Devi Ward Erickson 2.0: Curiosity Not Critique: A New Lens for Intimacy

Sexpert Devi Ward Erickson returns to the Sex Reimagined Podcast. She is a trauma survivor who has healed from sexual and racial trauma through Tantric sexual and non-sexual practice. She founded the world’s first government-accredited school for Tantric sexual healing and the world’s first advanced degree in lineage-based Tantric methods for holistic sexual healing. By engaging in tantric rituals, meditation, and somatic awareness, she believes individuals can unlock profound states of pleasure and bliss that extend far beyond the physical realm.

IN THIS EPISODE, YOU’LL HEAR:

• How you can Heal from Personal and Societal Trauma
• Why you Need to Meditate Before you Masturbate
• What is a Kriya? How does it Help move you from Sexual healing to sexual pleasure
• Why letting go of attachment is crucial to enlightening orgasms.
• Why the best thing a parent can do to teach their children about healthy sexuality is to heal themselves.

EPISODE LINKS

• Listen to our 1st interview with Devi! SxR Episode 33: the egoless orgasm
• DeviWardTantra.com 
• AuthenticTantra.com  
• Devi's Podcast 
• Devi's 1:1 Coaching
• Devi's Free Gift 
• Waking the Tiger Book by Peter Levine 
• The Body Keeps the Score Book by Bessel Van Der Kolk 

Leah & Willow's King & Queen of Hearts Intimacy Toolkit is on sale. Use Coupon  Code KINGANDQUEEN10  for 10% off. https://www.sexreimagined.com/the-king-and-queen-of-hearts

Awaken Arousal Oil Lubricant  "I had a 3-minute orgasm and then a 5-minute orgasm." - Beth https://exploreforia.com/awaken-so?irclickid=wyXW6byI5xyNWouwIoQAUS1GUkAx4m1JsS6bSc0&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_source=Impact&utm_campaign=Sex%20Reimagined&utm_c

Transcript

Dr. Willow: 1:49

All right Devi Ward Erickson is up next. She's a trauma survivor who's overcome and healed from sexual and racial trauma through Tantric sexual and non-sexual practice. She is the founder of the World's First and only government accredited school for Tantra sexual healing And the founder of the world's first advanced degree in lineage based Tantric methods for holistic sexual healing. She has done tons of work, has moved this industry into a new sector, and she's a powerhouse.

Leah: 2:24

Yeah, yeah. You're going to really love the way that she talks about and describes sexual healing and awakening and how you can dissolve your pain and suffering through bliss. I mean, hello. Hello. So, you know what to do, you know, to tune in, you know to turn on baby, and you need to fall in love Devi Ward Erickson.

Announcer: 2:47

Welcome to the Sex Reimagined Podcast, where sex is shame free and pleasure forward. Let's get into the show.

Leah: 2:56

Hey Devi. So glad to have you.

Devi: 2:58

Yay. I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for inviting me.

Leah: 3:01

You bet.

Dr. Willow: 3:02

We always love sitting with Devi Ward Erickson, she is a wealth of information and she's going to have so much to say on our topic today around, what would our world be like, what would it look like, what would it feel like if we weren't grappling with shame, especially around sexuality if we didn't have so much sexual trauma growing up in this world. And if we could eradicate guilt, like what would that look like and what would it take? So, Devi, tell us a little bit about your journey. We know you've been on a, a pretty extensive journey to find your way from some of these darker places around sexuality to sexual sovereignty. So, what has been some of the crux things that have supported you along the way?

Devi: 3:46

Yeah. So, Tibetan five element Tantra was actually my awakening, my sexual spiritual awakening. Before that, for those who don't know me I was a monk for 10 years. Now we were not celibate monks. I did have a vow of celibacy that I observed for about a year. But then after that we were given free reign to explore. But we weren't given any education, there was no like conversation about, oh sex is a pathway to enlightenment. None of that, it was just kinda like, go have relationships to deal with your shadows and try to figure the sex stuff out yourself. So, so that was my experience of being a monk. And then before that I was a stripper in Detroit. But I grew up, I'm 48. I'm a Gen X, proud of it. And I grew up in the eighties and nineties and and, and, still today there's, there was very little actual sex education then. Things have gotten worse from what I understand since then. And so none of us are coming up in this world with any tools or skills or even healthy relationship or healthy understanding about our own bodies, how they work and how to relate to ourselves in other sexually, we just don't receive that education. And in fact, we receive a lot of programming and conditioning that tells us to ignore it, override it, shove it and feel shame about it. So for me, when I encountered Tibetan five element and Vajrayana Tantra it was not about sexual healing for me. It was about integrating my sexuality into my spiritual path, because I'd been a monk for 10 years. Like I was my jam. I wanted to be enlightened in this lifetime, you know, whatever that meant. So I was introduced to Tibetan Tantra as a vehicle for, for harnessing sexual energy and using it for realization. What actually occurred for me was something completely different than what I expected. What actually occurred was me confronting my deepest, most painful, most tragic wounds in relationship to sexuality. My basic humanity and who I was as a racialized person in this world. So Tantra actually forced me or drove me to confront my deepest wounding to to transform it literally from the inside out.

Leah: 6:19

That's amazing, I kind of, relate in some ways to your story. I thought I was learning Tantra for a specific reason. It was really about me and God and, and bridging the sexual world and the spiritual world together. And then I discovered, oh shit, I have a lot of healing that I've been hiding from that bubbled up to the surface. And what a precious gift to have that be a part of the awakening into what I really was desiring was this deep, deep, soulful, spiritual connection with the divine through sexuality. And to find all the blocks that I didn't know were there, that were in the way of that. And so, you know, what did you discover? What was like the hardest point for you to confront or to melt. I sometimes I think of healing as sort of like an artichoke, especially sexual healing in particular, like the first few leaves. They're nice, but they're not like super juicy. there's not a lot to eat there. And then you, they get more tender and more tender, and then suddenly you get to the choke and it's in the choke that you're kind of wrestling with whatever the pain is, like the thing that's the scariest thing to confront. And I think for a lot of people that ends up being shame. It's like finding that place that goes. I'm going to love myself, I am worthy. I don't believe this voice in my head anymore that's putting me down, that's blocking me from feeling totally free and blocking me from experiencing love in my body. And so, with that said, it's a long way of asking, can you describe the moment of having to kind of confront the pain and then what you felt when that was liberated? I.

