Leslie and Autism Self-Diagnosis

Hear Leslie's story about stumbling upon autism later in life, and the series of aha moments that ensued.

Leslie previously worked in animation on feature films such as FernGully: The Last Rainforest, The Lion King, The Hunchback of Notre Dame, Pocahontas, and Space Jam. She is now a freelance graphic designer crafting bespoke graphics and brand development for rogues, disruptors, and obsessives in California.

Topics discussed also include:

• Reasons why some people don't pursue formal autism diagnosis
• Intense empathy experienced by many on the spectrum
• Responses of loved ones to news of a potential autism diagnosis
• Some challenges with online autism screening tests

If you'd like to know more about this topic, check out:

Leslie's reading list:

Women and Girls With Autism Spectrum Disorder: Understanding Life Experiences From Early Childhood to Old Age by Sarah Hendrickx and Judith Gould

Odd Girl Out: An Autistic Woman in a Neurotypical World by Laura James

Autism in Heels: The Untold Story of a Female Life on the Spectrum by Jennifer Cook O'Toole

Older Autistic Adults: In Their Own Words — The Lost Generation by Wilma Wake, Eric Endlich, and Robert S. Lagos

If you'd like to know more about topics discussed in this episode, check out:

Autism Psychometric Tests —Embrace Autism website

"Reasons Autism Self-Diagnosis is Valid" by Aly Laube

"A Mixed Methods Study of Barriers to Formal Diagnosis of Autism Spectrum Disorder in Adults" by Laura Foran Lewis

"Autism Identity and the 'Lost Generation': Structural Validation of the Autism Spectrum Identity Scale and Comparison of Diagnosed and Self-Diagnosed Adults on the Autism Spectrum" by T. A. M. McDonald

"Biocertification and Neurodiversity: The Role and Implications of Self-Diagnosis in Autistic Communities" by Jennifer C. Sarrett

"How is Psychological Wellbeing Experienced by Autistic Women? Challenges and Protective Factors: A Meta-Synthesis" by Natalie Yau et al.

Episode intro and outro music: "Life Progression" by Shaolin Dub (no changes or modifications were made)

Theme music: "Everything Feels New" by Evgeny Bardyuzha.

All episodes written and produced by Kristen Hovet.

To submit a question to possibly be answered in a future episode, please email kristen.hovet@gmail.com

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Transcript

Kristen Hovet  
Happy weekend. Today I'm speaking with Leslie, a listener of the podcast. I'm super excited to share our conversation. But before I do, I have one sort of announcement or I guess I should say correction. So in the last episode on adverse drug reactions and autism, I incorrectly called the CYP2D6 enzyme and gene CYP2DC. I think I did this about two times before switching over again to the correct name. I think I introduced it correctly, and then I kind of switched back and forth. I'm not sure why I did that, but I had many gene and enzyme names on my mind that day. CYP2D6 does have many aliases, but I don't think CYP2DC is one of them. I want to formally apologize, CYP2D6. You don't deserve this kind of treatment. Let's hear some music, shall we?

