Darshana Avila: When Therapy Isn't Enough-What to Do When You've Done the Work & Still Feel Shut Down | #182

What If Pleasure Was Never the Problem, You Were Just Never Taught How to Receive It? Most of us learned about sex from silence, shame, or a five-minute health class that left out everything that actually matters. We learned to perform. To go along. To look at the clock. And somewhere in all that conditioning, we stopped trusting our own bodies. Darshana Avila has spent decades helping people find their way back.A trauma-informed somatic educator, sexological body worker, and Netflix's Sex, Love & Goop featured sexpert, Darshana works at the intersection of erotic wholeness, nervous system healing, and embodied intimacy. Her work is rigorous, sacred, and deeply practical. When you hear what she has to say, you will not look at your relationship to pleasure the same way again. This episode of Sex Reimagined is one you will want to sit with slowly. 

EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS

• Darshana redefines eroticism as life force energy, not just sex, and explains why treating sexuality as a separate compartment from the rest of your life is exactly what keeps so many people stuck.
• She walks through her four-phase approach to somatic sexual healing, including why nervous system regulation comes first, and what becomes possible once the body finally feels safe enough to receive.
• We get into the touch vocabulary most of us were never given, and how learning what you actually like, in specific, sensory detail, is the real foundation of consent, communication, and genuine intimacy.
• Darshana names the self-betrayal underneath people-pleasing in intimate relationships, and traces the direct line from suppressing your desires in bed to losing your voice everywhere else in your life.
• She shares exactly how to bring new desires to a partner without it landing as criticism, including why the words matter less than the energy underneath them, and what shared vulnerability actually looks like in practice.
• Behind the scenes of Sex, Love & Goop: Darshana describes the moment on camera when she stopped a session, asked her client if she wanted to put her cl

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Transcript

Introduction to Today's Guest

Willow 1:06

You may recognize today's guest from Netflix's Sex, love, and Goop. Darna Avila stands at the intersection of trauma, truth and erotic power, helping people reclaim pleasure as a path to self actualization. You are going to love today's guest, and you are here with Leah Piper and myself, Dr. Willow Brown of the Sex Reimagined Podcast. Thank you so much for all your amazing likes, shares, and subscribes. They really support the show and get the word out.

Leah 1:40

Okay. You guys, this interview is so good, so please tune in, turn on, and fall in love with Darshana.

Announcer 1:48

Welcome to the Sex Reimagined Podcast, where sex is shame-free and pleasure forward. Let's get into the show.

Willow 1:57

So tell us how you got started with this work, as I know you've been doing it for decades now, and, um, what was sort of the, the moment in your life where you were like, I really need to help people with their sexuality? Like this is an issue.

Integrating Spirituality and Sexuality

Darshana 2:14

You know, it's, it's funny because that's not how it went. It was way more born out of my personal explorations and the chapter of my life where I looked around, I, I had done everything the way our mainstream script would indicate, uh, uh, one should do success. So I built a corporate career and I got married and I bought a home, and it was like marching along until it wasn't. Things looked good on the outside and they didn't feel nearly as good on the inside. And I separated from the marriage. That was the first piece while amidst a really big spiritual awakening and the marriage ended and I started dating or and fucking around and finding out as it were, I had a sexual awakening where I realized that there was so much I didn't know. I didn't know about myself sexually and about what intimacy could be. And so. The rest of the trappings of that, you know, NLY successful life stopped fitting and it was just kind of like something that was too tight that I needed to get out of. And so I quit the corporate job. And in the beauty and the, I say I was blessed with the gift of my own ignorance and naivety at the time that I was like, oh, I'll, I'm just gonna become a coach. You know, like just no big, like I'm gonna become a coach and I'll probably help other corporate types have more fulfilling spiritual lives because that. That seemed to track with what was going on for me. I was like, I, I could, if I could do this for myself, like maybe I could help other people. But life really kept showing me that sexuality was the focus. And much like in my personal journey, it was all born of a desire to feel sex and spirit integrated. That's really the essence of, of what I do. Even though I've taken it in a more secular direction and my body of work if you look at it on the surface, you may not see it as spiritual practice, and yet for me it is deeply that and for many of my clients as well. And that's a long story short answer to, to how I got here.

Leah 4:21

Well, I think that's probably something that really resonates with a lot of people who are in sort of the sacred sexuality sphere of the sexuality, um, you know, niche. So I'm curious, what do you bring the spiritual elements to your work, um, as a sexuality educator and body worker? Can you say a little bit about that? How that, how that intersects?

Understanding Erotic Wholeness

Darshana 4:45

What your mention of sacred sexuality, it's very on point because in the early days it was Tantra that, that was informing a lot of my explorations and it was also coming into contact with, shall we say, some of the shadows and the underbelly of different communities and and practices that really steered me in the direction of a more secular, trauma informed and justice oriented way of holding my practice. And so. This is deeply sacred work for me. Like that, that that has never changed. Whether or not I am chanting mantras or, or delivering, you know, a very more academically oriented or politically slanted like, you know, teaching on something like it's sacred work because our bodies are sacred. Our sex is sacred. We are sacred. And the way that it shows up as something spiritual, I think is in. What goes on for my clients and my students when they really inhabit themselves in a more unfettered way than they ever have before, and they get in touch with their own sacredness and they can experience altered states of consciousness or expanded perceptions about who they are and how they get to be and what love and intimacy and sex can look like. I don't really know what is more spiritual than that. You know, it's not about some, some figurehead on high so much as really tapping into the sacredness within all of us and within our relating, and that's something that I feel very blessed to get to help facilitate and guide on a regular basis.

Willow 6:24

Oh one, one of the things that you speak to is erotic wholeness, and it is, I feel like that's kind of what you're, what you're describing right now, and I'm just so curious, like how, how do you see this erotic wholeness as different from a lot of people's ideas about what sex intimacy and relationship coaching is. Like, a lot of people hear, oh, you know, a love coach or a relationship coach, and they may not have sort of the, the depth of understanding that you're speaking to right now. So how would you kind of like, you know, give them a little bit more deeper understanding?

