traced the history of black people's hair starting in 15th century Africa and moving up to the 21st century. And we wanted to start in 15, we wanted to start in West Africa as far back as we could find records to demonstrate what the relationship was that black people had with their hair before European contact. In other words, we understood already that white supremacy had destroyed black people's relationship with their hair. So we wanted to see what it was like before. And of course, we discovered that it was a very positive relationship. It was a magical, mystical, and spiritual relationship. And the hair was just, you know, literally our crowning glory, right? And so why you know, marking the steps uh from that point to again, modern America, 21st century America, that's what the book was. And

Natural Hair Goes Global

SPEAKER_01 26:07

then in 2014, we um we did an updated version of the book because the book first came out in 2001. The internet was barely a thing. And so, and also the natural hair movement hadn't popped off at that point. So we needed to, or we wanted to update the book so that we could incorporate how impactful the natural hair movement was, how significant that was in kind of altering the way black people thought about their hair, both men and women, and how that was already spreading outside the borders of the United States. Um and and excuse me, and also looking at the impact of the black hair care industry and how that also was wildly successful on the backs of the natural hair movement. We had a whole new um explosion of new black hair care companies being launched, primarily by black women that were then, of course, absorbed by multinational companies, but still we saw this proliferation. So the the story of black hair just continues. So, yes, it started in, you know, like I said, back in the 90s when I was in graduate school, but we are continuously charting the impact, the changes, the updates. You know, when we first started, more women um relaxed their hair than not, then the natural hair movement saw a dip in relaxer use, and now relaxer use is sneaking back up. But you know, like there's waves and changes. People always say that the black hair business is recession recession proof, which has proven to be true. And what's really interesting now is that this natural hair movement, you know, what black women started, it is spreading even farther globally. I mean, in places where you wouldn't even think there was a connection, like Bangladesh, okay. In Bangladesh, the women are wearing their natural curls, which have been demonized as um, you know, making them look wild, crazy, professional. So similar language, and they literally credit black American women, the natural hair movement in the United States, for giving them the courage to start their own movement. I think they call it, they don't call it natural hair, they call it like hair freedom, like hair freedom that are happening in Bangladesh, Egypt, India, the Middle East. It's fascinating. And unlike cultural appropriation, which we often see in the United States, where people steal black women's hairstyles without giving credit, these global movements are making a direct link between black hair, the natural hair movement started by black women in the United States to their own movements, which is so powerful. And it's why I will be a hair story until the day I die, because this is a dynamic cultural movement that just continues to grow, expand, change. Um, and it's just absolutely fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 29:35

Yes. I had no idea the natural hair movement was moving in Bangladesh. I had no right? I had no idea. You know, when I'm on social media, whenever I am Googling about hair in general, especially curly hair, I see it happening where people, you know, from different nationalities, even some white people who have curly hair, I see them more embracing their curly hair now. And subconsciously, I knew it had to be the effects of black women finally, you know, being more rebellious in a good way to start wearing their natural hair. I knew that that was like an overflow from what we're doing now. You know, they're seeing the positivity in the movement. And, you know, just also our experiences that we do share, unconditioning their minds to know like your hair is beautiful the way that it naturally coils out of your scalp. But I had no idea that it was a global thing in that way. I'm more thinking out of ignorance. Like, yeah, of course, maybe like Africa, you know, just because of the roots, you know, but not Bangladesh. You know, you told me that I'm like trying to compose myself and not talk while you're talking. But I'm like, I had no idea. Like I'm learning something already, and we haven't even started the podcast, you know? So I had no idea, but I can also see it's not unbelievable for me to, you know, accept that and learn that and know that, you know, when you spoke about like culture of uh appropriation, I was at an event yesterday was called Crowning Your Hair Story, hosted by Minnie Little. She's an Austin native and hairstylist in Texas, and she owns Shag Noir Salon. And that was a question that was brought up on the panel about, you know, culture of appropriation and how do we feel about it? And there were a mix of different answers, you know, but collectively it all unified, came together, and it made sense, you know. But after reading, and I haven't finished your book, I have not had an opportunity to finish it, but just from the information that I've already learned and gained, I can understand why some black people would be offended, you know, just learning that historical context that's so important, you know, and then because we had to struggle through that acceptance, you know, and then it's like, oh, it's I can just wear it and I'm okay. It didn't come with any backlash, no trauma, just pure acceptance. And whenever you learn historical context, you feel, um, I don't know, it's not defeated, but you feel overlooked. You feel, you know, unaccepted, you know, um, and just, you know, like they get the, you know, that that whole saying with, you know, if you want our rhythm, you gotta take our blues too. You know, so it's like they didn't, they didn't have anything to do with the blues part, you know. Just they just got the, you know, you know, just to flow in the rhythm of it and be accepted. And it's considered cool. And, you know, and for us, it was considered ghetto, you know, in so many words. You know, it was, you know, it was ghetto. So, and that that conversation came up. You had some on the panel that said, well, we have also adopted, you know, these styles from, you know, other cultures. And my perspective is, yeah, we have, but it wasn't because we wanted to. It was based on survival. You know, we were conforming to survive, to feed our kids, to get the job, to be accepted, you know, but just adopting it just because we genuinely loved it, we didn't do that. You know, we were just trying to make way. Yeah. Yeah. So I I I just thought that that was interesting where, you know, different panelists didn't have an issue with it. Some of us were, it's like, we don't have an issue with it, but I'm side-eyeing it, you know. One, you know, you know, one uh the host was saying, you know, just don't wear it as a costume. You know, try yeah, just try to learn the history so that you when you do wear it, you will appreciate it, you know. So yeah. We brought that up on the touch on that.

