Black Hair in Uniform: Who Were Military Standards Written For?

What happens when your hair won't stay in regulation, your beret rubs out your edges, and the water on deployment is turning your hair orange?

In this episode of Hair What I'm Saying, veteran Jacinda Mitchell shares what it was really like navigating Black hair in uniform while serving more than 23 years in the military. From getting her entire squad smoked because her ponytail wouldn't stay up during basic training to cutting her hair just to survive military life, Jacinda offers an honest look at the realities behind military standards that weren't designed with textured hair in mind.

Together, we explore the physical and emotional impact of strict grooming regulations, creative workarounds like sewing satin into berets, the challenges of caring for natural hair during deployments, and the quiet sacrifices many Black women made in the name of professionalism.

But this conversation reaches beyond military service. Jacinda reflects on entering corporate America, where replacing straight wigs with her natural afro changed the way colleagues perceived her, proving that conversations about Black hair, identity, and professionalism don't end when the uniform comes off.

If you've ever wondered who the standards were written for, this episode offers a thoughtful and deeply personal perspective on service, resilience, and authenticity.

Subscribe, leave a review, and share this episode with someone who needs to hear this conversation.

Want to hear more of Jacinda's story? Click Here and visit the VA's Make the Connection. It's a free resource where veterans share personal experiences to encourage, support, and help others navigating similar challenges.

Transcript

Hair, Identity, And Military Standards

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Welcome back to Hair What I'm Saying, the podcast where we explore black texture hair experiences through culture, identity, history, and the science of hair. Today's episode is one that reminds us that hair has never been just about appearance. For decades, military grooming standards influenced how black service members cared for their hair, often requiring them to navigate rules that weren't originally created with textured hair in mind. For many, those standards impacted not only how they looked, but how they felt, how they were perceived professionally, and even the health of their hair and scalp. Welcome to the Hair What I'm Saying podcast. I'm your host, Kenitra Stewart. Today we have Jacinda Mitchell joining us to talk about our black hair experiences in the military while serving our country. Welcome to the show, Jacinda. How are you? Hi, Kenetra. I'm fine. How are you? I'm doing well. Thank you so much for accepting the invitation to join us on the Hair What I'm Saying podcast to share your perspective and also your experiences while serving our country, navigating through the extensive black hair standards. They weren't called black hair standards, but that's what it felt like.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

That's what it feels like.

SPEAKER_02 1:11

Yes. And also a special shout out to Mary for referring to Cinder, which is her close relative.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

That's my cousin. That's my crib crib buddy cousin right there.

SPEAKER_02 1:22

Crib buddy cousin. I love that. That that lets us know how close. Very close. Not only related, but y'all are in y'all's relationship. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. And Mary, I miss you and I still adore you almost eight years later. And I hope I can see you soon. You need to come visit Jacinda so we can all link up. Actually, she does owe me a visit. Okay. Yes, so we can all link up and just get and have a good time. That would be great. That would be so great. Yes.

Burner Questions And A 23-Year Path

SPEAKER_02 1:53

So I like to start off with. Well, I'm learning to start off with burner questions just to get us all relaxed and into the groove and flow of the hair what I'm saying podcast. And yeah, let's just start with the first burner question. What is your favorite duty station and why?

SPEAKER_00 2:11

Ooh. So 23 years gives you lots of places to be. So you know, really thinking about that. Um, but my first two duty stations was prior to me going from uh military intelligence to combat arms. So I was stationed at the Pentagon and I was stationed in Hawaii. And I and I had to think about those two places uh because of the difference in my experience. One, Hawaii off the bat. I'm from Bilexi, Mississippi. It's a beach town, so give me the beach all day long. That was a dream for me to be in Hawaii. Um and for a shafter Schofield. I was I lived on Schofield Barracks, but I worked at Field Station Kania. Oh, I was um military intelligence, and we lived, we we worked underground.

SPEAKER_02 2:54

That's right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

Yeah, so we worked underground. Um, but that three years was just wonderful, uh, just for all the things Hawaii would be. Uh and then being um not in combat arms, and those were my first two duty stations, I had no idea what I was in for when I switched over to combat arms. So um definitely favorite uh when it comes to just the whole you join the see the world and you go to these wonderful places and get to do these wonderful things. That that was both of those places for me.

SPEAKER_02 3:23

And that you said that was your first first and second duty stations.

SPEAKER_00 3:27

So we're talking 1990 through '94. Were you afraid? Um, not until they said we had to go to Go 401. Yeah. To uh, you know, Iraq. So I was I was actually in basic training when Panama just caused wrapped up. And my mom's calling, eat my baby out of the military.

SPEAKER_01 3:47

Mom, don't do that.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

Oh, she called those. Well, she was trying to call people. What, Red Cross? Anybody that would listen. And after that calmed down, then we immediately began ramping up into Operation Desert Shield, Desert Storm. And then so I kind of had a little bit of a detour between the Pentagon and Hawaii. Uh-uh. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 4:11

So I'm torn in between Hawaii and Fort Belvoir.

unknown 4:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:17

Yeah. I really like the DMV a lot. Yeah. I love the DMV too. Yes. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:22

That's where my quarters was when I was stationed at the Pentagon at Fort Bellevoir. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 4:26

I don't know if it's like the historic the buildings, the seasons.

SPEAKER_00 4:32

The seasons. The trees. You literally get all four seasons. You get all four seasons. Um I'm not a big snow fan, but uh it was fun because it was new for me again. Being from the south, I had never really been. I I think that was probably the first time I'd seen snow, really. I don't never seen snow.

SPEAKER_02 4:48

Especially in that amount. Yeah, that amount. As well. Because you know I'm from Louisiana, so you know it don't snow.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

You know what I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_02 4:55

Yeah, you know it don't snow down. Mississippi and Louisiana have like the same neighboring climate. So definitely. Yeah, so that was my first time experiencing it in that that amount, you know, but you know, we get like the little ice. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

And that's it. And everything shuts down because we're not used to that. But in Virginia, they keep rolling, right? And I would be at home as much as I could be. Absolutely. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 5:20

What was your longest deployment or assignment? And what was one thing that helped you get through it?

SPEAKER_00 5:26

Um, so uh definitely my short tour to Korea. So that's automatically 12 months. Uh-huh. And you're usually minus your family for those short tours. And I had uh two teenagers and a baby when I went to Korea for that short tour assignment. Uh and it was one of my most difficult and challenging professionally assignments as well. Uh, but my husband at the time, uh, he followed me three months later. So, and we planned it that way. We just so we could be over there together and get it over with. And that definitely, of course, made a difference to have my spouse there to be able to, when we did have downtime, to be able to at least keep that connection going, um, even though we both were away from the children. Right. So definitely um being co-located uh on a on a tour like that helped get through, you know, the difficult times.

SPEAKER_02 6:18

Yeah, I'm sure, for sure. It did. I never been deployed, so I don't have the experience, you know, of most, you know, military service members or, you know, even listening to your story, I'm like, I've never experienced that. You know.

SPEAKER_00 6:32

Oh, yeah, it's a it's a thing. And you know, it's Korea's, you get an overseas tour ribbon with Korea. It's still technically a war going on, it's a ceasefire. Uh, but yeah, deployments, and I've never now my ex, he did some 18-month tours in those Gulf War uh times because we just got stuck in places. Um, but I did not have that experience. So my longest has always been about 12 months um when I was deployed out. So either the short tours or, you know, Bosnia or Afghanistan, wherever I went, I never did more than the 12 months.

SPEAKER_02 7:04

What about in the Air Force? Because you did tell me you have Air Force. I did background.

Humanitarian Care In Rural Peru

SPEAKER_00 7:09

Spend seven years in the Air Force. Uh and my tour, uh my my my favorite tour for the Air Force, I did a tour in Peru. And it was a humanitarian tour. Oh, I've been so fulfilling. It was very fulfilling. Um be I I had switched to medic at that point. Um, so I was a pretty seasoned medic. I was a senior medic at that time. And just going into the um indigenous areas and providing care. Um the things we take for granted, aspirin, uh sunglasses. Uh the altitude is very high. And it really ruins and destroys your eyes early in life. And so to just get a hold of a pair of sunglasses in that area was amazing. And so we we had all those things. And um I recall uh I treated a young woman, she was pregnant and had become um ill, had a uh some kind of infection in her eye. And she needed h hospitalization and IV antibiotics, and we couldn't get that for her. So we set up an IV in a school where we were working out of and got her on her IV, and uh I was I was watching her. I was the one watching her the whole time for her IV antibiotics, and it was somebody captured a picture of me doing that, and I look at that all the time because it just reminds me of really what we take for granted here and what people, you know, really need and all the workarounds that people go through in other places just to get simple care. Because, you know, I was like, oh, okay, she can go to the hospital in Lima. And they're like, oh no, it's not that easy. And she had to stay there with us, and I was just changing her IVs and watching her IVs, watching her fluids, watching just everything, um, as if we were in the hospital.

SPEAKER_02 8:56

Right. Wow. That's very admirable.

