Book Club: Social Work Practice with Audre Lorde’s ‘Sister Outsider’

“I have not experienced anyone speak, write, [or] live like Audre Lorde. The things that she was saying 40 years ago are things that I feel like as a society and as a community, we are grappling with today.” – Stephanie Mendis

In this episode of MHPN Presents Book Club, social workers Stephanie Mendis and Alyssha Fooks discuss the profound impact that Audre Lorde’s book, ‘Sister Outsider’, featuring a collection of essays and speeches, has had on their personal and professional growth.

Focusing on Audre’s speech at the 1984 New York Institute for Humanities Conference ‘The Master’s Tools Will Never Dismantle the Master’s House’, both are struck by how her observations; despite being made nearly 40 years ago and in the Northern Hemisphere, remain relevant for marginalised communities within and outside of the Australian health care system.

Listen to be inspired by Stephanie and Alyssha’s passionate call to arms for a better understanding of the impact of intersectionality, racial justice, gender equality, cultural safety, the lived experience voice, and the importance of continued learning and development. 

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Transcript

Disclaimer: The following transcript has been autogenerated and may contain occasional errors or inaccuracies resulting from the automated transcription process.

Host (00:01):

Hi there. Welcome to Mental Health Professionals' Network podcast series. MHPN's aim is to promote and celebrate interdisciplinary collaborative mental health care.

Stephanie Mendis (00:18):

Welcome to this episode of MHPN Presents... Book Club. My name is Stephanie Mendis and I'm a social worker based in Melbourne, Australia, and I'm joined by Alyssha Fooks, who's also a social worker. Hi Alyssha.

Alyssha Fooks (00:29):

Hi Steph.

Stephanie Mendis (00:30):

I may call you Lyssh through the day, so just be patient. <laugh>.

Alyssha Fooks (00:32):

Perfect.

Stephanie Mendis (00:33):

Alyssha, I thought, you know, in keeping with our little chat today, we might start with a bit of an Acknowledgement to Country. Are you happy to do one?

Alyssha Fooks (00:39):

Yeah, thanks Steph. So I would like to acknowledge that we come to you from Naarm, from Melbourne and I'd like to acknowledge the Wurundjeri and Boon Wurrung people of the Kulin nations and really pay my respects to Elders past and present. And really think about the ways in which, at this point as we face a vote, that, you know, we think about how we might step into supporting Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander community in this process and also advocate for this Yes Vote. I was listening to Thomas Mayo yesterday and he wrote the handbook about The Voice. And really it was a reminder this week that actually all of us who have support and support the rights and the self-determination of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people to get behind this change.

Stephanie Mendis (01:27):

Thank you. I mean, we start with acknowledgement because I think it's so close to our values.

Alyssha Fooks (01:32):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>

Stephanie Mendis (01:33):

And so close to, you know, us wanting to be accountable. But I also think that like our little chat slash rant today also is about accountability and about how we learn to be human and share space and share this planet with each other in accountable ways. So for anyone listening, just think about our acknowledgement throughout our little chat today. 'cause I think it's so relevant to being people. Yeah. As I said, my name's Steph and I've been working as a social worker for embarrassingly to say 20 years now. I'm only 20 <laugh>. You know, in terms of an intro, I thought, you know, what sectors have I worked in? And I think the joys of being a social worker is that we're so broad, we can do a range of things.

(02:17):

So I feel like when I look back over my 20-something years, I started out in homelessness and then I've done a bit of mental health, I've worked in trauma, I've done refugee and asylum seeker stuff. I've worked in sexual assault and family violence and I've kind of moved now into a little bit of training and capacity development and talking to new social work students coming through. And also I feel stepped into a bit of leadership over the years, which has been like a journey in your 20 years. Lyssh, what sort of stuff have you done <laugh>?

Alyssha Fooks (02:48):

It's been so lovely, Steph, to think about, you know, our relationship started in,

Stephanie Mendis (02:52):

I know

Alyssha Fooks (02:53):

Third year of social work training. You know, we were babies.

Stephanie Mendis (02:56):

Babies <laugh>.

Alyssha Fooks (02:57):

And in thinking about doing this and this reflection on one book has had me really thinking about all of the different books that have supported me as a social worker, as someone who's worked across a range of roles as well. Similarly to you, I suppose my early career was working with criminalised women and working in a post-release programme for women exiting prison. And I feel like that experience of working alongside women who were experiencing marginalisation, racism, you know, the way in which our society views women who were criminalised really shifted my career in many ways. So, then I moved into abortion work into public health, sexual assault, doing work around Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander nursing and midwifery.

