Autistic Masking, Motherhood, and Radical Acceptance with Julie M. Green

Julie M. Green's son was diagnosed autistic at three. She wasn't diagnosed until 44 — almost a decade of advocating fiercely for her child's needs while missing her own. In this episode, we talk about why that gap is so common, and what finally closed it for her.

For Julie, recognition didn't arrive in a single lightning-bolt moment. It came slowly, over years of small things adding up — until meeting another late-diagnosed autistic woman gave her a model she'd never had for what autism could actually look like. We talk about masking and why it's not a conscious choice, the survival strategy of becoming the "quiet girl" who stays small to avoid getting anything wrong, and the way that same people-pleasing can quietly open a person up to harm.

We also cover the things that often go unspoken: alexithymia, the difficulty of naming your own emotions even when you feel them intensely; face blindness and the social minefield it creates; and the particular weight of maternal guilt when you don't yet know why parenting feels so much harder for you than it seems to for everyone else. Julie shares how she's reframed burnout, why she now believes modelling rest matters more than martyring herself for her son, and what radical acceptance really looks like, including on the days it still feels out of reach.

If you'd like to know more about Julie M. Green's work, check out:

Her memoir, Motherness: A Memoir of Generational Autism, Parenthood, and Radical Acceptance

Her weekly Substack newsletter, The Autistic Mom

Her article in The Globe and Mail, "Receiving an Autism Diagnosis as an Adult Is Not 'Trendy'"

Julie M. Green on Instagram

Julie M. Green's website

Theme music: "Everything Feels New" by Evgeny Bardyuzha.

All episodes written and produced by Kristen Hovet.

Send in your questions to otherautism@gmail.com

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The views, opinions, and experiences shared by guests on this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of the host or production team. The content is intended for informational purposes only and should not be taken as medical or professional advice. Please consult with a qualified healthcare provider before making any decisions related to your health, fitness, or wellness. 

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

Kristen Hovet 0:00

Today's guest is someone whose story sits right at the heart of what this podcast has always tried to do. Take the late autism diagnosis experience seriously in all its mess and validation and grief and relief all at once. Julie M. Green is a writer based in Ontario, Canada. Her memoir, Motherness, was named a CBC Best Nonfiction Book of the Year, an Audible Best Audiobook, a number one Amazon bestseller on the disability memoir list, a finalist for the Foreword Indies Book of the Year Award, and the Next Generation Indie Book Award. Her writing has been published in the Washington Post, The Globe and Mail, HuffPost, and Chatelaine. And in 2024, she was a finalist for the CBC Nonfiction Prize. Julie has appeared on numerous podcasts and platforms, including Global News, CBC Radio, Uniquely Human, and TVOs Mistreated. Please say hello to Julie M. Green.

Julie M. Green 0:58

My name is Julie M. Green. I'm a writer and I am the author of Motherness, a memoir of generational autism, parenthood, and radical acceptance, which came out in September of last year with ECW Press. And I live with my family in Kingston, Ontario.

Kristen Hovet 1:18

Thank you so much. I know that your son was diagnosed as autistic at age three. And then you were diagnosed almost a decade later when you were 44. Can you take me back to the moment you started wondering whether the diagnosis that fit him might also fit you? What was that internal process like?

Julie M. Green 1:40

Yeah, um, it was actually just not even a single moment. As it took 10 years. So it was a lot of tiny little niggling things, I guess, in the back of my mind where I would relate to certain things, you know, for a lot of sensory things in particular, because in in many ways, my son was just so different. He more fit like the classical version of autism that we've seen in, you know, in the literature and the media, you know, lining things up. And he was into the the Thomas trains and all of these things. So I never um none of that resonated for me at all.