Challenges in Sexual Relationships

Darshana 7:03

Yeah. Thank you for that question. Yeah. My body of work, erotic wholeness, I, I mean, it's on me that I've chosen a name that that really requires some explanation, but that's part of the fun of it. The invitation, first of all, is to expand your definition of what eroticism is like right here, right now. Many of us hear that word and associate it very exclusively with sex and, and perhaps even a very like salacious, pornographic form of sexuality. But the definition that I'm going by draws from life force energy, vitality, creativity as how we understand eroticism, and so that aliveness channels into our sex, but it's also present. Anywhere that our passion is anywhere that we are building creative and caring, tending. And so your emotions and sensations, your relationships, uh, your activism, your art, your parenting, your, your organizing, that is a, a channel for your erotic energy, just as surely as sex is. And in the early days of, of my explorations and my practice, everything was super sex centric. And I started recognizing both in myself and my clients how that was limiting us. And, and it was, even it, it's like you're looking at a slice of the pie, not the whole. It, it, so I, I, again, like you heard me use an example earlier of like the things that feel tight and no longer fit. I am one who will be like, okay, I'm busting outta here. And so like, that was yet another moment. It's like we're gonna bust out of the, like just talking about sex mode, even though. S that is a lot of what people seek me out for, right? Like they, they, they want a transformation in how they inhabit their bodies, how they show up in their sex life, their access to pleasure, their intimacy skills. But then what goes on is it feeds into all these different areas. And the wholeness piece of this is a nod to, we have such a strong acculturation to viewing ourselves as broken. Fragmented less than, and the wholeness is, is an invitation to really see all the parts of ourselves as necessary and beautiful, including the parts that we may not like, including the parts that we may not have taken the time to get to know, and that we are our truest, most authentic, most resource self. When instead of pushing apart and compartmentalizing, we're actually inviting. All of those parts of ourselves into the mix. And then we bring our discernment, right? Like I, I mean, and this has ma become far more popular since like Internal Family systems really took off IFS or parts work, which very much informs my practice. And I was introduced to parts work before I was introduced to IFS through, through some other schools and of thought and what have you. So, a lot of this has to do with getting into our shadowy self and getting into our protective strategies and saying, what's actually going on here? And is this me allowing the, the fullness of my eroticism, my potential, my power to manifest itself? Or am I playing small, playing safe? You know, stories that are very familiar. I'm sure to anybody listening.

Willow 10:32

I, I mean, I love that you're bringing, that you integrate the, the somatic parts work, right? Because there's that, we always say the issues are in the tissues, and there's all these places like inside of our body where we're holding onto the resistance, the doubt, the fear, and then there's places in our body that just wanna break out of the box. You know, they wanna expand, evolve, they wanna be in rapture and joy and bliss. And so how do we get all those places onto the same page? So, um, this whole concept of erotic wholeness and, and really even just like seeing eroticism more as like life force energy and qi and vitality and longevity. You know, I, I'm, I'm right there with ya. Sisa, high fives to all that shit.

Leah 11:18

We're ba we're, we're very much speaking the same language. Um, uh, yeah, I think, I think there's, uh, so much to unpack here because there's so many areas where people are seeking support from being in a long-term relationship where the sexual energy is flatlined and they don't know how to bring the spark back. They love each other deeply, but like they're not having sex. And then you've got people who've had sexual trauma or cultural trauma or something that inhibits them from, uh, being able to attract, I don't know if it's the love in their life or the sexuality or the sex that they want or whatever sort of suppresses the part of them that says, I don't get to have it. I'm not allowed to have it. Um. And, and then you just have people that feel like they're struggling with sexual dysfunction, you know, they come too fast or they don't come at all, or they can't get hard, or they can't, like everything hurts inside, you know? And so then you have that physiological pain. So I'm kind of curious, what are the main doors that people are walking through when they come to work with you?

Darshana 12:26

Pretty much everything you just named

Leah 12:28

Okay.

Darshana's Approach to Healing

Darshana 12:29

The, the caveat being that pre presently in my practice, I am mostly supporting female bodied folks. Uh, so I occasionally work with male bodied folks, but usually it's when they are half of a couple that is coming to see me. Um, and so less about erectile dysfunction or, or premature Ejaculation these days and more about, you mentioned pain, you mentioned trauma. That might be a direct overt trauma that someone has experienced that might also be more cultural or developmental trauma, which is the misogyny and the patriarchy and capitalism and white supremacy and, and, and like these compounding systems of oppression that make up our dominant culture weigh heavily on us. And, and that, that phrase the issues or in the tissues like yes, because the vast majority of the people who are coming to me have spent time in therapy and they are not necessarily new to their work, and it's taken them as far as it could. And I've had moments like that in my journey. You know, I'm somebody who has not just been on a, a path of spiritual seeking, but personal growth, personal development, healing, like, you know, whatever name you wanna call it by. And there are times, there are seasons when talking about it and, and going through a more cognitive mental process can be really, really helpful. And telling our stories and being witnessed compassionately, like all of that has its place. And then, and you. And then,

Leah 14:03

you right?

Darshana 14:04

it kind of, it's like, wait, huh, stop. Wait, what's going on here? I, I hit a wall, I hit a plateau. Something else is needed. And that's usually where I'm coming in or where people are coming to me, which is because I do very hands on, hands in work like my, my tongue in cheek way of introducing myself when somebody's like, what do you do? And I actually did this at a party last night and it kind of backfired. It usually doesn't.

Leah 14:27

Uh huh.

Darshana 14:29

Because I'm usually a good read about who can I whip this one out for?

Willow 14:32

can I say

Leah 14:32

right. Right. Right.

Darshana 14:34

I say is I'm a professional pussy stroker, and, and usually it's like, wait, what? I actually hear what I think I heard. It's like, yes. Um, because my work sits at the intersection of as a sexological body work, or I'm doing hands on, hands in explorations with my clients, and we welcome pleasure and we welcome arousal, and it's worked with in a really beautiful, sacred way with a lot of professionalism and a lot of integrity. That's a rare combination, right? I mean, really like what, what experience do we have where we can walk in to a, a container where we get to open ourselves up to a, a pretty like unprecedented extent in terms of our erotic expression and in terms of our sexual response. But it's not necessarily reciprocal like that's, it's either medical or it's like a partnered exchange. And this is either in both.