(03:44):

It's been lovely. And as we embark on, you know, the reflections on this book, I think it's had me thinking about all of the different authors that have helped shape who I am as a social worker today. You know, in many ways I had so much discomfort with identifying as a social worker. I was thinking about my blurb. I was like, oh really? <laugh>, okay. I am a social worker. And you know, I'm also a narrative therapist. I've worked in a range of community and public health organisations

Stephanie Mendis (04:10):

And I think it's a really good thing to acknowledge as well because I think I sometimes struggle with social workers too. I feel like you hear all those hideous jokes when you're going through social work school about, you know, and it's true. So social workers have also been responsible for some really hideous things in our history and continuing on like it's still in present days. So I feel like that's a great little segue into introducing our book because, for me, I think of people like Vikki Reynolds who's, I think she's Canadian.

Alyssha Fooks (04:36):

Yeah.

Stephanie Mendis (04:36):

I'm looking at you to nod. Yes, Canadian social worker. And she talks about having a circle of solidarity around you. So when you're practising, you know, you could be with a client and you just imagine people in the room and go, what would they say if they saw you right now?

(04:48):

And I think you are one of those people in my little solidarity circle. You know, Alyssha would yell at me if she saw me right now. And one of the authors, or one of the people that have shaped my practice is Audre Lorde. And that's who we'll be discussing today. So the book that we've chosen is a book called Sister Outsider by Audre Lorde. And I guess it's a collection of Audre Lorde's writing short stories, speeches, just reflections that she's had. The thing that we've chosen to talk about today was a speech given by Audre Lorde at the New York Institute of Humanities Conference in 1984. And it's called "The Master's Tools Will Never Dismantle the Master's House" for people who want to read it and think, oh my goodness, I don't have time to read anything new. It's four pages <laugh> and it's four pages that was written and like, social workers can't do maths. So let me do the maths for you. It was 39 years ago.

(05:36):

And like I said, the reason I've chosen this is that I feel like in my life, so in my 40-something years on the planet and my 20-something years as a social worker, I have not experienced anyone speak, write, live like Audre Lorde. The things that she was saying 40 years ago are things that I feel like as a society and as a community, we are grappling with today. And I'm not sure why, but no one seems to know about Audre Lorde. She described herself as a black lesbian feminist. I'm wondering whether that's some of the reason why no one knows about her today because I feel like people who describe themselves in those ways end up on the margins. But yeah, that's, I guess the reason I wanted to pick the book today. So, I thought like in keeping with Audre Lorde describing herself as a black lesbian feminist, I thought we'd reintroduce ourselves.

(06:31):

Well, maybe I'll reintroduce myself in a way that fits for me is to say that I identify as a cis-gendered straight brown woman. And I feel like those are important things to say. And every now and then I do watch Sky News just to scare myself. They talk about woke politics, and I wanna be clear in saying that I don't introduce myself in this way to be woke or whatever that means. My social worker values say that I introduce myself this way because I wanna say something about the systems of oppression that I feel are most relevant in my life or have played out in my life experience. And I say that as well because I feel like in this day and age on our social worker referral forms, there's all these boxes to tick. And I'm never sure why people are ticking them and what workers hear or experience when they see these ticked boxes. But an encouragement for us as social workers to say, when people do identify in these ways, think about what people are trying to say about their lived experience. I'm not sure if that resonates for you or what your thoughts are about that.

Alyssha Fooks (07:31):

I was really thinking about that reintroduction. 'Cause we, when we spoke about it, and I suppose for me, you know, as a white woman who has really benefited from the tools of white supremacy, I think that that's a really important part to acknowledge. But there's more to, it's like, it's beyond that acknowledgement. It's like, where's the accountability? I think a part of who I am is that I am a queer woman who grew up regionally and that really shaped who I was. And I know that part of how you got introduced to Audre Lorde, which you know, I forgot about, was that in my kind of shaved head, wildly I am out and proud. I'm, you know, I think I was claiming I was a dyke. I was, you know, like I was all the things and you know, now I identify as queer.

(08:16):

But it was that I gave you a copy of Zami, which is an autobiography written by Audre Lorde, which for me was such a text that shaped so much in my early twenties. It helped me to, I don't know, it's like that collective experience that, you know, queer women, black queer women have been making and building community irrespective to the struggles or the kind of, you know, the violence that they experience. Maybe that's all my bio is really like. I think the bit that I most grapple with is, you know, as a cisgender white woman, how do I hold, where is my voice and how do I use it? And whose voice do I elevate? And, you know, what are the practices of accountability and solidarity? And I think that our friendship has been a big part of that. And I, you know, one of the quotes that when I went through this morning, I was thinking about, you know, there's this really beautiful quote that Audre has in this and it's "difference is in the raw and the powerful connection from which our personal power is forged".