Recognizing Autism In Yourself

Julie M. Green 2:20

But for instance, you know, uh, we were both incredibly sensitive to sound and we both cover our ears and we're both very sensitive to to clothing and fabric. And I had always known I was, I was always told I was too sensitive and very, very like overly sensitive, but I never really saw that as being kind of an autism issue because again, so little, so little was known. So I was thinking, okay, autism is, you know, you're rocking in a corner, or you know, you're lining up trains, or you're counting cards, or you know, all of the Rain Man stereotypes. I didn't really have any inkling whatsoever until basically 10 years down the line when I finally had met an autistic woman who was diagnosed, I think maybe she was in her early 30s. And I thought, oh, okay. So it doesn't have to look exactly like this one depiction that we've seen. The more I saw these correlations with my son that were similar, then I started to think, okay, well, maybe there's something going on here as opposed to you just being an extremely weird and sensitive girl.

Kristen Hovet 3:33

Thank you. And I guess also what did what were your next steps after that, after realizing like how long between when you first thought I could also be autistic to then actually reaching out and getting an assessment?

Julie M. Green 3:49

Yeah. Well, I think that's the thing. When it's later in life, you have this sense of, well, I've come this far. And it just didn't feel like uh a very pressing issue. At the time, it was just advocating and doing all the things for my son and trying to get a an educational placement that worked for him. We were fighting kind of the immediate fires, you know, also just getting to know more about autism and more about how to help our son. So really everything with me was very much on the back burner. I still had the issues, you know, that I'd always had. I'd always had the same challenges, you know, with anxiety and health issues like migraines. So I was still, you know, always struggling in the same sense that I've always struggled, but that, you know, your own needs take a backseat as they do when you're when you're a parent anyway, especially when your child is in those younger years. So really it was probably maybe five years where it was always in the back of my head, but I didn't actually do anything about it until it was maybe a year before uh COVID hit. And I'd had a this chat with my GP. And um, she had been my family doctor for a long time. So she knew about my son, she knew about you know, my whole like checkered medical history. So she didn't really balk at the idea of me having this referral for an assessment, which was good, you know, because I know in many cases women, you know, will just be gaslit and the doctor will say, Well, you know, you have a career or you know, you're married. There's no way you can be autistic. So she referred me for the assessment, and then life got in the way again and we moved and the pandemic happened, and then suddenly I got this phone call saying, Oh, remember this referral, you're going to have this assessment. So that was about a year after my doctor had referred me. And then it obviously uh then the results came back in the long report. And I was surprised, but also not surprised, to see that it was confirmed. It's strange, it's it's everything at once, you know, all at the same time. Because even though I believed it to be true and I suspected it, reading the words was still like, really? Really? I don't know. I forget what the grading scale was as well, but I remember thinking, wow, I'm a little bit maybe more autistic than I thought.

Kristen Hovet 6:15

So a combination of doubt and validation at once. That's kind of what it sounds like.

Julie M. Green 6:21

All the things, yeah.

Kristen Hovet 6:22

So you write about something a lot of autistic people recognize, and that's advocating fiercely for your child while not necessarily recognizing the same traits in yourself, at least at first, because you're so focused on their needs, um, as you mentioned as well. So, why do you think that blind spot is so common in our population, in our community? And um, what finally broke through yours?

Julie M. Green 6:47

Well, I think definitely, as you say, your child's needs are always meant to come before yours. But of course, what we don't realize is, you know, you can't be an effective parent if you're in burnout or if you're struggling. And yet, you know, particularly moms, we're terrible, um, whether we're neurodivergent or not, we're kind of terrible at self-care. And I think for me, it kind of coincided, fortunately or unfortunately, as it does for a lot of women at 44, you know, once perimenopause hits and suddenly you're barely clinging on with these coping mechanisms that you've developed through life, and suddenly you find that everything is kind of flared up and things are harder because it really is like a second adolescence. I have found that, and I know this is the case for a lot of women in particular, this is when they are diagnosed because

Assessment Delays And Perimenopause

Julie M. Green 7:45

everything seems to just get so much harder. Um, your sensory issues intensify, your executive function skills just drop, the brain fog, like everything is amplified. So, what you may have been able to ignore or just about get by before, those things kind of come crashing down. And you're like, why am I having such a hard time? So, I think that's why for a lot of people, um, that coincides with this realization and this late diagnosis, because you may have been masking or you may have been just getting by before, and then suddenly you find yourself in burnout, or you you find these autistic traits are kind of intensified and amplified in a way that they maybe weren't since you were younger, you know, maybe since your childhood or teen years, again in other stages of flux, hormonally or developmentally.