Willow 15:34

right. Well, I'm so curious, like what percentage of the, of the yoni owners pussy owners that you work with, um, go to, like, how, how, how many of them are stay in more of a therapeutic, um, experience or, and then how many of them actually take themselves to eroticism while, while they're in session and while they're working with you? Say that again.

Leah 15:59

Yeah.

Willow 16:01

With you, which also leads me to a second layer of this question, which is like, you know, you are weaving in basically all aspects of what it means to be a human, spiritual, physical, emotional, psychological, sexual, right? And so I'm imagining that like when somebody comes to you, they're not just coming in for a single session. I mean, maybe sometimes there, but they probably have like a full journey with you. So I'm curious from also like an entrepreneurial perspective, like what is your package? What is your deal? How long do you work with people? And then like, you know, do they kind of come in and it's more therapeutic and then over time they start to open up their eroticism more? Or what's the sort of typical journey that you see women go through?

Darshana 16:44

Yeah. Thank you for that. And you're a hundred percent right that this is not a one and done experience. Um, so either I work in intensive formats because. Thanks to Netflix, thanks to having a, a broader platform, I have clients literally have flown from the other side of the globe to spend a few days with me or, or people who are in different states. For those who are local, I, I'm in Oakland, California, the San Francisco Bay area. Um, I offer the, a possibility of working with me over an arc of time where we have shorter sessions usually at an every other week cadence for three months minimum. And so it, it, it's either three days full on minimum or three months at a paced out cadence. And, and that's something that I've honed over time, you know, in the early days, like it's a lot of, because this is something. There are other sexological body workers in the world. There are many other somatic experiencing practitioners. So some of the, the modalities that I'm certified in, other people are practicing. And it continues to be that the way I practice and my body of work is, is unique even among people that overlap with me in certain ways. And again, in the same way that I went from a focus on sex to a focus on eroticism over time and and paying attention to what was going on. The same thing has happened with the way that I work and the journey that I take people through. And it's a four phase journey, and the first phase is very much about relationship building and nervous system regulation. So yes. When you say, does it start out a little more therapeutic? To some extent, and that has a lot to do with who's in the room and, and what do they need. Everybody needs some nervous system tending some. With really complex trauma histories, more so and so that portion can take a significantly longer time. And that's, that would be the determining factor. Like if someone's like, Hey, I live in, you know, Kalamazoo and I wanna come do an immersion with you. Like, I gotta get a sense of what they're actually working with and what their intentions are to know whether or not three days, four days, like full on, is actually gonna be of service or not. Um. But people who have the option of seeing me for a longer arc, like I have some clients who have been with me for years, and that doesn't mean that they're necessarily coming in every week or every other week, but it means that we do a chapter and then they go off and, and they live that, that experience and then it's like, okay, next level. Like, I'm ready. Like I have, I have several clients right now actively in my practice that that's the reality. Like we worked together a year ago, had some space, oh okay back for the next

Leah 19:27

Yeah.

Darshana 19:28

lot of that has to do with it. It takes the time that it takes for our nervous systems to recalibrate for the psychological components of what we've lived through to, to kind of shape themselves in a new way or for us to live with them in a different quality of relationship. So once that phase is tended to. Then we move on to things that are more, you could say, like the foundation of somatics and the foundation of what it is to really embody yourself. How do you cultivate presence enough to track what's going on? Because if you can't do that. There's no way that you're gonna ever be able to answer or advocate for what you want, what you like, what you don't, which is really the, the underlying principle of so much of this, especially when we're talking about the fact that I mostly am supporting women and femmes like. We don't have the, the lived experience much of the time of ever really explored that as the central aspect of our sexuality. We understand ourselves as the object of another person's pleasure because that's what the dominant cultural script teaches us. So we people please the fuck out of our intimate lives Sometimes even thinking that it's like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is, this is for me, or I'm in my power. I like this and I'm not disparaging. Anybody's way of being sexual and nor do I mean to like. Paint this with just a single brush. I'm speaking in generalities and I'm speaking to. What tends to be common for most of us is that because we have a very heteronormative way of learning about our sexuality, whatever our sexual orientation might be, that story goes something like, man, woman. Woman is here to please the man. When the penis gets erect and has its Ejaculation, we are done Like, like, it's like it's a very, very narrow and simplistic way that most of us have learned about sex. I say the word sex and you're probably thinking penis in vagina intercourse.

Willow 21:27

Yeah.

Darshana 21:27

opposed to sex gets to be a really expansive, creative, beautiful journey that you can define on your own terms. And one of the cool things is that because my work with my clients, this is my main instrument, if you're not watching this on video, I'm wiggling my very long fingers around. I use my hands on my clients, right? Like so, so what's going on is that I am serving as a literal instrument for them to Then, as we've established those fundamentals of embodiment, we've learned about consent. They've expanded their vocabulary and their scope of possibility about the ways they can be touched, the ways they can be pleasured. Then we're moving on to phase three, which is when they actually start to allow more of this in and explore arousal. For most people in like an unprecedentedly robust way, it's like, wait, what? It could be like that. And this literally, you know, one of the clients that I mentioned who's kind of back for a another chapter, this is someone whose trauma history was so extensive that her, her body was on lockdown. Anything related to her genitals was liable to be painful unto itself. And if she ever got to the point of having an orgasm, she'd get migraines. Like her her body was just in such protest, even though she's in a beautiful, secure, loving marriage right now. And intellectually wants to be open to her partner. But her history, ha ha ha, has shaped herself in a different way. And so this is, she's been five years into her own trauma healing journey. And about a year and a half, two years into our work, I guess two years at this point, into our work together specifically. And it's just in the last couple of weeks that we've gotten to the place where the first thing she said to me, she's like, this is the first time that my genitals actually feel connected to my body.