Appropriation Versus Appreciation

SPEAKER_01 34:07

Sorry, we talk about the difference between cultural appropriation and cultural appreciation. That's right. And what requ what is required for appreciation, like you just said, is to know the history and to give credit. And I think that's what, like what I was saying about these other movements that are happening happening globally, these women are crediting black women. Right. They are saying, we thank the black women in the United States for giving us this idea that, like you said, our hair is beautiful just the way it comes out of our head. They're not wearing black hairstyles, they're not trying to adopt somebody else's trauma or anybody else's narrative. They're simply saying, wow, look at these brave women who have accepted themselves the way, you know, God made them, however, you want to say that. Um, we can do the same thing. I mean, that's how social movements, you know, spread anyway. It's like look at, you know, the civil rights movement inspired the farm workers' movement, inspired this. You know, you see, this is how social movements um they grow, but they give credit. And so what you're saying, um, these, you know, different panelists and and what they're talking about. No, I mean, we live in a multicultural society. At this point, there's a lot of cultural sharing, mixing, um, you know, but but the reason we wrote hair story, the reason we wrote the book is so people can educate themselves. You don't have an excuse to say, oh, I didn't know, because there's too much information now. It is. Read the book, listen to the book, watch a documentary, even you know, some great magazine articles, what have you. Or if you have to, talk to a black person. Talk to me. Right.

SPEAKER_00 35:58

You can learn it through a black experience alone.

SPEAKER_01 36:01

Exactly. So, yeah, so you can. I mean, nobody wants to be a hair police. Nobody wants to be told if you're black, nobody wants to tell you you're not allowed to wear your hair straight because you're trying to look this way or that way. And likewise, nobody is suggesting that white people can't wear certain hairstyles, although certain things I do think they should think twice about. Right. But even if they are gonna wear them, understand where this comes from. Understand what it means, and like you said, understand the trauma that was in inflicted sometimes that are associated, or even the spiritual meaning behind certain hairstyles before you wear it, as you said, as a costume, or because you think it's funny, or because you just, you know, you're trying to, you know, imitate something that you really don't understand the depths and meaning behind.

SPEAKER_00 36:54

That's right. Or you think it's cute. You know, it's way more complex than that. You know, so many layers. It's a layered, you know, it went from being something so sacred and symbolic, you know, we identified, you know, with it through, you know, whatever status what you know the person was experiencing at the time to it transforming into something political, something controversial. We have to pass certain laws in order to just wear it, you know. So, and I think whenever you consider that information, that's why it becomes culture appropriation versus appreciation, because you don't see a lot of them vocalizing, you know, that I did take the time to educate myself on a certain hairstyle that I did choose. If anything, it's just kind of just showing it off and moving on. Okay. Well, we'll get into our first question. When

Hair As Identity In Africa

SPEAKER_00 38:01

we talk about black hair, we're not just talking about style, we're talking about history. Well, I feel like you kind of well, you can if you need to reiterate more and you know, hone in more deep on this question that I'm preparing to ask you, then by all means, please do. Can you walk us through the cultural significance of hair in pre-colonial African societies?

