Impact Masters Podcast
We focus on the tech ecosystem by creating and disseminating knowledge. We tell authentic stories, acknowledging and preserving history, embracing civilization, and encouraging technology and innovation. In all this, we point out the impact and the actionable points. At Impact Masters we are disrupting the status quo: Body, Mind, and Spirit.
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Impact Masters Podcast
#34 - DR. GILBERT SAGIA
How essential are coding skills for future career success? Join us for an enlightening conversation with Dr. Gilbert Saggia, a leading light in Africa's tech landscape, as he unravels his personal and professional journey. From his early days programming on a Commodore 64 to becoming a pillar in the tech industry, Dr. Saggia offers rich insights into the role of curiosity, strategic planning, and goal setting in achieving remarkable milestones. Learn why he believes that inspiring others and effective capital deployment are far more crucial than academic grades for leadership.
Throughout the episode, Dr. Saggia takes us on a journey through his extensive career, recounting his experiences with tech giants like Siemens, Cisco, Oracle, and SAP. Discover how these roles have shaped his vision for propelling African businesses onto the global stage. We explore the broader tech ecosystem in Africa, the evolution of technology trends, and the transformative power of coding skills in the modern workforce. Dr. Saggia also shares his thoughts on the importance of digitizing African content to ensure representation and accessibility in the digital age.
But that's not all. Our conversation delves into the critical collaboration between the private sector and government for national development, drawing lessons from historical examples. Dr. Saggia emphasizes the need for collective governance and a level playing field to tackle issues like bribery, while also highlighting the impact of technology on government transparency. He passionately advocates for authentic African conversations to break recurring cycles of suffering and neglect. This episode is a treasure trove of wisdom, not just for tech enthusiasts but for anyone interested in leadership, innovation, and societal growth. Don't miss out on this inspiring dialogue with Dr. Gilbert Saggia!
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yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Welcome everyone. Once again, you're blessed. It's a beautiful day here at impacts masters podcasts and africa's talking podcasts, bringing you exclusive guests, the man himself, the doctor. He has done amazing things in this tech ecosystem, so we're continuing the tech ecosystem conversations, and today we have one and only Dr Gilbert Sagia. Dr Gilbert Sagia, how are you?
Speaker 2:I'm all right. Thank you, MK.
Speaker 1:It's good to have you today and you know your work precedes you. Before I knew about you, actually, I got to get into a conversation with Teddy Waria and he said is this person you need to talk to? And he said is this person you need to talk to? I was like, who is this person? He said number one and you'll get there. You are charged and I want to know about charge in full. So prepare that.
Speaker 1:And also I want to know what makes that journey to make, dr Gilbert Sagia, and the contribution you have immensely on the tech ecosystem up to where we are.
Speaker 1:You have worked with national corporations, you have worked with the big tech giants in the world and you're still actually putting in work to ensure that the tech moves from where we are to the next level. I see also you're dedicated to making sure that africa succeeds as an ecosystem, especially in tech. But before we get to that, maybe I'll just uh, read one of the things that was interesting in one of your portfolio here, uh, which you were calling objective. I've never seen someone who has an objective as as good as this. So, dr gilbert sagia, objective is having led various global multinationals. Focus is to direct this executive management and operational leadership experience towards developing africa, especially in value chain transformation using digital business, data-driven innovation, growth and by advising c-suits and boards on industry 4.0 innovation in emerging markets. Simply an impact change driver for Africa's transformation agenda, using globally acquired skills and experience in strategic planning, leadership and business management. A loaded objective that one Now, who is Dr Gilbert Sagi.
Speaker 1:Hi MK, thanks for having me.
Speaker 2:yeah, first of all, name or mk stands for michael kimadi michael kim. Yes, so should I call you kimadi.
Speaker 1:Actually I like introducing myself at the end of the conversation.
Speaker 2:Got it, yes michael, I'm not sure who wrote that, uh or whatever it is you? Read. But let's go for it. But before I get there, like I said, thank you so much, and also thank you to Teddy for having me, and I've always known how to exaggerate a few things. So, I'm not sure what he really exaggerated on this one, but I think maybe it's a lot.
Speaker 1:Oh, all these are lies.
Speaker 2:No, no, I wouldn't want to say teddy's lying but I'm just saying um.
Speaker 1:You know, he never lies right.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes but you know he's not to kind of salt it a little bit but, that's his nature right, and that's why he's so inspirational yeah and has done so much and continues to be quite a you know, a changing driver in Africa, yeah.
Speaker 2:So, like you've mentioned, life for me, the way I look at it, it's a journey towards the following. But before I get to that, it's more. You're born and you get into a stage. And when you get onto a stage, when you're born, everybody's club and you want onto a stage when you're born, everybody's clapping.
Speaker 2:And you've got to make sure that when you leave, everybody's still clapping, when you get born, everybody's very happy and when you exit, everybody's still happy. But during that time of getting onto the stage and leaving the stage of life, you've got to have impact. Yeah, in between, yeah, you're going to have impact.
Speaker 1:Yeah, in between the.
Speaker 2:Imagine if you're on a stage and you're in a play and nobody remembers you.
Speaker 1:Sad moment. Nobody remembers you.
Speaker 2:So maybe the player's got 20, 30 people on that stage and nobody can figure out who you are.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's a tragedy because it means it's like you didn't get it.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think that's a key principle. I've always looked at it. Life is a journey and I really make sure that you have impact on the stage where you are and you leave it better than you found it.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And when you exit, hopefully there's at least one person clapping Other than your parents.
Speaker 1:Or your siblings or your relatives.
Speaker 4:Right or your relatives.
Speaker 2:Hopefully there's somebody clapping other than your relatives, but that's the key principle of all this used. But, in that life is a journey and it means that, like any other journey, sometimes you don't know when you stop, you don't know when you accelerate, but you've got to embrace everything.
Speaker 1:For sure.
Speaker 2:Right, it might not be well defined, you know like you like it to be.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 2:People say you know, tell God your plans and he'll show you a few miracles. Right, yeah for sure A few. You go to embrace all of that. That that's journey.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So now talking about life. Where did your life begin?
Speaker 2:I went alone right when where was this?
Speaker 1:I want to know about that, because this is what they say about. Uh, most of the people actually, if not all right, that most of the decision and even the way you, you, you perceive life it actually formed in your highly stage in life. Either you know, consciously or subconsciously, and even the way you make decisions actually is influenced by the experiences that you pass through. Growing Good point. And if you ignore that part, sometimes most people get lost along the way by realizing that either they demean themselves to an extent that they feel like they don't have, much impact in life or they, you know, have overconfidence whereby they find themselves, you know, doing things that actually out of order and that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1:So for me, in this context, and and because what what we're doing here today is to try and shape the history of Africa as it is, because I'm sure there is a guy somewhere in the remotest part of this continent who can't figure out what tomorrow will look like, and if he has, dr Sagi, with all these accolades and achievements they started at this point, I don't know where you started. That's what I want to know. And I've talked to people who are privileged and they learned something from that and they impacted the world from that point of view. So they learned something from that and also they're able to like see where does that take them?
Speaker 2:all right. Um just one thing you mentioned yeah in terms of overconfidence. I don't think there's enough. There's anything like overconfidence. I think. If there's anything that africa or african people really kiss, I think, um, it's better to be overconfident, to be not to even have it yeah, right, yeah that's one thing that I do see. If you compare, um you know, folks in africa with those in the west, but even in East right. There's always this thing that Africans are not as comfortable in the element as the others are.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, you know, and the others are much more confident with half the knowledge right. You get an African with much more knowledge, much more experience but they don't have that confidence.
Speaker 4:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Sorry, I didn't intend to correct that, but I just picked on it, because it's something that I've always mentored younger people to really up their game when it comes to the confidence ladder. But take a couple of steps back several years ago, decades ago, so to speak. Same age right. And you know they say life begins for you as an individual and you're formed when you're five or seven years old.
Speaker 2:So what I remember mostly about my childhood is I think I was a bit entrepreneurial, right um and uh, I could start whatever businesses small, small like gold, even before I was 10 years old a couple of things right so um. I built my entrepreneurial spirit way, way back when I was still quite young. And that has always been at the back of my mind, or call it in the so to speak. Yeah, and you said something that maybe I don't you know I've achieved, but I don't think I've achieved even half of what I will call it.
Speaker 4:I will aim for or I'm looking for or.
Speaker 2:I'll be happy with.
Speaker 4:Right.
Speaker 2:But then then again, you never really achieve everything achieve for sure, yeah, yeah whatever that journey ends, yeah, great, but I don't think there's enough life to achieve what I would like to achieve right in terms of what impact. But that's the thing, right, you hand the button on to somebody else for the next 100 years. They continue the next the next.
Speaker 5:That's how humanity goes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so right then. I think, from a childhood perspective, I used to be those guys who were maybe too serious, and that, I think, has not left me up to now.
Speaker 1:So what do you mean by too serious?
Speaker 2:You know, I think I took life too seriously.
Speaker 5:Yeah, right.
Speaker 2:I look at you know folks we grew up with, I think they had fun. I didn't have that much fun, even when we went to university. I don't think I had that much fun and I think maybe you know in my resume Teddy just alluded back when we went to university.
Speaker 2:I don't think I had that much fun and I think maybe in my resume I would tell you just alluded back when we were chatting. Even through university, I was working already and therefore I had literally zero time to do what normal teenagers will do, or late teens will do when you're in university, right?