SPEAKER_00 8:59

It's just doing what you gotta do.

SPEAKER_02 9:01

Yeah, that's right. I I'm sure she still remembers you to this day. You know, the way how you, you know, just bed sat her and made her sh made sure that she was good. I know she still remembers you to this day.

SPEAKER_00 9:13

Like, where is that lady? Yeah. Yeah. I just feel so bad. We had nowhere for her to lay down. She had to sit up in this, you know, those elementary schools. Oh, wow, the desks. Yes.

unknown 9:24

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 9:25

That's where she sat before that. So I mean, admiration to her um because you know, the will, the will to be healthy, the will to live, the will to be good for the baby. You can't, I mean, all that. I just gained so much from looking at her and the strength that it took for her to get what she needed.

SPEAKER_02 9:44

That's right. Absolutely. If someone who's never served spent one day in your booth, what's one thing they'd be most surprised to learn about you?

SPEAKER_00 9:54

So to learn about me? Or I mean your military life. Military life. Um, I think um a lot of a lot of realizations that I have, I learned after service or realized after service. Um, I always say, you know, I've I'm 13 years post-retirement now, and I'm like, when I retired, I retired from two other things getting up before sunrise. I don't know how I ever did that, and and all the physical activity, the PT and all that stuff. Um, but what I I'm surprised to see about myself retrospectively is just my um stamina, my resilience. Um and is a lot of things that you learn about yourself that surprises even you. Uh and that to me is the biggest thing. Like yeah, a lot of people would imagine, oh, you uh carry a lot of negative memories. And there are.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

Right.

SPEAKER_00 10:53

But the good, the lessons,

Post-Military Identity And New Leadership

SPEAKER_00 10:55

the person you become, uh, that always outweighs to me any of the unpleasant memories that I have of service. For sure. Yeah, it outweighs that.

SPEAKER_02 11:05

Do you feel like you had to relearn yourself post-military?

SPEAKER_00 11:07

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_02 11:09

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

I mean, literally, I purposely um when I was job searching, because some people retire, you know, after 20 plus years and they don't go back into work. And that's that's fine. I didn't choose to do that. I went straight into a second career uh in corporate too, I'm kind of corporate. Uh so but I purposely, I was being offered, of course, managerial level type jobs. And I was like, no, I I'm not ready for that.

SPEAKER_02 11:34

Like, I've been listening.

SPEAKER_00 11:36

No.

SPEAKER_02 11:37

I have been taking care of soldiers and airmen for a long time. I just want to be in my little spot, in my little place, give me my job.

SPEAKER_00 11:47

I don't wanna I don't wanna manage or no uh manage nobody. Nothing or anybody. Right? Just me. I had to figure out how to dress. I had to figure out how to dress. Oh, that's true. Oh my gosh. Yeah. My kids used to say, Mom, come on now. Don't worry, the browns, the the the the We gotta get rid of that, right? My husband saying that he dresses me. I mean, it was like I had to learn how to dress. I had to learn a new toolbox of how to lead. Yes. You know, a lot of people go, we want those military leaders coming out. I want that person. Yeah, but the way I know how to lead is not quite what you want in the boardroom. Like give me a minute. That's right. Yeah, give me a minute to figure out this thing. Let learn the lay of the land and understand, like you said, who I am and what things no longer serve me and what things I need to learn.

SPEAKER_02 12:32

That's right. Absolutely. Did you have that opportunity or you were pushed into that position? Um you just had to learn as you go.

SPEAKER_00 12:39

I did, I did. I was fortunate. Um, the gentleman that hired me, my director, my we were very close to this day. Uh, he called me the general for some reason. He introduced me as the general all the time.

SPEAKER_02 12:49

But see, did he have any prior military service? He did not. You know, it's so funny to me whenever civilians, you know, they've never had any military service or don't have any military background at all. General is the, I don't know what it is about that rank, but they give everyone. I'm like, there's officer and there's enlisted. Those are two things.

SPEAKER_00 13:10

Honestly, we're like, hey, I work for a living, right? That's right, yeah. So it was it was strange. But I will I walked into my first meeting rooms and it was like, yeah, there's the general. And I'm like, you know, okay. I have a name. It was it was crazy. Um, but I I was fortunate that I did. I took a position that would allow me that, first of all. So a complete cut and pay. Yeah. But I needed that more. And in that, I grew. I have a great work family. I'm still at the same place. I have not moved. I work at the same place I started my second career at, so it's 14 years now.

SPEAKER_02 13:45

I was about to say, so 13 to 14 years. So you went to work right after the military. Right.

SPEAKER_00 13:49

You went right to work. Um, and then uh I've been at this same organization. Oh wow, congratulations. Thank you. I I guess I don't know how to move around though either. Because it's like we move around in the military, but you still get the checks still coming from the same person, you know, Uncle Sam. So it's the same thing. I I've I've been at this same place and I have been allowed to grow. Um, and I I have recently um, you know, been promoted into some senior levels, but I did take my time. I chose to take my time. Um I just I needed I need to fix some things about me, my life, my family uh before I took on that kind of responsibility. For sure. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 14:28

All right, well, we'll get on into the episode. Thank you so much for sharing. Those burner questions are I like the way that it's called. It's called burner for a reason. Like the warm-up. Like to warm us up and get us going and flowing. Yeah. All right.

Childhood Texturism And Colorism

SPEAKER_02 14:45

So growing up, what was your relationship with your hair?

SPEAKER_00 14:49

Ooh, definitely love hate. Definitely love hate. Um, uh, I I was the kid that had the good hair, you know, the quote-unquote good hair. Um, yeah, it was longer. It had a it's very thick, but it's still, you know, I had a a pattern that wasn't what you called kinky. You know, I I grew up in the 70s and 80s. We're still were very much had lingering effects of colorism and things like that. And you're from Louisiana, right? So you know my half my family is Creole. So you know how it is. It's gonna be I was too dark to be light, and too light to be dark, but I had long hair. And but you know, when you're in a family that's a rainbow.

SPEAKER_02 15:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:31

Uh I I remember when I was young, my my younger sister, uh, she would cry when I would get my hair done. And my our grandmarriage raised us. So my grandmother would, you know, she's braiding my hair and she'd be like, Okay, you gotta get up and walk out a little bit so she could finish braiding my hair so long to the end. And it it made my sister sad because she didn't have the type of hair I had. And that you know, that bothered me. And in school, I was the kid that I had my hair cut once behind me. The little girl behind me cut my hair, you know, from the desk.

SPEAKER_02 16:04

Oh M.

SPEAKER_00 16:06

Yeah, had that happen to me.

SPEAKER_02 16:08

Okay, all right. We got some unpacking to do. Okay. So for your sister, describe her hair texture for me.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

Um, it's I mean, she's definitely the 4C, you know, kinky. So kinky. And I'm not far from it. Kinky coily, curly. I'm kinky coily. She's kinky. Oh, just okay. Real kinky. Um, and and you know, she didn't have length um to to her hair.

SPEAKER_02 16:29

Okay. Uh so she admired your hair.

SPEAKER_00 16:32

She admired it. And for me, it was a pain. My hair was a pain.

SPEAKER_02 16:36

Because it was so much.

SPEAKER_00 16:37

It was so much. It was so much to get through, um, to get done. And then, you know, again, my grandparents raised us, so they were born in the 20s. Very con, you know, very conservative. So my grandmother would be tying them braised tight and pinning them to my head, and I'd have headaches and all this kind of stuff. And I'm like, oh my God. Um, I was older when I really realized what my sister may have been going through.

SPEAKER_02 17:01

How many years apart are y'all?

SPEAKER_00 17:02

We're three, a little over three years apart.

SPEAKER_02 17:04

So that's pretty close in age, too. Pretty close in age. Um did she ever make comments like, why didn't I get your hair? Uh-huh. Definitely. What would you say?

SPEAKER_00 17:13

You know, as a kid, I didn't know what to say. Right. Um, and uh we didn't share the same paternal line. And so it it was just something that it made me feel bad because I felt helpless. I I didn't know what to do. Uh as soon as I was old enough, I cut my hair.

SPEAKER_02 17:34

Oh, do you think that was because of your experiences like you brought up about the kid that cut your hair in school? How old were you when that happened? I was about 14. 14? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:44

I'm thinking you're in elementary. Fourteen. I was 14 when I first cut.

SPEAKER_02 17:49

The freshman in high school?

SPEAKER_00 17:50

Yeah, maybe eighth grade. So maybe 13 or something.

SPEAKER_02 17:53

That's still old.

SPEAKER_00 17:54

It it it was it was, yeah. I was scared. My grandfather, oh, you didn't cut your hair. You know how it is. You don't get the hair, especially if you got the good hair.

SPEAKER_02 18:02

That's right. Because length would equal, you know, femininity. You're beautiful, and you know, you know what it all comes to it. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 18:09

And short hair was not the thing. It was just not the thing. It was one of those judgment lines.

SPEAKER_02 18:13

So did you know this girl that cut it was um Oh yeah. You knew her. Were y'all friends or were was she like that that was a kid?

