#35 - PAUL ANGATIA

Join us for an enlightening conversation with Paul Angatia, a renowned leader in business service sales and marketing, boasting 17 years of experience. Discover how Paul's early life in Kakamega and Nairobi, combined with a passion for sports and natural leadership skills, laid the foundation for his impressive career. With his father's political career providing a unique backdrop, Paul shares personal stories that shaped his journey, emphasizing the significance of parental influence and overcoming high school struggles.

Dive into the intricate issues of devolution and resource allocation in Kenya, as we critically analyze the systemic challenges that impede equitable development. Paul offers candid insights into the mismanagement and corruption that plague the political landscape, proposing strategic solutions for enduring problems like drought and water scarcity. The conversation underscores the need for ethical leadership, better resource management, and the pivotal role of education in fostering societal progress.

In the latter part of our discussion, Paul reflects on his career trajectory from unexpected beginnings at the Kenya Bureau of Statistics to entrepreneurial ventures and key roles at prestigious organizations. We explore the importance of creating products that genuinely meet customer needs and the role of emotional intelligence in professional success. Packed with valuable insights and inspiring narratives, this episode offers a comprehensive look at the complexities and triumphs of navigating life's challenges and opportunities.

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:02

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 2 0:09

Thank you so much for joining us once again. It's a pleasure to have you in a beautiful day and you have one amazing guest today. Amazing guest today. We are blessed to have an accomplished and business service sales and marketing leader with 17 years of experience delivering extensive and successful acquisitions and managing teams Adepts at orchestrating the development, presentation and adaptation of alternative solutions, procedures and services, standards for business transformation, competitive edge and return on investments. Leading dynamic teams in fast-paced markets and displaying the personal drive required to turn business opportunities into revenue, growth and profit across both private and public sectors.

Speaker 2 1:10

One and only Paul Angatia. Paul Angatia, how are you? I'm very well, thank you, it's good to have you today and, as we normally start here at our Africa's Talking podcasts in collaboration with Impact Masters podcasts, we like to know our guests and not just normal stuff where you know you say I went to this company, I went to this school. No, no, no, no. We want to know who is Paul Angatia. Where are you born? Where did your life start? Sometimes it's called a trick question and I used to interview people. We used to call it the most unstructured question you can ever get, because you need to structure your mind and try and address what is relevant. So I could start from when I was born and all these things, the 40 plus years, but a lot of that might not be very relevant, so I'll try and just stick through to what seems relevant.

Speaker 4 2:06

Yeah.

Speaker 2 2:07

Born over 40 years ago. As I said, I know men are never shy about their ages, so that's 44 for me, absolutely. Yeah, the older you are, the better it is. For us it's called wisdom. Born in Kakamega but moved to Nairobi. I was about three years old, went to school primary school and secondary school was in Nairobi. I love into primary and Lenana school.

Speaker 2 2:30

Picked up a few things there rugby, football, basically sports athletics. Represented Nairobi in one or two cross-country championships. That's in the 90s. So I was a bit of a sports person. Actually I still run half marathons, try and climb a few mountains here and there, but besides that I always had a thing about trying to influence people right from primary school and influence them in the right direction.

Speaker 2 2:56

So I had a bit of a what you call a posse, a clique. Okay, people used to hang around. One of the advantages I had was that I was quite fast. And then I was also very strong. So you know, boys like crowding around people who can bail them out in fights. So did you influence people and then run.

Speaker 3 3:13

Or how did this work? Well, no, not really.

Speaker 2 3:15

Because you said you like influencing people and you're also very fast. So I built a bit of a reputation in terms of sticking out for people getting out of fights, defending people who are, you know, like weak, and so I had people who used to hang around me like like a team. Yeah, no, we had a small I don't call it a Turkish one because it was a positive one yeah, but we would go into, you know, causing positive chaos. Where somebody's being bullied, we can get in there and try and sort out things. Where we're trying to influence or impact or get a good thing going, we would force our way through by just talking to people in the right way and showing a good example.

Speaker 2 3:58

That meant that I ended up being a prefect in primary school.

Speaker 2 4:00

I was also a prefect in high school, quite senior all the way to fourth form. The reason why we go back from the start is because we have realized I might say, for instance, I work for Africa, stocking right and what I do. Sometimes that might not make sense if you don't know what influenced my decision to do what I do, where I do it right. We've also found people who are entrepreneurs, like you are, and you might never know. Maybe they left a very huge, well-paying job to be entrepreneurs. But when you understand how they were brought up, where they grew up, the experiences of growing up I've found out over time that actually shapes who we become in the rest of our life and even choosing our purpose.

Speaker 2 4:48

Like you said, you defend people. I will not say why would you defend people, right? So even this question like where did your life start? It's actually based on that so that whoever is listening, whoever is watching us, they can understand. Paul actually grew like this in this setting. These are the experiences up to where he is. So if you don't mind, we can start from the beginning. I don't know if you guys went to. Nowadays they CBC, where people are spending like 3-4 years before even they join primary school. I'm sure back then it was just nursery class one and then, yes, onwards into primary school.

Speaker 2 5:30

So did you go for your nursery school here in Nairobi or back in the village? No, I was privileged that I started off nursery school in Nairobi. My dad was a politician An MP. He was an MP, yes, when I was born late dad an MP yes, when I was born he was an MP at that time, that is interesting the way you are putting it.

Speaker 2 5:51

So politics is up and down. So because he used to spend a lot of time in the village and then he would come to Nairobi for three days a week to be in parliament, so was he an MP in the village or in town? So he was an MP for a village constituency in Kakamega.

Speaker 4 6:10

I see yes, and.

Speaker 2 6:11

I had to come into Nairobi, of course, for the parliamentary days Tuesday. Wednesday, Thursday. So, understandable and then leave Thursday for the village and then be in the village Friday, saturday, sunday, monday and then back to Nairobi on. Tuesday.

Speaker 3 6:22

I mean.

Speaker 2 6:22

Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday and then back to Nairobi on Tuesday. Anyway, those days not to put it badly, but they used to work they used to put in a lot of work. I agree with you Nowadays people don't work.

Speaker 4 6:34

People are just having a good time here in Nairobi.

Speaker 2 6:36

Yeah, you can operate in Nairobi for five years and then you go back to the business and have some cronies there.

Speaker 3 6:40

Take your business. They'll go look for votes again, but those days they had to put in the effort.

Speaker 2 6:52

So I think I grew up in that environment where you would see a lot of selflessness. Selflessness is trying to just make a difference in society, do things which will impact lives positively, and I think I picked a bit of that in terms of, uh, social entrepreneurship. That's from your father, from my father yes looking at opportunities and seeing how can you make things better. Or if you can't make things better, how can you make things stable enough for those who are there to make things better? So that's where the influence came from.

Speaker 2 7:14

I think so yeah, I see yes, because now there would be a lot of people coming into the house and those days there were no restrictions. We have people coming from the village and they stay with us in a three-bedroom house for like what? Two, three weeks so you're sharing the house with all these strangers, that you really don't know them. But they are constituents. They are more or less the people who have employed your father.

Speaker 1 7:33

Yeah.

Speaker 3 7:34

Yeah.

Speaker 2 7:34

So you'll tolerate them.

Speaker 4 7:35

So you know, whatever you're eating, they eat with you.

Speaker 2 7:38

You have to go to places. They say, yeah, they also want to go. So you find a way to take them around town and places like those, but you would see from what they were striving to achieve that there were a lot of gaps in society and they felt that there's this one channel who's now the mp who could help them actually get through their gaps and make an impact in their lives if it's taking kids to school, if he's starting a business, if he's supporting farming, and so in just having discussions and talks with them, you'd hear them complain about very basic things and you'd understand that education could make a difference.

Speaker 2 8:10

Yeah, this guy just went to school.

Speaker 2 8:12

He would know better how to deal with such a situation and education helps in everything, whether it is healthcare, whether it is hygiene, whether it is even just longevity of life. So that was a very big, strong point for me to understand that the impact of education transcends many other things in society. If you can start on the education level, all the other things can fall into place. So you're saying, if maybe the policymakers set proper strategies to ensure that people get education, then that actually, in return, solves most of the issues that we see as big issues right now? Yes, but let me ask you this, now that at least I'm talking to someone who has been close to power.

Speaker 3 8:51

In quote If you call it so.

Speaker 2 8:55

Right now in our northern part there's a lot of drought, right. Yeah, I don't think there's any education that can solve that at the moment. The only thing that those people need right now is food. Before even you talk about you know, we will dig the wells, yeah because, that has been promised, maybe since I was born.

Speaker 2 9:12

Yeah, it has never happened and actually I don't understand this. Maybe you can help me. I don't want to put you on spot, but you can help me understand how this works, because I don't see if it's rocket science to dig some few wells around the place, because the other day we got the Tulu where we are mining oil.

Speaker 2 9:36

Guess what. That is already working. The system is in place. I had a couple of. I don't know how they measure, but a couple of. I don't know how they measure well, but there are a couple of barrels.

Speaker 3 9:48

Barrels of oil.

Speaker 2 9:48

Yes, yes, that are coming from that place. Do you mean digging water and oil is like I don't understand that, because even when we are and this actually is common ground for Africans, to be honest, yes, uh, when, during campaigns, leaders would traverse every single corner of this country yes but let's come to where people need help, like right now. People are dying to sort out the problem right. Yes, it's becoming a whole kenyan issue. People have have to raise funds.

Speaker 1 10:23

Now, there are no helicopters, there's no money, there are no helicopters.

Speaker 4 10:26

No four-wheel drives. Our military is not working, you know.

Speaker 2 10:30

And it kills me to know that we can solve some of these problems once and for all, if you want.

Speaker 3 10:35

Very true.

Speaker 2 10:35

Yeah, so the challenge from my perspective, and I'm not perfect.

Speaker 1 10:39

Yeah.

Speaker 2 10:40

I don't know everything, but I know one of the things that has held us back as Kenyans, as Africans, is what you call the big man syndrome. So in the past, what used to happen before we had this new constitution and evolution? If your man was not in power, it was very unlikely that you would find or get any development.

Speaker 2 10:58

Oh, yeah, so the reason why everybody then had to coalesce around this big man and entrench all sorts of weird measures, like you know. Yeah, man needs to drive campaigns. Yeah, of course, in that way also driving corruption up is because when you're around the big man, you have access to resources yeah regardless of where you come from.

Speaker 2 11:20

Now, if you are not close to the big man, it's very unlikely that the resources will trickle down to places where the big man doesn't have people. Yeah, so if you are not close to the big man, it's very unlikely that the resources will trickle down to places where the big man doesn't have people. So if you are like in Northeastern, so you have to align.

Speaker 3 11:31

Yes.

Speaker 4 11:32

So you have to align, you have no choice.

Speaker 2 11:34

The big man can once in a while fly there and hold a rally or fundraising or something, open a hospital, and then you find people seeing cars for the first time, seeing people drinking water because they've carried water from Nairobi or wherever. So the challenge was that in that whole period, whenever people got into areas of positions of influence, they went to build themselves instead of building for the community.

Speaker 2 12:00

You realize that we don't have it's not like 100% across Kenya that we do not have. It's not like 100% across Kenya that we do not have education. Education reached everywhere. Even in those areas you're talking about Northeastern. They are educated people. The challenge we have is that those people got educated, left the village came to the urban centers or wherever it is, and they realized that problem is too big for me to go and solve. So they were to build their life away from the village completely.

Speaker 2 12:25

And then they'll go in there and take photos once in a while, humanitarian or we need to raise money and do a drive with the nice cars.

Speaker 3 12:32

But we have people originating from those areas and cook chapatis on the streets.

Speaker 2 12:37

I mean those people who do that. Of course you're doing the small way you can. But I think what you're trying to say, the small way you can, but I think what you're trying to say you can correct me if I'm wrong is that we can do more if we bring the resources together. We are intentional about it, that this is the problem we want to address, and if we rally around it over time it might become an issue.

Speaker 2 13:00

Yes, it becomes less and less. I mean, as you say, it is the trickle of the water that breaks the rock.

Speaker 3 13:05

It's not the other way around.

Speaker 2 13:06

You think the rock is tough but the trickle consistently. So if you find somebody who has come from that area, they obviously know what problems are there they can write for you books and books about what issues. They are and they even have ideas on how those issues can be resolved.

Speaker 4 13:22

The only place we've now seen that there's a chance is with devolution, because suddenly we're pushing resources down to those villages whether they like it or not, I have an interesting aspect about devolution.

Speaker 2 13:32

It's good that you've brought it up. I've been meaning to have someone think differently.

Speaker 1 13:38

And.

Devolution and Resource Allocation Challenges

Speaker 2 13:39

I hear you think differently. Don't you feel like most of the resources are going to paying specific people or recurrent expenditure, as opposed to serving people trying to solve issues? Because I hear even some counties, there is over 90% of the resources that goes into recurrent expenditure. You find a new governor. They don't like the house that was there and they want to build a mansion for themselves.

Speaker 2 14:05

And you ask yourself this person, by the time they run for governor we know, all of us know at the moment, right now, it's about money and this person, the threshold that they have in terms of money for them to run for their office you ask yourself were they sleeping in the bush before they became governors? And also there's this other issue of employing guys who supported you, which actually beats the logic of devolution whereby it's supposed to be more of. I'm not saying that you should not reward people who actually were with you in the journey, but we can do it better. So I'm like, maybe when we started about devolution issue before 2010, it was like resources were managed at the national level, which is Nairobi, the capital, but now people wanted resources on the ground and someone else actually can argue that if maybe we hire, say 100 guys, that's money in the pocket for 100 locals, which is okay, but is that the way to develop?

Speaker 2 15:04

Because at the end of the day, there will always be few who actually benefit from this and majority, and again the alignment comes into play. So maybe in your experience I mean being close to power do you think there's a better way of doing devolution, because I don't feel like we should do away with it altogether. Even if we do away with it altogether, there's supposed to be a clear way of getting resources down to the people in that area. It might not be through governor and all these ministries, because it comes as a full-fledged government Again, which is redundant when you think about it. So how do you think we can go around this with your experience? Okay, I think when it comes to just utilization of resources, we've got a very poor example from central government, because even in central government, when you look at expenditure, I think we're heading towards maybe 60%.

Speaker 4 16:05

So you're buried on debt?

Speaker 2 16:07

Yes, so we trickled everything. We trickled corruption we trickled, misuse, mismanagement. But ideally, our hearts are usually not in the right place, in my opinion, especially with people who are in the political space, because in those marginalized areas, they would understand what is the priority for Northeastern.

Speaker 3 16:24

Probably water.

Speaker 2 16:29

So we have cattle, we have, schools, we have, but water is such a big priority that it should transcend everything else that they're trying to do. Yeah, now, that means that any priority project that is being built up should have water somewhere in the middle there, because when water is in there, all the other things will move on healthcare will improve, education will improve, because children are now spending more time in class instead of going to look for water.

Speaker 2 16:46

Yeah, the agriculture, whether it's keeping animals, whatever it is will improve as well yeah, but then there are some responsibilities that have to be national which is like power, which is like even water. The basic, the basic items, basic needs, ideally should still be with central government. But I understand where they've said, okay, now we've removed, evolved that problem, that problem is for those guys it is. Do you think they're escaping the blame or they they are shacking the responsibility? Yes, they don't know. Now it's easy to say but the governor gets money.

Speaker 3 17:17

You have your government there. Go and ask the government.

Speaker 2 17:19

The governor doesn't have, the money he has is not sufficient to cover the challenges around the ground. And the problem from there is because we didn't start from an equity level. It's not equitable and there was even no education around that.

Speaker 3 17:33

No, we just jumped in and said, okay, let's move on, maybe the aspiring MP who wants to retire and be close to his home area In fact, where you know that the understanding wasn't even clear, even to politicians.

Speaker 2 17:44

many of them ran for what, senator, when we started evolution, that was the prime position, everybody wanted. Because what does governor have? Let's go for the Senate.

Speaker 3 17:52

You realize all the brilliant minds majority of them ended up in the Senate.

Speaker 2 17:58

Right now is when they're going for the government. Yes, within the time they realized we don't have any power here, Now they started agitating to go back to the county to be governors, and a lot of them.

Speaker 2 18:06

after one time in Senate they moved to governor. But back to the issue. The issue is that if we could have started on a level where there's some equity in terms of, understandably, places like Central and Rift Valley were close to power for many years, central was even close to the seat of power. So you can understand that a lot of infrastructure has been built up in Central, in Rift Valley, areas that are far from the center of power. Center of power meaning Nairobi, not necessarily a person, but Nairobi. It would then mean it's easy for you to get a good education if you're in Central province as compared to if you're in Northeastern. But how would we have brought this Northeastern person closer to power? It meant that the government must have had to invest in those areas. Yeah, which never happened, because we go back to the big man syndrome, where we never had enough people in Northeastern who were influencing, enough of the power, enough of the resources to come to their place. So what did they then do?

Speaker 3 18:53

they decided we will just fend for ourselves so they and their families are doing very well, but for the rest of the community it's not doing well, so I do started on that level where at least water is available across the country.

Speaker 2 19:03

Now you can build on that. But now here we're talking about people building up ICT industries EPZ in Central Rift Valley, nairobi. When in Turkana, even when you talk about laptops for the kids, they don't get it in. Turkana. They don't have power. How are you going to even power this gadget? Forget about power.

Speaker 2 19:22

So there are basic needs that we need to address Before you come to saying now let's give money to the counties, because when you give this guy, he gets 2 billion. The guy in Nairobi gets 12 billion. For example, hypothetically speaking, the Nairobi person is dealing with what Slam issues? Maybe 4 million people. Yeah, like the whole country is here, is here, but these fellows seem to have a way of surviving you know guys, why not be proper hustlers?

Speaker 2 19:43

Yeah, the guy in Northeastern. He just sits there waiting for government. He can't do nothing. He sits under the tree Half the time. They are sitting there with begging bowls. What can they do? They can't dig, they don't have inputs, they don't have fertilizer. When do you get any agricultural?

Speaker 4 19:58

produce getting to Northe.

Speaker 2 19:59

Ask yourself why is it that you find that in Nyandarua, people are throwing cabbages alongside the road feeding their cows, and all because they don't have a market and people in Garisa are dying of hunger?

Speaker 1 20:12

It doesn't make sense Yet we have devolution.

Speaker 2 20:15

Why couldn't these two governors speak? And then you get the lorries to go to Nyandarua and pick the cabbages and take them to Garisa and then we pay. Create a market for these farmers who are struggling to even get produce to the market, because you have people starving, not even just survival starving they are dying. Some of them are dying.

Speaker 2 20:29

Yes, we are feeding cattle, and you know the sad truth is that every year this happens and it's unfortunate that people die.

Speaker 2 20:41

For me, even with my small knowledge I don't consider myself knowledgeable, it's actually even I can't think about it, because you have seen this over and over and over again and you know, every year this is going to happen and after maybe now the rains have started, right Now that's not a problem. Now we've forgotten about it. And another thing that I've noted is that every time there's a fund raising, most of that fund does not go to buying these people food or digging oil. Right now I heard they have raised around almost a billion. Actually the government gave two billion. If you dig oil now, the wells and also the dams, you do a lot with that money. That actually would solve at least half of the area, or maybe a quarter of the area, whatever it is, and next year do something around it, put strategic measures towards some of these problem and it becomes you know the people actually a good thing about Kenyan people. That one thing I've realized, and the reason why even we are doing well is because we are hardworking people.

Speaker 3 21:47

We put in work.

Speaker 2 21:49

If it's for our leaders, by the way, it would be worse than any other African country, but because every time we are faced with crisis, we are able to mitigate it and work hard, and it looks like nothing. So I think leadership there needs something. There's a big challenge there, because you can't have the same problem over and over every year.

Speaker 3 22:10

You know what they say about that.

Speaker 1 22:12

Something to do with your mentality and your sanity.

Speaker 2 22:16

So if you were to look at it in the sense that even you, as a person who comes from a home, you realize every year, when the rains come, my roof leaks.

Speaker 2 22:25

So when it's dry, I need to fix this roof. So you come in there, you patch it. You patch it when the rain comes again, you realize the place you patched is okay, but there's another place leaking. You patch again. Then you say, okay, let me save, I need to buy a proper roof. Yes, on comes, I'll replace the roof. You and I think that way because that's on a very basic level. You would imagine that it's the same mentality that goes into corporate thinking in the public sector.

Speaker 3 22:50

But then it's like when somebody gets into those positions, you remove one mind and you take out another mind, that now runs things very differently Because, at the end of the day, if you were to say every year, just dig one borehole, even if it is in Northeastern, wherever it is.

Speaker 2 23:03

The county government says this year we are going to do only two boreholes. Now you've reduced the challenge and the pain of these people who have been going without water. Forget about even going far distances.

Speaker 3 23:13

Even those far distances don't have water. Now they have two boreholes.

Speaker 2 23:16

Next year you say, okay, out of our supplementary budget or whatever budget we'll do, let's dig another two. Over time we've had 10 years of devolution. Where would we be? You have at least 10 wells, 10 bohos. Actually, the problem even is not about devolution, because this has been there even before devolution. That's very true, and it has been the same problem. I was in primary school. I used to hear that you know, not the eastern, it's not. Sometimes there's drought and like even I think there's affirmative action that is in place to like excuse those guys to be admitted in the university, when they get lower grades but why don't we?

Speaker 2 23:54

but anyway, someone can argue and say one man's problem is another man's business and.

Speaker 2 24:01

I tend to think I tend to lead on that side of things if you look at it as you were saying complaining about the funds that are raised vis-a-vis what gets, it's another man's business. No, that is very true, and I tend to think I tend to lead on that side of things. That's what it is. If you look at it as you're saying complaining about the funds that are raised vis-a-vis what gets to the ground you'll find a very big spend on logistics, Exactly.

Speaker 2 24:14

Very big spend and administration? Yes, but then even in those same areas in Garissa, the guys, the trucks and the lorries and the transportation are locals. Why can't these locals say we're going to go to Nairobi and pick the food that has been collected and we get the goods that have been provided for, it will be at our cost because it is coming to help our people. They will not do that. This is one thing that I've come to live with because, to be honest and to just be fair, I've never been to Northeastern and the easy actually was to go to Lodwa.

Speaker 4 24:46

You should.

Speaker 2 24:47

And do something different actually to address this problem. Long-term solution that was just imparting skills and knowledge and ensuring that people at least have access to the global economy, which actually breaks them from that boundary of you know, I'm in Lodwa or I'm in the eastern end, I'm left for death or something that is worse than that. I think I still need to take care of that challenge, because, for me, I don't like looking at things from afar whereby you don't understand what is happening and you've never been there.

Speaker 3 25:24

I've been to Samburu, I've you been to know this?

Speaker 2 25:25

I've been to Samburu, I've been to Lodwa, I've been to Lokichogyo.

Speaker 3 25:30

At least you are speaking from an informed point of view.