Devi: 8:07

Yeah. Yeah. So, my first actual sexual healing experience was so, was so profound and transformational, and that really set the bar and set the standard for what? For how my journey was going to unfold. And so for me it was five hours of this, of this, you know, deep dive into experience, pleasure, beyond concept. And it was that pleasure as you described, kind of, looking at something, it bubbles up to the surface. It was the pleasure that revealed the depth of wounding that was present in my body that I was unaware of because here's the thing, I did not enter into this journey thinking that I needed sexual healing, like that was not in my lexicon. Like that was not, I thought I was fine. Like I had no, I didn't know if I had a g-spot I was as ignorant as mainstream sexuality can possibly be. And I thought that was normal. It was so normalized that I didn't understand that there was something that needed to be changed about it. So when I began, when my body had a taste of bliss, everything that was incongruent with that vibration or that experience of bliss, arose to be purified because the body was like, fuck this, I want bliss.

Leah: 9:33

Right. We gotta make more space for the bliss to keep occurring. Yes.

Devi: 9:38

I'm going to get, I'm going to get rid of everything that's in the way of this bliss. And that is what had to be confronted. And here's the thing, Leah, like it was not intellectual. Again, I didn't intellectually like walk into this experience like, oh, I'm going to work this, and this. It was treasure that my body unearthed, it was poison that my body revealed. And so like, I didn't have a choice. I'm literally like in this like orgasm, like, oh. And then like, I don't know. I mean, I can't ever remember all the, there wasn't one trauma like, like it was layers and layers and layers and layers and layers. And what was most surprising to answer your question is that it wasn't the sexual abuse trauma that was the most devastating. It was more the societal trauma. It was the messages that I received growing up that my blackness made me ugly and less worthy.

Dr. Willow: 10:32

Hmm.

Devi: 10:32

The messages that I received from my white community growing up that my blackness made me less desirable, unsexy, or too sexy. It was the social messages that I received about my body and my blackness in relationship to my sexuality that were the most devastating and harmful for me psychologically throughout my life. The sexual abuse trauma was easy. In comparison to the, you know, 40 plus years of being conditioned that I am less worthy and less human because of my blackness.

Leah: 11:06

I imagine too that there was like a generational cellular piece that was also woven into

Devi: 11:14

Hell yeah. Absolutely.

Leah: 11:16

before the pain of carrying the weight of that. Yeah.

Dr. Willow: 11:22

for Lineages, fast and future as well.

Leah: 11:25

Yeah.

Devi: 11:26

Exactly. And at the time I will say that I wasn't cognizant of the epigenetic impact. I'm sure that it was there, it's later, it's more now that I'm like, oh yeah, that's my ancestor. I hear you talking. Right? So I can work with that epigenetic influence more directly and consciously now. At the time I was just like overwhelmed.

Dr. Willow: 11:45

With your, having had all of that influence early on and for all those years previous to the actual sexual trauma, do you think that because I know this is true for me, that the actual sexual trauma came into formation and manifestation in your life because of those imprints that were laid down societally previously.

Devi: 12:05

Well, absolutely, those, those imprints and those beliefs about myself certainly influenced me making choices that were not in alignment with my wellbeing sexually, emotionally, spiritually, psychologically. My actual overt sexual abuse happened when I was three, so, so so that imprint was already there. Yeah, so, so that was already there in terms of, how I would then relate to men, that were close to me. How I interpreted what I got from my sexual abuse trauma was how I interpreted abuse as love. That was the imprint that was laid that I growing up, interpreted being treated poorly or badly or abused, or mishandled or misused I interpreted, I perceived that as a form of

Dr. Willow: 12:47

love. As love. Yeah.

Devi: 12:48

Yeah.

Dr. Willow: 12:50

And then, so after this five hour experience, your sort of initial Wow pleasure, totally eradicates all of these other imprints. But the sexual piece wasn't so overtly a big part of it. Was there ever, after that, a big piece where the sexual healing, the trauma, actual trauma from three years old?

Devi: 13:09

Yeah. And that came later. So the thing I love about this healing y'all with like embodied healing is the body knows when it's ready to let go of something. Like, we don't have to go digging. most of what I purified, I didn't even know I needed to heal from. I was like I was like, oh shit, I didn't even know that was there.

Leah: 13:26

Right.

Devi: 13:27

So, so the body unearths, and lets go of when it's ready to let go of. So the actual sexual abuse trauma. That was a beautiful practice. I, and I'm going to own that that was through my solo sexual healing. That was my solo Tantric masturbation for years.

Dr. Willow: 13:45

Mm-hmm.

Devi: 13:46

And the way it arose is that the physical somatic thing in my nervous system arose before the memory of what I was processing arose. So, so for example, I would be doing my Tantric masturbation and my self pleasure, and I would feel I would have images of fingers in my vagina. I would get all like of the somatic, experience of it, but I didn't know who was doing it. I didn't know, the age, I didn't, I didn't know the context for it, but my body remembered the sensation and began purging that sensation and the imprint of that sensation. It was probably a year and a half even, maybe two years later, again, during a solo sexual healing session that the memories that were tied to those physical sensations began to arise and when the actual memories, when I actually remembered the circumstances and I actually remembered the context and the events because it was numerous occasions over a period of time, what I felt was relief.

Dr. Willow: 14:47

Because you could finally put your finger on it. I

Devi: 14:51

finally understood what happened. I finally understood the story of my own body.

Leah: 14:56

Right. And there's a coming home in that it's almost like, like when there's a part of us that is confused when we feel certain things that don't feel good, right? It's like the body has sensations, like the stomach gets tight, or there's a sinking feeling of vulnerability, like whatever those things are, when we begin to uncover, you know, the those stories or those memories we get to collect a part of our wholeness. It's always been there. We just didn't quite have access to the fullness of what it all is and this journey in a human body. One of the things I think people are curious, like when they think about healing, right? So some people might already know like, oh shit, I got some shit. You know, like I know something's buried and I may not have the whole story, but I sense it and I'm kind of scared of going there, right? So we've got those group of people. And then we've got people that like you are like, well, I don't know whether there was anything there. I thought everything was, typical, normal. What is there to look at? And so like in that five hour experience and you were connecting to Bliss and your body was tapping into pleasure it was plugging into something you, you weren't plugged into yet when you started to feel the impact of this stuff but you came real, oh my gosh, I am purifying right now. This stuff is on the way out. What did it look like? Cause I think that's the part that people are curious about. Like what does the healing look like? And I think, and to preface this by saying everyone's going to have a different journey of this, but there are some common threads. I'm curious what those are for you and your students.