Kristen Hovet  
In this episode, you're going to hear a bit of one person's experience with what is called autism self diagnosis. Some people refer to it as a type of informal diagnosis. While self diagnosis is not recommended when it comes to medical conditions or mental health conditions, autism is a bit different, because while we still use the language of diagnosis and assessment and all that, what it's really about is identifying a neurotype. And most people who read about autism do not identify with it or see themselves in it at all, or just barely. So when someone reads or hears about autism, and especially reads or hears the firsthand autobiographical experiences of autistic people, and they see themselves in those experiences and deeply relate to them, they're usually on to something and they're usually not wrong. Of course, there's a chance they might be wrong, because we're all human, but that's usually cleared up through more reading, more research, and more interacting with autistic people. The thing is, autistic people tend to be super detail oriented, and almost all of us become pretty obsessive about finding all there is to know about a subject that catches our interest. The subject of autism is no different. If it's something that we stumbled upon as a possibility for ourselves in adulthood, we usually dive right in super deeply into the autism rabbit hole and stay there for months or even years. We read all we can get our hands on, we watch hours of videos, listen to podcasts created by actually autistic creators, devour research articles in scholarly journals, join online forums, or social media groups all about autism. And it really takes up a huge part of our lives for a very long time, until we finally feel that we have our answer, that we've gotten to the bottom of the question. And even then, we're still usually not satisfied. Cue imposter syndrome, but that's for another episode. And then, if you're like me, autism becomes an increasingly important part of your professional life, your social life, it defines a huge part of who you become as a person. If a person is not autistic, it's very unlikely that they'll experience this, I don't know what you want to call it, autism vortex? Sure, I think that works. Because it really, really sucks an autistic person in. 

Kristen Hovet  
While most self diagnosed autistic folks do plan to eventually get an autism assessment, and they're often on long waiting lists to do so, like a year or more, there are three main reasons why some decide to stick with self diagnosis and don't pursue a formal assessment. The number one reason to avoid a formal diagnosis is fear of not being believed by healthcare professionals. Number two, autism assessment is, in many parts of the world, very, very expensive. And insurance doesn't always cover assessment. If it does, it usually doesn't cover the entire cost. My assessment was $2,000 back in 2019, early 2019, and I think I only got a quarter of that back with the insurance I had at the time. I think my insurance now would have covered a bit more, but still not the whole cost. I think here in British Columbia, where I am, the cost has gone up, and is now closer to $3,000. I've heard of places in the United States charging $4,000 to $6,000, or even more. Whatever the case may be, it's really too expensive. And not everyone has that kind of money just lying around, I would say most people don't. And a third reason for not pursuing formal diagnosis is that some people feel that a formal diagnosis won't change anything for them. Most of the people who fall into this category are older, often retired, and they don't feel that a diagnosis will help them at this point in their lives. They're beyond needing accommodations, for example, in the workplace. So like, what's the point? I've heard some say things like, I've gotten this far. The information I found is enough for me. I'm not going to shell out 1000s of dollars to confirm something I already know. There are other reasons, but those are the main ones I've found in the research and from talking to others about this very thing. Let me just make my stance super, super obvious. I think self diagnosis is valid. The main problem is not with people diagnosing themselves as autistic. The main problem is that there are so many societal barriers to assessment and supports for autistic folks of all ages. For Leslie, the person I'm speaking with today, it sounds like she will be pursuing formal diagnosis in her state of California. Everyone, please say hello to Leslie.

Leslie  
My name is Leslie and I am a freelance graphic designer for about the last 20 years. I work from home with a variety of clients in a variety of niches. And before that I worked in feature animation in California.

Kristen Hovet  
And how did you find the podcast?

Leslie  
I don't recall. I don't recall how I stumbled upon it. Occasionally, I will go down the rabbit hole of women on the spectrum. So it may have been that I was looking at a newsletter or something and clicked on a link and found you. And I listened to a couple of your shows. And I read that, oh, I know! It was an article that you had published about the medical model versus the social model. I thought that was very interesting. 

Kristen Hovet  
You mentioned in your email to me that you kind of stumbled on autism, that you weren't looking for it for yourself in the sense of applying the potential diagnosis to yourself. Could you explain for listeners what you mean by that?

