The Sex Reimagined Podcast

Zeke & Terri Mead: Near Divorce - How We Accidentally Saved Our 25-Year Marriage & Reclaimed Our Sexuality | #169

• Leah Piper and Dr. Willow Brown • Season 4 • Episode 169

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Picture this: January 2021, middle of the pandemic. After 25 years of marriage, Zeke and Terri finally admitted what everyone already knew. They weren't happy. They weren't good for each other anymore. Their kids responded to the divorce announcement with "it's about time." For ten years, they'd danced around separation, taking turns being the one who wasn't ready to let go. During their first week living separately (Zeke had moved into their son's bedroom), Terri went through her own emotional journey. By Saturday, driving to tennis with gorgeous weather and great music, she felt ready for whatever came next. One thing she definitely wanted was really good sex. She wanted to reclaim who she'd been before marriage, rediscover her midlife body, understand what she actually enjoyed. That evening, she made a proposition that changed everything: "What do you think about having sex? I want to reclaim who I am. I want to experiment." What happened was the beginning of what Terri calls "sexploration." With no pressure, no obligation, no expectations about their relationship's future, they started playing. Terri researched toys, techniques, videos. She centered her own pleasure instead of everyone else's needs. They became vulnerable with each other. They communicated about everything. Most surprisingly, they started falling back in love, but this time consciously, intentionally, with completely different ground rules.

KEY INSIGHTS

  • Weekly relationship check-ins prevent small issues from becoming marriage-ending problems using five essential questions
  • Sexual exploration without obligation transforms intimacy when women take responsibility for their own pleasure
  • Daily recommitment builds security while honoring choice, with morning "I love you" commitments replacing trapped feelings
  • Divorcing your old relationship to consciously create a new one works better than trying to fix what's broken
  • Separating love and sex allows you to rediscover both and reunify them more powerfully
  • Side-by-side positioning against problems prevents the destructive pattern of facing off against each other

LINKS & RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THE EPISODE CAN BE FOUND HERE ON THE WEBSITE

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Willow:

today we're talking to Zeke and Terry Mead proof that life's most exciting adventures can start after 50, after nearly 25 years of marriage, they faced divorce and then something unexpected happened. Through sex. They accidentally rebooted their relationship, rediscovered each other, and decided to embrace a whole new chapter together. Now they're just thriving as a couple. They've even launched a business called Zeke and Terry Adventures proving that reinvention is always possible no matter your age. So welcome everyone to the Sex Reimagined podcast. I'm Dr. Willow Brown. I'm here with the one and only Leah Piper, and we are so grateful for all your wonderful like shares and subscribes, keep them coming. And today we are here with Zeke and Terry.

Leah:

guys, it's time to really be inspired by love and the reimagined relationship that second chances are real and they're possible. So please tune in, turn on, and fall in love with Zeke and Terry.

Announcer:

Welcome to the Sex Reimagined Podcast, where sex is shame-free and pleasure forward. Let's get into the show.

zeke & terri:

Whoa, whoa. whoa. I, we've fallen in love. They don't need to fall in love with us. They can fall in love on their own. Let's just, I just wanna establish some boundaries here. I need a safe word. Can we get a safe word?

Leah:

reimagined. Okay. We're all about

Willow:

Our subscribers falling in love with everyone we talk to.

Leah:

Yes,

zeke & terri:

I don't know.

Leah:

with your advice.

zeke & terri:

I don't, I don't know if our home insurance policy is gonna cover that.

Leah:

Okay folks, you've been warned, keep your love at a safe distance. All right. Welcome to the show, Terry, and welcome, zeke

zeke & terri:

Thank you. Thank you. It's, it's, uh, we're looking forward to super fun conversation.

Leah:

great.

Willow:

tell us how this whole, um, sexual revolution in your marriage just kept you going. Like, how did that come about? Did you guys look into some Tantra courses? Did you just get into some books or what kind of sparked this whole reinvention?

zeke & terri:

Well, I think we need to back backtrack just a little bit to, you know, where we were at the point of divorce and how like a week later, um, my brilliant idea to have sex accidentally allowed us to reboot our, our relationship after nearly 25

Leah:

real, quick, Terry, let's even roll back further. I wanna hear the original love story. How did you guys come together to fall in love the first time?

zeke & terri:

We actually have to go back to when we were 10 years old and we were both in the gifted and talented education system, which a lot of you Gen Xers might be familiar with. Um, we went to two different elementary schools and all of the gate kids con converged once a month for everything from. Um, I don't know, reading related stuff to computer programming stuff, you know, anything to keep us interested in school. He remembers Zeke remembers meeting or seeing me and my identical twin sister, Sherry. I don't remember him. And then when we all converged with the same junior high for seventh and eighth grade, we met again. We went together in the eighth grade for about six weeks. I dumped him. We were friends through high school. Uh, when we were about 20, 21, we reconnected again. I was in the Bay Area going to college. He was in Chico, of course, starving college student. And we hooked up again. But it's, it's, the story's better if I say that I dumped him, but it just kind of fizzled out. We were 24, we dated again. Um, he swooped in after I was in a long-term relationship with. He did erotic, uh, poetry on my voicemail picnics on the beach, but I wasn't ready for it, so I dumped him again. And when I was 25, I made a list of everything I wanted in a guy and he met all the criteria, except he was essentially the boy next door. I had dumped three times and I had long-term memory loss. So, uh, but you knew which one of it was Terry and which one was Sherri? Yes. Yeah, so we, um, we went skiing, had a little bit too much wine and I just said, you know, we need to date one more time and either our friendship is over'cause we can't keep doing this or we're getting married. And 14 months later we were married. So the age of, yeah, so the age of 26, we got into marriage thinking without a lot of thought or um, intention, which was just kind of what was done back then. So we did, we got married, we bought the house, we got the dog, we had the kids, uh, built the careers. He ended up staying home with the kids, um, once our oldest was going into first grade and our lives just went just kind of separate. Ended with this major chasm between us because we were not intentional about our relationship. And so for about 10 years, we danced around, um, separating, getting divorced. One of us would say We're done, and the other one would say, I'm not ready. And so finally. In, uh, January of 2021, we both kind of came to the same conclusion that it wasn't working. Um, and when we told our kids, they were like, well, it's about time. I mean, they knew that we were not modeling good relationship behavior. We were not happy with each other. Um, so that's to catch you up to the point where we just said, okay, we're done. And then we spent the following week, it was during the pandemic, and so Zeke just moved into our son's bedroom. He was off at college, but we were spending every evening together, you know, we cooked dinner together, we watched something after dinner. And, um, I was just devastated because I saw. I process things really quickly, a lot faster than he does, and I was just like, okay, well what's this gonna look like? We're going to be friends forever because we have been friends forever. We still love each other, just, we're just not good as a couple. We're not good for each other. We're not good as individuals with each other. It just wasn't healthy. So every day we would talk about it. We looked into buying a house on the street so we could stay close together. We, um, you know, we wanted to continue to be there for the kids. And I'm a silver lining kind of gal and I can get over things within like 36 to 48 hours and I was not seeing any sort of silver lining. And I'd go in and I'd just be devastated and he would just hold me as I cried. By the, the end of the week, you know, I was asking him like, why aren't you as devastated as me? And he said, Terry, you process things faster. I'm just not there yet. And so finally on the Friday, I said to him, I'm like, who's going to be my emergency contact? And he said, I'll always be your emergency

Leah:

Mm-hmm.

zeke & terri:

So, you know, it was at that point it was like, okay, I can close the door on this. The next day I was driving, um, to play some tennis. The weather was gorgeous and I had some great tunes on, and I could feel the color coming back into my life. And I was like, okay, I'm ready for the next stage. And one of the things I thought about is like, I wanna have sex. I wanna have really good sex. Our sex and our relationship wasn't really great, um, up until that point. And I was like, if I'm gonna get back out there, I wanna reclaim who I was before I got married, and I want to, you know, reclaim my midlife body and everything else. And so after dinner we're sitting there and I just said to him, I'm like, Hey, what do you think about having sex? And he goes, is that a good idea? And I'm like, well. Why not? We can't go out and date. I wanna reclaim who I am. I wanna rediscover or discover new things. So after, after we watch this, I'm gonna go take a bath, come join me in the bedroom. I'll be naked in bed and we'll see what happens. He's like, I don't know. He comes in and he's like, are you sure? And I said, absolutely. And that was the beginning of a completely new relationship. In a way that we hadn't expected because we, I use this, um, term sex exploration. We use sex exploration too um, you know, re redefine what we wanted in our bodies and everything else. And we started to communicate. We were vulnerable with each other. We had so much fun. I did a ton of research, just tried to find things for us to experiment with. Some things worked, some things didn't. And over time, as we were go, each of us were going through therapy individually and had no intention of rebooting the relationship through all of this. We were like, after a couple months, it's like. Maybe we should start dating again. So

Leah:

What was your kids' reaction when you told them, Hey, we're giving us another shot?

zeke & terri:

I don't remember. Do you remember what the kids said? Mm-hmm. We've, we've had to do, we've had to do a lot of like fixing and apologizing.'cause we realized just how badly we were modeling good relationship behavior. So I think that. Um, I don't think they're surprised by anything we do.'cause we do all sorts of weird things, you know, and it's like, okay, Terry has this idea, you know, mom has this idea to do something. Dad's going along with it. And, uh, to see, to see where we end, you know, see where we end up. But we'll have to ask them. I think, you know, in a, there are a lot of, I mean, even now, I mean, I think in the last week I was talking to our son who's 24, and I'm like, you know, we were talking about relationships. And I said, you know, I'm really sorry that we modeled things so poorly for you. And he goes, yeah, I think I'm having to kind of learn how to do it properly. And I said, that's what you're twenties are for, is to learn what you like, what you don't like, experiment. You're gonna have heartbreaks and stuff. But you know, your, your twenties are all about figuring out. Um, you know, and learning and experimenting, and if you treat it as such, then I think you can have a lot of fun with it.

Leah:

Wow, that's really great.