Speaker 2 25:36

That aside, the reason why we're actually having this discussion is because you said your dad was in politics. And there's another question I had around that your dad being in politics and you know, coming on Tuesday and leaving on Thursday, leaving on Friday in the morning yeah, how much influence did he have on you? Because right now there's this parenting issue of people getting challenges. I'm like how can I be the best dad, how can I be the best mom? And if you heard now I'm a politician or I'm a busy businessman or I'm an entrepreneur, it adds actually more. You have less time with the family.

Speaker 2 26:18

So, what lessons did you learn from that? Yeah, I think for majority of kids they don't ask for much, they just apart from that. Yeah, I think for majority of kids they don't ask for much. They just apart from that presence part. It's also to see that their lives matter like when you're around.

Speaker 2 26:32

You're actually around. When you're able to spend time, you're actually spending time. Now we are in the microwave age, where you're on the phone, you're watching tv, you're speaking to the child, so half the time the attention is very split. So even they, when they grow older, and you're watching TV, you're speaking to the child, so half the time their attention is very split. So even they, when they grow older, and you're calling them and their attention is on the phone and they are, it's because they learned from you. They learned from you.

Speaker 2 26:52

Yeah so what I've realized is, over time it makes it easier if you can involve the kids, especially in what you do from time to time when school allowed. Most of the time we were in school anyway when school allowed we were on the campaign trail. We were in there going to visit villagers, going to find, so it's what you are saying in simple terms you can hit the road and get the seat.

Speaker 4 27:13

Well that's a long story.

Speaker 1 27:16

It has never happened.

Speaker 2 27:17

We'll get there no worries so anyway, it helped to give visibility on what exactly happens when this guy is not around. Yeah, so what is he doing? And you get to understand if this thing is important to him, it must be, it must carry some weight. And then you realize, indeed, it's because of the impact that it has in society and even much later in life I would go to places and somebody like yeah you're so and so's.

Speaker 2 27:40

Yeah, I remember he did this. Those are not things I would ever have known that he did here and there, because he was not somebody to go announcing the things that he's done. True, true, but you see the impact that we leave in society.

Speaker 3 27:49

So he's a true leader.

Speaker 2 27:51

Those old guys were. They actually did a lot of work. In my opinion they did a lot of work. At least those who turned out to work, they actually worked. If you're coming to school to work on a Saturday, say okay, you have a child. Say let's go to work to the office. They sit around. They'll get bored, of course, but they feel so honored to be given that importance that you can carry them to your workplace, which they know is very important to you. That's why you're always spending your time there.

Speaker 3 28:18

Where does this guy go every day?

Speaker 4 28:20

Okay, today he's taking me Wow.

Speaker 2 28:21

Okay, they go tell the kids their friends in school. Hey yo, my dad took me to the office. I have two daughters and they'll always do that. When I go to the office with them. They'll tell stories in school it's an adventure for them? Yes, because a lot of the other dads just go to work. Nobody even knows where are these workplaces so it's difficult for them to align. When you hear dad is having challenges at work, you're wondering what is work anyway? What?

Speaker 4 28:46

is that work?

Speaker 2 28:48

But, when you hear yeah, you know, we met the boss, and the boss is a very difficult person. They can understand who that person is and they know. Okay, that's what it takes for dad to put food on the table for us. But if you just disappear and appear, disappear and appear.

Speaker 3 29:03

What does this guy do?

Speaker 1 29:03

with his life? They don't know. But you're saying you're working.

Speaker 2 29:06

So sometimes it's just to appreciate and involve people in the things that we are doing, so that they understand what it takes to be who you are. Because, the challenges in life today are too many. Half of the time, the things that you're dealing with. A lot of other fathers or parents are also dealing with the same, because we usually think our problems are the biggest ones. So we close ourselves up and try and sort them out on our own.

Speaker 2 29:28

Yet as they say, there's nothing new under the sun. True, true People have gone there before us. Well, apart from things like crypto, which are new, but so many other things that are not new People have been there before you.

Speaker 2 29:38

They know how to address, address some of the challenges you're going through. So the plan is to share and see how best can you be there for the people who matter in your lives, because, at the end of the day, jobs come and go, occupations come and go, but at some point you'll have to sit down and have a reckoning with yourself like, yeah, what have I been doing with my time?

Speaker 2 29:56

So, that's what I learned from my dad. He really involved us, made sure that we would understand, would do campaigns, would stick, posters would go. We distributed money 50-50?. We gave a trunk like the ones we used to go with to high school. It's packed with money.

Speaker 2 30:11

We told okay they have sent I don't know how much. We couldn't count. Of course it was too much. So we put it there and we told okay, we're going for a rally, you sit behind the pickup there and people come behind the pickup there and people come, so you're told everybody who comes just give 50 shillings, maybe.

Speaker 3 30:26

what 10 years?

Speaker 2 30:27

old 11 years old Everybody 50, 50, 50, 50. One of my other brothers is counting the people.

Speaker 3 30:31

Older or younger brother, the older.

Speaker 2 30:33

I was the youngest at that time. So him is counting the people, me I'm counting the money, so I just give 50, 50 and the other guy is counting how many people. At the end of the day, yes, okay. So how was it? Today we give a report.

Speaker 3 30:45

So there's a counting endeavor.

Speaker 2 30:47

Yes, we're at the center. This is what happened. And then he tells you do you know what that means? Do you know what 50 shillings does for somebody? I don't know what that is for me. I have no idea.

Speaker 3 31:02

He says okay, look.

Speaker 2 31:03

When 50 was 50. When 50 was 50. That family will be able to last like a week in some level of luxury. That's like 50 cents US dollars for those who are listening, yeah, so it is almost zero the way you look at it, but at that time, because of the value, it meant that we understood why this was so important to him and what our role was.

Speaker 2 31:28

What. What could we do to help in this? Because just sitting and saying okay, how was it today? And then he tells you something mumbles. You can understand. People are many. What is people? I mean many, what do you mean by many? Now, when you're on the pickup there, you're the one distributing the money or giving out. You know, know, helping out people buying them, lessors, distributing the headscarves for women, selling out the manifestos, giving out booklets, trying to recite the, you know, loyalty pledge. Then you understand what it means to be Kenyan what it?

Speaker 2 31:57

means what your role is in life. So you're just not here to go through life and exit at the other side. You know, through a VPN, you actually have to leave some value.

Speaker 3 32:05

You didn't just say through a VPN From this side to the other.

Speaker 2 32:10

It gave me a sense of responsibility and ownership. Take up stuff where you can do something to help somebody else, it doesn't matter what that person will do for you.

Speaker 1 32:22

I have a question around the 50 shillings.

Speaker 2 32:26

This is something else that I've picked up over time, how this politics is run. Yeah, you give someone 50 shillings, of course, if you do that every day for the campaign, say six months, and you're doing it even for a constituency. You're doing it for like how many words? Maybe five or six in a constituency. You're doing it for like how many words?

Speaker 1 32:44

maybe five or six uh, you know those days there were many, but let's leave it at five.

Speaker 4 32:47

Yeah, right now they are not because they're split.

Speaker 1 32:50

Yes, yeah.

Speaker 2 32:51

So that's a lot of money if you think about it, and sometimes the calculation goes that these guys give more than even they will ever get a salary for the five years they're in office. A salary for the five years they're in office, and it's. There are people who argue that's a form of corruption for people to be influenced to give you votes. Also, there are other people who argue that this money is taken somewhere for rituals, so once you take that 50 bob, you always vote for that person.

Speaker 3 33:21

I cannot deny nor confirm about this.

Speaker 2 33:25

But there's all these arguments around giving people the quick solution as opposed to like serving them. Also, there are other people who look on the flip of the coin when they say, if you don't give these people money, they will not vote for you. But I think that is changing over time because you have seen guys who actually even they are given transport to move from one what from, from one word to the other. Yes, in the they become MPs and we have now Cilicia MP. I think it's from around Omega yes, I can.

Speaker 2 33:54

I can recall his name right now, but the the current Cilicia MP. Yeah, what do you think we can change these now that we understand that actually what is required is not a quick solution, it is a long-term solution, that actually these people become empowered as opposed to dependent? Okay, so there's a theory around what we call the path of least resistance when people find a way they can do things in an easier manner.

Speaker 3 34:22

They will always take the easy way.

Speaker 2 34:23

We are human beings.

Speaker 4 34:25

Regardless of what benefits.

Speaker 3 34:27

They are on the long path and the reasoning yes.

Political Corruption and Ethical Decline

Speaker 2 34:30

Which is why even they say for like heaven and hell, the wide path has more people because it's the easy one. But to your question you see previously, at that time even I had those questions when I was growing up. So where is this money coming from? What does it do? But I realized at that time, the machinery was such that the ruling party, which was Kanu, had so many resources around the country that they used to raise money.

Speaker 2 34:54

Parties actually did activities to raise money. Kanu had, whether legally or not, the ownership of KICC at that time, so they used to raise money from rent. They used to sell all these farm inputs.

Speaker 3 35:07

There are a lot of outreach programs.

Speaker 2 35:09

They had field officers who used to do stuff like on behalf of the party. So, here there's an area that you know the president wants to grow agriculture. He wants to introduce new estates for coffee and tea. They would drive that kind of initiative under the party.

Speaker 3 35:23

So the party would raise money.

Speaker 2 35:24

Also, when everybody was, of course, you had to pay nomination fees. Now there was no other party.

Speaker 2 35:29

So everybody in the country paid nomination fees to this one basket one pot, so there was enough money at the end of the day to actually run campaigns without having to dig too deeply into your own pockets. Also, people used to sit and listen through campaigns and initiatives, for if you have a manifesto, what you're trying to tell people, they would sit through, because these things are resonating with their daily lives. How is this going to change my life? There's been a big shift.

Speaker 2 35:56

People sit through those things and after time everybody's waiting for the end of the rally to collect the money.

Speaker 3 36:02

Because they have appearance fees. That is not important.

Speaker 2 36:04

No, they have a sitting allowance. So they're coming to sit there Once they finish. They queue, they finish. I ran a bit of a campaign for nomination this past campaign.

Speaker 3 36:14

I know that's come 2022.

Speaker 2 36:15

It's come before. You asked the question and the challenge we had was that, yes, you map out a zone. Yes, you map out a zone. You say these are the people I'm going to speak with and you go and you create some publicity around the event and people come for the event and at the end of the event, you have to have to. It's now given you have to give out some money. So what happens if you don't? So what happens is they'll attend that one rally, but next time you're calling people no one will ever show up In the afternoon your competitor has another rally.

Speaker 4 36:45

They have gone there.

Speaker 3 36:47

It's a business.

Speaker 2 36:48

In the evening when you say we'll be having a kikau somewhere at my home they will be there. And you see, now we have also motorbikes. It's very quick to move from one end to the other. The biggest challenge was that you'd find 40 to 50 to 60% of these fellows. Number number one don't have a voter's card. Number two those who have don't vote in your constituency.

Speaker 2 37:08

So you're giving money to these fellows but none of them is reaching the ground because there's no impact. The fellow comes, attends your rally, you give him the 50, thinking he's reaching his mother and his other people and he'll spread the word. But the people are not in your constituency, so they're not going to vote for you, so that is one of the challenges that we've had, with a lot of money in the campaign trail, but the big problem is politicians themselves have pushed that kind of mentality, and it's every other divide.

Speaker 2 37:32

Yes, it's them who pushed it, because they don't have content. When you don't have content, just come and shout hola on the microphone there shout a few slogans yes, make some noise two, three slogans that are repeated over and over.

Speaker 4 37:44

Yeah we'll do this, we'll do that and then sit down.

Speaker 2 37:50

And then you just remove some weird utopian, we'll hit the road. Yeah, yeah, we'll put dual carriage.

Speaker 3 37:53

People clap, they're happy.

Speaker 2 37:55

Then you give money. If you ask any of those fellows, what did you hear today in the campaign? They cannot recall a single thing. They know that the guy came, we saw big cars and all, and he's given some money, this guy's given a jirongo, the other one is.

Speaker 3 38:10

You remember even that narrative back in the days where money was named after Jirongo? Jirongo, jirongo, jirongo.

Speaker 2 38:15

That was a politician. We understand the histories around it, but the big problem is how do you make that mental shift? That mental shift goes back to what we start off with education, the moment you realize you hate, I can name better for myself with what I have. Yeah, you shift your thinking completely. You will not go spend a whole day in a campaign rally what are those who sit in those rallies, you ask yourself when they are sitting there?

Speaker 2 38:39

where is the productivity? How is this country growing when, very, very day, we are in the campaign, rally every single?

Speaker 3 38:45

day. So who is digging the farm?

Speaker 2 38:46

Who is taking water to the cattle? Who is building the houses? That thing is happening, so it means in that period we shut down the whole country. We're just going to campaign mode Now because I'm not working. What do I expect? I sit through your rally.

Speaker 3 39:01

You're going to compensate me for the time that I've been sitting here Because I never went to my farm today.

Speaker 2 39:06

I never carried anybody today, so you pay for the time and that's what has heightened the pressure until now. We're almost at breaking point. You cannot have a rally without people removing money. The other day the president had a rally. I mean, that was a national celebration. It was a challenge to get people to attend.

Speaker 1 39:21

This is a national. It was a challenge to get people to attend.

Speaker 2 39:24

This is a national, so even those rallies people get paid. Yes, I mean because we are used to crowds and we don't know that there's mobilization that happens for these fellows to show up. But when it is happening, somebody has left something else, I'm sure the president is not ignorant of that fact. He's a good mobilizer.

Speaker 3 39:40

But now, in this case.

Speaker 2 39:41

Since 1992. Yes. In this case there was no money being paid, so he assumed this is a national event. Maybe someone decided to pay themselves, we don't know. Either way, there was a very poor showing and this is coming soon after the election. You would expect that we are in euphoria.

Speaker 3 39:55

We are happy. We want to come and celebrate ourselves. This is our president.

Speaker 2 39:58

You voted him in. We were seeing empty chairs. What does that tell you Either? We've realized, indeed, the importance of my life is my people and make sure that my family is well and all or it could be that majority of the supporters were not from around the area.

Speaker 2 40:12

So they couldn't make it for the event because they were attending the county events in their respective rural areas. It could be that, but at the end of the day we've commercialized so many things until it's hard for me to convince you to do anything for me just for the sake of nationalism. For the sake of patriotism, for the sake of a good heart. There's always what is it needing me? Yeah, for me.

Speaker 2 40:33

So there's no self selflessness in this you know there isn't, and that's what I usually say in my head if my dad was to wake up today and run for for, he wouldn't even make it as an MCA, he wouldn't make it. They say village elder. He would not make it as an MCA Village elder.

Speaker 4 40:48

Leave alone MCA, where someone just volunteers to just be reporting on what people.

Speaker 3 40:56

And even those.

Speaker 2 40:56

Now there's a bill in parliament to pay village elders. I'm sure you've seen it. It's been introduced. They want now village elders to also be paid.

Speaker 1 41:02

I think it was three weeks ago.

Speaker 2 41:03

Which makes a lot of sense, because life also has become very, very they probably do the most work they want to resolve the basic issues, but the challenge is how do we get people to not need government, because the less government you have in society, the better that society. And there's growth, not the opposite. Now we want to bring government into everything. This is where the challenge arises, if you want me, every day I'm paying my taxes, I'm going to see the chief. I'm having to pay another.

Speaker 4 41:31

Open a business that has four or five licenses. Government is on you.

Speaker 2 41:34

There's too much government in our lives. That's why we can't live and that's why we've centered so much of our activities around politics that there's little room for anything else to happen. Innovation is suffering. The things we could do as a country there are a lot of them that are. We have thriving spirits in us that can make them happen.

Speaker 2 41:52

But then the brilliant minds that would be doing those things. Where are they now? They're living, actually, and that's why I was almost saying that. Is that why entrepreneurs and innovators are leaving the country en masse, and even some of the engineers, because I deal with them a lot they're also leaving, because when you look at ATS, you might work remotely and you're paid really well, but now government has an online tax. I don't know which other tax pay tax, whatnot?

Speaker 4 42:18

tax.

Speaker 2 42:18

Everything. So you ask yourself it's not bad to pay tax, it's okay, but you have to see where these taxes are used.

Speaker 1 42:26

How is this happening?

Speaker 2 42:27

When you hear $5 billion has been stolen and someone becomes a governor, you're not encouraged Because that's your money. In one way or the other, that's your money. It's like someone stealing from you and you're told we have to reward this person because they stole from you. Imagine that. It's a conversation I think we need to have more and more. I think it's good to have you here as an entrepreneur and even speak about that, because, at the end of the day, we all want a better Africa, not only even Kenya a better Africa. The only way to build that is by telling each other the truth, because one thing that I think even most leaders and you can tell me if your dad used to think like this- is that I think the more they amass to themselves, the better off they are.

Speaker 2 43:09

But I'm of the line of thought that if more people are more empowered and there is more resources that is equally distributed across the African continent, there is more. Even to pay you what you can steal, yes, and it is sustainable, because if you must a lot to you and what I think what people do I don't know you can tell me if your dad also did this yeah is that they take a lot of this money or sources of chambers and river and then, if it's money, they go and hide it somewhere, maybe, maybe, say, switzerland, or there's these other places in South America.

Speaker 1 43:48

There's Cayman.

Speaker 2 43:48

Islands.

Speaker 3 43:49

Yes, All those sort of places yes.

Speaker 2 43:51

One thing they forget is that this money they're putting there is developing those places, yes, and where they call home is not developed, true. And also they forget that you know everyone has an expiry date, you like it or not. Yes, you will die, right. Yes, but what have you do? You think your children will actually like have this and do something out of it? Of course not, because they learned from you. As you said, if you go with your dad and see, my dad was not this rich Within two, three years, so you can do the calculation.

Speaker 4 44:23

Yeah, ah, this guy do the calculation.

Speaker 2 44:24

Yeah, Ah this guy became a billionaire. But the salary that they are paid and the businesses you can always do the calculation.

Speaker 4 44:30

It doesn't matter.

Speaker 2 44:31

Of course. What does that do to your children? It shows them there's a shortcut and they always strive to get that shortcut. Guess what? They're not as experienced. They either get depressed, or they get caught or they die in the process, whereas what you wanted to achieve is not possible. So I think, in the long term just to conclude this analogy of politics and you can tell us if your dad, you know, uh, was of the different school of thought yeah, is that it's more sustainable to build wealth together, everyone, you empower everyone to build wealth and there's enough for everyone. But before we just conclude, which school did your dad subscribe to? So, now that you're here, it's unfair to have this conversation about your dad.

Speaker 3 45:16

No, but I'm the one who brought him up, so it's fine.

Speaker 2 45:19

So I think those days, I think the politicians in the 60s, 70s, 80s a lot of them were pan-Africanists. That meant that they tried to look out for how can we grow together? Because those are drive around. If I just amass for myself, I have dependence for life. Yes, If I amass and build people around me, I free them and I give them that ability to go and grow and grow other people as well. Yes, yes.

Community Building and Political Corruption

Speaker 2 45:43

So one of the ways you can look at this is for us, like at home my home country, where I come from home County, we don't have much security yeah, yeah we built houses, done this and we don't have we don't have high fences, we don't have electrical this that people walk in and out of the compound anytime. Why? Because we have nothing to fear. Yeah, yeah, because yeah, because people could see. Yes, this person has gone out of their way to try and build. Each of us take people to school. He was schooling at any one point between 70 and 100 children any time paying fees for them out there and all.

Speaker 2 46:15

Sometimes I would be kicked out of school because of fees.

Speaker 3 46:18

But the other children were all kicked out.

Speaker 2 46:19

Yes, because I could use the name and I would get a few more months in school.

Speaker 3 46:23

The others don't have a name.

Speaker 2 46:24

They say that you pay the money or you don't pay the money.

Speaker 3 46:26

So he would pay the money there. That's amazing.

Speaker 2 46:28

He'd come and say he writes a letter to the teacher and say we're going to pay. Please, you can take my word that we will pay fees, and he would pay of course, because they understood that. Yeah, there were nothing to fear. You're growing with the society. You're building up people around you. You have less things to worry about as compared to when you amass yourself and become this king, the big man. Now you need people around you to safeguard.

Speaker 1 46:57

Right now people work with I don't know how many cars.

Speaker 2 47:00

But you say you're a man of the people and you're loved. Okay, then just let's mingle, because I need to be able to come to you and say look, hey, I have a problem, can you assist me on this? That the other. But if you put the blockings, what is this that you fear? And yet you're saying you're one of us? So if you're one of us, let's feel the pains together so that we this and we come up with better solutions. Done me sitting up here and loading it on you, telling you this is what you need to do, because you have no idea what's going on down here.

Speaker 2 47:28

I think he's strain of thought. A school of thought was build the community, yeah, and the community becomes your security and your safeguard because, the other ones will go out there saying no, no, no, no. This is our pass on this, that which is what used to happen, yeah, until when you got into this level of where there's so much commercialization. Now, even the community wants to be paid.

Speaker 2 47:47

But by then people just gave up themselves. Let's go to Aral. You'll find people who are mobilizing. You'll have other people who are distributing pamphlets. You'll have other people who are providing security Free of charge. They're just happy to be associated with a movement. That is positive. Now we need to get to a place where we can charge people up to that level, because if you're working from the heart, you don't worry too much about what you're going to get out of your work. If your work first output, when you say in startups the first output is the revenue, you lose all the other steps because your focus is only on the revenue and when somebody else realizes that this is all you need, they'll provide that revenue for you and they kill you the rest of the things.

Speaker 2 48:23

You have nothing else, no other substance we didn't build that up yeah, even when you go to the politicians now, when you go to elections, as you're saying, an mp probably gets what 60 million over the five years yeah assuming he attends all the sittings, he's in all the committees, which is like maybe a million shillings per month that's the official money, allowances and everything. Yeah, 60 million. Yes, but mps spend upwards of 60 million in the campaign. Yes, probably 100 million. Yes, how are they going to bridge this gap?

Speaker 1 48:48

Their first. What happened CDF?

Speaker 2 48:51

What was the name of that? It was CDF.

Speaker 1 48:53

It's still CDF the first.

Speaker 2 48:54

CDF done, or half of it is just there we go. Yeah, what do you expect?

Speaker 3 48:58

It's so bad until even Until.

Speaker 2 49:00

Even the people on the ground understand.

Speaker 3 49:02

Our man has to eat fast, you have to eat fast.

Speaker 2 49:05

You have to return the money he has invested.

Speaker 3 49:07

Why.

Speaker 2 49:07

Why? Why do we do that? Because we've heightened expectations and the importance of politics so high up that we have to live off what it gives to us it's like the biggest employer. It is so sad when you get entrepreneurs, industrialists, going to politics Because we don't have enough brilliant minds left out here to do what they were doing.

Speaker 2 49:30

Now the guy goes and becomes an MP and he was running an industry. Who's going to run the industry? Then he realizes the industry is so much work. This is much easier Now. He starts putting all the resources into this and the industry dies. The industry was supplying and supporting. How many lives? Many. You have no idea how many of them. Now they are all sitting waiting at his gate when he comes out.

Speaker 3 49:50

They need some payout. That's the big challenge.