Leslie  
I'm in a relationship with a man, we've been together about 10 years. He has always, or at least since he was younger, in his teens anyway, has identified as being on the spectrum. And, in fact, he worked at a school in San Luis Obispo, California called The Sunshine School, I think, where he was a mentor and chaperone for young people on the spectrum. And that was when he really started to understand his own diagnosis better because he saw, reflected in these young people, things that he had experienced in his own life. Also my brother, about 10 years ago, came to me and he was talking to me about a movie that he'd seen, I think it was Claire Danes was doing this story of Temple Grandin's life. He really identified with that. So I did a bunch of reading, books that he shared with me. I was like, oh yes, oh yes, checking, you know, I just went rifling through all of the experiences. We went to college during the same time for a couple of years. So yes, I thought his diagnosis was dead on. And I thought, well, you know, I've got social anxiety. So there were things that were relevant to me, but I was really reading more for, you know, trying to make a connection with what he was experiencing. Cut to the first months of COVID lock down, and I was kind of obsessively looking at mask making videos. Even though I don't have a working sewing machine at home, I was watching video after video after video to find just the best one, because I was really concerned that my family be protected. So I was going to make masks for all of us. So I was looking at a bunch of YouTube videos. This was a process that, you know, that happened over several weeks and I was, you know, watching the same videos twice and three times. And YouTube, I don't know if it was the 20th mask making video or the 25th mask making video, but their algorithms said, you might want to send her the autism stuff! There was an interviewer or blogger from the UK, The Aspie World, and he was interviewing a young tattoo artist, a young female. So for whatever reason, I clicked on it. And, you know, in a very, very short period of time, I just had a head exploding moment. She was talking about things that resonated with me, but that I'd never spoken aloud to another human being. When people around you are not talking about dissociating into fantasy on an hourly, daily, regular basis, you just don't share that stuff, you know, you don't talk about those things. But she was talking about things that just resonated with me very strongly. So I took some of the online tests, not everything resonated with me, but there was enough that I went, k, this is worth looking into some more.

Kristen Hovet  
You mentioned that having that knowledge also changed your relationship with your partner. In what ways did it change your relationship?

Leslie  
I think he had suspected, because of his background, he had suspected almost from the moment that we met, I had certain tells, you know, certain mannerisms and things. He knew me well enough to know that telling me that he thought I might be autistic was not the way to go about the conversation. So I came to him with my revelation. And he said, okay, let's talk. Okay, this is old news to me, I pretty much have known this for a really long time. I listen to a lot of audiobooks. Because I'm a graphic designer and I work from home, I can engage that part of my brain without disrupting my creative work. So I listened to a lot of audiobooks about women on the spectrum and, as I started to understand that this related to me, I started to understand my own traits, I started to understand his as well. Now, he told me many years before, almost from the beginning, that he believed he was on a spectrum, that he identified as autistic, but that was data. But I had no context for it. You know, I had no context for some of his behaviors, that he was just Michael, he was just the way he is. And when I started to understand my own traits, I started to recognize and understand more of what he was putting out. It has deepened our relationship, in a way. We were always compatible, but now we understand each other better, where these tension points come from. And it's not even the tension stuff, I mean, the fact that we have a very odd sense of humor that we've always shared, and nobody else seems to get quite how brilliantly absurd life and everything is. So now there's a context for that.

Kristen Hovet  
I've had discussions with people that, you know, people who are late diagnosed, they look back and they go, actually, you know, all of my relationships have probably been with a neurodivergent person in some way, shape or form. Like, either they were autistic or ADHD or both, usually not diagnosed. Would you say that, if you look back, friendships, relationships, would you say that there's sort of an affinity or attraction?

Leslie  
I definitely am attracted to people who are different and I never would have said neurodivergent. I work in an industry of creative people, so I never necessarily identified them as being atypical neurologically. But I do have one friend that, once I started reading about autism, I was like, oh, my god, I wonder if he knows!? Because he's very, very, very much on the spectrum, in the most delightful ways. Did that answer your question? I'm not sure.

Kristen Hovet  
Yeah, yeah. No, I'm just curious, because I remember, I remember someone telling me like, someone who wasn't autistic saying, oh, yeah, usually an autistic person is paired with a non autistic person. And I'm like, I don't know if that's totally true. Maybe they're just not diagnosed. Because there's just, in my experience, there's just such an ease of understanding, usually, with other autistic people.