(09:20):

And I thought this is it. It's through our friendship, you know, that I have my race politics, my ideas around racial justice and intersectionality were teased out. Were thought about, you know, over wines in many backyards in our twenties with a number of other people. You know, I had a lived experience of being alongside difference and learning in ways that was so meaningful and so significant. And that took me on a commitment to learning, which we'll talk about more and talk about educating myself that, you know, that that was a very important path for me was to not have black or brown women educating me. And yes, they have and they do, but I am committed to trying to do that learning myself. Anyway, I know I'm taking you off our script, but that's my role here.

Stephanie Mendis (10:13):

<laugh>. I threw the script out about five minutes ago, you know like you love a quote, I love a quote. Let me read you my quote that I found this morning. So I feel like I picture us as baby social workers and you literally had pink, a pink mohawk. And I was this if you looked at me like a semi-traditional kind of conservative brown Sri Lankan woman with hair down to my back. And you were probably wearing like, like a tiny skirt with fishnet stockings. And I'm like covered from head to toe. So like on paper and if you saw us, we were the most different people in the lecture theatre.

Alyssha Fooks (10:44):

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Mendis (10:45):

But we were also the most bonkers and the most outspoken, ranting from different ends of the lecture theatre. And like I remember looking up down the road going, who is that person? And then we became friends. But I do think still on paper, if you look at us, we are so different. Mm-hmm. And here's my favourite, one of my favourite quotes from Audre.

(11:01):

She says, as women, we are taught to view our differences with suspicion or ignore them all together. And she goes on to say true community is not just to tolerate difference, but to see it as a source of creativity. That we are deeply independent and in its only patriarchal structures which view this difference as threatening. And she says, instead of divide and conquer, it should be define and empower. And that to not look at differences, assume that people who do not fit the norm have nothing to say. And I feel like we've proved that wrong 'cause we have so much to say. And absolutely, I feel like the next part, if we were to return to that script that I threw out five minutes ago, was just have a little chat about why we are doing this together.

(11:44):

And I think you summarised it well, which is what Audre kind of spoke about. you know, she talked about an act of resistance was be relational. That the patriarchal and capitalist systems require us to be separate and to compete over our differences. And I think she talked about women using our bodies, our spirits, our minds to teach each other. And I think when we talked about this originally you were like, yeah, we were like those feminists from the seventies who'd turn up at dinner parties with their speculums and use our own bodies to educate each other. And I think we have, we've both experienced some wild depressions and weird things happen to us over our personal lives and our social work careers. And we've talked about it at dinner tables and helped each other, healed each other, challenged each other. So I think when their invite came to do this podcast, I feel like Audre came up and you came up

Alyssha Fooks (12:35):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>

Stephanie Mendis (12:36):

Like you helped me and Audre helps me keep my practice accountable.

Alyssha Fooks (12:39):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. One of the things that I was thinking again was, you know, there's just like the fact that this was written 40 years ago and not all of, but many of these challenges are still in women's spaces or feminist organising or feminist organisations. That the grappling with how to be, how to be intersectional in our practice is still seen as this peripheral add-on. You know, that she really calls to account this conference for asking her at the last minute and then also not structuring safety in many ways. Like, it just is so, it's so confronting to read actually.

Stephanie Mendis (13:15):

Mm-hmm.

Alyssha Fooks (13:15):

And it really just reminded me, yes, we have travelled far and there are lots of things that have changed, but also the way in which Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander women's voices are not included. The way in which trans women's voices are not included. You know, the way in which these are all seen as separate, marginal at risk kind of, it's like actually flip that. Let's talk about the structures, the systems, and the way in which society is putting people at risk.

Stephanie Mendis (13:46):

Yeah, it's my favourite rant about vulnerability. And you always hear in policy papers, you know, queer people are vulnerable and Aboriginal people are vulnerable and people of colour. And I always think we are not vulnerable. what makes us vulnerable is the structures that happen in our society that make us vulnerable. There's nothing about you or me that are inherently vulnerable, but we are vulnerable in this society because of the ways that people think, be and act. Yeah. And I love, you know, you, you alluded to how confronting it is to read and just, I'm, I just picture her standing at this lectern and it was a conference of mostly, well let's, she was honest, it was all white women.