Speaker 2 49:51

we have Not just the brain drain for people going outside the country but, the brain drain of people coming out of deep occupations when you think to these microwave surface things because, as they say, they've reduced the profile of an MP to the extent that what do they go and do in parliament? Some of them you'll never hear them for five years, never. There are people who've never spoken, never given a maiden speech, but there's no law that says you kick him out. We had the law to say we can recall, we killed it. We had the law to say we need to set the margins and the caps for the salary. We found a way to maneuver.

Speaker 2 50:24

Now we threaten the Salary Review Commission and tell them hey, if we don't we'll disband you because we have the power to do it. We're not finance, so there we go. It's so sad. The structures are there, the systems are actually there, that can work.

Speaker 4 50:37

This constitution that was built in was A1.

Speaker 2 50:45

It's not 100%, but it's close to 85. It has a lot of good things in there. We have refused to unlock its potential because we are still in the old school mentality big man syndrome. What is it need for me? What can I eat? How can I build my profile? Not, how can we move this country forward, how can we progress it? So that's the big challenge that we have and it's a mindset that needs to change from the young people because they're the ones who are the leader.

Speaker 2 51:03

We used to be told the leaders of tomorrow tomorrow came and passed, so it's. So. You're saying in this podcast that the leaders of tomorrow is this Tamiraj. This is a because, honestly, if you are like 10 years, you can choose to to be selfless and start leading at that level.

Speaker 2 51:21

Yes, but the time you're 20 and I think this actually also applies in tech whereby you start amassing these skills at that young age by the time you're 20, you are an expert in what you do, the same way that I think even we should stop this analogy of you are the leader of football, because it's a true lie. It is. It is something that you can believe, but it will never happen. It will never happen. It will never happen Because even people in their 40s, they are told you know you're too young.

Speaker 2 51:44

Yeah yeah, you should be.

Speaker 3 51:45

You still have a few more years. Yes, you need more experience.

Speaker 2 51:48

Wait a minute which actually never comes, because dynamics change over time.

Speaker 1 51:52

Yeah.

Speaker 2 51:53

Now, what do you think and of course you said this that one of the aspects that we can address education. But to an extent where we are, we need more than education because of course, there's a bigger problem that is awaiting us and I think we can see the impact right now. I used to tell some of my friends before COVID that you know the restrictions, the lockdown and everything looks okay to address the problem right now, but we're going to pay for this for the next 10 years and you can see it not only in Kenya, but tech companies in the US are laying off people and mass like 30% of the workforce, you're told. You know what? The job that you used to do, we can't be able to pay you for it. Sorry, he is a severe CEO and that is going to happen for the next maybe I don't know eight years, nine years to come.

Speaker 2 52:46

What do you think we can do right now? Because you have to pay the price. We have no other option. You have to pay the price of maybe I don't know 50 years since independence, because I hear I have seen going through the history it's not something that just happened with the last government and I think Kibaki tried to address it in a way, all credits given. He tried to do it because when he said at least the least educated person should be a class 8.

Speaker 2 53:12

That actually addressed a lot of things, because at least now someone can write, can speak, can understand, and that actually moves you from point A to B. Right now, as you sit here and someone can correct me I don't know of any free education. Someone can correct me, maybe in the comment or whatever. If you go to school and you don't pay anything in a country known as Kenya, I want to know you, I want to know where that is, because I don't know Either you're paying I don't know 500 shillings for these. Yeah, I don't know 500 for that in one or the other there.

Speaker 2 53:53

There's some payments around it, yeah, and they call it logistics, but at the end of the day, it's money. It's money, and 500 some people, even right now is a lot of money. Yeah, people get maybe three thousand, a whole month salary. Someone has two, three kids. You can imagine if they can afford those kids and it's really hard. So what do you think we can or how do you think we can address some of these issues? Look, I think, I think there's I don't want to be a defeatist, but there's a portion, there's a part of, uh, some generations that I believe. Uh, there's nothing that can change for them, that it's done.

Speaker 4 54:25

So we have to just wait until they 50, 60, 70 years.

Speaker 2 54:29

You are not going to change those people and the other ones who are the owners of Capiton. It's hard to teach.

Speaker 4 54:35

What do?

Speaker 3 54:35

they say it's very hard.

Speaker 2 54:39

New tricks, but the challenge we have is when you look at, even what do they produce?

Speaker 2 54:45

those people even not just their productivity for like resources, but in their own homes. What kind of children, for example, do they produce? Are you seeing like there's any shift between you know somebody and the child? Is the child any better than the parent and all? So it has to start from that family level. If we have found a way to live within our means, we are told okay, so there's no sugar, okay, so we're going to. I mean many times as you say, I came from a political family.

Speaker 2 55:08

But there were many times we drank black tea without sugar, we ate bread without a blue bun. There were times we didn't eat bread, white bread. Yes, doing this things we were working because there was no transportation. But then we understood that we are trying to live within our means for this period, because it's the discipline of now, so that you avoid the regret of later. But then if we cannot do that on the family level, we can't do it on a national level. So if the families were not keeping.

Speaker 2 55:40

But now, paul with all respect, paul, with all respect you're eating Ugali for breakfast and some sugarless tea and then, all of a sudden, 5 billion has disappeared. And here are the suspects. Yeah, it abits the logic.

Speaker 3 56:00

You know, like.

Speaker 2 56:02

What I've been thinking is, for instance, we need to restore patriotism when we say you know what the mistake has happened and, if at all, you can rectify it because you already know in your heart that you did this, and actually it is hurting people, and there's no point of just you alone winning and becoming, you know, either the richest person or the most influential person across the country, and other people are suffering, and here it goes down even to the health sector. Why don't we say, from today, henceforth, this is not going to happen again. And I'll give you a good example. I don't know if it's the best example, but I'll give you a good example Paul Kagame in Rwanda.

Speaker 2 56:44

The other day we were there and we were talking with some of the guys there Some of those podcasts will be released. He said that 28 years ago. 28 years ago, you go to Rwanda today. You might call him dictator if you want.

Speaker 3 56:58

You can see the difference.

Speaker 2 56:58

You can call him names that you want, but the guy is committed and he means what he says and he says what he means. The information is all over the internet. You can go and check for yourself. But when you land in Rwanda, it's a small country, no debate about that, but can you even have that small place that we say this is a safe haven for people who actually want to live? You know the right way and start from there, going upwards, because, of course, this is not something that we can address within a year or within 10 years that any president is there, but if we start now, there is a better future for all of us, because what I see actually happening, to be honest with you, is like those who stole, those who are corrupt, those who are, you know, practicing nepot, stole those who are corrupt, those who are practicing nepotism those who are just going to run for office, just to steal, there will be nothing to steal.

Speaker 2 57:52

No, that's true and that's what I was telling you. I have a feeling that there's a certain generation that is gone.

Speaker 3 57:57

That one. That's what I was saying.

Challenges in Role Modeling and Education

Speaker 2 57:58

We can't change those ones, However there's the people who now I don't want to use that analogy of leaders of tomorrow, but the actual people the real, vibrant society which is 35 and below. The challenge we're having is that what have they learned from their elders who are their role models. What is it that they can do If your relative, your uncle, your father gets away with something?

Speaker 3 58:23

and comes and celebrates with you and you're happy with it.

Speaker 2 58:26

And even you know you're bragging all over the place. Hey, you bought new cars and all these things. What is going to get you off that path? Of course, nothing, you see. So the challenge is that what is being handed down to these fellows who are their role models? When you hear somebody saying their role model is like a former governor from Bling Bling who had all the money in the world and all these chase cars and everything, that's the life that somebody is aspiring to, and they also say they didn't even go to school. You see, the other challenge we're having is that this school is not important.

Speaker 1 58:53

We're having a bout of education being big.

Speaker 2 58:56

We are crashing it with what we're doing on a daily basis by saying I was shocked that we don't need a degree to be a cabinet minister. I didn't know that.

Speaker 3 59:05

I told you we were doing rhetoric the other day. You don't need a degree. Who was?

Speaker 2 59:08

fired because they didn't even finish primary school. Who was the guy? He's from Western HSA.

Speaker 1 59:18

No, it was because of corruption it was other things that were happening. It wasn't because of his paperwork.

Speaker 3 59:23

No, it was nothing to do with paperwork. We have MPs who've gone to Class 6.

Speaker 2 59:27

So when you go and tell somebody you need to go to school, you need to get education. They're asking you why you you got your education. When I compare you, these are the guys who never went to school.

Speaker 3 59:36

These guys are governor now, so what are you telling?

Speaker 2 59:37

me. So you see, we nationalism is hurting from our own activities, actions as a nation. If you could hold that up and say, look, I mean you remember, for all his good and bad things, mishuki, whatever it is that he decided to do, he did it across borders and said look, from today, safety first. It doesn't matter if this Matatu transport is owned by a policeman, they will buy seatbelts and fix, they will put speed governors.

Speaker 1 1:00:06

We are.

Speaker 2 1:00:06

Biden. Nobody killed anyone because of that thing. We just woke up and we started aligning Same thing that you're saying Kagame did. He said certain things, certain tenets you have to live by as a nation One, two, three, four, five things. He went as far as when donors would bring money for projects.

Speaker 2 1:00:22

you tell them 40-50% usually goes back to you because you bring your cars, you bring your project managers. We don't want, if you're bringing with those strings attached, stay with your money and they aligned and now the money is there doing work In Kenya. We are still in that place where you're talking about we're going to raise to the people 80%.

Speaker 3 1:00:42

Why?

Speaker 2 1:00:42

Because we have guys there who are, you know, rent seekers, busybodies in their middlemen. Oh yeah, I'm the one who brought the load, yeah, the fuel, the what, all the money goes in there, whereas the person who's actually starving remains starving. They don't get as much as they could have gotten.

Speaker 3 1:00:59

So, if you are in place, we had a national creed.

Speaker 2 1:01:01

We had a loyalty pledge. We had social ethics during our time. I have no idea if any of these things are still there anymore. What is there to reference for a child?

Speaker 1 1:01:12

who is in school?

Speaker 2 1:01:13

When you say you need to go to school. Why that? Because is a challenge for you and I. How are you answering the? Because? Because when you go to school, what then? We can't answer that. That is the challenge that parenting is now experiencing. How are you answering and addressing that, whereas the neighbor, who nobody knows what this parent does father or mother, but they have the big cars, they have the. The kids themselves don't know what the parents do. They don't know what the father does, but they live a very lavish lifestyle. When this child is growing up, he can't understand what you're saying about going to school and all. My father doesn't look like he went to, doesn't have a degree or whatever, but he's ranking. Yours is a professor.

Speaker 2 1:01:51

But the fellow doesn't even have a car, so we're having a challenge with the role modeling that we have created as a nation.

Speaker 3 1:02:00

Not even as a family level.

Speaker 2 1:02:01

Now, the other area of growth and where we were getting self-salvation, was what the church the church was leading in bringing our people morals and all.

Speaker 3 1:02:09

Now, suddenly, we are also a conduit.

Speaker 2 1:02:13

I can't remember the last time anybody from a church or we used to have the NCCKs, we had the Alexander.

Speaker 3 1:02:19

Muggers of this world.

Speaker 2 1:02:21

Yes, the people would stand and they had the moral attitude to stand and speak when you sit and say hey, on this issue of taxation on this issue of corruption, on this they would have a platform. When is the last time you ever heard anybody from the?

Speaker 3 1:02:36

church, speak about anything, it just boils down to the offerings. This is the challenge we have.

Speaker 2 1:02:39

So if they are already partakers, you, If they are already partakers. It's the water that comes from outside that sinks the boat.

Speaker 3 1:02:48

Now, how are they going to sanitize this boat and dry it when it's still taking in the water from outside?

Speaker 2 1:02:51

So that is the big challenge. And when the kids you say go to church, even in the church someone is half-half, because this fellow last night was given some money. So he can't even speak with the light, with the salt that he's actually supposed to speak with.

Speaker 2 1:03:04

So it is down to now the parent now we're back to parents and that's why I'm saying for the parents if we are too busy chasing around doing things out there, we are not doing anything for the kids. We are then setting them up for a worse situation than ours. Where we are in right now. What is that? Corruption has been normalized. You can go to jail and be released the next day. It's not a big deal. We're in that kind of society. So I think there's still a chance. I'm not saying it's a hopeless situation, because now the world is a global village and we are seeing a lot of the countries, a lot of areas that are growing is because people are applying deep thinking, they are applying intellectual knowledge, they are getting real substance and content that they can utilize to build their lives. Not these things of just copy-pasting and saying my neighbor did and I'm also going to do. I mean, it's a very bad example to use, but you set up tomorrow.

Speaker 1 1:03:55

An ambassador shop.

Speaker 3 1:03:56

Yes, I was going to say a salon or a barber shop out here.

Speaker 2 1:03:59

There's no competition. The whole region, everybody will be coming to your shop. They will be coming to your salon and doing all these things Within three months Within which?

Speaker 3 1:04:06

three months Within one month.

Speaker 2 1:04:09

Another fellow will come. Instead of him setting up a shop that can send combs and oils and wigs, he will set up another salon like yours.

Speaker 3 1:04:17

Exactly, you have set up the traffic.

Speaker 2 1:04:19

Already You've created the goodwill in the area. The market is ready. Now, where you are getting a hundred, you're getting 50. He also gets his 50. Another man, things is happy. Another month, a third fellow comes. Yeah, this guy seemed to be making money. Okay, borrows money from somewhere, comes and sets up another one. Now there's three of you. So that's the challenge we're having and that's a very good example of given, because I'm thinking about it. Even in the tech ecosystem right now, fintech has become a very huge startup investment vehicle for different countries across Africa and right now you cannot count how many fintech companies we have in place in a span of three, four years. Yeah, that have come up because they hear that. You know flutter. We've got an investment. Yes, you know a company, xyz you're like this is it?

Creating Solutions for Societal Progress

Speaker 2 1:05:11

I'm gonna build this fintech and I think that's a mentality that actually should actually shun from, because there is so much that we can do. Even I'm thinking about if you sank the well that we're talking about in a few minutes gone in Northeastern, it's a big business. If you think about it, if you figure out drainage right now, with the dry season, the whole.

Speaker 2 1:05:36

Nairobi is smelling because the sewage system is not working. If you do this, actually, how many towns can you duplicate this? Mombasa, there's Nakuru, there's Kisumu no one is thinking about that. If you think about garbage and I'm not talking about the ones that people go to the estates collecting, you know and charging tenants for that.

Speaker 2 1:06:00

I'm talking about making the city clean and you have a contract with the county government and say you know what, enough of garbage collection and employ some people to do the work every day. We could get way ahead and create so many jobs, but we are not ready to do it, and for what reason, I don't know. No, because in mental it is hard work. Yeah, I told you about the path of least resistance.

Speaker 4 1:06:28

If you give me option, A and B, and B is easy, I will go with B, even if A will take me further.

Speaker 2 1:06:35

I will go with B Because that's where the mind says ah, quickly, quickly, let's make this thing work. I don't know who was giving the analogy about. I had a hard life, my grandfather had a hard life. I have a softer life. My father was has an okay life, may have a very soft life, my kids most likely going to have medium soft life. Their children will have a hard life. Their children's children will be able to have a terrible life and then the cycle repeats. So they say these are this is the way they say it. They say good times create bad people the name they use and then the bad times create no. Good times create bad men, and bad times create good men. And then it becomes a cycle if you're not careful.

Speaker 2 1:07:28

And that's why I don't know if this is a good example when you look at Israel and how it works. Israel is always way ahead of the cup because they can't afford the luxury of iteration of different handovers. And even when you meet them in different places because they travel a lot that's one of the things that Israelites do. You will see. Always they're articulating like what solution can I offer?

Speaker 1 1:07:52

Yes, every day.

Speaker 2 1:07:53

Every day. They go back after every two years because it's a whole community and this is the point I want to drive it to. Like Africa, we have an opportunity to recreate and correct and learn from these other continents. Mistake, because for us at least, you have a community as much as we have these borders and everything. When Africans meet, by the way, you never know, this is Kenya we look the same we think the same, we love maybe even food the same.

Speaker 2 1:08:23

We think the same, we love maybe even food the same way, we eat the same. There are a couple of similarities that we share, so we can actually, with education, of course, we can actually leapfrog from where we are right now, which is at the bottom of the pyramid and at the bottom of the food chain, and build something that actually the world can learn from From the way we educate our people, the way we manage our issues, the way we even manage the resources because there's so much resources that actually we have in Africa and even the way we grow economically.

Speaker 2 1:09:03

you know infrastructure, socially, in everything, in every aspect. And just to like, bring you back now to the parenting about your dad. Was he a disciplinarian or how did he bring a fine man like you think? I think I'm getting you where you're and I'll and I'll define the fine man here.

Speaker 2 1:09:29

I know you're heading the question, but so my dad was lucky that, uh, in the 50s, while he was growing up because he was very bright in class. He got a scholarship from the I don't know if it still exists quakers, that's Friends International. The Quakers were a very big movement in the UK at that time. Have you ever heard of the program.

Speaker 2 1:09:50

Back in the 90s were they there. I think they're there even now. There's some churches that are still operational. Friends International, the global church, is called the Quakers. They came and set up a church somewhere in our home home county and they identified some young people.

Speaker 2 1:10:08

And he stood out because he was, you know, quite, he was a sharp guy. So they picked him and said okay, sent him to the UK. So he was in Bristol, I think six years. He was a bachelor's, master's. By the time he came back he was a teacher. He came back back, he was ready high school or primary. He was a high school teacher. Okay, yeah, kisi high school taught in upper hill and other schools when he came back now he was promoted to become a lecturer, so he's a dean of students at university for many years about four years at some point along the way, the villagers just came and said look, man, this is a waste of um talent, waste of sources.

Speaker 2 1:10:44

What is this you're doing you?

Speaker 3 1:10:46

know teaching. We are here suffering.

Speaker 2 1:10:47

We need people already represented and yeah, there were very powerful politicians at that time. Very powerful name, some names. Yeah, there was a gentleman called broody nabuera. That time it was called lurambi, lurambi North.

Speaker 4 1:11:01

Now it is four constituencies okay it was split into like Malava Lugari, kiani, yeah, there are four constituencies from the one, so the chief ran all those four, yes, diligently the government is closer to us now anyway, Logan Shorty he went up with against the likes of Moses Mudavadi

Speaker 2 1:11:19

that's Mudavadi's dad was like the kingpin in Western, so he fought some serious battles In that aspect of exposure. Because of having gone to the UK and then come back and lived with communities across you know teachers are posted anywhere lived with all the communities across Kenya, he understood how tribes live and why this tribe thing is a fallacy. However, he also understood that it's not always about the threats, about the beatings and all it is. What example do you show for people to pick up from you and say I want to be like so and so so for us, for my, my whole life.

Speaker 3 1:11:52

I was never killed by my dad my mom came, not even as okay, yeah, my mom, I would be dumped one of them has to be doing the discipline part of things, so my mom had to carry that bit, but it is because all she needed to say was that I'm going to tell your dad.

Speaker 2 1:12:07

And you see, because I held him in such high regard, I felt so bad to let him down, Like I've done something wrong that needs to come to his attention. Shouldn't.

Speaker 3 1:12:16

So that was enough.

Speaker 2 1:12:18

And because of that I wouldn't say he was. Having been a teacher and being trained to teach, he knew how to deal with children. Having learned how to deal with children, and to that level of expertise, of course, he would know what to do with adults.

Speaker 2 1:12:32

So I think we had a good balance about authoritarianism and just being meek enough or modest enough to allow for free thought within the area. And what do you want to be? I want to be this and the other. For information when he went to the UK he wanted to be a lawyer. His father told him lawyers are liars.

Speaker 3 1:12:52

They take people's money, they cheat.

Speaker 2 1:12:53

Even when you're guilty, you can go and somebody will go and put up a case for you and they will win the case, even you killed. Now, I have nothing against lawyers. They do a fantastic job.

Speaker 3 1:13:03

But it stuck so strongly in my dad.

Speaker 2 1:13:05

But a lot of that is true that he refused. He didn't take up law, yet he had a great chance to be a brilliant lawyer. And he says even later in life he said no, no, no, I could still have it. I don't have a problem. He said I took my dad's words so seriously and I saw his logic in terms of for sure, if you have a case and you've killed someone, you need a lawyer. Imagine the lawyer gets you off the hook. What happens? What does the family of the person you killed think?

Speaker 2 1:13:29

You know, lawyers are bad and all this. So it created a bit of a poison in our minds as children Like, yeah, this law thing much as it is very, very, very necessary.

Speaker 3 1:13:43

So, no lawyer in your family. No, we don't have lawyers.

Speaker 2 1:13:44

We don't have lawyers because of that, Because we're like it could mean for him to survive, to do a good job. They have to get you off the hook. Whether you're guilty or not.

Speaker 3 1:13:50

I mean that's what happens, and rightfully. That's what the law says.

Speaker 2 1:13:54

Come and argue your case.

Speaker 3 1:13:57

Forget about. What can reasonable doubt? What can you prove?

Speaker 2 1:13:59

If the other fellow can't prove that you actually killed him, no death occurred. Life goes on, because where's the body, where's the weapon, all these things? So I think we learned from that. But, to answer your question, he was very open in terms of allowing free speech, free thought, so that you get to the level where you're required to innovate, and all that. But it was good trouble because it was like ah yeah, you know, even lying takes a lot of intelligence.

Speaker 2 1:14:27

It's usually to say that if you don't have a child that lies, your child is a bit dumb. Once in a while they need to lie.

Speaker 3 1:14:34

When they are growing up.

Speaker 2 1:14:36

Because otherwise they can't think out of a situation. They'll always be stuck and say, yeah, this is what happened, and those ones? Yeah, there's obviously other roles. They can be priests and all. But in life you have to find a way that you can survive. Not to be a liar, but to be understanding what is the best way to get myself out of a difficult situation lawfully.

Speaker 2 1:14:55

So he allowed us to be free thinkers and be just, you know, execute on our skills and talents to the best of our abilities yeah but when I come back to just thinking through the way what you are raising in terms of um africa as a continent, you see, much as you're saying, we are bottom of pyramid. You see, there's a big, big um drive around even just this fintech space, but it's because even the likes of mps and all these new, new age things that we've founded, a lot of them are not even in those first ones. I mean, the other day one of my brothers is in the US and he married somebody from Canada. He cannot send money from the US to Canada. He has to, cannot, he has to go and deposit it in a bank and then the bank needs to have a branch in Canada that they can go and withdraw that money.

Speaker 3 1:15:40

Today.

Speaker 2 1:15:40

I'm not talking about used to be. This is the current situation and we are here sending money to people in South Africa, in Nigeria, in all these places, tech is the leverage for leapfrogging Just through your phone. Yes, it is the leverage for leapfrogging, so that we don't have to make the same mistakes, these fellows made? We don't have to take 300 years to get to where the US is hundred years to get to where the US is?

Speaker 3 1:16:00

We don't, but then what we have? So my dream is valid.

Speaker 4 1:16:03

It is valid.