Leslie  
And I think my previous relationships, that was not a factor, there was not an ease of understanding. But I thought I was the normal one.

Kristen Hovet  
Right! Yeah. If we could switch gears a little bit, I'm interested in what were you like as a child? What autistic traits did you have as a very young person that you look back and go, oh yeah, that's what that was?

Leslie  
From a very early age, I sort of rejected gender roles. I was just a tomboy and there was no getting me in a dress. And I was very athletic, and very capable, very strong physically. And I never understood why that was good for boys, and bad for girls. I never understood being the source of humor because I was doing the same things that the boys were doing, and that somehow that was a negative because I was a girl. Never understood that, still don't understand it, as much as I understand, you know, gender roles. But, um, so there was that, and then the aforementioned, I mean, I had a deep and abiding love of telling myself stories, telling stories, in my head, sort of dissociating into fantasy, at the drop of a hat. I mean, I would go to school, and I'd be doing all the things that you do out in public. And then the moment I, you know, the moment there was nobody else around, I would just sort of flip a switch, and I would be a party in a fantasy of my own making, that was from a different time and space. Never talked to anybody about that, that was not, you know, that was not something that I talked about. Some of the other things as a kid, I mean, I've always been very stubborn, I guess, and sort of, you know, fixated on not just my way is the right way, not that so much, but that there is a way to do things, and everything else is outside of that. So really a little bit of rigid thinking about certain things, but very open minded in other ways. I was a leader, but nobody was really following. You know, I had strong opinions and, you know, I consider myself a reasonably intelligent person, but I probably was not really as smart as I thought I was, or maybe other people didn't think I was as smart as I thought I was.

Kristen Hovet  
In terms of sensory things, did you have any, you know, differences there?

Leslie  
I've always had a sensitivity to noise. Again, until I started to understand that that's not just a me thing, that's an us thing, people on the spectrum, I just put up with it, you know. I never had, you know, those moments of meltdown or breaking down because of sensory overload, I just would prefer not to be in those spaces. As much as I like being around people, and I can be in a, you know, in a party situation or something. You know, clubs are just really noise, fireworks, love to look at them, prefer not to listen to them.

Kristen Hovet  
Mmm-hmm. You've mentioned your partner, you've mentioned your brother as well, and talking about autism. Have you told a lot of other people in your life about you being autistic or feeling that you are, or identifying as autistic? And what have their responses been?

Leslie  
I started by telling my family. I told a colleague, and she said, don't tell anybody else, don't tell anybody. And I thought, okay, you know, I had to think about that and I thought, well, I understand where she's coming from because she knows, she's neurotypical, you know. She understands that people would see me differently, and not necessarily put in the work to understand. So, from her perspective, that was good advice. I'm not so sure that that's how I want to move forward. But I did tell my family and, very recently, I started to talk with my nephew. You know, I just sort of put it out there in little, little bits, you know, like, a trail of crumbs. And then recently, I sat with my nephew and my sister and talked about these things. You know, he's 30, so autism and the awareness about autism and Asperger's is really something that has been happening in his youth and adult life. So he kind of was like, I'm having trouble seeing it, you know, I'm having trouble seeing it. And I get that a lot from other people, you know, because I've started to tell close friends. So it kind of depends on how much they know about autism when I say it, because you can almost see them thinking, you don't look autistic, you know, or you haven't had a meltdown. You know, you don't do these things. But I have another friend who has autistic members of her family. Just like water, water off a duck's back. She's like, oh, yeah, okay, I get it, I can see it, you know. Or maybe not, I can see it, but it wasn't a revelation to her. I just let her know that she's always been a safe space for me and I really appreciated the fact that she didn't respond with, well, we're all a little bit this or a little bit that. And I'm still figuring it out. I do think that, for me, we need to move the culture forward by being brave. I was listening to Elton John when I was driving home the other day, and I thought about, he came into my world at 12 years old, when I was 12 years old, at a time in the 70s when nobody was openly gay, you know, and I watched as he kind of struggled to become who we all know him to be now. But he and others like him had to be honest, you know, ultimately even being dragged through the court of public opinion on a global scale. But changes have been made because people were brave about their truth. I think that's probably going to, that's going to be my challenge, you know, is finding the appropriate way, because I certainly don't want to do a disservice to those people out there, wherever they are on the spectrum. But I think we have to be brave so that people will come to understand. Like my nephew, you know, he was like, well, you know, it's cool, but I'm having trouble reconciling this with the person that I know.