Alyssha Fooks (14:25):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>,

Stephanie Mendis (14:26):

There were two black women who'd been invited to speak. And she names in this speech that the first black woman they called couldn't make it. So she was the ring in. Mm. And I always think what risk she took in standing up there and she said, I stand here as a black lesbian feminist having been invited to comment with the only panel at this conference where the input of black feminists and lesbians is represented. And she says, what does it personally, politically, when even the two black women who did present were literally found at the last hour. And I couldn't help but think about in my 20 years as a social worker. Every time people see me in a team, they think, oh great, you can have like the cross-cultural portfolio and you know, you can comment on this or you can be the expert on this. And I always think as a brown person, there's like a billion of me on the planet <laugh>, how can I speak for a billion people? So, do you reckon that happens for you in terms of the second you identify as queer somehow, somehow you get the queer portfolio?

Alyssha Fooks (15:25):

Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, I sort of have accepted that it's been a part of what my work commitments have been as well. You know, working in public health, working in mainstream health. It's like, you know, having friends have their partners visit them in hospital and for the nursing staff to say, oh, is that your mother? Oh god. You know, like, this isn't 20 years ago, this is two and a half, three years ago kind of thing. But I think that Personal is Political piece that feminism really like, it was a really powerful tool to collectivise women's experience. And I think Audre's reflections in this book are so important in terms of going, if you only have white women reflecting on The Personal is Political in and they're speaking and talking about it, it's only white women's concerns. And I think it's a real reminder to me again, you know, I'm again reminded, it's like, yeah, how do we elevate the voices of those that aren't in the room?

(16:24):

And I remember organising an International Women's Day many, many years ago, and a friend, an artist, Lian Low was there. And I don't know if you've ever seen Leanne speak, you meet her in person and she's a very quiet spoken, very considered very smart, amazing poet, get her on stage and she's like, you know, huge and delivers this, you know, very powerful. She introduced me to Lisa Bellear, who was an Aboriginal poet in Melbourne, who was in queer community. And anyway, so coming back to Leanne, it really just, I just remember sitting in this circle and watching whose voice was being heard. And I thought, this is, and just because I knew how much Leanne had to say, but like, no one stepped back to take any acknowledgement of power in the room. And yet we're a feminist organising collective. So I think that personal, as political has been obviously really important in terms of my career, right?

(17:21):

In terms of my identity and my experience. And I think that one of the things about social work that has taken on that idea is that we look at the social-political context to people's lives, right? Yeah. And, that is the foundation of our work with people and communities. And I think that that's been really important in terms of the ways in which issues like sexual violence and family violence have often been pathologised by other disciplines. Not, and not all practitioners, but I think that by having that context of the social-political context to sexual assault, it allows you to work with the person from a completely different framework. You know, it's like healing looks different when it's in the context of a broader social issue. And I suppose in Victoria, we've been really lucky in many ways to have had a Royal Commission into Family Violence that has resourced and supported a whole lot of change across a whole lot of infrastructure that is about contextualising family violence in a whole lot of other, you know, rather than pathologising or individualising one woman or children's experience.

Stephanie Mendis (18:31):

And I think, like for me as well, that's the thing around social work, which kind of suggests that people are sane, rational human beings who are just doing the best they can. And if you want people to change, change their context.

Alyssha Fooks (18:41):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>,

Stephanie Mendis (18:42):

You know, if we can't just expect people to change without a change in resources, without a change in thinking, without a change in systems. 'cause I hear what you're saying and I do agree that social work is about thinking about the context, but I think when I read Audre, I am challenged in thinking, have, am I going far enough? Because often I think, yes, sure, I'm thinking about context and I'm thinking about the ways in which structures impact on people, but I'm still moving within those structures. I'm still thinking within those systems. And I feel like there's a quote and I joke, it's the quote from her speech that I think, you know, even if you Google or drill or this is the first quote that comes up because it remains one of the most powerful things that she's said because it's lifelong learning. Like not in our lifetime kind of thing. Do you want me to read the quote?

Alyssha Fooks (19:31):

You go for it.

Stephanie Mendis (19:32):

Yeah. So "those of us who stand outside the circle of society's definition of acceptable women, those of us who have been forged in the crucibles of difference, those of us who are poor, who are lesbians, who are black, who are older, we know that survival is not an academic skill. It is learning how to stand alone, unpopular and sometimes reviled. And how to make common calls with those others identified as outside the structures in order to define and seek a world in which we can all flourish. It is learning how to take our differences and make them strengths for the Master's Tools will never dismantle the Master's House. They may allow us to temporarily beat him at his own game, but they will never enable us to bring about genuine change. And this fact is only threatening to those who still define the master's house as their only source of support". Which still takes my breath away. 'cause anytime I feel like, yeah, I'm sure I'm changing this structure, I'm, you know, I've put LGBT stuff on this referral form, I'm doing something like actually that's still the tool. It's still from a tool from the master's house that I'm somehow reshaping thinking it's gonna bring down the structure and it doesn't, it's almost like there's always this thing that sits slightly outside of my consciousness that Audre Lorde is asking me to find. Don't keep working the way you're working expecting change to happen. We need to reimagine everything.