Willow:

Zeke, I'm so curious, like where, where, when this whole sort of like sexual evolution started coming forward and you were like, what was your reaction to it as it's started to evolve. Were, was there a point before conversation of like, oh, this is actually working, let's try this again. Was there a point inside of you where you were like, gosh, I hope that this sexual repark can make things work for us?

zeke & terri:

The sort of the best parallel I can draw is there was a lot of things going on at the same time. Um, Terry. Maybe even before, uh, this exploration thing started happening, um, it it, if you haven't figured out already, she likes to share. Um, did brought a book called The New I Do. And so I was flipping through this book and I was like, oh, and this is the first point in time in which I, I sort of, a light bulb went on to say. The relationship that we have together, uh, can change and it can change not just from being married to being separated or divorced or whatever, and being co-parents to two kids and whatever happens down the road. But we can also change the type of marriage that we have. And so I've sort of started thinking of, well, we can re-engineer the marriage, right? So we've divorced ourselves from the old marriage and we're re-imagining and re-engineering and making a new marriage that has different parameters and different um, uh a different structure, if you will. And so then I can sort of introduce myself and build this new marriage in the way that we want it to be, or I want it to be. And if that works out how she wants it to be, great. Then we're on our way. Paralleling that I also, this is the only time in my life, uh, that someone had approached me and, and I'm, I recognize I'm equating marriage to a job here, but it's not quite like that, but it's my closest analogy. Uh, I had someone approach me and say, Hey, I have this job that I, I think you'd be good for. I wasn't looking for a job. I didn't need a job. I knew nothing about the job. And so I went into that job saying, well, if you've approached me and you know who I am and I'm, you want me to do this job, then I'm gonna do this job how I want to do this job. And if it doesn't work out, then I leave because I didn't want the job in the first place. And the reaction I got when I went in and started doing things, how I would do them was everybody was like, this is great. Nobody did this before, right? Because someone, someone was hired or someone was looking for a job and they wanted to do the job. How the boss wanted them to do the job they thought, and so they preconceived of borders and, and, and, and restrictions on how to do it. And so paralleling our relationship was over 25 years. I had thought how things should be, and I wasn't. I wasn't. We had this relationship that didn't allow us to go outside of those boundaries, and so then we start this exploration, which obviously is let's explore as much new stuff as possible, which is what opened up a whole different type of relationship, uh, that was obviously been much more successful. Are

Willow:

So, so

zeke & terri:

are you saying, I'm a job?

Willow:

well, relationships, are

Leah:

Yeah.

Willow:

they hard work. Um, so, so these two things were happening in parallel. So you were going through a time in your life where you were actually stepping into, it sounds like more of your authenticity, more of your real truth, and like how you actually wanted to show up rather than how you were supposed to, which changed everything. Are you still working at that job? Are you still doing

zeke & terri:

No, no, unfortunately, uh, post COVID that went away. and as well as it was interesting, uh, side note, they hired me and said, we need you here at least three years. And I said, perfect. In three years, my youngest is gonna be off to college and we're gonna be off doing something else. Perfect. I like to build and, and, and redesign and then set something off on a new level. And literally three years to the day, and I started before COVID, three years almost to the day after that post COVID. I said, th this is, I'm done, and we're on our way. And then shortly after that it, that opportunity actually dissolved itself. So, yeah. Yeah. The business closed. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, so.

Leah:

well, I think. I, I wanna just highlight something really unique that occurred because I think also this is a really, it seems like a hard thing to do, but it sounds like it wasn't that hard for you. Because we get, so I think this happens with men all the time in their relationships with women. W women naturally feel like we know the best way forward, and we know how we like things done, and we can get irritated with men because they don't do it the way we would do it, even though how they would do it if we gave them the chance sometimes it's better. And if we could just step out of our own way, then everyone gets a win. And it's actually really hard. I'll speak for myself. It's been really hard to pull back that initial urge to go, no, no, no, no, no. It's supposed to be like this. Um, so it's kind of where I feel like the inner masculine of the feminine, um, has a way of disrupting what could be a really beautiful flow and partnership in male female dynamics. It's almost like we kind of emasculate men quite a bit. Because we just want them to do it the way we would do it, or we think that that's the right way. So what I'm hearing you say is like you guys really unplugged from that dynamic that I think is very common in our culture, and it sounds like Terry, like you were quite delighted that he did things his way and that there was something new arose from that. Am I tracking that correctly?

zeke & terri:

Just to jump in before Terry, uh, clarifies. I think the way it happened in my mind anyway, in, in my recollection is that it, the old relationship as that entity went away. And then Terry opened up an opportunity for that relationship to start in a new way and then paralleling my, the book she had and, and thinking was like, oh, okay. We, and she was the initiator of this, can have a different relationship. And so then that sort of started the ball rolling there. But, well, so in closing the door on the relationship in what I wanted to do, I actually centered everything around me. You know, in a patriarchal society, a lot of us women and girls are socialized to center our lives around men and boys and or make the decision around making sure everybody else is just fine. And in this particular case, it was like, oh, it's just gonna be me. You know, the kids are off to co, you know, essentially off to college. It's just gonna be, I need to refocus on me. I mean, I wrote a book called Piloting Your Life to Inspire women over the age of 40 to design and live a life of our own creation. Um, so, you know, I've done the research. I, I, you know, I preach certain things that I wasn't necessarily doing because it's so hard in, in the conditioning. So I remember going, okay, well if I'm gonna be on my own, I'm gonna center it around me. And so I said, this is what I want. You wanna show up for this great, you know, you show up the way that you want because I wasn't anticipating or expecting that we would have a relationship beyond a certain point that, um, we were never actually gonna get fully divorced because it, our financial situation is just too complicated. So it was just gonna be a matter of how are we gonna exist in the world? I was like, I'm never getting married again. I never wanna center my life around a man again. Me neither. You're not centering your life around the man again. Is there something a surprise in there? Um, so, so I was just like, I, I wanna, I wanna create the best possible me to really thrive in the next half of my life. And so, in showing, you know, in showing it was like, okay, did, you know, got inspired by sex with Emily and got lube and I'd already purchased a whole bunch of toys in my research for my book, purchase some more toys, watched some videos, tried some erotic audio stuff, you know, was just trying all of these different things and I brought him in'cause I trust him. You know, I trust that I wasn't gonna come home, you know. We weren't seeing anyone else, so we weren't introducing any sort of health issues. It was. Nearing the end of the perimenopause transit, the menopause transition. So I knew I wasn't gonna get pregnant. I knew that he didn't care what my body looked like, so I could show up in that. So it, there was a lot of freedom in that exploration. And in that freedom i'm like, I am not expecting you to give. I don't wanna say Give me pleasure'cause my pleasure is my own responsibility. But he showed up as a willing participant and he also wanted to learn and play. And that's what it was, is it was play. There was no obligation that was happening in it that happens a lot in relationships. And we were like, I did the majority of the research and said, okay, let's try this. Here's, here's what I've learned. Let's try this. You know, foreplay begins at the, the last sexual encounter, you know, don't show up um, you know, without, actually, that's actually not true. I was saying, look, I'm ripe and ready for this. You show up play, if not, I'm on my own. So I think it was less about doing it his way and it removed the obligation and I was doing it in service to myself and not in service to the relationship or to anyone else. And there was a lot of freedom that came from that experience.