Speaker 2:um and it wasn't easy work right what you call people work. They kind of work. Someone will do eight to five yeah so all through when I was young until teenage and even after um, I think maybe I've always taken life very seriously I learned much later through a few mentors that I need to relax a little bit so that's that's always for me a work in progress in terms of smile a little bit more. Life is never that serious.
Speaker 1:Have a conversation. Have a conversation with MK, like I'm having right now. Those are not really really, gilbert to be quite honest, were you an introvert.
Speaker 2:I believe so, but it's something that you know. We can always learn to embrace life in its fullness but, I, think I was. If we're sitting in a crowd, I don't be that person that you point out, and say hey that's a noisy guy. That's this guy right, but of course, when it came to class, I was in an intro, right, right.
Speaker 1:I think I was in an intro when it came to that, but when it comes to social cycles.
Speaker 2:I was with a person that time.
Speaker 1:The guy who just stands in the corner and watch. Let me go back and just watch what's going on and see what, and this is interesting because I was like that until I joined Investor.
Speaker 1:So, it's opposite, I think, or maybe it's the same experience For me. I didn't find it really important to say anything or to share anything, even actually to contribute anything, because basically how things were, it was like I felt you know what? I just want to be an educated guy. My ticket in life is education, exactly In every definition. So I didn't find why should I play football, why should I go there and play games and all this stuff or contribute in anything.
Speaker 1:But I realized when I joined Inversity that you might be this brilliant, you have the ideas, but if you don't package them and present them, then they're as good as useless. So I started learning that as I go. I'm still learning by there until today. I don't know if that was experience for you and if there is this moment that you realize okay, I don't want to contribute, I just want to focus, maybe reading books. I don't want to maybe focus on chess. I hear you started programming really highly in your career. So what was that one thing that used to take your mind away from the normal social context?
Speaker 2:So I guess I was, was lucky, let me put it that way right I was lucky that I got into tech a little bit early. And I think, why do I say lucky? I just, you know, I didn't do anything special to learn into it, right, maybe just fell in front of me by luck.
Speaker 1:What do you mean that sounds, so I'll put it that way.
Speaker 2:Because there's nothing specific that I'll say that I particularly did. That's different from any other boy. We're not teenagers. Maybe what I went extra is that I was curious, right that I could do this and I decided I'm gonna self-teach myself to do this and then when in high school I'm like hmm, how about I figure out how to do homework? Uh, by writing programs.
Speaker 2:I do the homework right um, I guess it's just curiosity, but i'm'm talking taking it back from uh, I mean to their, their, their actual part, where a Commodore 64 sits in front of that is right, that is a lot I can't say. This is something I did.
Speaker 5:Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um so, but I just said I want to be curious about this. I'm gonna take it to the next level.
Speaker 5:We'll just play.
Speaker 2:Play games with it, but uh, can I write stuff that can you know reside on it so from those all languages. I think if I mention them right now, people will be like okay, what is it?
Speaker 1:cobalt, pascal, those visual basic, basic exactly no, even before visual was there.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay, that's exactly, yeah so started off with that right and I think that enabled me to have two personalities. The first personality is the education side and the second one is that I decided to build ali um their mindset of showing results, because when you write a program or you do something, you are you're trying to solve a problem and somebody else must appreciate that problem and you should understand it exactly so they appreciate that problem
Speaker 2:and they don't care how you wrote it. All they want to see is did you solve this problem, and that for me was quite useful, because count years later, when I landed with another friend of mine as well, I met him there as an intern at Siemens, I found a problem and I decided I'm going to write a program to solve this problem without me being asked. And I spent sleepless nights for almost a month. In writing. A program that solved that problem for the company and made them a few coins right without being asked.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because that mindset was already built earlier on that. Hey, you know um, you can show results and people can see the result yeah, you do, yeah you know you, you get involved in this kind of stuff. So, yeah, uh, that dual, um that dual, uh call it what. Focus became quite useful. And therefore, as much as we really fall on academics and everything else, great. But I cared a lot about what is the result, what's the impact at the end of the day.
Speaker 1:So you focus more on putting in work and less noise.
Speaker 2:Exactly. But let's be quite honest what do you really miss? What do you really miss? You know, what do you really miss?
Speaker 4:What did I really?
Speaker 2:miss. When it comes to the social side of it, you miss a lot, I'm not too sure about that, because you can always have that yeah, right, well, I don't think you could go to high school.
Speaker 1:Funkies, which you used to call funky when you are not in high school, used to call funky when you are not in high school. You couldn't write letters to girls in high school when you're not in high school, but to write a letter takes you 5-10 minutes.
Speaker 3:So are you going to dedicate 3-4 hours of your day every?
Speaker 1:single day to write a letter.
Speaker 2:I think you can still have that, but you focus on what can grow you as a person.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2:You can have the social part of it, but it can't be the overriding factor because, you only have a certain time, I think, in life to build the foundation true true. Beyond that, that foundation you can't be yeah, it's gone yeah, right, so I will more emphasize if anybody was to ask me I would say, focus more on building the foundation when the foundation needs to be built yeah, yeah you't build a foundation, or I want to build a strong foundation and you're already putting the roof.
Speaker 2:It's not going to work. Oh, now I want to build a six-story, but no, your foundation was for a single story. You'll never go far. You're only as strong as the foundation you put when you needed to put a foundation. I will say I didn't miss much. In that manner, you can see how many billionaires on the planet, right?
Speaker 4:now.
Speaker 2:And they still look like they have fun on their yachts. But if you went all the way back when they were building their Amazons and whatever it is they sat in a garage and they toiled like crazy. They're toiling like crazy, yeah, right. Yeah, they're toiling like crazy. Yeah, are they having fun?
Speaker 3:Most probably yes, I think you can have fun until you're 90, if you so wish right.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But your foundation can only be built in this bit of time.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And you have to focus, whatever it takes, yeah.
Speaker 1:It. So actually that makes a lot of sense and that's why it's very important to know, like, if, if these are focused, because, I don't know, maybe people are built differently, who knows? Um, when you're growing up, you want to know all these games, right, and it's it's called childhood, but there's this kid who feels like you know what? This is not so important for me. Maybe what is important is the books, is to understand math, is to understand all these subjects that I'm learning, and also to form that focus at early stage for you. What is that? Because there's some people their parent, guide them, tell them you know what. You can have all this and you know at a later stage, if you miss this, you can actually recreate it, and it's not something that you're missing. There's someone who actually doesn't have that moral compass of like focus on these is not important. What was that for you? Did you just decide it by yourself? Or there were some mentors or parents or guardians, who who did that for you?
Speaker 2:uh, it's a question, uh, and it's a tough question okay because you have to, and it's a tough question okay because you have to try to go all the way back. And again I know I'm going to repeat this word it could be luck, because all of you, or maybe your sibling or you, are in the same age, same age. Why is it that you or this that takes a different path? From everybody else. I don't think it's because you're more intelligent, or you're more this or you're more that.
Speaker 2:It's just how things add up for you and how you're living. Of course, it's nature right, it's your genes, who you are, or your DNA, but I still think that there's a little bit of luck in terms of how our circumstances conspire to put you in a certain spot yeah right and and therefore, uh, that just becomes your journey there's very little you can do with it. I mean, uh, okay, first of all, look at me, right?
Speaker 2:uh, I wouldn't be the biggest guy in the state, right, but I was for sure I can tell you, for free, I wasn't yeah so I mean, if I'm not gonna be there, then I need to have something else.
Speaker 1:That makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2:I've got to have something I'm going to sharpen, something else and how far do I take that sharpening is a whole different ballgame. But also the high school I went to as well was a very disciplined high school. I studied that way as well. So school does matter, especially early school, I think even up to today, my sporty nature.
Speaker 2:I love this half marathon that I do as regular as I can, at least twice or three times a month, and it's because our head teacher used to wake us up at five in the morning to go run.
Speaker 4:Yeah, right.
Speaker 2:So that just puts me in a certain sport that you know we had to do that. I mean, the school, of course, had so many other sporting things you had to do. You had to do hockey, you had to do rugby, you had to do running, of course as I just mentioned you had to do basketball. You know tennis, karate.
Speaker 2:So every quarter or every two quarters you're joining something else new so that's kind of like puts you on a certain level of discipline of how you look at yourself. But, moving on beyond that childhood part, there's just some fundamentals that stick with you that say this is the person I want to be. And I started earlier on, when I was a teenager, to start drawing what I call the 15, 20 year.
Speaker 2:I know, basically I think when I was a teenager to start drawing what I call the 15-20 year that I know, um, basically I think when I was about 12-13. Okay, so I knew what I wanted to be 15 years and every single year that 15 years starts counting again. Oh, okay, right. So by the time I'm 15, I know what I want to be. When I'm 30, uh-huh. When I'm 20, I know what I want to be when I'm 30.
Speaker 1:When I'm 20, I know what I want to be when I'm five. Like that, yeah, did you write it down. Do you have like some records? No, or it's just in your mind. It's not something I'm going to.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean that's not right. If I have to write that down, then there's something I see.
Speaker 1:I see.
Speaker 2:It's what I'm living on a day-to-day basis. I don't need to write that down.
Speaker 1:I'm like is this helping me go there or not? If it's not helping, I know Thank you. Right? So you're telling guys who write now you're going to the new year, who write new year resolutions. You know there's something.