SPEAKER_00 18:22

She was a bully.

SPEAKER_02 18:22

Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:23

And definitely, you know, every year we had a fight about something.

SPEAKER_02 18:27

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 18:27

So she was was it envy?

unknown 18:29

She was.

SPEAKER_00 18:29

And now I think so too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:31

What about her hair? What did it look like?

SPEAKER_00 18:33

She now this young lady happened to be much lighter skinned than I, but she didn't have the good hair, you know, that thing. Yeah. Two. And um, I think that had a lot to do to do with it.

Bullying, Haircuts, And Family Pressure

SPEAKER_02 18:44

So walk me through that the day that she cut your hair. Like w when it happened. Like, what was going on?

SPEAKER_00 18:50

So I I didn't we were in, you know, class, and you know, we're sitting together in those desks all back butted up to each other. And uh I kept feeling, you know, like, and I'm like, and she would do that. She would mess with my hair and pick with me and stuff, and then I'd be getting in trouble because it's like, what's wrong with you? You know, over there.

SPEAKER_02 19:06

Because it looks you're more noticeable turning around, trying to see what's going on. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 19:11

That was the kind of that was the kind of relationship we had that year. Um uh, but uh it wasn't until I I think it was the uh guy, I and I'm trying to keep from calling names, right? Yeah, for sure, yeah. It was one of our guy friends. Um, we're all still friends this day. Uh he was like because he saw like this, you know.

SPEAKER_02 19:32

How much of your hair did she cut?

SPEAKER_00 19:35

Probably when I was recalling this, preparing, I was saying maybe about two inches of one ponytail.

SPEAKER_01 19:42

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 19:43

So then, of course, I had to get it cut to even it up.

SPEAKER_02 19:47

That's right, because if she cut it in a ponytail, it's it's uneven.

SPEAKER_00 19:51

Like I had the pigtails, and so, but they were in the back, like you know, like low pigtails in the back. And so it's kind of hanging, you know, over it and it's she just kind of quietly.

SPEAKER_02 20:00

What happened after she cut it? What she didn't bring gasp out air.

SPEAKER_00 20:04

I'm thinking, you oh, I'm like, I'm gonna get in trouble at home.

SPEAKER_02 20:06

Oh, you weren't even worried about it.

SPEAKER_00 20:08

I'm gonna get in trouble at home. And then of course, you know, the argument breaks up. Because I think we're in like fifth grade when this happened. Yeah. Um, like that. And uh, of course, she gets sent to the office and all of these things.

SPEAKER_02 20:19

What were the consequences?

SPEAKER_00 20:20

Uh, and I you know, I don't even remember or know um what that what ended up happening like with her. Uh it was when I first got the idea of, okay, I can cut this hair.

SPEAKER_02 20:34

You wanted to cut it. So was it uh it it was like relieving for you?

SPEAKER_00 20:38

Yeah, I I I was at that at that point I was tired of looking at my sister and how she felt and the things that she would say and I wish this or wish that. Yeah. So I I wasn't, yeah, I wasn't, I don't think I was as upset about it, other than that. Yeah, because you didn't even say that.

SPEAKER_02 20:55

You didn't even mention that at all. You was like, I was worried about what was gonna happen at home. You know, immediately, me, I'd be like, oh girl, we about to fight.

SPEAKER_00 21:02

I'm about to beat to fight that girl. We every year we would fight about something. She was just a bully. So at that point, I'm like, I don't want to fight you. The fight, the fights ended in seventh grade, but that was our last fight. We were over it. Yeah. It was just like at that point, that relationship, when you asked, like, what was my relationship with my hair? It was definitely love, hate. And the hate was just real um with you know, feeling like I couldn't do something to help my sister feel better.

SPEAKER_02 21:33

Right. Right. And then also the extra attention. Yeah. Unwanted. You just trying to unwanted. Right. You're just trying to exist. Yeah. You know, and then you being, you know, bullied and picked on because of your hair. It's so interesting how you can get picked on for having the ideal quote unquote hair. Yeah. And then the not so ideal, quote unquote, hair.

SPEAKER_00 21:54

It's like you can't even breathe. To this day, I hate that term good hair. Yes, for sure. A show done about that. It was with Chris Rock. Yes. And I I just hate that. Um, you know, and but those are things that we we learn and and we've learned and had the opportunity to learn over in our time, our era has definitely changed things. But I definitely grew up in the era of good hair. Me too. I did. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:18

It still is a thing. You know, it is, especially back at home. I hear it. When I go home, I'm gonna hear. Yeah, when I go home, I'm gonna hear that good hair, bad hair, I'm gonna hear if it's not about texturism, it's gonna be about colorism. Like, ooh, girl, you done got so black. You must have been really out there in that sun. Yeah, it's a real thing. It sure is. And I'm just like, the way how y'all try to run away from what just naturally is is very concerning.

SPEAKER_00 22:45

I mean, it it it is. It is amazing.

SPEAKER_02 22:48

It's concerning. I'm like, we have to move on. I don't know. It's I know, you know, it's it's you know, it goes way back into time. You know, it's systematic. Yes, you know, it's it's so much oppression to undo and relearn, but you also have to be open to receiving it as well.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

And that's the part right there. Um you have to be open to to the fact of one understanding the programming, the programming, and then understand just how much it takes to unlearn something that's generationally embedded in our spirits.

SPEAKER_02 23:25

Yep. Literally in our spirits, it's beyond aesthetics at this point. It is, it sure is. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Who usually did your hair? So you did say your grandmother. She usually did your hair. How would she style uh how would she style your hair? Because my grandmother done my hair a lot too when I was little and I hated it. She knew how to take care of it. But the way how she styled it, I used to be like, what is going on? I wanted to wear a head all day at school. I couldn't stand it.

SPEAKER_00 23:52

It was definitely a thing. Um I have no idea why she preferred this bun on the top of my head. Now, okay. You've got heavy hair. Because it's heavy, it's thick.

SPEAKER_02 24:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:08

Right? And a link some length to it. And then you pile it all in the crown of the head, and then you pin it down with the bobby pins.

SPEAKER_02 24:16

Headaches. All day, every day. Yeah. So it was So would it be like a donut bun or like you had like the wrap around the round?

SPEAKER_00 24:26

Or I would have, you know, the two pigtails.

SPEAKER_02 24:30

Um well, at least she knew something about fashion. Because I mean, yeah, it sounded very um, you know, like it wasn't a comfortable hairstyle. It was not. Yeah, I my my hairstyles were comfortable, but sometimes you know what comes with comfort. It ain't cute.

SPEAKER_00 24:47

It ain't cute at all. It ain't cute. Or, and and the other thing would be she didn't want it loose and didn't want it coming loose. That was my grandmother's thing. Right? Hair had to be uh tied up, pinned up.

SPEAKER_02 24:59

Was it because of detangling having to?

SPEAKER_00 25:01

I don't even know if it was that. I just really think it was her the era that she came up in. Um, you just you you you didn't wear your hair out and loose. You was a floosie if you didn't if you wore your hair out and loose. But detangling probably had a lot to do with it, of course, because if I would come home and had let my hair get in the wind and wild and oh man, it would be, you know, a mess. Uh it would be it would be hectic. So I think I think it was some a matter of both, probably. But definitely um because you didn't wear because even being allowed to wear my hair down, that was a conversation. Yeah, when I turned 12. I was like, I want to get a perm and wear my hair down.

SPEAKER_02 25:41

Considered a mature hairstyle? Right, right. Yeah, that's how it was for us too. It was a mature hairstyle. Too mature, too grand.

SPEAKER_00 25:48

Yeah, too ground. Can't wear your hair down. So um she tied that hair to my head, man. And oh God.

SPEAKER_02 25:55

Yeah, yeah. My hairstyles, I I can't even describe them. I think she just went with the wind. And whatever it came out to be, that's what's what it was. Oh my god. But my mom was very great at, you know, styling and doing our hair. Very cute, very eclectic, looking cute. She could braid, so we have the beads, you know.

SPEAKER_00 26:15

I didn't have all that. I'd have to go somewhere. Now I have an aunt, um, she's passed on now, but uh, she was a stylist.

SPEAKER_02 26:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:22

And so she was, but and she was progressive. Yeah. You know, of course. Most times stylists are, they're progressive. That's right. So she was very progressive. Um, and so as I started wanting to get out of that, you know, stage when I started trying like 13, 14, you know, I would go and let and she would do my hair and stuff. So she gave me that first haircut. Lord have mercy. Ooh. Wow. Well, oh, because we both got in trouble. I don't think my grandparents spoke to her for a whole year after that. A whole year. Oh, probably not. Oh my God. No, I mean, literally.

SPEAKER_02 26:54

We both got in trouble. So how many years apart are you and your aunt? So my aunt.

Presses, Relaxers, And Scalp Damage

SPEAKER_02 27:00

I'm just thinking about the age and her having to get reprimanded too.

SPEAKER_01 27:04

Look, she would, she's probably maybe 18, 19 years older than that.

SPEAKER_02 27:11

Relatively like a huge age gap. Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. She was, she was so what happened?

