Leah & Dr. Willow: Cult, Religion, or Neither? The Red Flags Before You Start Learning Tantra | #201

Is Tantra a Religion? The Truth About Teacher Red Flags, Spirituality, and Sacred Sex. Is tantra a religion, or is it something you can shape around your own beliefs? In this episode of the Sex Reimagined podcast, Leah Piper and Dr. Willow Brown answer a listener's question about tantra and religious conditioning, breaking down the difference between white tantra (your solo, spiritual practice) and red tantra (bringing that presence into relationship with another person). Leah opens up about growing up in a Pentecostal household and then Catholic school, and how tantra became the path that let her hold both her faith and her rebellion at the same time. The conversation moves into a second listener question on red flags in tantra teachers, with Leah and Willow sharing the exact things to watch for when choosing a tantra teacher, from gaslighting and isolation tactics to teachers who overly sexualize the work or can't explain why a practice matters. If you've ever wondered whether tantra practices require you to believe in something specific, or you're nervous about finding a legitimate tantra teacher versus someone using tantra as a cover, this episode gives you a clear, grounded answer.

EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS

• Tantra isn't a religion or dogma. It's a set of practices you can layer onto whatever you already believe
• White tantra is your solo practice (meditation, journaling, self-pleasure); red tantra brings that presence into relationship with another person
• Leah's own path from a religious upbringing to tantra shows how it can hold both faith and rebellion at once
• A good teacher always explains "why" and welcomes questions; red flags include gaslighting, isolating you from your community, secrecy, and targeting the youngest or most attractive students
• Don't put teachers on a pedestal. Study with many, and trust your own body and experience as your best teacher

LINKS & RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THE EPISODE CAN BE FOUND ON THE WEBSITE: https://www.sexreimagined.com/blog/is-tantra-a-religion 

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Transcript

Welcome and Listener Question

Leah 1:03

Hey there. Welcome to the Sex Reimagined podcast. I am Leah Piper. I'm with Dr. Willow Brown. We are the hosts of the show. And to introduce this week's episode, we're gonna open with a listener question I grew up in a pretty religious household, and spirituality is still complicated for me. I'm drawn to Tantra, but I'm scared it's going to conflict with my beliefs or ask me to commit to some kind of spiritual framework I'm not ready for. Is Tantra a religion, and do I have to believe in something specific to practice it?

Willow 1:35

So tune in, turn on, and fall in love with the wisdom of this ancient practice

Speaker 1:42

Welcome to the Sex Reimagined podcast, where sex is shame-free and pleasure forward. Let's get into the show

Leah 1:51

Okay. So do I have to believe in something specific to practice Tantra?

Willow 2:00

No, you don't. The answer is no, you don't. You can believe in anything you want and still practice Tantra.

Union Over Duality

Willow 2:08

Tantra is about union. Union with self, union with spirit, union with another, union with nature. It's about being in a more harmonious state of w- of, of oneness and allness rather than division, separateness, and duality. You know, we, we swim in duality constantly every day, all day. It's good, it's bad, it's right, it's wrong. I like it, I don't like it. And so our minds and our nervous systems are constantly oriented to, "Oh, this good thing happened? I'm happy. This bad thing happened? I'm not happy." Tantra gives us the opportunity to drop out of that constant ping pong game that causes so much anxiety for so many people, and, um, allows us to just be in union with what is

Leah 3:00

Yeah. I would say that instead of Tantra being like a dogma, a religion, um, even a spiritual path, I think of it more as a philosophy. It's, a series of practices that first and foremost carries you into the body so that you can have more embodied experiences within yourself. It opens up doors, ways to a transcendent experience within your body that I think a lot of people are craving. It gives you ways to be in more harmony with yourself, with a partner, and with nature. Basically just repeating what Willow just said. it helps us develop our consciousness to, regulate our nervous system when it gets stressed out, to, catch ourselves before we go straight into patterns. It's a path of personal growth. It's a way to be with yourself and to have, concrete rituals that help you expand, help you get more out of this life that is, like you said, Willow, filled with duality.