Leah:

Cool. Yeah. That's awesome.

Willow:

all women could use to do, no matter what stage in life they're in, is like revote to themselves. Because I feel like it is such a very common sort of archetype, the martyr archetype where I'm, it's like I'm giving up everything for, for everyone around me. You know, the disease to please. I'm gonna make sure everyone has what they need and everyone's comfortable and everyone feels safe and, and at my own ex. Spence, this has been a very, um, sort of a longstanding, I think especially in certain generations, uh, a longstanding, uh, theme for women. And I feel like younger generations are doing it less and less, but I think even no matter what, again, what season or stage you're in at in life, that the re devotion to yourself and reclaiming of your own sexual divine feminine essence and energy is what is attractive and is what is magnetic for partners, whether they're male or female. You know, it's what's magnetic for life and opportunities. So it's um, such a testament to what's possible.

Leah:

I also feel like it balances something really essential that women have not been given permission for, which is to discover their own desire and their own bodies, their erotic bodies, to discover what turns them on, what makes them press the accelerator, what makes them press the brakes, for them to have self knowledge so that their lovers can win with them. Otherwise, it's like we're kind of taught that men are the ones who want it, so they must be the ones who know how to do it. Meanwhile, no one learns how to do it. And women are like, here. You figure it out. And everyone's just kind of lost not really knowing what gets us plugged in. And so when women take, I'll use your language, which I really love, terry is take responsibility for their own pleasure. Then this playground of discovery gets to exist. The pressure kind of goes down the dial on pressure and obligation. Those, those get switched off, and then you get to be in this adult playground and, um, I hope that people, that women are discovering that younger and younger, though it does seem to be a theme that women turn to towards, turn towards this and their own bodies at around mid age. I think perimenopause may have something to do with it. I think, um, we get to a point where like, okay, we've had our kids, we're in our careers, we're headed towards the, another phase in our life, which kind of feels like the, some of the closing chapters. So we get to go, there's gotta be something more to sex and I'll be damned if I don't find out what it is. And so this is often a place where people do get divorced. In fact, they say that divorce rates are sort of highest as women go through menopause. A lot of women divorce in menopause. Uh, so I find all of this sort of ironic and interesting. Um, yeah. So my, I there's what is there a question in there? I guess the question is, is what do you want people to know? What's your message now to our audience? What do you think is really important? Are there steps that you have figured out that other people could follow that could give them the same breakthroughs that the two of you have discovered?

zeke & terri:

Well, I think one Zeke has said this, um, a couple of times in convers. With other people is divorcing ourselves from the relationship really takes the, seeing the relationship as a, a joint entity. It's something that is for us to create mold, work on and invest in. Um, we did not invest in our relationship as we, as our, you know, I've worked, um, he stayed home. Between the kids, the, the pressure to succeed in the Silicon Valley, um, all those things, we didn't, we didn't invest in ourselves. We didn't invest in, in our relationship. So if we had done that, if we'd had the awareness, if we'd read the book, the new I do, then we would have greater, we would've had greater awareness before we entered into a marriage to understand what we both wanted and what we were willing to commit to in, in the relationship. One of the things in building intimacy and then getting past the, the, the, the divisive chasm that happens when we're so busy dealing with all of the internal and external pressures is we now do weekly check-ins. So this was something that I discovered. It's probably based on some Gottman stuff and other things. So we try to do weekly check-ins so that we don't get too far apart, um, where, you know, we sit down and we ask each other. Is there something, uh, I can do to make you feel more loved and more comfortable right now? And so that sets it. And then we ask questions, you know, is there something that I did to inadvertently hurt you this week? And, you know, we talked about repairing that so that that doesn't get too far, we don't get too far in the weeds. Um, and away from each other. How was our sex life this week? We, you know, we asked that question and I love that the answer is either, oh my God, the kids have gotten in the way, or work has gotten in the way, or it's fantastic. Um, those are, I mean, those are the binaries. Um, what do you have coming up this next week? That's, you know, is there anything stressful and is there anything that I can do to alleviate that stress? How did I make you feel loved this week? So in those moments when, you know, those weeks where, you know, the Zeke and Terry Adventures thing, oh my god, total slog. Um, and you know, we're both doing things that are like outside of our comfort zone and it's hard and we're not seeing the results that we want. This helps us come together and remember, remind our, remind ourselves why we are together. The other thing is in investing in the relationship, investing in ourselves, doing our work. Um, I am all about dismantling the patriarchal expectations placed on girls and women, which is really hard and it actually puts, I think, very difficult, um, expectations and dynamics on, I'm gonna say cis head, couple, you know, heterosexual couples. And, um, so having both parties recognize the expectations that are both toxic to men and to women, and how we, neither of us win in relationships under patriarchy. I think having awareness around that is, um, important. And then finally finding a way to make sex fun. Um, there was, as I was doing research from my book, and I used to have a podcast as well, I interviewed Dr. Jess Silverman out of Seattle, and she talked about re redefining what sex is. You know, sex is, especially as our bodies age and our thing, our bodies behave differently, whether it's erectile dysfunction or vaginal dryness or, um, you know, difficulty orgasming or changing in orgasms. Redefining what sex is, um, not just for those of us who are in midlife, but at a younger age, so that as you go through your sexual life, it's not just about intercourse or it's just not about just one thing. It's really a whole body experience experience. So I think a, a, a suggestion is definitely for women to own their pleasure, play with toys, watch stuff, read stuff, and not feel the shame that, um, the puritanical shame that tends to be placed on a lot of us women. Which is where I really struggled because up until the time that we got married, I was super, I was sexually active, had a great time, knew exactly what did I want, who I wanted it from, and how to get it. But when we got married, I coupled the idea of love and sex together and pleasure and those two things did not meet up for me.

Leah:

Hmm.

zeke & terri:

it took until I was 51 to be able to go, these two things can exist. Um, uh,'cause I mean, at the age of 16, I was like, if it's not fun, you know, I'm not in it. Um, and, but I wasn't really in love until, you know, 25, 26 when we got married. And so. It took a long time for me to see that those two things could coexist and you could, I could love Zeke and I could have really great sex with him, and those were not in conflict.

Willow:

I, I love the, first of all, I wanna highlight the weekly check-in. Like what a huge game changer for any relationship, any intimate relationship that you're involved in, in your life. I think those questions that you are asking each other each week are really, really valuable. So, um, go back and take notes of those audience.'cause those were great. And then yeah, really starting to, I mean, you know separate out love and sex so that you can like see the difference so that you can unify them back together once again. Really, really powerful and a such an internal practice and process too, uh, to figure out inside of yourself, but then also to share with your partner. What was your experience with that, Zeke? Like the, the love versus the sex and, and you know, kind of, were they always in union for you? Was it, was it a similar process of finding union within

zeke & terri:

I, I'm, I'm, I'm probably gonna just, uh, claim that I didn't quite realize you can sift those things apart and, and my 26-year-old self got married and figured that was all in the same bucket. And that was something that I hadn't quite sorted out. Um, what I will say in terms of, uh, uh, uh, a list of things or a step process for going through this: one, as we should all not ever expect anything to stay the same. And so look for making changes. And again, that doesn't mean that you are then not, not married and divorced and that you're no longer have any relationship, but you can change the relationship. And the best way to do that is to say, how I need to change this. I think we need to change this relationship. How do you wanna change it? Or how what? What would you like to do? And try and work together to make changes that everyone wants. Or, Hey, let's open up this one area and let's explore and figure out how to make changes. Because I'd like it to be better. I think you'd like it to be better and let's have a better relationship. And whether that's communication or sex or whatever. Um, and that's the probably the one thing that allowed Terry to talk me into doing a YouTube channel, a Zeke and Terry's adventures, was to show people that at 50 55 you can go out and go do things. And the the one confirming thing from that, that we found is when we're out doing our travels, we'll find some. 20-year-old working at a business somewhere where we're gonna go do something, you know, an adventure. And we tell them we got this channel, and they go, oh, that's great. I should tell my parents about that. So, yeah. So you can sticker because parents, yeah, their parents are sitting at home not doing anything

Leah:

Right.

Willow:

Yeah. Yeah.

zeke & terri:

expectancies hopefully continue to get longer. Um, and we are gonna have more time to do that at the same time. We're not encouraging folks to go start a YouTube channel and do this full time, but you should find opportunities to do things that you're not gonna be able to do in 10 years, uh, because I'm already can't do what I wanted to do 10 years ago. Um, but I don't wanna get to 65 at the retirement age and then go, wow, I wish I would've.

Willow:

I

zeke & terri:

I do my, my big thing is bike rides. I do two, two week long bike rides around the world with, uh, some friends. And we come back and we'll be at something and we'll tell them about a trip that we just did. And every time someone will say, I, I'm gonna do that someday.

Leah:

Right.

zeke & terri:

all four of us look at'em and go, there is no someday.