Devi: 16:30

Yeah. Beautiful. Thank you. And so, so I want to preface this by saying that, the five hour experience, that was like the, my first one. So that was like shocking. But then it was like five hours, three times a week, every week for the next six months. So, so it was the ongoing five hour journey of doing the same thing. But in this one experience, because this was the first, right, I had no frame of reference for this at all. I will, I say that in, in those moments, my mentor and my trainer at the time was excellent. So this was not me on my own going into these crevices by myself. I wouldn't have been able to do that or understand how to do it was working with a very well-trained professional in this context. And so what that looked like for me was like orgasm, ah, and then oh my God, and then tightness, and pain in the body and like, oh, and then I remember very clearly, and if I'm doing a good job of.

Leah: 17:23

Yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah. It looks good so far.

Dr. Willow: 17:26

The animated

Leah: 17:27

looks familiar.

Dr. Willow: 17:28

Yeah. Yeah.

Devi: 17:32

I remember at a certain point there was so much I didn't even know it, you know, it, I interpreted it as pain at the time, but I think it was more like shock. It was so intense and I remember I was like, my head was back and I was looking up at the ceiling. I was like hyperventilating. And my mentor at the time said, Look into my eyes and breathe. He was like, look here and breathe. And it was that like, now I understand from the somatic healing perspective that's using the senses anchoring, that's an anchoring exercise. But at the time, again, we didn't have the language for that. So he said, look into my eyes and breathe. And we did a very specific breath called the ocean breath, which is designed to activate the ventral vagal pathway and balance the autonomic nervous system. And so through looking into his eyes and breathing, he was able to coach me through this very intense block and it felt Leah and Willow, it felt like giving birth, honestly. It literally felt like,

Dr. Willow: 18:29

that. Yeah.

Devi: 18:32

it feels like giving birth to a new version of ourselves. Orgasmic birth. That's what it was. It was an orgasmic birth.

Leah: 18:40

Yeah. And I think that awakening process is like that, right? It's like we are giving, we are giving birth to the new version of ourselves. We're coming more and more into our essence.

Devi: 18:51

Our wholeness. Our wholeness. And I love what you said about like these, it's like these fragments, these pieces of ourself that we get to call back home and integrate into the whole, so we get to be the whole jewel.

Leah: 19:04

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Willow: 19:05

right. Now I'm sure some of your students coming in, as Leah was saying have this understanding like, I do need to do sexual healing. I did have this sexual trauma as a child. I am carrying a lot of shame and guilt in my body. I am coming to this to heal that. And so, going in with that intention and with that in mind what do you see transpire, because sometimes when you're going in with an idea or an intention, you can get so myopic about it that you can miss everything else. So I'm just curious what you've seen with some of your students in that realm.

Devi: 19:43

Yeah, I love that. That's a great question. So where we start with all of our tantra is we start with the energy body first. So in Tibetan Buddhist Tantra, the energy body is senior or superior to the physical body. So if we want to capitalize physical healing, we want to go to the energy body first. So to begin with all of our students, if you are ever a student at my institute, the first thing you're going to learn to do is meditate. You're going to learn to meditate before you masturbate. That is our motto, because we can't have great orgasms in sexual healing if we can't even be present with our own breath and our own bodies. So number were just

Dr. Willow: 20:18

talking about that the other day. Yes.

Devi: 20:20

Yeah exactly. So getting present with our breath, getting present with our body, and starting to actively work with the energy body. I think of it as kind of sending in the ground troops. We're going to clear out the energy channels before we start adding the somatic methods, before we start working with the actual soma. We work with clearing the energy first. And so there's actually several sessions of working with just the energy body and the meditations and laying the framework before we start moving into the more somatically based sexual healing methods.

Dr. Willow: 20:48

And you work with the nadis, is that right? When you work with the energy body, those are the meridians yeah, we work. ley lines that you...

Devi: 20:55

yeah, and it's a different system than Taoism. So we work with the Tibetan five elements as opposed to the Chinese five elements. And the elements are correspond to a major energy center and each of them chakra, chakra wheel. And then each of them has a certain number of nadis or spokes that radiate off that then split into two and split into two. So in our tradition, there's either 72 or 84,000 major nadis.

Dr. Willow: 21:18

Okay. Yeah. And y'all listening, are just pathways of energy. Like meridians are pathways of energy.

Devi: 21:26

Mm-hmm.

Leah: 21:27

I often think of them as like veins that instead of carrying blood, they carry energy and they can get blocked. Right.

Dr. Willow: 21:34

Yeah, you can think about rivers too on the earth are kind of like pathways of energy. And when there's a bend in a river, there might be some debris that gets stuck in that bend, like a tree branch, and then more branches and debris and plant matter, and then the water's not flowing through that Energetic pathway, meridian or nadi. And so what Devi's talking about is this energetic being, it's the same size as you, right? Same shape as you, same color, same everything. It's this energetic part of you that you work to clear those pathways before getting into the physical body. In Egyptian, do you know about Egyptian sexual alchemy at all? They

Devi: 22:18

a

Dr. Willow: 22:18

it.

Devi: 22:19

about kemetic yoga.

Dr. Willow: 22:20

Yeah, they call it the KA body, k a, and then the physical body is the khat body, K H A T, so it's just fun to put

Leah: 22:28

I love that metaphor of the rivers and the bend and the debris that gets stuck. I often think about kriyas when your body is moving that energetic toxicity or blocks, you don't have to really label it except to just know that what no longer serves you is on its way out. And it often looks like if you see a a hose that's got a kink in it and the water's trying to get through, but it kind of jumps up because it's gotta get rid of the blockages so that it unkinks and then the water can flow through that's kind of what happens with the body. Some there can be a lot of shaking is that which no longer serves and moves up and out of the body. And a lot of, Waking The Tiger, there The Body Keeps The Score. There's a lot of books on trauma that talk about how the body can start to shake as it's moving its way out and before I totally understood that, I was just like I can't control my leg right now. I hope I'm not about to have a seizure. The body is doing its magic, it's in its genius and it's moving what no longer serves you up and out of the body. And so just for those of you who may be new to that experience or that sensation, trust your body. This is a moment where you can leave your minds analytical concern at the door and allow your body to do its natural, beautiful process.