Alyssha Fooks (21:10):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, whenever we've talked about this quote, it's really drawn to mind how I recall that Rachel Herzing, who is a friend, but also she's, you know, an incredible organiser in the states who has been involved in, you know, prison abolition campaigns in campaigns of documenting the ways in which communities are responding to violence and harm outside of state-based systems in terms of, you know, strategy work. She's done a whole range of things. But I remember she really spoke about reform in the prison system is just reform. And you know, this was really early on in my thinking about prison abolition, but I think there was something for me about that of actually, how do we get clear when we are just perpetrating a system? Yeah, right. And that we know that we are doing that. And that actually this is, this is what we are doing and kind of decolonizing practises.

(22:08):

Right. What does that look like? And I think in many ways, you know, one of the things I was thinking is that COVID really had this moment right. That enabled us, and I don't think it happened. It was like everything's been thrown up, right? Yeah. Like, it's like how do we do our work? Like I remember Sekneh Hammoud-Beckett, who is a narrative practitioner and a psychologist, she was always like, why are counselling appointments one hour in a room? Like, who decides that absolutely. What's the definition of, but it's like, okay, so what does it look like to do this work? And I think that unless you have the people whose experiences are most impacted by these systems, right? Informing it, then it just does perpetuate the system. You and I see that in my own practice too. Unless I have women of colour, Aboriginal women guiding me and I'm learning and I'm listening, I will revert to the dominant status quo. I've seen myself do it.

Stephanie Mendis (23:06):

Absolutely.

Alyssha Fooks (23:07):

And it's not, you know, it's not intentional, but that doesn't mean that it's like by nature of the way in which I am, you know, socialised, I live in this community, it's who I am. So you need these accountability processes. And I think that yeah, organisations are really grappling. You know, we've got intersectionality guidelines, we've got frameworks, but actually, how do you embed that into practice? You know, most organisations have the classic struggle around, oh, we couldn't employ X, Y, and Z. And I just think that that's the kind of end result of not actually embedding practises of intersectionality or even understanding that unless you include black, brown, queer Aboriginal women from the get-go, it's never gonna be a truly decolonized process. Yeah. I worked with Simangaliso Brenda Nyoni who was a counsellor advocate and is a therapist.

(24:07):

And we did a project in the sexual assault sector where we talked with women of colour around experiences of racism and also experiences of delivering counselling as a person of colour in mainstream organisations. And I think the Master's Tools quote, it's like those women had such knowledge and such skills that was really invisible to the sector. Like you said, it was on their shoulders, it was on their backs that they were doing this remarkable work. But the systems and the structures and the clinical practice guidelines didn't actually acknowledge what was going on in the room in terms of lived experience or in terms of connection because of cultural safety. You know, like, anyway, I think there's so much in that, and I obviously could keep babbling, <laugh>,

Stephanie Mendis (24:52):

<laugh>. I know I feel like the women that you've mentioned, I know some of them and they are such articulate, patient, kind, generous women. And I always think, why is that what's required? Because I'm not <laugh> and I feel like I've left courses that I've studied, I wanted to study to, you know, learn more and, you know, be a better worker. But I've had to leave study. I've left jobs because I think you're right. People tick their box and when I appear on their payroll or in their course they go, great, we are welcoming people of colour. But my experience of being in those courses or being in those jobs is that I have to continually justify my existence. It's like doing two pieces of work at the same time. So I do my job and then I feel like people like Ta-Nehisi Coates talks about this so, well, he's like, part of your brain, part of your being is always spent managing this other thing. Mm-hmm. Managing, you know, what's gonna come and when is it gonna come? And he always talks about, and-

Alyssha Fooks (25:52):

It will come

Stephanie Mendis (25:53):

-And it will come, it always comes. He talks about racism and gender inequality. He talks about these things like violence because they are, and if I was to turn up at your desk beaten with my teeth missing, and you'd go, wow, you've really experienced this. But that's how I turn up spiritually.

Alyssha Fooks (26:09):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.

Stephanie Mendis (26:09):

And I have to be braced for it in my job.

Alyssha Fooks (26:11):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.