Love as the Middle Path

Leah 4:06

One of the things that I always mention oftentimes in the beginning of a workshop is that it feels like life gives us two sets of things. On one side of life is all the joy, right? All the beauty. We've got laughter and friendships and vacations we're excited to go on, and sunsets that take our breath away, and baby puppies that lick our face delightfully, and, and baby smiles that y- you know, are riveting even though they're doing nothing but drooling. We find them entertaining t- to all get out. Like, that's this amazing thing of life that brings us so much joy. Then we have this shitty side of life that's got cancer in it, and bankruptcy, and, um, car accidents, and stress, and foreclosures, and all these things that make life so freaking hard. And what's in between all of that I think of is, is really love. And what Tantra does is it helps us come into our bodies where that resource of love exists to help balance out these two parts of life. Because the soul gets really weary on the side of life that's really challenging. And we don't need more things to make us happier, to balance out that weary soul. We have to remember that we have a heart, and we can renew our weary soul and the weary soul of another by showing up in conscious relationship. So that's kinda how I

Willow 5:33

I love that. I love that. I think it's such a beautiful, um, visual of, yeah, we can all relate to all of

Expansion Contraction Awareness

Willow 5:39

that. And, you know, I, I think that we, we have these bodies that we're walking around in, these containers for our souls, and, um, you know, when we have a deeper sense of attunement to our own container, our own instrument, our own, um, you know, thing that we get to carry our soul around in, then we have so much more... We understand when we're contracting around something and when we're expanding around something. And I think Tantra really gives us that deeper level of attunement to ourselves. Then we can discern, "Oh, yes, I'm feeling expanded when that person steps into my sphere. I'm feeling contracted when that person steps into my sphere." So we start to, again, playing with the duality, but then you, you have this stronger sense of discernment, like, "Okay, now I get to decide, you know, do I, do I wanna move toward that person or away from that person or that event or that thing or whatever it is?" And, um,

Leah 6:42

Even is there another way to see that person? Is there another way to see that event? Is there another perspective available to me other than just my triggered first

Willow 6:51

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I, you, yeah, you mentioned, like, it can help you deal with the, the knee-jerk reactions of, like, "I don't feel safe, so I'm gonna move away from that person," or, "I don't feel safe, so I'm going to fight that person," or whatever your sort of pattern of trigger is. It gives

Leah 7:10

I don't feel safe, so I'm gonna ignore that.

Willow 7:13

Say that again

Leah 7:15

or, or I don't feel safe and I'm gonna ignore that instead of pay attention.

Willow 7:19

A lot of people definitely just like, whoop, divert, you know? They just, uh, ignore the whole situation. It's always an opportunity to grow when we're going into contraction, and it's an opportunity to grow when we're going into expansion. And so, um, you know, those... The word itself, tan, means expansion. So tra, it's a, it's a weaving or a tool or an opportunity to expand your capacity to be with life, and that's how you get to be in a deeper union with all of life

Make Tantra Your Own

Leah 7:54

I think too, uh, what's important to know about Tantra and Tantric practices and how you carry all of them, you know, because it's not a dogma, you take your belief system and you add it to the practices. You are the creator or the creatrix of your practice. You decide what elements are in alignment for you, and anything that doesn't resonate, there's absolutely no judgment to curate your own experience and to simply adopt that which feels like, "Yeah, that really speaks to me." And if something else-- Like, you don't have to chant the mantrams for each chakra, for instance. You don't have to study the chakras or even meditate. You know, you can find your own way. If prayer makes more sense to you than meditation, then that's the vehicle that'll get you to the same exact place that meditation does. Meditation and prayer are really very, very, very simple and very similar. Uh, and so there's, there's things that you can take that are designed within your belief system that may just have a simply a different language, but pretty much gives you the same thing as your end result that you can kind of weave in to how you wanna play with the Tantric path. And, um, you know, my advice is don't get stuck on the Sanskrit language

Willow 9:21

Yeah, don't get s- don't get stuck on any of it. It's all for n- it's all for getting unstuck, not stuck on

White and Red Tantra

Willow 9:27

stuff. So one more thing that I wanna talk about is these two legs to Tantra that we teach a lot, which is white Tantra and red Tantra. And when we're in a practice with white Tantra, that is where we're, we're tonifying our own relationship to union, right? We're getting closer and closer to spirit through our own personal practices. So whether that's meditation or prayer or journaling or walking on the beach or whatever it is for you, whatever makes you feel more centered, closer to your own core, closer to your own true essence, that is gonna be a white Tantric practice. And that is a... That's more... I would feel like that's kind of more the spiritual element of Tantra. And then if when you bring that highly attuned, well-cultivated sense of your own spirit to relationship with another person, then you're in a red Tantric practice. So it doesn't even have to have sexuality involved in it at all. But it's, um, it's just about like how, how much can my essence meet this other person's essence? And then from that place, both of you get to feel seen and acknowledged in such a deep way, which I think is what all of humans really, really want in this life. They just want to be seen and acknowledged for who they truly are