SPEAKER_01 38:26

Yeah, sure. So before European, you know, colonization, if you will, um, black hair s uh sick it operated, what we say in our book, Hair Story, that it operated almost like somebody's social security card or social security number, in that it uh was the the main source of identification for a person. A person's hairstyle could tell your status in society, what family you belong to, what tribe you belong to, um, it could tell your profession, everything that somebody needed to know about you, you could see in their hairstyle. Sometimes women would wear styles that would tell somebody that they were um, you know, that they were courting with a certain person. They could have a hairstyle that would suggest that they were um um that their that their husband was uh a warrior at war, that they were a widow. Um men's hairstyles were often more elaborate than women because they would hold higher levels in society. So everything about the hairstyle had a significance, and it was such a special part of the body. You didn't just let anybody touch your hair. There was usually a designated hairdresser for the community, and those hairdressers got their talents and skills passed down from their, you know, mothers, etc. And so there was even this idea that the hair might have magical properties or spiritual properties because it was the closest thing to the gods. So um sometimes in some societies and some cultures, they had like the medicine people, the shamans, the medicine men, they would um put human hair on their medic medical bags or pouches, if you will, because it was like a protective material. So it was very, very significant um these hairstyles. And in fact, the only time you wouldn't have your hair styled in some way is if you were um insane or very, very, very, very ill. So um I think that kind of harkens back to, you know, a lot of black people will know, you know, this idea that you can't go out with your hair not fixed or styled. And there's like some ancestral feeling there because your hair tells the world who you are, like who you are in every sense of the word. So it the hairstyles, again, were so intricate because they had to say so much.

SPEAKER_00 41:04

Yes.

Hair Superstitions And Science

SPEAKER_00 41:05

Uh, one thing I also learned reading your book that my mom used to tell me when I was a little kid, she would tell me, Don't throw your hair away like in the trash. Like you need to burn it. And I'm a kid. I'm like, what is she talking about? This um, you know, I'm not thinking as a kid this has spiritual meaning behind it because she would just tell me not to do it. You know, but um the last time I cut my hair, I would when I was reading your book during the time I was cutting my hair, I was like, do I burn this? Like, do I burn that? Do I just toss it in the trash? I'm like, it does feel like if I toss it in the trash, I'm just leaving it out. You know, just I think she used to even say, like, if a bird attacked the hair. Did you ever hear anything like that? I don't, I don't think I read that part in your book, but you know, you don't want a bird to take your hair and create a nest around it, then it creates like the stunt and the grow uh the growth, or um it will be damaged. It was just so many things, you know.

SPEAKER_01 42:06

Yes, we have a list of um, we have a list of hair superstitions in the book, and that's one of them. If you don't, if you let a if a bird gets your hair and they put it in their nest, you'll have headaches. I mean, there's different, all different kinds of um beliefs around um what would happen if somebody, if if your enemy gets your hair, they can put a a hex or a spell on you. Right. Because your hair is like a living piece of you. I mean, and I mean there's some science to this because it is your DNA, right? I mean, it really is part of you. If somebody if you are if you're a uh a criminal and you leave a piece of hair behind, they can find you. So that's true. There's a lot of your you are in your hair. Like your whole like DNA sequence is in your hair. So superstition, tradition, but science also about how significant our hair is. So yeah, there's a lot of that which comes really from an African uh belief system of the significance of our hair that is obviously carried over when African people are brought to the you know, the quote unquote new world. Those those belief systems still exist, although they may have been transformed, or some of the the the specificity of the spiritual meaning gets diluted, but there's still that understanding of how important the hair is.

SPEAKER_00 43:35

Absolutely. Yes. I I agree with you there. But she always had her superstitions. We're from we're from Louisiana, so it's so many, but she never said why. It would just be like, Don't do that, don't do that.