Dr. Willow: 23:47

Yeah. I'm so glad that you just mentioned the word kriya Leah. Kryia Leah. Because it is one of those things that starts happening to your body if you haven't learned about it or you don't, you've never heard that word before. It's K R I Y A as far as I know the spelling to be. It's like Leah is saying it's an opportunity to clear, but then it's after things and trauma and all that's been hold and held. It just turns into these pleasurable like spasms or like rocket ships through the body. Shaking and shimmering and it can get very effervescent and bright and sparkly and full of light as well. I would love to just pause and have a little kriya conversation. What's your experience and how do you do you teach about them, Devi? I'm sure you do.

Devi: 24:38

I mean, they arise spontaneously and very, very, like what I've noticed is that some bodies kriya quite easily and other bodies don't. My body isn't a kriya. I sometimes have, but like, they're not, my body doesn't manifest itself in kriyas very often. I have some students that are like having you know, we do breathing exercises or having full on full body orgasms on the floor. I'm jealous. That's not the way my body works. I'm more, I'm a little bit too dense I think in that regard.

Dr. Willow: 25:05

That's, that's good to, even note because it's like we all have these different bodies and we're all going to release and clear and heal in different ways. so.

Leah: 25:14

Yeah. I found with my body is, it did a lot of shaking and releasing that I didn't have, control over trying to manage that and it was really, Jerky. And then once a that first or second round of clearing, purifying took place. Then like Willow said, it started to shift into a smoother effervescent experience. So then it started to feel like a rolling tide streaming up my body or like a serpent was dancing through my spine. And then, the whole body just settled down and I don't have a lot of kriyas now. I think that sometimes it's a process or a stage where the body's doing its thing and then it settles in grounds. And you may not experience a lot of kriya's therefore after. I think also some people think that's what it's supposed to be, and so they can almost be performative. You know, try to create that and that's not quite it either. It's just like allowing your body just to be, to just do its thing and then not judge it. You don't need to judge it in the beginning, is something wrong? Or judge it in the middle when it's like, oh my God, this is all new. Or judge it if it shifts and goes away.

Devi: 26:22

Yeah.

Leah: 26:23

It's just a phenomenon that's in, that's helpful to understand exists.

Devi: 26:27

Yes. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

Leah: 26:30

So I'm wondering so the first step when people come to you is to help them understand their energy body, their subtle body, and then to start bringing in the somatic practices. What are some of those somatic practices?

Devi: 26:44

Yeah. Well, we work with, in our school, we work with what I call four pillars of healing. And those fill four pillars are meditation, movement, connection and pleasure. And so we have physical exercises that address that fall under each of those umbrellas. And so the more somatic exercises, number one breath. So yogic breathing, learning how to regulate our autonomic nervous system through breath, and learning how to use breath to ride waves of pleasure and sensation and relax with sensation so that we can expand into it. So, and that's particularly important for people with penises who suffer from premature Ejaculation. Learning how to relax at peaks of sensation is huge. So, we teach yogic breathing to learn how to regulate your own autonomic nervous system. And then on top of that, we layer some of the somatic sexual healing practices. So there's one 20 to 30 minute practice as I like to call, like your little Tantra quickie that weaves mindful breathing and meditation with sexual stimulation. And then we have more in-depth trademarked. Actually I think it's copyrighted. Somatic sexual healing practices, authentic tantra yoni and authentic tantra lingam massage. And these are the actual sexual healing methods that I cultivated and developed and worked with my mentor in Kauai back in 2008 and 2009. So they are original to our school, methods that I've been working with for, almost 15 years that are designed to unlock and release you know, imprints trauma, wounding emotions, whatever you want, whatever word you put there. Release, you know, density from the actual genital tissue and thereby restore sensation. And then from there, build and expand pleasure. So something, one of the miracles that I discovered is over 15 different types of orgasm that my body can experience. So my, yeah, so, so my whole journey into sexology wasn't me reading books and learning about,

Dr. Willow: 28:51

was your body.

Devi: 28:52

It was me having experiences and like, holy shit, am I allowed to have that? So then I started researching human sexual anatomy and physiology and sexual functioning, and I'm like, oh yeah, there's actually names for all these orgasms. So they were categorized because I experienced them, and then I went and learned what the scientific zones were for them. So, so, so so we layer 15 different orgasms is, is kind of like the cherry on top, but we build slowly to that point so that your body has the capacity to blossom into that, shall we say.

Leah: 29:29

Yeah. Right.

Dr. Willow: 29:30

All that breath work and all that meditation, it builds your capacity so that as the pleasure builds, You can hold it, right? safely. yes, yes,

Devi: 29:40

Exactly. Slowly, gently.

Leah: 29:42

I think you, you said something really interesting that I want to just pinpoint and just sort of spotlight rather. Is this idea of relaxing into arousal. And, I would go as far as to say, to relax into orgasm. because many, I mean, I think orgasm and pleasure and arousal are so interesting because, and I think life is interesting with the pulsation, right? We're, everything's a pulsation, right? Nature's a

Dr. Willow: 30:07

expansion and a contraction.

Leah: 30:09

pulsation, our heartbeats. Everything's

Devi: 30:11

right? breath. yes.

Leah: 30:13

And orgasm is like that too. And I think one of the things that people can learn to control and to expand into, because if we're just in our biology, meaning our body's just propelling itself forward, we're going to have really rapid contractions as one goes to ejaculate or as one goes to, into an orgasm, clitoral orgasm, even vaginal. And so If you can use your breath and be intentional about hyper relaxing your body at these peak states of arousal. You don't want to stop the pulsation and the deep contraction, but you can relax and expand each one. It's kind of like taking a long breath. And the more you can kind of expand into the relaxation while going into an orgasm, when it really wants to do something fast, you can slow it all down and it's a different type of orgasm, it's, you'll have a different experience. If you can be mindful at that moment to go, what would it be like instead of tightening my legs so my clitoris gets more friction? Or instead of squeezing my ass and tightening my shoulders and my neck to go into an Ejaculation. What if I really concentrated on relaxing my eyes, my mouth all, you know, my PC muscles, my shoulders, my hips. What if my legs were wide open in that moment of orgasm? To have a relaxed orgasm is a trip and a half, and it's just a way to bring some more variety to your experience. And it

Dr. Willow: 31:39

it extends it too. It's extend the expansive.

Devi: 31:43

And this to me is where the tantra comes in because what we're describing is letting go of attachment. To particular experience or letting go of attachment to an outcome. And that is the biggest thing that we have to rewire. Because we're so conditioned to grasp and attach to what we think is an orgasm. And what most, what I thought was an orgasm before my Tantra healing is like, it was a sneeze. It was a genital sneeze that was a orgasm, was a genital sneeze.