Leah 23:22

Hmm.

Darshana 23:22

This is a woman who's approaching 40 like, and then the next session she was like. You know, I used to like, think there was no way I was gonna ever want this for myself. She's like, I, I want this, like, this feels so good that like, I want this for me. You know? Like, it's like, can we just be with that for a minute? Someone so disconnected from their body and, and felt so little agency.

Willow 23:49

Right.

Darshana 23:49

Home to themselves to that degree, and thinking that all that could be possible is pain and awakening to holy moly, like pleasure,

The Importance of Touch and Consent

Leah 23:58

Yeah, like this is for me too. It's not just for other. Like, oh, especially when we feel like that's been so out of reach or, uh, maybe our family of origin has normalized that, um, you know, pleasure is for penis owners and service is for vulva owners, and that's the way the cookie crumbles. Um, and then there's a bunch of epigenetic things to untie around, you know, having generations of generations of women in your line, you know, not never having an orgasm. And sex isn't for you, it's your duty. Um, and it feels like for many of us, we're really far away from that, I think, especially when you live on the coasts. But the truth

Darshana 26:32

Yes.

Leah 26:32

is like that's actually not true. A lot of people are still very much living in real time with that disassociation. Um, so how do you help someone track the sensation in their body and start to anchor that pleasure is for them. Like is there a particular technique or something that you start with that you can kind of paint a picture for someone who may be encountering this right now in their life who, who may not be able to call you tomorrow and and book something, but maybe they could try something tonight that would help them come home to themselves.

Darshana 27:08

I love it. I love framing it that way.'cause I'm gonna speak to that like somebody who wants to just start right here, right now. Like what? What I wanna first introduce is that not all touches created equal. And we know this intellectually. We certainly know this somatically, which is to say in our body. But the, but where we trip up a lot is our vocabulary sucks when it comes to talking about touch. So most of us are like, oh, well, you know, I want to be touched. And we use that word. Well, if I slap you, are you gonna have the same response as if I caress you? Probably not. So the first thing we actually get to do is get a more robust vocabulary going around touch and we can experiment with ourselves. So you can experiment with running your nails across your skin as opposed to your finger pads that would be scratching versus like a feather touch. You can experiment with the palm of your hand grazing and stroking as opposed to squeezing, needing, giving compression to yourself. This menu of touch is one of the things that I introduced to my clients fairly early on, because in order for us to have a fully consensual exchange. And for me to know that they can confidently speak for themselves and trust, I'm gonna be responsive and vice versa. That if I say something to them, if I suggest something that you know, that we know we're speaking about the same thing, that vocabulary actually matters. So, and then it's not just the words coming outta the mouth, it's the physical action. So as we start to explore that more robust vocabulary, it's not, again, not just the words, it's the sensation of it. Well, what do I like? What are my preferences? Do I actually like being pinched? And it's like, I might hear that word and think no, but.

Leah 28:59

Oh, right,

Darshana 29:00

If, if it's like a little pincher, like that kind of pinch, no. But if it's like a nice, like grab like, like a, you know, it depends upon the body. There's a lot of subjectivity

Leah 29:10

Yeah. A lot of nuance.

Empowerment and Personal Agency

Darshana 29:12

nuance, that's the word. And so. Most of us are not accustomed to touching and being touched in a nuanced way. And so we do these blanket statements of like, I like this. I don't like this. This is the same phenomenon that feeds into so many people, especially women of a certain age, right? Like, like women in who, who, who, especially if you've like, been in a relationship for a long time where you're continually performing your duties as opposed to having sex that you genuinely enjoy, like the story might go something like, I don't really like sex at all. Like, ugh, fine. I, I go along to get along. Like, yeah, I do this because it just makes life easier in my marriage. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then, you know, on the inside they're like, I have no interest in sex. I can't wait for this to be over. Like, you know, like when the, looking at the clock. My, my assumption there and, and you know what they say about assumptions, but I, it's a pretty good one. Like my assumption is you don't like the sex that you've been having, which that's not mean that you work sex period for touch. So touch is an integral part of sex. And if you are constantly being grabbed at, if your partner is doing what unfortunately, many people who have not taken the time to explore and be educated. What do we do? We go for nipples, we go for clit. We go for the most sensitive parts of the body first. Which all that's gonna do is send the alarms up and firing. And so we might experience dissociation, we might experience irritation, and of course we don't want that. So we tell ourselves a story that, oh, I, it's, I don't, I'm not interested in sex at all. Or the dissociation, which is to say, you know, leaving your body. Your body is present and having an experience and your consciousness is going elsewhere, like that is a protective strategy. But ask yourself if you are in an otherwise consenting relationship. Do you wanna be in a dynamic where you have to protect yourself from your partner's touch? Or might you wanna consider that there are ways to do it better and to learn and grow?

Communicating Needs Without Judgment

Leah 31:19

Well, and then talk about like the bridge that you're talking around, how this affects other sectors of your life when you feel like your, your body is on alert and you're flinching from touch because it's not, uh, it's, it's maybe unskillful or, you know, you're just been in, it's two people who've been sexually uneducated, which is very easy to come across in our, all of our lives. We have a terrible sex education. So we're all kind of innocent in this department. And then to have, um, not to have the sex that you want, not knowing what the sex you want looks like, you know? And so you're in this dynamic that you just described where someone's coming and grabbing or going straight to primary rogen zones without turning you on. In a way that actually turns you on. Uh, that bleeds over there's a, sometimes a, a corruption of trust. I, I can't trust my skin with my partner. Um, it feels like they take, instead of give. I feel on guard and then I just all the things that have the ripple effect into every other sector of your life that that causes. Um, I think this is where the wholeness of the situation, and I think a lot of people compartmentalize sexuality and don't see how much it affects these other

Willow 32:41

of life. Yeah.