Leah 12:26

Yeah. So just to make, just to reiterate for clarity reasons, what Willow's talking about is white Tantra is your solo practice. It's a practice that's just for you. It is where you come into yourself and a lot of people... What, what are some examples of a solo practice, Willow? What are some examples of your solo practice, your white Tantra

Willow 12:48

Yeah. I mean, some of the ones I just mentioned, prayer, meditation, journaling, walking on the beach, doing Qigong, um, you know, Bowspring for me, used to be yoga. Um, and just anything that makes me feel like I am expanding inside of my, my vessel, my body, and expanding inside of my heart, and I can... I'm, I'm moving away from the contracted places that happen for all of us. They happen for all. It's normal. It's part of life, you know? It's... We wouldn't understand expansion if we didn't ha- experience contraction, right? It's like we wouldn't understand light if we didn't know dark. And so they both have medicine in them. They both have a lot to teach us. And, um, I feel like the Tantric path and the Tantric lifestyle is to continue to come back home to the expanded state, even when those contractions come, knowing that they are part of the next big expansion

Leah 13:57

Yeah. I would say that my white Tantra practice is where I self-pleasure. It's where I do my own yoni witnessing, where I do my own mirror work and kind of come soul to soul and recognize where my pain and my stories are, and then bringing a lot of love and self-love. It's where affirmations often live for people. It's where I practice breathwork. It's where I come into myself and I build a relationship to my body. And so for me, that happens to be the chakra map. Understanding the psychology of my chakras, doing some self-reflecting, feeling deeply into what I'm still holding there. Noticing what parts of my body feel contracted, noticing what parts of my body feel expansive. Using touch and energy to try to move the expanded places into the stuck places so that I can get my whole body to have a really clear, full current, so that my body's building a relationship to its whole self. And that means energetically, spiritually, emotionally, physically, sexually, so that I am feel like an integrated person and all the things that help me achieve that integration. Sometimes that might be, um, doing research. Sometimes that might be going on a pilgrimage on my own. For some people, that might mean plant medicine. It's this, an experience of finding, and this may not be a language that works for everybody, but finding the divine that dwells within. And if there's something inside of your belief system that doesn't believe in the divine, then maybe it's finding the piece that is in alignment within. And so you find the language that works for you. One of the things that really struck me about this question is I grew up in a pretty religious household, and spirituality is still complicated for me.

Religious Conditioning and Freedom

Leah 15:54

Oh my gosh, let me tell you, I so resonate with that sentence. It so jumped out at me. If you're a listener of the show, you knew I really-- I grew up in a born again Christian Pentecostal cult the first 10 years, and then I got baptized into Catholicism at 11 and had to go to Catholic school, and then completely rebelled against all of it and became a crazy, wild hippie for, you know, a decade, and life has just emerged from there. So having a lot of religious conditioning that was, um, s- seeped into a very young, impressionable brain has created a very interesting person over here, you know? A lot of that I, I give a lot of credit for a lot of that creating a lot of depth, a lot of inquiry, a place that I can find a lot of hope and safety. There's, there's an experience of faith that got... that was a transmission into my system at a young age, but then there was also a fierce, rebellious questioner that was not gonna be controlled by religion either, and had, uh, a sense of going, "I know there's something bigger out there. I know there's something bigger out there, and I'm gonna go find it, and I'm not gonna just gobble up things that other people say. I'm gonna use my own essence and my own curiosity and my own deep knowing to find out what is true for me." And really, in a world, uh, in our Western culture that is, is very much Christian and, and Judeo, uh, lineage-based religious upbringings, this Tantra was the thing that helped carve out a path that I felt most, um, resonant with me, and it was because it was out with a lot of the religious trappings. There wasn't an almighty being saying, "This is what's right and this is what's wrong." It was, "Here's a system for you to be in inquiry with, and you use your body and, uh, the cultivation of inner guidance to tell you what's true or not. You give yourself experiences to find out, is this a crock of shit or does this have some legs to it?" And for me, it was like an answer to a prayer because it helped me straddle these two worlds, the, the secular world and then also the spiritual world, and then also the religious world. It finally felt like it was a system that helped me make sense of all these differing ideas, some of which I really liked, but other stuff that just was not a fit, especially more of the patriarchal teachings.