Kristen Hovet  
Do you wish you would have known earlier? Do you wish you were diagnosed as a child?

Leslie  
Not when I was a child! Absolutely not! Absolutely not. When I first had this realization, it was such a relief. That was the overwhelming feeling was that it was just a relief to finally have a context in which to place these things that I've struggled with my whole life. I am of reasonable intelligence, and why I could be so smart and so stupid at the same time, and struggle with things that other people managed, it was a huge relief for me. But if I think back about, first of all, there is no support, there's still no support, for people who are beyond childhood, being diagnosed. Podcasts and people like yourself are probably making that different. But I might not have gotten as far if I had people telling me that there was some limit to my abilities, you know, so I'm not sorry that I wasn't diagnosed earlier in childhood. I'm a little sad that I wasn't diagnosed maybe in my 40s, when I could have started to make some changes that would have helped me at this stage in my life.

Kristen Hovet  
I know you've talked a bit about it, but if you could list the top three challenges that you feel you would attribute to being neurodivergent.

Leslie  
The main one is the inability to make social connections that feed into professional connections. For many years, you know, almost 20 years of my life, I worked in animation production, and I was good at what I did, I was focused, I had a good reputation, but I never tried to make friends with anybody who could do me any good. I found that to be a little offensive, you know, to pretend to be friends with someone because they might help your career.

Kristen Hovet  
Right.

Leslie  
But what that means is, I suppose there's a way to do that that's benign without being, you know, dishonest. There's a way to do that, and I never did. So when I got to a point at 40 when I needed to either get another job in animation or pivot to something else, I didn't have any support, any connections to help facilitate that. The other challenge would be, and it's also a social thing, that I didn't really understand that relationships need tending. And I have, sadly, left a trail, not a long trail, but a trail of people that I really, really cared about and love and still love to this day. But, because I didn't do my part to tend to the relationship, they, as is expected in typical society, there's a lot of bad feeling and hurt there that I've caused, completely inadvertently, but because I didn't understand how to tend to relationships. I guess those are the two and then just the chaotic brain. I live in artful chaos, but it is. It is. It is chaotic. It's chaotic. I can't keep my space clean for 24 hours. I can clean it and then 24 hours later, there's, you know, clothes on the bed and whatever because my brain is so busy that I don't handle one thing at a time to fruition. You know, I do a little bit here, a little bit there, and so, you know, it's always chaotic.

Kristen Hovet  
What's your least favorite myth or stereotype about autism or autistic people?

Leslie  
You know, I'm still learning what all of those things are, but I guess the one that comes to mind, and I alluded to it earlier, is that dismissive, we all have this or we all have that at any given time. I see autism spectrum as like the HomeTown Buffet of behaviors and sort of neurotypical stuff. And sure, you can take a scoop of social anxiety and put it on your plate, and then say, we all have social anxiety. But unless you take, you know, unless you FILL your plate with these traits, you really don't understand what it's like to be on the spectrum.

Kristen Hovet  
Right, totally. Have you come across any books or films or any other content that's been really helpful for you? I know you mentioned some videos and books as well.