SPEAKER_01 43:49

Well, that's what it's actually really, I think it's kind of sad because um I actually had the opportunity to go to Ghana last year, and so many things that My mother taught me, my mom is originally from Mississippi. You know, she would tell things like that, you know, don't let, you know, don't leave your hair, uh, fingernails, uh, don't don't say this about a baby before. And when I was in Ghana, I often would hear similar things, but there was more to the story. They could explain the spiritual significance. And I just found myself many a times saying, Oh, that's I just thought my mom was mean, or I just thought she was just making things up. Because unfortunately, it's like getting half the story. And so we as kids, we're not necessarily going to follow up or do those things or even believe them because it just sounds crazy. But if you heard the second half of the story, the rich spiritual tradition and beliefs that went with them, you would, it would, you know, wrap you in this cocoon of ancestral knowledge instead of what feels like, again, half of a story. But understand that our mothers, our fathers, our aunties and grandmas are giving us what they remember, what they got. But it does come from somewhere. And that's why hair story is so important that we started as far back as we could. Yes. So that even these feelings of, you know, doing your hair to show up and show out, that that's also ancestral because we've always used our hair to tell people how we feel. And we are a creative people with our hair. That's not something we just made up. That is in our DNA. That is in our ancestry because these hairstyles have been elaborate and colorful and meaningful since day one. This is not a 21st century invention that we're, you know, doing crazy styles or gravity-defying styles or adding color, texture, beads, shells. Like we've been doing that. So it's almost like tapping into our history as opposed to making up new things. Yeah. But if you don't read the book, if you don't know the history, it just feels like disconnected. But I want people to feel the connection when they're doing their hair, when they're attaching a bead of, you know, sewing in color, ribbons, whatever it might be. But that's all part of our, you know, traditions of expressing ourselves through our hair.

SPEAKER_00 46:23

I also learned reading your book, the ornaments, um, you know, the ornaments, the tools, the accessories, anything that was used in order to do our hair, whoever that appointed person in the family was that was going to be doing the hair, they, if the person, the original person passed away, they could uh they inherited those things. Had no idea, you know. And also, I did not know there were appointed officials that were, you know, doing hair. You know, they didn't say like, oh, you can do hair, so you're gonna do hair. You know, it was someone that they designated. You know, you're the hairstylist for the family, you know, and I also appreciate the communion that was talked about in the book about how it was ceremonial as well, you know, gathering around each other, having these talks and doing hair and it was spending time, you know. And it's so different today, you know. It's so different today. There's no fellowshipping. You don't see that a lot, you know, anymore when it comes to black hair salons in the salon business. And sometimes I do feel like it's an indirect impact or influence from the system, you know, that's keeping us from being able to communion in that way, you know. So I I really would like for us to get back to that part. I believe it was in the 90s. You've seen it a lot in the 90s, and then it just slowly but surely doing a little way, and it became more about business, and which I understand, you know, but uh making it very difficult to afford the opportunity to be able to communic commune in that way. You know, everything is a regulation, like you can't do hair here and you can't do hair there, you know. So you you're forced to get inside of a building and pay the high rent, you know. You don't have time to commune no more. It's like I need to get in here, do this person's hair, and I need to get out of here, you know. So I I feel like that is also a um a very important, significant uh place that we were at that now we're lacking heavily in the salons. Yeah. Speaking

How Black Hair Became Big Business

SPEAKER_00 48:46

of that, there's a narrative that black hair care is a billion-dollar industry today. How did we get here historically?