Speaker 5:No but how can I have a?
Speaker 2:resolution Well, I need to write it.
Speaker 1:For sure it doesn't make sense.
Speaker 2:There's no point so, I know what I'm supposed to be doing next year. And I knew it 15 years ago.
Speaker 1:There's something I said about that in one of the engagement with the young guys. Maybe they'll hear this and they'll affirm to it Now doctor is saying it.
Speaker 2:No, it's, by the way. It's very interesting when you put it that way, when you actually plan ahead like that, it surprises you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because everything aligns to that.
Speaker 2:Exactly so I said I wanted to be when I was 20. Remember, I'm working at Siemens.
Speaker 1:At 20? Okay.
Speaker 2:Yes, I am.
Speaker 1:And I'm looking at this multinational thing and I said I'm going.
Speaker 2:So, and I'm looking at this, multinational thing, yeah, and I said I'm going to be an MD, ah, but not specifically semen. Which one. It is, Like I said, your journey can change but it's going to be a multinational. Okay, it's not going to be a company like Gilbert and Sons company. Okay. That's why multinational I really meant a proper multinational and I said I'm going to be MD, the GM or the leader of that kind of company by 35.
Speaker 4:And it happened before I was 35.
Speaker 2:Did I know which company it was when I was 20?
Speaker 4:No.
Speaker 2:But I was very, very clear that I'm looking at how these guys are leading this company when I'm 19, I'm 20, I'm 21. I'm seeing how they're leading this kind of companies. I'm like. I'm going to be an MD of such a company and. I'm going to have phenomenal growth for that company when I'll be in charge and it will be astronomical. And guess what it happened.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right Before I was 35. So, when you put those goals, you align everything Right was 35. So when you put those goals, you align everything right and you take no prisoners in that journey, right. So I knew, okay, great For me to be there, I need to have.
Speaker 1:What do you mean by you don't take any prisoners? And this actually brings me back to another fundamental question, because when you're at 20, I'm assuming either you're almost completing your high school or you have already completed. You're at 20, I'm assuming either you're almost completing your high school or you have already completed. You're joining a university, so already you know what you have, what it's going to bring to you, right? If you've got an A in KCSE, you know. Of course, at the end of the day maybe I'll be somewhere. And since you don't want to speak so much on that at this point, were you in high school or at 20? Or you just completed high?
Speaker 2:school. Let's say, we had just completed.
Speaker 1:So you knew your grades were okay. But in my opinion grades Don't matter what grade is. What is that grade? That is, which grade is that? I think?
Speaker 2:even an F is fine, I mean that's just somebody else telling you you got an F based on everybody else on a set piece. It doesn't crucify your life.
Speaker 1:From that point of view, it doesn't matter. But if I have an A, it matters a lot Because there's so much I can do with an A as opposed to someone who has an F. Take it this way. So I have an F here. One of the things that F says are our field and that's how our education system is defined, and I'm having this conversation on how our education judges everyone using the same, you know measure, Whereas you're not all.
Speaker 2:MK, can I just cut you short?
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 2:In any interview I've had right For all these interesting opportunities. Nobody has ever asked me for my KCSE score.
Speaker 5:For sure.
Speaker 2:Nobody, ever Nobody, asked me for my KCP score, so I got it there. I got this A, but nobody, sorry asked me about it. What they care is what I can do for that father Right. And what I've done in my last five years.
Speaker 1:That's very, very important.
Speaker 2:And where is my network that can help them grow?
Speaker 5:That's all.
Speaker 2:Nobody's ever asked me about. What is it? You've got your case. What are you doing with yourself? What have you done for the last five years? What knowledge do you have? How can you help our company move?
Speaker 1:from here to here.
Speaker 2:Nobody has ever asked me that one. That's what I'm saying. I think those report cards right um should not be a descent to anybody right. Whether you've got an a or you've got an f, it's immaterial. We just have to have a way of of arranging people. I think in society, right, that kind of gives us order and I think that order sorry is more for the working class. You want yeah, you want to create workers. Therefore, you need some order.
Speaker 2:You know you arrange workers you're gonna be an accountant, you're going to be this, you're going to be that. Then we can have a functioning society where we generate productivity, but from a leadership, I think, the only couple of qualities one needs to be able to know how to inspire people, regardless of whether you've got an F or not. People skills Inspiration know how to inspire people, regardless of whether you got an F or not people skills inspiration can you inspire people can you lead people by inspiration? Can you make people believe in themselves?
Speaker 2:right because someone with an A, with a first class honors, will not believe themselves, but you can make them believe in themselves, achieve wonders. Yes, yes, right second will not believe themselves?
Speaker 5:Yeah, but you can make them believe in themselves to achieve wonders.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, right yeah. Second, do I know how to deploy capital?
Speaker 4:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:If I'm given $100, I make that $100, $1,000, $20,000, $1,000,000. Yeah, or I'll take the $100 and put it in a bank and hope or finish it. Deploy capital correctly. That's the second skill. Other skill you need is the ability to build networks.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes.
Speaker 2:Is your network? Blah, blah blah.
Speaker 4:But I really do mean networks.
Speaker 2:And that's on our networks.
Speaker 1:Capitalize on those networks. That's do mean networks and that's how networks Capitalize on those networks.
Speaker 2:That's how networks work. What's your A network, what's your B network and what network do you need at what point? Third or fourth is how to acquire knowledge you don't have. How to acquire knowledge you don't have?
Speaker 5:That's the other skill that you need, and regardless how you acquire that knowledge.
Speaker 2:It doesn't matter. That's the other skill that you need and, regardless how you acquire that knowledge, it doesn't matter when it's digitally, online, by talking to people, mentors, it does not matter how you get your knowledge, understanding what knowledge you need and how to acquire it, and where you place that knowledge at what point in time.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Number five is public speaking. The ability to speak issues how you get it yeah, with a first-class owner yeah they have no idea, that doesn't get them to be the leader of the company right inspire the masses for the company and put it out there, yeah, but to buy the product, or or or. Yeah brings me to the last one selling sales, the ability to sell the best CEOs are the best salespeople to sell and it's all about selling yourself. It's a little bit self Selling. What can get other people, especially your?
Speaker 5:company going.
Speaker 2:Not selling yourself, to the detriment of your company, selling your people.
Speaker 1:Selling your team, selling your product.
Speaker 2:Selling the dream of your company.
Speaker 1:Whatever it is.
Speaker 2:Selling. Those are the skills that are most important. Dream of your company, whatever it is. Selling. Those I mean are the skills that are most important. That gets people to be that corner. Not where they. A you go that you know what they say. They see people lead the A folks.
Speaker 4:It's actually true. It's actually true.
Speaker 1:Because the A guys are like you know, I'm the real deal here, it's actually true.
Speaker 2:because the A guys are like you know, I'm the real deal here, it's actually true, but I'm not, by any chance, I'm not saying education this or that, I'm just saying from my own experience and from a lot of others from our mentor.
Speaker 1:He's A at the corner yeah, and I didn't get that. Let me just set something yes, but we can go on. Yes.
Speaker 2:Now I can hear you really well. You can hear me well. Yes, okay, got it.
Speaker 1:So you said you're going to Siemens or head of corporation at 35. At what age is this that you joined the corporation? The first?
Speaker 2:First time, I think I was in my early 20s.
Speaker 1:Early 20s. Like I said I was maybe 20, maybe 21.
Speaker 3:Yeah, first time I think I was in my early 20s early 20s, like I said I was maybe, yeah, maybe, 21.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love how you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're throwing around your age. No, no, no, I'm not throwing it around, but I just, I don't want it to become a factor where people start to use it to measure.
Speaker 5:Am I successful?
Speaker 2:not as successful and all of that, yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1:So even in this ecosystem you're saying, given the ball, you're dealt with, we need to find ways, more than education that can measure what we can achieve. We need to find what we are good at and really do it well, but apply and build skills around what we are good at and it's going to propel us to wherever we want to go, as long as we have a plan. So how did you get to join this multi-corporation, and which one was it?
Speaker 2:I mean, I started off with Siemens.
Speaker 1:Siemens right.
Speaker 2:I worked for quite a bit. I think I did my first stint as an expatriate when I was pretty young as well. That really opened my eyes, I think in 1998, when I first went to Belgium to work as an expatriate it was eye-opening.
Speaker 1:So when Africans go to work there, they are considered as expatriates.
Speaker 2:Yes, I was an expatriate.
Speaker 1:It wasn't too bad.
Speaker 2:You know. So that was my first time right, and it was interesting. How would I have been my interesting. It's the exposure of understanding work culture at a different level and you know, you can imagine. For me it was a perfect fit, because when people go to work, people actually work can imagine. For me it was a perfect fit. Because, when people go to work, people actually work, yeah, right.
Speaker 1:So that for me was this is what I've been looking for.
Speaker 2:This is an environment I'm supposed to be in. Eight to five guys' heads are down.
Speaker 5:They work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they deliver. Lunchtime is exactly one hour not our comsi, comsa, right.
Speaker 1:So I mean, for me it was, that was just you know that was really great, and were you coding at this point or?