Willow 18:38

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I love that. I love how, how when you came to the Tantric path, it was sort of like, like a, a, a, an explosion into union with all the different parts, you know? Like at the time in your life and, you know, it's just, it's always fun to see that for people when they, um, when they're like, Oh, oh." It can... It's just very freeing. It's very freeing. It takes a lot of shit out of the box. It takes a lot of constructs out of the equation, and it allows you to actually just be more yourself. I mean, by the time I came to Tantra, I was already so far down the Taoist path, you know? I'd been meditating and studying Buddhism and studying Taoism and Chinese medicine for a long time by the time I hit the Tantra, um, journey, and so it all just kinda gelled and, and made perfect sense when I got there.

Leah 19:36

total

Willow 19:36

was just another adjunct of what I already had been in practice with. But I mean, I also grew up in the Catholic Church. My family is super Catholic. My grandparents had 15 children. They did not believe in birth control, and they, you know, also wanted that many kids. And so I just grew up in that big Catholic family in a small town, and it was, um, always... Yeah, it was always... There was a lot of shame. There was a lot of judgment. There was a lot of, "You're doing it wrong. You're doing it... You're not being right. You're being wrong," right? You know, it's like that duality. I feel like that's one of the things that kind of, mm, makes people feel stuck is, is the, the,

Releasing Shame and Finding Safety

Willow 20:21

the shame and the guilt that comes with those dogmatic religions. And, and there are plenty of amazing religions out there that don't carry all of that. Um, but Tantra is one of the most powerful ways to release systemic shame and guilt that is stuck way super deep in your tissues and your psyche and your, uh, your unconsciousness, like nooks and crannies you don't even know are there. And when you open those doors up and you clear that shame and you meet that shame, you say hello to it, you look at it, you figure, you kind of get to know it, and then it, it transforms into something else. And that's how you get to lighten the load of you're not enough, you're too much, you're not right in some way. You know, that's what shame really is. It's this feeling and this, um, experience of like, I am, I am not right, I am wrong, like there's something wrong with me. and it's, it's such a powerf- powerful controller, you know? It controls, uh, a lot of choices that we make, a lot of paths that we walk on, even foods that we eat. I mean, all little choices throughout the day, you know? I think that's one of the most incredible parts about Tantra is that eradication of shame

Leah 21:51

Oh, only totally. I think it's so powerful and important and liberating, and I think Tantra's really a path to liberation. It's really at the heart. That's what we're doing, is we are liberating ourselves from our suffering so that we have access to more love, so that we can live our true essence, without the trappings of our wounded parts that are grasping for how to get safe, how to get safe, how to get safe When you realize you are safe, the world isn't such a big, scary place anymore. You're not, you're not looking for threat everywhere. you're attracting something else into your world. I think too, one thing that may be important for some people is to, to maybe look at Neo-Tantra

Neo vs Classical Tantra

Leah 22:35

before looking at classical Tantra. Classical Tantra is gonna have a lot more esoteric concepts. it's gonna use a language that's more Hindu-like. You're gonna be hearing things like Shivanism and stories of these different deities from, um, uh, a more Hindu tradition, which can be an amazing thing. It can also be a really great break from whatever traditional Western religion you might have been exposed to. so that might be something of interest, but it might be something, that is not of interest. So just know that you're likely gonna find less esoteric and other, um, Eastern traditional stuff that may not be aligned with you in the more classical Tantra study than in the Neo-Tantra. The Neo-Tantra is more for, you know, your modern day Westerner than it is from your Eastern, um, philosophical, uh, inquisitor. So that's something to think of. Also, if this is something you're worried about, pay attention to who you study with, because

Choosing Teachers and Asking Why

Leah 23:39

if someone cannot answer your question why, you shouldn't be studying with them as far as I'm concerned. People who just tell you to meditate this way and that's it, and don't tell you why you should meditate that way and why this meditat- what kind of result this meditation's gonna do for you, both inside the bedroom, outside the bedroom, who's not gonna explain what these different things are, they just want you to go along with it and not bother them with your questions, they're probably not gonna be a good teacher for you because you deserve to know the why underneath every single practice that is being suggested to you so that, um, you can make a decision on whether or not you wanna try it

Willow 28:01

Yeah. And also, I mean, understanding why, like really having understanding is so crucial in the Tantric practice and the Tantric path. Like if you, if you're not clear or not certain about why you would do something or why it would work for you, then, um, yeah, you're kinda, you're kinda missing a huge, huge part of it. And the other thing too is, um, you know, but, you know, I wanna say like not having a huge agenda that you need to be some amazing Tantric scholar and, and know every little why of every little practice. Like there is something to also being in the mystery and being in the unknown. But yeah, if, if you're having a curiosity, you want your teacher and your guide to be able to guide you on that.