Leah: 32:11

Yes.

Devi: 32:12

Exactly what our potential is literally infinite. And we won't be able to experience that potential if we're grasping and clinging to what we think an orgasm should look like. And we're all constricted and tightened around it like you were describing. So that to me is that point where we weave in the Tantra is the mindfulness and the awareness that instead of grasping and attaching, which is a root poison to this experience of orgasm. We let go of attachment and surrender, relax and surrender into bliss. Bliss is the opposite of attachment. And so exactly what you were describing, Leah, that ability to relax into those peaks, relax into those contractions instead of tightening around them. Relax and open to receive, and then our orgasm goes from this to this. And then we can have 10 orgasms in a row effortlessly, no straining.

Leah: 33:07

Yeah. Then you get to realize that thousand petal lotus that yogis have been talking about forever. You know, when you see those images of Chakras and you see this big blossom, you see that sort of a fractal experience of your pleasures. It has like a fractal blossoming of these petals that just zing into the universe, and then you're a part of the oneness. And if you can keep your eyes open and share that with a partner. Then, and they're sharing it with you, and then you're transmitting, and then, even if you are not in the state of climax, but they are, if your eyes are open and you're weaving that back and forth to each other, then their orgasm becomes your orgasm. And those I always called freebies, and it's just like, then your body is infused with each other and that's where that intimacy is more possible. And I think one of the things that came to mind as you were describing that, Devi, is when we're grasping and we're chasing, we're setting ourselves up for either judging ourselves as failures or as winners, and that robs us of connection. when we feel like we're inadequate or our partner's inadequate or we're not in sync because we have an idea of what in sync looks like. And so to be able to let go of that attachment, then you're just in the openness. and only job is to go, how big is big. How open is open and even if there comes a moment where we close, the love of their opening can open us back up. Or the remembering that, oh, it's just a close, it's not permanent.

Dr. Willow: 34:38

And that is so healing in and of itself. because then you start to see, the difference between the plane that we live on, that we think we are, which is this changing plane where everything is going to change, right? It's like,

Leah: 34:51

Right.

Dr. Willow: 34:51

I love you one day. I don't love you the next day, it's like things are going to change. And then what you're we're talking about here is basically enlightenment through orgasmic bliss, what did you say it was? So I want to coin what you said. Bliss is the opposite of...

Devi: 35:05

attachment. Yeah.

Dr. Willow: 35:08

That's it right there. Because then there's this unchanging realm and this unchanging field, which is the Tao or whatever you want to call it, the isness, it's the field, it's being in state, it's enlightenment. It is really the only place where true contentment can be experienced.

Devi: 35:24

And so imagine if all the couples currently in our mainstream world, imagine if all the couples were having this experience of love making once a week. Y'all like

Dr. Willow: 35:36

Even once a week.

Devi: 35:37

Even once a week relaxing into your thousand petaled lotus

Leah: 35:40

Shit, even once a month, like anything would be helpful.

Devi: 35:43

exactly. We would have sex reimagined. We would be living an entirely different reality. We would not have time for this bullshit fuckery, because you know what? We're all anchored in bliss and we're purifying our attachment through bliss every weekend.

Dr. Willow: 35:57

Ding,

Leah: 35:58

and so also like not being a, not being attached to the state, we're just talking about either not chasing that either. Because that's, again, it's another trap. If you think that's what you're supposed to get to, then again, you're just getting, you're getting, getting wrapped up in that attachment or that wish, and I just want to like, imagine. For like the audience what if you didn't feel like the pressure of your partner wanting something for you, which is usually, generous and loving and they just want you to get off and be happy and feel full. But if that was, if that could be unplugged from sex too where we're just coming to experience love and we'd let the body do the rest. I think we get so goal oriented, even though the goal of liberation or the goal of orgasm, or the goal of feeling. adequate or powerful or I'm, I'm cool because I gave them that experience. It's like, if we could just let that go and go, I'm just going to show up. I'm going to show up whether I'm shut down or I have a headache, or I feel sad, I'm going to just show up and see can I take love in? Can I feel love? Can I give love? Right. And just see what happens. Like to just be curious.

Devi: 37:14

See, and that way curiosity in my opinion is the prime attitude to have about any adventure in life, but particularly sexuality. because if I'm curious then I'm not attached, I'm curious to see what's going to happen. I'm curious to see if I have orgasms or no orgasm. I'm curious to see what happens if I do this in your butt. I'm curious to see what happens if you do this to my nipple. Let's find out. And it's, you know, and I love because it's a game. Cause the causes and conditions are different every time. Every time my husband and I make love, it's different every time, every single time. We've had some fucked up experiences and we've had amazing experiences and we laughed the whole way through. We're like, wow, that was really fucked up.

Leah: 37:53

yes Yes

Dr. Willow: 37:54

I'm

Leah: 37:55

yes, yes,

Dr. Willow: 37:56

I'm curious, I'm curious, what, would you say that we are really like doing right in our society around eradicating shame or like, trying to heal it on a collective level, and then where could we use some more

Leah: 38:12

Yeah. Yeah. Are we doing anything right, right now? That's a good question.

Devi: 38:16

Well, I would say that this conversation right now is doing something right. Yeah,

Dr. Willow: 38:21

I would agree.

Devi: 38:22

I would say the increase in these types of conversations, I would say those of us in the field that are holding these types of conversation and holding that anchor of compassion and non-judgment and love and acceptance and celebration and the interweaving, to me, one of the most important pieces is the interweaving of our spirituality with our sexuality, because that's what we've been, that's what has been robbed from us. Right. This division between sexuality and spirituality. That spirituality, that's a byproduct byproduct of colonialism, as I was saying before. when we talk about restoring, or reclaiming our sexuality, what we're reclaiming it from is colonialist patriarchy. Like matriarchal societies on this planet did not have to deal with what we're dealing with today, right? And so what we're dealing with today is a byproduct of colonialism. And so what we're doing right is count when, anytime we stand up and counteract that. Anytime women are online openly talking about our pleasure and our pussies, we're doing it right.

Leah: 39:24

Ding, ding, ding. Yes. And those conversations are happening more and more, aren't they? I mean, I'm seeing them a lot more on social media. But sometimes I'm worried that I live in a bubble. You know? I think sometimes when, when you're living on a coast. like how far is this getting into middle America?