Kristen Hovet 8:39

You also mentioned masking. So I know that's a thread that you talk about in your book. So looking back now, what do you think masking cost you? And is there anything it gave you that you're sometimes maybe reluctant to admit?

Julie M. Green 8:53

You know, masking in some ways, at first glance, it does seem like a gift because outwardly the systems in our world really do reward you if you can mask. You know, you can maybe get through a job interview and you can kind of put on that face to get the job and to maybe even do the job. Whereas, for instance, you know, my son would have a harder time masking, people would know right away. So he would, he would probably face more barriers right at the gate in terms of discrimination and maybe not even getting past an interview, or even maybe not even getting an interview. Whereas I might be able to play the part socially and get through some of these systemic barriers, but then

Masking Benefits And Real Costs

Julie M. Green 9:40

it would end up biting me in the end because I would I would end up burning out or end I would end up getting sick. And this throughout my 20s and through my teen years, I was I was sick all the time. And I didn't realize at the time, obviously, that what was happening was was due to stress, stress of masking and uh like sensory overwhelm and these things. I just had these mysterious, these mysterious sort of migraine attacks and and throwing up and those really bad attacks that would for some reason be linked to like social occasions or happy occasions, or you know, I just couldn't get through a regular nine to five the way other people could. I was just always, always getting sick. So to me, that was like very much just a physical ailment. And I hadn't connected the dots that it was a result of the way I was masking, the way I was pushing, always to not even just succeed, but yeah, just just to be able to fit into these systems. So it got me through the door and through these systems, and it even allowed some success, but the fallout was obviously very, very bad in terms of physical health and mental health. And uh again, we're learning it's a really common experience, uh, particularly for women or people who who can mask. So it's uh it's a double-edged sword, absolutely. There are certain occasions where it's like, I think it's beneficial if I have to mask in order maybe to advocate for my son or or to be taken seriously in a certain context. But in the long run, I think it's terrible for your health. And it's also, you know, terrible on a societal level, because what message are we sending if we're not seeing autistic people existing and being authentic, then how are we supposed to have an inclusive society if we're we're not truly seeing people as they are? Long-winded answer!

Kristen Hovet 11:40

No for sure.

Julie M. Green 11:42

I'm passionate about that.

Kristen Hovet 11:44

Yeah! And I'm still, I feel like I'm still developing my view on masking because even personally, I don't always know what the difference is between my masked self and my unmasked self. Like it's it's so deeply ingrained. And the other part that I wanted to talk about was like, I've gotten some comments, some kind of nasty comments online about uh not from autistic people, but about masking and how we do it on purpose to dupe others. And it's so not that, especially prior to uh identifying as autistic or or being diagnosed as autistic, we had no no notion that that's what we're doing. We're not purposely doing it. Like in my mind, at least I thought everyone has to do this to get by and I'm I'm maybe just bad at it or something if I have all these repercussions from being out in the world, you know? So there's just so many, so many misconceptions about it.

Julie M. Green 12:39

Absolutely. It's not a conscious thing at all because I think it's it just starts so early. It starts in childhood. It's that instinct to want to fit in, and you realize if you do something else, then you'll either be ridiculed or you'll be excluded. Or, you know, I think it's just a very human instinct to want to fit in. And it's it's not often, as you say, a conscious thing. And I mean, it's it's complex as well, I think, because especially for females, wrapped up in all of that is like just the people pleasing and the perfectionism. I feel like unraveling that it's quite a few layers. So even just beyond masking, there's that idea of fitting in, but there's also just wanting to be a good girl, wanting to not disappoint or upset people. And so much of this is is just ingrained in us from the time we're really, really young. So bringing that to a conscious level is ...