Navigating Changing Desires

Darshana 32:43

You are completely right. I mean, there's so much in that, that what we're talking about fundamentally is being able to identify and establish our boundaries. Our preferences and our desires. We're talking about feeling empowered and confident in our voice, believing that we have a right to the things, feeling good, like whatever the things are, you know? So if we're talking about touch, if we're talking about any other facet of relationship, if we're talking about this being in the workplace or the bedroom, like this is a lot to do personal power agency is a word that I swap in for power. And so that is something that we are struggling with and even a lot of women who might say, for instance, feel more on top of their game in other spheres of life. I, I would invite the question that are, do you really and truly embody that? Or are you performing it? Because many of us have gotten good at performing, and this is not to pathologize or blame anyone. The vast majority of us who've had this dominant cultural conditioning, what we're really, really great at is people pleasing. We're really, really good at playing the part that we believe we need to play that curry's favor, that that keeps the relationships moving, that closes the deal, that that puts politeness over genuine comfort. And we've been taught implicitly and explicitly to do this in every aspect of our life since we've been young. So of course it's gonna show up in, in our sex life and our intimate life. Unless, as we've said, like you make a choice to educate yourself. And the fact of not having been educated, you've already said it, Leah, like our dominant education around sexuality is horrific. It's awful. It's it, I mean like, and, and we're talking about sex, but the other piece that's really missing is intimacy. Very, very few of us know what it takes to cultivate true intimacy and a lot of people listening to what we're talking about here might be saying like, yeah, but, hmm, I don't know. Like, what if I say this to my partner and, and they're offended or they think that I don't like them, or, you know, it's gonna cause a fight. And so we do that. We do that a lot worrying about another person's comfort and, and suppressing our own

Leah 34:53

Great example.

Willow 34:54

Mm-hmm.

Darshana 34:55

but here's the truth of what's really going on there. Here's who's getting abandoned. Here's who's getting betrayed. You.

Leah 35:01

Mm-hmm.

Willow 35:02

Yeah.

Darshana 35:03

So underneath all of this is the self betrayal, right?

Leah 35:07

Hmm.

Willow 35:07

And I imagine that there's a, um, really important component that you're teaching your clients, which is how to communicate this.'Cause it's one thing to figure it out, to understand it, to know it in your body. I like. This touch here, this touch and, and to be attuned to the moment. Because as vulva owners, you know, our moments are pretty erratic and they change as our cycle changes. And as you know, our resources within ourselves change. Like, have we been well slept? Have we been well fed? You know, how are we doing? Are we well-resourced? And so all of that can shift moment to moment. So it's this deep. Fine attunement that you're talking about, but then the art and the skill of communicating that without sounding critical, without sounding judgmental, because that's one of the quickest ways to shut a lover down or a partner down.

Darshana 35:58

Well, a hundred percent. And it's not only a, not sounding critical, not sounding judgmental, it's not being those things. Which take it from like, the work, like I've got such a strong, judgmental part in me. I, I am a hundred percent a recovering, people pleaser, perfectionist, all the things I'm talking about. Like, I, like I, I am my own laboratory over experimenting. So, so a lot of times, you know, like we are criticizing and judging, but we're trying to package it into pretty words and, and like most people's, like BS meter can, can pick up

Willow 36:32

feel that.

The Importance of Feedback and Curiosity

Darshana 36:33

So what we actually wanna do is cultivate like a genuine openness, a, a giving of like, what is the phrase I'm looking for here? An assumption of positive intent in all directions, not seeing our partner as our adversary, and the one that we're pointing a finger and blaming. But what we're going for here is shared vulnerability. It's actually very, very vulnerable to say like, Hey, I, I, I'm noticing my body wants something different right now. That's not me saying you are doing it wrong. It's me saying I'm paying attention to myself. And you know, like, like you named, like especially if we are a vulva having bodies and bodies that whose hormones are cycling, like things are changing all the time. It's the wild, wild west up in here. And so. You know, at a certain point in our cycle and whether we're talking about someone who is still cycling and, and you are having regular menstrual cycles or you're in menopause or post menopause, and those different chapters like micro and macro cycles, we need and want different things. And so you might want a really passionate, fierce, like, mm, grab at me, gimme that. Like manhandling energy, one moment. And then the next, what you need is slowness and tenderness. And maybe sometimes you super, super, super want intercourse. You wanna get railed, you want it like that. And then there's other moments where it's like, you know, I think just a little oral might feel nice like, like I just want something gentle and soft. And what we need to do is cultivate our capacity to be vulnerable with ourselves first and foremost, about disclosing that it's a little bit of an identity crisis, right? Because it flies in the face of the performative people pleasing of like, yeah, I'm just available for like the whatever, whatever our.

Willow 38:16

wanna do. Yeah. To me, yeah.

Darshana 38:18

Exactly. And, and then we get to invite our partners vulnerability. You know, like we, we actually get to give permission and be, be the model, the ambassador, if you will, for like, Hey, like, maybe there's more available to us than we've realized. Like, I wanna grow with you. I want us both to feel amazing in our bodies. I want deeper intimacy. So none of this is because I'm, I'm wagging my finger, criticizing, it's actually saying. I care. I care about you. I care about me. I care about how we grow together. Like what if we learned more? What? What if we experimented more? What if we brought some curiosity and mixed things up? It's vulnerable and it's intimacy building.

Leah 38:59

How often do you, yeah.

Willow 39:02

you know, because I think sometimes. Women can feel like, well, I'm asking for too much. Like, I'm being too needy. I don't wanna come off as like having all these needs and asks. But it's the, the reframe within is, you know, I, I care about the way that we grow together, exactly what you just said. And I think that that can be, like, then it's more like a gift, you know, I'm offering you, um, some, some shift in what you're doing because it's a gift for both of us, you

Darshana 39:32

Yes. Feedback is a gift. Direction is a gift. And as somebody who spends her days attending to other people's bodies and sexual arousal, I can tell you I would far rather have the person I'm touching tell, give me some parameters, give me some guidelines, because this is another thing that happens and, and nobody's at fault here. We tend to touch people the way we like to be

Leah 39:59

right.

Darshana 40:00

if we're thinking about it at all.

Willow 40:02

It seems normal

Leah 40:03

Yeah, it seems

Willow 40:04

right? Yeah. Yeah,

Leah 40:06

when you're not educated. You're just gonna try what works for you.