SPEAKER_01 48:54

Yeah, that's a great question. So, um, and it's one of my favorites because the black hair industry is fascinating. I mean, I wish somebody would do, you know, okay, Tyler Perry, this is on you. But like, there is so like it is such a dramatic business and it has been since day one. But interestingly, black people have been doing hair in the United States since before the Civil War. Um, but and and they made money doing hair. It was a way to actually make a significant amount of money for both enslaved and free black people, but they did white people's hair. But that's how they started in the business. Um, they were doing white people's hair. Um, it was interesting because a lot of times black hairstylists from the Caribbean, um, you know, they were doing the styles, you know, because the Caribbean is run by, I mean, it's colonized by Europeans, right? So like white American women would want to get a black enslaved person who did hair in, I don't know, I'm like what French speaking uh Martinique or something like that, or um even in Haiti, and they because they knew the French styles. So they would have them come to the US and do theirs their hairstyles. Um white uh black men would do barbering for white, white people, and they were able to gain um, you know, make significant money for themselves, somewhat, some even buying themselves out of slavery because their owners would kind of loan them out and they were allowed to keep some of their of their savings. So from there, really, again, that's how black people got into the barbering and styling business. Like I said, even before um uh the Civil War was fought, there were also black people who were wig makers. Um, again, mostly for white people, but still that's how they made their money, often bought themselves out of freedom. And then post-Civil War, you know, they started getting um doing the same work, but also for black people because now there's a market. Now black people en masse have disposable income. I mean, it's not a ton, but it's still something that they can now spend money on. And there's a wide open market because white people had never created salons or barbershops for black people. So that's where this, that's where the industry started, really. It has been, it had been an industry. Interestingly, the hair care business and the funeral business, are you know, those are the two kind of businesses that black people have been involved with since, you know, prior to the Civil War being fought, right? It's been two businesses that black people have owned and dominated for their communities um for a very long time, for hundreds of years. So um, so that's where the business started from. And again, when you think about people who had that money from that far back, it gets reinvested, the businesses get passed on, we understand this is something we can do. And that's why, again, barbershops, beauty salons, even black hair care businesses, meaning creating product companies, those have been um, again, in the black community for years, for centuries. Um, and it's just continued to flourish as black people have gotten more disposable income, as the as the needs and desires for different hair care products have increased, you know, big big moments include the you know, the the invention of the relaxer, big moments include, like I already talked about, the uh, oh gosh, the Jerry curl. Ooh, child, that was a big moneymaker. Uh, I think a fashion disaster, but it was a big moneymaker, big moneymaker. Um, then of course the natural hair movement, which introduced a whole bunch of new uh products and not just new products, but where you could find those products once upon a time. If you were looking in mainstream stores for black hair products, you had to like get on your hands and knees and look on the very bottom shelf, separated from everything else. But now you can find products, you know, on the shelves of Ulta or um Target before we banned Target, before we stopped shop at Target. But, you know, Whole Foods, you know, all these different places now you can go and really find these products because they've been elevated, if you will. Um, so the business has been one that we've been elevating, evolving um for years and years and years. And because black hair requires products, like it requires products, unless you're literally going super, super bald or super teeny tiny afro, for the most part, black hair requires more moisturizing products than Caucasian hair. Um, it requires, you know, usually in addition to a shampoo and conditioner, let's say again, it needs a moisturizing product. Um, you need styling products. And um, like all beauty products, there's variations, you know, from affordable to lux um and additional things that are extras, not necessities. Um, and again, beauty products, there's like an endless amount of products you can create, and people will keep creating them because black people, both men and women, will keep purchasing them.

SPEAKER_03 54:19

Right.

SPEAKER_01 54:19

And so, yes, it is a multi-billion dollar business. But I do want to push back on this idea that somehow black people spend more money, we do spend more money on hair products because we need to. But if you just look at something like the beard in like the beard grooming industry, which is relatively new, how it's proliferating. Once somebody realizes that they can start selling, I don't know, beard lotions. Like, I don't have a beard, so I don't buy these products. I don't pay that much attention to them, but I see that they're growing, that there's an industry. All somebody has to do is get people hooked on something. I'm sorry, I'm sure men don't near need beard combs, beard brushes, beard masks, and all beard I can't even um, but if somebody creates it, people will buy it. And men who have not been really marketed to as much with quote unquote grooming products, they're excited.

SPEAKER_00 55:22

Yeah, specifically black men for sure.

SPEAKER_01 55:25

And you could say, oh, look at these guys, they're just wasting their money, or why are they doing that? But that's what consumer society does. It finds ways to create products that you don't need, but you might want. And I just think it's like, I I don't like the idea that people make it sound like black people are spending crazy amounts of money because they're just so foolish with their money. You I mean, again, look at white women and um like diet products, for example, or you know, uh anti-wrinkle products. You would be like, Well, nobody talks about it in the same kind of derogative terms of how much is spent to the numbers.