Kristen Hovet 13:36

Yeah, for sure. And I guess the like fighting another misconception is the the misconception that autistic people are just not aware socially. But it's almost like for me, I was so, and this relates to masking in the sense that I was so hyper aware of others' responses to me that it's like it served as a way to build my mask. It's like, oh, that person doesn't like what I just did. Therefore, I'm gonna do the opposite next time. I was so personally cued into that. I know it's a spectrum for everyone, just how aware they are socially. But that was such a huge piece for me, just being like, oh, there's a reaction. I got to change my behavior.

Julie M. Green 14:15

Yeah, my tactic, I think I learned was basically shyness and muteness. And again, pleasing and and just deferring to other people's needs and interests. So I would be invited along. And I was, I was often, especially in those days, the whole class would get invited to things. But I um I just I think that was my mechanism. You know, when in doubt, if you're not sure what to say and why risk saying the wrong thing, just kind of be there, but hang in the hang by the sides and just go along with whatever other people want. That was that was kind of my tactic for survival in a way. So in a way, I it was lucky because I I did avoid a lot of the more blatant kind of bullying that I think a lot of people experience. But you know, I got it wrong sometimes too, you know, I wouldn't get a joke, or you know, there are other times where yeah, it did, it did come to the surface. But most of the time it would just be like, just be there in the background, just be as pleasing as possible. But now I notice as I'm older, I don't kind of hide behind that shyness now. But there are more situations where there is more awkwardness. There are, but I'm I'm I'm trying to, because if I want to unmask and I know it's healthier, I will genuinely say, I don't understand that. What do you mean? Or, you know, even my husband will be like, be waiting for me to get a joke. Minutes is like crickets, will, you know, but you have to start, you have to start somewhere. But as a child, that was that was kind of the tactic I learned was to really just be the quiet girl. Because if you say nothing, you um you can't, there's no recrimination, there's no chance of getting it wrong.

Kristen Hovet 16:03

Yeah, I identify with that as well. And I feel like there's something else I was I've been thinking about a lot recently is just that people-pleasing element and that we're sort of creating our personality to be quite acquiescent and and meek and mild, and that could potentially open us up to abusive people because I know that that's something I hear a lot, and that's been my own experience of you're just so acquiescent, so people-pleasing, that someone that is not great with their motivations for being around you kind of come into your life. And I think that is is possibly one of the, I guess, origin stories of so many autistic females in particular.

Julie M. Green 16:42

No, it's absolutely, I mean, the research is there, right? We are definitely more vulnerable in terms of sexual abuse and sexual harassment, but even just beyond relationships, like romantic relationships. I think even in friend relationships, you get a lot of power imbalance as a result of that pleasing. And it can be hard to figure out where your boundaries even

People Pleasing And Boundary Blindness

Julie M. Green 17:05

are because sometimes, you know, you've even lost sight of your own, your own needs and your own identity. So you kind of look appealing to people who may have more dominant personalities.

Kristen Hovet 17:16

Your Globe and Mail piece pushes back on the misconception that everyone is autistic these days. What do you want people who say that to understand about what it takes to receive a late diagnosis?

