Join us on a captivating exploration of Southern Africa's tech landscape, as I, Michael Kamathi, and my dynamic co-host Sylvia Jebet, host the remarkable Jessica Randal, Africa's Talking Community Lead and Mathematician. Together, we navigate the diverse terrain of technological innovation and community empowerment that is reshaping the continent. Jessica's journey from a love of numbers to the forefront of tech community development is not just inspiring—it's a beacon for those seeking to merge their passions with their careers.
In this episode, we tackle the buzz around emerging technologies and their ethical implications. Android and Kotlin aficionados will revel in the discussion, while novices gain a roadmap to navigating the complexities of these tools. Jessica opens up about her experience in leading tech communities and imparts valuable wisdom on how to cultivate growth and learning through collaborative networks like Women in Tech and Girl Code. The conversation also ventures into the potential of mathematically-inclined individuals to excel in programming, debunking the myth that you need a traditional tech background to thrive in this rapidly advancing field.
As voices from Cape Town's multicultural tech hub, we spotlight the multifaceted nature of the industry, celebrating its ability to adapt and innovate across various sectors. The episode culminates with an emphasis on the human element, which remains at the heart of technological progress. We warmly invite our audience to continue the dialogue by engaging with us across the digital landscape, at Impact Masters Media and Africa's Talking channel, Retorts. Tune in for an enriching dialogue that promises to enlighten, educate, and inspire.
Subscribe and show some love. Ubuntu.
Join us on a captivating exploration of Southern Africa's tech landscape, as I, Michael Kamathi, and my dynamic co-host Sylvia Jebet, host the remarkable Jessica Randal, Africa's Talking Community Lead and Mathematician. Together, we navigate the diverse terrain of technological innovation and community empowerment that is reshaping the continent. Jessica's journey from a love of numbers to the forefront of tech community development is not just inspiring—it's a beacon for those seeking to merge their passions with their careers.
In this episode, we tackle the buzz around emerging technologies and their ethical implications. Android and Kotlin aficionados will revel in the discussion, while novices gain a roadmap to navigating the complexities of these tools. Jessica opens up about her experience in leading tech communities and imparts valuable wisdom on how to cultivate growth and learning through collaborative networks like Women in Tech and Girl Code. The conversation also ventures into the potential of mathematically-inclined individuals to excel in programming, debunking the myth that you need a traditional tech background to thrive in this rapidly advancing field.
As voices from Cape Town's multicultural tech hub, we spotlight the multifaceted nature of the industry, celebrating its ability to adapt and innovate across various sectors. The episode culminates with an emphasis on the human element, which remains at the heart of technological progress. We warmly invite our audience to continue the dialogue by engaging with us across the digital landscape, at Impact Masters Media and Africa's Talking channel, Retorts. Tune in for an enriching dialogue that promises to enlighten, educate, and inspire.
Subscribe and show some love. Ubuntu.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Another beautiful evening. When I take my watch, it's 6 pm in the clock. Beautiful day, the day of the Lord.
Speaker 2:It's me again, michael Kamadi, representing Africa's Talking Impact Masters Podcast, coming live and direct, just talking about tech ecosystem in the Southern Africa, especially Cape Town. Are you ready? Each and every time, we bring you tech makers and movers and shakers, focus Talking provides you communications API, ussd, sms, airtime and data bundles, voice solutions, just to make sure you get 2G solutions across the 54 countries across Africa. And this beautiful evening, I have my co-host, sylvia Dibet, on my far right. It's one amazing guest. She's the community lead in Cape Town, africa's Talking Community Lead, and she's been doing amazing stuff. She is a mathematicianst. Many other titers. Without further ado, I would like to welcome you to this podcast this evening and if you have any questions or you would like to participate on Twitter space, please request to be joining and then we'll add you and listen to you and answer your questions. Welcome aboard. So, sylvie, how are you? Fine? Thank you. Do you want to say hi to our listeners?
Speaker 3:Sure, definitely, definitely. Hello to all those who are listening or tuning in at this point. My name is Sylvia Chabat and I am from Africa's, Talking in the Developer Relations team.
Speaker 2:Very nice, very nice. How are you Jessica?
Speaker 1:I'm very fine, thanks. I'm really excited to be in Nairobi and I'm just really excited to be here and happy to be here and yeah.
Speaker 2:Thank you for visiting. So Jessica is kind of, you know, modest about it. She just came in the day before yesterday. No, yes, yeah. But we said, ok, while she's here, maybe we can do some you know some podcasts, talk to our customers, our friends and all Africans, especially in South Africa, and just talk about the tech ecosystem down there and what can be done, what needs to be done. But before that, we'd like to know who is Jessica.
Speaker 1:Sure, so my name is Jessica Land. Obviously, I'm currently a master's student. I'm in my first year of my master's, which it takes two years. So I'm in my first year of my master's and my topic it's in mathematical science. So, to be specific, I'm doing my master's in algebraic topology. It's a huge word, but it's actually really exciting. It's a huge word but it's actually really exciting. Basically looking at what shapes are and how to extract data from simplexes, and it's just my topic in a nutshell. But other than that, I'm enthusiastic about developing ecosystems. I am really ambitious and I am proud to be African and I believe that there's a lot of talent in Africa.
Speaker 2:Awesome, awesome. And when I say you're modest, you're truly modest, because Jessica is a GDSC alumni. She set up, she was one of the earliest leaders for GDSC in Cape Town. She's also a MLSC alumni I don't know what that means, but sounds cool. But she's going to tell us more about it. And also she's a Women Technica ambassador, a Girl Code ambassador. We have a Google crowdsource influencer and, of course, africa's Talking Community Lead in Cape Town. But please talk a bit more about GTSC you know MLSA to give people more perspective about it.
Speaker 1:Sure. So GDSC stands for Google Student Developer Clubs and basically it's a Google-affiliated community that you start up within your university and it's one year. The term is one year and basically during that time you have to host four events. You can host one event every quarter, but over the time you have to host four events and that's what you need to qualify to become like an official GDC need and get the certificate. But basically it's for anyone who is passionate about technology and wants to enrich the lives of students with their technology and wants to learn more about Google technologies.
Speaker 1:There's no specific major that you have to be, it's just really something that you really would like to do. So that's with Google. And then MRSA is Microsoft Student Learn Ambassador. So I did. I was a Microsoft Student Learn Ambassador, so I did. I was a Microsoft Student Learn Ambassador for Microsoft. They have like a similar structure as Google has, but they've got like different, three different levels. So you have alpha, beta and gold and then obviously, once you reach gold, you can strive to be an MVP within Microsoft, which is also like similar to what you can be a GDE for in Google, but it's really a nice type of community. It's a bit different because it's Microsoft, so you focus on Azure and all the Microsoft products and you learn about their community, but both are equally fulfilling and enriching.
Speaker 2:Very nice, equally fulfilling and enriching, Very nice. So, Jessica, your path is kind of fascinating One. You're among as many ladies across Africa who choose to focus in mathematics. I know there's many good, good mathematicians, but for you it's just pure math and statistics. Yes, Maybe we would love to know your background. Where do you come from? Cape Town, how was it growing up? Because we also believe that most of that experience shapes you to who you are.
Speaker 1:Sure, so I grew up in Cape Town, south Africa. I live currently in Lansdowne, which is close to Athlone, and I had a pretty great childhood. Both my parents are in the education space, I can say that kind of shaped my drive to want to study further and go to university and do postgraduate degrees. I think I started loving math around grade 8 and grade 9. Like I really loved it. I had this one maths teacher, mrs Nau, and she was like the best maths teacher I've ever had. Like she just made everything click and I had her from grade 9 to grade 12 and I was like now I really like maths and I want to see where it takes me. And my dad was also quite influential because he's a maths teacher, so the way he like looks at math problems and conceptualizes it. When I can't quite get it then he would help me with it. But he always encouraged me to like pursue what I love and it just so happened that we both love the same thing.
Speaker 1:So I did aC in maths and stats and I love stats but not as much as math. So I decided to do honours in maths and I did a whole lot of different subjects. It's almost like for your undergrad. You just get an overview of what you do with maths, like you do calculus one, calculus two, calculus three and you just do a lot of applied mathematics. And then when you get to honors you get like a deep dive of what pure maths is and why it's so important and how pure math is actually used to shape applied math, in the sense that all the theorems and like proofs and lemmas build a foundation for how you can apply it in the real world.