SPEAKER_00 56:10

And it's a lot, it's a it yes, and I'm so you know, that's an interesting point that you brought up because I didn't even consider that at all. And I know it, but I'd never thought to put the two together, you know. But for some reason, it is more derogatory that we will spend money on just trying to, you know, maintain our hair or, you know, or take care of our hair. And this is actually, in my opinion, more if you're gonna if you're aging, you're aging. You know, embrace it. Sometimes when you try not to age, you end up aging even worse. You know, you're trying to do the irreversible and you end up looking worse, you know. So, um, and for hair, not trying to say that, you know, the anti-aging is less important opposed to hair, you know, for you know, that certain uh group of people, it is just as important as it is for us when it comes to hair. But I know, you know, for me, I I don't mind aging gracefully. And then, but when it comes to my hair, I do want to be able to take care of my hair, you know. You know, aging is gonna just happen, you know. It just comes with the course of life, you know. But I do love how you broke that down. Like, why is I why is what we're doing for simple hair care, you know, or self-care, why is ours different from that one? It's not different, you know, it's not they spend millions of dollars on this, we spend millions of dollars on this, on this thing, you know. It's it's just about what is important to you, you know, what is your the value of your dollar worth investing in for yourself? You know, that's what it is, you know. Neither should be frowned upon, you know.

SPEAKER_01 57:59

Right. And but there's also the, you know, if black people didn't style their hair in ways that were quote unquote acceptable to mainstream society, we would hear about that too. Absolutely. And so it there it's like damned if you do, damned if you don't. But I just try to make people really think about the language they use and how they they you they share information with an with a bias that maybe they're not even aware of. Maybe they're just not aware of it because it's so regular, so common. Black women will spend this much on their hair. Well, put that number up against what do white women spend on their hair? What do white women spend coloring their hair? Like, whoo! It's not a good thing. You know, or what do they spend on like, you know, anti-aging serums?

SPEAKER_00 58:48

That I don't believe work at all. Oh, I don't think they do either. Oh my best.

SPEAKER_01 58:54

But that's the thing. They don't get you, they're gonna make you buy. Yeah. Buy, buy, buy, because they're it and it's like first you have to put this layer and then you have to get this product, and then you need to use the drops, and then on top of that, sit at this, I don't even know. But um, I don't see those numbers flaunted the same way that like, and it's like you said, you're gonna age. Yeah. But it's inevitable. But you're gonna fight it like, and you know what? If that's what you want to do, of course, you go ahead and do it. But when you talk about the numbers that the this particular group spends trying to retard time, trying to, you know, create a miracle of time travel, we don't put it in the same language and don't like use those numbers in a way that I believe is subtly derogatory to black women when they use those, when they talk about how much money we spend on our hair.

SPEAKER_00 59:55

It's more promoted for them, you know, promoted in an influential, in an influential positive way. You know, it's definitely it I've never seen derogatory language around it at all whenever um the topic is being discussed. Never I've never seen that.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:12

The numbers aren't even pulled. Nobody's pulling those numbers.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:15

I mean, somebody's pulling them in a boardroom. Like, keep keep selling anti-wrinkle cream to white women, they'll eat it up. They need it, like, and also keep advertising and making them feel bad about those wrinkles, and they will keep. I mean, it's a vicious cycle. It is. It's I mean, it's and I'm nobody is blaming anybody. I'm just pointing out how that billion-dollar hair care industry, black hair industry. Um even when I say it's recession proof, like I'm not saying that with any bias, but other people will use that. Like, even when they don't have a job, black women will, you know, take care of their hair.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:51

Yeah, you know, that kind of thing. They'll get their hair done before they pay a bill.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:55

Right. And while there's all kind of nuance in there, but it's painting this broad swath of this idea that black women, because the numbers don't lie, but that they somehow are negligent, yeah, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:11

Financially, yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:12

But again, if you don't have a job and you have to get a job and your hair doesn't look right, guess who's not getting that job?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:19

We're not. We're not. That's true. That's very true. So we've cut it. We we are over time. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:33

Give me one last question and we'll do it.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:35

And we may need to do a part two because these are some great questions that we didn't get to touch on. If you can carve out another day, another hour in your schedule, I would really appreciate it. We'll do a part two. We'll do a part two. Yeah, let's do a part two. What should we leave the people with now?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:51