Dr. Willow: 39:40

Yeah. We're seeing them because this is what we do on what we're talking about. There's still a lot of places in this country and Canada too, and around the world that are not having these conversations. So, you know, that's why always with our bullhorns. Like, Hey, y'all, there's a of bliss over here. You don't have to live in duality of right and wrong and good and bad. Like there's another way.

Leah: 40:07

Yeah. So what do you think parents can do? Because I lot of times part of the change happens with, you know, better communication skills, collecting information, each of us listening to regarding the colonization issue? And then also what advice you'd have for kids that are growing up in this day and age, or for the parents who are raising them.

Devi: 40:28

Yeah, so specifically about children. Your children learn about sexuality from you as a parent. So whatever your blocks and wounds are, your children are going to live them.

Leah: 40:39

Yeah. They're either going to adopt'em or rebel against them, which may not be a good choice, either one.

Devi: 40:43

Exactly. Exactly. because, because you're, it's not coming from a place of rooted in, healthy, you know, in in healthy humanity. And so the number one thing that I advise parents is heal your relationship to your own sexuality. Learn, celebrate, you know, demonstrate in the home healthy, warm, loving, nurturing, sexuality. If you want your children to have a healthy sexual relationship, demonstrate it. Model it for them. And if you're not with a partner, demonstrate healthy sexuality with yourself for your own self. Take time to self pleasure. Take time for sensual pleasure, take time prioritize your need for self connection and pleasure, and your child is going to learn it from you. They're going to learn, oh, this is important to nourish myself before, you know, after or before I nourish other people. So very, very important. What you do, your child, your modeling to your children. Your children will follow. So, so that's, that's my advice for parents in relationship to sexuality with children; is do your, do your work and then share your work with your children.

Leah: 41:45

What does that modeling look like? Because not everyone may know what that is.

Devi: 41:49

And that's a really good question because we have different views of what healthy is, right? In relationship to sexuality. My view of healthy sexuality isn't necessarily going to be the same as somebody else's health view of what healthy sexuality is. So, in my opinion, healthy sexuality means again, that attitude of curiosity. That recognition that we're, we're probably carrying some wounding and the willingness to look at it, examine it, overcome, and heal it. The ability to talk about sexuality and pleasure without feeling frozen about it. Without feeling aversion to it, just like it's a sex is as normal and natural as breathing, eating, pooping, peeing. It's a function of the human body, right? If you like, if you feel a comparison I like to make is notice how much shame you feel about talking about what you're cooking for dinner. You should have the same amount of shame talking about sex. sex

Dr. Willow: 42:45

Talking about sex

Leah: 42:46

Yes.

Devi: 42:47

poop

Dr. Willow: 42:48

or pee, for that matter.

Devi: 42:49

Exactly. They are, it's a normal, and in fact, sex is a form of nourishment. Even more, you know, poop and pee are waste by products. Sex is a form of nourishment for the spirit, for the body, for the soul, for the psyche, right? So it literally is the equivalent of food. So if I feel shame talking about sex and I don't feel shame talking about when I'm cooking for dinner, that's a little red flag for me. Letting me know that I have wounding. Shame is a little red flag, letting me know that there's wounding. it is, it's like, oh, I, need some attention. I have wounding here. I'm I, I'm not accepting my, I'm not in unconditional acceptance and love in this moment because I have shame. Shame is when we divorce ourselves from a piece of ourselves. It's separation. We're separating ourselves off from piece that we judge.

Leah: 43:35

Banishing banishment

Devi: 43:36

Cause we judge it. We're like, that's bad. I don't want you. I don't, I don't embrace you. I don't accept you. That's what shame is. So it's, a cry for love. Shame is a cry for love. First thing for me is noticing, you know, because oftentimes we want to get away from it. You know, walking throughout my day and I have this little shame niggle. I'm like, shut up go away. You know, like I have shit to do. But when I can take the time to be present with, I notice it. And the first thing I do is I notice where it's arising in my body. Where do you live in my body? And then I usually put a hand there. I bring some touch to that area and I breathe into it and I invite it to share with me, to tell me what is the need under here? What are you needing? And it's usually self-acceptance. I feel afraid. I feel terrified, I feel scared, and I have a need for acceptance and love. And so then I just say, okay. And I just look at you and I, you know, I shed the bring the light of my love, the light of my awareness to that little shadow and integrate it back into the whole. And if it keeps arising, I just do that same process. But I notice where it lives in my body and then I tend to that area.

Dr. Willow: 44:40

So that's a somato emotional release basically, is what you're doing. Yeah. I think that is one of the most valuable and powerful ways to heal from sexual trauma and from shame and guilt.

Leah: 44:51

Fear.

Dr. Willow: 44:52

And they do live so deeply in the soma and you can't think your way, you can't think them out of your body. You have to feel them out of your body. So like what Devi's talking about is like, oh where do I feel this shadow or this niggling of shame? Okay, I feel it in my heart. What does it feel like? In my heart? Feels like a tension, it feels tight, it feels like it's hard to breathe with it there, and we get to know it, right? If we're visual people maybe we see something. So I really value what you're saying Devi, around just getting to know it and finding out what it wants. There's medicine in it.

Devi: 45:28

There's medicine it.

Leah: 45:29

Like that critical voice that comes in and wants to shut us down or stop us from being free and big. Or like for me, I I'd be in a therapy session and I would get, so I could fall asleep. I could, it would take me two seconds just to close my eyes and pass out. And it was to get curious like, wow, I can't believe I'm feeling so sleepy right now. What is this trying to protect me from seeing? What is this trying to protect me from deeply feeling? What is it afraid of that it has to be so cruel in its words towards me, that unworthiness or you don't deserve it, or you're so ugly, you know, no one's going to love you. Like, how could that possibly have something medicine for me? How could that possibly be a gift? And then to just ask it, what are you afraid of? What would happen if you saw me as beautiful? You know, like what would happen if I lived that instead of ugly. What are you afraid would happen to me? Then you start to get productive some productive, things get to happen.

Devi: 46:28

And I love that you use the word curiosity again leah. Leah. So I'm just going to, I'm just going it's my favorite. That is the to word for our conversation, curiosity.

Dr. Willow: 46:38

You never

Devi: 46:39

curiosity Exactly. It's

Dr. Willow: 46:40

go with curiosity.