Julie M. Green 17:29

You know, I think with most people, it comes from a good place because I think the instinct for people is to, and I mean, autistic people do this all the time. Someone tells us something, and we go, oh yeah, I know this is how it happened for me. And it's not really about erasure of someone else's experience. It's this wanting to connect. So I'm gonna connect with you by saying I feel something similar, or I've experienced something similar. And yes, I mean people do in varying capacities. We're all humans and we're all sensory beings, we all live in the world. So people will have maybe like a social experience that didn't go so well, or has everyone's just felt awkward at one point or another. But I think when we're talking about a clinical diagnosis,

The Myth Everyone Is Autistic

Julie M. Green 18:20

there is a line in the sand, or has to be where it's not just, yeah, I've occasionally felt like that, or you know, in order to qualify for a diagnosis, it's rated in terms of severity, the intensity and the frequency that you experience issues with communication or social issues, sensory issues, what are called like repetitive behaviors or restricted interests. I'm using all the like clinical language here because I think in a way that is the important thing. It's great that people are empathetic and they're listening to autistic experiences, but you may relate to some aspects of that, but it doesn't actually mean you're autistic too. But I think sometimes people feel like the floodgates have just opened and everyone is now. And where is the line in the sand now? Um, but clinically, that's my understanding of what it is. It's the intensity of how these things affect you. And obviously that looks different to someone in their, you know, in my 40s. It looks different for me than maybe it did when I was a child. Although, as I said, perimenopause is different too because things do intensify. Depends where you're at, and your traits do kind of vary from day to day, but you know, my sensory experience may be more debilitating than someone, for instance, who, you know, doesn't like the taste of a certain food. You have to meet these criteria in a number of categories, and it has to really significantly affect your daily life and functioning. Everyone will experience some of these traits because they're human traits, but it's to what extent.

Kristen Hovet 20:08

Thank you for that. And I feel like it's also kind of invalidating to hear the everyone is autistic these days. It's sort of like it kind of plants that seed of doubt, like maybe they're right, you know. But if you talk about like just the bias of seeing so many different like on social media, you'll go online and see all these people saying, Oh, I was just diagnosed autistic. So just that I think it's called like recency bias. And so it leaves people thinking, like, yeah, I guess it's it's like trendy to be autistic, but it's just that we're catching people who have been missed. Moving on, alexithymia or the difficulty identifying and naming one's own emotions comes up in your book. For many autistic adults, finally having that word for that experience is kind of a revelation. What did understanding alexithymia as a concept change for you?

Julie M. Green 20:57

I don't think it changed the experience so much as just knowing that this is something that goes potentially hand in hand with autism and that other people experience it. So there's no, you know, there's less shame in having that confusion. I think I I'm I'm someone who is very emotional, but pinning down what the emotion is is the harder thing. So yeah, I think it's just, as you say, validating to know that this is a common, common thing. It's not strictly uh confined to people who are autistic, but obviously it's the prevalence is much

Alexithymia Face Blindness And Shame

Julie M. Green 21:40

more, it's much more there. And this was the funny thing, writing the book. There were things that I just didn't know until I sort of started doing the research. And you know, it doesn't change your day to day experience, but I remember also discovering about face blindness, and that again, there's more prevalence with face blindness. It's something I've had and I connected with my son, and then realized it. And it's like it's still very embarrassing and it still happens. But now that I know this is a thing, this is part of autism. Um, it's no less kind of cringe worthy when it happens. But I at least I understand where it's coming from and I know it's there's some validation and knowing it's it's an autism thing and not just a me thing. In my son's case, it was a little bit more severe. Like he would see, we would run into people, friends of mine, usually, people he knew fairly well. But if he saw them in a different context, maybe they'd come and say hello to him and he'd say to me, like, or he'd say to them, Who are you? He absolutely didn't recognize them. And we'd have to say, Oh, that's so-and-so. You know that person. They know you because you know they've met you several times. And to a lesser extent, this happens with me as well. So it's not just not remembering names. I don't, I honestly don't remember a lot of people I've met before. And again, there's like social connotations to that. It can be really embarrassing and people can be quite insulted.

Kristen Hovet 23:07

The alexithymia is interesting too, and reminds me of when I heard this, someone was explaining autism and how it's historically viewed as something that can be seen externally, but it's really an internal condition or difference. It is primarily internal. And so if you just shift that focus from looking for it externally in the person to asking them what their experience is like, uh, that is so key to understanding autism.