Leslie  
Well, The Aspie World is a great one. I've found quite a few videos there. And Cheryl Davies is the young tattoo artist, she was a part of Big Brother, a reality TV show in the UK. I've never seen it but she speaks very eloquently. And Autism in Heels is one I can think of. Odd Girl Out, that was really good. And every single one of them just sort of reinforced for me that there was there there because I've been listening and listening. And then, you know, something would drop that just resonated so deeply that it couldn't just be coincidence.

Kristen Hovet  
I remember when I was filling out questionnaires online about like, are you autistic, I was looking at it for a family member. And then I just kind of filled it out for fun and scored a bit closer to autistic than I thought I was going to, but I never scored very highly. And I think some of it was like, you know, at the time, I was filling it out, I thought that a lot of my traits were very normal like everyone else, because there's people in my family who are probably autistic as well, or have other similar traits. I grew up with that, surrounded, I thought everyone was like this. So why would I, you know, answer like, are you, you know, this way or that way? Like, well, I'm like everyone else. So. And then I sort of realized, no, I'm not. Not at all. So yeah, I don't know, if you if you had that type of experience with questionnaires, or if they kind of evolved over time. 

Kristen Hovet  
I'm just gonna jump in to explain what I meant here, but didn't explain very well in the moment. Although I saw that Leslie knew exactly what I meant, so I didn't have to explain further when speaking with her over Zoom. So when I was filling out online autism screener tests, long before I was ever diagnosed, and test items said things like, I often notice small sounds when others do not, I would answer slightly disagree or even totally disagree, because at the time, my closest family members and friends were all super sensitive to sounds and other sensory stimuli. And so I never saw my heightened awareness of sensory stimuli as abnormal, at least not when I was answering those test items. There were other items that I did respond very autistically to, if that makes sense. And so that's probably why I actually scored as potentially autistic or close to the middle between neurotypical and autistic when I took those tests. I recall thinking something was wrong, so would do the tests over and over again, and yet still get the same results. And, of course, none of those tests were official diagnostic tests. They were just screeners available for free online. As my social network expanded, and I ran into more types of people and apparently, in my case, more neurotypicals, I realized that I was indeed much, much more sensitive to sensory stimuli than most others, like shockingly so, in that I was floored to learn that others were able to filter out unwanted sensory stimuli. It's still shocking and unbelievable to me. Other questions that would trip me up were things like, do you have routines that you NEED to follow? I would say no or uncertain at the time, because I had never gotten feedback from others about my own sometimes rigid routines. And, again, others around me were all like this, so how would I be able to compare myself? When I did, I just seemed like everyone else, so therefore normal. I thought everyone had those same types of behaviors and so why would I see them as rigid or even as routines, really? These were just things I did, like brushing my teeth. Everyone has these things, I thought. It's the NEEDING to follow these routines and the impact to the nervous system when the routines are not followed that mark an autistic person from a neurotypical. What do I mean by that? Well, I can easily diverge from my routines. And I do so quite often, because I love new experiences and love to travel. And, of course, when you do those things, when you leave your house, and you're staying elsewhere, you have to give up quite a lot of your normal everyday routines. But I experience that as super disruptive. I might get really agitated, although I work really hard to keep that in so others don't see it. I might experience emotions that are all over the place or challenging to regulate. I definitely don't sleep. I might have more trouble expressing myself or articulating my thoughts. I might go a little bit nonverbal or have real trouble communicating my wants, needs, ideas, thoughts, you name it. And it can take weeks for me to get used to new routines, new patterns, new timelines, everything like that. So while I like to think of myself as flexible, in some regards, the effect on my being is dramatic, I would say. In other words, not following specific routines, for an autistic person, is highly disruptive to their overall homeostasis, the balance of their entire beings, physical, emotional, cognitive, you know, all that, you name it. It all gets thrown out of whack when those routines are not followed. And there's also a sense of instability that comes with it because there's a loss of control. And, for many of us, we've experienced trauma and things where having control of our routines, of our environments, is comforting, and something that we can rely on to bring us comfort, when most of our days might not be all that comforting.