Speaker 1:So I like saw the beauty of pure math, which is quite interesting, and then I decided that I do love pure math and I think it's really beautiful, but I want to show how pure math can be applicable to the real world. So then I decided to do my master's in algebraic topology. Because it has real life applications in the health sector, like breast cancer, you can use topology. Because it has real-life applications in the health sector, like breast cancer, you can use topology there. And you can use it in surveys and basically in any large sets of data you can use topological data analysis. So I was really interested in showing or shedding more light on of this math and, surprisingly, this math.
Speaker 3:Well, for me it feels like old math, but it's actually relatively new math in the sense that it's only like maybe was discovered or presented like maybe 50, like 70, 80 years ago, which is considered new yeah so, um, yeah, it's really interesting so um, that's interesting that your love for math started at a really young age, but now, as you grew older, even as you were taking the math courses and doing math in your undergrad and in your master's, somehow you fumbled into tech group and the community is Google and Microsoft. So I think that's also an interesting trajectory. Communities, google and microsoft so I think that's also an interesting trajectory. When did you realize that you could apply your math in the coding and how did you get into that community? Because I'm guessing math has its own communities and you could have easily joined math communities, but there's a lot of tech and clubs yeah, and we'll have to do that okay.
Speaker 1:So I actually was originally a part of. We started a math club at my university UWC Math Club and I was. We were like I was a part of the core team and we were busy creating events for math enthusiasts and then there was like one or two events where the current GDC at that time wanted to work with us and he worked through me and we somehow formed a bond and we've worked on events and things. Um, so I didn't really know much about like the tech space then. And then when it came time, I think he was looking for a new lead like over, and then he asked me if I wouldn't consider applying because and then I was like I was a bit worried because it's like you know, I don't do comp, sci, I don't know everything about tech and I don't like have a developer like I don't know in language specifically, because at the time I only knew art and math lab and SAS, which is like very mathematical, yeah, programs, but it has the foundations of programming. Um, then he was like, just try and apply, it's not so much about how much, how much you know, but it's how you know how to lead a community and be there for your community and shape your community and bring new knowledge to the community that you know they would be interested in. So then I was like, okay, if you would describe like, then I think I understand where I fit in. So then I applied and I was nervous and then I got the acceptance email. I was like, yes, I got in. And then I was like the happiest kid while doing that.
Speaker 1:But while I was going through TDC I did have like a lot of challenges in the sense that everyone else kind of knew like what the events were going to be, because they had that experience in terms of like the comm-sci type of realm or they knew like their community loved cyber security or their community loved those type of things, and mine was like I'd still learn what my community loved and then kind of bring that across in the best way that I know how, depending on who and you at the time. So that was like one of the challenges also, um, sa was in COVID during that time, so we didn't really like allow in-person events. You had to like think out as a fox of how to make like online events fun enough for people to attend or would want to attend. So the content had to be really interesting.
Speaker 1:And then I think the whole experience of GDSC and Microsoft Student Learn Ambassadors kind of brought me to like a standstill, because usually when you think of tech, you just think of, you know, the software programmer that's sitting in front of the computer like coding away. And then I started to learn about new roles like product manager, program manager, dev rel, um development obviously dev rel is for short like all of those different types of um roles, and I said, yeah, I could actually be a part of like those roles, um. And then, like, my passion for tech started to bloom and I well, I'm the type of person that I don't like to be put in a box. So I thought, okay, instead of saying no to math, let's keep math, because I still love math and keep teaching and be a part of both Interesting.
Speaker 2:Very nice. So you said you started really getting that interest that you could do math at grade nine. Right, my question would be around now your parents were teachers, were teaching math Before you really got it. How was that experience? Were they like frustrated that you know you're not getting this math? And how did you really arrive there? Because I'm sure maybe different people across Africa they have these challenges like what do I do? Do I do engineering? Do I do, you know, become a doctor, become an engineer? Because they're like the three main career paths, but also most of them require sciences and actually 90% of them require mathematics. So how was that journey for you? Maybe there's a parent listening out there, maybe there's a kid listening out there who would like to know. How do you really?
Speaker 1:develop this, uh, you know, interest towards math, okay, um, so I think what kept me so long like going all the way to masters or honors or just finishing my undergrad in, specifically, math is that you have to be very curious. So even if you're just doing engineering and you don't have to do math all the time, but you're just doing engineering and math is a part of it you have to be curious within that subject, within that space.
Speaker 1:So engineering is all about solving problems and you look at the specific problem and then you have to like read the blurb or like the problem that you get, and then you have to like break it down and then use maths to kind of fix that problem. So I feel like, if you're that excited about engineering, the math is never a problem. Obviously we have challenges, but it's almost like when you're that passionate about the thing that you want to do, um, the challenges don't. They're not obstacles for you, they just like are something that's there. But then you're like you know what? I still go with this section, but I'll ask a friend, or they'll ask my lecturer, or I look at youtube videos, or I know someone in a different country that's doing a similar thing. I can ask them for help.
Speaker 1:Or there's different forums like Stack Overflow and like different other math forums that you can go to, and there's different textbooks that some people might have. So I feel like, yeah, if you're going into like those type of fields that obviously require a lot of math, loving math is kind of part of going into this field. But I feel like I would encourage those who want to do this field to not give up. I've seen many people try many different roads to get where they are, and maybe the one that you thought would work for you the best and you're like I want this plan and it doesn't work for you. Don't be discouraged by it. There's many different avenues that you can go to get there. Um, um like.
Speaker 1:I've heard that some people say maybe their matric max mark is not so great yeah but then what they do is, um, I know of one of my friends that didn't do biometric and then he did like a mass n6 certificate so usually n5 is a biometric certificate and then you do like an upper level of it. It's like higher grade maths on top of that. So he did that and he found that just the teacher that he had then just like made him realize that he actually can do math, and maybe, um, in the school system or public school system it wasn't so um clear, or maybe he's a different type of learner, but the way that person taught him math it worked for him and he ended up getting a really good mark and then he used that to apply for university and he got in.
Speaker 2:So also the teacher can determine your career path in terms of grasping the concept of mathematics. Yes, and now there's this notion of most people think that at high stage that where will I use math? And for you it was really something powerful you said about that, you chose. I can for sure say it's algebra topology, right, which actually is my first time with all my experience to hear algebra topology that can actually be used to, uh, to to like cure cancer or maybe can you please think deep.
Speaker 2:Don't assume that we know math or anything. Just please take us bit by bit. Like how does this translate into application? Because there's always been debates, like even in programming most of the time, that people will ask them so where do I use math? But of course I know algebra statistic discrete is really big in mathematics, but this is the first time I'm hearing about algebra topology that can be applied in medicine. So please take us step by step. And if the other fields that you evaluated and saw the application, that would be really also important okay, so I'm in it, I will turn.
Speaker 1:Explaining is really hard to break it down, but I will tell my best. So basically, I looked at algebraic topology. So with that topic in mind, I was looking at breast cancer or the application of breast cancer within AI and everything. So basically, algebraic topology is a way to describe the shape of data. So it doesn't tell you like the average and the mean, like statistics does. It tells you how well connected is the data set. Are there any holes in the data set?
Speaker 1:And those type of features can be used to detect like is there a breast cancer, like a CISL or something, and then you'll be able to recognize if it has any of those things within that data set. And then, obviously, once you create it, you can create an algorithm with this because it'll tell you how well the connected data points are and if there's holes and one of those things. So you'll see, you'd know what you're looking for. So you would categorize the different types of breast cancers that you have with a topological data analysis and you build an algorithm on those scans and then you can feed it through a machine learning model to recognize those things.
Speaker 3:Interesting. So math can be applied in various ways, no matter what you're doing. If you think about it, most of the things we interact with or do on a daily it's a game of numbers, always a game of numbers. So how do you do? You just did you explore? Or you had your parents in the education field, so maybe they were. They gave you a bit of a nudge in the right direction and showed you. But what would you tell people who are trying to understand what else if I'm not doing pure math? How do they research and find other types of math, like algebraic topology?