Speaker 2:Like I said, I started doing that when I was still in high school. Yeah, yeah, still in high school. So basically, yeah, then the great thing with Siemens at that point is that it was such a monolith. It's a huge company, conglomerate right. And with several divisions, I think at that point probably maybe 11. And working for another one would be like almost you're working in another company. So it's like you have many companies in one, almost. Sometimes you don't even know the other one exists, right, if you're in Siemens Medical.
Speaker 2:If you're in Siemens Medical, if you're in Siemens Business Services, if you're in Siemens Career Network, it's almost like you don't know. The other one exists, which really was a great experience. And then, from then on, I left mid-2000s to work as a proper expatriate again. Yeah, out of country again. Interesting learnings.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then said no, no, let me come back.
Speaker 5:Right.
Speaker 2:And then I joined Cisco. Yeah, and then.
Speaker 1:Cisco East Africa. Yes, Cisco East Africa From.
Speaker 2:Cisco went to Oracle, from Oracle SAP, then after that I'd now done a nice good neat, 25 years in multinational. And remember what I said before. Yeah, I was planning that, okay.
Speaker 1:After 15 years, where will I be Exactly? So at the 25th mark for me, it's that you know you value your life nicely. 25, 25, 25, 25.
Speaker 2:So the next 25, the next 25? I weren't remember. Let me take a step back, sorry, the 25 blocks are for me at that point were made when I first let me call it joined what I call the formal job or formal market.
Speaker 5:Okay.
Speaker 2:Right, the other ones, you know, whatever small business I was running, that was not formal work.
Speaker 4:The consultations.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah Before, even when I was in high school or before high school, whatever small businesses I was running, that was not formal work.
Speaker 1:Right. Which businesses were these? Interesting stuff, were you selling the mandazis I sold sweets in the East.
Speaker 2:I had kids working for me.
Speaker 1:Did you rear rabbits and sell? Did you rear rabbits and sell?
Speaker 2:No, not rabbits, Because rabbits. The problem is, you can't scale it. So, I learned scaling businesses when I was 11.
Speaker 1:So there were guys who also became your employees at that point.
Speaker 2:Yes, thank you, but that's not formal work right, it's a side hustle. It was main hustle then so really moving beyond. That was when I said, okay, great. When I began the formal one. I said okay, great. When I began the formula and I said I'm counting my 25-year blocks, so my 25-year block. When it came to an end, it was already clear exactly what I needed to get done for the next 25 years.
Speaker 2:And that was take the learnings of the 25 years, especially global experience, exposure, understanding how to scale businesses, the networks that have built capital, everything else and now apply it into building businesses from the continent that can go global, whether it is mine or whether I invest a little bit in it, whichever way, but build those kind of companies. So for the next 25 years, starting again four years ago, that's not my focus. I have 21 remaining.
Speaker 1:Now, before we get to those four years and the next 21 years, there are a couple of things that I want to know, because you are part of the guys who set up Oracle in East Africa.
Speaker 2:Not really, I'm not going to set it up. I found it already set up. Oh, it was already there. Yes, yes.
Speaker 1:But you became the country manager, correct? What was that process like? Also, I want to know, like you're saying, there's this international experience that you got that actually you feel like if we apply it across Africa, we're going to build scalable businesses that actually serve the world. What are those kind of nuggets that you could share?
Speaker 2:So, again, it's about being very deliberate. So I was deliberate in terms of, at that 25th year mark, I should have literally learned everything I need to learn.
Speaker 1:So from year one you're like I want to know what is happening here. It was very specific.
Speaker 2:So let's start from Siemens. It was about what I call broad career based networks from a technology perspective. What that means is your mobile network or your fiber that connects continents or countries. Let's call it your career networks. So in Simmons I was in career networks primarily yeah, any other things I did, but primarily that's what I really need to get. Yeah, then from there you go to the next layer, which is now a little bit more intelligent than career network, so to speak, which is the enterprise side of the network, which is Cisco.
Speaker 2:Cisco dealt mainly, primarily many things it does on that, Then the next logical layer of that is information Right Databases, which is Oracle Right. So now understand how that information and this is industry level information. Yes, so understand how that information sits on top of this and uses that stock to generate wealth. Yeah, Then from there move on to say great, Now that's information. How do applications use this entire stock and build global companies and build and build and build? That's where SAP comes in.
Speaker 2:Now, all through that stack, for 7 years before I mean, let me call it this way, from 2014-2015 I've been working with startups, as well as a mentor of a couple of startups that are under Endeavor and the thing about this was to start to learn how startups work from an ecosystem on the continent, such that by the time I'm done with the 25 25th year right I've already built up that stack as well right. So, like I said, every part of it was highly, highly deliberate. Yeah, it wasn't by chance there's no luck here you have to be deliberate.
Speaker 2:You can't plan 25-50 years by luck what tomorrow might bring. God can say go left, go right but you have to be on that path.
Speaker 1:You know the path which it will be.
Speaker 2:It might not be very certain to that extent, because things change. Industries change, companies go up and down. You don't know what it's going to look like, but once you've tuned your mind into that level, you will always land what was actually your intention one or another the path you wanted, yeah.
Speaker 5:Amazing stuff.
Speaker 1:So now you're in that path of startup right now, as you speak. Yes, you can call it basically building the ecosystem, not just startup, but building a tech ecosystem across africa right now. What is this thing that you've seen in the last four, because I know our, our tech ecosystem, even in kenya, is not that old, it's like 15, 15 years old I, I, I, I beg to differ of course you started coding back in the 90s. And what?
Speaker 2:not but when I knew about this for me maybe it started in the way we understand it now, but even then we were small startups and all these side asses and 190 group, you know, setting up people. They were there.
Speaker 1:Africa online they were there so it is a bit old, but not that vibrant back then, because when I knew this actually is going to change the dynamics and I think this is all over the world, I think the tech also did not allow that at the moment. It's not more than 15 years ago, and even that's when most of the startup boom actually exploded. Things like Twitter became a household name, instagram, all these small social media apps that actually are taking over the world. So where do you think us? Because right now, actually, the cloud is happening, if you like it or not. That's why everyone is moving to subscription models and all these kind of, you know, tech adaptation, because I feel like we always followed the trend, not be where the trend is, because right now, the trend, the trend left the cloud side of things. It has been here 10 years. It's well developed, mature enough, if you ask me.
Speaker 1:The next trend is ai, machine learning. You know iot, that kind of stuff. That's what everyone is working on to make sure that it's stable enough. Even guys like lg, simon, samsung all these guys are putting in work to ensure that in the next 10 years or so, these will be working. Uh, you know uh, products. Tesla is way ahead in terms of that. So, in this tech ecosystem that you are building, how does that play a part?
Speaker 2:So, MK maybe I'm going to speak like an oldie Please, Even AI, for what we know as AI, it was there since the 1950s and 60s. It's just that computing speed has gone up so high that now the speed at which it happens is phenomenal. And therefore it looks highly intelligent, but it's nothing other than the old algorithms right now put on a faster chip, right Sorry?
Speaker 1:Which we are not building.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:But it's the same as cloud as well.
Speaker 2:Cloud has been there for quite a bit. It's just that now, because computing power, right, but the same as cloud as well. Cloud has been there for quite a bit, right, it doesn't now because you know computing power and processing power has changed dramatically more. The law has played its role and therefore it sounds phenomenal, but it has always been there yeah um startup ecosystem, even whether it's in kenya or I mean um.
Speaker 2:In my late teenage years I had a small startup for even for training uh folks, I had a training. In my late teenage years I had a small startup even for training Folks. I had a training school in 7th quarter. Was it online or physical?
Speaker 1:No no physical.
Speaker 2:I put computers in 7th quarter and guys will show up after work at 5.30 and I charge you a thousand shillings an hour.
Speaker 3:Right and they lined up all their cars over there Right and hey right, I mean it was a nice good business During the day.
Speaker 2:I was doing other stuff, but 5.30, I have to be there. These guys have all lined up to be trained right, because they're going to lose their jobs.
Speaker 5:Yeah. I'm a teenager. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, thousand shillings is not bad money those days, right, that's good money.
Speaker 4:Seven people show up over there. That's Every day for five days. Inflation, yeah.
Speaker 2:It wasn't too bad right? Was that a startup? Perfectly, another training school?
Speaker 1:yes, during the day I'm writing, all these other programs to solve all these issues. Did they scale it scaled? But, probably it could scale beyond me, right.
Speaker 2:Because there was something called going back to school.
Speaker 1:So once you go back to school, that's their holiday for the next three months, exactly Until the next.
Speaker 2:So I just think we've always been entrepreneurial.
Speaker 1:Yeah, kenyans, at least for that Even across Africa.
Speaker 2:We've always been. We've just lacked the infrastructure, I think, and the capital that could put behind these things. But, now we look oh geez, now we have startups coming up. No, it's just, capital is not being applied in a much more forceful direction at that point it was easier for me to set up or scale my sweet business than scale this other one right um, and then again, technology as well has become cheaper, right. So if I wanted to have let's say um, uh, I could only afford four, five computers right, yeah imagine if, uh, I could have afforded 50 then I
Speaker 1:was a class of 50 so even access to capital is was really hard because they were expensive.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they were pretty expensive. Right now they're cheap. Yeah right, they're cheaper compared how much was? One PC going for In current terms, you could call it that a PC will be going for, let's say, 150k. So right now, and that's a basic right. So, would you buy a basic computer for 150k right now? No, thank you. You could buy it for 20, 30. Second down is to go for about between 30 and 50.