Leah 28:54

Well, really you just don't want a teacher that A, is either so arrogant that they can't be bothered with your question, or B, they don't know the answer to your fucking question so they're acting like it's not important and why are you bothering me with your question? Those are just my personal red flags. If they don't-- I, "I don't know" is a great answer to a question. So

Willow 29:14

as if you've had teachers like this before,

Leah 29:16

No, I really haven't. I've really, I've actually have only had really great teachers that are very patient with the whys. Um, but I've, I've been among a lot of students aspiring to be teachers who, um, don't want to be questioned and just want people to do as I say. And, uh, and so those-- And I've been around a lot of religious environments that are more, "Don't question me, do as I tell you." Um, so those are the bigger red flags in my personal experiences, is being around way too many authority environments that will not, do not tolerate a lot of questioners,

Willow 29:56

Yeah. You wanna, you wanna definitely like find out for yourself what is this, what is this path all about?

Leah 30:04

Yeah. And there's also great wisdom in like, you gotta try something to know if it's true for you. So take in with great sincerity the answer that you get, and then try it out and find out if it's true for you.

Willow 30:21

Mm-hmm.

Leah 30:22

drilling a teacher incessantly and then not trying anything makes for a bad student. That's a big word for that. Look for good teachers and be a good student, I guess is the moral of

Willow 30:39

I don't know. I think any, like any- anything that you feel drawn to and like open, that opens you, uh, uh, like explore there. Explore there first, you know? And then from there you'll, you'll reach a point where you're like, "Okay, this teacher's not for me anymore," and you'll move on to the next one. It's you are gonna always gonna be your best teacher. Your body's always gonna be your best teacher. Your own experience is always gonna be your best teacher. So follow that feeling of expansion

Leah 31:08

Yeah. When it comes to sexuality, this is where I just feel like Tantra could bring so much value into everybody's lives because it slows sex down, and it helps you get present, and it helps you become aware of what you're experiencing, and

Tantra for Better Sex

Leah 31:24

it helps you track what your partner's experiencing so that you can move together and have a deeper, more meaningful experience in sex. So the bottom line is if you wanna have experiences in sex that feel more meaningful, that make you feel closer, that, that provide you with some sort of transcendent, altered, beautiful experiences that just kinda take your breath away, and you want that depth of closeness with another human being, man, take, take the jump and practice some Tantra. At the minimum, it's gonna give you that. You can leave all the other stuff but it's gonna bring you home to yourself. It's gonna teach you about presence. It's gonna bring you closer to a partner. It's gonna slow down sex, and it's gonna give you better orgasms. And by God, it might just take you out to the cosmos. so

Willow 32:13

so good.

Leah 32:14

give it a little whirly, a little whirly, and, uh, thank us, uh, and let us know, uh, what, how it all turned out. I think we've got time for one more question.

Willow 32:25

Okay, one more question

Leah 32:28

Let's see. Okay, well, here's one that we already kind of touched on it, so maybe let's just see if there's anything else we wanna

Willow 32:35

Expand upon it? Let's

Leah 32:36

Yeah. "I really wanna work with a Tantra teacher, but honestly, the whole space makes me nervous. I've heard some stories, and I don't know how to tell the difference between someone who's legitimate and someone who's just using Tantra as a cover for something inappropriate. What should I look out for as red

Red Flags in Tantra Teachers

Leah 32:53

flags?"