Speaker 1:Okay. So when I was thinking for my master's topic what I should do, my supervisor was actually quite observant. So when I was doing my artist project, I'm actually quite a visual learner I want to see where the math is applied, I want to understand why and I want to be able to show what it means. So he noticed that I'm a very graphical or visual person. So he realized that that type of math speaks to me more and it's what I'm passionate about. So he advised me to do algebraic topology. But obviously it depends.
Speaker 1:If you really like applications, then you should look into all the different types of applications that you can use with math. So, like, if you notice that you really like finance and you like stock options and you're really interested in that finance world, then ordinary differential equations works, stochastic calculus works because you work with American and European options and that builds like a foundation for, like, what you want to do. Like, if you want to do predictive analysis within that field, within finance, you can also do that. Um, most people like to go into actuarial science but most people don't know is that a lot of that is actually math. So you can do a bsc and then branch into actuarial science and do you just learn all the like economics path but all the math part you had, basically because you do like a full-on bsc um, which is like the foundation of math um.
Speaker 1:But there's lots of things like, even if you say, even if you are not qualified as an engineer, but someone needs to hire an engineer, and you did physics and you did math, you basically have the core values of what an engineer needs in terms of solving problems. Like if they just give you something and say, look, we need to fit this device into this type of just thinking of a plumbing problem or something, then they would think, okay, let's think of a physics major or math major and surprisingly, banks actually hire physics majors. Interesting, yeah, banks, banks actually hire physics majors, which is really interesting because you're like physics, but they actually have a very good understanding of how finance works according to physics laws and everything. And maths kind of brings that also together, because quantum physics without maths, but even geology at some point needs some mathematical understanding. So yeah, it's literally like in every bit of parts.
Speaker 3:There's a game of numbers everywhere, no matter where you go.
Speaker 1:Even law, actually, because one of our requirements is that you have to do maths to do law. It's actually a requirement, but if you think about it, they did a study where they looked at people who did math and people who did not do math, and those who did math actually had more, greater logical reasoning than those who didn't. So it's there, but maybe certainly there.
Speaker 2:So maybe another question I would have around math still is, when you break down math into algebra statistics there's discrete, there's applied pure mathematics, there's applied mathematics, and's applied mathematics and how, when you break it down, it becomes really more immersive than just general math and why this is important as a mathematician.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 1:So obviously most people in the study method didn't really know that there's pure and there's applied math. So you have pure math, which is more like algebra, group theory, where you work with groups, which is just like if you have abstract constants like alpha and beta and then you create a group with it and you add like different operations to make it a group. There's like a list of a definition of what you make it a group as, and then there's topology and you're dealing with spaces and category theory. Those are like that's all pure math. And then you have a pride math, which is like ordinary differential equations, stochastic calculus, pdes and ODEs, and then finance. If you do any type of maths or finance, that's all like applied math. So it's kind of important to know the difference. So a good example would be that a computer science student wouldn't need to know like real analysis. So unless you want to do a major in math, but I mean you really need to know real analysis. So it's important to know which type of math is most applicable to you. So I know one of my friends that did ComSci but he also did the finance math module, which is so interesting because I was like, why would you do the finance math module? It's like, why didn't you do I-Vis? And I realized why he took that. And he's like Jess I need to know how to do business outside of the comms high world and learning about stock options and trading from a max perspective means that I'll always do trading right, in the sense that I know the risks and I'll be able to calculate probability and everything on that scale. He said we might not learn it as a real-life application, but that knowledge is not wasted. So he saw it as a learning opportunity in the sense that I've got another door outside of the comms level in case it becomes saturated with what he does. So I found that really interesting.
Speaker 1:So I feel like, as an individual, you really need to know which type of math you need and what works for you. So if you're doing like any type of, if you're doing like physics, any type of engineering, calculus is probably your best friend because it forms like the most foundation and they always ask you to calculate the area of something. And then you have to do um integrals and you need to know how to implement integrals in that problem um, and there's also like um, fluid dynamics, um, which is also, um, where you use a math application, just applied mathematics, so anything like that. You will know that you need to use those type of things. And then you also get discrete mathematics, which is like combinatorics or combinations, which is more like logic maths, but it's also like a nice field to go into. So when I was doing my undergrad I did graph theory and this is so quite interesting.
Speaker 1:So you deal with, like, all these logical problems.
Speaker 1:There was one about you can't cross a bridge, was I don't know, but there was a problem.
Speaker 1:I can't get to this problem, but I will find the name of it, but it was this famous problem where you it's like logical things like how do you cross a bridge without like skipping a bridge or something, or how do you go one way without coming back that same way, like logical thinking of how to solve a problem, which is also like a different type of maths, which is like more for like if maybe you want to do, you're going into business and you need to know just how to approach problems and how to find a solution If your solution is not working, then that type of math helps there, because you always have to think outside of the box and you have to not be afraid to give up, um, you know what I mean. Like you have to really always be like hands-on, but it's like it's a thinking muscle that's always practiced, which is why I say you're to be good for business, um, but just knowing how to navigate that logical realm yeah, yeah, that sounds like game theory, though, yes, and it's quite, it's quite interesting.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of theory in there, but it's just all math, uh, when it comes down to it. But still on the same, um, besides, you know, being curious and all these, there's also even this analogy that, as a lady, don't take anything, that is, you know, it is that fear towards my stem kind of causes. How do you overcome that? Besides being curious, okay.
Speaker 1:So instead of being except for being curious, I would say um, you have to be bold and brave, um, so you have to be that person that knows. I know exactly what I want. No one's going to tell me or deter me from what I want yeah I know that I want this. I know all the things that come with it. I know all the hard things that come with it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I really just want to go for it. Yeah, I would say my field is quite not normal in the sense that people would look at it like, okay, but when are you going to get a job, where are you going to be employed? Like my whole family has asked me all these questions. But I feel it like my whole family's asked me all these questions, but I feel like I know where I want to go with it.
Speaker 1:um, so I know intentionally how I'm going to use it and I think, once you know that and you believe that, nothing else can change what you believe in nice, nice.
Speaker 2:So, um, just a bit of mathematics, because I know, for me math is personal, because I believe that, as you said earlier, everything is math. It comes down to numbers, including anything and everything, actually even music, and even the personal symmetry like a human being symmetric view is math. This time I remember we were coming from a safari around Kenya and we were discussing this with my buddies and I asked a very quick, not a so good question depends how you translate it Just something came in my mind. I was like guys, do you know why someone would be attracted to someone and not someone else? And that discussion mentioned these series known as Mirrors.
Speaker 2:I don't know if you have had a chance to watch it and it burned down like there are shapes and symmetric view that I can process, someone else can't. The same way, our eyes have symmetrical features that are not like any other person in the world, and that is math. Our palm has symmetric features as no one else has. Our fingers, everything else it boils down to that and when you think about it, it's as complex as math. Because you're like, why, even if you're my father, you're my mother biologically.
Speaker 2:There are things that I look like you, but not exactly like you. Yeah, so the same same thing now applies to math when it comes to real world. It is applicable in everything that we see, but not so many people actually are ready for that complexity. And also something else I've noted and you can maybe talk about it is that most good mathematicians they don't find mathematics hard. I'm like are you guys wired differently? What is this X factor that makes you look at math and you just look at the problem and you can see the solution already, but someone else has to go like 50 steps wrong steps, go back another 50 wrong steps until they get it.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 1:So it's so funny that you mentioned that, because I think I was in my honours year and I was like speaking to an artist like how are you so like flawless?
Speaker 1:Like you just look at something and you just can start writing and then, like the way they explained it is, um, maths, like anything, takes time, right? Um, but how they practice maths is quite interesting. So, like I was asking, like, how do you just like know? And then, like, just when you've taught something for so many years, the, the, the like, the, the integral details can change, but the concept is still the same. So, um, it's possibly like recognizing what you need to do, when, but suddenly, so it's not about like, um, giving you a list of problems and then saying these are the solutions and this is how you always tackle them. It's more like you can see where this is going, where you saw this problem in this book, and see, like, how does it look similar and how does it look different, and then, once you start practicing doing that all the time, you naturally become flawless. So it's like training your brain to naturally recognize the solutions within the problem without force feeding your mind. So that's like how I understand how they did it or how they do it.