Julie M. Green 23:37

And that's that's why, as well, we have a lot of people who on social media are looking and going, well, there's no way that person can be autistic or you know, everyone's autistic. I think that's why we get some of that, because unless it is very external, unless we're seeing outward signs, unless we're seeing, you know, hand flapping or like very outward meltdowns, you don't really know. You know, this is the thing, people wouldn't know. They'll see me here. I can be really articulate. They won't see maybe the toll it will take. They won't see that I have to lie down and decompress, or they won't see when I have a very bad shutdown, or even my own versions of meltdowns, not frequent, but as you say, so much is internal and we don't know what goes on privately behind open doors, you know, and people can have it's it's variable as well. We can have a really good day functionally, and then another day, you know, a lot of us still have imposter syndrome where you think, wow, you know, I can't really be. I mean, I know now, you know, I've written a book, I've been assessed and everything. But even then, some days you you feel so minimally affected, and other days you think, oh, okay, yes, other days are are really hard, and you very, very much feel autistic, but to the outside world, they're not seeing all those internal processes and they're not there in the in the privacy of your room, even to to know what you're struggling with.

Kristen Hovet 25:13

For sure. Yeah, a sort of a newer one for me is uh my role has changed in the past year at work, and it means I have a lot more meetings. And so, and I'm in communications. So at the end of a day of a lot of meetings, I sometimes have trouble finding the right word. And I can sometimes start stumbling over my speech and and or just not able to talk very well, which is funny because I'm in communications, but trying to explain that to other communications folks, I think is a newer issue for me, um, and one that I'm having to contend with now. And like, what can I do differently to reduce the chance of this happening? You write about maternal guilt, shame, and burnout. These are all so common for autistic mothers, and I know other parents as well. I've heard from some autistic fathers who describe these things as well, especially if they're the primary parent. How do you think these show up differently for autistic parents in comparison to neurotypical parents?

Julie M. Green 26:16

I think everyone is really, everyone really feels that, honestly. Um we all feel that that pressure way too much. I think in my case, you know, it's it's very hard to ask for help when you need it. And I I do wonder now sometimes if I'd been diagnosed before I had my son and I had more knowledge of just my own needs and how to would I advocate better, would I look after myself better rather than pushing. My heart goes out to parents who are who are doing this and navigating parenthood solo because

Autistic Parenting Burnout And Guilt

Julie M. Green 26:55

I think part of the beauty, you know, of having a partner is really being able to, and well, having a good partner, I should qualify that. Even since in the years since I've had this awareness of my diagnosis, I've been much better at saying, like, I can't, I need this, I can't handle this. And even to my son saying, you know what, I can do this, but I can't do that, or I need I need this break in between. But when my son was young, it was it was brutal. Um, it's funny because career-wise, I had transitioned to working remotely, and a lot of the struggles that I'd had working in a corporate environment, working in a physical office where I was really, I was in burnout and I was sick all the time, and I didn't know why. I'd I'd transferred all of that and I was working remotely, I had a very flexible work situation, and suddenly like all of that career aspect was gone. I was working as a staff writer, super like efficient, and I was like, wow, this is a revelation. And of course, I wasn't diagnosed and I didn't understand why my work life was suddenly so much better. But then when it came to parenting, like the same patterns emerged. I was in burnout, and it was because I was doing all these things. I was pushing really hard, I was advocating for my son. We were commuting across town, different schools, which was exhausting. Socially, I was doing all the therapies as well. So I was I was the parent taxed with all of that. So I was navigating that and also just the socializing. I was trying to arrange these play dates all the time, take him to birthday parties, all the things that you're supposed to do. And again, so like career-wise, I had figured that out. I was working remotely, I had lost a lot of those triggers that were really just overwhelming me and making me ill. But I had transferred that to, you know, this sort of like hyper parenting where I really wanted to be the best mom, but had no idea of my own uh triggers. And it's so virtuous, right? It's so virtuous to do absolutely everything you can for your child. If you burn out along the way, well, that's that's just the occupational hazard of being a great mom and you do it. And of course, now that my son's a bit older, I realize no, no, no, there's no virtue in that. The virtue, in fact, comes from modeling as an autistic person, or or not even as a neurodivergent person, just as a parent, modeling how to practice self-care, um, modeling what you need when you need rest, how to carve out boundaries for yourself.