Speaker 5:You'll get it for literally nothing.
Speaker 2:Your phone of 5,000 shillings or 10,000 shillings can do a lot more than those computers. The price was too high as well for you to be able to scale those kind of businesses. Those things have gone lower now and therefore you that's why we now say, oh, there are many startups. No, you just that we were starting up other businesses, right? Not the computing business.
Speaker 1:That's a new knowledge that you're sharing, because I think the perception is that right now there's a startup no, we were just starting up other stuff, I mean I mean I started my sweet business when I was 10 9, but that was a startup right
Speaker 4:yeah true or not true? Yeah, thank you right. Well, start up, yeah right did you have it in technology, running it?
Speaker 2:no, it's word of mouth everybody comes back in the evening. What did you sell? There was no erp, there was no crm, nothing.
Speaker 1:It's let me ask this controversial question about the suit business, now that you're here. How did you? Did someone disappear with your money at some point? No, no, but I had a very good friend he was twice as big as me.
Speaker 5:If I mention his name, he works for Safaricom right now.
Speaker 2:I don't want to mention his name, but if he ever hears this, he knows himself.
Speaker 1:Why do I feel like you ran this as a cartel business? Why do I feel like you ran this business as a cartel? Not really, I was a small boy. You need that gas. You need that gas.
Speaker 2:He was Mr Fix-It.
Speaker 1:So basically that's, it.
Speaker 2:What I mean is startups over there Right now because of their technology and also. We've come to understand now in Africa that technology is worth investing in. That's why it's picking up that way. Silicon Valley, right from the late 70s, early 80s, always knew we need to invest in technology. The venture capitalists everybody said you know what we can invest in this In Africa. That wasn't it.
Speaker 5:Even right now, very few people invest in this. Years later, it's still a challenge.
Speaker 2:It's just about knowing, or we've come to the realization that that can happen.
Speaker 1:It can build meaningful wealth for countries and for companies yeah, and for individuals as well, even as a globe actually does build a lot of well exactly yeah, but now back to your point, or your question regarding new age technologies, ai and all of that stuff you know.
Speaker 2:Let me tell you what. Just because of the prices and the globalization nature, what the internet has done. It means I can pick up an AI kit from someone in anywhere Let me not mention any continent. It has to be rate hours For nothing. I can buy AI code for $100 right now. And it will do fantastic stuff. It will self-learn a few things and we're good to go or I can even decide to for $100 right now. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it will do fantastic stuff, true, true, it will self-learn a few things and we're good to go. Or I can even decide to buy it as a subscription.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, I'm not going to invest, you know, $1 million, $5 million on it, $100,000. No, I'm putting $1,000. It doesn't work. Thank you, ceo. You get the internet and the ability that prices have come so low and other countries are now doing this as a service has made it so easy now that, even if you're building a company right now and you want AI, machine learning, all this internet of things, you can get it for a song right.
Speaker 5:For a song it means it's within reach to everybody. Yes, right To everybody.
Speaker 4:I mean.
Speaker 2:I remember when my son told me that he's learning how to write a computer game from YouTube.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that was six, seven years ago.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I'm like, yeah, you've got not even a teenager yet.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And he's self-teaching himself from YouTube. Yeah Right.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I said, okay, how did you get to this YouTube thing? I mean, I don't know. But you know, these kids are kids, right, they find a way to get onto this stuff, but at least he's using it for the right stuff, right, and he was self-teaching himself how to you know, do programming and build games by himself. Yeah, that's just what the internet has done and the reach of technology has done in terms of the prizes to everybody.
Speaker 1:It's not commodity. So what you're saying here is that anyone actually who wants to learn, the doors are open from, you know, kindergarten to I don't know which level.
Speaker 2:Let me tell you why. Yeah, irregardless of who you are or what profession you're looking for, in my opinion if you don't understand code you won't survive in the next 10, 15 years.
Speaker 1:Can you say that again please?
Speaker 5:No matter what profession you are doing or you're looking to do if you do not understand code you won't survive.
Speaker 2:You will not survive in the next 10 to 15 years. You'll be obsolete. Yes, you might find yourself in a job, but you'll never grow. You'll find mind yourself, you're lucky enough to have a job, but you'll never be that person that builds super normal wealth. You will not right. So coding has become like learning what we, me and my my small training school has become like learning what we me and my small training school right In the seventh quarter, which was teach people how to type.
Speaker 1:That's what they paid a dozen for. Yes, thank you. Imagine that.
Speaker 2:So that what it was 20 something years ago. Right, it was so important for you to know that this is a keyboard, this is a mouse these are your type, these are your writer letter. These are your printed the basics right yeah that basic for those guys to survive and maintain their managerial roles these are people that are twice my age, by the way yes for them to maintain their managerial roles in the companies needed those basics right, without being fired.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's exactly what is happening right now that if you don't know how to code, it's like those guys who didn't know that this is a keyboard you can type and print and therefore you got fired yeah. Right 10 years.
Speaker 1:And it doesn't mean they're not educated, it doesn't mean they're less of you know, you're not smart, they're not functional. They just refuse to adopt.
Speaker 2:You're not functional, you can't be functional Right now even if you're an architect, I mean you can throw ideas into your computer program and it will come up with a structure that will defeat your thinking of what you're taught in architectural school, Right?
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Completely, it will come out with a structure that you can't believe. That structure actually can stand on its own two feet. I mean foundation. Right yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:And how do you think? Because, also, I feel like you know, the reason why this structure that you throw to a computer comes really better than even what you can think is because there's so many people and minds that contribute into those models that it forms something smarter than anyone, one single person. So for me, I've always been like, yes, it's good that you're not lagging behind, you're not trying to catch up, but there are people who are contributing to this knowledge. How do you think, from your experience you know, working with these multinationals being there, you know on the ground, how do we now start even setting ourselves to contribute to this knowledge based that actually it can reflect who we are? Because, also, I feel like even the open source that we consume mostly doesn't. Recently, when we see, you know, engineers, developers contribute to this open source, but before we used to consume what Asia is thinking, Americans are thinking, South Americans are thinking, but we just consume. So how do we play the part and not just consume?
Speaker 2:I mean, look at, africa is talking right. I mean Kenyans and Africans have come up with great ideas and they've built companies of code and there's examples and examples of those that are happening. We just need more happening. But, already we have examples. As mentioned, africa is talking, and even in this space, of which is not exactly tech, as you see it, whether it's in education, the same thing on education.
Speaker 2:There are a lot of companies now that are putting education out there on digital platforms right YouTube has become literally a university right YouTube university right, I mean it's the way Google was, like a university. Youtube was one of the biggest search engines on the planet, if not the one, is like a university. You can literally learn anything on YouTube, including even how to cook.
Speaker 1:Our ladies are graduating from the YouTube university Even how to cook right Something as simple, as I don't know how to make lasagna right.
Speaker 2:And I want to impress madame right.
Speaker 1:It will not take me more than 10 minutes to know exactly how to do that and get it done.
Speaker 2:Same as even if it's indigenous foods. I don't know how to make it In 5-10 minutes. I know how to make it, so we just need to encourage more about our content finding itself on the digital platform. Right now, unfortunately, a lot of our content as Africa is not on digital.
Speaker 1:Or if it's there, it's put by other people by other people and also truncated to feed the narrative Exactly we need to encourage more of our content to be digital.
Speaker 2:You know, if you'd made a search unfortunately right for a lot of things in Africa you don't find it online. You make a search for that in the West or even the East.
Speaker 1:it's like this it's like this, does it mean the knowledge is missing?
Speaker 2:No, what's missing is that we are not putting it on digital enough. We need to encourage as much as possible to just digitize all of that stuff we need to. The other thing is, when it comes to books, my mom was a librarian. Maybe that also plays a bit of a role for the reading part.
Speaker 1:So I live a lot of my life in libraries? Yeah, I live a lot of my life in libraries, right?
Speaker 2:And I used to read. I was able, I was able to read books before. I I mean words before I could even know what the pronunciation really is Right, which could be very embarrassing. You can imagine holding a conversation I'm saying this word where nobody's understanding what I'm saying, but I know what it means.
Speaker 2:Right, but because I just used to read a lot when I was still young, but at that point books was things that existed on a shelf. Now, books, right, are now about. Can we digitize and make them all PDFs or whatever it is, or they are audio or video. So we just need a lot of our content that can get now moved from books, or you don't have to wait to write a book. You can just create a podcast and you're done. Otherwise before. Mk.
Speaker 2:I would have had to this conversation we're sharing for the next one hour. Yeah, write a book, a whole book, but because we can do a podcast, now it's available. Yeah, now how about making it searchable? Yes, that, oh, what did this person say? Now, let's make it searchable, let's put tags on it, let's put meta, whatever's on it. Oh, it can be searchable. We're good to go right can it exist on spotify? Why right can it exist on Spotify? Why not?
Speaker 4:can it?
Speaker 2:exist on Deezer or whatever all those other platforms. There you go. We just need to let a lot of African content or indigenous content be searchable by being digital, because it can be done very, very cheaply anybody with a $20 phone can do it can do it, and that's what we need to encourage.
Speaker 4:So also a $20 phone can do it.