Working with Partners and Self-Discovery

Willow 40:08

Or what you've seen has worked for others, often coming from porn. Yeah.

Darshana 40:13

and so do, okay, there's 8.2 billion people on this planet or something like that presently, which is just wild. Do you think that all of us wanna be touched in the same way? No. No, so, so when our default position is each body has its preferences, each body needs and wants different things in different moments. Like when we just assume that that's the way of it, it creates a much more spacious baseline. And so for a lot of us, you might hear what I'm saying, and this is the moment of paradigm shift, like, oh. Right. And so you get to now go take this to your partner. Go take this to your lovers. Go take this to whomever in your life you might wanna share this with, and be like, you know, we do this thing kind of following a rote script, and I, I touch you the way that's familiar to me or that I like, but like, I'll use a non-sexual example. When I was little, my mother used to like tickle the inside of my forearms. She loved this. It was her favorite thing. And it turned out that I did love it too. So. I ha like, I go to a lot of like light tickly, feathery touch as, as something that feels amazing to me. Some people hate that. It's irritating. Nails on the chalkboard. Is anybody wrong in that equation? No.

Willow 41:31

No. Yeah.

Darshana 41:33

No. It's like, oh, okay. So Darshans experience, like has her doing this thing. You don't happen to like it. Okay. Let, like, like do you see, do you hear the levity? I'm holding that with like, no big, great, let's try something else. Could you imagine if we brought that degree of lightheartedness and spaciousness to our erotic play and our sexual touch in particular, and we lent, like we led with, oh, I'm curious. What do you like? I wonder what this feels like. How about we try it this way, combine A, B, C, you know, like there's so much room to experiment. That gets to be a, a source of a lot of joy and creativity, and sometimes you're gonna, you're gonna flubber it and, and it'll be awkward or you really won't like something. Again, let's normalize that. Like we, we, we are not professional actors, you know, like who have been trained to read a particular script here. Like we are human beings and, and it's very improvisational. And when we can relax into that instead of resisting it. When we can assume that that's gonna be part of our experience as opposed to freaking out when something doesn't go according to the proverbial script. It's like we're just giving ourself a lot more grace and opening up room for a lot more possibility for how we can access pleasure, intimacy, satisfaction, connection, the the things that are presumably what we're here for.

Willow 42:53

Darna I. oh, go ahead Leah. And then I wanna sh I wanna shift gears. I wanna know about how the Netflix thing came about. I wanna hear the story of that, so, but go for it, Leah. Carry

Leah 43:04

Um, I'm really curious because, you know, it's when you're, I'm curious if you ever end up working with the partner after you've worked with the first person because, um, even if they come back and they're gonna have these new tools and these, this understanding about what opens them, what closes them, making little shifts, they're coming very curious minded. They're working, you know, hard on this type of communication that that fosters joint curiosity. But still the other person it's so natural for us to feel insecure about our sexuality, about our sexual performance, um, our lack of confidence on what to do with our partner, feeling like we're klutzy, we're fucking it up. We're missing the mark. They're starting to get the flinch. You know, you're, you, we become, you're already pretty attuned to someone's, you, you have to be really out, out to lunch if you're not noticing whether these little micro movement shifts in someone's system that kind of says, come closer, go away. And so even you have a great experience, you've got these new things, and they're still bumping up against all the stuff that is tender, that is confusing, that is fraught, that feels like high stakes. You know, this sex is supposed to be this great adult playground, but so much of it feels like so much pressure and there can be so many icky sensations when you're butting up against your competency. That I wonder how often does the other partner then need to go, either get some coaching or come see you to go, I'm so fucked up over this.

Willow 44:39

Good question. Yeah.

Darshana 44:41

a good question and it's fair. I mean, I've had it in all directions. I have worked with some people individually who have then brought their, their partners in and they've done a chapter of work together. Some people not. I work with a lot of people who are dating or, or single or freshly out of a relationship. And so for them the work is very much about self discovery and, and self intimacy that they then get to bring into future relationships. Um, I have had couples start together from the onset, you know, and, and, and that can be really, really helpful, like when they're both equally motivated. The thing is, even though that phrase just came outta my mouth equally motivated, generally speaking, when I work with couples, one of them is a little keener, a little warmer to the idea than the other, a little or a lot more reticent. But what I've also seen happen with, even with some of those very same couples, is the one who thought they weren't gonna be as into it is the one who's like, Darshana, this is amazing.

Leah 45:42

They end up having

Willow 45:43

That always happens. Yes,

Leah 45:45

I have seen that over and

Darshana 45:46

and, and I mean, I think, you know, one more piece that I want to include there is, I, I use the term earlier, like you can be an ambassador, you can bring this back to your partner, which is always a truth, Uh, we, we are not our partners therapists, we are not our partners teacher. Ultimately, like can we step into that role conscientiously and consensually? Sure. So a lot of this too is back to that term agency to personal power. It's like, do this for you. And, and see what happens. Like, it's not all that dissimilar, like if you, you know, if, if you are somebody who's engaged in any degree of personal growth work, or if you are, for instance, in recovery world, like in the 12 step world or, or you know, you're unwinding your codependency, you're dealing with your ism, whatever it is, we all know that like mostly what, what works is we evolve and the people around us take notice and either. They're going to lean toward our evolution and our growth

Leah 46:48

Mm-hmm.

Darshana 46:49

And they might be slow, they might do it at their own pace, but it might be like, oh,

Leah 46:53

Mm-hmm.