Speaker 1:Um, I can necessarily see my supervisor like he'll just um, sometimes I'm reading something and it like doesn't come to me immediately. And then he was like okay, let me really, let's really read this and understand what is what it's really saying. And then when he reads and really breaks it down, it's like how do you know? And he's like it's because I've read so many papers, like he said it takes me like maybe three weeks to review one paper that needs to be published. And you're saying you can't read, like you can't read maybe two pages in one day. You read like a bit, try to understand and then take a break and read a bit, um. So then he was like but then once you get the feeling for reading math and understand exactly what they're saying, you'll be able to do directly translations like I do, like I'll just be able to read and then explain it to you. Okay, I'll, I'll get there, but yeah, that's.
Speaker 1:I think that's how they actually um, subconsciously become flawless. And it was so funny because I only realized, like maybe when I was in honors here, because I was um tutoring one of the subjects that's really hard, real analysis, and so it's like the foundation of topology, but it's it's pure math and it's like lots of of topology, but it's it's pure math and it's like lots of theorems and you speak about continuity and open and closed sets, and it's just very set theoretic approach but there's like no numbers, so it's just letters and out like Greeks and like sigma and delta and all of those things. Um, and then I was like, oh, this is so hard. But then I noticed as I started to tutor it it became naturally subconsciously more flawless, especially calculus. When someone needed help with calculus I just would open up a book, read, understand and then I could automatically just ex-manage it. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Math just flows out to me.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:That's a very interesting response, because you've answered like a true mathematician. You've said it's in the pattern. It's a pattern. As long as you recognize the pattern, you get it. So you're definitely a mathematician.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I heard about comparison theory. You compare two problems and see which one is easier, which one is hard and you take the hard one and embrace the hardness in it as a challenge. But did this also drive you into interest into programming? Yes, at what point?
Speaker 1:So there was a point where I was doing a third year module, I was doing ODEs and we were like looking at ordinary differential equations. So basically we were doing only differential equations in third year. But then a part of that module was that you can code what you write and you can put it, you can show it graphically. And that aspect fascinated me because as much as math is very old and traditional which it is it also forms the foundation of programming itself, in the sense, like when you learn basic programming languages, they always ask you write a function, give a function an input, ask it to draw the function, like basic things like that which is. They always ask you write a function, give a function input, ask it to draw the function, like basic things like that which is basically math.
Speaker 1:But I was really interested in showing how higher grade math can be displayed using a computer and that was like a turning point. But it was also an interest of mine because I thought of Alan Turing when he created the world's first computer as a mathematician. That was quite interesting because people often forget that it was actually a mathematician that created the first computer, which explains why programming is so mathematical. So I found that really interesting because I was like oh so mathematicians actually can create and invent new mathematics for new upcoming fields, which I think often is what people forget, what mathematicians do like. They think, oh, you're just a lecturer and you just mark and you just write papers, but basically we explore new mathematics, take it apart, put it together and try to explain how it does new things within our papers and thesis. That's basically what we do. That's the creative part of it. Most people don't really get to see that, but yeah.
Speaker 2:So have you ever participated in the math contexts?
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And how did you find it? Is it the best place to challenge yourself, even to much beyond your school? And you know even pakari, because I understand these math contests actually goes up to the global level, whereby you find like you are the top mathematician.
Speaker 2:one of my um I think one of the neighboring school which is mathematics, where I went to university was um was a contestant up to the global level and it was really fascinating because one he was doing masters and was really young but he was like where I went to university was a contestant up to the global level and it was really fascinating because one he was doing master's and was really young but he was like the best mathematician I think up to today. And another thing is that you get to meet people who can prove that you're not that good, which I find really interesting.
Speaker 1:Yes. So I found it quite interesting because it's very stimulating, like I did SATMO, which is the South African Tertiary Maths Olympiad. So, like they give you like 40, I think 20 or 40 problems, so the first 10 or so is like all of it is multiple choice. But then they'll ask you like you'd have to pick the right multiple choice. And I think there's also negative mark. I don't know if there's negative marking, but sometimes they implement it. But you have to like solve the problem, like on rough paper, and then like pick the right one. But I found it very hard because the time is always limiting and your brain has to be open to like almost all forms of mathematics. So when I did it in my first year I felt a bit limited but I did it for like the experience, to see, like how they would ask the question. Um, so it's like on a definitely is on a different level than to when you learn maths. So that's like the hard part, but it is like a challenge in the sense to see, okay, you've learned all these concepts, but can you actually apply it to solve a problem or a simple small problem, like just something with sets and like finding the lower and upper bound of this function. That looks complicated but you have to obviously unpack it and then try and draw it. So that was like the the very challenging part, but I found it really stimulating.
Speaker 1:You get to meet lots of like-minded people like you, which is nice. So I would recommend, if you can, do group contests. It's always lots of fun. I remember in high school I did a group mathematician Olympiad. So you work in a group and each person gets a section of the paper toiad. So you work in a group and, like, each person gets a section of the paper to do and you have to fill it in and then submit it. But I mean that's always nice because then you foster what you call like collaboration, um, which I think most people forget. Uh, that is really valuable that mathematicians collaborate when you write papers. You collaborate with people overseas. You you collaborate with people in Africa. It's a very collaborative process.
Speaker 1:When you write the thesis or any paper that you submit, you have lots of many different authors, even if it's out with your paper. So I feel like that part is really nice experience. So I like both the individual and the group Olympiad. I feel like it really challenges your understanding of mathematics, so it really like speaks to you and say, like, can you really do this? And then it's a challenge in the sense that you're like, okay, this is hard, but like, can I actually do this? And then I felt like I had more drive or more ambition to actually figure the problems out, like they would give you the solutions afterwards and then I would go and see, okay, how did they do the solution, how did they get to that answer? So that's like the type of thing that it made me want to do. So it actually fueled my desire, more so than discouraged me.
Speaker 2:Oh, nice mainly want to do so. It actually fueled my desire, more so than discouragedly. Oh nice, and now you start delving into uh, programming or computing. Right, okay, computing is still math, but programming rather, yeah, uh. But then most people don't know uh, and they assume these that for you to be really versatile and sustainable in computing or programming, you have to keep digging more math besides what is taught to you.
Speaker 2:But that's not the point. The point is, you realize most of the mathematicians, they just focused on one arm of mathematics or one formula or one theorem, and it took them their lifetime to even really make sense out of it, and even then it outlived them. Which means again it brings me back to how complex sometimes mathematics are. But also that's a fascinating aspect of life it's a whereby and this now brings me now to the aspect of community whereby you can achieve everything on your own Right. And that's why now communities are so, so important, because you find someone who is good in X, someone else is good in Y, someone else is good in W, and when you come together then you find the power of everything. And even when you look at the corporate world or the governments, it's facets of collaborations that come together. But when you started programming, did you just train communities, or how was that transitioning?
Speaker 1:Okay. So it was actually quite hard Well, not hard, but it was hard in the sense finding the right person to guide me through it. I don't think anybody tells you how to find the right person that understands your exact level.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So when I say like, I usually describe myself as a pre-pre-beginner for Android and people are like what do you mean I'm like, it means that I really Kotlin is probably my first official computer programming language, which means I don't really know much about the world, which means I'm a pre-pre-beginner. I'm not even a beginner because I don't even know what full stack or front end and back end is like. I know what it does, but I don't know like the full description of what you mean. Um. So I feel like, um, it was hard navigating. But I actually fell in love with Android Studio and it was so weird because I think months before I got my acceptance letter, I decided to install Android Studio on my PC. That itself was a mission, because I don't know how to do it properly. So I asked one of my friends, ralph, and I said, look, I really want to get into Android, I really want to learn Kotlin and I really want to get like, try and do this. They said, okay, okay, we're going to do this together. So we had like a video call or on teams, someone can take over your computer, yeah, um, so we did that. And then he installed android studio and, um, we were going through it and then he was like, okay, this is how it works, this is the like he was playing all the all the parts and stuff. And then, um, I actually found google's documentation for Android really simple, in the sense like the code labs really show you each and every step and they show you what the screen must look like. So it wasn't like I was reading a blank canvas, it's like I was reading a full canvas with everything there, which I found really encouraging in the sense that I would do something and it would be exactly like how they did it and it would show exactly what they did, which is kind of cool, because that's how I learned math, kind of. So I'd look at a solution and then look at a problem and then see how they did that and then try and do it in a similar way, even if it's different things. So I kind of like or copy the method of how they do it and then while I was doing that, I would obviously I would like to try and do what they do, but then I would try and change one or two things so that it sticks in my head what I'm doing.