Speaker 1:Right Can do it, can do it and that's what we need to encourage. Yeah, so also again on building the tech ecosystem of course resources are needed, but we see the people who have resources in Africa, most of them want to invest in brick and mortar, without forgetting that tech actually propels us to something different or in the next level, kind of even industry, that tech actually propels us to something different or, in the next level, kind of even industry that we want to build. But very few people believe that you can write code and it will create wealth, enormous wealth that you can, you know it will actually scale.
Speaker 1:Because if you have industry for you to scale industry, it takes a lot of capital to set up different places, to hire different people, but with the technology then that actually becomes a reality. And I'll give you an example. Since he's an African, though he's doing it in the US our friend Elon Musk. You see how he scaled Tesla to China. Within months he had set up, things were running, cars were produced and actually sorted the problem that he had in Nevada or someplace that he set up the plant. So how do we get there? Because now the young guys here, they are skilled, they have the right skills to do this, but the people with the good money to put in as capital, they don't believe in that. Like, honestly speaking, like here, you know, people believe in buying a few shambas here and there than you know investing in their sons and daughters to build solutions.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, maybe it had to take Elon Musk, go to an environment where it was okay, right, to do what he did and to build on the ideas he had.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know for him to become Elon.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, maybe if he remained, I don't know. I mean, I know there are big South African tech companies as well.
Speaker 5:Yeah, they're there, right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:But could he have gone to the scale of what he's gone to? I kind of beg to differ yeah I think environment had to play a big role that sure sure it took him being in the us in an ecosystem where people understand that it would be okay you see, in kenya, for example, in africa, if helen was here and he said that he can't he's living on pizza that he can't he's living on pizza that he can't pay rent.
Speaker 2:MK, you're going to look at this gentleman and say you're crazy. But this is someone who said you know what? I'm going to take all the money I have and put it into these ventures. And it's okay if I don't know where rent is coming from, and it's okay if I'm going to live on pizza the whole week and Coke.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right. And Coca-Cola, sorry, right. You know, and yeah, exactly Right, that it's okay here. You'll think he's crazy, yes, right. And you will look down on him and say this guy is doing poorly, this guy is doing poorly, right. So our societies as well need to come of age to understand what really is living and to be aspirational about something really great. Yes, yes. So environment, I think, plays a big role, but then it's also very risky. Still here, right? Why is it risky? Our own financial institutions don't understand that model In the US. They've done it for 30, 40 years. They understand it very well.
Speaker 2:So how do you get money to get this thing moving?
Speaker 5:Right yeah.
Speaker 2:Before you come to family, friends and friends right, you've got to have infrastructure that is set up to do it properly. Yes, before you say okay, I'm going to rely on family, friends and myself to invest in all that, rely on family friends and myself to invest in all that. But the infrastructure we have from our financial institutions have not come to understand that level of risk that I can say I will invest in 10 and it's okay if 8 don't make it, but these 2 that might make it might cover for all the other 8.
Speaker 2:We don't believe in that yet from our financial institutions yet. So that is a no-go. So society, a challenge. Our financial infrastructure needs a little bit of, you know, moving, thinking ahead as well. Now you come to an individual with your own capital. Now what are you going to do? Because you're even worse, thank you, so I think that's where the problem is. Yes, yes.
Speaker 1:And I think there's something you mentioned there passing, and I think this is something I consider very important, because any individual is made of three things body, mind and soul. How much did that contribute to what you know and how much can that contribute to our future as Africans, because we are spiritual beings in one way, or?
Speaker 5:the other.
Speaker 1:And we have a body to keep healthy and our mind has to be nourished time to time. So what is your perspective to Africans who want to build the next generation of wealth?
Speaker 2:In my opinion, in my opinion maybe it helps that I was a doctor once you're no longer a doctor like a teacher. You're always a teacher. Maybe it helps doctor of philosophy medical so it does help in terms of understanding what is? This thing that we move around, when called flesh and bones, right, um, it puts a very different perspective, um you know, in terms of how feeble life really is right it's very, very feeble, yeah, very fleety. Um, and feeble, yeah, very fleety, and what I see you as MK, this is a container.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:In my opinion. That's the way I look at it.
Speaker 4:True, true.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 5:It is not you, yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, it's not you, it's just a container that has to carry right your soul around yes yes.
Speaker 1:That's it.
Speaker 2:There's nothing else? Yeah Right, it has to carry it around and therefore you have to feed it like a car. Right, make sure it can run. Right, you can wake up, it can go, it can move it can move around. It's nothing other than that's physical self or the mental, whatever is how you compute everything else to make things happen for your soul yeah just computing power. Yeah, you're mental Right, so that my IT aspect comes in into that right, that my brain is just a computing. It's nothing other than a CPU.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Pretty much Right. And how do I make sure this CPU is always what it needs to be so he can direct? Two things? Number one keep the physical on what it needs to do, right, and make sure that it's meeting the aspirationals of the soul. I mean, when you separate those three like that, life becomes very simple. Right, it becomes like no, you're Elon Musk.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Wait a minute. What do I need? A five, $10 million house.
Speaker 2:For what do I need it for?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I'm just just where is it going? Where is it?
Speaker 2:does my physical self need that it doesn't all right, my mental, his mental capability will say not useful his cpu computers are not useful.
Speaker 2:I'd rather stay in a container, sell all those houses, like he did sell the last couple of years literally almost no house now he's got stays in friends houses when he goes to california, for example, and he's the world's one of the world's richest people. That a whole different level of mental compute, yeah, but which is meeting his aspirational for his soul right in terms of what does his soul want to achieve for humankind? That is what now really matters. Now I think, as Africa, if we look at things that way, there are things that we will not be doing. They will be accumulating wealth in crazy fashion that contributes nothing to humanity Completely.
Speaker 1:It takes away from the humanity.
Speaker 2:We are one of the worst continents when it comes to giving back. Once you're wealthy, people give back before they get money Real money, right Because I think they're trying to pay whatever to God, so God can. But after that you don't Very much. You don't hear much about what foundations do.
Speaker 1:You don't hear much.
Speaker 2:We are one of the worst.
Speaker 2:There's a few folks who are doing the right stuff. But let's look at it at scale of what people do. Right now, kenya is having one of the worst droughts ever. How many wealthy people in Kenya that will contribute even an amount that actually they should be paying as tax to KRA, but they're not doing it. They're not doing it. They're not doing it. They're still holding it. They will literally write it off. They will write $1 million, $10 million, like it's tax money. Carry will just get less of it. It's not Come from them, but their mentality is not there. So I think at some point we need to get to the point of understanding these three trinities, if you call it that we need to get to the point of understanding these three trinities, if you call it that right.
Speaker 5:In terms of what really?
Speaker 2:matters, right, and what our brains is telling the rest to do right that we can really meet the aspirations of our soul.
Speaker 1:True, true. I mean you have really broken it down very nicely and you know, in any ecosystem without policy it's really hard to get things done because of course they call him in US. They call him in US I remember that name the guy who collects the tax and makes sure the IRS not the name of the organization, but there's a nickname that they use that I've just forgotten right now.
Speaker 1:But nevertheless, you need that guidance in terms of governmental compliance and all that. And I see you have influenced a couple of policies here, from the Kenya Bureau of Statistics, kenya Bureau of Standards, kenya Primary Act 2016,. This Kenya EL policy Ministry of Standards, kenya Bribery Act 2016,. There's Kenya EL Policy Ministry of Health between 2008 and 2010.
Speaker 1:And most of these things actually looks like even the government of the day, if my mind serves me well, it was more open to change, and right now, where we are, I don't feel like even the new government is open to change. You can correct me if I'm wrong. They are open to trying to fix things Because there are so many things broken. How can we because now, in the next 21 years, we'll count on that either way how can we play a part in ensuring that even the policies that are made is not just to fix but also to contribute into this tech ecosystem? Because either way, if we fix the tech ecosystem, if we fix our industries, if we fix the revenue, if we fix people's businesses, then everything else we don't need to fix anything. Everything else will fall into place.
Speaker 2:I don't know about governments.
Speaker 4:Sorry.
Speaker 2:But sometimes.
Speaker 1:How are you able to influence all these policies?
Speaker 4:I'm coming to the RMK right, so sometimes we look at government as that thing but, government is us For sure.
Speaker 2:Government is you and me right. These are our friends. So, I can't start telling you guys no, they are our guys.
Speaker 4:You can have a conversation.
Speaker 1:It's our friends.
Speaker 4:We have guys, we can have a conversation. It's our friends we have discussed.
Speaker 2:We said this is what we need to do I think this bribery thing has gone too far. Let's have some playing field. That's also the private sector Needs to do what Be governed. Bribery and family is a give and a take.
Speaker 5:Isn't it?
Speaker 2:So it was just let's level the playing field. You can't take the guy in public service to court, but the guy in private. You left him hanging.
Speaker 4:So let's level the playing field right.
Speaker 2:Because, then you solve that menace and many others like that, because these are friends. We sit down in a meeting and discuss in our boardroom and and return on their results. So there are human beings like us, but I would say, nation states. Don't look at five years, 10 years, it's hundreds of years and I think that's what we need to internalize that it's not what you see tomorrow. It's what are the steps that put into play in the next 20, 50, 100, 200 years where we need to be, where we need to be.
Speaker 2:Egyptian dynasty lasted thousands of years. It didn't start on the fifth year and they said we must build this pyramid, and if we didn't build it, all of you go home. I don't think so. Rome as an empire didn't begin by. Oh, it's this five years. And if we didn't do this, since you're going? No, these things take a lot of time you know, because humanity has been around for quite a bit and it will continue to be there for quite a bit, yes, so I think we need to look at that context.