Speaker 2 1:16:05

What is holding your dream back is leadership. Yes, because the US had all these years to make mistakes with their leaders and they had the resources to burn with those leaders. We don't have that luxury. We do not have enough.

Speaker 3 1:16:18

Everyone is depending on Africa.

Speaker 2 1:16:21

Yeah, we can't 50 years is enough time for us to still be dying of hunger 50 years is enough. Yeah, there's got to be a time when you wake up and say look going forward this is what is going to happen. Yes, If we're not on that level, if for me, if you know, my auntie or my mother is unwell and she's, you know, maybe she's in Nairobi, she's, you know, maybe she's in nairobi she's been going to hospital in kakamega he has to carry her x-rays and all these other things from kakamega to nairobi to go to hospital and present them there

Speaker 2 1:16:49

yeah because hospital has no way of telling what treatment has she been receiving in kakamega no way and take an action.

Speaker 3 1:16:56

Yeah, that's a basic thing.

Speaker 2 1:16:57

Yeah, you know when you go and say, okay, this is, there's a challenge around the soil. We've been planting maize all over these years. Now the maize has been going from 14 bags to 12 bags to 10. Now we're on six bags. Tech can tell you that soil is depleted. We need to figure out a way to replenish it. What can we do? All times, you know, they used old school ways Just leave the land follow. And the Bible usually says oh, seven years and all these things we don't have that type anymore.

Speaker 2 1:17:19

But I can tell you, instead of now planting maize, let's do beans. Even in wine school we used to do science and agriculture.

Speaker 2 1:17:27

We were told when you plant maize, the next season plant beans plant. It was very basic. Now nobody wants to think that way because it's too much work to flip from the maize to the beans, to the whatever, and yet nutrients into the ground. So if we start doing the basics right, a lot of these other things will come together. But so long as we are behoven and slaves of politicians, it's going to be a difficult ride for us to get to where we need to get to. That's my only challenge. I wish we could get to the point where the US say, even if they get a monkey as a president I'm not saying they have gotten monkeys in the past but if they don't get a monkey?

Speaker 2 1:18:01

life goes on.

Speaker 3 1:18:03

Yes, it doesn't affect their day-to-day yeah yeah, we can't, because they have set enough systems yes in place.

Speaker 2 1:18:08

People will not die because so, and so is president or this party is out of power. Look at britain. They flip these things the way we flip burgers within yeah every week within days, there's another leader, life goes on.

Challenges of Wealth and Government Influence

Speaker 2 1:18:19

okay, fine. There are some, you know, glitches here and there because of policies, poor policies that have been implemented, that are affecting revenues and pensions and things like those incomes, inflation, but by and large, life goes on. Society moves on. We have to get to that point as Africans, we have to get to the point where politics is not the center of our lives. Because otherwise it means when you're trying to innovate something.

Speaker 3 1:18:40

You, Because otherwise it means when you're trying to innovate, something you have to start worrying is somebody from KRA going to come and bust me before this thing is ready.

Speaker 2 1:18:47

We've heard of so many stories of guys who've come back with brilliant ideas to Kenya. They've set up industries and they've been hounded out of those industries because of taxes and compliance and things, and the guys who are hounding cannot even run a kiosk, but they are killing this guy who has come with an enterprise that is going to employ over a thousand people. That's the sad bit there's too much government in our lives Backward mentality yes, too much government, just stay away, let me do my thing, let me grow my people.

Speaker 2 1:19:11

At some point when the revenues are good, you can come and start taxing.

Speaker 4 1:19:21

Yes.

Speaker 2 1:19:22

And they have not even started working.

Speaker 1 1:19:24

I mean, where are they even getting?

Speaker 2 1:19:25

There's no means, so you're stepping the seed when it's still in the ground. Now they say each person with an ID should get a care.

Speaker 1 1:19:32

ID.

Speaker 2 1:19:34

We are bereft of ideas, then, that's the problem, but the challenge also is that we are still thinking old ways, old school. We're not thinking new stuff. Do you think becoming rich also does something to your mind? You stop reasoning or thinking. We alluded to it in the beginning when you were talking about why do people change when they get to certain environments. The truth of the matter is wealth should not change a person.

Speaker 3 1:19:59

If you're a small-minded person, it just amplifies who you are.

Speaker 2 1:20:01

Yes, if you're a small-minded person. It just amplifies who you are. Yes, if you're a small-minded person with poor money habits even when you get a lot of money, you still have the poor money habit. We know people who are wealthy tycoons, but within a year or two of dying, the family is bankrupt. Yes, yeah, because you don't know there were loans. You don't know when you this grass is green, you don't know what it is. It could be dead bodies under there that are rotting to make the grass green?

Speaker 2 1:20:22

You have no idea, but you want to say I want my grass to be green like so and so. That guy has been killing people and they are under there fertilizing his grass. Be careful. So I think it just shows that the wealth shouldn't really change a person. They actually, as you say, your heart skill, what is your heart skill? You know what is, what is your, what is in your heart.

Speaker 2 1:20:49

It comes out louder depending on poverty or wealth, yeah, when it is small, with poverty, even the guys who are poor they share, they give each other actually the most kindest. Yes, yeah, those fellows, when they grow and they become bigger, it's because they associate with the wrong people. They get into the crowds where the other wealthy fellows who have already tainted that society. Now they stick in there and start trying to be like them.

Speaker 3 1:21:04

That's the challenge.

Speaker 2 1:21:05

But if these people would remain in their own communities with their wealth, they would never change. They would never become that Because all of them now they're in Nairobi. All of them like now they have houses in all these poshy places and the ones. I don't know the ones, I don't know the ones who retired still remain in Nairobi, or what happens, but all of them are here, regardless of where they were voted, and they just go there to visit. Well, it makes a lot of sense because the parliament is here, but nevertheless you should be able to commute because you have all the luxury of the cars.

Speaker 2 1:21:37

You're given some allowance. So what you're seeing actually can be done. And Kenya is not that huge.

Speaker 2 1:21:42

There's nowhere you can get within 24 hours if you want and if you started by the way if you told me, like you're talking about hospitals and having these challenges, the way, for example, Kagame has done and enforced so many things. At one day he woke up and said no more French. We will have to be taught Swahili and we had all these teachers migrating from Kenya to go and teach in Rwanda and they built and then they improved the public schools so much that private schools just closed on their own.

Speaker 1 1:22:06

They were not told to close, they just closed because there's no business.

Speaker 2 1:22:09

So the same way, if you go and say if you're coming from Kakamega County, you're the MP or the governor, the only way your NHIF and your education or whatever works is if you procure those services from your county. That means what? If your children are going to Kakamega primary school, you have to improve the facilities in Kakamega primary school so that your kids can go there.

Speaker 2 1:22:28

If you want to go to hospital, you're going to Kakamega general hospital. You have to improve the facilities in Kakamega because that's where your mother, your sisters, your relatives are going to. But if it is open, the way it is, three quarters of these fellows when they are sick they are all here in Nairobi. They don't care about those local hospitals.

Speaker 3 1:22:44

And sometimes maybe they go abroad.

Speaker 2 1:22:46

Now, if you force them and say we're only going to pay as taxpayers If your child is going to the local school there, if you're going to the hospital there, if you go outside of those boundaries, that is on you, that is your personal bill. Maybe a law, such a law, would be passed. You would see how facilities would improve in five years because your grandfather gets sick once, twice and he can only go to the local hospital. You will improve that local hospital and everybody else will benefit when they say, okay, now you're living in that area because we are giving you a house and we are building it for you in the county.

Speaker 2 1:23:13

That's the only house that is free. If you come to Nairobi, you pay rent like anyone else and it's not, then they will stick there and they'll start improving the houses, they'll start improving the building codes, they'll start improving the roads, water supply and all these things. But if three quarters of the time, like the guys in Northeastern, they all live here in Nairobi, when you're talking about hunger, the guy is here talking about hunger, but he's busy feasting.

Speaker 3 1:23:33

This is in Sicily or wherever it is, what is?

Speaker 2 1:23:35

the resonance. Then you want me from Eldore whatever to fundraise for that fellow, and I know the guy sits in Nairobi.

Speaker 3 1:23:43

Are we helping his county? Yet it doesn't make sense.

Speaker 2 1:23:45

All the money is being burnt in Nairobi. So I think there are some things we can do. We have put our standards so low, so low that it is ridiculous that we are even existing as a nation, because I mean the things that pass as low. You sit and you ask yourself I mean, this is the best that we can do.

Speaker 2 1:24:10

Yeah, the other day we saw and I'm not critic anyone, but we have this 45, 50 million people we went and picked 22 of the best of this, the million. That is what we are showcasing to the world, that's our cabinet the best because you see, as president, you have leeway to pick anyone, anyone.

Speaker 2 1:24:19

those are the best ones you could get. Now, if those are the standards, I'm having a problem telling my child look, go to school, get this degree, go out, expose yourself. They're like no, this is not the society I want to live in, and it is no wonder. When these techies come and they get opportunities, they are in. Let's say, you know Safaricom, and they are doing a good job, they are creating stuff. And then Google comes, microsoft, and they go and they are moved with three times the pay, for example, but they are going to do a fraction of what they were doing in Safaricom. In fact, many times they are idle, as in their brains are not really activated, they are doing things that are repetitive.

Speaker 2 1:24:51

They are very mundane tasks, but they are being paid a good salary. They sit there, of course, path of least resistance. What happens? The cells that you would have been using to drive growth and innovation? They die out because they're not being utilized, and then you get to new people.

Speaker 1 1:25:04

Is this what is happening?

Speaker 2 1:25:06

Yeah, that's how the brain drain is happening from likes of Safaricom, kcb and moving into now, because when they're going there their work rate is nothing compared to what they do in Safaricom.

Speaker 4 1:25:15

There is paradise man.

Speaker 2 1:25:17

Understandably, they've earned it because they have the skills, but can this guy?

Speaker 3 1:25:22

do his nine to five there.

Speaker 2 1:25:24

Did you just say paradise?

Speaker 4 1:25:26

Now I'm interested. Can he do his nine to five at that place and then five to nine do something for the community, to build himself, to innovate, to create something.

Speaker 2 1:25:34

That's what I've always been challenging the guys who I come across in this startup environment.

Speaker 1 1:25:37

Fine.

Speaker 2 1:25:38

Work in as many of these organizations as you can, because you need to get best standards.

Speaker 2 1:25:42

You need to understand how the world works, how systems work, Work in these big companies, get that knowledge, then go and set up something using that knowledge that helps other people also Not to go there, and you're just forever. You just want to be a guy who waits for end month. Create something, yes, yeah, be a creator as well, so that you build the society for people to have that ambition to say we can do better, otherwise we just wait to be picked off. First we had the doctors. There was the migration they all left. Then we had nurses another drive they all left. Now we are on the take-easy.

Speaker 1 1:26:12

Yeah, yeah, they are all exiting.

Speaker 2 1:26:14

No they are leaving. You can't blame them Because when they say, okay, you'll be charged 15% tax. It is 15% tax wherever they go. You'll be charged 20% when you go. The train comes at 10 o'clock. The train comes at 10.

Speaker 3 1:26:28

Yes, yes, yeah.

Speaker 2 1:26:28

And you see where your tax goes. Yes, here we are gambling. We are gamblers.

Speaker 4 1:26:32

National gamblers and the security is not ensured.

Speaker 2 1:26:35

There's no guarantee. Who knows when you leave with the money, I can't blame anyone who is leaving.

Speaker 3 1:26:42

Actually, I would encourage them. That's the challenge, so I can't blame them.

Speaker 2 1:26:45

And then now, when I pass out, I wake up and say, okay, now we're going to increase this tax and the other tax, even the little one that you are collecting. We don't know where it was going. Now you want to increase it three, four times. Where is it going to go? Guys who are coming up the youth, they don't care. They don't give two hoots about nationalism and, I don't know, patriotism and all these things.

Speaker 3 1:27:05

Where's the money? Yes, we'll chase it. Is this what I want to do?

Speaker 2 1:27:08

Yes, this thing where I used to say people do one, two, three, five years of work in one employer. Nowadays you're lucky if you get to three years. You're very lucky and I cannot blame anyone. I mean, yeah, opportunities arise. Life is short, as they say, even if it's the longest thing you'll ever do.

Speaker 4 1:27:23

They move, they move, they get to the next thing.

Speaker 2 1:27:25

they move and move and move. So the only pain or complaint I would have is when they are not looking back and pulling others up. And looking back and pulling others up is creating stuff which other people can utilize to grow to the next level, To the level where we can say, okay, let's get a national system that can automate county functions. I can look at the budget for Narok and tell how much has been spent this quarter.

Speaker 2 1:27:47

What is left? What are the projects of priority? What is the governor going to do next year? What is his priority around water? Then we can turn around and say yes, let me come with an idea that can help this guy in Narok, because I can see he has a problem with water. As it is, everything is sorry to use a word opaque. You can't tell what is where. The opaque nature of things, yeah. So how are you going to help?

Speaker 1 1:28:10

0.01 errors, you cannot apply any of your skills to help anyone Chief.

Speaker 2 1:28:17

I like how you think and, of course, as you said, we'll go chronologically so that we can understand. And even if there's a young guy who will listen to us or watch us, they can understand even what they're doing right now. They're on the right track. And even because, by and large, I believe there's one fundamental problem, and it's actually caused by only one problem, which is corruption. And that's why even someone looks up and says why would I work? And I can just become an MP or become a governor and you know, my life is sorted.

Speaker 2 1:28:57

And this problem is mindset, because, number one, our schools, even the way they are right now, they're designed to brainwash us to think the same way. Can you imagine 40 million educated? That's like hypothetical. Yeah, if we had 40 million educated people, they're educated the same way to compete for the same opportunities and actually to like even do things the same way, for lack of a better definition. So if we're able to change the mindset, then we can address some of the issues very easily, because now people tend to think how CBC is designed. It is not perfect, but it is a way of getting people to do things by themselves and also to explore what they can do and what they can't.

Speaker 2 1:29:46

So if we change mindsets and that actually happens from you learning from other people, and I believe more on apprenticeship, where you learn by doing, where you learn, you learn by looking and doing yeah and that's why I like when, uh, our guests share their, their journey, as opposed to like say you know, I was so and so I opened this.

Speaker 2 1:30:06

I'm an entrepreneur and, by the way this is something interesting Very few Kenyan billionaires. You'll sit with them down and they tell you, chronologically, how they did it To even getting the first billion, and it's so sad because now there's nothing to learn from those people. You only know they are rich Of course you can see from what they are doing.

Speaker 2 1:30:26

And also you associate richness or wealthiness with wrong things. Because someone has a car, you think they are very wealthy. Because someone maybe lives in a Porsche area, you think they are very wealthy. And, as you said, you said something very important A billionaire dies and you are like ah, there were loans, so all this life was just a syntactic life right.

Speaker 2 1:30:48

So if we change mindset and say you know what, if you're living in your place, you can afford to have a meal, maybe you have a family, you can afford to educate your children, it's okay. You don't need to swing for the fences for you to think that you're okay and it's okay. You don't need to swing for the fences for you to think that you're okay and some of these things, actually you can acquire them, but also you can use them to even enable you or your family to get to a better place. So, that said, I think where we escalated this conversation was the primary school. So we just first struck, maybe, the primary school. But if there's anything important that you think you should share for someone who is the primary school, right. So we just first struck, maybe, the primary school. But if there's anything important that you think you should share for someone who is in primary school, that actually you learned a lot. And I'll ask one single question around that.

Speaker 2 1:31:34

I know you did the seven subjects. Yeah, seven, sub-calls that one. Yes, yes, yes, yes, I did five.

Speaker 1 1:31:42

So so you are slightly better.

Speaker 2 1:31:46

Yeah, I just transitioned. When people are doing, is it five? Now even I can't remember. There's been so many changes you can't track in 2002 there so that's yeah, they might have reduced five. Yeah, five, now even now they have brought them back. I remember I used to do art and craft, which was really amazing.

Speaker 3 1:32:03

I was a good artist.

Speaker 2 1:32:06

But after they changed I was like I have to. Why do I need to draw? You understand. But now I see how you can even transform those kind of talents to sciences. When you come to doing the architecture, come to doing UI, UX, graphic design, there's so much application besides just becoming someone who draws people's faces, Like I see nowadays on the internet, there are people who actually are doing that business. It's so sad. I'm not saying it's a bad business, but it's so sad because it's not scalable. If you're not doing it, there's no one else who can do it essentially so.

Speaker 2 1:32:42

Mine was was, and you can answer according to what you think is important. Like me, I like asking a very simple question how are you able to pass your exam? To get to, is it called libon? You are a label yeah, yes so how are you able to hack the kcp, because I know it as much as the multiple choice. It is not that directly easy. So how are you able to do a study plan and be able to pass that? Or if your dad pulled the string, which you know most leaders do?

Speaker 3 1:33:15

but according to what?

Speaker 2 1:33:16

you described to your dad. I don't think he's the kind of a guy who would do that. But if he did that, don't shy around. He did it, yes, uh, because also I know, like bonnie, back in the day was alive. Yeah, become a guy. It was much I don't know about now, but yeah, you can share that experience. Yeah, so I think for me what saved me in primary school was I was a anid reader, so just read. So you read all the books, yes, and that would mean you read newspapers.

Speaker 1 1:33:47

We were lucky those days.

Speaker 2 1:33:49

Newspapers were still affordable.

Speaker 1 1:33:51

Now you have to think To a child of an MP.

Speaker 2 1:33:55

Put it that way.

Speaker 3 1:33:57

Let me give you the context.

Speaker 2 1:33:58

Me I saw newspapers in some restaurants where you went to eat.

Speaker 2 1:34:03

That is also applicable, you can imagine if the guy who worked in that restaurant the only failure he has is if he never used to read that, because imagine the owner has probably bought it for two years and maybe they never read it. So, as you say, opportunities come, they don't always tell you I am an opportunity, but me I was lucky because, number one, those newspapers, but two, I went to a school that had a library, so that was very good and that's something that, yeah, primary school it was very rare, I agree with you. And it's not far it's just yeah, lavington Primary, of course.

Speaker 2 1:34:33

That's a library, of course.

Speaker 1 1:34:35

But I was living in.

Speaker 2 1:34:37

Ofafajariko at that time, so I used to commute across bus number 50. They would come all the way. One bus to Lovington and back to Ofafa, Jericho, so Jerusalem. We went through that life. But anyway, long and short is I used to read as much as I could. Let me make some context here, so for, those who are living in Ofafa Jericho. The Ofafa Jericho you are living right now is not the Ofafa, jericho Paul is talking about.

Speaker 2 1:35:01

That was like a Loavington back then. It was a good place and then I think Lavington then was a new estate. It wasn't even built up.

Speaker 3 1:35:09

Oh, it was just another place.

Speaker 2 1:35:11

It was mostly bushy.

Speaker 3 1:35:13

Most of this area was owned by the court, it still is Most of the people bought the land.

Speaker 2 1:35:17

We are in Lavington right now the people who bought land here did not call the indigenous trees this is 30, maybe 20, 30 years old most of the area here even the buildings, so this whole area was just open, open ground owned by one guy at that time called I think it was Ole Tip. Tip Does he have a relationship with the other Ole Tip Tip. It was the original Ole Tip Tip.

Speaker 4 1:35:41

So the other one is his son. Yes, john.

Speaker 2 1:35:43

Keynes. You know they held land in trust and they had a lot of education.

Speaker 4 1:35:48

Were they Maasai's yes?

Speaker 3 1:35:48

they were Maasai's, so it's true what they say about Nairobi yeah.

Speaker 2 1:35:51

Nairobi was Maasai land, so how that shifted. I thought it's just no, it's not something that happened before.

Speaker 2 1:36:01

It's during our generation that this shift happened. All these Levington Cubs, all these areas this was bush. We used to play in this. It was just open ground anyway. How those shifted, that's historians to tell you. So I would read anything and everything I could find. That was the first. Secondly, because my dad was up and down. It meant that I needed to communicate. You see, I would go home, like on a Tuesday. He's still in parliament. I've come home, I had my dinner, I've slept, comes in the night and he leaves again at six in the morning or five. I'm not awake yet. By the time I wake up he's gone, but I can tell he was around because he's come.

Speaker 1 1:36:39

He has changed shoes. There's a newspaper, maybe it's for yesterday, like that, so every day.

Speaker 2 1:36:43

Then I realized I can't sit up and wait for this fellow. It's too late and I can't wake up very early to catch him. So he devised what A communication system, which was what Writing notes.

Speaker 4 1:36:56

So I had to write a letter.

Speaker 2 1:36:58

So you started writing at a very At class two, expressing myself and saying how school was and what I need. Okay, and then he would come home. Those would be one of the things I know when I look back. I would say, as a parent, I would look forward to such. Yeah, I've been written for a note by my child and he would come and he would respond. I don't know what he's talking about.

Speaker 3 1:37:19

But at least he's communicating.

Speaker 2 1:37:20

But it's interesting Because I kept some of those notes. Then he says down there okay, so let me look for some money Until today you have the notes.

Speaker 4 1:37:25

I still have some of them yes, oh amazing.

Speaker 2 1:37:26

I look for some of these, the money that you've asked for. Let's see what we can do by tomorrow. When I come in the evening I go, even if I haven't seen him. Then you go the next day, like that, like that, on Wednesday he comes now, he leaves a note and he has folded the money in the note that I had written.

Speaker 3 1:37:47

So when I just find it.

Speaker 2 1:37:48

I'm like man, I've made it this week. So, I get the money.

Speaker 3 1:37:51

I do that.

Speaker 2 1:37:51

I move on so he never like sent someone to do like your mom Now two things happen because of that. Sometimes he would write a note in Swahili. Now I know this is personal for us, so I can't give somebody else to read for me this note. You never knew Swahili, so I had to now step up my Swahili.

Speaker 3 1:38:12

Oh, your Swahili was not that good, it wasn't that bad.

Speaker 2 1:38:14

yeah, but now if he's writing in Swahili, you see he had been to Makerere, he had been to Dar es Salaam University as well lecturing there, so he had some very good Swahili, I'm like even I have to learn how to speak this Swahili so I now not just learn to speak, but I had to write it, so I learnt that so because of that, I was forced to be good in Swahili and English, remember he had been to the UK so I can't write broken English.

Speaker 2 1:38:38

He'll underline so even there's some learning that is going on he's marking my notes, so if he's doing that by the time we've done three months. Man, my writing is on another level. There was never. I remember I got Swahili and English both in primary school and high school. I got straight A's nice Swahili and English because of that because of just that keenness of and then he would come and say okay, now he brought nation yesterday, today he has brought Taifaleo, Taifaleo, yeah.

Speaker 4 1:39:04

Now I'm wondering this is our only newspaper in Swahili.

Speaker 3 1:39:06

I'm going to read this paper Interestingly.

Speaker 2 1:39:08

people don't know this and I think it's good to mention that Taifaleo writes good soil.

Speaker 3 1:39:13

I don't know if they do that nowadays, but I used to read detailed as the nation or maybe standard group.