Leslie  
I did do a couple of the questionnaires and I had enough responses in the affirmative in each one of the categories. Some of them didn't apply to me at all. But there was something in each one of the categories, I went, oh, oh, yeah. Okay, yeah. We'll give that a check mark! So, I did find a professional here in California who I will probably reach out to, in the near future, to have a formal assessment done. You know, it doesn't matter at this point, I don't know what kind of support there is for somebody my age. And now that I know, I think between myself and partner, we can find whatever accommodations we need to for each other. But I would like to know. It's not going to change my understanding of it for myself, but it could help people who know me and love me to stop thinking in their mind that this is somehow an excuse. You know, it's sad to say, but I understand it, you know, I get it. I would like to put those fears to rest.

Kristen Hovet  
And what message do you have for others who are just starting their diagnosis journey?

Leslie  
I've kind of come down on the side of, we really don't need to try to be normal, as if we could, you know. But I've spent so much of my life standing outside and trying to get in, you know, trying to make connections with people and being really bad at it. And that, of course, depends on the person. But I'd say find your tribe, find your people. They don't have to all be on the spectrum. But find your people, whoever they are, wherever they are, whether they're neurotypicals who have, you know, empathy, for your struggle, because they're struggling with something, they're not struggling with the same thing, but they're struggling with something. And if they can be empathetic, bring them into your tribe and make them an honorary member. But normal? That, to me, that's just sort of the lowest common denominator. And why, you know, why would we settle for that? When we've been given, I mean, I don't know for everybody, but with all of the things that I struggle with, I believe that part of my creativity, as an artist, as a designer, and my focus for long periods of time which makes it possible for me to drive deep down and get those solutions that are really resonant, I think that has got to be a part of my autism as well. So it's like, you know, life gives with one hand and takes away with the other. But find your balance, you know, find that balance. Don't waste any time trying to be normal. Just be you. Lean into your strengths, work on your deficits. 

Kristen Hovet  
That leads me to the next question, which was, we talked about the top three kind of challenges. What would you say would be the top three gifts that you would associate with being autistic, for you personally?

Leslie  
For sure it's creativity and an affinity for things that are different. I just purchased my first new car in my life, and it's a Kia Soul. And I thought, I love this car. There were only three on my list and they're very ugly cars. But I love that. They're like an ugly pug, you know, they're like an ugly dog. They're so ugly! I love that I have an affinity for things that aren't predictably ordinary. I seek out those things that are different. So that's one of the good things because life is really interesting that way. The other thing, and this goes counter to everything that I've read, but I did just see something about it recently, that some women on the spectrum are considered empaths. The opposite of lacking empathy, they have too much empathy. And I think that categorized me as a young girl. I could always find the humanity in people who had different opinions than I did. I could almost see, in every subject, there were six different ways to see every subject. There were six different point of views and I saw them almost simultaneously, which gives me a very broad and very open perspective on life. And the other one is, that because of that, when I find people that I connect with, I either connect with them almost instantaneously, or it's always work. We can be friendly, we can be friends, but my real connections are those that happen in the blink of an eye. And what they all have in common is an open heart, you know, they don't have an agenda. I mean, I find this out later, that instantaneous I trust you. I don't know why. But I trust you. And that's been a gift. You know, that's really been a gift. I've been misled once or twice, but not very often. And those people are more precious to me than anything.

Kristen Hovet  
When I was reading about autism, that was the one because it kept saying, lacks empathy. And I'm like, well, I'm so empathetic, it hurts. I go through life in pain, because I'm feeling everyone else's stuff. Yeah, that was the number one hurdle, I think, for me with a lot of the things I read. Have you come across - you probably have with the amount of content you've now read and watched - masking and camouflaging?