Willow 32:55

That is an excellent question. Um, you know, as we have touched on already, like, yeah, you want somebody who knows, who's been in practice, who's studied, who knows their shit, and is patient with your questions and guiding you and teaching you, and also pointing you back to you and your own experience. Like, a lot of times when somebody asks me a question, I might ask them a question back so that I can actually pull the answer from them, and then give them a little bit more information about that particular question that they're asking so that they have, um, a really rounded understanding of, of what they're even asking. 'Cause I think sometimes students... You know, with Tantra, it's such a different path, and it's like you don't even know what you don't know. You know? You're-- So when you start to ask questions, you start, you're kind of fumbling a bit with them. Like, "I don't know what I'm trying to ask here, but this, this is what's happening." So yeah, I mean, that... Look out for that, and then also look out f- I would say look out for, for people who are, like, overly sexualizing Tantra, you know? Like, this is one piece of the pie with Tantra is sexuality, and it's a piece that we, you know, are very adept at and teach very well and teach with a lot of integrity, and there are a lot of Tantra teachers out there who teach that way. So, um, I would say, you know, find somebody that you feel like, wow, they're really holding sexuality with integrity and, you know, even if they're making it kinky or, or, or dirty or, or super, you know, taboo, there's nothing wrong with that. But it's like underneath all of it, it's in the name of love and it's in the name of, of helping somebody evolve and grow.

Leah 34:49

I think, one is watch out for gaslighting. When, a teacher tries to pull you away from another communities, that should be a red flag. They should not be isolating you from your normal communities, from your family, from your group of friends, from your other religious or spiritual belief systems. There should be no kind of manipulation to get you into only being with their community. That is something to watch out for. Another thing is for someone to shame you for your questions or for shaming you for pushing back on something that they're bringing to the table. you should be able to ask questions and get answers to your questions. And, you know, if you're, if you're questioning someone with a ton of suspicion and they're getting defensive, well, that's just human nature. You know? The w- make sure your questions are, respectful and, um, and are in context with what you're learning, that you're not just attacking someone's, um, person without good reason. So some of this is a, it has a lot of nuances, right? So it might be an easier question to answer with some specifics, but things that I would really be looking for is gaslighting. Someone making me feel like I am crazy for making a suggestion or asking a question, or getting me to change who I surround myself with because what they're doing is better than what everyone else is doing. Big red flag. The other thing is a teacher that is sleeping with a lot of their students a teacher who is really targets who they're seducing being oftentimes the younger people in the room and the most beautiful people in the room. Those are always really a little sketchy. there could be some grooming going on. So, uh, I would be looking for teachers who, um, that their personal life is a reflection of their teaching life. That they're not hiding a lot of secrets. They're not asking the people they're having sex with to keep it a secret. That they're really open with their personal philosophy and they're open with their personal life. They are transparent so that everyone knows kinda what they're getting involved in, and it also fosters a, uh, an experience of transparency and trust for everybody. So when you've got teachers that are being really sneaky or behind the scenes, that's really confusing. Also, if they had a controversial experience that maybe has created, some controversy around their business, maybe don't be too quick to judge them. Maybe ask them about it with great curiosity and see what their answer is. How do they respond to that controversy? are they humble? Do they communicate, you know, "That was unfortunate. Here's what I learned. This is a really hard chapter." Or do they pretend it never happened? Do they get defensive? Do they bluster? Um, all those things could give you some really great information on whether or not you'd wanna study or continue to study with them

Willow 37:54

Yeah, I think that's a, that, that's a really excellent point that you're making because, uh, uh, particularly a lot of male Tantra teachers do get thrown under the bus, um, and controversy does come up for them. It's not uncommon at all in this industry. And, um, uh, you know, z- it's, it's... No one ever really knows until you ask the person, "What actually happened? How are... Like, what was your side of the story?" You know? So it is good to, um, to really just actually get to know your Tantra teacher. We opened this whole conversation with talking about Tantra as union, right? Tantra as intimacy. So, like, you want to have an, uh, an, an intimate, like a close, like a deep trust with your Tantra teacher. And you can feel that. You can feel when you have a deep trust with somebody versus when you are, um, you know, when they're kind of up on, on a pedestal or up on a stage and you're like, "Oh," you know, you've got this kind of different, experience with them. I think it's you're gonna get so much more out of your, your journey, your education, your practice when you have a, a trusting, closer relationship with them. And a, a good Tantra teacher understands the flow of universal love, so they aren't, you know, they aren't holding back, as Leah was saying. Like, they're not hiding, they're not in secret. Like, they're not holding parts of themself back. They're, they're offering all of their wisdom and all of their expertise so that you have, um, as much information as they do to discover your own Tantric path and experiences.