Leah:

There is no, yeah. Get it done now. I feel

Willow:

is someday. Yeah. I mean, and, and that adventurous spirit totally translates into your sex life. Like after you get out doing something you didn't think you could do or you didn't know was possible, you're super charged. I

Leah:

Or you were putting off and decided to, yeah. Not put it off anymore. Which leads me to another question, because I imagine there are people listening who feel inspired by your weekly check-in. But also feel terrified. Because when you aren't showing up and your sex life has been in the dumps for months, weeks, years, and you know those questions are arising and you're sort of afraid of your partner's answer or you know, you're dropping the ball and it's been really hard to figure out how to pick it up. I can see like, why couples go into avoidance. Like, I don't wanna answer these hard questions, I don't wanna confront on how this area of our life isn't working. I just, I just wanna like, do one of these. And those of you who are listening, I'm kind of shrieking back. Like, I don't wanna deal, I don't wanna deal. You know, so we go into avoidance and I'm just wondering how, what's your advice for people who are sort of stuck at that place to break that up and, and move forward anyways.

zeke & terri:

It's okay, Terry. I'm. Lemme lemme.

Willow:

Take it. Take it.

zeke & terri:

So, yeah, I'm

Leah:

curious to see what your answers can be. So the answer

zeke & terri:

is, I'm the avoidant one and Terry's love languages. No, no, no. It's

Leah:

our attachment styles. Attachment style. I'm, I'm anxious. He's avoidant.

zeke & terri:

Yeah. And so I'm the one who, when things get rough, get busy, or whatever. I, I get focused on the task at hand, and so we need to, uh, make dinner. We need to do this. I gotta do the laundry. I, you know, all those things. And so I like to, you know, accomplish something and, and, and I need to start to reframe my brain. Uh, I need to continue to reframe my brain. It's not all the way there yet to, a checklist is to make Terry feel comfortable. And once I make Terry feel comfortable and, and confident in our relationship, then uh things are going to happen and that's, that tension goes away. That anxiety goes away. So, and I'm just going say it is hard. Um, but what what we've done is we've built up through, through this whole process, and by the way, we, it's, it, every day is hard. We were in an, we were in kind of a disagreement for about two weeks. We didn't have sex for like two, two and a half weeks, which is a long time for us now. And, um, I can feel it in the relationship. I can feel the tension, I can feel the, the distance. Um, but the trust we, we've built up trust, so even if I know, maybe I screwed up on something. That we haven't cleaned up during the week and asking the question, did I do something to inadvertently hurt you this week? he he always says, no, I can't think of anything. And generally if we haven't already dealt with it, I might might have something. But, but wanting so much, having the desire to have an amazing relationship means you have to set aside that fear and know that ha, having that honest conversation is worth, it's, it's like going and doing a workout. It's like, oh, I gotta, I have to put my, my clothes on. I need to get to the gym. I need to go do this. I hate the glute and the, the AB stuff, but I know that in the short term and long term, it's going to be worthwhile. And I see it as the same way. There is always a hesitancy because I'm like, oh God, why, what if I screwed up? And it's like, well, the result of not addressing it is that the, the issues that come from that are far worse than potentially the small little thing that's gonna come up. And if we continue to avoid, avoid, avoid, the things get bigger and bigger. Um, and there's something that's still happening in our life that ends up being something that Zeke avoids until, you know, it can be small at the beginning, and then he avoids it so long it actually creates a bigger problem. So the, so that, you know, are you asking about, oh, the shrinking Leah, you know, trying to avoid it. It's just like. How bad could it possibly be? You know, asking yourself the question, how bad could it possibly be to actually face this? And what if I don't? How bad is that gonna be? And we all, we all know it's gonna be 10 times worse than a thousand, a thousand times worse than if we actually face it.'cause we make in our minds something, you know, things so much worse than they are. And also, if there's shame around it, I mean, to bring up Brene Brown and all of her work around shame, you know, shame exists in the dark. And so if we feel ashamed or concerned about something. If we can't bring it up with our partner who we're supposed to have this loving and trusting relationship with, then what do we really have in a relationship?

Leah:

Yeah, I think you said a lot of really beautiful, beautiful answers. Um, one is, yeah, I heard the word trust, and I think sometimes we have to remember that even if trust has been a little distorted in our relationship, this is the person we chose to do life with. We need to lean into trust. We need to lean into the emotional capital that does exist from having been together for a very long time and trust that we can be vulnerable even if it's uncomfortable, especially'cause it's gonna be uncomfortable when we've been avoiding something. Lean into when we do hard things. Great things happen, and sometimes we have to rip off the bandaid and go through whatever days, weeks, or months of discomfort it might require to heal that which has been avoided. But to know that the quality of your life increases, having done those pieces of work and the closeness that happens from addressing conflict and, and it's like my husband always tells me, you know, we've got a problem. We tend to face it this way, like we tend to face each other. And in that facing of each other, like the conflict is like with each other, but if we turn towards the conflict so that we're on, like we may be, but we're in partnership with that conflict. We're not against each other in the conflict. I think there's something really powerful about, like you said earlier, shifting our intention. When it comes to like navigating these hard things so that we're intentional and, and then I think other, also being generous with our partner I think is also something that's really helpful. Like, I think being generous with our assumptions that it's not that they're avoiding us, that they're actually avoiding something inside of them. That may be tender. And if we can kind of be, hold that with some sacredness, um, breakthroughs are much more possible. And I think the other thing that happens when you do that is it will surprise you that processing could be pretty fast. Like it doesn't have to turn into this long anguish field process. You know, like when you just sometimes it can be resolved really fast. Was that ever your guys' experience that things were process more quickly than you could have imagined?

zeke & terri:

Yeah, I think you just hit you. You hit so many beautiful things. One, you know, we need to remember, we can do the hard things. We've done them before. We have a track record, we can do it again. Um, but yeah, so I love the generosity and the grace, um, concept because I, I'm imagining as we sit on the couch and it's just the two of us, we, you know, we're holding each other's hands going, you know, the there's something I can do to make you feel more loved and more comfortable right now. And that closeness creates a level of love and vulner, it creates this little bubble, essentially. So when you know, and having the pattern of, we know these, these questions are coming and there's some, there's some, it's nice that there's some familiarity in that because it, they're no surprises. What might come out of their mouth might be a surprise, but to ask the question, I know that when he comes in, he goes, yeah, you know, I'll say whatever it is, and then. I'll feel him just kind of tense a little bit when he says, well, you know, I did it for this reason and I'm really sorry about that. And I said, you know, I totally understand. And I do feel a shifting into that side by side versus the, the forward contentious, um, um, you know, positioning on that. And because I want so much for him to feel good and comfortable for our relationship to succeed, it helps soften everything out instead of like, you did this and you did that, and he'll be like. I really screwed up on that. I'm, you know, I'm sorry, and then I can be there. And she's like, yeah, you know, let's talk through it. Or what, what, whatever. And it does keep things from getting big and blown out of proportion, especially since, you know, we have such a history, you know, knowing each other for 45 years, you know, married at this point for almost 30. Um, there's a lot of garbage in our history that we were magic. We do not understand how we were able to close the door on like 98% of it. Um, and not drag it forward into this new relationship. Um, there's, there's a lot of stuff there and I know a lot of, if we hadn't done the work prior to five years ago. There's stuff that would come up every single time and it would be like, oh, we have this habit, we have this history. I know this is gonna end up going in this ugly direction. And, but by dealing with it in that moment, we're able to, to keep it small. And I'm hoping that that's allows us to rewire our nervous systems to go, this is a safe place. We can trust this. It is not going to ever go back to the way that it was. Because every morning, you know, we have, we commit to each other every day. You know, this is part of what we learned from the new I do, um, is we know, um, we are not stuck in this relationship. We are choosing to be in this relationship. And, um, if we close the door, once we can close, we can close the door again. And so every day it's like. Good morning. I love you. Kiss each other. And that is our, our morning commitment to say, we're in this again for another day. We're in this again for, for another day. And that is something that is incr. I don't think he, I don't think Zeke realized until recently, just how important that is to me with my anxious attachment style for him to commit to me every day.'cause I question everything constantly. Um, to know that yep, he's in it for another day. Like I'm in it'cause I'm stubborn as I'll get out. But you know, he does not need that reassurance. I need that reassurance.

Leah:

Uh, that's really helpful. Yeah. I had friends who every day would wake up and go, I marry you again today.

zeke & terri:

Oh,

Leah:

You know, so I love this. I do you every day.

zeke & terri:

well I would like us to be doing each other every day, but life gets in the of that.

Willow:

I love that. This book sounds great. I think everyone needs to pick up this the New I do who's, who's the author?

zeke & terri:

I don't know. It's just called The New Idea. And it just talks about, I think six or eight different ways that you can go into a marriage and how to be thoughtful about it, whether you're doing it for kids, which means, you know, you have a timeline of like 18 to 20 years. Um, one's gonna be for financial, one's gonna be for companionship one's. I don't remember all of'em, but it was just called the the new I do. It's a book. I wish that we had had and had, I don't know if we would've had the awareness at 25, 26, but to go to, to be very intentional going into it. The, the Erin Levine has a company called Hello Divorce, where she's really trying very hard to make it easier for couples to decouple. And she talks often about how getting married is one of the most, um, complicated financial. Transactions you can enter. We go into it thinking it's just all about love, not realizing everything else that goes, goes along with it. So in thinking about getting married, it's not, oh, I love you and I wanna spend the rest of, it's like there is so much more that you have to be thinking about when you decide to spend the rest of your, or spend a period of time of your life together, depending upon what it is that you're looking for.

Willow:

Right. Right. Okay. Now I know we're coming to the end of our time together, and one thing that I really wanna hear is, did you guys ever go down the Tantric path? Totally shifting. It's been a lovely conversation around how to hold relationship in light, but let's talk about the sex a little more.

zeke & terri:

Yeah, no, we haven't done anything. I mean, we tried the toys, we tried, um, I invested in a company called Afterglow, so, which is porn, uh, designed by women for women. So. We tried various different types of that. We, um, tried various different,'cause we never did the Tantric stuff. We did go to a sex club in San Francisco once. It was a horrifying experience and, um. Oh, I, I have to tell you, so we, you know, we get it. What I'd love to see, you know, we got a hotel room in San Francisco, had a couple cocktails. We go, we're standing in line to, to go in and what I'd love to see was the diversity of the people outside. It was all ages, all skin colors, um, all body, body types. I thought. I like this. Um, we go inside and we're kind of walking around. The place is just janky. It's skanky. It is not. It's like this is gross. This is, I will pay a lot more money for something that is much more luxurious than this.

Leah:

Yeah.

zeke & terri:

There was this one guy, you know, we're kind of checking things out and there's nothing, the, the two of us going in there together was actually really good for our relationship'cause it

Willow:

That's adventurous.

zeke & terri:

against everybody. You know? It's just like we, we will be able to laugh or cry about this if this is like whatever the experience. There was this older white guy walking around in tennis shoes and white knee socks with sports socks walking around with his clothes. Butt naked, walking around and I was like, I am not sitting down in any chair or at any surface in here. We did one loop and it was like, Nope. And you know, out, out, out we went. So we've tried that. We tried that.