The Netflix Opportunity

Darshana 46:53

I, I see you changing over here. Like this is intriguing. Like, you know, and, and, and it becomes an invitation and the person gets to opt in. They get to self-select like, yeah, you know what I, I, I want what she's having. It's also then, if not that scenario, it becomes a litmus test, right? Where like if you are growing and evolving and you are extending invitations and, and, and demonstrating change and your partners digging their heels in and really unable or unwilling to, to, to go down that path with you, that's information. And, and I mean I'm not telling you what you need to do with that information'cause you do still have options, but, but it is information to have. Is this somebody that I want to keep journeying with? Are we going to be able to still find points of resonance and connection that have us mutually saying yes, even if this is not one of them. Some of my clients, that's very much where they're at in a long-term relationship where whatever their reasons are, they're their reasons. They're staying in it. And they may not feel sexually satisfied. And the reason they're coming to me is because they don't wanna upset the apple cart in their marriage, but they don't want this part of themselves to just die. And they wanna have a safe, sacred, loving space where they get to be in their bodies and be in their connection and cultivate that self intimacy. And then maybe speaking of self intimacy, using that as, as a free a turn of phrase for masturbation, solo sex, or maybe you're in a non-monogamous dynamic where you have other outlets for exploring your sexuality that, that, uh, an anchor or primary life partner may or may not be included in. Like, we've got options

Leah 48:39

Including not continuing to walk together, you know, including going, I, I love you, but I I'm not willing to do it the old way. I, I've changed too much. And if these conditions no longer work for you, they're no longer working for me. And so, you know, I always tell people, look this is not promise to save your relationship. It promises to bring you closer to your truth.

Darshana 49:03

No, I mean, I've had multiple clients exit relationships through our work together in the same way that I've had clients recognize their a shift in gender identity or sexual orientation or relationship style. I mean, when I say self intimacy, all of that is included. How intimately can you know yourself?

Willow 49:25

Yeah, I love that part of the work. I mean, I feel like that's what makes it so magical is like you get to discover the, the deepest essence within yourself and really live from that authentic truth. I mean, that's real sovereignty, you know? It's so beautiful to witness and things have to crumble and things have to fall away in order for that to happen when there's been layers and layers of, you know, I should be this way and I should act this way. I mean, you went through it yourself, Darshana, you know, you went through the whole Yeah. Many times. We all have like, it's so, it's such an important part. I feel like I'm kind of going through it right now. It's good times, you know? Um, okay. Okay. I wanna shift gears'cause I selfishly wanna hear the story about how, how Netflix came to you and found you and said, Hey, come be on Gwyneth Paltrow's Sex, love, and Goop.

Darshana 50:16

I, I mean, I, I, I, I don't wanna spoil it by saying like, it may not be as exciting as you think. I, I got an email. I got an email while we, it was summer of 2020 and y'all remember what was happening summer of 2020, like we're in active quarantine, like life is locked down. Everybody's figuring out like, what, what do we do now that we can't be together? And an email floats into my inbox saying like, we wanna talk to you about a Netflix show. And I'm like, is this a hoax? Is

Leah 50:44

right.

Willow 50:44

Wow. Yeah. I would've thought the same thing to, yeah.

Darshana 50:48

um, and. It was not, it was not a joke. Um, it was the production company that had reached out. And so it wasn't even, it didn't say Netflix in the email, like the, you know, the domain. It didn't even say anything about Goop or Gwyneth Paltrow initially. It was just like, we wanna discuss this project with you. And I'm like, okay. Um, and I remember distinctly because that summer one of my dearest friends had had a baby right before lockdown started, and they were on the East coast and I was on the west coast. I'm like, I'm coming. And I got in the car and I drove across the country because what else were you gonna do? Right? And so I,

Leah 51:24

timing you're.

Reflections on the Journey

Darshana 51:26

in a, I'm sitting in a little brownstone in Brooklyn, New York, like visiting them, taking this phone, this call, it was a Zoom, and it was like, oh, so here's the show that we are gonna be creating. And what it was is, I believe this is accurate to say. Gwyneth Paltrow had a prior Netflix show, I think it was called the Goop Lab, and there was one episode of that series that focused on explorations of sex and intimacy and it featured Betty Dodson, who has since passed away. And like just, it was, it was a very compelling episode and I think that they realized like, oh, this is getting a lot of attention. And so there was then a six part series, which is Sex, love, and Goop that was created. It featured five experts, five experts, and five real couples paired up and working together, and I got chosen to be one of the experts and, and it was a life and game changing experience. It was so beautiful. I worked with like the most lovely couple in the world, Camille and Chandra, like, oh my God, like amazing

Willow 52:31

they did, I feel like the show did such a great job depicting, you know, like, like highlighting and, and, and bringing in the, I'm sure you worked with them for much longer than what we saw on the show, but like though, I feel like the show did a good job of weaving in, you know, all the most important pieces.

Darshana 52:51

could not agree more. And I gotta say like I was pretty freaking nervous about that.'cause yes, we worked toge you, you see, I think my screen time comes in at around 40 minutes, spread out over three episodes. We were together for.

Willow 53:05

three month journey.

Darshana 53:07

Well, I wasn't with we, we did it as an intensive, but, so I was with them for days and doing, and there were so many different parts. There was all the prep work we did over Zoom, like before we came together during lockdown where it's like COVID tests and masks and the production company was amazing. The editing was amazing. I was much like you said, Dr. Willow. I like completely agree. They did a beautiful job of taking this much bigger arc and showing it to people in a really concise and impactful way and it's like forever this will be so something I have the honor of having been a part of. Because so many people I, I'm not exaggerating when I say me personally. I did not get a single solitary negative message trolling. Like

Leah 53:59

Wow, that's wonderful.

Darshana 54:01

I received was praise. All I

Willow 54:05

That

Leah 54:05

that is amazing.

Darshana 54:07

yeah,

Leah 54:07

Oh, I'm so happy for you.'cause that I'm sure, I mean, if it were me, I would be going through the, oh my God, I, I'm gonna not love that part of the journey is getting, you know, hate and, you know, negativity slamming here and there. Um, so

Willow 54:24

What a gift.

The Dish with Leah & Dr. Willow

Leah 54:25

was there anything that wasn't in the episodes that you wish would've been?