Speaker 2 1:39:20

I mean standard newspaper that writes in English.

Speaker 3 1:39:26

But it wrote good.

Speaker 2 1:39:26

Swahili pieces that people could learn from, and you see, swahili doesn't have many stories. Yes, yes, if you're stating facts, you're stating facts. English, you know, is flowery. You can add things, and all that's why the Swahili newspaper was very thin.

Speaker 3 1:39:35

But you read the story when you look at the translation in English.

Speaker 2 1:39:38

The English one has taken two pages. This thing is half a page.

Speaker 3 1:39:41

It has said what needs to be said.

Speaker 2 1:39:43

Now he can write, and he just wishes to write in Swahili. Now I have to figure out words in Swahili, If I'm asking for something books Okay what is books? I figure out. What is pen? What is ink? What is fountain pen?

Speaker 1 1:39:54

You know things which in studies do you ask for I have to start figuring them out.

Speaker 2 1:39:58

Yes. So the point I'm trying to make is that, because there was a drive from communicating with my dad, I never had a worry about my language, so it created curiosity in you over time. Yes, my language. Then because it used to bring things for reading again. I read a lot. Now, if you're reading well, you already have an advantage. Yes, because, remember, everybody else is trying to first understand the language before they understand the subject. Yeah, you are going straight to the subject. So if it is science, you're reading science in english yeah, you're not trying to convert fast the thinking into english.

Speaker 2 1:40:29

Then you read the science you see, and that's one of the challenges I think we're told people like in tanzania had that challenge for a long time because everything was in swahili.

Speaker 3 1:40:36

They still, when they now start going into higher, they still do, they still do. They're doing well, they are doing.

Speaker 2 1:40:41

Yes, tanzania is going to beat us if we're not careful GDP. No, this is what I think, that you mentioned Tanzania, tanzania. When they will rise up? It's like a community rising up. Yes, as opposed to us. You know us, we're just different tribes. That's the thing. See for them. They have this one big has their own small ocean and swimming pool.

Speaker 1 1:41:00

So here this other one, if you just raise the tide for the ocean all the boats, all the boats rise yeah.

Speaker 2 1:41:07

Just by swimming pool that I'll raise. Just for me, this is a challenge that we have. Anyway, that's beside the point. It's very, very important, because now we are Africans.

Speaker 1 1:41:16

Yes.

Education and Personal Growth Through Reading

Speaker 2 1:41:17

And we have to understand that.

Speaker 1 1:41:18

I mean, I'm amazed.

Speaker 2 1:41:18

It's off topic, but last year Tanzania had 22% food production. Basically they produced surplus of their requirements. We could not feed ourselves. They imported 60%, I think of our food.

Speaker 3 1:41:34

That tells you something A nation that cannot feed itself?

Speaker 2 1:41:36

how are you going to grow? How are you going to develop?

Speaker 1 1:41:37

What are you?

Speaker 2 1:41:38

talking about New age stuff and you're dying of hunger.

Speaker 3 1:41:43

This is the problem. I think also same with Ethiopia or something.

Speaker 2 1:41:44

Yes, yeah, yes, those guys. Anyway, that's too big a topic right now, but ideally, having learned to then read, now read anything. Now, if you find it's a science book, I read the science book. I find it's a math, I here and there. And then the other thing is that I was involved in all the extracurricular activities, all of them.

Speaker 3 1:42:03

If it is football, I'll be there.

Speaker 2 1:42:04

If it is running, I'll be there. So the mind would also find a place to break from this monotony of reading, reading, reading, reading and just go and do and excel there as well. So the advice would be for people who are in especially primary school if you can find the time up on your skills for reading yeah, especially language just build up, read as much as you can.

Speaker 2 1:42:24

You will find you're reading across all subjects yes you'll find that you're appreciating different concepts and you're starting to ask yourself questions about what did they mean when they say you know, this is a millipede, this is a centipede. You try, and question things in your mind that way you create a creative, experiential thought process.

Speaker 3 1:42:44

Always querying things.

Speaker 2 1:42:45

But you're always just taking things as they are Because you see the teaching level is for down, imparting, taking, things as they are. And that's one of the worries we usually have about education, especially in Kenya. At least now CBC might change that, Because we all thought education is a vessel to be filled. You open your brain when you go in the morning, the teacher puts things. You close in the evening, you go home Until the exam comes.

Speaker 2 1:43:10

It is actually a fire to be ignited. The teacher's responsibility is to light that flame. They just need to figure out how to light it. That's it.

Speaker 3 1:43:20

That's a very important point you have put across, can you?

Speaker 2 1:43:24

please repeat it Once to light it. That's it. That's a very important point you have put across. Can you please repeat it Once you light it? It's not the education, it's not a vessel to be filled. It is a fire to be ignited Because you want to be everywhere to fill all the heads every time. But if you light the fire once, this fellow is going to keep the fire burning by himself.

Speaker 3 1:43:39

And they can spread it.

Speaker 2 1:43:44

In the same way we say you can't prepare the world for your child.

Speaker 2 1:43:48

You can only prepare your child for the world. So you can't go building roads where your child will pass, but you can create in them the ability to maneuver across any road Because that's an easier task. So the same way with education Once you realize that all you need is to be shown the direction, this is the way it's going Beyond there, having seen this, is the way you can do what you want to do, based on the ability you've been infused in. But if you're waiting to be told and for a long time it was always the teacher has said nobody would query back and ask things. So it kind of limited our abilities. When you look at the way people like Japanese and all do their stuff, it's always querying, checking, finding out Somebody does something different. They're like whoa, this is amazing here, if you did something different, you get whipped into line, you get punished.

Speaker 3 1:44:32

So you realize okay, this thing can't work.

Speaker 2 1:44:38

The other thing my dad did was to allow me to be good in the things that I was good in and not to struggle too much with the things that I wasn't good in. Now, what does this mean? We had eight subjects, I think there were eight.

Speaker 3 1:44:47

There were eight actually, not even seven.

Speaker 2 1:44:49

It's only that during the examination the religion was put with history and geography. Yes, they combined them in there. Out of those seven, he realized I was good in the sciences and the arts. What was I poor in? I think those seven. He realized I was good in the sciences and the arts. What was I playing? I think I was playing two things I had to remember, I think it was home science. I came to better in home science later in adult life even actually was part of that.

Speaker 2 1:45:12

Yes, yes yes, so that time because it wasn't a survival desire. I didn't want to know how to cook things, so they tell us bake this big. I bring funny things and I always fail that class Go and knit booties and I don't know what, tacking stitch and backstitch they were just struggles for me.

Speaker 3 1:45:29

Later in life I realized even now I repair my daughter's clothes.

Speaker 2 1:45:34

They bring and say, hey, daddy knows how to sew not the mom.

Speaker 3 1:45:37

Daddy because now I realized this was a life skill because now I literally love it.

Speaker 2 1:45:39

This was a life skill man. I need to improve on this thing when I realized, when I was now a bachelor, I can't keep tearing things and buying others.

Speaker 3 1:45:45

I'm going to repair. It doesn't make sense.

Speaker 2 1:45:46

So I bought knitting wool and all that, so I would repair. I repair my stuff.

Speaker 3 1:45:49

Using your hands or the machine. I don't have a machine with my hands.

Speaker 4 1:46:03

I remembered my science thing is not for my son.

Speaker 2 1:46:04

So he said look, instead of us me beating you to go and improve on science, I want to celebrate you to improve on your maths and your English, where I was already on 80s. Yes, continue doing that yeah this other one man, it'll. The chips will fall where they fall yeah, whatever happens, happens, yeah. So I just kept, and that's one of the challenges that parents have if you have a child who's poor in some areas. We want to make them focus in those poor areas to improve them.

Speaker 2 1:46:23

But it is always at the expense of the things that they are good at. Now they start reducing their exposure and their experience in maths.

Speaker 3 1:46:31

English.

Speaker 2 1:46:31

Swahili because they are struggling to pull up history, geography and things which they are weak in. And at the end of the day, what happens? They become average, because the 80 drops to 65, 70. The 40, fine moves up to 55, 60, but at the expense of the 80. Now they are a 60 average child.

Speaker 2 1:46:48

They don't stand out for anything, they just drift through life. If you let this fellow continue with his maths at 80, 85, 90, one day somebody will tell him you don't need these other things, man, these maths will take you where you need to go Because you're always equipped with the things that we require to survive in life?

Speaker 2 1:47:02

Yes, so that's what helped me If you can just master the things you're good at, if you can identify them early in life. You know people see what you're doing or whatever, even in primary school, and you're like okay, I can do this. Now start equipping yourself that is your key. We all are told, we are all given locks and we figure out which key is mine, the one I want to open it.

Speaker 2 1:47:26

So if you figure out that the sciences are yours, focus on that. Yeah, people will complain your Kiswahili is poor. It is man. I can't be everything. There are a few who are geniuses they are in everything, but that's why there are a few. It's not everyone, the rest of us. What we are good at, let's scale it, let's get better at it. Let's not try and be making nuclear submarines when we are here fighting hunger. Let's figure out irrigation first. We can try and get the nuclear stuff going.

Speaker 2 1:47:52

The guys in the US have figured out the food and the nuclear as well.

Speaker 3 1:47:56

Good for them.

Speaker 2 1:48:04

That's the challenge we have when we're in primary school, being beaten to be better in some subjects which you're struggling with and you start losing out on the subjects that you're good at. So that would be my parting shot for primary school. Just expose yourself to as many of the subjects as possible. Pick the ones that are good at and try and focus on that, but don't let go of your reading skills.

Speaker 2 1:48:20

Reading is very important because it improves on compression, understanding and articulating All the subjects which you're going to need so much when you're in upper primary I mean high school and the other levels, because if you can understand something, you can figure out things. If you can't understand, you're already at such a disadvantage with everyone else. So that's the big plus I would give for primary school. No, I mean, it makes a lot of sense. Yeah, and now you do your KCEP and then yes, so to come back to, your question.

Speaker 2 1:48:52

I expected to pass because I was in the top five of the school from like class five.

Speaker 1 1:48:57

Yeah.

Speaker 2 1:48:57

I think I was index five Okay, so I knew for sure I have to get into a national school I mean I never had any doubts about the guy can buy me a slot and he was never going to yeah, my brothers for information yeah, I think there's only one other who went to a national school into my forces, everybody else.

Speaker 2 1:49:13

they were given to the schools where they fell, as great, even if he was an mp, yeah, and they were not bad schools. I won't say you know saint peter, peter's, mumiya's, kamsinga. Those days Kamsinga was still a bit struggling. Now it's doing very well, it wasn't that. Oh, now that he's going to bring you into Nairobi school or whatever, no, no, no. This is the level that you've reached, right. This is what you deserve, and he puts you into school?

Speaker 2 1:49:34

Yeah, go figure it out in there. So my advantage was I saw how they were treated Because they were older than me, were you the last born by any chance. That time no, we were many, so I was six. That time.

Speaker 3 1:49:49

I like how you put it, but at that time I was the last one.

Speaker 2 1:49:52

So when I figured out, okay, I was last until class four, two others came. When I figured out that it is out of my output that I will take myself where I want to go and now start concentrating on yeah, they're getting the right grade, so I asked okay, what do I need for Alliance? Stolen setting. I said this one is going to affect my lifestyle because I have to cut football and I could sacrifice some things. I've stopped playing football after, so I said hey, it's good but I can't.

Speaker 2 1:50:19

So, I said what else can I aim for Nairobi school? I said Lenana. Because, I started playing rugby in primary school. I was like it's a school that you know Lenana is good.

Speaker 4 1:50:27

Yeah, it's good Before Nairobi school became very those days.

Speaker 2 1:50:30

Yeah, there was a competition around Nairobi school and Lenana. Upper Hill, I think Vihiga. I saw the other day winning the national rugby. I'm like well, times have changed. The sport wasn't even played in Western. Let me ask you this before you get away from this you didn't play rugby in primary school? Primary school, I played a bit.

Speaker 1 1:50:54

Yeah, I think in class seven.

Speaker 2 1:50:55

Maybe I can ask, maybe in a different way.

Speaker 1 1:50:58

What do you think?

Speaker 2 1:50:59

I never played sport in my life. The closest I came to sport was basketball, and I have my reasons.

Speaker 3 1:51:08

Yeah, I would imagine I had my reason.

Speaker 2 1:51:12

So how much do you think sport contributed to you focusing, to you becoming that brilliant or even also Holistic? Okay, where I think the importance is, there's two parts. One is just the fitness becoming that brilliant or even also holistic when I think the importance is there's two parts One is just the fitness being active. We want kids to be active and for us the struggle was a flip of what is happening now?

Speaker 2 1:51:36

We spend too much time in the field and would have pulled into the houses. Now we are chasing the kids out of the houses because they're stuck on gadgets and devices and they don't see the need for sports and outdoor. So for us, for me, the first thing was just to be active and fit, and I was, like you know, those days there weren't too many lifestyle issues you know diseases and all, so you could still enjoy life just in the house. But there was no life in the house, nobody was in the house.

Speaker 3 1:52:00

Everybody was outside, so I wanted to be out there Play from morning till evening. You don't even have lunch. Even TV was not a big thing.

Speaker 2 1:52:05

No, it wasn't, Because it used to be like six hours Opens at six and closes, I think, at midnight or something like that. So we were okay with that.

Speaker 1 1:52:17

Don't even have to sit and watch TV For information. We never had a TV.

Speaker 2 1:52:22

Even if he could afford to buy a TV, he never bought a TV. The TV he bought was when I finished high school.

Speaker 2 1:52:26

The first time we owned a TV and it never changed my life. It wasn't a big deal for me because there were so many other things we were doing. We had to develop skills communication skills, networking, talking with people. Now we are struggling with those skills because we are too much in gadgets. We are here with you and I text you and say how are you doing? I can't speak to you. I can't walk up to you and say I mean, people decide let's go out from the restaurant for a meal and everybody's on their devices. The parents have decided today we just want to connect with the kids. The kids are all on devices. They are in the restaurant waiting for a meal. So it's very sad. Anyway, sports is important in that first aspect for activity. Secondly, it's just to build that bonding aspect and the teamwork.

Speaker 2 1:53:05

Because, there are some sports. Much as I could dribble in football, there was no way I was going to dribble 11 people. True, true, I dribbled three four.

Speaker 3 1:53:11

Then I got tackled.

Speaker 2 1:53:12

So you learn to work with people, depend on other people as well, and just how do you get people to do things that they probably don't want to do?

Speaker 3 1:53:20

The influence part of things.

Speaker 2 1:53:21

Yes, Nobody really wanted to be like a goalie.

Speaker 3 1:53:24

But then you'd sell the narrative.

Speaker 2 1:53:25

Ah, you know, if you're the goalie, you can see what's going on.

Speaker 3 1:53:27

In fact, you just you chill, you just watch the game, even become the coach. You can tell as well, yes, but then you know this guy is going to get all the hot, so we convince him about the way it will be. In fact, we will keep the guys, the pros of everything.

Speaker 2 1:53:41

Yes, we will keep the ball up there. They won't come this way when you know you're playing a victory Until, Until those guys turn the tables and they start attacking, Then he's getting shots left right. By then he's already in the groove. He's not going to come out.

Speaker 2 1:53:54

He'll be like no, I committed to my to then at the end of the match it's like, eh, I would never have on my own, would never have picked to be a goalkeeper, but you guys convinced me. So that's another aspect of sports, just having that ability to pull people together towards a common cause even if that common cause has no monetary value.

Speaker 2 1:54:14

How about just do something for fun? Yeah, it's a very good aspect to have mentally, have mentally there's something you could just do. There's no benefit from it If you can have that kind of a mentality. Not that everything is about money and revenues and getting something back. How about just give of yourself? Sports helps in that.

Speaker 2 1:54:31

People get injured fighting. We have guys who've run for this country. They played football. People die doing the sport. I didn't want to go to die, but yes, To that level. And yet there are others who would not lift a finger. They'd rather sit and figure out routes to siphon money. And those are the ones we celebrate and say they are our heroes.

Speaker 3 1:54:52

The guys who did the good stuff, the big things.

Speaker 2 1:54:55

They are just wasted somewhere and we wait for them to die. Then we celebrate them, put them in big books and put them on the newspaper, send money to the widows. I mean it's, it's sad, but anyway, to answer your question, yeah, that was what sports did for me. Yeah, and then I realized that I built a bit of a fame around it, so by the time even I was applying to high school. When you say, I do this, I play this, I do what they're like, yeah, we want this guy when I was being admitted to school and they they look at the things you've shown as your interest.

Speaker 2 1:55:20

Certain people houses, housemasters will come and say no, we want that one.

Speaker 3 1:55:24

This guy seems like he's good in this. Let's bring him to our house, so there was some competitive advantage to argue.

Speaker 2 1:55:30

Yes, it gave me a bit of that competitive advantage. So that's what I would say was helpful for me in terms of yeah. How was your first day at Lenana, lenana you meet all these people from all over the country For information, the guy who so I was off. My dad didn't have time to take me to school. That day unfortunately, I think it was out of the country, so I was taken by my mom.

Speaker 1 1:55:51

It was still okay.

Speaker 2 1:55:53

And everybody's pleasant and happy. And you can see, you know there's joy and things are looking.

Surviving High School Challenges

Speaker 4 1:55:57

It's Yalana bro.

Speaker 2 1:55:58

Very good, the very good the hall is clean and you finish, and then you get your trunk out. Then they open the trunk and they find all these funny you know illegal things, you know biscuits, I don't know, these ones can't go. They're telling my mom no, no, no, I don't need this. They remove all the things which are like junk and all. Then I say how much money. He says.

Speaker 2 1:56:16

I think she's giving me like maybe for the time 100 shillings, Like wow, they don't even give it to me, they give to the housemaster 100. And then they call the house prefect to come and help me to the house. And who was the house prefect? I was lucky that you know. I got inducted into people who I had ambitions from a long time ago. A guy called Hasan Omar Hasan who was vying for the Mombasa governor.

Speaker 2 1:56:43

Yes, yes that was my house, my house prefector. The one who came to pick my box, it was like hey, hey, hey, so we started talking. You know our things, whatever. In the 10 minutes that walked from the hall to the house. He had given me these things and don't worry, we'll be together very smooth, very good guy. Then I get to the house and then people are not around.

Speaker 2 1:57:06

Of course they're in class and then I think at four o'clock everybody just descends to the house. At the first day, that was the last time I saw all my belongings in the trunk. That was the first time I saw them. It was that bad. It was bad, it was crazy the charts, the new clothes, everything comes. These are new things. Then they don't even ask you to open. A guy stepped in the middle of their truck.

Speaker 3 1:57:26

It's a metallic truck.

Speaker 2 1:57:27

I don't know if they call it. They used to call it that way. They used to say butterfly.

Speaker 1 1:57:31

Yes, they made it open itself. Yes, they don't use a key, they just pick the things.

Speaker 2 1:57:37

We are equal. Everybody's the same level. There's no one who has anything new and all they're like hey, I don't have a shirt, I'll get throws for you some old shirt. Yes, be pretty good.

Speaker 4 1:57:45

So you can't walk naked.

Speaker 2 1:57:47

No, so I learned right from the beginning. Hey, this life is how you maneuver, how you survive.

Speaker 1 1:57:52

And this is the real world. Now, it's the real world you have?

Speaker 2 1:57:58

I don't think that's how, even out here everyone is operating. That's how it is so you have to just take care of your things. This thing of crying now you know you want to start calling people from home. We didn't even have cell phones.

Speaker 3 1:58:08

There was no call box.

Speaker 2 1:58:10

You can write a letter, yes, but you should take a week and a half to get to where it's going. So who are you going to tell?

Speaker 4 1:58:14

And how many times will you do this?

Speaker 3 1:58:16

Because if you, the process is the same.

Speaker 2 1:58:19

Yes, so you, just you find your level. Basically, you find your level and realize, okay, I have people here, these are colleagues of mine from once. We can survive together, start making friendships day one, because you have to survive. There's a girl giving an alarm when the fourth formers are coming. He sees them, whistles or gives some monkeys do quickly, and we know what needs to happen. Guys, monkeys do quickly and we know what needs to happen. Guys, those for hiding will hide under the beds. The other guys, you know, you learn tactics. You start again remembering how to pull people together, teamwork for a worthy cause. We are now together defending. So high school was very rough in getting in and because I also had come from a bit of a sheltered background, because life had been a privilege.

Speaker 2 1:59:00

Yeah, life had been a bit okay then I realized that I'm not going to start writing to this fellow who used to read my notes telling him the way.

Speaker 3 1:59:06

School is bad. There's no way I was going to start telling him.

Speaker 2 1:59:08

That's why I said, yeah, I'll survive through this thing. So two, three weeks, one month, I think two months. By the time the second month was done, I was okay. I was like, yeah, so that's the, the monolization that you got, or well, that's just a tip of it.

Speaker 3 1:59:20

It was worse there were many other things.

Speaker 1 1:59:22

What was the worst?

Speaker 2 1:59:23

There were Wow, there were many. Let me try and see which one was the worst of them. That one was bad because they stripped me of everything that I had right at the beginning.

Speaker 4 1:59:35

So now I was starting from zero.

Speaker 2 1:59:38

But then the money disappeared.

Speaker 3 1:59:41

The hand in Bob, yes, the hand in Bob disappeared.

Speaker 2 1:59:42

The hundred bob, yes, the hundred bob disappeared so I never had any way of surviving. And people are, you know. They have to buy bread to supplement food and everything. I have nothing. I tried to speak English there. People started looking at me like this one.

Speaker 3 1:59:56

What kind of English is this? Because you're trying to speak good English.

Speaker 2 2:00:00

Everybody else is speaking local colloquial, broken English, yeah. So I'm wondering, I mean my colleagues, because you see national school people are from all over the place.

Speaker 3 2:00:09

Yes, it's true.

Speaker 2 2:00:11

So now you start being described that guy who pretends to speak fluent English and for a guy sometimes speaking English it looks foreign.

Speaker 3 2:00:17

It becomes a liability.

Speaker 2 2:00:20

So I went back into my Swahili, which was still fine. But then I had to call. You know you're given people have come from training for rugby. You're given the shoe. The boot is removed. Why are you just thinking? So I call your mom. Explain to her why you're starving. In school A guy wakes you up at 2 am. They've come from studying. Those are for four months.

Speaker 1 2:00:38

Yeah.

Speaker 2 2:00:43

Tells you, gives you a bag, paper bag.

Speaker 3 2:00:44

Tells you one pack for me, Four darknesses come out there and take to the other house on the other side yeah.

Speaker 2 2:00:47

The house is. The school is 287 acres. Yeah, one house is on that end, the other house is is about 15 minutes walk. Ah, at 2 am, in your vest and slippers you don't even know which house. Then you get to the other house, you realize whoa, these are set up because those guys have also just come to the house. After reading. So you meet with the house, prefect, whoever it is.

Recovery From High School Struggles

Speaker 2 2:01:10

He says, ah, in fact I was told. Yeah, I'm getting some help. We need to flood this room. Now you start washing the rooms At 2 am 3 am. It was terrible, because those are not things that I had expected of an astro school. You thought these are intellectuals. Yeah, slimmed a cream from the country.