Leah: 46:42

And isn't it true? Isn't it true, Devi like I think curiosity is an antidote to judgment. If we notice ourselves in judgment, all you have to do is go, well, that's interesting I just had that thought. Well, that's interesting. I just thought that about him. Well, that's interesting. I don't like that. You know, And go, huh? And if you can just say, well, that's interesting, that's the bridge that can lead you into more curiosity, and then you're less disdainful, and now you get to go from closed to being open and then so much is possible from that place. Especially compassion. Self-compassion. yeah. Compassion for other, fuck what we could change if we could all learn how to rewire the judgment to curiosity. And, Whew.

Dr. Willow: 47:30

Lot could be

Leah: 47:30

to that.

Dr. Willow: 47:31

from Curious place. Yes.

Devi: 47:33

Yeah.

Dr. Willow: 47:35

Oh, so powerful. Devi do you have any like, final words of wisdom, final words of just to people who are like, shit, I've been through some of the most insane sexual trauma that a human being can go through, and I don't even want to look at it. I don't even want to heal my sexuality. You know, would you say?

Devi: 47:59

I would say honor that number one. The the journey of reclamation and healing for me and what I've witnessed to my students is primarily about honoring the wisdom of our own body. Including the wisdom that says, I'm afraid, and I feel overwhelmed. I don't want to look at that right now. Okay. You don't want to look at it right now. That's okay. Pause there. Honor that, like, bless

Leah: 48:24

yourself. Right?

Dr. Willow: 48:25

Yeah. Be With Be with that.

Devi: 48:27

then have space for curiosity that, that, that might change. You curious about dipping your toe and exploring. And the other thing I would say is slowly, gently. There, there's nothing, we're not broken. There's nothing wrong with us. We're exploring, we're evolving into more of our potential. It's, it can be a beautiful, graceful, intense, but profound journey. And if we're not trying to fix ourselves or running from our own shadows, there's so much more grace and ease in the process, then we truly just come from a place of curiosity and exploration as opposed to, I need to fix something that's broken.

Leah: 49:07

Yeah, and I love that thing about timing. It's like, I'll trust that there's a ripe timing happening. You know, there's a ripening when your body is open and just keep your ears open. If you get the call. If you get the call, now's the time. You know, it may be a not right now, I'm not ready, but if you can just be open to getting the call then you'll know when it's time to embark on something new or different.

Dr. Willow: 49:32

sometimes it's just an invitation, you know, like I invite myself be ready at some point, you know,

Leah: 49:38

yeah.

Devi: 49:39

But, and I would also say like, you know, listening to conversations like these, listening to your podcast and other podcasts about sexuality is a very, you know, low impact, low cost investment in just learning and understanding to reframe your relationships to your sexuality. Just kind of inviting in another lens, you don't have to do anything but listen to other people share some ideas about sex. Like that's a beautiful way to get started.

Dr. Willow: 50:03

Right. Absolutely.

Leah: 50:06

Speaking of that, if you want to pick up and experience more of this conversation, go to the Sex Reimagined podcast. Episode 33 is with Devi and we go into much more detail around the five elements Tantra and authentic Tantra, and of the school and the Certification process. So we just received notice last month or a couple months ago that our our curriculum for our two year authentic tantra certification training program has been accepted as a master's degree Ubiquity University, which is phenomenal. So literally we have institutionalized Tantra into Western academia. So not are we the only government accredited school for tantric sexual healing in the world and the government, the Canadian government considers our training program instruction in Eastern medicine. And graduates of our training program are practitioners of natural healing. Graduates will also be board certified sexologists through the American Board of Sexology. And you can also use your credits from our certification program to achieve a master's degree in authentic tantra from Ubiquity University.

Dr. Willow: 51:16

Amazing.

Leah: 51:16

amazing. I'm congratulations.

Devi: 51:19

Thank you. Thanks for taking the industry to the next level.

Leah: 51:23

Like really just so heartfelt congratulations. It's such a big step forward for this industry, and you're at the head of it. It's so cool. Thank you sista.

Dr. Willow: 51:35

Oh my God, I totally wanna do it.

Leah: 51:37

I know I do too.

Dr. Willow: 51:39

I'm like, geez, can find some time? I'm gonna have to clear about 5 million projects and things outta my life. That sounds so great though. Amazing It would

Devi: 51:50

be an honor to have you, whenever it works.

Dr. Willow: 51:52

And Devi's teachings are so coming from the ancient, they're so deep and they're so profound, and they're so just rich, sustainable. I mean, you're gonna, you can't go

Leah: 52:04

Credible. Yeah.

Dr. Willow: 52:05

Yeah.

Devi: 52:05

Yep. And you can get a master's degree.

Leah: 52:08

Uh,

Dr. Willow: 52:08

Hey,

Leah: 52:09

Ding, ding, ding.

Dr. Willow: 52:10

Been wanting to get a master's degree. Here you go.

Leah: 52:14

There you go.

Dr. Willow: 52:16

Get a master's degree in pleasure, why not?

Leah: 52:18

Right.

Devi: 52:18

Yeah, right. I was like the Canadian government sanctioned our use of meditating and masturbating and like they qualify that as eastern medicine. I mean, I'm in!

Leah: 52:28

I know. I was gonna say, go Canada. You did it again.

Dr. Willow: 52:33

Canada, America. Follow Canada's lead.

Leah: 52:36

right, right, right, right. And Devi you have a free gift for

Devi: 52:39

audience? Yes, I do. So we have a free introduction to Authentic Tantra that I just filmed recently. What I

Dr. Willow: 52:47

Oh,

Devi: 52:47

And this free introduction is we had one before but I wanted to update it because there's questions in the marketplace that I took this opportunity to address. So there's conversations about different styles of Tantra, you know, different traditions of Tantra, different lineages of Tantra, and then in the modern world, like, you know, different types of Tantra that you may be exposed to as a consumer. So I really made that video series with the consumer, with you, as the explorer in mind to answer a lot of questions that I see people people in the industry having. So, so it's a free gift at our website, authentictantra.com, you can sign up for our Free Introduction to Authentic Tantra, and it's about six videos. And I also created a beautiful Solo Sexual Healing Practice for, for you to do as well. Spent a

Leah: 53:34

Right

Devi: 53:35

cultivating

Dr. Willow: 53:35

gift. I'm going that up Yeah, Thank you.

Leah: 53:39

well,

Dr. Willow: 53:40

Such a pleasure. Gosh, we hang out with you for a know, we need to come up to have a girls week

Leah: 53:45

I, know. It's with you. I love it.

Devi: 53:47

Well, I, you know, and I, just, I love like colleagues, you know, talking about sexual healing and Tantra and evolution and enlightenment. So it's been, it's very soul nourishing for me as well connecting with y'all. And I would love to have you, I would love to host you here in Cologna, anytime.