Speaker 1:So, like if it says hello world. I will say like hello, jessica. Or put a name of someone that I really know like oh, wow. I'll say like hello, jessica. Or put a name of someone that I really know, like oh, wow. Say hello, wow, because it makes me learn code better. So I found Android documentation to be really good, so I used their code labs. If you just type Kotlin or Android in Google, it should show up. So I used that and it was quite nice.
Speaker 1:But the only thing is like taught me really simple things and it was good for starting, like showing, okay, I did build something. But then, when it came to harder things, like data classes and I know how a class works, but I mean how to implement it in a different section of a code. I was familiar with it because we did both differentiable equations like a script in MATLAB. So I do know that you must have a separate file for the equation and then for the function and you like import it. So I did understand how classes work, but I didn't know the whole nitty-gritty details of the real important things of it, of how to implement it, um, and that you get like such a thing as a data class, like different types of class, um. So then, um, I wasn't quite sure of how to like navigate that um, and it was just so awful because at some point, like I, it's hard because you don't really know what direction you're going in.
Speaker 1:So at one stage I was learning java and then I tried Flutter, and then Flutter was a bit too hard for me, and then I tried Kotlin and it worked well. So it's like I was like playing around to figure out what worked for me. But I had to do that because I didn't want someone to tell me this would work for you, and then what if it doesn't work for me? Yeah, so I took that initiative to kind of find what works for me, and at the moment, Kotlin really does work for me. I know most people don't think of it as like the most geoless language, but it really solidified all the different aspects I didn't know about coding within that language. So I really felt like, ok, this is home, I understand it, I can bold from here. I can become a Kotlin expert. That's what I want to be.
Speaker 1:And then I would say mentors are also a very big part. So I have a lot of mentors, but all of them are for different aspects of my coding journey, and the reason why I say this is because you can't find one mentor that can be everything to you. So I have one that just guides me on finding the right communities or the right resources for what I'm looking for Two of them actually that are really good at that. I know they're really busy people but they always find time to kind of give me some guidance in that aspect. When it comes to the nitty-gritty details, like becoming a real hard code programmer in Kotlin, I have Eric. He's really good in the sense that he gave me a beginner Kotlin book which is quite easy to read and it really sets me up for where I want to go with Kotlin, but he's also really busy.
Speaker 1:But then I found someone that I can do coding sessions with, like be coding sessions with.
Speaker 1:So whenever I have a project or a presentation coming up, I always do my part first.
Speaker 1:So I would try and research, look up, see if I can build it and then, if I have any challenges or problems or just want it to be checked or code reviewed, then I would have a coding session with my mentor and we'd discuss it out and he's really approachable and really nice.
Speaker 1:So I think that's nice because I also feel like I don't put too much on him. It's just that part that he needs to really help me with, because everyone's always busy and I, because everyone's always busy and I know that everyone's always busy, but just the peace that they can give to me means the world. So I look at it like that and I also have another mentor, hannah, so she's teaching me how to do more technical Android presentations, or how to be technically correct and getting into the technical writing space, because she does a lot of articles, which is also really nice in the sense that it's my first female mentor in Android, because Android is quite male-dominated. So I'm really blessed to have her and happy to have her. It just gives me a different perspective of Android, so I really like that.
Speaker 2:Nice.
Speaker 3:It's fascinating that all through your story some key things stand out, such as collaboration, right from the math contest up to now when you're doing the peer coding and it seems that you like high-pressure zones, you know, like the math contest, and again when you literally took over GDSC without being a comms-sized student. So the high pressure, I guess, is also something that works for you in a way. But going back to where you said you tried several things, you tried Flutter, realized that one isn't for you. You were here and there before you realize, kotlin, is it so for someone? If you could look back and see yourself at that instance where you're trying to find your footing, you're trying this, trying this language, you're not sure where to go. What's the one thing you'd tell yourself? That would be like you know what trust the process, or how would you advise yourself to navigate that quote-unquote confusion, error, before finding what really works for you?
Speaker 1:uh, sure so, um, the way I would describe as our might seem a bit harsh, but, um, find what works for you before someone tells you what should work for you. Um, it's a bit harsh, but like that's how I would think this should be inward outward, not outward inward.
Speaker 1:Yes, um, so I would. That's how I would encourage myself, because I feel like the language that you choose is your. It's like your, your most personal language. So I don't think of programming languages as like you just learn. It's just a language when you program. It's like it most personal language. So I don't think of programming languages as like you just learn. It's just a language when you program. It's like it's an actual language you speak. So right now, I have three languages English, max and Kotlin. Wow, so it's a personal thing. It's got to be something that you really love doing. It's got to be something that, even if it challenges you, you are still very much attached to it and you love to speak it. And even if it updates all the time, which Android does but you love learning the new ways of speaking it. Like you get new words in English all the time, or like the diction is always updated every year, so yeah, Interesting.
Speaker 3:You're fluent in English, math and Kotlin Got it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So, jessica, I would love to know how is tech ecosystem in Cape Town and, if I was in Cape Town, maybe even tell us more about Cape Town. Some of us have never been there. We see some amazing beach photos.
Speaker 3:The mountain meets the ocean.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, yes, and there's a lot that is quite interesting. When you talk about Cape Town, maybe delve into it and also please mention about the developer community there and what to expect.
Speaker 1:Sure. So Cape Town is really nice. We have really beautiful weather. We do have our most prominent seasons are summer and winter. Spring and autumn are, like, not so much there, but our weathers seasons are summer and winter. Spring and autumn are not so much there, but our weathers are so very temperamental so it can change very quickly. It can be sunny in the morning and it can be winter or full on winter, windy, and then it looks like it's going to rain in the afternoon. It's very weird like that. But we have beautiful mountains. Table Mountain is one of our biggest attractions and we we have beautiful mountains like table mountain. It's one of our um biggest attraction. And we do have beautiful beaches yes, like really beautiful beaches, um, which is also um a very nice attraction, and we have, like the aquariums and like we have um beautiful other beautiful mountains other than table mountain, like lion's head and single hill, so we have a very beautiful landscape, um, the cultures are so very rich, so we have a very beautiful landscape. The cultures are so very rich. So we have different cultures within one place, like from Kailitsa to the District 6, which is the city, and, yeah, we have a very multiracial, multicultural place.
Speaker 1:That's a little bit about Cape Town, um, with regards to the developer ecosystem, um, I think it varies. It's like it really it really changes a lot, um, but it's it is there. Like we do have developers. We have lots of business people interested in coding and computing, um, which is really nice. Um, usually, when I go to many different meetups, I always meet a different collection of new people all the time. So I can't really define what the population, what they actually do, because every time it's a different thing. We could have engineers that join our community. It's just very diverse. But I think, if I can like highlight cool areas of what people are interested in within our developed ecosystem.
Speaker 1:So, and just from my university perspective, I've noticed like a lot of people are really into cybersecurity. So like we have lots of competitions, like the san ren competition and um standard bangles has like a ethical hacking competition, um, so we have lots of like those type of competitions. Um, in terms of like that obviously fuels the idea the, the idea that people want to go into cyber security, um, um, but I think what's different there is that people go into cybersecurity but not necessarily a software company. So it's so funny. I have a friend of mine that's at KPMG but he studied computer science but he is the cybersecurity person for an accounting company, which is quite interesting Because I thought maybe there'll be more software places but he found cyber security within accounting firms. So we're starting to notice that accounting firms are starting to be interested in STEM students like math, stats, computer science, anything technology related, because obviously they are upgrading to the digital age.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which is exposing them to cybersecurity attacks, fraud and things like that. So are you saying there's more space to build solutions around that sector?