Kristen Hovet 29:39

So your your book is Motherness, a memoir of generational autism, parenthood, and radical acceptance. So that radical acceptance is right there in the subtitle. That's a phrase that can sound easy from the outside, but is genuinely hard to do. What did the path to radical acceptance look like for you? And are there days it feels out of reach?

Julie M. Green 30:03

Yeah, um, as I said, I'm still on it. Yeah, I don't think it's um, I don't think it's just suddenly like you get to this destination. I'm there. I've done it. Some of that is enmeshed with the perfectionism as well. And it is obviously easier on the days when everything is ticking along well, but the days when you are really being triggered. And you know, we all have days where we're things are just a lot harder. Again, I I feel like having that recognition for me was such a big piece in helping me not beat myself up over

Radical Acceptance In Real Life

Julie M. Green 30:40

it all the time. Just being able to piece together like you're having a hard time today because of this, and then working out what you need rather than it being a personal failing, or you know, I still have we still have that like internal talk. But I think just understanding the correlation and where it's coming from in terms of autistic traits. You know, I will still resent things some days. I'll resent the fact that I'm more tired than other people, or I can't achieve certain things, or you know, I can't like network maybe in the way that you know, that maybe I'm I'm uh excluded in certain ways, or I'll I'll still resent certain barriers in the world, or just even certain things that I'll feel like are my own shortcomings because of being autistic. But overall, I think I'm a lot more compassionate knowing it's stemming from being autistic and that these are like legitimate, I think, physiological things. Now that I'm I'm starting to equate so much with my nervous system and just this connection with the body, it's less about this like personal failing. And I'm I'm not spending as much time just berating myself in terms of like, well, your personality is this, or you know, like all the ways that it knocks your confidence. The acceptance, you know, of myself and of my son. I mean, that's an ongoing process. Some days when things are going well, it feels easier, but it's not just something you arrive at, you just chip away at it I think. I think it's helped my son as well, modeling and talking about the good things and the bad things, the hard things and the the easier things. And I think he's got much more of an appreciation now of his difference, and he's getting much better at advocating. I've noticeably changed the way I parent him. I think when the younger years, I felt a lot of pressure through the various therapies, and just the narrative out there was so different. And I think the way I parent now is much more focused on connecting with him and talking about this acceptance and showing I accept him rather than judging him or trying to fix him, or constantly this like self-improvement that I think there was so much pressure on me as a parent. And I think he felt a lot of that, and I think it was really damaging to his self-worth, you know, in the same way my own self-worth was affected growing up, just thinking I was I was doing things wrong and that I was wrong. Having that framework is such a game changer and that informs everything. But yes, obviously there are still days when it's really hard and you wish it wasn't hard.

Kristen Hovet 33:26

Yeah. I've found too for myself is having a therapist that is both knowledgeable about autism and also, you know, uses comes from that framework of radical acceptance, helps a lot too. And then for me, the other element that was so, so easy to at least um absorb into my brain and help make a difference for myself was that understanding that we live in an environment that is built for almost like a very extroverted neurotypical, not uh neurodivergent folks, and certainly not introverted neurodivergent folks. Um, so there's a whole generation or two of autistic women right now who are figuring out their own diagnoses partly by recognizing themselves and their traits in their own children. What do you want these parents to know from where you're standing right now?