Stephanie Mendis (26:12):

So how are we expected? You know, I think you're right. Reform, and you mentioned, you know, the Royal Commission in Melbourne, you're right. We are just reforming a broken system. I don't know, we don't have the answers. I, you know, listeners beware, <laugh>, we don't have the answers. but how, but I-

Alyssha Fooks (26:28):

Think like Audre, you know, in this chapter, like one of the quotes that really stood out was inviting people into conversation in ways that do not require them to educate, stepping into our responsibility to be accountable to race, gender, and other structures without expecting dear friends or others to educate us. Which is what you're talking about as well. It's like, how do we demand not to ask that people in positions of power, people who are benefiting from white supremacy? Like, let's be honest, let's name it for what it is. Like, I think that's one of the reflections that, you know, I wrote my master's paper five years ago in many ways, one of my biggest reflections was that I didn't use the language of white supremacy. You know, that I use the language of power and privilege, but actually let's name it for what it is.

(27:16):

And actually, what does that mean? And I, I think one of the things like you are saying, it's like last night I was having a conversation with a course coordinator, sorry. Yeah. A course I know that you did that you experienced a shit tonne of, we can edit that out if we need to. <laugh> of, you know, an amount Yeah. An amount of racism. You know, that there was a whole process that actually was really harmful. Right. And so that educating, it's like you are not able to step into a space that's safe enough for you to do your learning. So how do we ask others to also acknowledge that that experience happened? Right. Because I think that was one of the things that, that they just denied it. Like, you just need to validate. If someone says it's racism, it's racism, it's not your job to be like, oh, but they didn't mean it. Or Oh, that was just like this. And I see it all the time now.

Stephanie Mendis (28:05):

My favourite is we are doing our best. Yeah. Why are you badmouthing this course? Yeah,

Alyssha Fooks (28:10):

Yeah, yeah. Well, there's that too.

Stephanie Mendis (28:12):

I feel like Alyssha like some people might think we're saying two different things, and I think we are, but it's actually what Audre was talking about, which is we want people of all kinds of differences. And I'm not saying that there's a norm, I'm saying we're all different. To come together and talk about things. And at the same time, we don't want people to feel pressured to justify their existence. So I guess what I'm challenged by in this is how do we do that? Because looking at you across this little table thinking, we've done that for 20 years, there are times that I'm sure I've said things you are like, whoa, man, you are like totes, homophobic, and you've said things and I'm like, oh my God, you're such a white lady. Right? But we've always managed to find each other. And I think that's what Audre's saying is that don't fear getting it wrong. Step in and do it.

Alyssha Fooks (29:02):

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Mendis (29:02):

And when you get it wrong, be human. Whatever the hell that means, find each other. You know, I think that's that thing around a patriarchal system. Once you've got it wrong, then you retreat to your corners. And I always think, you know, I would think of people like Claudia Rankine who always says like, when you get it wrong, move closer to each other. I've lost you for a second, how do I find you in this storm? I always think of that roomy quote too. Like, beyond everything, there's a field and let's find each other there. And always I learned from Audre is, I'm gonna get it wrong, but how do I find this person? How do I put down my weapons, put down my defensiveness, and create this space where we can find each other?

Alyssha Fooks (29:45):

I think one of the ways that we find each other, and I was thinking about this is, you feed me. Yeah.

Stephanie Mendis (29:50):

Yeah. I feed you.

Alyssha Fooks (29:50):

That's true. I feel like you've been feeding me for the last 10 years. Let's be honest. Children haven't made my feeding skills so wonderful. But it's through books, it's through, it's through reading. Like it was so lovely to be reminded about my love of Audre Lorde. You know, I feel like Audre Lorde is really known in queer circles. And so when you say, oh, not many people know her. I'm like, what are you talking about?

Stephanie Mendis (30:11):

I feel like black people know her and queer people know her, but nobody else knows her yet.

Alyssha Fooks (30:16):

But then I was thinking, yeah, it's through. And you know, I carried in my books that have really helped me in my learning and my thinking around social work. One is the Aileen Moreton-Robinson book, talking up to the white woman, indigenous women and feminism. You know, that was a really, such an important text from, you know, it's 20 years old. All of these issues are still relevant. You know, that's the thing. It's like she was writing about this 40 years ago. What are the other kind of writers and thinkers that actually I think we need to go back to,

Stephanie Mendis (30:50):

You know, hey, we're such nerds. I've got James Baldwin in my bag-

Alyssha Fooks (30:52):

But, you know what? I haven't actually read any of his yet. And I was thinking,

Stephanie Mendis (30:55):

That's a fail, I reject you from this podcast.

Alyssha Fooks (30:57):

I know. And I definitely, I actually ordered it in the library yesterday.