Speaker 1:Yes, I would say yes. Around that sector. Yes, I would say yes. And then some people also going into the education sector, in terms of how to build solutions for people who don't necessarily have access to those resources. So maybe thinking of making an application that doesn't require data to use. So we have lots of areas that don't necessarily have internet connection. It's quite hard. Or they may have, like you know, the best of smartphones, or don't have a laptop but have a phone.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But then they at least can learn on the phone or, like, do practice questions on the phone yeah. So education is one of them. I think we definitely need solutions for transport. That would be one of the biggest sectors. Not solution, but how can technology make it better? Yeah, and what a country is? Yeah. And then we also have people who just fold tech solutions for businesses, like Specno and Axel. They just fold solutions for businesses. They have clients that come to them and ask can you please buy me a solution, tech solution that is a fully operational MVP? Yeah. So we have companies like that a lot and I've seen at the highs of companies like that that fold tech solutions for business.
Speaker 2:And are most tech companies, like AWS, based in Cape Town or Joburg.
Speaker 1:There is an office in Cape Town and an office in Joburg.
Speaker 2:yeah, oh, they have both.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think so. Yeah, Because I have a friend that works at AWS and there is an office in Cape Town, but he could also go to Joburg.
Speaker 2:Okay, Okay. So would you consider that Cape Town is more tech than Joburg?
Speaker 1:It's really hard to say because most of the companies almost the tech companies that I know also are in Joburg. It's just that Cape Town is naturally slower, so we're not like um, okay, I wake up very early, but most people wake up at nine, so it's 12, of course.
Speaker 2:So yeah, ideally um so joburg.
Speaker 1:I would say joburg is more like nairobi in the sense that it's really busy, like constant busy um. Joburg also is probably the city that's got most business in terms of money, business deals going. Cape Town is more tourism. I want to see maybe we're coming up in terms of the tech world, in terms of doing business in Cape Town.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so do you say also, tourism and hospitality is a big industry. That tech could actually build solutions around?
Speaker 1:Yes, I definitely think so.
Speaker 2:Maybe we should do tech and tourism. Uganda actually is doing a tech and tourism hackathon this month, so that could be also a good solution when we start doing the hackathon. By the way, talking of that, I do want to jump the gun, but please tell us more about Africa's Talking Community in Cape Town.
Speaker 1:Okay, so I'm planning the activation of Africa's Talking. So that's probably why the whole theme of cybersecurity came into my provision topic, which is like data privacy and data security. So I was thinking from a cybersecurity perspective. Obviously you have big hackers that hack everything else, but like small things, like SMS. You get SMS from your bank. How do you control cybersecurity there? I mean, most people don't even like really check their bank statements, they just see the SMS and they just close the phone and it's like you know that easily could be hackable as well. Your phone you okay, most banks don't phone you, but I mean email or SMS you get from. That's the communication banks use. So any type of those communications are at risk of being hacked.
Speaker 1:So I thought of that to start off as a nice meetup coming September. So I'm really excited to host that. And then I would like to do a hackathon centered around that theme or topic, like how to protect sms and how to protect email. Um, obviously there's like the not spam um that you get. Yeah, that you can take, but I feel like hackers have become so much smarter these days. Yeah, so you can't really take the chance of you know it's not gonna, because maybe what if they can actually replicate a bank email officially and make it look like it really is that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and then you fall for it and then there's nothing you can do to like yeah, yeah, and I think it's an ideal time to set up the community because, as you said, you're looking for 2G solutions, which is right, you know, right at the core of what Africa Stocking does.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I mean even when you look at what Google is enforcing right now among as many other companies 2FA, two-factor authentication it boils down to 2G, because, at the end of the day, if you have a phone right and everyone does not all the time, even if you have a smartphone that you have internet, but just verifying it through 2FA, that makes a lot of sense, and then you can set the expiry of the code so that it doesn't really give room for arching and many other solutions, and I think when developers come together they'll be able to figure out okay, is this the best way?
Speaker 2:Because I also saw another solution I can't remember the name, but this fellow doesn't believe in passwords. So, and I also know, there's a website where you just you know, once you register for something, you just add the link and you're able to log in without so much hassle and they give you like a very well encrypted, one password that can actually access most of these solutions. So if you have that and I think data and protection is becoming a really big topic because of obvious reasons that there's right now even the warfare the world war will not be fought using nuclear warheads. It will be about data, it will be about privacy, it will be about cyber, so it's quite good and go for it. Also, there is something else that might be coming down there in partnership with Anita Borg.
Speaker 1:Yes, so we have a very exciting opportunity. It's still in planning phases, but we would be really honoured to host a meet-up with Anita Borg as a partner. So it's something we're really looking forward to making happen in Cape Town, which I think is really nice, because we do have the audience that's really interested in women and women in STEM and empowering women and being there for women. So I feel like it's the right space to have that encouragement, but I also feel like maybe we'll reach more people than what we normally reach. It's something that's really exciting.
Speaker 2:Exactly Looking forward to that, in partnership with Africa, stalking Women in Tech. Oh, yes, definitely Please talk about Africa Stalking Women in Tech. I see they are listening here. If, please, you can request to be speaker and speak a bit about it, yeah, if we have people in the community, we'd love to hear your take.
Speaker 3:But yes, at Africa's Talking, we do have a women in tech community. It's steadily growing. It's in its first year, but, hey, people hit the ball, the ball is rolling and we hit the ground running. In short, so here we have it across several countries. Here in Kenya, I am the co-lead and we have a booming community with hackathons every month every last Wednesday of the month, so that's exciting. We'd love to see South Africa pick up as well and have the same momentum Setting up in various countries such as Uganda, and we can't wait to see where the schools Please tell us why it's different from any other women in tech in the world.
Speaker 3:This one is different because this one, first of all, we get hands-on from day one. Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 2:Don't come there to you know, to eat tourists for lack of a better word, hit in court. It's just about come with your laptop. See other ladies who are writing code. Try to solve some of those problems using code Exactly. See how it goes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we're all determined to create scalable solutions and, like Jessica said, we have a lot of ladies in STEM. So if you want to get hands-on, see how you can apply your math, your engineering to programming and to tech, this is the place to be. We get hands-on and see how we can solve this. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And another aspect that I need to mention about africa soaking women tech is that we're trying to interweave all these women across africa, so it's just one community, but also operating locally. So you're connected continent wise, but you're operating locally and you can always reach out in case there's anything you need to check out. Yeah, but back to jessica. Uh, you in nairobi and you travel a lot. Right, give it to you. You told me, once you leave Nairobi, you're planning to go to Ghana. You'll come back to Nairobi again for several reasons, but please tell us about it.
Speaker 1:Oh sure. So I'm currently in Nairobi because I'm attending a telecommunications conference in partnership with ITU, which stands for International Telecommunications Union, and AFRALTI. So we're basically learning how to become a key leader in spectrum management and why it's so important to have spectrum management and it affects all forms of business, like just like how to get Wi-Fi and all the different generations like 1G, 2g, 3g, 4g, 5g and we're going to 6G. So it's almost like we're just getting into all the nitty gritty of that. And also like if you have a 6G phone and you're going to like a 2G zone, you can't use your phone. So it's almost like you have to upgrade all the areas as well as when phones upgrade, but also it's very expensive.
Speaker 1:So I think when we get the demand for that, obviously, then that will happen. So it's like all those type of things that obviously challenge society, and also mobile operators also come in in hand with that. So we're discussing all the important details of spectrum management, which is really exciting because it's like a different section of tech that deals with policies of like Wi-Fi and all the things we do need as tech people. You can't live without Wi-Fi. Truly it's like the first thing I go. I always ask what is the Wi-Fi password? Do you have Wi-Fi? So I mean that's really important and I'm really enjoying the experience so far.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then after this, I mean after this trip, I go back home and then I'm going to Ghana for the deep learning in Daba home, and then I'm going to karno for the deep learning in daba um. Uh, it's like a conference for ai machine learning and I'm also like really looking forward to that um. I know there's going to be like lots of different companies. They're like google, meta, microsoft, um and there's lots of different opportunities or activities within that. There was a dinner social. They also have hackathons that you can join, which is really exciting. I wasn't quite sure about the hackathon yet, but I'll see if I can get a team together, but it was really nice to see all the different activities that they have.
Speaker 1:And then there was also you can do a block interview with Google Deep Learning so you can see where you are and where you would like to be in terms of your resume and your CV which is kind of a nice experience, so hands-on experience, but most of all I'm just like really excited to meet all these, all the people coming from all over the world to Ghana to experience the deep learning in Dala.