SPEAKER_00 27:16

What happened? Yeah. So what was the haircut style? And then tell us what happened. I went straight short, asymmetrical bob of the of the 90s.

SPEAKER_02 27:23

And it was uneven. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I know she didn't appreciate that at all. At least if it was even and could maybe there would maybe have been some room for acceptance, but you went asymmetric.

SPEAKER_00 27:34

But you already, my mom had already crossed the line when she took me to get a perm when I was 12. Because the hair was like this. And I was like, I want a perm. And she took me to go get the perm, right? Um, and of course, it burnt my scalp. Absolutely. Burned my scalp.

SPEAKER_02 27:51

Especially considering how much hair you had. And I have seen a lot of professionals apply too much to when the hair is. Yeah, and it's like the technique is not there because they start right at the scalp, and you're not supposed to. Yeah, you're supposed to start at least two inches away from the new grow, and then you come back and retouch the new girl. So when they start right at the new grow, and then you have all this hair to relax, that means that process has stayed on your scalp way too long.

SPEAKER_00 28:15

Because it wasn't mine who did it. She my mom took me to a salon. Yeah. And it was some white people.

SPEAKER_02 28:22

So it was a white woman that gave you a relaxing.

SPEAKER_00 28:24

My first relax.

SPEAKER_02 28:25

How did y'all confidently make that decision, especially baby? She just wanted a pern. You didn't care. And my mom took me.

SPEAKER_00 28:33

So there were no black hair salons? I don't I I I don't know how she came to that. What happened? I really don't. Um, but it was, I remember the name L'Oreal, so I know that it was.

SPEAKER_02 28:44

Oh, so that was like a professional.

SPEAKER_00 28:46

I was a professional. And I I'm thinking that she, you know, wanted to make sure I had a professional. You know, because we had kitchen petitions. Come on, you know, okay. Well, we didn't grow up going to the hair salon unless it was something our kitchen beautician couldn't do. Yeah. Yeah. So um I think she was trying to make a better decision about this first perm. Which is very thoughtful. And yeah, that's how that worked out. Uh so my hair by 14, it's just getting back right from Yeah, from that experience.

SPEAKER_02 29:17

Yeah, for sure. So was the so it burned, but that was all you remember was did it come out straight?

SPEAKER_00 29:23

It did, it did, and it didn't last long. And as soon as the humidity hit it, boom, you know, I would still get that fuss. So no, it did not. Because like you said, it wasn't done right.

SPEAKER_02 29:32

I wonder, too, did you ever receive any haircuts or trims up until that time?

SPEAKER_00 29:37

Oh no, by the time my grandparents by the time my grandparents got done with us about that, that scissors weren't coming near my head. But yo, no, routine trims and things like that prior to um, no, I don't recall that was what it was. So still probably a lot of dead ends already.

SPEAKER_02 29:55

Yeah. And and when I tell you dead ends, like a chemical can't even straighten that straighten that out.

SPEAKER_00 29:59

Yeah, you're totally right.

SPEAKER_02 30:01

Yeah, because I see it a lot uh whenever I was behind the chair, and parents would do like an at-home relaxer, and then like a couple of months they'll bring their child to me, and they will say, like, the ends didn't take, like the mid shaft all the way down to the ends didn't take. Because that's all split in. It's and now and it would be split. It'd be like, oh, well, if we cut all this off, it'll actually stay straight.

SPEAKER_00 30:21

I definitely don't recall having routine trims and things like that. So yeah, that that person.

SPEAKER_02 30:26

Because I'm telling that relaxer is gonna work. You put it on there and the hair is nice and healthy. Oh, it's gonna straighten your hair. Oh, yeah. It's gonna straighten your hair. Yeah, it's gonna straighten it. But usually it's always needing to cut or trim. Yeah. It was it was it was bad.

SPEAKER_00 30:40

So that that was that was a lot, but I was I was happy. Like I wanted that cut when my aunt cut my hair. I was so happy. And then you got the release. And then I had to go home, though. Then I had to go to my coach.

SPEAKER_02 30:52

Yes. So tell us about grandma. What did grandma say? How did grandma react and respond? And even grandpa, because sometimes they have that little two cents too.

SPEAKER_00 31:02

You know, it it was now my grandparents were not, um, they weren't the yelling kind of folks, you know. Good. They you just knew when they were extremely the aura, the manner. Extremely. Yes. Um, and so you know, my grandmother's like, mm-hmm. Yeah. And my grandfather, though, and he normally, you know, again, the old folks, so he left most of the disciplining, especially for the girls, to her. Uh, but yeah, he had something to say about that haircut. He had something to say about my aunt. Um, I he never really quite liked her again. Um, and she was she was married in some sense. She's a non-blood aunt, so he was quick to dismiss her.

SPEAKER_02 31:44

Oh, yeah. Got you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:45

So um that's very brave. It it was, but I was very close to her. Okay. Very, very close to this particular aunt. But um it just, yeah, that was a family drama.

SPEAKER_02 31:57

Yeah, I bet.

SPEAKER_00 31:58

It is that big of a deal, especially in the South. That was family drama.

SPEAKER_02 32:03

Yeah. What I am happy to hear is that you did grow up in an environment where your natural hair was accepted. Because usually most black women women's experiences is now we're gonna relax because I can't do nothing with this. It's too thick. You know. So you and I had similar experiences where, you know, my family was like, no, we're not relaxing her hair. Yeah. And then I got a relaxer. And no one was upset, but it was more like you shouldn't have done it. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 32:29

Now, did you get your hair pressed? Now, I had the pressing, especially for Easter. You know, you got to get that Easter pressing over.

SPEAKER_02 32:35

My aunt pressed my hair, my great aunt pressed my hair. Yeah, she pressed my hair. And that's when I was introduced to it, being straight, you know. Exactly. And you're like, oh, this is a thing. And you're swinging it, right? Yeah. Yeah, but you know, um, I only liked the press because my grandmother could comb it better. Yes. Pressed. And it didn't hurt. Exactly. And it was cuter. Yeah. Because I was definitely all about it being cute.

SPEAKER_00 32:58

Got your curls, you know, and your things going on. So definitely I loved it when we got, you know, we could get our hair pressed. Um, you know, but it was still kitchen tissue. It was a it was a lady that lived around the corner. She pressed all the folks here in the neighborhood. Yeah, it was. And we go over there with our little money in our hand.

SPEAKER_02 33:14

Yeah, I never received the pressed in a professional hair salon. It was my great aunt with her stove sitting in her little kitchen in her wooden chair. Yes. With that fire blazing with that comb.

SPEAKER_00 33:28

And the blue magic, girl. And the tssh, hold your ear.

SPEAKER_02 33:32

Hold it. She never burned me though. I don't know how she was able to get it so straight everywhere around my head, even my edges. And she, I never felt the heat from that comb. I can't say I had that experience. She was so great at that. She was. I will say, a lot of my cousins, they had like double the amount of hair I had. So maybe my hair was just like, girl, please come on. Yeah, I can get this real quick. Yeah, but her granddaughters and in also her daughters, they had a lot of hair. Like one, she has she has a set of twins, and uh one of the twins, her hair was waist length and it was thick. Waist length. So I was like, hey, my little hair girl, she probably like, girl, come on. You want me to knock this out? Exactly.

Basic Training Survival And Cutting Hair

SPEAKER_02 34:16

All right. So now we're going to shift and start um moving to your military experience with your hair. Navigating through all of that. So you listed, you I mean, you mentioned to me that you enlisted in 1989, correct? Okay. So how did you usually wear your hair then?

SPEAKER_00 34:34

Um, by then I was growing out from that bob. Okay. You know. So still relaxed. Still relaxing. Okay. Definitely still relaxing at that point. Um, but uh I was, you know, kind of growing out that that that uh that look. Um but it was still a loose, you know, like my you know, here or there, however I was at the time with the hair. Um by the time I actually shipped out, uh, my hair was long enough that I had to put it up in uniform.

SPEAKER_02 35:06

So back then buns were accepted because I know sometimes in different services um you have to cut your hair. So back then you didn't have to cut your hair?

SPEAKER_00 35:16

So it n definitely not in my experience were women told they had to cut their hair. Uh but let's just say I came out of basic training with less hair than I went in with.

SPEAKER_02 35:25

What?

SPEAKER_00 35:26

Yeah. So this was Air Force basic training. No, I initial I initially went in the army.

SPEAKER_02 35:31

Army first.

SPEAKER_00 35:32

I went army first.

SPEAKER_02 35:33

Okay, so it was nine weeks long for the training back then. Eight eight weeks.

SPEAKER_00 35:36

Eight weeks. Eight weeks.

SPEAKER_02 35:37

Okay, so how did you end up with less hair?

SPEAKER_00 35:40

Well, again, it had grew out long enough that I had to put it up in uniform, right? And so what you what you learn is because you don't think about hair when you're going in. You nobody tells you survival mode. You're survival mode. You don't know. Everything you learn, you you learn traumatically. So, you know, it's put your hair up. Um, and my ponytails for physical training, you know, in PT, they never stayed up. I didn't know how to keep a ponytail up. I at that point I wish I had had my grandmother putting those tight bones in my hair. Uh-huh. I had no idea how to keep it up. So as soon as you're done with PT, even you can be in the middle of a jumping jack. If your hair falls down, that drill sergeant is going to go off.