Julie M. Green 34:16

I guess just that message to cut themselves some slack, you know, just look at themselves and extend a bit of compassion. I think we have so much compassion for our kids in some ways, and we're just so, so hard on ourselves as parents. Generally, when you're raising a neurodivergent child in a world, as you say, that isn't very accommodating. It's so hard to, especially if you you're in a hard place, you feel like that is forever. And it's just realizing that you can be in a hard season and it's it's really just a season. I think the world is still definitely a hard place, but your personal circumstance can things can change.

What Parents And Clinicians Need

Julie M. Green 35:00

We were in a really dark place with my son years ago, and it's just changed so enormously by like focusing on that connection. I think I've really focused on that connection with my child and accepting myself. And I think that has also spilled over to our relationship. You're you know, you're still up against things in the world, and that's frustrating because you can only really work in your own little corner to do what you can. But I think a lot of little people can feel really, really discouraged because they're gonna feel all the pressures everywhere else to change and be someone else. So as long as you're really making sure they have that safe place to land with you as parents, and showing, you know what, that you don't hate yourself, that you can you can start to embrace these autistic traits. I'd like to see more autistic pride. It's pride month for a different way, but it would be nice to for autistic pride to be a thing in time and not to be this mark of shame that people grow up unconsciously masking in order to feel safe.

Kristen Hovet 36:06

Yeah, sort of changing from autism awareness to acceptance to pride and uh celebration, even. If a clinician who still thinks of autism as a primarily male condition picked up your book, Motherness, what would you most want them to take away from that?

Julie M. Green 36:25

Well, they ought to really do their research. And we know now we always say autism is a spectrum, but we're still only looking at this tiny little spot of the spectrum. We're really not looking at it as a spectrum at all, I think. And I think things are getting better. Representation in the media is definitely getting better. There are lots of autistic women now speaking out. And again, like you said, knowing there are different profiles and that it's not going to look a certain way externally, they have to scratch the surface and I think know what they're looking for. I think there are still telltale signs that would point to autism in females that we're learning about. You know, our interests still may be more socially appropriate, but you'll you'll still notice some social difficulties and things if you scratch the surface. You know, you may notice there's more prevalence of things like eating disorders, just a whole host of things. I think even some of the diagnostic testing is starting to, there are testing methodologies to see to what extent they're camouflaging or masking. So I think it's we're starting to realize that autism can look different. And again, you know, not all females present a certain way either. Like I don't want us to slide the other way and think all females look a certain way. I, my presentation was a certain way, doesn't mean it's going to be for others. But again, there are these hallmark criteria for a reason. So females or males will still adhere to those. It just may look slightly different.

Kristen Hovet 38:05

If people want to find you, where can they go?

Julie M. Green 38:07

So I have a weekly newsletter uh Substack called The Autistic Mom. I post uh an essay there every Tuesday. It's free. The archive is paywalled, but it's free every Tuesday. So there's lots of things there about parenting, but also just about being late diagnosed, things through the lens of radical acceptance. Obviously, Motherness is out now everywhere. Yeah, that's pretty much that's pretty much where I'm at.

Kristen Hovet 38:35

If you want more from Julie, as she mentioned, she writes a newsletter on Substack called The Autistic Mom. You can also find her on Instagram at juliem.green. And then Motherness is available everywhere books are sold, and I'll have links to all of this in the show notes. I also want to say a huge thank you to Heath, first fan of The Other Autism. Heath bought me 10 coffees through Buy Me a Coffee. Heath, that is incredibly generous of you. And when I saw the email, I was just like, oh my gosh, Heath, I love

Where To Find Julie And Thanks

Kristen Hovet 39:10

you. And thank you to a mysterious Someone who recently became a monthly supporter of the show, funding one coffee a month through Buy Me a Coffee. And you joined Joe, who was the first monthly supporter who also showed me that Buy Me a Coffee supports monthly support supporting of the show. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I'm very well caffeinated now. Well, that's all I have for you today. Thank you so much for being here. Until next time, bye.