What what are we with them so that they'll come back?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:54

We'll live on a clip hanger.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:55

If you could correct one major misconception about black hair, what would it be?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:01

This

The Misconception To Unlearn

SPEAKER_01 1:02:02

is a great question, and thank you for asking it. But black hair is only difficult if you don't know how to deal with it. Black hair is only complicated when it's removed from its uh natural environment. Black hair is an issue when you put it in white society that doesn't know anything about it and has preconceived notions about it. We as black people have been so brainwashed to believe that our hair is a problem, that it's difficult, it takes so much time, that it's you know problematic in the workplace. And this these things you could say are true because of white supremacy, not because they are inherently true, right? The a lot of times, I mean, growing up, depending on how old you are, your own mother would tell you, oh, your hair is so difficult to manage, I can't do anything with it unless I relax it or do something to it. Oh, it's so difficult. So you think your hair is difficult. Well, if your mother knew, like, use a lot of conditioner in your hair or do this or do that, she would realize that's actually not that big a deal, but she didn't know, she didn't have the information. So I want people to black people particularly to stop thinking of their hair as difficult and start thinking of their hair as unique, special, like um a work of art. Which often, if you have a work of art, you treat it specially, sacredly, delicately, because you don't just have to, you know, wash and go a big work of art, right? You you care for it, you're very precious with it because it is delicate and special. I would like people to talk, use those adjectives when discussing black hair. It is delicate and special, and so we take really good care of it, right? We take very good quality care. We use good products, we take our time because it is so unique, so special, it is delicate, and it will grow and be beautiful because we take such good care of it. That's that's it. Yes, that's how I want people to uh to reframe black hair.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:59

It's that unconditioning that we have to overcome. You know, even reading your book, I know a lot about the anatomy and physiology of hair, but I wanted to know the history of hair and how do we arrive where we are today with our hair? Like you use those terms like difficult, hard to manage, hard to comb. You know, I I wanted to learn how did we get there? Because we were never there before, you know. Exactly. And that's also the message that I would try to, you know, encourage my clients, you know, whenever they would sit in a chair and and they are down, depressed about their hair, having to conform to whatever standard it is that they've made to believe that needed to be done to their hair, you know. And I would always say, just tell me one thing you do love about your hair. And let's work on that. Just focus on that one thing. And eventually I'm hoping it will grow and evolve and elevate to you finding something else you do love about your hair. But you also have to believe it too. You just can't say it. You have to also find that one thing that you love. Sit with that, believe it. Whenever you're combing your hair, doing your hair, tell yourself that one thing. And eventually, I'm hoping all these negative thoughts that you have, you know, surrounded around doing your hair, whatever it is that you want to apply to it, it will eventually just become minimal. You know? And um, and that's why I wanted to learn so much about the pre-colonial experience. Because that that's very important. Because I do feel like if that was one, I actually brought up your book at the um event yesterday. And we were talking about how do we stop this? Like when you were mentioning like using all this derogatory language to ourselves about our hair. And I told them, I was like, I I invested in some hair history books, you know. I was like one by Laurie L. Tharps. That's why I've been reading her book, trying to understand how do we get here? And I believe how we get back to where we were is undoing. And that's learning the historical context, you know, about our hair. So I just I thank you endlessly for what you are doing for black women, for our hair, our history, keeping that history alive, you know. So, you know, for any black woman that wants to unlearn, that wants to undo, that needs that foundation in order to overcome the suppression, the oppression, you know, the ways that we had to learn to conform in order to just be accepted and seen in society, I know for sure this book can get them there. You know, because there, you know, like you you mentioned, some of this language came from our homes, but that also was passed down, you know, from the oppression, you know? So that's that's been my take on it. I'm like, just learn the history, how sacred, how symbolic it was to us, how meaningful it was to us, how it unified us as a community, you know. And I believe once you can learn that and then learn how the system plays and toys on your vulnerability and, you know, your insecurity, how it plays on that. Stop trying to control the hair. Our hair doesn't want to be controlled. It's wild, you know. And wild is a good thing. You were made to believe in condition that it was not, you know, the edge control. Your edges don't need to be controlled. They can be naturally lived in, you know, the anti-frizz, trying to control the frizz. You don't have to control frizz. Like your hair don't, I don't believe our hair won't want to be controlled, you know. It don't. It don't want to be controlled. So stop going against it and work with it. That's everything that I heard you just say, and also everything that I've heard, you know, I've read in your book. You know, that's the information that I've been gathering, writing down my notes, trying, and that's why it takes me a long time to get through a book. I don't just read it, I have to write down notes, you know, so I can, you know, also absorb what I'm reading, try to reach a higher level of understanding of the message that I am reading. So that's excellent. I really, I thank you so much. I don't know how to thank you enough. I wish we could have met in person so I can give you a big hug and thank you. And that way, I'm just happy that someone is out there keeping that message alive. Because so much of our history gets watered down.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:38