SPEAKER_02 36:22

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 36:23

Um, so by the time I got done getting my squad smoked all the time because, you know. Because of your hair. Because my hair was down. Oh I went and got uh and and you know, at at in the military base, you go to the little salon. They supposed supposedly have a salon and they just go, Oh, they and I was just like, Yeah, get cut it. Yeah. Just cut it down.

SPEAKER_02 36:45

And that was during basic training?

SPEAKER_00 36:46

Yes, I cut it during basic training.

SPEAKER_02 36:48

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 36:49

Uh yeah. I went.

SPEAKER_02 36:50

Did you receive any backlas from any of the um trainees?

SPEAKER_00 36:54

Oh, as long as we were getting smoked because my hair was down, yes. Yeah. What were they? It's not the kind of backlash you want.

SPEAKER_02 37:02

Because there's so many of them.

SPEAKER_00 37:03

It's it's you know, you're in a bay of, you know, 40 or so, four about 40 women. Yeah. Um and in and in my time in life, usually everyone was, you know, teenagers, 18, 19 years old. Nowadays, you go into basic training and you're gonna find 35-year-olds.

SPEAKER_02 37:20

Yes. That's how I was when I joined. I had a 31-year-old when I was 18.

SPEAKER_00 37:24

Um, but you know, you had a bunch of kids coming in from a bunch of different places, and um you certainly don't want to be the one getting everybody in trouble.

SPEAKER_02 37:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:32

Uh so it was quick for me to be like, uh, the next time we go to the PX, I'm getting my hair cut. I'm gonna have let them cut this hair off.

SPEAKER_02 37:40

How much did you allow them to cut?

SPEAKER_00 37:42

Enough that I didn't have to pin it up.

SPEAKER_02 37:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 37:45

So, you know, like above my collar. Yeah, back into that above my collar, way above my collar. So it was easier for you to manage. It was just easier to survive, definitely. You know.

SPEAKER_02 37:54

Okay, got you. What type of backlash would you receive?

SPEAKER_00 37:57

I mean, you know, from the from from everybody else, it's anything from not helping you. Why didn't they help you with your hair? Well, it's not necessarily helping with your hair part, but it's, you know, the whole point of basic training is you know, is you you learn how to do teen things together as a team. And so um, if you're the one that's causing everybody to do extra push-ups and things like that, you're gonna be the one that gets kind of pushed to the side. If So they didn't even try to help. If if we're polishing boots, you know, and you know, I need extra time. You got we because we would split up duties. It'd be like three of us would just sit down and polish everybody's boots while some other folks would go and do the laundry, right? That's right, yeah. And then I'd turn around and realize that my boots at the very end hadn't gotten to yet.

SPEAKER_02 38:42

You know, they hadn't gotten to mine. They just decided to cast you out. Well, what you gonna do? I mean, because I guess for me, I would have just been like, let me help you. You know, and then just tied your hair up and we would all have been one happy family. Nobody would have been getting 18 19-year-olds, right? That's true. You know? I still would have done it though. Yeah, everyone's that's true. It it depends. It is. Everybody, and maybe it's too much resentment at this point to help. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:10

Because you're in culture shock. You're in. I don't know what Air Force basic training was like back then. Um we used to laugh about it, though. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 39:19

You know what? Let me tell you. When I used to see uh soldiers on uh Barksdale Air Force Base, I used to avoid them. Because you just felt like, girl, that's an airman. You know, like that's not the real military. Because you would hear it all the time. Oh, yeah, that's true. You would hear it all the time, like from the Army and the Marines. We knew, like, okay, they're tough. They're serious. Yes, definitely. They have the best PT, you know, people and they're the best in shape. And, you know, just y'all had a different demeanor opposed to Air Force and Navy. Yes, yes. You know, so and we were wearing earrings.

SPEAKER_00 39:53

We got around for that. Oh, definitely. Definitely.

SPEAKER_02 39:58

When we saw y'all, it was like we wanted to straighten up and try to present ourselves to be better. You know, so when you said that, I'm like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:08

It definitely was. Um, but you know, that culture is is is is just there. I mean, my bunk mate, um, she ended up getting discharged. Uh, but I used to try to cover for her too with with what her issue was. Yeah. And then got to the point where other folks were squealing on her. Um, and she she had a an issue, so she she got discharged. Yeah. Uh there was the thief. Um you know, you're gonna always have that one. And you know, nobody's trying to help that person. Absolutely not.

SPEAKER_02 40:37

I don't know, I don't think I helped that person. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:39

Um, but after I got that haircut though, you know, I was I was good. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I was good.

SPEAKER_02 40:46

Would you have cut it if nobody had an issue with it?

SPEAKER_00 40:50

I mean, I definitely think that if I weren't getting in trouble for, you know, for not being able to meet that standard, and then, you know, in basic training, you just don't have time to figure it out. To me, the easiest thing was just cut it and figure it out later.

SPEAKER_02 41:02

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 41:03

You know, that's so true. Cut it off and figure it out later. It'll grow back. That was always my attitude about the hair in the first place. It's just hair, you know, with everything I had gone through as a child and kind of that experience and that love-hate experience. My my attitude, and still is to this day, is it's just hair.

SPEAKER_02 41:20

The good thing is it wasn't glorified. Because imagine if you went through basic training and you didn't have that experience with your hair where it was like, you know what, I'm kind of detached from it anyway because I don't like the unwanted attention that I get from it. I don't like my sister trying to compare herself to me because my hair is more quote unquote ideal than hers. So I the good thing is it created that detachment. So when you went to the military, it's like, cut this stuff off because I don't have time. I got time for this.

SPEAKER_00 41:46

I'm on top of this. I don't have time for it.

SPEAKER_02 41:49

Oh my goodness. Did you think your hair stood would mat your hairstyle would matter once you joined the military? I had no clue.

SPEAKER_00 41:58

I had no clue your hairstyle mattered um at all. It's just one of those things. It's it's almost an initiation. It's just things you learn. When you get to basic training, there's a whole lot of things you're gonna learn that you have no clue about until you get there, and it's just part of it. Um and definitely it was a getting thrown into the deep end lesson.

SPEAKER_02 42:19

The only thing I was worried about because I heard all the stories of you would have to cut your hair. Like you have to cut your hair. And like I said, I grew up in Louisiana. You cut your hair, it gotta be for good reason. We don't just go cut our hair, yeah. And so I was like, Well, I'm not joining no military if I gotta cut my hair. And then that's when the recruiter was like, Oh no, you just put it in a bun. And it was like, no, that's not I think men have to cut their hair. Right, right, right. And so uh that was the only thing I was concerned about. Now, all that other stuff I had no idea about. So, like you say, it was just kind of thrown into the fire, learned as you go right, yeah. And so that was very shocking for me, you know, because I'm like, nobody's talking about this. Oof, those so many things. Yeah, exactly. Before joining, have you heard someone say military regulations could affect black women's hair? Not at all.

SPEAKER_00 43:10

Strangely enough, I grew up in a military town.

SPEAKER_02 43:13

Yeah, like Biloxi.

SPEAKER_00 43:14

But it was an Air Force town.

SPEAKER_02 43:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:16

So I saw military women when I saw them with earrings in and with their hair looking a little cuter than what you find in the you know, you found in the army at that time. That's right. So that exposure to what a woman in uniform looked like was different than what I ended up initially joining. Um because I joined the army. Yeah. But I grew up in an Air Force town.

SPEAKER_02 43:40

Why did you choose the Army over the Air Force since it was more Air Force affiliated? Um, I definitely wanted to go in the Air Force.

SPEAKER_00 43:46

I went and knocked on the Air Force recruiter's door. Uh but um I was a mom by the time I graduated high school. And at that time, there was there was no entry into the Air Force under those conditions. Um but the Army recruiter was standing right there. They'd be ready. Yeah, they're ready. Yeah. So uh I went into the army out of second choice, I guess you would say. Um, but looking back to, especially after I had the opportunity to serve in the Air Force, I actually I I'm okay that I I'm glad I was in the Army, to be honest. Um, it gave me some lessons that I'm not sure the Air Force would have been able to give me.

SPEAKER_02 44:26

I agree. I know when people ask me which one I like better, I'm like, there there are so many pros and cons to both. It's it's all about your experience and what you got from both. Both, yeah. You know, I was like, but for different reasons I would choose the army. For the for different reasons I would choose the Air Force. But I know I used to say, um, if you want to make rank, join the army. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:51

Then that was the case. Now it's a little different, but it evolved. But definitely then that was the case.