Speaker 3 2:01:27

What madness is this so?

Speaker 2 2:01:29

it's almost 30 years ago, so there were many terrible experiences, but I remember those because they were highlighted right from there. The good thing about our mental minds they grasp onto the good things tighter than the bad things.

Speaker 2 2:01:41

Yeah, especially the bad things are not too traumatic they release them because the mind doesn't have time to keep holding on to the negatives, unless you decide yourself you want to record the negative things and keep reading them over and over and entrenching them in your mind. Otherwise the human mind has a way of just filtering out the negatives and leaving you with the pleasant memories so I I had by the end of fast first time fast form, I had made friends across, I think, what went around. I was happy that my dad didn't drop me because to doff caused a fiasco because all they are seeing the cow GKs and all.

Speaker 2 2:02:11

It would have been an issue now that they came to realize much later because of the name. And then I think my this guy, hassan, went and told guys in his car we have some serious guys in my house.

Speaker 3 2:02:24

Suddenly people are coming.

Speaker 2 2:02:27

They are bringing new stuff they want to carry favor, so I started getting a few privileges. Were there guys from your village? Yes, there were a few, who I realized later that my dad had actually helped to join the school that was helpful because they were like you know, your dad was the only did this.

Speaker 2 2:02:43

The other one tells you oh, my dad works with your dad, I don't know what. So there was a good. Now I was imagining in my head if he was an evil guy, yeah, I would really have suffered. Your dad is one who frustrates my dad at work. You know, it would have been quite crazy, but they were like ah, you know, helpful guy, he helps things, so it calmed me bringing you. Ah, he has bread, they get me bread. The other guys start asking me hey, kwani, what have you done to these guys?

Speaker 3 2:03:05

I'm like I have not done anything.

Speaker 2 2:03:06

I don't have anything. They stripped me of everything, but they're like okay, at least they understood. The only downside which was a risk was I got so sucked up into that life that I found myself now with the guys of drugs. You know, guys, that they have wheat with. There was a supply of all sorts of things. Now the trick was if they can get me into that you're good yeah because I have the means to keep getting them these things and did you use drugs suddenly.

Speaker 2 2:03:32

I lived that life for at least one year, the first form.

Speaker 2 2:03:34

I was in that life for you are a customer across the boundaries got to drink some illicit brews and all these things, the whole of first term, first form, actually, yeah, it was a bit crazy and at that time, I think also my dad was so busy so he didn't really notice what was going on? My mom was at that time had moved back to upcountry. She was now heading towards retiring, so she also didn't know. But I was in boarding school and I'm thinking these are what big people do.

Speaker 4 2:04:04

Teenager. Now you're trying to find my space in the world.

Speaker 1 2:04:09

Yes, that was a transition.

Speaker 2 2:04:12

So you go there. Is your interest in science still the same? Yes, at that time as I began, of course I knew the languages. I would never have a challenge or a worry there. But I also picked up mostly biology I was interested in. I actually wanted to become a doctor. I felt that I had the heart to give to help to do all these things. I thought I had some good brain on me as well.

Speaker 4 2:04:39

Why do?

Speaker 3 2:04:40

I feel like this one will end in a funny way.

Speaker 2 2:04:42

I want to be a doctor In the reality. So, anyway, um, what? What changed everything? Was that slip up in form one, because, as you know, in high school, form one is mostly definitions and things. For all the like 15 subjects, yes, yes. And then for us, in form two, you cut them down to like 10. I think you dropped five, yeah, and then from three, now you specialize in I think seven or something, I can't remember. Yeah, so in form one, definitions and all that was all we used to do.

Speaker 2 2:05:08

And I realized these ones I can't. I don't even need to read much.

Speaker 3 2:05:11

I know these things, man.

Speaker 2 2:05:12

See, I was in the top percentile I of admission. I was in that top a cream across the country, or just in now in the school.

Speaker 3 2:05:23

No, no, so I knew yeah, there's no worry here, man I can do my thing, so I'll cut up. I know what I'm doing that life, never, never the time I get into second form now.

Speaker 2 2:05:37

I'm so deeply ingrained in these mad, crazy things that guys are doing you know, breaking breaking bounds every other day, doing stuff that by the time I'm trying to recover now to start getting into proper school work. I was in like a form two, second term. I don't have my notes in the whole of form one. So I don't have anything I'm building on Now. They are moving on to the next step, so there's no time to give you a break to catch up.

Speaker 3 2:05:58

No, because things are moving.

Speaker 2 2:06:00

Now I had to start trying to put in double. By the time I was realizing how far I was. It was actually my mom who pointed out and she said your dad has been seeing the grades you joined. You are number 25 out of 225. Second term you are number 40. Third term you are number 90.

Speaker 3 2:06:16

Okay that's from one as ended From two, first term.

Speaker 2 2:06:19

I already had breached 200. I was number 200.

Speaker 4 2:06:23

So 90 is not the worst case scenario here.

Speaker 2 2:06:25

No, Not 90. No, From 2 second term I was at 210 out of 235. That's 235 across the whole stream. I was 210. What you know, what this guy has said he has his farm and things and cattle.

Speaker 3 2:06:42

There's a lot of work for you.

Speaker 2 2:06:44

I can't understand why we are spending all this money.

Speaker 4 2:06:45

And those days it was.

Speaker 2 2:06:47

I think fees was like 25,000 a term it wasn't small money, that's a lot of money.

Speaker 3 2:06:52

Yeah, early 90s it wasn't small money.

Speaker 2 2:06:54

Instead of wasting this money, he could buy two cows with that money and you go and take care of the cows.

Speaker 1 2:06:59

Yes.

Speaker 3 2:07:00

And things will be okay. Why should we take another cow to school?

Speaker 4 2:07:03

There we go.

Speaker 2 2:07:06

Anyway. So I realized she was serious, because she told me everyone else has given up, they've said it's not worth it.

Speaker 3 2:07:12

You've chosen this path.

Speaker 2 2:07:14

It's just me who is here now. It's between you and I, and you know when you're doing.

Speaker 3 2:07:17

The cabinet has sat down.

Speaker 2 2:07:18

Yes, they have decided this is unsustainable. She was really a diplomatic person. Yeah, she was.

Speaker 4 2:07:25

She was her teacher, so she was very good, but she told me, every time kids do well, they are kids of the father.

Speaker 2 2:07:33

Every time kids fail in life, they are kids of the mother, especially if it is a house that has both parents. The father takes credit for the good stuff is a house that has both parents. The father takes credit for the good stuff, the mother is dumped on the bad stuff. The one who has failed is the child of the mother. Now we are stuck, you and I Just the two of us.

Speaker 2 2:07:52

These are the fellows. Much as they were in poorer schools. They've done well in life and they have moved on. Now it is just you and me and you've been told, and I cannot be taking your blames no, that it is, you are mine, so it's true you're my child, but we can't be being referenced like this. So out of my love for her, because she stood out for me, I changed and said no, I have to improve, Didn't need to change.

Speaker 1 2:08:14

Yeah.

Speaker 2 2:08:14

I have to improve. I have to do something about my school schoolwork. So now, instead of doing extra, so now, instead doing extra, I would go writing my notes are fresh, getting books from people. That whole of second time, yeah, two, I try and now get all my stuff in order. I was still getting my ease in. You know biology and things.

Speaker 3 2:08:33

I was like man, but things were not adding up this team of mine yeah, because now I don't have the notes.

Speaker 2 2:08:36

I have gaps, so and you could not borrow this from your colleagues. No, because sometimes you can't see the writing, the writing for high school kids. Man, you can't read the other guy's writing.

Speaker 2 2:08:46

So, I have to look for my own way so I get the books I try and start reading, go to the library, spend time. Now I have to invest that discipline that I had released. I had to now bring it back. Get it back and take the pain, the immediate pain for the future benefit. So I struggled through that. By the time I got into second term I mean second form, end of second term I think I had gotten to midpoint.

Speaker 4 2:09:09

So I was now back to about 180.

Speaker 2 2:09:12

So I've gotten about 30 people that I've beaten.

Speaker 4 2:09:14

That's good. I'm improving now.

Speaker 2 2:09:16

I'm not bottom from 30. Those ones used to always be called to the principal every beginning of the term. If you're anyone from 200 to down there, you just go and receive free cans just because you're in that section.

Speaker 4 2:09:28

Yeah, yeah, Just for fun.

Speaker 2 2:09:32

Yeah, not fun. You've qualified, You've qualified for the can, so you go for it.

Speaker 3 2:09:36

Not about the top 10 or something

Speaker 2 2:09:37

like that no those ones nobody used to talk about. They would always be rewarded anyway. So then I now started changing the friends people I was hanging out with, because high school, the biggest danger, even in boarding school, it's just people the crowd, you keep. If you keep the wrong guys, by the time you realize it, you have the wrong results.

Speaker 3 2:09:53

So far.

Speaker 2 2:09:53

Yeah, they usually say you know, two cabbages don't make a piece of meat. So that's a new information. You're killing each other saying I'm better than this guy.

Speaker 1 2:10:01

But he's also a cabbage.

Speaker 2 2:10:03

Do you think that's also where we are as African countries?

Speaker 3 2:10:06

We always compare ourselves with the cabbages.

Speaker 2 2:10:09

They usually say we are giants among dwarfs, you're the tallest dwarf. They say hey, kenya is doing well, but who are we measuring against? We're measuring against Uganda and that's not to talk badly Against.

Speaker 3 2:10:21

Tanzania against Uganda.

Speaker 2 2:10:23

No, no, no Of course Uganda is not doing well.

Speaker 3 2:10:25

It's the truth.

Speaker 4 2:10:26

Let's be honest. Let's be honest, yeah.

Speaker 2 2:10:28

So if we were to come out and say, look, this is not our peer, we released or lost our peers with the Singaporeans of this world, the Koreas of this world, they took our blueprint and they went and did amazing things. Which means the intellectual, we have it. It's the execution that is the problem. We have all the brilliant ideas, but we just can't find a way out. Even for the case of Uganda, to bring context is that it's only that they have enough food.

Speaker 2 2:10:54

They're self-sufficient, they're not starving, not that they don't have smart people, but the system put in place. It's really, really hard even to implement that brilliant mind in Uganda. I mean the freedom is not there. I mean we talk about our situation, the way we are in a bad place, but the truth is, man, I can stand out here and start shouting mad things.

Speaker 2 2:11:14

Nobody will arrest me For sure, as long as I'm not breaking the law nobody will arrest me, we can decide tomorrow we're going to march to parliament, we just inform the central police guys and we march there, we state our views and we go back home. Uganda man, we might not leave our house man, even a watchman has a gun.

Speaker 1 2:11:29

And he's part of the security system.

Speaker 3 2:11:31

Yes, exactly.

Impact of Parental Influence on Development

Speaker 2 2:11:33

Your guess is as good as mine. So yes having realized that, indeed, the guys I was hanging around were pulling me down, so I had to now shift a bit. Thankfully, the guys who had influenced me were mostly the performers in form one had left when I got some respite, but a few people who pulled me and said hey, man, you know, for the pride that your dad has done and all these things, man, this is not right. Yeah, you need to get back on track.

Speaker 2 2:11:57

So I got back on track yeah, by the time I'm getting into third form, I think I had reformed to the extent where now my dad was like, yeah, let the guy do another term, we'll see how things are.

Speaker 3 2:12:07

Before we buy the cows.

Speaker 2 2:12:08

Yes, he even came and visited. He had never visited me in school. He came to visit me in third term. Ever since I joined form one, he had never come, Because by the time he wanted to come in second term or third term. I was doing so badly. He didn't want to be associated with this and he can come in the bottom of the class.

Speaker 4 2:12:26

What am?

Speaker 2 2:12:26

I coming to see here, but my mom came every time.

Speaker 3 2:12:30

As I tell you, those failures are the mothers.

Speaker 2 2:12:32

So, she came every time. Look, as I told you, man, we're just, it's just. Us Save the face. She saved my life. Truth be told On that aspect for school face. She saved my life. Truth be told on that aspect for school. She saved my life because after that, is she still there? No, she passed on last year, okay, but anyway. So those things, life, no, mom, mom, they never cease to be moms. Yeah, to be honest till you can't, even at 40, she'll picture you.

Speaker 4 2:12:57

What are you doing?

Speaker 2 2:12:58

fathers. You know, when we grow up we can talk men to man, but mothers will still be having that. There's a respect level, yes, yes. And then this is there's an oh, especially not to talk negatively in gender wise, but especially for boys. Yeah, mothers are special, yes, yeah, I mean, if you really want to crush a man, yeah, play with their mother.

Speaker 1 2:13:19

Play with the mother, especially if they, you know the mother is alive when they're not there. It's not too big a deal but.

Speaker 2 2:13:24

If they have grown up all along and the mother has been there. The father, he will even help you to beat up the father. But the mother, so we went through that he came and visited, told me I have had good things all this time. When I would go home on holiday he would be very busy so we would never get to talk.

Speaker 4 2:13:43

We never, wanted to associate at all, so I went back to writing letters.

Speaker 2 2:13:48

So now I'm in high school so I write for full scouts Communication yeah, for full scouts, you know both sides Narrating everything. Then he answers with one paragraph, just one paragraph. Went to school to learn, supposed to do this, that the other. I think you're still far off from those ideals. The day that you get back on track there, I know we can have a good conversation.

Speaker 2 2:14:12

So I can't ask for money, even for shopping. I can't do that, so now I had to go through my mom. You know, now things are not good, so she'll channel from what my brothers are being bought for. She put some aside, yeah, yeah, don't tell me that. Don't tell him that you got anything just say you went the way you are so it would be like that till that time in that form, and he came and we sat down and we had an adult conversation what do you?

Speaker 2 2:14:36

want. Yeah, you know, life, this life, is yours. Whatever you want to make of it, make us, we're yours. Whatever you want to make of it, make as we are there to support. You want to be a farmer? I'll support. The only thing I can't support is breaking the law. So you can't be like a thug, you can't be a drug dealer Things that are breaking the law, you can't. But if you tell me you want to be a tout, I will look for money. We buy a matatu.

Speaker 3 2:14:58

You want to be a things that are making sense whatever your heart wants. Don't have to struggle here with this.

Speaker 2 2:15:03

This thing is not for everyone and at the back of his mind he knows these guys are brilliant guys playing around then he gives me examples of guys from the village he's doing well he has a couple of.

Speaker 1 2:15:20

He's married, he's set up. He'll be well. He has a couple of he's married.

Speaker 3 2:15:22

He's set up. He has three children. Don't worry, he'll be well. You can also do the same.

Speaker 2 2:15:26

You have good education. You can be speaking English For people there. I looked at him and in this conversation you didn't like Burst into laughter.

Speaker 1 2:15:34

No, no, I couldn't laugh, it was very serious, by the way.

Speaker 3 2:15:37

It was serious but I could see. But right now you think about it like yeah, I laugh.

Speaker 2 2:15:41

This is a true conversation, but it was one of those life-changing conversations and sometimes you just need somebody to steer you back. So two things to steer you back. And another one who believes in you Even when you don't believe in yourself, because my mom believed in me. So are you saying that having two parents actually brings the balance proper balance in someone's life? Yeah, when you're growing up, truth be told people from the full families they have an advantage.

Speaker 2 2:16:07

That's just the way of life. They have an advantage because they're pulling off from two sources. So where you can have maybe a single perspective, where it's only a mother, she can only give as much as a light can shine. And the other guy, father, even him, his torch only goes in a certain direction. Yeah, that's the only thing he can see. Yeah, you see.

Navigating Life's Challenges and Opportunities

Speaker 2 2:16:31

Yeah, when you have both of them, the mother is seeing wide beam, the father is seeing narrow beam, straight tunnel vision. Yeah, when you combine the two you go much further. Yeah, so if you have none, it's even now harder. Yeah, yeah, because now you're depending on other people's lights and sometimes these guys, where they are going, where they're actually pointing their torch, is into darkness. It's the wrong place, but then they're the only people you have. This is the only light you can see. So you move on with it until the day when you're in a place where you can actually gauge and say this is not the direction I want to go. So, yeah, I still profess that it helps when both parents are there, if there are such homes they have an advantage.

Speaker 2 2:17:06

That is not to say they will be perfect, and that is not to say people who come from broken or non-parent families will not do well. Sometimes they actually do much better because they are forced to embrace their Goliath earlier. And there's just life. There's something about embracing your Goliath. Earlier in life, you set yourself on a trajectory, the David trajectory. You know where your smooth stones are, you know where your sling is, you know how to swing it. The rest of these fellows start realizing where do I get these stones?

Speaker 2 2:17:39

late in life, because that's when they've been exposed to now. Okay, there you go, leave my house, go and make a life for yourself when they're tall enough. They're like man where do I start? You're starting when the other fellow has been doing this for like 30 years. So you see, there's always that advantage. However, there's also the balance, where, while this guy is the father is picking the five stones for himself, he shows the son or the daughter yeah, this is where you get the stones.

Speaker 2 2:18:03

You see, you'll still have an advantage over the other guy who had to go discover his own stones and how to swing for himself. Half the time before he swings he's hit himself twice or thrice, because that thing you have to have mastery. If you don't swing it properly, you can actually commit suicide.

Speaker 4 2:18:17

It's not like a gun, where you point and shoot.

Speaker 2 2:18:18

No, you swing like this. It comes back straight at you. Are you swinging or are you killing yourself? What happened you?

Speaker 4 2:18:24

know, but now you have a parent who is?

Speaker 2 2:18:26

swinging for you because they are embracing the goalie earth on your behalf and showing you Now you start building the strength and the muscles early enough. So I would always say I can never advocate for, you know, broken families. That's the way to go. I know new age nowadays, yes, we're saying anything goes, but that's not the ideal. The ideal is that if you can get the ideal situation, please thrive in it.

Speaker 1 2:18:48

It's hard, but you should.

Speaker 2 2:18:50

Yes, you should, if you don't have it, don't kill yourself because it's not ideal. No, don't lie there on the ground saying, ah, now you see, because they have a father and an aunt, since, yeah, there are a lot of people who've done so well in life they never had. They were orphans from a very early age. They never even knew their parents and they are thriving.

Speaker 2 2:19:08

There are others who have been babied up to age 60 and they are a mess, I mean you, I can name names, that's not here where they were given everything, yes, and they kept looking up, looking up to this father and he kept providing, providing, providing, providing Until he left, until he left when he left. Then they're like oops.

Speaker 1 2:19:24

Where do I start?

Speaker 2 2:19:25

Yeah, at 60. Now you're starting to fight about inheritance At 60, you never, ever, did anything for yourself. So that's the challenge. It's a difference, but if you get somebody who gives you the balance, you're better off yeah. So you, you, you did your kcse kenya certificate of secondary education. Yes, and you, you performed really well. It wasn't really well, I did very well in my non-sciences. So first, the doctor dream died in the platform when I realized for me to excel in to go onwards to doctor.

Speaker 2 2:20:00

To be a doctor, I need to have both, I need to have both. I need to have all three sciences.

Speaker 3 2:20:04

Yes, and perform really well.

Speaker 2 2:20:05

Yeah, physics, chemistry and biology. I had already dropped physics in form two. Yeah, through advice from the guys who are perpetually high.

Speaker 3 2:20:16

The peer pressure. So they told me no, no, no, Don't need that.

Speaker 2 2:20:20

By the time I was realizing it. This is that form there was no way I could rescue mm-hmm so by extension also the chemistry also yeah, so I was left with only biology. Okay, this probably won't work. I said anyway, we'll make good. So past was called to uni, but I was called for education.

Speaker 3 2:20:37

I was called to.

Speaker 2 2:20:38

K you to do education. I, coincidentally, one of my brothers had been to KU for education. My dad had been a dean of students KU, so it's like, yeah, this is okay. Oh, the amazing thing is that he was shocked that I passed. He was shocked beyond because from third term third form. He always knew. Ah, this one will just you know just go through and yeah we just finish school and see what else he can do.

Speaker 2 2:21:01

Then, when the grades came out, he actually bought me a card and he had never bought anybody a card in the family for doing an exam was that my dad.

Speaker 3 2:21:09

What did he buy? A success card I mean a congratulations card, yeah, those big massive things, but I still have it, by the way, some nice things. I look up to him like yeah very special.

Speaker 2 2:21:19

Yeah, we did something. Yeah, someone said yeah, no, yeah, no, because I told him oh, you know, I had wanted to be a doctor. I'm so disappointed. Don't worry, you performed more than I expected.

Speaker 4 2:21:29

You have no idea, you have no idea what I was expecting.

Speaker 2 2:21:33

So we had a conversation. He told me what his expectations had been. So I was like, okay, it happened. My mom had my back, because if this was the case and it had filtered through to me, I would have done very poorly, because I've been like if he has given up, so what's the point? What am I struggling about? Let me leave it yeah my mom was like no, you can be anything. Yes, just keep striving. Yes, so finish that. And then I spent the whole of the following year. I can't, it was an election.

Speaker 2 2:21:56

Yeah so now I was in full campaign mode with my dad, so we went through that campaign running for election. Blah finished, he got in and then now he said okay, usually we used to wait one year before you go to campus yeah so, after finishing the one year and I asked me, okay, so are we going to, okay, what's your idea?

Speaker 2 2:22:14

I said I've tried to change the program around to be a teacher, blah, blah, blah. He's like okay, what you want to do, but what we wanted to do computer science and everything was not available for my country and we didn't have parallel those days, so it's like, okay, you'll just need to go to a college and do what you can, then we step up from there into it. Yeah, yeah so that's when you join the that's how that's how it?

Speaker 2 2:22:32

happened? The diploma program? Yes, the diploma program for information systems. I was at the tbk school called kenya, kenya school of monetary studies, did that? I remember the bomb blast happened when I was up that way. Ah, yeah, that's 90s, 97, 98, 98, yes, did that finish that diploma told me, okay, now we can go. Two of my bros by that time were in the us it was like okay, you can join your brothers, it's up to you what you want to do, I'm like.

Speaker 2 2:23:01

No, let me try and get some work experience first and then we can see what to do so he plugged me into the census program. So I joined Kenya Bureau of Statistics and ran the census program for 1999. With that counting people, just understanding. Okay, that's how demographics work. How many poor people, how many people own a TV set, a radio? You know very bleak figures.

Speaker 3 2:23:23

Did they check a boat? No, that was ambitious. I don't check boats by then.

Speaker 2 2:23:30

Radio and TV was as far as they went. They didn't even check cell phones or anything. Anyway, it was a good exercise to open my mind to how government works.

Speaker 3 2:23:38

Because, from.

Speaker 2 2:23:39

That is how all the planning happens all the funding all the plans, everything, even the session or papers that you think about If if they actually read the data and decide to apply. No data having data is one thing.

Speaker 1 2:23:53

Yeah. Converting that into information and knowledge and picking insights is a different thing.