Announcer: 54:02

Now, our favorite part, the dish.

Leah: 54:08

Well, dish, dish, on the lovely dish, Devi

Dr. Willow: 54:11

Dish on Devi. Devi Ward Erikson. Yeah, she's such a rock star. I mean, creating a master's in Tantra, and getting it accredited, and getting it, I mean that is just no small task.

Leah: 54:25

It's a huge accomplishment. Yeah, it's a major step forward in, uh, our industry. Yeah.

Dr. Willow: 54:31

is. Yeah.

Leah: 54:32

She is a bright light and, um, I so enjoyed her interview. I, I just loved every answer that she gave. It was like, she just sparks, you know. Uh, She's got a spark about her that I just, I, I feel resonant towards.

Dr. Willow: 54:48

She's such a firecracker like, you, Leah. You, you both are just so um, animated and such theatrical speakers. It's fun.

Leah: 54:56

what was what was one of your favorite parts, like, uh, in terms of topic regarding the interview?

Dr. Willow: 55:02

I mean, I, what did she say? Loved it was such a great coin term. She said, Shame is a cry for, uh, healing.

Leah: 55:11

Curiosity or something?

Dr. Willow: 55:12

or

Leah: 55:13

Was it?

Dr. Willow: 55:14

like that.

Leah: 55:15

Oh no, shame is attachment? What did she say?

Dr. Willow: 55:18

it was great. Whatever it was, but it was like,

Leah: 55:20

whatever it was, we liked it We should have written it down, but thankfully it was recorded.

Dr. Willow: 55:26

yeah, and I asked her again a second time in the interview. Yeah, I just, you know, I love her, her wisdom. I really have to say, just her overall wisdom, her overall approach. I think that it's, that it's, It's founded in elements, really feels so synonymous to my training and my foundation and um, that there is this very earth based approach and philosophy behind what she's teaching. It makes so much sense to people and when somebody's really articulate about it, they're like, Oh, okay. Oh, I understand that because I know what an expansion is when I inhale and a contraction is when I exhale. And so, you know, there was a lot of Taoist talk that we didn't really point to as Taoism, but just that, that there is this, like. Um, pulse to life, you know, that you use the word pulse to life. And, you know, we talked about curiosity and how that opens up the pulse to greater expanded capacities and more pleasure can come through. And just, I thought the whole conversation was great. What about you?

Leah: 56:30

Yeah, I, I, and I think that that is, um, one of the things that she has done well is, has a clear method. This is first, this is second, this is third, this is fourth. We build upon this, this, and this. and I think most teachers do that, they just haven't all articulated it. And so, you know, it's like, okay, first is meditation, and then we work with the subtle body, and then we bring in the Soma touch practices, and then there's connection, like, she has it formulated, and I think from just a marketing standpoint, there's people resonate with that. There's a feeling that they can trust the content when you can articulate its formula. Um, and you know, when you're looking at, at new esoteric things that are less familiar and mainstream, sometimes it's hard to come up with a language that, that represents a clear formula for others. So I think that's another place that she's just done really well. And I, and I really respond well to that. My body

Dr. Willow: 57:30

Yeah. Absolutely.

Leah: 57:32

And I loved, oh go ahead,

Dr. Willow: 57:34

just going to say, she's just got such a great story herself, you know, from stripper to monk to tantra, fucking master's degree, leading educator in the world.

Leah: 57:46

And, and like the two, the two places that she spent before the Tantra, like, how important those two places are to what she gets to realize from the

Dr. Willow: 57:55

I know, you know what I wanted to ask her and I forgot was like, how much of your stripper days is infused into your teachings?

Leah: 58:03

Yeah, that'd be a good one. That'd be a fun one.

Dr. Willow: 58:06

There's something so freeing, like as a stripper, I know, I have some friends who are strippers, you know, um, they're so free in their sexuality, they're so, they're so, um, what's the word like? Uninhibited, yes, with their bodies, and they just really like to, they, they worship their bodies, like they're on stage worshipping their own bodies, it's just such a, a beautiful thing to, um, be able to turn into an art form. I really think it can be an art form, it depends on your, your, you know, how you're going into it, and how you're holding it, but, www.

Leah: 58:40

Right, and how healthy you are in the expression of what this is. Are you in survival mode or are you in art mode? You know, there's, if you're coming from an artistic place or you're coming from a survival desperate place. I mean, it all holds different energy and therefore it represents something else, you know. And neither one, uh, no judgment, wherever one is at along that process, you're doing the best you can, period, the end. Um. You know, one of the things I really loved that you described was the whole, the Kriya, I loved the river metaphor. Loved it, loved it. I hope I can remember to use that in the future. It's

Dr. Willow: 59:18

That's always how I describe meridians. When people get on the table for acupuncture, they're like, what exactly are you doing? I'm like, well, every time I put a needle in, it's like unkinking the hose. You use the hose. We learned that too in school or unblocking the dam of the river. It's you know, getting into that Ka body, that subtle body. And that's how what the terminology I use for it is, uh, is really a game changer for the way that you then move energy through your physical body. And when we're working with the Jing energy or sexual energy Shakti, we're working with tangible fluids. Like for men the Jing Chi is semen. For women, it is their blood, and so those tangible fluids, when we know how to circulate them and move them through different pathways, or nadis, or meridians, or these rivers in our bodies, then, uh, we can make magic with it. We can make magic in our bodies.

Leah: 1:00:17

Right. Because it sounds like you're harnessing the vitality from the, from that Jing Chi and then you can use the rivers to take that vitality to other places in the body so it can be alchemized. Yeah.

Dr. Willow: 1:00:29

Alchemy,

Leah: 1:00:29

Love it. Yeah, I um, You know, we didn't talk as much about the patriarchal colonization aspect. I know we had intended to a little bit more in the beginning of the interview. Um, but I really, I really love the direction it went in and maybe we can have her back

Dr. Willow: 1:00:47

Oh, we will have her

Leah: 1:00:48

say more about all that

Dr. Willow: 1:00:50

She's so good at

Leah: 1:00:51

Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you. Love y'all. Bye.

Announcer: 1:00:56

Thanks for tuning in. This episode was hosted by Tantric Sex Master Coach and Positive Psychology Facilitator, Leah Piper, as well as by Chinese and Functional Medicine Doctor and Taoist Sexology Teacher, Dr. Willow Brown. Don't forget, your comments, likes, subscribes, and suggestions matter. Let's realize this new world together.