SPEAKER_02 44:57

Yeah, yeah. Back then it was like, you want to make rank. I also said, you know, the militar the uh the army was more black affiliated to me. I saw more black people in the army opposed to the Air Force whenever I joined. So I was like, that felt more like culturally home. I don't know. It was a different aura and experience. And also listening to some of the drill sergeants uh, you know, go in on some of the soldiers, you know. I was like, it was just different because in the Air Force, the when we would get cursed out, it was like professionally and emotionally, like psychologically traumatizing. So it was like, I'm not used to this, you know, like what is that? And why am I responding this way? And why am I more scared? But in the army, it was like, oh, that sounds like my grandpa, my grandma, somebody cussing me out. I'm more exactly. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. So it's like I said, it's just it just really depends.

SPEAKER_00 45:54

It depends, it depends on everything. It depends on everything you bring into the situation as well. Yeah. And how your coping skills and how you respond. Um, you know, I have a nephew that just graduated uh Air Force Basic Training down in Lackland just a couple weeks ago. And uh he went to college first and he pledged Kappa. So he's like, this stuff is hilarious to me. Exactly. Because after you pledge kappa, you know, what can you do? You know. So it definitely depends on what you're bringing to the table.

SPEAKER_02 46:22

That's right. And so you saw, so you had a different POV because you saw airmen and they had earrings. And they did they have ponytails back then?

SPEAKER_00 46:32

Um because you know, yeah, they they can wear ponytails now. I don't think that was the case then. There was still, you know, buns and the hair up. Yeah, but it was the earrings for me because they in the in the makeup. They could, you know, they wore makeup. Yeah. And I'm like, okay. Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. Did you join the army? Did you join the army? It was like, what? Makeup. What is this making for me? Like, what you mean makeup for?

SPEAKER_02 46:55

Yeah. We're at war. Exactly. So

Standards Written For Someone Else

SPEAKER_02 46:58

yeah. Different, different experience for sure. So walk me through your first experience learning the grooming standards and what stood out to you the most.

SPEAKER_00 47:08

Oh, Lord. So it it definitely was, it's definitely gonna be that that physical training and the and the hair falling. You know, because you you learn off the bat. You know, you have this course, they sit you in a class and go, This is AR670-1, and your hair can't come above, you're hollering, it can't do this and can't do it, and you're getting the knife hand while they're telling you, you know. That knife hand was. That knife hand is the bottom, right? But at the end of the day, that's not how we learned our lessons. Not from no book, right? We learned our lessons from actually sometimes I think being set up to be wrong so they could correct you. Absolutely. Um, you know good well, if we're out doing PT, hair's gonna fall. I'm the only one.

SPEAKER_02 47:47

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 47:48

You know, if people's hair would fall down. And I mean, you had to fix it right then, right there. You had to figure it out. Um, and that's how we learn. It is. That's unfortunately. Um, and you know, everybody is pushing until everyone whose hair fell gets their hair together.

SPEAKER_02 48:08

Mm-hmm. Yep, that's right. And, you know, I tell everyone about, you know, my experience in the military when it came, because nobody wants to know about your career that don't know anything about the military. So what was basic training like? You know, that's like the main question, right? Yeah. And I said, it's it probably wouldn't be that bad if they would tell us what to do ahead of time. I was like, but they don't. I was like, so you mess up as you go and then you get in trouble. And then you get in trouble. Yeah. I was like, if they would just tell us the rules and the guidelines from day one, I think it would be relatively easy. You brought that up. I'm like, yes, you usually mess up. Yeah, and and even when I was in, when you said you weren't the only one, you know, with your hair falling down, that makes me question how were the white girls navigating? Because, you know, their hair, it's very easy for their hair to slip out of their pockets.

SPEAKER_00 49:01

Right, right. And so, and you're right. And so I I think about that, and we talk about the damage um to these tight styles and things that we had to wear. And um, you know, those women that had a more Eurocentric or straighter hair, they suffer damage to their hair as well. Absolutely. Um, you know, from having to, you know, draw it all tight and those that that's universal when it comes to that. Uh so um I think that we all, just as women in general, you know, you gotta figure the first regulations for a military standard, women weren't even allowed in the military, let alone black women. So the standards were written to the white male prototype. That's just what it was.

SPEAKER_02 49:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:44

Um, and so as the military evolved into allowing women, into allowing black women, the regulations didn't necessarily address our needs as women, uh, as black women, as women with curves, uh, you know, those uniforms, man.

SPEAKER_02 50:03

Yeah, you know, uh trying to get them straight uniforms over your hips.

SPEAKER_00 50:07

Like, and how?

SPEAKER_02 50:09

Yep, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 50:10

Yeah. And how you I remember being, excuse me, so uncomfortable in those, you know, the BDUs and things um because you can't move correctly. You it's not giving in the right places. There's no give.

SPEAKER_02 50:23

No give at all. That's right. Absolutely no give, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:28

So a lot, a lot has to do with that. So I I won't say we have a corner on the market when it comes to that, but I do know that getting the things we needed, I think, for for our particular hair, particularly in those deployed places, that was where the issues lie too, because we just couldn't get the types of products that we needed.

SPEAKER_02 50:50

That's right. To take care of our hair. Okay, yeah, for sure. Were the expectations explained clearly, or did you mostly learn by watching other women? But I guess we've already kind of covered that.

SPEAKER_00 51:03

But if that brings up a story you can share with us or tell us, I think definitely just, you know, keeping in mind in my era, there weren't a lot of women um to especially during the basic training, because there weren't a lot of women drill sergeants.

SPEAKER_02 51:19

Right.

SPEAKER_00 51:20

So those first weeks when you're in basic training and you're in your what we call advanced individual training, y'all call or the Air Force calls tech school. Tech school. Uh-huh. There just weren't a lot of women to watch. So you're definitely just getting the knife hand, so you know, of what what what what what is happening. And you know, then you got the men, and I don't know what you're gonna do, soldier, but you dang it. Getting in there, you women, get in there and figure it out, you know. Uh, because I I I had no women drill sergeants.

SPEAKER_02 51:48

Really? I didn't either. I didn't know. No women drill sergeants.

SPEAKER_00 51:52

Um so just definitely looking around and going, well, who am I gonna learn from? So you're learning from each other, and like you said, helping each other and trying to, you know, those that would, you know, help each other and figure it out and look out for each other. That's all we could do.

SPEAKER_02 52:05

That's all you can do, especially when it's male-centered. I know we had uh four ticks. Uh I mean, d what's uh TIs. Technical the uh instructors. Instructor, okay. When you join both, it's like Lord, what which one was keeping hard to other yeah? Yeah, so we had four TIs. We had two Hispanics, one white, one black. And we they did borrow women from other squadrons to help us with certain things. Okay. I do remember that in the um basic training. They didn't do that. Yeah, because I joined in 2004, so I could see that. Mm-hmm. Yeah, they would. They did. Um, when it was uh when we showered, anything related to, you know, hygiene. They had the women come back. They had the women, they borrowed those women that come over there. At least they did that. They did, right? Because we didn't have that. Yeah, y'all was it's more way more survival for you. Definitely that.

SPEAKER_00 53:03

It was definitely, and I think that's where the whole thing of, you know, when you're in that basic training mode, you know, because you're always gonna have all types. So you got the kid that doesn't shower, they don't have good hygiene habits. Right. And we we we have to get them straight, you know. That's true. So you have your soap party. Are you gonna get in trouble? You know, you have your soap bar, you know, your your bar soap party and all those things, and and we were just dependent upon fixing it for each other. Um, I think too though, in being and having served in both and being deployed, what I know some of those tactics are about is that in the army, when we're forward deployed, we have to depend on each other.

SPEAKER_01 53:38

Right.

SPEAKER_00 53:39

Um, you're gonna be in situations where you have got to work together, you've got to depend on each other. And some of those lessons I think were about that as well.

SPEAKER_01 53:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:48

You know, you're getting you get together amongst yourselves and you figure out how to overcome this obstacle.

SPEAKER_02 53:56

That's right. Yeah, and that that's what builds that resilience too, for sure. I mean, you you learn resilience throughout the entire process. Yeah, for sure. But it's an added layer that you're not expecting, you know. Did you ever feel the regulations assumed everyone's hair behaved the same way?

SPEAKER_00 54:16

Oh, absolutely. I mean, we can see that. Um I don't know that while serving I correlated that between the regulation. I just knew that my hair, I struggle to make my hair meet the standard. Right. Um definitely early on that, you know, you're not thinking about any of that. You're just thinking about surviving. You're thinking about how do I make my hair fit into this cap, fit into this whatever it is that they're giving me. Um, but you know, definitely growing and maturing and growing older, I'm like, oh, this is the problem. You know? Um, it's not written for people who have bulk to their hair, um, who have hair that can't tolerate wool. I remember when the berets came out. Oh my god. We were had we were sewing satin material into the beret because it's It will rub your hair. Rub your hair out, you know? Um rub it out. Uh so you know, looking back, yeah, I know that now um that definitely, you know, like I said, it started out being written for white men. Right. And the military evolved, but the regulations didn't so much evolve.

SPEAKER_02 55:27

That's right. They did not. And when I j so were at this time, were you still getting relaxers? Um, I got my last relaxer in 2012. 2012, okay.