Speaker 2 2:23:57

A lot of those things used to just sit on shelves. Yeah, a lot of those things used to just sit on shelves. I mean, yeah, so we did the census. So yeah, UNDP is the one that funded. Okay, so who cares?

Speaker 1 2:24:05

Yeah.

Speaker 2 2:24:05

I remember the census we did was it for that year? When we were doing work in April we were being paid January salary. We were doing in May, we were being paid February salary. Because somebody clever decides to take the UNDP money as a lump sum Invest, it Puts it in a bank account. It happens even today, actually, yes. So he pays.

Speaker 1 2:24:26

Three months later he's making money off our salaries and it's a lot of money.

Speaker 2 2:24:30

And our money was not. I think we paid 500 bob a day or something. But if you multiply that, of course, by the number of people, it's a lot of money. So we're just making money, man. I'm like man, what is this? My dad is like don't worry.

Speaker 3 2:24:43

That's how life is. You're getting in, don't worry. Then one day I wake up, he tells me.

Speaker 2 2:24:47

By the way, I hear you know the Intercon, they are starting off with setting up a cyber cafe. I know you've done. It systems yes, the hotel Systems and all, and you know, you could just walk there and just ask. You know, intercon was behind parliament is it not?

Speaker 4 2:25:02

still there or closed it's still there.

Hotel Intercontinental Experience and Career Growth

Speaker 2 2:25:05

The sign is in the building, but there's nothing happening, because they used to frequent there as MPs. Yeah, like just go and check. You know, I heard rumour I was sitting in a table. There are some conversations, so I don't know anyone. I can't tell you who to go and see. Yeah, maybe there's something. I walked to the back. The CB Kenya Bureau of Statistics offices were at Nyai House.

Speaker 1 2:25:23

You walk Nyai.

Speaker 2 2:25:24

House, the back gate. You get to Intercon on the back side and I said, yeah, I'm here, I've come for the IT job. The guy watchman asked me what IT job? No, there's a job for cyber. Even him he doesn't know what I'm talking about. So he tells me I just go IT. I go to HR gear and see it. I went, it's just.

Speaker 3 2:25:41

Oh yeah, you're one of the guys who you know the way you get it to a space yeah, that maybe was not yours, but opportunity and aligned chance.

Speaker 2 2:25:48

Yes, I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'm the one. Yeah, oh, so it, you did yeah so tell me about cyber. How do cybers work? And there's this thing around just learning stuff that is outside of your zone try and own Try and get one or two things around.

Speaker 2 2:26:00

Again you're an avid reader, yes. And they say, for IQ you have to be a specialist to know everything about this one thing and to know something about everything else. That's something to change your life. So I go there. He asks me I'm like whatever I know must be more than what this guy knows.

Speaker 4 2:26:21

So I told him two, three stories like yeah, this guy knows. So I told him two, three stories like yeah, that sounds okay.

Speaker 2 2:26:24

So today is Thursday. Okay, he called some guy there. Take measurements for this guy. Why don't you have a Pima uniform? Like well, he hasn't even asked for a CV, he hasn't asked for anything Like yeah, okay, they Pima. They said okay, so can you come Monday 8 o'clock? It's our? Yeah, you come with whatever you'll be, with your clothes, we will give you uniform. I showed up on Monday. I was given a full uniform there and I entered.

Speaker 4 2:26:49

And you're on payroll everything Systems administrator.

Speaker 2 2:26:52

Hotel Intercontinental, cyber Cafe Clark. I'm the guy connecting and even back in the day, intercontinental was something. Yes, it was continental something. Yes, it was massive. It was mostly american actually. I'll even explain why. So I'm the guy now who is connecting guests in rooms.

Speaker 4 2:27:06

The wi-fi is not working. I'm the guy who is sorting them out, so you did.

Speaker 2 2:27:09

You start now learning on the job?

Speaker 4 2:27:10

yes, now the majority of the time I was there reading you

Speaker 2 2:27:13

know, when now I'm alone in the cyber. People have gone opening logging into sites. How do you set up?

Speaker 1 2:27:18

yeah, hey, on the free internet on the job land?

Speaker 2 2:27:20

yes, the free internet I On the job land. Yes, there's free internet. I'm the guy who's managing the cyber and I remember back in that's 98, 2000? That's 99, 2000. Yes, there was no much of cell phones no no, no, there weren't.

Speaker 2 2:27:33

There weren't. If you're lucky, maybe you had connected using cable some weird things which were just man and 5kb. Yes, I remember 15 minutes used to be 200 dollars yeah, it was very expensive, yeah yeah, one dollar. So I was like man, this guy doesn't make a lot of money, yeah, but anyway, the only other cafe I knew was hard rock, which was at barclays plaza at that time was a cyber of some sort and then now, uh, I think it was kenya where Africa Online had started some e-cybers around, but there wasn't much happening.

Speaker 2 2:28:06

I mean, you remember this? We don't have undersea cable at that time. So everything is going through telecoms, single-dition, long or not. I think it was like one. Was it a GB? Even it wasn't a GB.

Speaker 3 2:28:15

Because people used to receive like a KB.

Speaker 2 2:28:18

Yes, your phone has more capacity than what Kenya had for like 30 years. Your phone has maybe five times the capacity.

Speaker 4 2:28:26

That's things that you're consuming within.

Speaker 2 2:28:28

Seconds.

Speaker 3 2:28:28

Yes, it's madness, watch one video you have consumed.

Speaker 2 2:28:32

It's gone the data for one county, so went through that, joined, got into the system. Now he started visiting while I'm working.

Speaker 4 2:28:41

He'll come and just sit there.

Speaker 2 2:28:42

He's just telling me stories. Today the speaker said this whatever I did, I'm like, eh, okay, then you see it. And then when somebody comes, eh, ceo, so and so, and when I went in I never went with my name. I never went to say, oh, I'm so and so, because I knew it would bring some chaos. So I just went undercover, I joined and used my second name. People would come and they find the guy there and they're wondering what does that guy keep coming to do at the sidebar?

Speaker 2 2:29:05

No no, he's a guy from my village. He just comes to say hi, tells me how people are doing in the village.

Speaker 4 2:29:10

I don't understand my dad, Because it could change my fortunes. Man People would be like why is this guy working?

Speaker 2 2:29:17

Anything and I was scared about the impression. We and I was scared about the impression. Yeah, yeah, we went through that, learned, picked things on the job.

Speaker 1 2:29:24

I learned how.

Speaker 2 2:29:25

And you finished your diploma. Then by then I had finished my diploma. I was now trying to get into uni, proper uni. I was like okay. So in that period, my dad is like okay, it's up to you If you want to go to the US like your, or you can stay around. You decide what you want to do. I'm like man, I've started touching money, so I'm like let me do this for, like another year.

Speaker 3 2:29:45

Let's see how things are. I'll let you know.

Speaker 2 2:29:47

But they were so much fun. Because I'm living alone, I don't need to buy clothes because I have my uniform. When I come to work, I'm picked and dropped from the house as staff. I eat all my meals in the hotel because there's a staff cafeteria. They are free. So even you didn't have a girlfriend, nothing. No, I wasn't even dating at that time.

Speaker 3 2:30:05

Why would you need if everything is taken care of, what am I?

Speaker 2 2:30:09

I mean, I go to the office at 7 am, work until 3 because there used to be shifts. Sometimes the guy who's supposed to bail me out at 3 doesn't show up, or maybe he's been sent to a different because nobody knew the importance of internet.

Speaker 3 2:30:20

Sent to a different.

Speaker 2 2:30:21

I do two shifts. 7 am up to like 11 pm, so you have more money, more money. Then people leave there. They're like, ah, they don't even go home. I think there was that time was mostly Zanze and Dolce, those were the clubs. They go there till morning, the into the intercom, showers, dresses up to the reception and he's there for another 12 hours. I'm like man, that life.

Speaker 3 2:30:44

But we lived it.

Speaker 2 2:30:45

It was okay, it was just learning to survive. I didn't have a mattress. I mean I had a mattress. I remember when I moved out, I bought a mattress and that was it. My dad was like no, no, no, you need to buy your own things.

Speaker 3 2:30:56

There's nothing like a decaring. Your things are not.

Speaker 2 2:31:02

These are my things now you are an adult. Yeah, these are the things in my house are my things, so you plan yourself what a mattress put it on the ground. I have photos, obviously, for the mattress somewhere and I started now building from there but I didn't know how to buy.

Speaker 3 2:31:10

It started from the foundation. Yes, I didn't buy it because I didn't need to cook and I never hosted anyone, because hosting is a cost.

Speaker 2 2:31:17

So I was like, yes, yes, can we just operate in the hotel remotely?

Speaker 3 2:31:21

yeah, the days, when I days, when I'm so tired I don't want to go home.

Speaker 2 2:31:23

I just tell the duty manager he gets me a room I sleep, Wake up in the morning. It was a good life and we put in serious time. I mean built stuff there, made things happen Until, yeah, the rug was pulled from under our feet by 9-11. So Intercom American hotel. Majority majority, like 70%, of the guests were American. Yes, because that was the hotel, even when what is her name? The foreign secretary at that time was her, maybe Albright? She actually stayed at the Intercon that was the consulate.

Speaker 4 2:32:03

was that? Was there?

Speaker 2 2:32:03

yes, that was their hotel. Anybody who was coming in from the US used to come to the Intercon, because it's an American establishment and I feel it was one of the biggest hotels besides the Norfolk and Hilton. Yeah, it was A1. So, standards were set as per the Intercon for the US. So when 9-11 happened, occupancy moved from 95% to 12% within a day. Because, you know, the airspaces were shut so nobody was traveling and we didn't have any local tourists Nobody. We just used to deal with foreigners. We never had any local guys.

Speaker 3 2:32:32

The only local guys were MPs guys crossing from parliament to have a cup of tea.

Speaker 2 2:32:38

And then go back. And then guys used to come to Safari Bar, make some noise there Majority then British Airways and KLM used to stay there as well. That was their hotel for staff when they're in the country layovers, they would stay there. That was it. That was the business model. 9-11 happened. Everything went shh, and so, as per even computer systems, last in, first out, redundant. It's called V4 computer systems Fast in fast out.

Speaker 3 2:33:04

Redundant, yes, why we keep the?

Speaker 2 2:33:05

guys here, fast in, fast out. Why we keep the guys here? You can't sustain them. Yes, so it's easier to let go of the guys who are younger in the business because the payoff is less. These guys, some guys, I mean they are 30, so there's no way how they're going to release them to figure out that experience cannot just be yes you will pay heftily. So let's keep those ones, even if they can't do the cyber job. Let's keep those ones and get these other young guys to live.

Speaker 2 2:33:30

So left but I was like I have skills for talking and doing stuff and they had a membership club. I'm like, okay, let me do, let me sell for you guys your loyalty club, just to be called. Privilege Club.

Speaker 3 2:33:42

The intercom.

Speaker 2 2:33:43

So call big people, tell them hey, there's this, you can come, you can have brunch over the weekend. All that is for 10,000 shillings per year and you'll be having priority when you want to book hotels. You want to do all these things, made some sales. That was my first sales job, selling the hotel on the phone. So you started a nursing sales and actually these has played a key role in your, like the rest of your, career, and there's one thing that I even personally learned from that is that those, some of those small, small opportunities that we create and be passionate about, because, at the end of the day, where would you go? Where would you go and have a cyber job? Right?

Speaker 3 2:34:20

Yes.

Selling Insurance and Future Opportunities

Speaker 2 2:34:21

They come in handy over time in the shippers. And then you did that for how many years? That was like for three years, just two thousand one, two, three. And then in the third year I tried to sell this club to some guy. I called somebody from paul mitchell insurance company um uh, the ceo, because we used to shortlist based on you know influence and title yeah, because those are the guys who can afford 10,000 shillings just lying somewhere without any use.

Speaker 2 2:34:48

I called the guy up. I told him my story I'm very good at English and convincing people. He's like yeah okay, I'm not committing to anything. You come and see me. I went to see the guy. I narrated to him the story, told him how this thing will help him. He's asking me I just put money there and then what does it do? It doesn't do anything. But when you come, we use that as some loyalty things.

Speaker 1 2:35:11

How long have you done this thing? So I told him three years.

Speaker 2 2:35:13

He told me I have a real job for you. I have a real job for you. This is not a job. This thing you're doing, this is a joke. Are people buying this thing? I'm like yeah.

Speaker 4 2:35:24

Which people are these? I need to meet these guys, I think you can have a ready clientele.

Speaker 2 2:35:29

If the guys have bought that thing, this air thing, they can buy what I want to give you to sell. I'm like, what do you want me to do? I said, yeah, come and sell insurance.

Speaker 1 2:35:38

The hardest job on the planet earth.

Speaker 2 2:35:48

I the hardest job on the planet earth. I got insurance. Yeah, 2003, three years telling insurance knocking on people's doors, getting into you know receptions and everyone disappears. Mm-hmm, I was, I was powerful. Yeah, yeah, the way nobody was to live insurance guys. That's why I said it's the hardest job on the planet. If you have sold insurance successfully, you're going to be wealthy. You're just, you're just. I don't know. You're not utilizing your talents.

Speaker 2 2:36:12

There's that aspect which I'm now utilizing. But anyway, yes. So I got in there, he gave me the job. He told me yeah, first three months, I'll pay you some retainer. From the fourth month you own your own. Go and make the money and support yourself Like, ah, let's do this. Man so got in with my list of the guys that sold air to Called them up, said now, now there's something I can sell. You value, you know, but the last thing an African wants to hear when you die.

Speaker 3 2:36:43

Are you prophesying?

Speaker 2 2:36:44

When you die? Ah, the guy just shuts down. I realized I can't use that language for children. When you die, you know your family will laugh. He says I'm not working for my family, I'm working for me. I want to see something that is tangible today. So I changed tact, realized okay, there's other ways I can do this thing. Since I'm good at writing, let me look for a way to write a script.

Speaker 3 2:37:01

What.

Speaker 2 2:37:02

I will do is I look through my emails. Those days people used to forward things. You know the way. Now we are doing WhatsApp sending messages. People used to forward on email All sorts of things.

Speaker 4 2:37:10

Yahoo, yes, yahoo, and Gmail.

Speaker 2 2:37:12

So I go into my profile and look at it. I had like four email addresses just for the sake of collecting data. People forward things and I used to encourage you don't have any new forwards nowadays, because what was I doing? I was harnessing data. You know, those days we didn't have GDPR, so I'd go into my email, look for all the mails I've been sent for. Then I look for the addresses which end at africastalkingcom at eablcom.

Speaker 2 2:37:34

Of course those are staff at kcbcoke, I know. But if I see at Gmail I can't tell this fellow he's maybe done even work. But now the problem is when I go to like twarrior at africastalkingcom. Is it T-warrior, Is it warrior? Is it war? Then the other name is Iria. I can't tell. So how can I write to this guy? Dear is it, sir, or is it madam?

Speaker 2 2:38:07

because you don't know if it's a one name or two names and those days it's like all of them were those ones of P Angatia, t Waria it wasn't Paul or Tangatia. There were very few that were like that which you could say, ah, this is Paul. So I say who forwarded this email? I write the note of the person who forwarded the name and then I list all the people who have gotten from his forward it'll come in handy, because insurance is about social proofing now, if you call, somebody hey, my name is so, and so the first thing they always ask you first thing where did you get my number?

Speaker 4 2:38:37

true, true, yeah, who gave my?

Speaker 2 2:38:41

name yes, guy. So they start asking. So they would ask how did you get my email? I go back. Nani referred me, in fact, you know there's something we are discussing with him we are discussing with him. He thought it would be useful. By the way, I don't even know that fellow who has forwarded the email because this is five, six forwards down down there. Yes, I don't know who that is. Yes, but I know there is the credibility of that name. Yes, hey, it opened doors I realized yeah, am I struggling?

Speaker 2 2:39:05

going to bus stops and standing and people excuse me, you know my name is. I work from home. I know by nature I'm an introvert. It doesn't come out very clearly but I am. I'm a very conservative fellow. I just sometimes just want to keep my own peace. Now, to get me out, to start knocking on strangers doors and going to you know offices and just opening doors and you know, cold calling. That was a struggle. It was a struggle. I was like this is my shortcut. See, I know I can write.

Speaker 4 2:39:30

You're going to drive these messages give me yes from that writing.

Speaker 2 2:39:34

By the way, I got very many referrals. That's how I built my insurance business and I was able to thrive for like three years it was three years and something, and then I got into another challenge because I wrote to one of those guys like that he sent. He saw the email, he looked at her. He said I think we need to meet. Can you come to my office, whatever, whatever that guy was working at uunet at that time. That was uh.

Speaker 2 2:39:56

Now it is called mtn business so I go tells me, you wrote me another email they lucky.

Speaker 3 2:40:01

It was very interesting. What is this you're talking about?

Speaker 2 2:40:04

So I sat, I said, this is my chance. You know the times you sell until you forget that the customer has already bought.

Speaker 3 2:40:10

You're still selling.

Speaker 2 2:40:11

This is the fear that salespeople have. Because we talk so much, you forget even you miss out the cues. So, I spoke, spoke, spoke, spoke. This guy had already shut down from the third minute.

Speaker 3 2:40:20

He wasn't listening.

Speaker 2 2:40:22

He was just waiting for me to finish. Then he says ah, I like how you express yourself, how you explain things. Whatever this thing you're selling doesn't work in Africa. I want to give you a solution that you can go and sell. Yeah which is making a lot of sense now. It's making connecting people, systems, services. It is the future. So that you stop this hogwash thing that you're doing here for I don't know, and this is my livelihood.

Speaker 3 2:40:47

I'm just thinking in my head.

Speaker 2 2:40:48

Actually that is one of the reasons why I dropped insurance, because the perception, I think even till today, is so negative, because we never had a chance to really understand how insurance can be utilized to leverage and grow, especially Africa, I mean the US, europe, a lot of guys in the West. Insurance has done a lot for those economies, a lot.

Speaker 4 2:41:07

Africa man Penetration for life insurance.

Speaker 2 2:41:09

Anything that is managed by a corporation never works. I don't know what it is, I don't know if it is just our traditional understanding, and this is not a Kenyan thing. This is Africa. By the way, you have to understand this, and it's from the point of how things are. Even right now, you pay even NHIF or NSSF.

Speaker 1 2:41:35

How many people? You hear they depend on.

Speaker 2 2:41:37

NSSF after they retire. You get what I'm saying. So there's that perception that you know insurance, but of course what you're saying, you want to go, so there's that. There's that perception that you know insurance, but of course what you're saying is that maybe it's not well managed and there's no that trust and confidence that this actually can really work for you once. Maybe we get there, I'm sure it will not be a hard sale and I think we are getting there.

Speaker 2 2:41:56

It shouldn't be, especially now with technology, because of insure tech and all the things guys are doing you. You can buy insurance in a day. You can insure a car when you're beginning your journey in the morning. In the evening it's terminated, you've completed your journey. Small, small things like those will change, of course, the ones for cars it's just because it's low. I can tell you for a fact. People will not be taking that. And don't quote me that there are people who don't have insurance. They have insurance, but they don't have insurance.

Speaker 3 2:42:24

Yeah, I know If you don't get it. I know they are quite paid.

Speaker 2 2:42:28

Anyway. So the challenge was that. Yeah, it was on many levels, I think the biggest one we had, and I remember I once used that trick. We were very ferocious people and very, I mean, as you said, if you sell insurance in.

Speaker 3 2:42:39

Kenya or in.

Speaker 2 2:42:39

Africa you can sell anything, true, true. I got to the point where now I learned a trick from one of the guys that we had gone to do a pitch with. This guy had gone and he had gone to a carpenter. The carpenter had made for him a small coffin, complete with a glass viewing thing up here, but it's the size of a pen case, the one that holds a pen.

Speaker 4 2:43:04

Yeah, a very small one.

Speaker 2 2:43:05

Wooden he's put some varnish. Looks very neat. Just to fit in his pocket the inside coat. You used to carry a coffin on his coat. Yeah, I used to carry it.

Speaker 1 2:43:13

So we've gone, we've pitched.

Speaker 2 2:43:16

We've spoken until the mouth goes dry. This guy is not budging. And it was a high net worth individual, a guy who would pay upwards of 50,000 a month. Good money. I spoke and then realized this is not working, so I'm ready to give as in. We are wasting time here. This guy tells me no, no, no, okay, so I've understood. The guy had all the answers, all the pushbacks.

Speaker 4 2:43:39

So there is no way to get him.

Speaker 2 2:43:42

We tried and this is a guy I'm going with, a veteran of like 20 years. So, he has seen it all. Yeah, so I had never seen this coffin of it. That part I didn't know.

Speaker 2 2:43:51

So, I'm saying it's done. I mean, why are you wasting time? He pulls there. He says okay. So what I want to understand? Just tell me, you know people know that we know each other. You know you tell me the day when you're lying here he removes the thing, puts it on the table. When you're lying here in this thing, tell me, when I'm going to tell your wife why you died and you are a poor man. You never had any plans for children and all Tell me what I'll say. You guys had courage.

Speaker 2 2:44:20

He put the coffin on the table. You guys had courage. You guys had. He put the coffin on the table. You guys were not beaten up. No, we were never beaten up. No, there were places we were chased. You guys were lucky. I'm telling you even today, if you do, that to some guys, they will no, of course they will assault you, that guy. We were lucky. I think we had pushed to the edge until he said it's okay to get this. Rid of these guys let me just subscribe and he signed.

Speaker 2 2:44:44

But amazingly, those difficult ones, they're the ones who stay for life. That guy maintained that policy for 25 years until he died 25 years and they made good money. I think it was paid something like 40 million the family so it was a good thing, nice and it was good that we forced the guy to do that because, as you say, a lot of these guys carry facades.

Speaker 3 2:45:02

They are out here opulence, big cars and all, but in actual fact, when you slip, not get to the bone.

Speaker 2 2:45:07

There's nothing and it gets very, very traumatic for, like the children, having seen you know, we used to go live this lavish lifestyle. I mean, why should it be that somebody dies? They were living in lovington. Then the kids have to move to like and I'm not saying it's a bad place. But I mean then the kids have to move to Umoja. And I'm not saying Umoja is a bad place, but I mean how do those kids adjust to life?

Speaker 2 2:45:25

They were born in Lovington, but finally this house was not even in his name. So anyway, insurance helps with such cases, believe it or not, I like how you put that. Anyway, that case came out. So by the time I was going to sell to this girl of mine for UNET, she tells me yeah, no wonder you're not making sales.

Speaker 3 2:45:43

This insurance we don't buy.

Speaker 2 2:45:45

People make money, they invest, they use that money to support their families. This insurance nonsense, we don't buy.

Speaker 3 2:45:51

So, here come tomorrow and I'll explain to you what you can do.

Speaker 2 2:45:54

She said ah, it doesn't hurt, I'm in the learning game. In any case, I'm not salaried by anyone. This is a commission job I showed up showed me. Okay, now I want you to sell internet connectivity.

Speaker 1 2:46:04

Yeah, and I'll show you how it works you know when you connect to the internet the one, and now you have that experience of a cyber yes yes, I remember how I was doing my connections.