It does. And that's why it's so important to write the books and get the books out there. And I I am so thankful that you are sharing the message about the book because once like the reason we wrote it is exactly for what you're saying is that unfortunately our history was lost, and then it was an a new version was given to us, to our ancestors, and they unfortunately had nothing else to believe. They've been brainwashed over the centuries and lost that connection with their hair history, with their hair stories. Um, and so we have to relearn it, but it's okay because we can. We have that the book, and we wrote that to we wrote that so black people could fall in love with their hair again. It's not so that they have to wear their hair in a certain style. It's not about like, oh, we're gonna tell you you have to wear your hair natural. You can wear your hair any way you want to, but because you want to, not because you feel inferior or insecure about your hair. And I personally, when I wrote the book, I cut my relaxer off after because I felt so empowered. I wanted to feel the I hadn't felt my natural hair in decades because I'd been relaxing my hair since I was little. So just the knowledge of how powerful our hair was and what it meant in Africa and how it, you know, as it it was the basis of all these industries starting and these, you know, hair millionaires. I was like, what? This stuff is incredible. I can't be suaving chemicals on it. This my hair needs to be free. I need to touch it and feel it and give thanks. And it's so strong and powerful. So just that knowledge will, I think, make people um feel differently about their hair. So that's also like what really has to happen.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:25

So that's right.

Where To Find Lori And The Book

SPEAKER_00 1:11:27

Let our audience know how we can find you and connect with you. And I will also be sharing the Amazon link in the show notes so that they can also take advantage of this brilliant masterpiece that she wrote that I'm ever so grateful for. So please let us know how we can stay in touch with you.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:46

Yes, you can find me on my website. It's just my name, Lori, and my middle initial ltharps.com. And it's L-O-R-I-L-T isn't tom home. Lori Ltharps.com. And if you find if you live near an independent bookstore, please buy the book there. And if they don't have it, ask them to carry it. Um, it's very likely that they won't have it on their shelves because it did come out in 2024, but they can order it. Anybody can order it in a minute, in a heartbeat. So, you know, we want to keep those black-owned bookstores, particularly in business. So that's my only like caveat is if you can buy from an indie bookstore, please try to. If you have to give Jeff Bezos your money on Amazon, it's okay as long as you're buying my book. Um listen. But we want to keep those black-owned bookstores because again, that's they're gonna be the ones that keep this information available. So we want to support them so that we can find books like mine and others who are telling us this missing histories and these truths and these inspirational stories. So that's my little plug for the indie black-owned bookstores if there's one near you.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:01

Yes. Thank you so much for that information because I need to consider that as well. So thank you again. I will be following up for a part two so that we can continue this conversation because we didn't get through half the segment. So we have to get to these questions. So I thank you again for all the information that you were able to provide during our session today. You're welcome. Thank you for having me. You're welcome. And

Closing Reflection And Share

SPEAKER_00 1:13:27

that right there is the conversation we needed because at some point we have to stop internalizing messages that were never created for our well-being in the first place. Our hair has always been more than just hair. It's identity, it's culture, it's history. And for a long time, it's always been a target. Not because it's lacking, but because it's powerful. So maybe the goal isn't to keep trying to fix our hair. Maybe it's to start questioning the system that told us it needed fixing at all. Huge thank you to Lori L. Tharps for coming on and giving us the history, the truth, and the context that so many of us were missing. And as always, if this episode made you think a little differently, feel a little deeper, or question something you've always believed, make sure you share it. This is Hair What I'm Saying, and I'll catch you in the next one.