SPEAKER_00 55:39

Yes Alrighty. Um so I definitely went through my career with a relaxer. With relaxers. Um, but by 2012, I was creeping up on, you know, 40. And uh things change and your body starts to really reject that chemical. Um, you start changing, your body chemistry starts changing. And I just got to the point where I was like, I sat in my kitchen one day and I did again, just oh wow. And I had a little pixie fro.

SPEAKER_02 56:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:09

Um, and so that was just a year uh before I uh officially retired.

SPEAKER_02 56:15

Oh, so you did have your natural hair. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:19

And then I ended up with the big fro that wouldn't fit under the hat. Oh, yeah. But at that point I was like, what are you gonna do? Kick me out? Right. Because this listen, I've done my 23. Right. I've done otherwise. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:32

It becomes less of a concern, less of an issue because your mind frame, and then you know the military at this point. And then uh, and also just probably recognizing that it's not that serious. You know, I'm still able to get my job done. Yeah, I'm still taking care of what needs to be taken care of. It's hair.

SPEAKER_01 56:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:54

Yeah. And then you mentioned about the beret. Uh, y'all actually so satin material. Oh wow. Yeah. We didn't even think to do something like that. See?

SPEAKER_00 57:05

We didn't even feel expediting expediency right there. Right.

SPEAKER_02 57:09

We didn't even we just complained about it, you know, and then you would have to wet the beret to shape it to your hair. And then depending on how big your bun was, you know. No, you had to have at least three different sizes of caps and braids.

SPEAKER_00 57:21

I'm telling you. To even begin to change your hairstyle.

SPEAKER_02 57:24

You could because if you didn't, then it didn't fit. You know, and you had to mold it all over again, you know. Describe

Wet Gel Buns And Helmet Problems

SPEAKER_02 57:35

your morning hair routine before formation. What would that look like?

SPEAKER_00 57:42

Wet gel bun. That's right. You know, um, just trying to get through the day. And you hope and pray that you're um that you don't mess it up in PT, so you have to do it over. Because we went to PT at six o'clock in the morning in most cases.

SPEAKER_03 57:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:59

And then you had to go back either to the barracks or your house or whatever, change up. So the goal was to get it done for PT formation and that you didn't get it messed up, so you didn't have to turn around and try to do it again between being released from PT and being ready to be back in nine o'clock formation. Um, for for work.

SPEAKER_03 58:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:16

And then that was it. And you don't have time to negotiate with hair that ain't functioning. No. Um, but if it was raining, humid or whatever, because you know, if it ain't raining, we ain't training, so we're not gonna stop PT because it's raining. That's right. Um, so if that's happening, then you oh God, you just Yeah, you know, you did what you had to do. Did what you had to do. Wet gel, type button. And you know, the gels and things, full of alcohol, so that's not helping your hair either. Uh but that's what it was.

SPEAKER_02 58:43

Were you considering your hair health at all back then?

SPEAKER_00 58:47

It was something that you learn to live with unhealthy hair, broken hair. Um it was just something I learned to live with anyway. Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_02 58:58

You just accept it because the mission is bigger. The mission is quote unquote. So you just don't think about it. So that was that your survival hairstyle? Oh, definitely. Yeah, oh definitely. I think it's most black women's survival hairstyle, or women in general.

SPEAKER_00 59:13

You know, I know I was so happy when the um they had these little donuts that came out, these little spongy donuts. Yeah. And it made it so much easier because you just put that on there, spread the hair out, put the other crunchy around there, yeah. And then boom, and then you didn't have to have so many hair pins um to keep it up. Uh, that was a godsender.

SPEAKER_02 59:32

Yeah, it is, because depending on the placement of that pen up against your head, all day.

SPEAKER_00 59:37

It was on the key. And then if you were if we're doing like, you know, field exercises and stuff and you got the Kevlar on and that's present.

SPEAKER_02 59:43

Oh, wow. And that that too, just thinking about the Kevlar and then your bun trying to place that over the. Right the spot. Right spot in the right spot so that the bun is not also touching the collar, it was just ridiculous. Yep, it had to be in the right spot or your Kevlar wouldn't go on right. Right. Yep. And I remember my hair actually was present uh present, preventing me from being able to uh pass my um when I was going to the gun range. It was preventing that because my Kevlar kept hitting my M16. Uh huh. Because my bun kept pushing my Kevlar for forward, and you know, the power of that M16, you know, you have to put it right there in between your shoulder blades. You know, but it kept hitting my Kevlar because my Kevlar kept falling because my bun was pushing it over, and I kept messing up.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:28

And you're out there and you're trying to get yourself together, and yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:32

And thank God the drill sergeant at that well, I I guess you could call him a drill sergeant, because at this time I'm in the army. And um, he just allowed me to let my hair down just so I could pass it and move on. Oh, yeah, he was ready to go home. Yeah, exactly. Because you know, other than that, they'd be like. How difficult was it finding someone who knew how to take care of your hair? Or was it any difficulty at all? Or were you just wearing your buns and keeping it moving?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:01

You know, you really get to the point where you're just wearing your buns and keeping it moving, you know. Um you're throwing in the, you know, grocery store creamy crack in a box. And and you're and you're doing that. And then especially early in my career, I didn't have money. I was private, you know. I didn't have money to get my hair done. I was in DC. You can afford that. That's true. So uh you just be you just it's not something, you know, special occasions, things happening or whatever, and you get some hair, but I didn't I didn't have a a beauty routine where I had a stylist and I could ab indulge in in that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:37

What about when you got deployed?

Deployed Hair Care And Harsh Water

SPEAKER_02 1:01:39

Like what would you do for hair care when you were deployed? Because we all know if you get deployed, I mean hair care services are just not even not even there at all.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:52

Uh that has definitely been a thing. Um, definitely was a thing earlier, like Gulf War I, Bosnia, um, that was like in the late 90s. That was definitely a thing. Um by the time we did Afghanistan, they would have folks there, not necessarily skilled with ethnic hair, but it would be put people there. You could at least get a trim and and some things like that. Uh they got better as time went on with bringing in products to the PX and things where we could keep our hair up. But I would have to have like my aunt used to ship me stuff a lot.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:26

Um Yes, those those care packages.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:28

The care packages money. And just getting conditioner, but you know, the hair, the water on those forward bases, you know, it's it's crazy. So it's got a lot of chemicals in it. So even you know, washing your hair, you're washing your hair with chemicals really. And I remember when I was in Bosnia, the water was a rust color most of the time. Wow. Yeah. So we brushed our teeth with bottled water. We um and so what my eye, because I was like, I told her, I said, the water here is orange. And she's like, Well, wash your hair, but then when you rinse it, rinse it with the bottled water. So now we're like, you got bottled water, you gotta drink, you gotta brush your teeth. Now I gotta try to rinse my hair with the bottled water to just try to get that dirty water out after I've used it to wash my hair with. I mean, you you come home needing some real help for your hair when you're do after a deployment. You really do.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:23

You sure do. It needs some, you could probably almost cut it off and start over. Start over. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:28

Um, are you familiar with that movie The Six Triple Eight with Karen Washington? Yes. Yes. Oh gosh. Yes, I mean, an amazing movie. But did you do you recall the the scene where they built the the beauty salon? Salon. Yes. Yes. I'm like, that's like, yes, yo, ladies. That's right. That's how important and real it is for caring for our hair.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:49

But you know, even during that era when the ladies were allowed in the military, women were still expected to keep femininity. That's right. And so that was a thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:00

Because they had skirts for our uniforms. That's right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:03

And they were expected to keep femininity. So I was just like, yeah, you know, them sisters found a way to build that salon, didn't they? They did.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:10

And it was nice. And they were so confused when they walked in there. They was like, Y'all got time to build a salon, but you ain't got time to like, first of all, y'all didn't even what y'all the operation ain't operational that y'all created for these women. You know, and they made a way out of nowhere.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:26

Absolutely. I think my favorite line from that though is you know, when um the commander first comes in and she's doing the learning. You you learn on the fly with the uniform and she's gonna, and she's telling them, you don't have the luxury. You have to be twice as good, twice as smart, twice as put together. You don't have the luxury.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:47

You don't. That's right. And that was real.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:50

And it was real.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:50

It sure was. So many of our experiences for sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:57

That was a good one.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:58

Can you share a specific moment when your hair became the focus instead of your performance, or has that ever happened to you?