Stephanie Mendis (31:02):

And I always think, you know, he's one of the best writers full stop all time. And I just think this is a man who was driven out of his country because of who he was, but he writes about it with such dignity and rage. If I could replicate that, that's my dream.

(31:20):

I feel like we're coming to the end of our conversation today, Alyssha. And like we were joking before, they'll knock on the door and tell us that we have to leave at some point. Like, I keep saying, there's so much to talk about with this stuff, and it's like lifelong learning. So if anything, we hope for anyone listening today that you leave with more questions than you have answers. I think that's another thing that Audre always challenged us to be more, to think more, to push beyond what you think, you know. And I thought we could end with a bit of a quote. So Audre talks a bit, you know, through all the book about, you know, the risk of getting things wrong, the risk of talking out and offending. Because I think before when you were saying how do we get voices, I think in this day and age, people are scared to speak. What if I get cancelled? What if I offend?

Alyssha Fooks (32:07):

I'm just gonna share a brief story. I remember when I was, I started working on a project which was around cultural safety. Would I do that now? Probably not. But I did do that, you know, back 15 years ago, and I was reaching out to all of these Aboriginal organisations and mapping a plan for a major public health organisation to improve cultural safety. I was working alongside an Aboriginal woman who was an incredible mentor and passionate and committed in this space. Her name was Jo Pappas, and there'd been a whole legacy piece to, you know, my arrival. But I remember ringing up one of the directors at the Institute of Koorie Education, and I remember maybe on my email or something, I had ATSI. Yeah. And she went to task, she was like, so cross with me. And she said, and you know what, Alyssha, I'm gonna explain to you and I want you to understand, I want you never to do it again.

(33:08):

And so she spent maybe 15 to 20 minutes on the phone with me. Right. And was like, this is why you cannot use that language. I remember sitting there in this like, deep shame, but I was like, you will listen, Alyssha. Yeah, and you'll listen with your whole being and your heart. Right. And we then went on to have quite an amazing partnership with the Institute of Koorie Education. The relationship built and was quite extraordinary over the years that I did that work, right? From that moment forward, there was this generosity and this commitment from her that really shifted. It's like, my job now is to take that gift that she has given me and take it to a hundred places. So literally everywhere I went and ATSI was on the table, I was like,

Stephanie Mendis (33:59):

Here's what I have to say, you know?

Alyssha Fooks (34:00):

Yeah. Not so much here what I have to say. It was like, do we think this is the most culturally appropriate? Who have we consulted? Where are Aboriginal voices on that? And a friend of mine who, you know, she was a nurse who wasn't someone who had a huge solidarity piece with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. And she went on to do this job around medical records. Right. And it was a really important piece. And so she advocated that it wouldn't be recorded as ATSI. That it, I share that not to be like, oh, I'm so wonderful. I did this great thing, but more like the gift that she gave me that was about educating me. And then I went off and I read all of these different pieces and I threaded it together to be like, I feel really clear about how and when and what I will talk about. Like, I'm not talking on behalf of Aboriginal people, but I'm gonna hold her message and I'm also gonna hold her generosity. So when people say homophobic things, I'm there. I'm like, you know what? I'm gonna have this conversation with you because I want this change piece because it matters to me. But, you know, I don't expect you to do it all the time. And in many ways, Audre's saying, don't expect people to do it. Anyway, sorry. I know I took us on another tangent, but-

Stephanie Mendis (35:10):

No, I don't think it's a tangent because I also just think, I feel like you spoke about two things. One is like, the capacity to take feedback as a gift and to then take on the accountability, do the work, and then, well, it's-

Alyssha Fooks (35:22):

Sitting in the discomfort. And maybe that's like the big thing.

Stephanie Mendis (35:26):

I think that's so key though, because I feel like, you know, even given our, all of our intersectional identities, I am gonna be the face of a perpetrator to somebody. I always think a lot of my brown community, you know, with this vote of the referendum coming up thinking, well, we weren't here, we are migrants, we didn't do anything. But for me, it's to shift that narrative. I'm not just a migrant, I'm an uninvited guest on stolen land. I am part of this. Be accountable.

Alyssha Fooks (35:54):

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Mendis (35:54):

Like, a similar story I have is I used to work with torture survivors, and I worked with a Tamil man, and I am a Sinhalese Sri Lankan. And he copped me, like, the referral process in these organisations is they just whack two people together. And so he walked into the room and I walked into the room, and I am the face of the perpetrator to him. And like you said, to sit in that, and maybe the gift I could give him was, he could say to me as the perpetrator, everything he couldn't say to the people that took away his family. So my thing is when you step into that space and you experience the risk of getting it wrong, of completely cocking it up, of being the perpetrator, take it. Take the gift, hold the space for someone and give them an opportunity to do with you what they can't do with someone else, with the system.