Speaker 2:So the question is, what are we doing? That is always inching us in the right direction. If you look at even what the president has mentioned the last one month, I believe, the importance of technology I think it's amazing. Look at the current cabinet and what they've been saying. I know it looks like a lot of talk but it's talking the right direction. It's talking the right direction.
Speaker 1:It influences that mindset, but it's talking the right direction. It's talking the right direction. That's what influences that mindset.
Speaker 2:But it's talking the right direction, that we can do this with the textile industry. Right and saying practically, we'll do this, this, this, this. It's in the right direction. What we need to do is to now play our part, together with our colleagues, because they're our colleagues. They're not some aliens who fell there. They're now in government colleagues because they are our colleagues. They are not some aliens who fell there that are now in government.
Speaker 2:They are our colleagues, we play our role to support that and move it. We can't be throwing stones across that fence. It's the same football pitch. Some guys are spectators, some guys are playing. Next time it will be us guys in the playing field, then they're back to spectators. You have to play your role, everybody has to play their role, and together, both private and public. If you take a couple of hundreds of years back, maybe 1840s, 50s to the men who built sorry, mostly that's how the book was written who built America?
Speaker 2:It was private folks, industrialists coming together and saying with government this is what we're going to do.
Speaker 1:Also, they bailed the government out at some point.
Speaker 2:Yes, they bailed the government out. They did it. They didn't sit and say you government? And they kept on throwing stones. They said, no, we are industrialists. Carnegie, you hold steel, you, morgan, you hold finance, you hold this. Everybody held their part and they held it without taking prisoners, like I said, right, without taking prisoners on it. They held it Right and they delivered the America as we know it today.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 2:If you take steps back. Even then, america was in such a worse off position than Europe, very much worse off. They had just come from civil war. America was in such a worse off position than Europe, very much worse off. They had just come from civil war. They had hunger issues like you won't believe. Yeah, right, yeah, it took them less than 20, actually 5 to 10 years and the UK could not believe where these guys came from.
Speaker 2:On almost every aspect, yeah, right, but it didn't come out of these guys throwing stones. Yeah, it came out of these guys saying eh me, in private, this is my role.
Speaker 1:We are committed Right.
Speaker 2:You, government, this is your role. But together we are on this journey and we we need to move. We move, yeah Right. And they moved America where it is right now as a superpower. If you told them in 1840 there'll be a superpower, they'll look really like you, they'll just come from putting all these states together. There's still some wars down in the south or wherever it is. Guys are still dying of hunger and places you can't believe they can't amount any serious war. Like you know, britain or France or Italy or Spain could do the Britain or France or Italy or Spain could do. They literally almost know very few inventions that could scale the planet. So I think if you look at the Kenyan government the same way, or African government the same way, and say thank you very much, you've got this policy kind of, you have an idea, right, minister for trade, you have an idea Perfect Now this is my role, right, and I'll take no prisoners in achieving that right and execute your side.
Speaker 1:I execute my side, true, true, then things get done. So the name that I was looking for is uncle sam oh, yes, yes, yes, he found it yeah, so right, uh, and, and, and, even talking about the policy, I think, do you think we're overtaxing young guys or young companies for them to even drive, or?
Speaker 2:in my opinion, that's a chicken and egg situation. Right because you need, as any nation. I mean tax is not new. Let's not look at tax as something that is oh goodness. Oh my God, what do you do? Tax is a way that you form a society that can function.
Speaker 4:We must have roads, we must have schools.
Speaker 2:So it's how you form a society. Society has got rules. Then we have how we administer the rules. So we have a code of how we live as a society administer the rules so that we have a code of how we live as a society, then we need to finance it to make sure that it works. Yes, because it can't work without being financed. Yes, right, yes. And then there's some things that is just best done at scale. You, each of you, can't build a road for yourself to your village.
Speaker 2:Yes, right you'd rather just say I'll contribute a thousand, bob, and all of us, 10 million of us, do the same and now we have a road. Yeah, Right, so the things that are best done collectively right as a nation. So tax is not new. I think the challenge for us is is a mentality issue, but also there's a technology issue right or access issue.
Speaker 2:Let me call it access, yes, mentality issue. We need to move also from this thing of I don't want to give Right, I don't want to give, I just want to take. I'm a taker, but I don't want to give Right. So we kind of have to switch our minds to, it's okay to give. So we kind of have to switch our minds to you know it's okay to give.
Speaker 1:Even for you to take, you have to take from someone Like I said, it doesn't matter how much money you have, how low you have.
Speaker 2:We gear ourselves more towards taking than giving. Even if giving is 10 shillings.
Speaker 1:I still don't want to give that 10 shillings. So the conversation should be like how much should we tax our startup as opposed to like should we give them a tax break?
Speaker 2:But what really is a tax break, so to speak? Right, if I said you're a startup and maybe I find a way that aligns with your revenue model so that I'm not running you out of town but you're contributing your bit? Right, Because if you don't build, sorry, and this is also you know, when I'm sitting in boards or a mentor, you know startups. There's something If you don't build some cost structures earlier on, it's very difficult two, three years later to start introducing them, yes, yes.
Speaker 5:In your business model.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, if you didn't build a way that says I will be contributing five to 10% into R&D or whatever it is, then you can't wake up in the fifth year and start doing it, yeah.
Speaker 2:So there's no way you can say for the next three years you pay zero tax and somehow you're going to find a way for your business model on the third and a half year, that you're okay to pay tax. I think if it's even if I'm paying one shilling, right, I think even if I'm paying one shilling 0.001% from day one, let me start doing it, but in a way that it doesn't do what Drive me out of business, it doesn't run me out of town. So you don't say, okay, fine, maybe, maybe I don't pay the 30% of top line if I really have nothing.
Speaker 1:But guess what?
Speaker 2:Maybe I pay 1%, maybe I pay something. So I've already built it in and I would structure my model that as I grow, this thing is also growing, because now I'm building that mentality in my business to giving, because three, five years down the line, yeah, if you didn't build that into your structure, yeah, those startups will be the first ones to go to tax heavens because they have not built that mentality. And then as a nation, again we again don't have enough people being taxed and then you start taxing the few.
Speaker 2:I think everybody can pay something. The question is, how do you make sure it doesn't run you out of town and just build it into the business model. Even if you're a Jua Kali person.
Speaker 4:I'm a Jua Kali.
Speaker 2:I am paying. Whatever it is I pay. If I make a boarding school suitcases, I'm selling it for 250. Out of the 250, 10 shillings is going to it, or 5 shillings. The day I am now making 100,000 of them. It's just 5 shillings is going to 5 shillings the day. I am now making 100,000 of them it's just 5 shillings times 100,000.
Speaker 1:So they scale also in that, yeah they scale.
Speaker 2:But at least the government is taking that 5 shillings and making sure that they build certain infrastructure that can enable me to scale, because maybe I need good roads. Maybe I need good banks that can give me loans. Maybe I need this, maybe so that I can reach that hundred thousand units, but if I never do, all those things.
Speaker 2:the government never have that kind of cash to build for me that super highway infrastructure from our funding, from access to good materials, from somebody else saying, okay, I think I can set up a steel factory for you guys, whatever it it is, so that I can reach my 100,000 units. So you'll never reach it and actually the way you're putting it.
Speaker 1:There are two things that are coming out of this. One is that I feel like there's not enough education for even the businesses on how tax would actually contribute to their growth or to create that environment they're looking at. Number two the reality on the ground is that we build everything on loans, which, again, they're not well spent, to be honest. To be fair to everyone, maybe we have 100% of the loan. Maybe 50% goes to specific people and other development. Even that 50% is mismanaged to an extent that what we get at the end, if we are not careful, is not really quality. It's not worth the money that was invested. So in either way and I don't want to put you on the spot maybe you can bring your multinational knowledge in managing resources and ensuring that there's development, and visible kind of development that people could actually be glad to pay even 50% of their earning to tax because they can see it like other people do out there. How do we hold people accountable to an extent that we're able to pay tax gladly?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's where technology comes in, right. And that's what I meant by the access part. I think I mentioned something about access. Just pure good old access is something that can be improved markedly with technology, Not just access to capital because, right now you can put your pitch and you can raise funds. Whether it's on GoFundMe or whatever it is, someone can send you money without ever seeing that person.
Speaker 2:20 years ago that was unheard of, I can tell you for free, unheard of Even someone that can send you money without ever seeing that person 20 years ago that was unheard of, I can tell you for free.
Speaker 1:Unheard of Even there was no mechanism to do that Unheard of. Right now you can do it.
Speaker 2:So not just access to funding but, also access to transparency as well. How is that working at an individual level for companies of our startups? Is that I could be investing in this startup that I've never seen? But because of technology and transparency, of me seeing what's going on. I can invest. You get it. The same thing applies to governments as well. Technology allows us to be able to see what the government is doing. There are so many things that 20 years ago were very opaque.
Speaker 4:Right now they're not opaque. Right now they're not opaque.
Speaker 2:I know people think we could go far, but there are many things right now. Government can't just do. It's in the open.
Speaker 1:And that's because, of technology and people are well informed.
Speaker 2:People are well informed. That's because of technology right Well informed and, before you know it, someone has leaked it on Twitter. Someone has leaked this before.