The Afro And Workplace Double Standards

SPEAKER_00 1:05:05

Um it it happened uh after I actually more so after I got out. Um, and I say that because I really just spent most of my career conforming. The the very end when I stopped getting perms and I grew out the air fro, um, I definitely, you know, just kind of went, yeah, if it's sticking out from my PC, okay, whatever, I don't care. But I carried that into my second career. But when I first got out, I started, I wore wigs. I wore straight wigs to work. Again, corporate America. And I'm still kind of inundated and programmed in this straight hair prof what does professional look like. Right. So I wore straight wigs. And then that just got to be too much. And I showed up one day with now my by now I got this huge afro, you know. And um I noticed that people started treating me differently.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:59

Um Yeah, like you're a problem. I wasn't as smart anymore.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:03

All of a sudden. Um yeah. So even in life, you know, like post-military, I experienced that as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:13

Depending on the organization, you most certainly will. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And it's like I I didn't go anywhere. It's just her.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:20

It's the same, me. And this afro was under that wig the whole time. The whole time. It sure was. But I'm doing this for you wearing this wig. Yeah. But now I need to be me.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:32

That's right. Because at what point do you stop betraying yourself to make people comfortable when you're not doing anything but existing naturally? Yes. Not doing anything to you. If they never invented wigs, this is how you would see me every single day. And I will still get my job done. Exactly. It's not keeping me from that.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:49

In fact, it might be better because now the control these uh hot flashes. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:55

Because wigs are hot. On top of you have a lot of hair braided underneath. Then you add the wig. Well, you might have a wig cap and then you add the wig. It's just too much. It's too much. It's too much. Oh man. Let's see. We are cutting it with time. So we're having so much fun. Yeah, it goes by quick. It goes by so quick. And um, especially once you warm up and the conversation gets to going and you get the flowing, and it's just all good, you know? So, but we do have to wrap it up, unfortunately. So we're gonna skip all the way down to rapid

Rapid Fire And Locks Acceptance

SPEAKER_02 1:07:34

fire. Uh-oh. Uh well, we have favorite hairstyle while serving. What would have been your favorite hairstyle while serving if you could have, besides the bun?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:44

Um, I I mean, I did definitely have periods where I would keep my hair cut in the short bob where I could wear it um loose.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:53

And, you know, of course I had perm, so it would be flat and I could wear a nice bob as long as it, you know, fell above my collar. Then I think they got to the point where they changed it to not below the bottom edge of the collar so you could get a little about a whole another inch on that um their uh corn rolls when deployed when they when they finally allowed us to wear corn rolls, because that was against regs at one point when I first came in. Yep, sure was. And they changed the regs where we could wear corn rolls and individual braids. Uh corn rolls was my thing. The individual braids was never my thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:24

Yeah. But that's a lot, especially like and then running and the braids, the heaviness and the weight of the braids, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:31

But I I loved it when I would cut my hair to be able to wear the bob and wear it loose. I liked that.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:38

Yeah, I did too. Whenever I cut my bob, I just felt um that ponytail made me feel like a boy sometimes. So whenever I cut my hair into a bob and I had to because my hair broke off, I was like, oh, I can put on my PC and then it's there, and I look cute. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Uh one word that describes your military career. Eclectic. Mmm, why?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:01

Um, well, I served in three branches of the Army. So I did active, I did guard and reserve, then I went back active. I changed careers in the Army from military intelligence to combat medic. And then I changed branches to the Air Force. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:19

Eclectic is the best way to describe it. Okay. Very unorthodox. It's not what you always hear, you know. Yeah. And one word that describes your relationship with your hair today. Acceptance. Hey, man.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:34

Just acceptance. I mean, like, I just started these locks about three years ago.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:38

And they are beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:39

Oh, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:40

Yes. What made you decide I want locks?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:43

Um dealing with uh, you know, hair, the thickness and everything, and not perming my hair and um perimenopause and trying to figure out what to do with this. Because I I usually have it up actually off my neck. Um and my kids, my kids are lock kids, all three of them. They love locks, and they was like, mommy, she's locked your hair like hair. And I finally did it. Um and my daughter was just sharing that, you know, that's part of your locks, hold your story. And and I, and when she shared that with me, um it really resonated uh there. Uh so I can go, I can go back into my locks and I can, you know, kind of tell some of the stories. I've got some purple. I'm a big Mardi Gras girl, you know that, right? Yeah. So I've got some purple in one of these locks that um wouldn't come out. And but it's a part of the story, right?

unknown 1:10:34

That's so true.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:36

I love her analogy. Yeah, I like that a lot. Okay. And the last question: if a young black woman is listening today and considering military service, what's one thing you want her to know about serving with confidence and embracing who she is?

Serving With Confidence And VA Stories

SPEAKER_00 1:10:52

As hard as it may be to see from the outside looking in, you can definitely um be yourself. And you can be yourself and still, I mean, the the military is all about conformity and uniformity. That's just what you're signing up for, right? But I learned how to flip the switch. I learned how to be a soldier when I needed to be a soldier. And then I learned how to come home and take the combat boots off, take the BDUs off, and become me, become mom, become sister, become wife, become whatever it was in my authentic self. Um, I I definitely had issues, like I said, when I got out, I had to fix some things about me. I couldn't be sergeant all day, every day. That's not the who the real me was. But I had to be that to do my job.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:37

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:38

Um, but learning who your authentic self is and then learning how to put her on as soon as you don't have to be the airman, the soldier, the whatever it is that you need to be to do that job, learning how to put on that authentic cloak. That's right. And you can do it.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:56

Absolutely. You can definitely do it.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:58

And it's okay, you're not fake for doing that.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:01

No, it's a it's it's an it is a part of like a journey that you decided to navigate, you know. So, you know, we don't always show up as our authentic selves, you know, in environments, you know, you shouldn't. I I wouldn't say you should. I know how I am at home. I wouldn't want to share that with the whole world because everyone's perception can be so different. Different and they may take it the wrong way, right? Judgy and take it the wrong way. And it's like, no, this is where I'm from, this is how I grew up. Yeah. If I was talking to a southern native, they would get it, you know. Yeah, I think that's what we get. Yep. Exactly. But if I take my southern ways and then I'm talking to someone that's not from the South, they'd be like, I don't know. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:48

I I don't get it. It's it's not happening for me. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:52

So yeah, but you you do. You you have these different, you know, job positions and titles, and you know, you just show up and do what you need to do as long as you're not hurting any nobody. You get your job done and you go home.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:05

And you go home. And you do, you do you. Um, but I I think that's a part of maturity as well. So you're not gonna you're not gonna start off knowing all of that, especially you start off young, 18, 19. You know, you don't know who you are or what you're about in your twenties anyway. That's right. Um, so but as you learn your authentic self, you learn how to weave her into those different titles, and you learn when you can pull her out, and you embrace and enjoy her when you pull her out, and then when you need to be, you know, sergeant or whatever, you know how to pull that out too.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:36

That's the perfect way to explain that. The weaving. Absolutely. Definitely. Well, I don't know if you want our viewers and our audiences to continue following you. If you want to, if you have social media outside, because I know we connected on Facebook. Yeah. So if you want them to continue following you and seeing what you've been up to, you can shout out your socials. But if not, we do not have to do that either. So I don't want you to feel like that was invasive. This is my story, but I have a boundary.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:09

I'm not big on social media. I I'm definitely I've been on Facebook since it came out. And so I don't move around. Now they tell me I have an Instagram and uh something else that I have, and I get stories from my kids from TikTok that I got an account, don't even know how I got the account.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:24

You're not really on.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:25

I'm not really on those things.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:26

What about the uh connect uh that you shared with me? Yeah, maybe you know, let them know about it. Love to shout that out.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:34

So about 12 or 13 years ago, um, the VA came out with a program called Make the Connection. And what it was about was meeting um service members, veterans, where they were when it came to just sharing our stories. Uh and so getting veterans to come into the VA and go to the traditional therapy and group therapy, you know, you know, it wasn't working. So we sat in environments like this and we were interviewed and shared our stories about different things, and they were placed on a website called Make the Connection at VA.gov. And um you can actually search for whoever, if you are a woman that was a particular job or in a particular branch, and then you can listen to people's stories that are similar to yours. It's like group therapy. You know, you can relate to them. Um, if it's about PTSD, if it's about military sexual trauma, if it's about whatever you want to listen to someone else's story about, you can. So I am one of the first veterans that was interviewed back in 2011 for um Make the Connection. Um, I shared a lot about my time in Bosnia, about how deployments impacted my family. Um, but it's a it's a great resource for those who are not into being in group spaces. Uh, but you really want to hear how other people may have overcome some things, um, how they're dealing with some things. You're not alone. And you know, one of the things I ended my interview with is that we went where we went. We did what we did together as a squad, as a team. And so getting past some of those things that may have traumatized us, we can still do that together.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:05

Right. Oh, make the connection. That's right. Virtually. Virtually. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Well, thank you again for carving time out of your day to spend with us. It's been great getting. I've enjoyed it. Thank you. And um it was an extreme pleasure. I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:24

I am looking forward to continuing, um, definitely being in connection, and anytime you feel like I can be of help, just holler out. Likewise.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:34

Thank you.

Closing Thoughts And Share Prompt

SPEAKER_02 1:16:37

Today's conversation reminds us that behind every regulation is a person, behind every hairstyle is a story, and behind every woman who has served is an experience that deserves to be heard. Thank you, Jacinda, for your honesty, your vulnerability, and your service. And thank you to everyone listening. If this conversation taught you something, challenged your perspective, or reminded you why representation matters. Share this episode with someone else. Until next time, remember that black hair is never just hair. It's history, it's identity, it's resilience. This has been Hair What I'm saying.