Alyssha Fooks (36:44):

Is your blog still live about that work?

Stephanie Mendis (36:47):

No, I took that down. Ah, shush. <laugh>

Alyssha Fooks (36:49):

<laugh>. Alright. Final thoughts. What are they?

Stephanie Mendis (36:52):

But it brought me back to this thing around anytime we get so caught up about the risk that we don't step in, she says, this is a diversion of our energies and an old and primary tool of the oppressor to keep the oppressed occupied with the master's concerns. She says we have to teach each other about the relative interconnected roles for our joint survival.

(37:16):

So, like we've said many times today, so much to talk about, there's no way we're gonna do it in this podcast. We have not fixed the world's problems. So, please, you know, any encouragement for anyone to keep reading, keep learning, keep talking. A final quote I have for you, Alyssha, is the way that she ends this speech I always think the original drop microphone walkout is Audre Lorde, right? So the way she ends this speech and walks off the stage, she says, I urge each one of us to reach down into that deep place of knowledge inside herself and touch the terror and loathing of any difference that lives there and see whose face it wears. Then the personal, as the political can begin to illuminate all of our choices. Whose face does it wear?

Alyssha Fooks (38:10):

I mean, it's sort of not a, it's not an answerable question, is it? No, like, you know, and I think that I think that's the point of this quote. People need to do their personal own that shame, own that fear, own that embarrassment, you know, like it's like, 'cause I could share with you, but actually in actual fact, I think it's about, I know what that face looks like. I know, you know, the othering that through, you know, systems and structures that allow me to do that. And it's like I fight every day to not have that informing my every decision. You know, I have practised around me that enable me to think outside of that fear place or the shame place. Like, and in preparation, you know, thinking about this podcast, it really had me thinking about all of the different, you know, Vandana Shiva, the environmental activist isn't even a close description of her work. But I remember, you know, coming to her through feminism and globalisation and the interconnectedness of those two things for the global south. And you know, Arundhati Roy, it's like actually elevating all of those powerful voices actually suppresses that fear and that shame. It's, you know, it's like I'm not doing this on my own. I'm, I'm people in the room like you said,

Stephanie Mendis (39:33):

Vikki Reynolds <laugh>

Alyssha Fooks (39:34):

You know, I'm drawing on a whole range of things to actually enable me for practices and processes of accountability. and our friendship is that <laugh>, and I'm so glad that we did this. Thank you for inviting me.

Stephanie Mendis (39:46):

Thank you for coming. And I feel like I completely went. You, you're right. You know, I mean, even thinking about whose face does it wear, I know that face and I think what I feel and hold when I see that face feel that face is that in whatever I do, she has to come to mm-hmm. This, you know, small crumbly, what if I get it wrong?

Alyssha Fooks (40:09):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>

Stephanie Mendis (40:09):

What if something bad happens again, <laugh> to attend to her, to bring kindness to that part and to kindness to that part in each other. That when you see someone's face, that face, be kind, find it in ourselves. Because I think that's, that's what Audre's saying is that we have to welcome all parts of ourselves to these discussions. It's only, you know, the structures that impact on us ask us to, you know, divide and conquer to only bring certain things at a time that's tolerable to the other.

(40:43):

Bring yourself, show up. And I think, yes, that's what our friendship has been, is to arrive and show up in your Ugg boots, <laugh> in whatever state you're at and attend to each other.

Alyssha Fooks (40:55):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.

Stephanie Mendis (40:55):

Yeah. So let me do our little summary. Great. we hope you've enjoyed our conversation today. Just to remind everyone, the book is called Sister Outsider by Audre Lorde if you wanna learn more about me or Alyssha, God help you, our bios can be found on the landing page of this website, but you'll also be able to find a link to the book. We've discussed an MHPN's feedback survey. MHPN values your feedback. Please follow the link and let us know whether you found this episode helpful, and provide comments or suggestions to help us shape the future of MHPN podcasts. To stay up to date with the future Book Club episodes and other MHPN podcasts. Don't forget to subscribe to MHPN presents. Thank you for your commitment to an engagement with interdisciplinary person-centred mental health care. So for now, it's bye from me.

Alyssha Fooks (41:44):

See you later. Thanks, Steph.

Stephanie Mendis (41:45):

Bye!

Host (41:47):

Visit mhpn.org.au to find out more about our online professional programme, including podcasts, webinars, as well as our face-to-face interdisciplinary mental health networks across Australia.