Speaker 1:I mean you could never leak anything anywhere.
Speaker 2:In a bar, maybe.
Speaker 1:I don't know when are you going to leak it to, and the scale is not there.
Speaker 2:There's no scale of leaking it right now. Everybody's watching. Anybody can leak anything. So technology can really help in transparency, not just from a journalistic perspective, but I'm talking about from an infrastructure of how government is run from an infrastructure of how government is run Right, Whether it's from a tax, from a resources, whatever it is how it's run.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But also it's in how capital is applied, because globally, what I have learned is capital is applied in a leverage manner. It's not applied in, I take I'm talking from a huge capital nation states level or even large companies.
Speaker 2:It's not taking like. I have borrowed a million dollars and I'm going to spend dollars. Mostly, wealth is created with leverage. Right In terms of saying I've got a million dollars, I'm going to put it here. It's going to be leverage for 10 other people with their one million million to come in, and now I have 10. My one is still intact, it's leverage and that's how wealth is created, because wealth when we moved from gold standard in the late 70s in the US is now digital wealth.
Speaker 1:Yes. Do you think that was the right move, that now you've mentioned it?
Speaker 2:The gold standard? No, no, let me stay to my lane.
Speaker 1:From a technology.
Speaker 5:Let me stay to my lane.
Speaker 2:But what I mean is if we could debate, but I would rather as a nation we kill the wealth than debate.
Speaker 5:after, oh, okay. Debate from a higher ground.
Speaker 2:Then debate, debate, but you're sticking in poverty. If we all know, it is digital wealth that is moved to leverage right and therefore we need to create our wealth of leverage Right, Not on your hard resource. I've got this amount of gold, this amount of uranium, this amount of gold, this amount of uranium, this amount of this and therefore that is my wealth and therefore question is, my GDP is based on exactly that it needs to be. How can I leverage on that and create what I call new digits? That creates phenomenal wealth on top of it? That is literally not even paper money it is digital money.
Speaker 2:So for me, that, I think, is fundamentally from a state or from a government, that if we get right, yeah, um, you know they're, they're, I'll call. The sky is not even the limit, because the resource base in africa is huge if that was to be used?
Speaker 2:yes, not, as this is the measure of gdp in terms of the jobs I create off it. But how do I use that as creating digital wealth that exists as ones and zeros in my national coffers, in my banks, in my new businesses being created? If I'm investing in your company, mk, I'm investing ones and zeros, true or not true?
Speaker 1:true, I didn't pull the suitcase of money company MK, I'm investing ones and zeros. True or not True? True.
Speaker 2:I didn't hold a suitcase of money. It's ones and zeros. Those ones and zeros came from where? From another place with ones and zeros, with another ones and zeros. That's it, and that capability is what we need to enhance more.
Speaker 1:And also to bring the accountability part of things.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:Now, very interesting conversation we have here because we're almost coming to an end.
Speaker 2:Indeed, I'm looking forward to it. It's very interesting, it's very interesting.
Speaker 1:But you know, I love how you plan your life, Like you started with 15 years, now you're on 25. And there's Vision 2030.
Speaker 2:Okay for Kenya.
Speaker 1:For Kenya, that is Of course you I look at it from an Africa perspective.
Speaker 4:You know other countries also have Vision 2030 and 35.
Speaker 2:Africa has Vision 2060. There are many countries that have Every country literally has their own Vision 2030.
Speaker 1:But Africa has Vision 2060.
Speaker 2:Yes, but if you look at nation states, there's some also that have 2030 and 2035. Exactly so you mean the Kenyan world. We are in Kenya, so let's take that as a context and then maybe whoever is listening across the continent.
Speaker 1:They can borrow one or two things and I feel, to be fair, we have not done it justice and I feel like we are struggling to implement what we can, as opposed to if it was implemented really well, we would not be struggling. We're in 2022, it's just eight years away. What do you think that will contribute to even the tech ecosystem, what you're trying to achieve? Because, at the end of the day, all of us operate in an environment and the environment here has a vision and we have, maybe, our vision. Do you see how maybe even your vision like tallies with these other vision?
Speaker 2:I think, in my opinion, 2030 was very noble when President Kibaki, the late, god bless his soul, started, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 2:And the thing is, it was more, at least at at that point, the way I viewed it right, even when I read the documents it was more. What government is going to? Do there's a lot about government there could be some private sector, this, this, but it was heavy about what government shall do to achieve these things, so it was about the government in my opinion, it should have been flipped the other way around 80% private, 20% government, for the government to be an enabler.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 2:There's no need to reinvent the wheel. The wheel has been done and the wheel of how you create sovereign wealth is known. Hundreds of years of history tell us exactly the book.
Speaker 1:It is the modern.
Speaker 2:It is done by private individuals, companies and individuals, not by government. That is world-wise, in my opinion. 2030 is how many years to go? Eight years to go.
Speaker 1:Actually less than eight. It can be done in five. You don't less than eight, it can be done in five.
Speaker 2:You don't need eight years. It can be done in five. All that Can be done in five Can be done in five, and I believe President Ruter is on the right path. We talk about Kenya right. He's on the right path. He's mentioned critically the role that PPP Private Public Partnership will do in accelerating the growth we. He's mentioned critically the role that PPP private public partnership will do in accelerating the growth we need? Yeah.
Speaker 5:Right yeah.
Speaker 2:That is the way to go.
Speaker 5:Not government.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, yeah, government does not know how to apply capital. The best Mm-hmm, it's private companies who do?
Speaker 5:Yeah, right.
Speaker 2:Government does not have a profit and loss statement, it could have a balance sheet which you can question, but it doesn't understand P&L. It lives off a thousand years of a P&L or a balance sheet.
Speaker 5:So how are?
Speaker 2:you going to hold them accountable to a quarter on quarter result, but private companies do. So we can achieve what we need to do in those eight years with the learnings of what has happened before and apply I mean in Kenya specifically but then apply, I mean use the models that have worked in our private sector. Look at even China. Government played a big hand, but who built all those other companies? Private companies, even if government says I'll invest, but they came as an investor. They sit on their board, but day to day this thing is being led military style by private companies as private companies.
Speaker 2:So I think it's the ability to be able to get that, and I think President Rucho, as far as Kenya goes, is on the right thinking, but then it will not be him to do it, not his ministers. If MK, you and me refuse to form those companies or realign our companies, or put capital in the right way, it's not going to happen, yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, that's very good nuggets we have there, and I think our listeners are learning a lot from your experiences and even your journey in how maybe this culminated to what you are today. But as we part shots, we would like to hear now a parting shot coming from Dr himself, gilbert Sagia, on our viewers and listeners.
Speaker 2:I think this parting shot is a Kenyan thing.
Speaker 1:Yes, we are Kenyans.
Speaker 2:I'm like no parting shots.
Speaker 1:We normally say goodbye.
Speaker 2:You never leave just like that. Thank you for having me. Our put it is that we have our roles to play and everybody's journey is different, and there is no journey that is better than we are all humans on this race. We're on the same boat.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 2:We're all in the same direction, but whatever you do, make sure you're passionate about it. It's very, very tough when you, as a person with 90, 100 or whatever years to live if you're doing something that you're not passionate about. Yeah, so I think it's you know, choosing a If you're doing something that you're not passionate about. So I think it's choosing a path that you're passionate about and making sure it counts. When you leave the stage, there's more people than your relatives are clapping.
Speaker 1:There's one controversial thing that I'll ask. I think I'm curious about this personally. I heard you were charged about this personally. Right, right, I heard you were charged. What does that mean? At Lenana School.
Speaker 2:That I was a. What A charge? What is a charge? I don't know. I'm not too sure what it means by that. Are you talking to what Teddy mentioned? That a charge? Yes, yes, teddy, do you want to talk about this?
Speaker 1:Yes, oh, so in charge of that's what you guys called a charge. So Ah Nice yeah. Yes, yes, yes. Okay nice, nice, nice nice indeed yeah.
Speaker 1:It's nice, nice, nice, indeed, yeah. Okay, our listeners didn't hear all that, so I have to repeat some of it. So, being a charge from Lenana means you go to achieve the greatest in the world. And Dr Sagi, teddy Wari, among many, many other guests maybe we'll have here and some already we have talked to, they are committed to changing the world and I think Lenana has molded you guys to really be a good example in the world in how to change the world.
Speaker 1:And, of course, I don't give all the credit to Lenana. Of course, individually, some of you are the greatest guys that we have around, and it amazes me because everywhere I go in Africa and even outside Africa, I've never met the smartest, most skilled, intelligent people more than Africans. And maybe my friends who are non-Africans they don't know this, but at the end of the day, maybe if you interact with more Africans, you'll realize this over time, and I feel the world is ours for the taking. I feel like, uh, we have more to do, especially in africa, to ensure that we don't go through the same cycle of suffering and neglect, trauma and all that as we come to an end.
Speaker 1:Uh, I would like to thank you, dr sag Saga, for creating this show or podcast or vlog, whichever name you want to give it. It's just having real authentic African conversation, creating history, because our history actually is no year, no other, because we are not the one who are in charge of creating it, and it's an honor to have you. Thank you so much. Until next time, this is Michael Kimathi, or MK if you want, and this is africa's talking podcast, in collaboration with impact masters, and he had the impact master himself, dr gilbert sagia thank you, thank you, thank you for having me. We'll see you next time.