Speaker 2:Wow, that's amazing. I want to be you now, but definitely I would like us to talk more about the, you know, spectrum management and this also. I'll have to mention Starlink, which is exploiting some of the bandwidth that have not been used across the world and using satellite actually to send back some signal, and it has actually. I saw another Twitter space here by the telcos and you know the Internet ISPs discussing about it. Actually, now Starlink is active in Kenya and one of the fascinating thing is that is really really fast and, According to the usage that people are sharing across different channels, it's quite strong and impressive for that pattern.
Speaker 2:So do you think some of these unutilized technologies, unutilized things to do with basically tech itself, do you think we have a lot of space for people even to come up with new innovation?
Speaker 2:Because when anyone before maybe two, three years ago, if someone thought about satellite internet, one of the things that came into their mind is it's super, super expensive. You could not even imagine accessing internet while traveling using flight or you know through, you know ship, but right now it's possible thanks to starlink. I know, because of the adaptation it's quite expensive, but it's not as expensive as it was previously and that's gonna break down so many barriers. Because if you boarded a flight, what was the last thing thing you said? Oh, the flight is leaving and I'll land at this particular time, so expect some darkness in it, and people you know face some accident between the journey and a lot of things happen in between the flights. But right now it's possible even to keep in touch with your family back at home, keep working and so many other opportunities that I can see, which means you know there are opportunities as well as you know the other downside of it, but of course, it's something that can be exploited. What is your take on that?
Speaker 1:Sure. So I definitely think that new ways or new innovations are important.
Speaker 1:So, I definitely think that there's a space for it. I feel like as new solutions are made or created, then new problems are also made and created. So I feel like satellite is actually quite an interesting way of doing it. I think it would work especially for planes, because I had a problem with me when I would fly. Just say, mom, I can't like when I'm flying you only hear from me on the other side, and you might not even hear from me on the other side because I still have to get in line. So can you know they still have to access wi-fi somewhere or strong connection before I can say hi, I'm safe, I'm arrived, um, so I. I definitely think that would be a nice um sick, because it's still starting. I think it would be nice if I could be at this point to invest in it, because I really see the usefulness of it. But I think even if we didn't just use it for flight but just for normal internet that would be.
Speaker 2:But even iPhone is actually starting to support satellite internet Just directly from the iPhone. I think the next iPhone they are launching should be able to support that. I watch the same thing where you don't need a SIM card. Now there's eSIMs, which actually supports that. As long as you can get the signal, why not? So I feel like in the next couple of years, if not months, you should be able to start seeing these actually take over, and it's really hard for you to go offline unless there's I don't know what would take down the satellites.
Speaker 2:Also, iot as Africa's Talking News to provide IoT APIs, and one of the things that we made us pivot is because I think we were ahead of time for lack of better explanation. But ideally, most of the biggest challenging part of IoT is the Internet, because remember LG, samsung they actually wanted to support all their appliances to support IoT, so that you can actually automate some of the tasks like you know, how much temperature do you need in the house? Do you want your coffee warm before you wake up? You know those miniature kind of tasks.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But ideally that requires reliable communication between devices, which now boils down to IoT. But when you look at it, same same as Starlink not Starlink but Space they're providing IoT, specifically small satellites that are really mobile and they cover the whole world so that if any IoT device needs internet, it just gets that internet, and that's another. You know, I would say something that will unblock most of the things, like opening your gate automatically, because maybe the satellite sends you several meters away, and so many other small things that actually would make even security better. If you think about it, it's mind-blowing and I think this is not discussed more and more. But I feel like you know, mathematicians in the world, computer scientists in the world there are people actually who think how can we make life easy? But of course, there is the you know, the robotics and the AI conversation that people are like oh you know, people lose jobs.
Speaker 2:You know people might get killed by robots if they take their own autonomous ways, and it has been proven. It was just mere talk, but of course, scientists and anyone else in the field, like you and I and everyone else, need to come out and try to evaluate some of these things to ensure that we mitigate them. Before you know they get out of hand. Because you can imagine, if a robot gets its own mind and this is a robot you can't kill it, you can't arrest it, you can't do anything. Actually, it can get really out of hand real fast. Look at charge UPT. People are like you know, how did they get this code? How did they add this knowledge about these books?
Speaker 2:There are people who wrote these books that you are sharing all over and maybe you're not even taking credits. And of course, it brought up plagiarism. The tool itself is plagiarizing people's work. And now there's a discussion like can you even quantify that this work that you're quoting is coming from this person? This person actually can come and say you know what? Someone paid $20 per month. But am I getting laid? Because at the end of the day, everyone should be able to reap from their work. So there are all those discussions, but I don't know as a pure mother. There's a way you think about it. Let's solve it and everything else will follow.
Speaker 1:So it's so weird. So I think when I was thinking about it, or I was thinking about AI specifically, lots of things came to mind like how do we hold AI accountable for things Exactly? How do we keep transparency? And I think, as a mathematician, keep transparency?
Speaker 1:and I think, as a mathematician it's we are kind of very um, we move very slow when it comes to technological development, which kind of is good, because we we believe we must trust something before we just take it on. Yeah, um, um, which is nice in the sense. Uh, we're not quick to like, just, you know, try this. Or yeah, like that, um. But I think for mathematician we obviously we are very critical minded, so we always evaluate okay, this is a great thing, but what is the catch? Exactly? That's uh, that's how I can put it, because I was just spoke to my professor about it was like um, that's great, but what is the catch with this?
Speaker 1:It was so funny because my friend, he had an assignment at Ames for something and everyone they wanted to obviously finish the assignment, but there was this one question it was a proof in group theory that he asked them to do and they asked Jack GPT just how to do it.
Speaker 1:And Jack GPT like just how to do it. And Jack GPT gave him the most awfully wrong proof you've ever seen in your life and, like some of my friends were like really strong mathematicians just looked at it, like this is wrong, like you can't use this, like we can just see that immediately, this is wrong, which is kind of like, I feel like mathematicians always have to read between the lines of wrong math and good math, so we can see when, lightly, we don't really want to fully embrace it, because it's like but do you really know the math well enough? You can do amazing things, but I mean, do you really know what you're speaking about? There might be a point in time where you don't know what you're speaking about and you're giving it to someone and that might be very not good in that aspect.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think if you think about it, think of anything that is in E4C stage and I'm not saying that AI and machine learning is in E4C stage it's because it's been here for over 15, 20 years. What you are seeing is as a result of that research that people have done over and over, and the reason why I feel like, okay, as much as we might not embrace it, at least try to make it really work for us, because it's here already. As many other technologies that I've seen I don't know if you saw the Android when it was the first version of it- Android 1.
Speaker 2:Yes, it was really. They call it names of fruits. I don't know if it stands for apple or something, but when it came out it was not that really mature as it is right now, but over time it keeps, you know, evolving. So the same way, ai and machine learning. Number one, we need to think about data privacy, of course, that you can't ignore that. You also need to give credit to its deal and see how can it really help instead of replace, because if Human beings as it is, I feel like they are not that replaceable, as much as you might look at it. Like you know, you have replaced this task.
Speaker 2:Now someone is jobless, it doesn't mean that person ceases to exist. There are several other aspects that you can measure that that person is still alive and kicking, unless you kill them, of course. But even if you kill them, there is an analogy that they will exist in another world, but that's a different discussion. Exists in another world, but that's that's. That's a different discussion. So my take here is, like scientists in the world across different, um, you know industries, because even education is highly impacted uh, like someone would ask themselves, and this started with youtube, but they're not even ai, why should I be going to the university the first place and and get into these loans and and loans which I don't know even how I'll pay because, of course, there's always deficit of jobs? Yeah, and I can go on google or maybe you know some documentation on online and learn. Whatever I want to learn in programming I should have proved this is this can be done as long as you're interested. You can go and teach yourself how to code, build solutions as much as you are self-driven and do amazing stuff. But that does not mean school ceases to exist. It means that schools need to give that interest that people are looking for and try to coexist and try to improve. We have seen Stanford, we have seen MIT, we have seen Harvard start their own YouTube channels, which actually is a revenue generator by itself because of the content they create that actually is educational. This has given even validation that for sure I need to be in Harvard or I don't know, and you can replace Harvard or Stanford with another institution that has embraced technology and you'll see. Actually, it has not actually taken down what they're trying to achieve. It has just propelled them more to even give visibility on what is happening there. Because if you take. 15 years ago everyone wished to go to these Ivy League schools because they knew they're Ivy League. Besides that, nothing else. But after visibility and seeing the culture, seeing the innovation that is built there, everyone would really love to be part of that. So if you look at those angles on how we perceive technology, you'll find that actually technology is really well used and embraced in a way that it serves the humanity. It's not a bad thing. I'm sure.