Leah 39:46

And then I think maybe the last thing I wanna say about this is don't glamorize your teachers. Don't put them on pedestals. They're human flawed beings who are-- We're all just doing the best we can trying to figure it out. We shit the bed, and

Integrity Without Pedestals

Leah 40:01

how we clean up that shit is what really matters. And so you don't need your teacher to be perfect. What you need them to be is to have integrity, to know how to clean up their own messes, to be a human being. And so be mindful not to teacher worship. It's, it's one of the biggest mistakes you can do for your own experience, and it, it bring, it doesn't bring out the best in the teacher because they aren't to be worshiped. They're there to learn from. And, uh, you don't need a perfect teacher to get incredible wisdom and to keep expanding and exploring and finding the truths that make sense in your life. I encourage you to study with as many teachers as you can. Don't become a disciple of one teacher. Completely unnecessary and, and a little shortsighted because every teacher has something so unique, who has a perspective that really carries a part of the magic of all of this. And so expose yourself to as many teachers as you can and, um, and allow this whole process and practice to be a personal curated journey for yourself and what makes sense for you

Willow 41:13

Yeah. Remember that you are gonna be your own best teacher. You're just gathering information, you're gathering practices, you're gathering, um, stories and experiences so that you can... Um, it's a lot of it is permission. You know, a lot of what teachers give is permission. "It's okay. You can have this experience. It's o- it's okay." Like, 'cause there's so much shame around sexuality, and there's so much taboo as to like... I mean, I've had, I had moments early on when I started, um, doing, you know, t- like, uh, real Tantric Dakini work with Leah. I would call Leah up and be like, "Is this okay? Is it okay that, like, I felt pleasure?" She's like, "Oh yeah. Great. You can have that too," you know? So I remember... And we've had, um, I mean, you've had countless students come to you with those kinds of questions, and any time they come to me, you know, the question back to them is always like, "How do you feel about it?" And they're like, "I had a great time." I'm like, "Well then, God bless. That's all you need." Like, you need your own, um, your own permission to experience the expansion of what Tantric brings. So I think, um, just keeping in mind that there's so many layers to the education of Tantra, and it's a, it's ever-expanding. Like, I don't think you could ever reach the end

Leah 42:33

And I think too, like, what it asks of everyone who dabbles into looking at sexuality, sacred sexuality or other types of sexuality, kink, BDSM, any of the realms that has us really curious about how can we have, a sex life that feels really rewarding is i- it's for human beings, sex is still very complicated. The world of sexuality is still fraught with so many landmines, and as humans, we don't have it all figured out. There's no one path that's gonna keep you completely safe without any risk and still have these big rewards of great experiences. Uh, that doesn't exist yet. We have not knocked that out. But one thing that's happening that is really cool is that more and more the science is starting to back up what's happening through Tantric practices with what's happening from the brain science perspective, from the physiological perspective, from the blood flow

Science Meets Tantra and Closing

Leah 43:35

perspective, and from the transcendent perspective. So we're in a really exciting time where what we know from the science realm is really starting to merge with this more esoteric realm called Tantra. And so we can put a lot of faith in that. Um, I think that really helps for people who are a little nervous. And at the end of the day, you gotta take some leaps to get big gains. And so, uh, if you're ready for that, there's baby steps you can take, and we hope you take those baby steps with us because we really endeavor to create safe, experiences filled with, uh, consent and, uh, guardrails that help you, go at your own pace. And I think that's really important.

Willow 44:20

And on that note, we've got some really awesome things coming up. We've got a polarity masterclass that you don't even have to leave your own home, and you can learn all about the feminine and masculine poles and how powerful those are, even if you're in a same-sex relationship, and how much more dynamic your sexuality can be when you're really embodying those. Um, and then we've also got a couples retreat coming up in Vermont in September, and, um, that's gonna be so, so incredible, magical, delightful, expansive, healing, so many things

Leah 44:58

Well, I think that's good for today. Willow, it's fun to talk to you. I'm here hanging out in New York City getting ready for a workshop this weekend. And I hope you all are having a wonderful summer. I know it's really hot in Europe and it's really hot on the East Coast. Hope you're staying cool and we'll see you on the flip side

Willow 45:18

Ciao, ciao

Speaker 3 45:18

Thanks for tuning in. This episode was hosted by Tantric Sex Master Coach and Positive Psychology Facilitator, Leah Piper, as well as by Chinese and Functional Medicine Doctor and Taoist Sexology teacher, Dr. Willow Brown. Don't forget your comments, likes, subscribes and suggestions matter. Let's realize this new world together.