Darshana 54:32

Oh wow. That is a good question. I, I mean, I'll be honest, it's been four years at this point, so I'm like, do I remember all of it? Um, I mean, I don't know that it's a, I wish was included. It's simply, I'll say like, there's a lot you didn't see. And, and, and some of that had to do with like the very, like, not the big flashy moments. A lot of it was like the smaller tender moments, the conversations that were happening, you do see on the screen camille, like get activated and, and me supporting her in settling down and coming back and like really reaffirming her boundaries and like, that was a much bigger process than the little glimpse of it that, that is on the screen. Because what happened there is she recognized, like, it's very actually a beautiful example of what we've been talking about here. She was performing. She was going along with what she thought should happen, how it should look, and, okay, like, I'll forget my discomfort. I'm just gonna keep going. And can you imagine doing that with cameras on you to boot? Like,

Willow 55:33

Geez. I know.'cause you are being watched. Well, you

Darshana 55:37

I said to her, thank you. And I, I think it's not, I think this made it into

Willow 55:42

It did.

Darshana 55:43

it said, where it's like, do you wanna put your clothes back on? Like, do you wanna, do you wanna deescalate what's going on? It's like you could see the light bulb go off where it's like, wait, that's

Leah 55:54

have permission to do that? Yeah.

Willow 55:55

that. Yeah.

Leah 55:57

Yeah. Wow. That's

Darshana 55:58

So

Willow 55:59

If y'all haven't seen it, if y'all haven't seen Sex, love and Goop, just at the top of your to-do list. Go watch Darshana and the other sex experts are amazing as well. Jaya and Ian are on there. Um, I don't know the names of the other two, but there was one woman who worked with Couple and had this, they were like an older couple, been together for a long time. She had them crawling around on the ground, growling at each other. I mean, there was good, good fodder

Darshana 56:24

yeah, that's Amina Peterson. And then, um, McKayla Boem was also one of the, the other experts. Yeah.

Willow 56:31

Yeah. And then there was someone doing uh, IFS.

Darshana 56:34

She was doing family constellations. So different from IFS. Yeah, that was a really cool one.'cause it was kind of like an outlier

Willow 56:43

Yeah. It wasn't so sexual.

Darshana 56:46

It, it wasn't, but it, you know, it was what that couple needed.

Willow 56:49

Yeah.

Leah 56:50

Well, we'll have, um, the episodes in the show notes, so go head over to the website if you wanna just make it easy on yourself, including how to work with you. We'll have all of your information there in the show notes as well. Thank you so much. This has been such a lovely conversation.

Darshana 57:08

Likewise, total pleasure.

Leah 57:11

Okay, friends, well, the show's not over. The dish is coming up next, so please stay tuned.

Announcer 57:17

Now our favorite part, the dish.

Leah 57:21

Oh, that was

Willow 57:22

that was so good.

Leah 57:23

Yeah. I felt

Willow 57:25

to a sister,

Leah 57:26

I know, it feels like it's just such a common language. Very similar. Yeah. Like all the, all the alignment of tools is just very, uh, symbiotic.

Willow 57:38

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I just love her. Um, you know, very holistic perspective and take and on, you know, how to help people tr transform inside of their sexuality'cause as we know from all the work we do, it is such a root part of ourselves that we often over, you know, we sweep it under the rug.

Leah 58:00

Yeah, we minimize it.

Willow 58:01

it, we minimize it, we make it not a big, you know, I'll just

Leah 58:04

Or we overinflate it, you know, sometimes it's like, it's, sometimes it's either or, like this inflation of like, it's the most important thing ever and there's so much drama around it, or we minimize it and we suppress it and, you know, we're, we're not living a full life because of the neglect.

Willow 58:22

Yeah. Yeah. It's absolutely, I do, you know, from all the different healing modalities that I've studied and practiced over the years, I feel like the, the sexual healing piece and the, the spiritual expansion that comes from it, and the physical health that comes from it, it's just such, it's one of the, the most efficient, effective, and fast tracks to healing that I've ever seen.

Leah 58:47

Yeah. Yeah, it's really magical. I had a really magical experience, um, with somebody new that I was working with, and when you see the connections that line up and you see their eyes shift and change and the ahas and like, like bridges are made that had never connected before. There's, I, it's just the most fulfilling thing to be a part of. It's so humbling and so special, and so heart opening. You know, it's not just about being sexually adequate, it's not just about finding sexual confidence, it's finding yourself. It's like coming home to your heart when everything starts to get embodied. Um. You're no longer separate from this thing called sex or this thing between your legs, you start to realize that it's a full part of you. And when that starts to merge and, uh, with everything else, um. What? Yeah, what a gift. No wonder we want that for everyone. You know? We want everyone to have that. Sometimes, you know, especially when, when I first got done with my trainings, we were warned, don't become a born again Tanika. You know where you are like pressing the good word on everyone. I'm going, you need this, you need this, you need this. And, and over the years I've had to temper some of that enthusiasm to go, not everyone is not everyone's dharma, not everyone's karma is meant to go down this track. Man, when you see the light turn on, you can't help but you know, pray for every being to be connected to themselves in that way.

Willow 1:00:21

Absolutely. I mean, it's uh, such a beautiful thing to witness people step into their fullness in that way, and to be able to offer that to people. It's, I often will say it's like giving someone ice cream for the first time. Like,

Leah 1:00:36

It's

Willow 1:00:37

you know, they're like. Wow, this thing tastes amazing. It's like I've never had it. It's just to see people have experiences that they've never had before, that their bodies are totally capable, their psyches are totally capable of, and it's just, it's such a gift. And I really loved, I, I mean, I could watch that whole Sex, love and Goop thing all over

Leah 1:00:57

Yeah,

Willow 1:00:58

it was so

Leah 1:00:59

watch it again. It was really good. It's been a while. Yeah. I.

Willow 1:01:03

Yeah.

Leah 1:01:04

Well. Cool. Well, thanks everyone for tuning in. Please remember to comment, share this episode. Help us grow our viewership by spreading the word that you are a Sex reimagined fan. We appreciate it.

Speaker 1:01:18

Thanks for tuning in. This episode was hosted by Tantric Sex Master Coach and positive psychology facilitator, Leah Piper, as well as by Chinese and Functional Medicine doctor and Taoist Taxology teacher, Dr. Willow Brown. Don't forget your comments, like subscribes and suggestions matter. Let's realize this new world together.