Father's Terminal Illness and Family Dynamics

Speaker 2 2:46:13

It's like things have progressed. Forget about those dialogues you're doing. Now. We're even higher speeds. Still the undersea cable hasn't landed, because this was 2006. So he shows me, tells me yeah, and in fact, what were you being paid? So I gave him the figure that I was being paid on the first month, which is like the highest figure I was ever paid there as in terms of salary. So they would pay you thirty thousand, and then month to twenty thousand and month three, ten thousand, month for you on your own. I went and said thirty thousand, but I never said it was thirty thousand, only only one month.

Speaker 4 2:46:41

I just said 30,000.

Speaker 3 2:46:46

He said ah, I'm going to pay you 45. So 45, what Every?

Speaker 2 2:46:48

month guaranteed. He said 45 per month. I'm like, wow, people can earn this money, okay. So I said, okay, fine, we can start.

Speaker 1 2:46:54

Where do I begin?

Speaker 2 2:46:55

Wait a minute, paul. So this issue of your dad saying, saying you can go to overseas and study.

Speaker 3 2:47:00

Oh, yes, that was done.

Speaker 2 2:47:03

Sorry, I haven't, I jumped the gun. So when 9-11 happens, I start selling this thing online. And then 2003 I start selling insurance. So we scheduled for me to join campus to go to New Jersey 2004 January. I was like, okay, plans everything done, the cities, whatever, everything. It's because my brothers were there, so yeah, it was a process yeah I'm like fine, so let me make some money on these calls and a few because I know this insurance is just for a year.

Speaker 2 2:47:34

Yeah, I'm not even going to do it for long. 2004, in january, out of nowhere, my dad gets sick. I think it was like in Jan, like 10th of Jan, and I had planned to fly like I think it was February, february or March, I can't remember. Jan, he gets very sick out of nowhere, somebody who's never been to hospital so we're like eh, what's wrong?

Speaker 2 2:47:54

and this is the problem with. They usually say, when you live in, like why you and I can't go and eat like in, what can I say? Maybe not being demeaning, maybe korogosho, because maybe the water they cook with is not on a certain level. The guys who are there are okay.

Speaker 2 2:48:14

They'll never be for sale, but if someone else comes, somebody else comes Because your immunity level is not on that level of that guy. So the moment you get exposed to that thing it will probably take you out. So he he's never been in hospital, never been. So there was never a time when you needed to ever check anything if a guy's unwell and anything apparently um, during his travels during uh campaigns 1981.

Speaker 2 2:48:38

Um he'll young by then of those, because he would go on a campaign for like two weeks because that constituency was massive. I told you One of those areas. There was a time when they were driving down some place and some villagers from the opposing camp rolled a boulder onto the road and they had these old Renaults, very tough ones, very old, crashed into that boulder. They were not injured at least you know.

Speaker 2 2:49:02

But they never used to do logs, internal things and all they just went check up a bit. The guy is like no, no, we have to get to the next rally. So he moved on after the checkups. They're like this guy is not too bad. In fact, the checkup was done in the evening at the hospital it was just basic how are you feeling, how are your bones?

Speaker 2 2:49:17

you know the doctor feels you don't know x-rays and things like those. Yeah, so it turns out that when he had that um accident and he went on to play football even for the mp parliament kenya parliament team uh, at the bottom of his spine there was a bit of a fragmentation that happened, so dropped into the spinal cord some, some bones fragmented at the bottom of the spine and these things over the years.

Speaker 2 2:49:42

You know, he'd once in a while complain of backache, whatever any of our politicians and men. We don't go to hospital, don't like checkups. Now suddenly is very unwell because he can't stand to eat. He's feeling pain in the back these I mean his joints even when the wind passes he's feeling pain on the skin like what's this? We started doing checkups. Now because of those checkups I wasn't able to, because now I was the one taking him around.

Speaker 3 2:50:05

Let's go to hospital, let's take care, let's do this.

Speaker 2 2:50:07

I wasn't able to fly out. I was like, once we are sorted with this thing, we'll know what happens. And I'll go February, March, April by the time we were realizing what he was suffering from spent so much money on hospitals. They are not diagnosing going to all the big hospitals. It was actually diagnosed by some hospital in Eldoret because he had been like I'm tired of this and he needs in Nairobi.

Speaker 2 2:50:27

I'm going home yeah so, like a friend of his, called me hey, prof man, you used to be my teacher in KU come let's check for you. They did for him those checkups and he found the guy had he'd contracted, developed leukemia, based on the fact that the bones when they fragmented, they went into the bloodstream and poisoned. So over time sitting there the blood was poisoned and it's now festered and created some case of leukemia.

Speaker 1 2:50:53

Yeah.

Speaker 2 2:50:54

So now, ah yeah, leukemia, okay. So what do we do? He's like ah, no me, no me, I've lived my life, I'm okay, let's just try and maintain this thing. We manage it. So the doctors didn't want to tell us, but it was like stage four.

Speaker 3 2:51:07

It was far gone, really far gone.

Speaker 2 2:51:09

But, because you know, he never used to do oils, he never used to eat fried stuff all his life. So a lot of it was not didn't manifest. Yeah, it was like the body was just fighting and doing things. It was like, you know, boiled maize, I don't know Nduma, I don't know black girl, you know all those things. Now, when he gets that sick, he goes back home, stays in the village. We try and manage staff buying him drugs and all. Even guys rally, mps, and I mean at that time he didn't make it into the 2002 parliament, so he's now an ex-MP. When MPs are rallying they're saying, yeah, we hear the guy is sick. Oh, we want to see what. What they were planning to actually lift him to the UK because in the UK they transfuse.

Speaker 3 2:51:48

You can. Actually they treat leukemia, I know they treat for kids.

Speaker 2 2:51:51

Is it the one that they remove the bone marrow and replace it. Yeah, bone marrow transplant process and there was no way this guy was going to spend any of his money. My kids, have how many years to live man. What am I? I've lived how many. What have I not done? I've served in all levels of government.

Speaker 3 2:52:10

I mean, what am I?

Speaker 2 2:52:10

lacking, so he was content to stay in the village there.

Speaker 3 2:52:14

These guys.

Speaker 2 2:52:15

They put money together, they tried to whisk him, sneak him out of the country. He's like but I'll go, but I'll come back in a coffin. So they're like okay, and you know, with terminal diseases, if the person themselves they don't have the will, they waste, waste of time. So he's like no, no, me, I'm okay. So he's just, you know, slowly deteriorating. So the challenge was it's a big crisis to everyone because they don't have a go-to person and him.

Speaker 3 2:52:42

He doesn't have a go-to person, yeah, so he's just dealing with everything by himself.

Speaker 2 2:52:46

Yes, the challenge of people who are go-to, and my mom, I think, used to tell me that thing don't be a go-to person for people who you cannot go to, yeah, that's a waste of your life because you'll be the one. Oh, he told us. And you know, people who take don't have limits, they just keep taking, taking, taking. Figure out how you can find some controls.

Speaker 2 2:53:05

So that when things are tight, you can also go and get some relief. He never had. He never had that kind of a system. He was always the one at the top of the tree. Even if he had built this whole social network such that now people who are dependent on him were not too many, but still he didn't have anyone he could be dependent on yes, yes.

Speaker 2 2:53:22

So he stayed in charge. Then one day, you know, my mom calls me from nowhere and says hey, are you in Nairobi? Come, where are your brothers? Call them. Your dad has been looking quite unwell the last few days so he has come. You know he has catheters, he has all sorts of things. Hair disappeared, but you can still hear His voice is strong. He's still talking. He's still, you know, active. Yeah, guys, yeah, you know, they're planning out life.

Speaker 2 2:53:51

So, what are your kids doing? What are you guys doing? Okay, this is what you need to do. He's have those things. She was basically telling us hey, come and say kwa heri. So we went, we saw the guy and then we came back to Nairobi Two months later. He passed on Like okay, I was like, but he had planned his life out.

Speaker 3 2:54:12

He had already seen he lived fully, yes, so he didn't have any regrets and all so it was meant to be.

Speaker 2 2:54:18

But then what happened? Is it curtailed my plan?

Speaker 3 2:54:21

To go and study.

Speaker 2 2:54:22

Yes, I didn't go, so I was like now, what am I going to do with school? Then at that time I had a sister. I have a younger sister, so she had just joined Catholic University that year. So there is a fee there is a fee yes. So, who is going to pay these fees? And he hadn't, you know, these things of just amassing.

Speaker 3 2:54:37

He never amassed those things Never.

Speaker 2 2:54:39

In fact, he died intestate. He didn't have a will. Even so, we're trying to process wills and things in 20, I think 10 years later. That's when my mom was getting all the estates, whatever letters of administration. So in that period you couldn't choose any resources. And then, because there's no money in the bank and all these things, it was just a pension that was yeah, you can't believe what it is right now. But anyway, 72,000. So the pension of 2000,. They don't put inflationary protection, oh yeah.

Speaker 3 2:55:10

So whatever pension, it was 6,000, 5,000 pension.

Speaker 2 2:55:12

that is what you'll be sent Till 19,. Whatever, they don't have any inflation, nothing up to you. So anyway, we got into the mode now to support my sister, because me I'm like me.

Speaker 3 2:55:23

where I've reached man I can hustle through this life and there's something coming in.

Speaker 2 2:55:27

My sister doesn't have, so let's figure out what we can do for her. So we try to now get her through campus, continue going. So because now the resources, amazingly, when I would be selling insurance? It is because I guess sometimes they say people's prayers are answered through other people, so somehow I always had deals there were always deals to settle her fees. I've sold this. I've sold this always, until the day when she graduated.

Speaker 4 2:55:51

When she graduated, the deals disappeared so I think, yeah, I think that is interesting.

Career Transitions and Entrepreneurial Advice

Speaker 2 2:55:57

God in his wisdom was answering her prayer through me and making sure that I had sufficient to support her. This is what I did. So now, when we finished, then I'm now shifting to this other job. I'm like I need to get my paperwork in place. I can't go on like this. So I looked for a college. I'm like all these things are so expensive. Then I have to leave the country and I've never had the ambition to really relocate. My, my bros were there. They did 3-4 jobs. By the time they settled and became proper at some point they had disappeared in the system, because when your papers, whatever, expire and you can't surface, you just live underground until when they sorted out that stuff and all.

Speaker 2 2:56:31

So I was like that doesn't sound like a very good life so I never had the ambition a lot of guys sent me applications.

Speaker 2 2:56:36

We had people who had left school. Many guys left and gone to the US. Hey, there's a chance, there's a process, you can do this. That the other. I would be half-hearted. I'd be like I'm feeling, I'm feeling, but I never, ever, never, ever went through with the process. I just, I think also my dad, passing on, left such a dump in my life. I was like why am I going that far? The guy, is just here. I think you get such an. You don't want to go far.

Speaker 3 2:56:59

Then my mom is here.

Speaker 2 2:57:00

We are still beating stories the survival how life was. Things were okay. So I was like I'll stick around. So then I looked for a college online. I got Washington University joined and that's when I did my business administration, international business administration yeah, online for like three years by the time I was, I had already joined UN by that time.

Speaker 2 2:57:25

Changing to mtn the likes of bitanga demo had come into power and we got our undersea cable and then from there, as you say, you know, did you join. That's when you joined safaricom. So now, if I come, push me from mtn business 2010 like hey, you know we hear you do this at the other camera. You can do for us a few things. And I joined safaricom. Yeah, uh, account manager, you know they moved on, started managing people at the time you know, then moved on, started managing people.

Speaker 2 2:57:43

By the time, you know, five years I think, I had moved up. Like every two years I kept moving, so it was a good time as well. In that period is when, also, I think, the prowess within the industry. Now you know. Yeah, I was just now showcasing a lot of things talents and all innovations. Change systems in Safaricom helped them to get better strategies around going to market revenue generation for the enterprise side, the guys who set up the enterprise business unit.

Speaker 2 2:58:08

So, yeah, oracle guys come and say hey, we hear you're doing this, that the other Somebody has left, so you were the one who set up Oracle in Kenya right, no. Oracle in Kenya had been set up by. There was a guy who was there before who also I had met in high school. He's the one who set it up, yeah, um, and he had really done a lot. He's the guy who actually made me move from safari because there was that connection from yes, from high school and also they had lost somebody.

Speaker 2 2:58:36

There's a guy who I don't know. I think it was fraud or something. Anyway, somebody left unceremoniously. The guy was in the the role. So then I moved into the role, so then I ran the role for like one year and then this guy who had pulled me in moved to another company, to become now a serious don on that side, but left me exposed, I'm like wow, because now I hadn't done, I needed to move to be country leader.

Speaker 2 2:59:01

He left when I was at one and a half years so they brought in somebody else and we never got along and she just I don't know. There was some insecurities around, you know you know, stuff I want her role. I was not interested. Yeah, I was happy in the role that I had. But anyway, long and short is, with all experience and all she created a restructuring, so it was global, but it was just targeting me, and another guy, two guys.

Speaker 2 2:59:27

Yeah, she had her own plans, but I said, anyway, what? What transpired from that I was not too disappointed is because from that experience, I then now went into consulting, now set up my own business and apprenticeship, so it wasn't very much. Uh, how would I put? It wasn't wasn't voluntary per se. Yeah, I was pushed into it. Circumstances that's 2017. Yeah, just come out of an election, we've had a rerun. Everybody's just looking like things are bad in this country. And then somebody tells you ah, by the way, you know, your job is surplus requirements. Like, okay, what do we do? It's not my dad's company, so yeah, move along.

Speaker 2 3:00:00

Yeah, let me come and remember what jack might say yeah, nine to five, five to nine. Do your thing, learn as much as you can, because one day you'll need those skills. Now you qualis and consolidate all those skills and the skill set into now consulting yeah then I go into consulting consulting across now different lines of business financial planning because of insurance. I'm doing also um career planning because of all these recruitment things that I've been doing in safaricom it was a very big segment of my role and then also doing sales management yeah in that period I go and consult for a company called avanti.

Speaker 2 3:00:33

This is a visa from the uk consult, give them a plan to do east africa, what they can do, grow the business and all yeah. After two, three months of back and forth trying to help them out, they're like this thing of yours, man, it's brilliant, but we are unable to execute. Please, can you come on board, help us to execute it. So I joined Avanti full time.

Speaker 2 3:00:53

I left the consulting for a bit. I was in Avanti for the next two years or so 2018 up to 2021. Then last year they got hit with COVID and all, and then the thing that you never hear a lot about they sold out the products. Basically, it's a satellite company, so it has capacity that is bought in a transponder in the sky. That is the transponder that is used to provide internet connectivity.

Speaker 2 3:01:19

When the cable doesn't work. Yeah, so some places people still use satellite, but it was mostly for remote regions and also backholing, like Safaricom. There are base stations like in Garisa, lodwa they use. Vsat. Yes, because the VSAT base station takes like two days to set up.

Speaker 1 3:01:36

Very quick, very cheap Maybe $5,000, $7,000.

Speaker 2 3:01:39

The typical pay station, normal one, takes about a month and costs about $750,000. It's a massive difference.

Speaker 3 3:01:49

But then this one. It's a lot of money.

Speaker 2 3:01:50

Yeah, but this doesn't carry too much capacity and in any case they put it in areas where the population is very little. It doesn't justify investing $750,000 to set up that. So we got good business in setting up those ones. Kenya, and also a lot for MTN. South Sudan, drc. Uganda yes, somali a lot until we ran out of capacity. So now what were we doing there? I was just sitting managing customers.

Speaker 3 3:02:18

People call I'm now managing complaints.

Speaker 4 3:02:19

I'm like this is not alive I think it's just something.

Speaker 2 3:02:24

Yeah, what, what am I doing here? So anyway, they gave us an option. You know handshake, you know guys can leave. We create a smaller business that just manages the customers. We have one, but because we can't grow any further I'm like yeah handshake. So I left last year in september and now move back into consulting. Now full swing into startups Building stuff, trying to figure out what guys are trying to achieve in the market that is in tech, yes, tech, mostly fintech, agritech.

Speaker 2 3:02:52

When I look at your experience, paul, it's quite amazing that you have come a long way Now. When you put the stories, your personal story and what you are doing right now, it becomes a full house in how someone can understand what you have been doing, the different career path that you have had, and it's quite outstanding, I would say, and we are honored to have you here today. I would like to ask your parting shot to our listeners, okay?

Speaker 4 3:03:32

I like that thought.

Building Business Success Through Understanding

Speaker 2 3:03:35

I love that thought. There are so many shots that's the problem, so I'm trying to, I think, confine it into just maybe one thing that I can say yeah, that will probably um cannot value uh to people. Yeah I think especially to entrepreneurs entrepreneurs yeah on the, on the, I think, the entrepreneur end. What I've always seen is as a big challenge is uh, everybody is interested in setting up something when we find people are struggling to scale is because we are always going out to create products and look for customers for products, Whereas we are actually supposed to create products for our customers not look

Speaker 2 3:04:20

for customers for our products. So provide solutions to our customers, Not look for customers for our products. So provide solutions to the customers. Yes, which means there's something that is existing, there's a gulf, there's a gap, there's a need, there's a pain. We're going to solve that pain. We're looking at who's our competitor, how many people are impacted by this pain? If I'm in the same pain, would I use this product that I'm setting up? How far or what more can I do with it in terms of getting out of my boundaries? If you figure that out, it resolves many problems around useless products that we have in the marketplace, Because people come in they say I saw something in San Francisco, I saw something in.

Speaker 2 3:04:54

Wherever they come, they create something. They say, okay, we are going to market. Ideally for the ones that are scalable and the quickest to actually return revenue are those products that are addressing a need that was identified before the product was even concepted. Because when I was in Safaricom, we came up with many products, we started looking for customers for those products. It is the hardest thing you'll ever do in sales.

Speaker 2 3:05:18

If we just went and discovered what are the products that customers require, the customers will come because, they already know what they need, and unless you're Steve Jobs, because that's the one guy that I know who created who said? The customer doesn't know what they need until they have he created the need. He influenced the pain himself. He went and told us the way these phones we have are of no use.

Speaker 3 3:05:41

They are not phones.

Speaker 2 3:05:41

We need a phone that can do computerization, can do photos, everything together like a computer. And we suddenly said, yeah, we have this pain we never had such a pain.

Speaker 2 3:05:50

There was no such pain. He created it and from there, apple has never looked back. Everybody else, of course. You will get one of those. There are a few outliers which you get. Yeah, people create something and they force it into the market and it works majority of the time, especially for us when we're trying to start up things before you really have the revenues to drive solutions. Try and see how you can address a pain that is existing, true, true, it will solve so many problems down the road, yeah, and now in there, you're now building things of your, uh, your intelligence. That thing of knowing one thing about so many things helps to build your capacity around being a reference or go-to person to help people lift them up. And then just understanding your surroundings, which people call it EQ, just knowing okay where I am and how can I help myself in the environment that I am, and this is not related, just limited to techies, it's actually just across the globe.

Speaker 2 3:06:39

We also do some career counseling. Additionally's to know there's a time when you'll have a lot of adversity. So there's that EQ you need to build.

Speaker 3 3:06:47

Is it emotional?

Speaker 2 3:06:48

quotient Emotional is the one where you just understand your surroundings, how people are around you, what they are doing and how you respond to those non-verbal cues. Somebody's in pain. Sell something to them.

Speaker 3 3:06:59

It doesn't make any sense.

Speaker 2 3:07:00

People haven't eaten the whole day. You're trying to talk about this utopia of we'll do this that day. The things we were talking about for Northeastern Are we trying to sell to them? We'll bring drones to. I don't know. Do what these guys are dying. They have not even had water for four days.

Speaker 1 3:07:14

A drone would save four families, so you see, so the mismatch, so it's just to understand.

Speaker 2 3:07:19

It's not just about understanding the people around you, it's also that environment. So then you apply accordingly to that environment to get the best both from the environment and from yourself. Adversity is these things we talk about. It doesn't mean our careers will always be a straight line. They'll never be. There'll be dips, there'll be places when somebody will wake up and tell you there are planes that have crashed into these two towers and your job is gone. What are you going to do? Are you going to repair the towers?

Speaker 3 3:07:42

no, yeah, you move on with life I mean you have to find a way or you'll be told okay, you sold all the capacity, or I don't like your face there are people like that.

Speaker 1 3:07:49

You know, that's just the way life is.

Speaker 2 3:07:51

I don't like your face. Please tomorrow don't.

Speaker 2 3:07:53

I don't want to see that face here, yeah, find a place where that face will be liked and take it there. So, and then there's also one from my mom, which is used to call it the love quotient, lq, which is very important to people who come from very disadvantaged environments. Because you've had so much pain, hatred, anger tied in, you've never really experienced love. Because love unlocks so many other things beyond all the other cues. Because you find somebody who's a boss, this LQ is sorted. That guy will treat people well, he will apply his intelligence properly. He'll have the right emotional balance. He'll also have the social. Social is where I'm stuck on the road. I you know, at 3 am I can make two calls. Maybe the first call won't be picked, the second one will be picked and somebody will show up.

Speaker 3 3:08:47

That is social if you don't have that you.

Speaker 2 3:08:48

It's time to work on it, because it means the day you'll be stranded, you know you're alone, yeah, and the time when you think your, your resources will do work for you. You have 10 farms, whatever land and everything. When you're sick, the hospital is not interested in the land they want cash to sort out bills. Yeah, you have to look for somebody to liquidate this land of yours.

Speaker 3 3:09:01

Many times.

Speaker 2 3:09:02

A lot of our wealthy people don't even have that so if you can cut across on all those, especially the LQ1. Those cues make sense across all industries, but they are very important for people who are trying to start up and do something, because you don't exist in a vacuum. You have to understand how everything fits in with this thing that you're trying to build, and how it?

Speaker 2 3:09:20

adds value. The moment you're there, transforming lives, changing, impacting more than one person, you have a chance of making it in life. If it's just for you that you're looking at and you're most interested in the revenues, you will sink because you your eye will be so much on that revenue you will forget how you even got there, which means that when you start tumbling down, you will not know what to hold on to because you don't know what you built going up yeah yeah, it's like a house that comes up in two days the other guy takes three months to build up the house because concrete needs to keep drying up.

Speaker 2 3:09:48

You came with your wood. You stuck the wood in the ground and you started hammering upstairs and going when the wind comes. That wood goes down in two days whereas the other guy who took three months, six months, his house still stands. So it's not always that because your colleague has done something overnight and it's working, you also want to do overnight. You give it time, trust the process, you'll probably get to a success level.

Speaker 3 3:10:07

And we are still going.

Speaker 2 3:10:08

We are not finished, gems after gems. Yeah, paul Angatia, thank you so much. This was amazing, this was great, and this is the kind of conversation that will change Africa as you know, it and it's one thing to say something and it's another thing to do, but, paul, I got you assayed and done it, and he's still here. We can learn a lot from him, but for today, I would like to thank you for joining us. This is Michael Kemadi for Impact Masters and Africa's Talking Podcast. Until next time, see you.