Speaker 2:Even when mobile phone came about, there are people who are like you know what? Maybe that's a pop, right, it might burn. And we have seen even Samsungs blow up and now you cannot. I don't know about now there are some series of Samsungs that was really fun in the airplane. You could not board a flight with that kind of phone for some reason. But they fixed that and you know things moved.
Speaker 2:So to some extent nothing comes fully formed, nothing comes in a perfect form. It's a matter of saying, okay, here it is, it's crappy, it doesn't look good, it's not serving us. How can we make it? And this takes a lot of science, it takes a lot of communities, it takes a lot of, you know, positive embracing of that and also putting the right measures. So I don't know if a mathematician like you, you view some of even not so well, you know, fully formed technologies like machine learning. I feel like machine learning we still have some steps to make to really make it useful. But do we just wait until the first version of 30 years of research is released so that we can say you know what it's not good in math? Or do we just involve ourselves right now and say how can we make sure that this actually works? At least for version one works 50% so that now we can improve as we go.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:So I think, like a mathematician, we are similar to technical writers in the sense that we always have to keep updated with what could change if the software changes, and then you would redo that test again to see if you have the same output or is it more accurate. So I feel like technology, or use of technology, is the same, and so what you could do is, like it is a version one or version two of machine learning. You can say, um, this is how I got, um, this is what I got from version one, and then compare it to version two. So I feel like, um, there's always something to learn within applying of the different versions. So I wouldn't say like, completely, like, say no, but I would say embrace it and then see what you can learn from it, and then put the newer, more improved versions, see if you can do the same thing yeah and then like write a mini paper on why you can't do the same thing or what did the upgrade that changed it, and, like you, creating new knowledge from your experimentations with that technology.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's super cool. But then you know fun fact Right, when smartphones came about, it was around 2000. When really people embraced smartphones in Africa, it was around 2015-ish. Right, that's when people were like you say, people, the smartphone are real. Okay, smartphone came all the way back in 2005. But in Africa, even right now we will not say all the countries you'll find you know use smartphone penetration. But when it came about, people were like you know what do I need SMS?
Speaker 3:Yeah, that was the resistance.
Speaker 2:Right, right now, people, not even 2015. In 2023, in August, people are asking themselves do I really need to buy airtime? Who do I need to call? But now I need to buy data to call through WhatsApp, yeah, which I don't need to get another new line, I just need data bundle or Wi-Fi and I can call.
Speaker 3:You're good.
Speaker 2:Now imagine if you have a way of replacing data in your phone, which is satellite. Now, if you get satellite internet, you're good, you can just pay for that whichever way you do it, and you still access internet. But maybe three, four years down the line you could not figure out how can I have a voice conversation with someone else without airtime, right? So the phone companies that say you know what, we'll still be selling airtime and not embrace the voice of our internet voice, then they'll miss out. But also even when you think about SMS, even with a smartphone, at least in Kenya, if you send someone money and there's no confirmation SMS, even when you pay for something, however small it is, if there's no SMS confirmation, which is as simple as SMS, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Then you're not getting under that item or service. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Just yesterday, m-pesa increased the daily limit transaction to almost $4,000 or 500,000 Kenya shillings. To almost $4,000 or 500,000 Kenya shillings. That's money you can buy a car or you can go, and you know, I don't know it's quite valuable to have that. You can buy even a plot, right? Yeah, piece of land, good piece of land, and that requires what? To confirm SMS, exactly. That's how powerful some of the technologies that are hold.
Speaker 2:Embracing the new technologies, because also, if you think about it, if there's no internet, nothing much happens, right, but there's some things that actually could actually work without internet and they are so valuable. So it's like the point here is like embracing the new, embracing the whole and just trying to see how it works. And I like what you said if you test something and you see, you know the different results, the best way to share these with the world is they write a paper, have a peer review, publish it somewhere and someone maybe might have more tests or more knowledge into it, and then that way people are able to accomplish more. And do you know what that means? We are one big community. It boils down to that At the end of it all.
Speaker 2:It boils down to what Sylvia can add, what Jessica can add, what person Y can add. And now, if we are able to see this works, this doesn't work, now we can agree okay, person Y can add. And now, if we're able to see, you know, this works, this doesn't work, now we can agree okay, this is the best way to do it and improve as we go and as we come to conclusion to this, I would love you to tell us what should the community down in Cape Town expect in terms of, you know, african-speaking community, gdscdsc, escs, kotlin, because I believe all the communities that exist, they can only again work as uh, in collaboration, as opposed to different facets of, yeah, communities yeah.
Speaker 1:So I definitely think, um, it would be nice to have all the communities kind of work together on certain aspects.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like if we're looking at one topic, it's also just really hard to work with different people or different entities because they all have their different community guidelines.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But I feel like we all have one thing in common. So it should be relatively simple to work with different organizations Commons. So it should be relatively simple to work with different organizations. But to Cape Town, you can definitely expect some amazing content and more hackathons, a chance to share your knowledge and show what you can do as a spotlight stage for tech people. And I definitely want to bring more of that to Cape Town so that people can have more experience in actually working with something in a short period of time and, like there's so many different things you learn from hackathons that are invaluable skills that you can't get from nothing. So, yeah, definitely be prepared for more engaging hackathons in Cape Town.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can't be more excited because I would like to give a few shout-outs here on Twitter space. I can see Geek Culture. You know Geek Culture. Yeah, geek Culture is tuned in. There's Loki, there's a team in tech I don't know if there's a request to contribute or ask a question. You know we have a mathematician in the house. Guys, you know that comes once in a lifetime. Yeah, we have Eutrice, we have Lewis, we have Zhu, we have Calvin, we have Pilot, we have Realists, we have John, we have Lavenda, we have Seipkot I don't know if I'm saying that right. We have Berman and we have Emmanuel. All these are amazing people. Thank you so much. We love you, we appreciate you and thank you for tuning in, but, jessica, please give us a parting shot. Sylvia and then close this.
Speaker 2:Parting shot.
Speaker 1:Thank you, Did I cut you off, Gert?
Speaker 2:Sorry If you wanted to say very gutsy of gut. Sorry If you wanted to say something I'm not closing these ateliers. Can you just repeat the question? No, the parting shots. What would you say to our listeners?
Speaker 1:The takeaway oh, okay, so my takeaway would be technology is powerful. There's new technologies coming out. Embrace them, love them, grow with them. But also bring all the lessons and things that you've learned from the old, but don't throw away the old, because what if you don't have the new anymore? So it's like keeping a balance of all tech. So have a balanced mind when you look at all tech, so that you're not biased to certain tech, but you embrace all the different advantages and disadvantages that technology can give you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, nice, that's amazing. My key takeaway would be collaboration, collaboration and more collaboration. I mean right from Jessica's stories, right from what she has shared in the math field, in the tech field, and even collaboration in the tech field amongst the technologies. Like you said, the new and old technologies, they intermarry and that's how we're able to solve these problems and make them even more effective. So it's collaboration all through between the people in the community. It is the core of what holds communities together. So it's between the people in the technology, and with that we're unstoppable.
Speaker 2:Very nice, that's a good one. So for me, it's just about the human, for the human, by the human with the human, and always about human, because at the end of the day, where I come from, they say, if you really want true wealth, it exists only in humans. So until next time, guys, subscribe, share, like and follow. This podcast exists in all podcast channels across the world, that is, itunes, spotify, google and many other online podcasts. Also on YouTube, we exist as Impact Masters Media and you'll also find it at Africa's Talking YouTube channel named Retorts. Until next time, it's yours truly, michael Kimadio, mk. See you.