Willow:

so, so basically you guys still have a whole Tantric journey ahead of you. You have

zeke & terri:

I just made note,

Leah:

If they

zeke & terri:

made note of that. It'll be on Secret Adventures. No.

Willow:

Great. Love it.

Leah:

Yeah. Cool. Well this has been such a delight. You're both such an inspiration. I'm reaching my 10 year wedding anniversary in the next year and we plan on renewing our vows and I think before we do, we will read the new I do to be as intentional as you all heading into a new, uh, sunrise together. And, um. Yeah. Any parting thoughts that you might have for our audience and how can people find you?

zeke & terri:

I'd love it if you have any midlife women, uh, listeners to, if they're wondering about who they are and what they want next. There is a chapter on sex and relationships in my book, piloting Your Life. It's called Piloting Yout Life because, um, one of my hobbies is flying helicopters and a commercially rated helicopter pilot. So all my brandings around aviation. Um, but yeah, you can follow our Travel Adventures, life Adventures. Our tagline is navigating our lives and the world mostly together.'cause we have our solo trips. So you can find us at www.zekeandterri.com or Zeke and Terry Adventures on all of the, all of the platforms. Um, and my, my focus is generally on women, so it was just like women, you know, own your life, own your body without other people's expectations. Ask for what you want, give yourself what you want need, and not only will you feel more comfortable in your self, in your body, but you'll feel in your sexuality, but you will feel more comfortable with a partner if you so choose. Most of that, all of that is found on, uh, www.pilotingyourlife.com as well as www.pilotingyourliferetreats.com. Oh yeah. I'm launching a, a new retreat ecosystem for

Leah:

Cool. I love this and I love that you're helping people reimagine second chances, not only the second chance you can give yourself, but a second chance you can give a lover. Um, you're, we're really walking away from this episode with a lot of hope. Thank you for that.

Willow:

Thank you so much. So great to connect with you both and um, we'll see you very soon.

Leah:

All right. You guys know it's not the end of the show. You know what's up next, the dish, so please stay tuned.

Announcer:

Now our favorite part, the dish.

Willow:

.Can recap those questions that they were asking

Leah:

You know, I actually have, yeah, I have specifically,'cause I think I have the same ones.

Willow:

Oh, okay.

Leah:

and I often give them to couples and Matt and I did them for a while. Uh, let me just find them for a minute. Okay, Weekly check-in ritual for couples: What are you happy about? What helped you to feel loved and connected this week? What are you afraid to tell me? What requests do you have to make our relationship more fulfilling for you? What will support you to feel loved this week? And is there anything left unsaid? And one of the things that I noticed was maybe different from those questions from what they mentioned is how was our sex life this week? And then how can we

Willow:

forget to add

Leah:

even better this week?

Willow:

Yeah. Yeah, I think those are all great questions and I think it's a, um, really important thing that all couples could start to do. And yeah, it is a little bit of like unpacking a can of worms, I'm sure at first. But over time, um, it's totally gonna, it's that 1% change. You know, if you're going in a certain direction, you do 1% change, it's gonna start taking you in a totally different direction. So,

Leah:

Yeah, like even 1% improvement has impact. I think that's really, uh, a cool thing just to let sink in. Uh, that that 1% even matters. And chances are you can do even better than 1%.

Willow:

absolutely. For sure. With these questions, I think you're, you're rocking at least a, a 30 or a 50% change.

Leah:

I think too, like it's kind of interesting from like the parent child perspective. Like I could see how their kids or, or a similar couple and their kids, like how you could kind of be pissed off at your parents. Like, look, I'm sick of your rollercoaster. Like. God dammit. You know, like you could have some resentment there. But then when I think about, wow, when your parents really make the turn and they turn towards each other and they, they get us, they give each other a second chance, and it's better than ever how that must renew your faith in love. You know, like it's a really, it it really is like a beautiful modeling, even though I'm sure, um, it could be frustrating at first, right? You gotta, like, we all, we all are recovering from our childhood. No one does

Willow:

parents, the first relationship.

Leah:

Had parents who were really in love and modeled something really beautiful, that's no guarantee that their kids are gonna have the same experience.

Willow:

right.

Leah:

Yeah. So it's all up to everyone.

Willow:

We all gonna find our way and work together. And I love the, I love the idea of just being generous with your partner. You know, not assuming that they are pitted against you, but that there might be something going on inside of them that they are not even aware of. That they could use some support with and maybe some inquiry around.

Leah:

And additionally, I love, um, that people are asking these kinds of questions, that they want to be more intentional. That they're, that they're taking a look at something and going, wait a minute, there may be another perspective here. There may be a mindset shift here. Like it's really encouraging. To see more and more people being curious about becoming more conscious and, um, wanting to love better.

Willow:

Hallelujah to that. Let's keep it happening. All right, everyone sending you so much love.

Leah:

so much love.

Willow:

Ciao.

Leah:

I.

Announcer:

Thanks for tuning in. This episode was hosted by Tantric Sex Master Coach and positive psychology facilitator, Leah Piper, as well as by Chinese and Functional Medicine doctor and Taoist Taxology teacher, Dr. Willow Brown. Don't forget your comments, like subscribes and suggestions matter. Let's realize this new world together.

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Dr. Willow Brown

Host
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Leah Piper

Host
Contributor

Zeke and Terri Mead

Guest