Leslie  
If I've done it, I've done it for so long and so instinctually, that I can't really put my finger on where it lives, you know, I can't find that thread to sort of start to pick at it. You know, let me start unmasking. Yeah, I've not masked my traits because I didn't recognize my traits as traits. They were just who I was. So yes, I dialed down the volume, but I didn't really recognize my traits as traits. So I was just bouncing around trying to make connections with people and really not all that aware of why those connections didn't take.

Kristen Hovet  
For me, it was like, yeah, because I wasn't diagnosed till I was 38 ,it was like, which behavior is from what and why am I doing it? And I guess, you know, I looked back, it's taken a while. I guess things like forcing myself to make small talk is one way, like things that are uncomfortable for me but I do them for the sake of the other person because I've somehow learned to, like, you're supposed to, as a girl, as a woman, you're supposed to do these things to make people comfortable. And I know maybe they're hard for neurotypicals, too, but it was very hard for me, to the point where sometimes I would get burnout just from all the things stacking up.

Leslie  
Right. That's one. You know, I said I can't mask what I'm not ashamed of or not afraid of. I still cannot, I go right into the deep end of the conversation. If you can't hang with me there, you know, make an excuse and go to the bathroom because I can get buoyant, but I cannot stay at the surface for very long.

Kristen Hovet  
Totally.

Leslie  
Yeah, I can't. Can't do it. And I think that's really off putting for people who, I was just thinking about this the other day, must try to find a way to sparkle in the conversational game without ever saying anything real! 

Kristen Hovet  
I know, yep!

Leslie  
Like, oh my god, talk about let's dog paddle. There's nothing more exhausting than dog paddling! So I don't know, I was thinking about that one the other day.

Kristen Hovet  
Mmm-hmm, yeah, cuz it catches people off guard and you're just like, oh, great. They'll be like, oh, you're so intense! What would you like to see happen in terms of public perception or public understanding of autism? I know we kind of touched on it. But how would you like to see things change?

Leslie  
Well, I'd like to see there be more information out there and more ways for us to connect with one another. I thought about starting a group for women on the spectrum who are also in visual arts, but I wouldn't know the first place to go. I think those conversations would be fascinating, you know, maybe not. But I think they would be fascinating! But I wouldn't know the first place to begin to find women on the spectrum or women in the creative arts who are also on the spectrum, I wouldn't know where to begin. So it'd be nice for there to be more access. It would be nice if we could turn this around for people to appreciate that people on the spectrum may have what we're calling deficits, but really identifying what our strengths are. And I feel like we need to be able to find our place in the world based on our strengths, not on these perceived deficits. I don't think that's all that unrealistic. I can do what I do, and do what I love all day long, you know. I'm a workhorse. But put me in a meeting where I have to talk to people, I'll either be very, very quiet, or I'll just get out and have to smoke a lot of cigarettes. But I can do what I do to a very high degree. There oughta be a way to leverage that because I think we're all given gifts that are meant to sustain us. I just think that's how creation has got to work, you know, that we all have something that is meant for us to sustain ourselves. But, yeah, finding people a place to be valued, I think, is important for everybody, not just people who are atypical.

Kristen Hovet  
Thank you so much for sharing your story. 

Leslie  
Well, thank you, Kristen!

Kristen Hovet  
Yeah, this is great! 

Kristen Hovet  
Well, I think that's all I have for you today. I have a few more interviews lined up and some more emails that have come in. So this interview was really fun. I'm looking forward to more. If you would like to tell your story on the podcast, please get in touch. Again, the email's in the show notes. I'd love to hear from you. Thank you so much for being here. Oh, I also wanted to let everyone know that Leslie's reading list is in the show notes. The links I added are for Amazon Canada. I hope they take you to the right place when you click on them. If they don't, let me know, I can add the amazon.com links as well. Leslie said that she listened to these through Audible and found those very enjoyable. So that might be something you also want to do if you like Audible, if you like listening to your books. Okay.

Kristen Hovet  
Until next time, bye.